I can definitely can understand your views John when are making tools to sell. I think if you are making tools to use in your own shop then playing with salvaged steel can add to the learning experience. I really enjoy these projects that you walk us thru.
Hoe ram bits don't have as much carbon as you would expect because they are subjected to so much stress and you don't want them to break. They also have a small amount of molybdenum and Manganese (usually around 2% of each) sometimes tungsten as well depending on the manufacturer. They are excellent steel for what they are made for. I have used this metal in making gun parts a few times and it works great because it doesn't wear much over time. I normally ice quench the contact surfaces and let the part air cool. One thing you will find is that it doesn't forge weld very well. As you probably have much more blacksmithing experience than I do, you probably know more about why that is than I do. Hope this is some help to you. Oh yeah, before I forget, I really enjoy your videos.
@Pntz Englnd Well... Where do I begin...? 😂 I built it from plans I found on the interwebs, but when it came to welding the springmountjointthingmabobber I turned it the wrong way so the springs doesn't pull enough. So now it has like 4"/100mm of stroke, should have something like 20" 😂🤦🏻♂️ Haven't really done any blacksmithing since I finished it, started working on my cars instead. And yes, Jönsson svensk 😉
@Pntz Englnd Jo dom sparar mycket arbete! Och så får man två händer att jobba med. Men bygg nedre delen av "städet" ordentligt och rejält! Jag byggde mitt av 100x100x10 konstruktionsrör och väger 60 kg, men skulle varit bra om det vägde lite mer 🤷🏻♂️
Super Duper Awesome Black Bear Forge! Just bought a bunch of mystery steel myself at .40cents a pound from local recycling yard. Some great finds, tool steel 1" plate and some future anvil stock. Because of your channel we are super stoked to get started on my blacksmith tool making journey. Thank you so much for sharing your time and wisdom John, we are indebted to you and your channel.
I personally find that twist desirable, for me struggling with the neuropathy in my right arm and hand, keeping my arm closer to my body rather than further away, is beautiful for making possible, longer time spent on forging. Great Videos John!!!
Just a FYI the flatter I made 20 years ago was never hardened and it is still fine. Sure harden it if you wish but as a struck tool on hot metal, dead soft is fine. Also, it will get hot when in contact with your work and will aneal more anyway.
For me John, all that I can afford is Scrap & unknown steel. I even built my shop out of Scrap, only because that's simply all that I can afford, heck can't even afford a store bought rivet, LoL. Thanks For all of the Great Videos !
Dont worry, I dont even have a real hammer and the tools like a vise to be able to start bulding something like a shop etc. Not to mention an anvil or a forge :). It's still entertaining and good to know in case I'll have the tools one day.
Thank you for the video. On unknown metals I'v had fare success oil quenching till it stops smoking then dousing in cold water, slight sizzle. It's almost like I'm getting a hardening and tempering in one firing. Cheers, Billy in Canada
And this is why I use S7 for all of my tools. No guesswork and S7 is incredibly forgiving and more than tough enough for hot work even if with less than perfect heat treating. If I ever get an electric oven, I may start using H13 but until then I'll take the convenience of S7.
Loved the two part series. As for the misalignment, couldn't you just reheat the upper portion and twist it into alignment in the vise? Thanks for sharing.
Thank you for the info on the apron and badge I am looking forward to replicating it in the future. Also should you want another badge I know a guy that does them out of copper he Jeff Barret over at Drasons forge
Very unreliable. Most steels loose magnetism at about the same temperature, which only corresponds to critical temp in very simple steels. th-cam.com/video/kkGDBRpJC6U/w-d-xo.html
I'll bet that the guy who sent the 50 lbs of steel to you would appreciate something forged from the left over 3/4" bar, especially if it had your touch mark on it.
They also had very little choice in materials, it was steel or it was iron, so they could learn how steel behaved without worrying about what type of steel it was. Today there are thousands of possibilities out there.
@@BlackBearForge while i agree it would not teach the methods of figuring out how to heat treat an unknown steel. It would show you exactly what you have. I know its not as expensive as you think. Several people i know have done it. I"ll have to ask them how much the spent. But knowing them i know it wasn't much. Thank you for your reply. Love the channel.
I’m afraid it’s not accurate. Most steels loose magnetism in the 1450 range but some have critical temperatures much higher. That work for simple steels like 1085 or W1. But not so well if it is something fancy.
hey John thanks for the tips. I have a question for you about testing. I was wondering if heating and quenching the same test piece in different mediums each time would affect the outcome ? Or is it better to test a different piece for each medium? Thanks!
It might to some small degree, but since this is rather unscientific I'm not sure it matters. For the best results a different piece for every test would be ideal.
possibly, but since it couldn't be broken after the oil quench I doubt it had any cracks. If it were cracked after the water quench it probably would have broken first hit. But that is why I discard all of the steel involved in that test.
The twist is super annoying. Happens to me all the time making flatters and bottom tools. My tools always have a left-handed twist; maybe because I'm left handed? To correct it, I forge the high corners down, turning 90 degrees every blow in between upsets at the block.
The problem with learning on scrap is that it all behaves differently and you never know if you are having problems because of your technique or because you found some odd bit of steel. Learning on mild steel keeps that one thing constant and once you have developed your technique it is easy to tell if a particular steel has its own problems, which many do. But I understand that it is all some people have available
@@BlackBearForge i am not talking so much as a guy like you that 20 + years in the job more as a guy like me never hit hot iron with a hammer to make a tool in my life so if i can take a coil spring and make a usable tool for me even if it takes me 5 trys its a win
Sorry, I thought you were refer to just learning the basics of forging with salvaged steel of unknown properties. Coil spring is actually fairly reliable
That is.good ol'e 8630...maybe 8640....Oil quenching is.the way to go but I'd take it up to 1650, soak at 450 for 2 hours....For all reasonable applications it's all but indestructible...🔱
Several people have been sure they knew exactly what it was. Sadly no two seem to agree. It did get quit hard at 1500, not sure if it needs the 1650. 450 did result in a better tempering
Hey there Mr. Bear...You are correct. Without further testing (spectrum analysis) it's impossible to know what it is for sure..That said, 25 years ago I had a Buddy that worked for the Nebraska State Highway Commission. Occasionally they would break a road breaker bit and he would grab it. Those Bits were 8630. From the video & what you describe from your spark testing and seeing how it looks when you're working it (it has a slick almost wet look to it when cherry red) it sure looks & acts like those old Jack Hammer bits. 8630 is basically 1060 with extra chromium, nickel & molybdenum..Makes lousy knives, great forming tools. (swages, fullers, & wutnots)..Dial down the tempering and it makes great wear plates.. Less finicky to forge than Shock series steel, super tuff stuff when tempered right...Always thought it would make great anvil plates..Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth..*tosses a nickel on the table..Can't help wonder how many feet of snow you guys got down there...
Nice took n toolin boss. Pretty tough stuff ain't it? Did the steel info I sent you help you any for this? Guy I got it from Owens a rock hammer and core drilling and blasting company n ge helped me out with the info I sent in last video. Blessed days sirSir, Crawford out
Not a bit. I just wish it was more reliable to know what a steel was based on its original use. Like car springs used to always be 5160. Now no one knows for sure.
people often seem to overrate the heat treat of steel, this might be due to the constant circle jerk happening around it. in the end, it doesnt really matter here anyways, the hammer needs to be hard enough so it doesnt get deformed by the thing you are hammering on, but thats already it. if you'd care about the hardness of the end result, you shouldnt make it out of an unknown material in the first place, so not having the tools to determine what material it most likely is, isnt a drawback here
I can definitely can understand your views John when are making tools to sell. I think if you are making tools to use in your own shop then playing with salvaged steel can add to the learning experience. I really enjoy these projects that you walk us thru.
Hoe ram bits don't have as much carbon as you would expect because they are subjected to so much stress and you don't want them to break. They also have a small amount of molybdenum and Manganese (usually around 2% of each) sometimes tungsten as well depending on the manufacturer. They are excellent steel for what they are made for. I have used this metal in making gun parts a few times and it works great because it doesn't wear much over time. I normally ice quench the contact surfaces and let the part air cool. One thing you will find is that it doesn't forge weld very well. As you probably have much more blacksmithing experience than I do, you probably know more about why that is than I do. Hope this is some help to you. Oh yeah, before I forget, I really enjoy your videos.
That is an awesome idea for having your oil quench tank setup to be able to easily put out fires.
Thanx John for the tips on how to harden and temper/test unknown steels. Nice Flatter.
Just bought the last pieces of steel to make a treadle hammer today. Your treadle hammer video inspired me to build my own, so excited to get started!
@Pntz Englnd Well... Where do I begin...? 😂
I built it from plans I found on the interwebs, but when it came to welding the springmountjointthingmabobber I turned it the wrong way so the springs doesn't pull enough. So now it has like 4"/100mm of stroke, should have something like 20" 😂🤦🏻♂️
Haven't really done any blacksmithing since I finished it, started working on my cars instead.
And yes, Jönsson svensk 😉
@Pntz Englnd Jo dom sparar mycket arbete! Och så får man två händer att jobba med. Men bygg nedre delen av "städet" ordentligt och rejält! Jag byggde mitt av 100x100x10 konstruktionsrör och väger 60 kg, men skulle varit bra om det vägde lite mer 🤷🏻♂️
Excellent job explaining how to test unknow steels. Lots of great tips. You Rock John!
Don't worry about the minor flaws, gives it character! Really well done!
Super Duper Awesome Black Bear Forge! Just bought a bunch of mystery steel myself at .40cents a pound from local recycling yard. Some great finds, tool steel 1" plate and some future anvil stock. Because of your channel we are super stoked to get started on my blacksmith tool making journey. Thank you so much for sharing your time and wisdom John, we are indebted to you and your channel.
Good SOLID instruction!
Thanks!
Part 3 & 4 in 4 you use the tool you made to make something.
Thanks John. Love the videos.
I personally find that twist desirable, for me struggling with the neuropathy in my right arm and hand, keeping my arm closer to my body rather than further away, is beautiful for making possible, longer time spent on forging.
Great Videos John!!!
Thank you for showing us the procedure to go through to determine how to finish our tools made off " mystery steel".
Just a FYI the flatter I made 20 years ago was never hardened and it is still fine. Sure harden it if you wish but as a struck tool on hot metal, dead soft is fine. Also, it will get hot when in contact with your work and will aneal more anyway.
For me John, all that I can afford is Scrap & unknown steel. I even built my shop out of Scrap, only because that's simply all that I can afford, heck can't even afford a store bought rivet, LoL. Thanks For all of the Great Videos !
Dont worry, I dont even have a real hammer and the tools like a vise to be able to start bulding something like a shop etc. Not to mention an anvil or a forge :).
It's still entertaining and good to know in case I'll have the tools one day.
Great info, I have assorted mystery steel around my place. Being a hobby blacksmith this information will give me a basis to work that steel. Thanks.
Good demonstration on Heat Treating an unknown Steel. Very informative.
Love the fiddling processes
Another great video John, a good shop made flatter, it's going to work just fine and that is the point of the video.
Love this stuff John, so interesting seeing the tests with un-known steel. Gives us some Idea what to do.
Thank you for the video. On unknown metals I'v had fare success oil quenching till it stops smoking then dousing in cold water, slight sizzle. It's almost like I'm getting a hardening and tempering in one firing. Cheers, Billy in Canada
Awesome Job John! Thank You for taking the time to educate us.
And this is why I use S7 for all of my tools. No guesswork and S7 is incredibly forgiving and more than tough enough for hot work even if with less than perfect heat treating. If I ever get an electric oven, I may start using H13 but until then I'll take the convenience of S7.
Thats the way I generally feel about it. But I have found most of my viewers like working with found material
Great job once again John. Nice tips on hardening too. Thanks a bunch eh !
Loved the two part series. As for the misalignment, couldn't you just reheat the upper portion and twist it into alignment in the vise? Thanks for sharing.
Boy it must have warmed up there John you're not wrapped up in a big bundle or you got one heck of a good fire going
We had a very warm spell. Now the snow has turned the place into a mud hole
Seems to be serviceable, John! 🐾🔥⚒
Great videos. Hope the tools made from that steel work out well for you.
It seems like pretty good steel and its easy to forge compared to something like S7
Thank you for the info on the apron and badge I am looking forward to replicating it in the future. Also should you want another badge I know a guy that does them out of copper he Jeff Barret over at Drasons forge
Chances are john it’s a work hardening steel used on demolition tools
Great info John. I have a set of the Japanese hrc files for testing hardness. It's a cheap way to get in the ballpark. ⚒ On!!!!!
I have a similar set Ben,it gives us a clue and helps with the learning aspect of hardening different materials.
I'll probably need to buy some of those, They would be a better option than a regular hardness tester.
@@BlackBearForge wayyyy less $$$$
about 1/20th the price it looks like
@@BlackBearForge yes sir. And good quality of its the same set I have. I have only seen the one brand. Thanks for all you do john👍 ⚒ On !!!!
Great video. How do you preheat the quench oil?
What about testing with a magnet to detirmine the critical temp?
Very unreliable. Most steels loose magnetism at about the same temperature, which only corresponds to critical temp in very simple steels. th-cam.com/video/kkGDBRpJC6U/w-d-xo.html
I'll bet that the guy who sent the 50 lbs of steel to you would appreciate something forged from the left over 3/4" bar, especially if it had your touch mark on it.
Great suggestion
انت معلم
Remember blacksmiths and swordsmith made some of the greatest weapons of all time long before they knew the science of metallurgy.
They also had very little choice in materials, it was steel or it was iron, so they could learn how steel behaved without worrying about what type of steel it was. Today there are thousands of possibilities out there.
Any specific place that you get your hammer handles?
I buy them frequently from House Handle company. They should have a web site
you could always send a coupon off to a lab and have them do a metallurgical analysis, then you would know exactly what it was.
I suspect that would be costly and wouldn't help teach the methods used in learning to work unknown steels.
@@BlackBearForge while i agree it would not teach the methods of figuring out how to heat treat an unknown steel. It would show you exactly what you have. I know its not as expensive as you think. Several people i know have done it. I"ll have to ask them how much the spent. But knowing them i know it wasn't much. Thank you for your reply. Love the channel.
Could just heat it to the non-magnetic range to determine the critical range? Or is that not a universal.
I’m afraid it’s not accurate. Most steels loose magnetism in the 1450 range but some have critical temperatures much higher. That work for simple steels like 1085 or W1. But not so well if it is something fancy.
Where do you buy you a carbide burrs?
John where do you like to buy your carbide burrs?
McMaster Carr usually
Looks like its warming up where you live
warm and muddy
hey John thanks for the tips. I have a question for you about testing. I was wondering if heating and quenching the same test piece in different mediums each time would affect the outcome ? Or is it better to test a different piece for each medium? Thanks!
It might to some small degree, but since this is rather unscientific I'm not sure it matters. For the best results a different piece for every test would be ideal.
Just wondered if it really mattered thank you.
When the piece snapped after water quenching, was the piece partially fractured during the oil quenching test?
Or the thermal shock of being dunked into ice cold water created stress fractures that caused the snap.
@@exzyle2k That too. I suppose one way to know would have been to cut off the test length before the water quench.
possibly, but since it couldn't be broken after the oil quench I doubt it had any cracks. If it were cracked after the water quench it probably would have broken first hit. But that is why I discard all of the steel involved in that test.
@@BlackBearForge Ahhh.... makes sense.
The twist is super annoying. Happens to me all the time making flatters and bottom tools. My tools always have a left-handed twist; maybe because I'm left handed? To correct it, I forge the high corners down, turning 90 degrees every blow in between upsets at the block.
The other side of a pond
scarp steel is best for learning because your not out any cost when you throw it away
The problem with learning on scrap is that it all behaves differently and you never know if you are having problems because of your technique or because you found some odd bit of steel. Learning on mild steel keeps that one thing constant and once you have developed your technique it is easy to tell if a particular steel has its own problems, which many do. But I understand that it is all some people have available
@@BlackBearForge i am not talking so much as a guy like you that 20 + years in the job more as a guy like me never hit hot iron with a hammer to make a tool in my life so if i can take a coil spring and make a usable tool for me even if it takes me 5 trys its a win
Sorry, I thought you were refer to just learning the basics of forging with salvaged steel of unknown properties. Coil spring is actually fairly reliable
That is.good ol'e 8630...maybe 8640....Oil quenching is.the way to go but I'd take it up to 1650, soak at 450 for 2 hours....For all reasonable applications it's all but indestructible...🔱
Several people have been sure they knew exactly what it was. Sadly no two seem to agree. It did get quit hard at 1500, not sure if it needs the 1650. 450 did result in a better tempering
Hey there Mr. Bear...You are correct. Without further testing (spectrum analysis) it's impossible to know what it is for sure..That said, 25 years ago I had a Buddy that worked for the Nebraska State Highway Commission. Occasionally they would break a road breaker bit and he would grab it. Those Bits were 8630. From the video & what you describe from your spark testing and seeing how it looks when you're working it (it has a slick almost wet look to it when cherry red) it sure looks & acts like those old Jack Hammer bits. 8630 is basically 1060 with extra chromium, nickel & molybdenum..Makes lousy knives, great forming tools. (swages, fullers, & wutnots)..Dial down the tempering and it makes great wear plates.. Less finicky to forge than Shock series steel, super tuff stuff when tempered right...Always thought it would make great anvil plates..Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth..*tosses a nickel on the table..Can't help wonder how many feet of snow you guys got down there...
Nice took n toolin boss. Pretty tough stuff ain't it?
Did the steel info I sent you help you any for this? Guy I got it from Owens a rock hammer and core drilling and blasting company n ge helped me out with the info I sent in last video.
Blessed days sirSir, Crawford out
I had several people send steel information on what they were sure it is. Of course they were all different.
@@BlackBearForge yes sirSir, I was just trying to help all I could with info from a guy in the industry. Hope I didnt irritate you sir
Not a bit. I just wish it was more reliable to know what a steel was based on its original use. Like car springs used to always be 5160. Now no one knows for sure.
what is better oil or water ??????
depends on the specific steel. for this steel I found oil to work
t- other side of atlantic? I resemble that
Minor typo - The N is missing from hardening.
Good thing he's a blacksmith and not an English teacher.
Thanks, I have always found it odd that the spell checker doesn't read the titles.
@@BlackBearForge Can you type it into something that has spell check then copy and paste?
that there steel is harder than old boiled woodpecker lips
I’ll take your word for it.
First
people often seem to overrate the heat treat of steel, this might be due to the constant circle jerk happening around it. in the end, it doesnt really matter here anyways, the hammer needs to be hard enough so it doesnt get deformed by the thing you are hammering on, but thats already it. if you'd care about the hardness of the end result, you shouldnt make it out of an unknown material in the first place, so not having the tools to determine what material it most likely is, isnt a drawback here
Love the work, keep it up!