Marathon World Record Drama Just Got Worse
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ต.ค. 2024
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What strikes me most about this is whole discussion is we didn't have a similar one about Kelvin Kiptum's WR on the same course last year, all I recall is how excited we were because he came so close to breaking 2 hours. Someone pointed out elsewhere that Paula Radcliffe's 2003 time is even more anomalous given when it was achieved and it was only 9:47 (from memory) slower than the men's fastest at the time which is a similar gap to that between Kiptum and Chepngetich. In Chepngetich's case those pacers went with her almost to the finish line which I don't recall happening before, that has to give her a huge time advantage. And it's not like Ruth Chepngetich came out of nowhere and had a meteoric rise in the last few years which is the usual giveaway for doping.
Why do people keep bringing up radcliffe? Because shes from the west?
@@pete5691 Look, Radcliffe held the record for 17 years straight. That's pretty hard to argue with.
Shes a doper and so was kiptum
@patheddles4004 It was beaten by another kenyan still. And still the record went down by this other kenyan.
No need to bring Radcliffe whose record has gone down by two Kenyans on the same course now.
It is high time we bring relevance of the the previous Kenyan who held it. Than someone who retired long time ago whose record went down all the years back. Surity is, her relevance is, because she is from the west!
@@pete5691the west are poor losers I recall when Bolt broke one of his many 100m WR a western journalist tried to cast doubt and Bolt just shut him up, full stop
Paula Radcliffe is a beast to still be on that top 10 since 2003
Yeah. Pre-super shoes too!
She was also dirty
@@final_mile_music9713she was also dirty
This is a reall outlier and shoes that marathon running has still time to mature in the size of a world class field.
The longest standing time for top 25 men is from 2014 by Dennis Kipruto Kimetto during the Berlin Marathon
yeah crazy that a pre really checking doping record stood for so long
1) Improved training plans to target world records.
2) Improved shoes technology.
3) Improved nutrition for stronger body.
4) Perfect weather.
5) Perfect route.
6) Perfect pacing strategy.
Haha she been a top runner long time. You don't improve much when you been running 100 miles + weeks for years. 6 min pb In 1 year at that level is suspicious 😂
Regarding 2), I would change that to optimal shoe design for her weight, power, etc. Are we descending into an era where custom shoes can be created to optimize performance???
@@stevenpragan6866 but you don't think a pro runner on that level already done that. Like best shoe training recovery diet ect is already the best she can get😂
@@stevenpragan6866 she used the regular alphafly 3 like the rest of us
Improved pharmaceutical too
She's innocent until I see evidence that proves otherwise.
No one cares what you think, the whole running team in kenya is doping,
I agree. But there many across sport who have tested negative but who have taken performance drugs, as history has shown. So not proven means little to me and I'm sure to many others also. The time she got was within reach to me, I just accept it, but I have questions as the trust is just not there.
@zeniktorres4320 what happened to innocent until proven guilty? If you were charged for robbing a bank, by yout logic I should just throw you in jail since to me you are sus despite the lack of evidence
Armstrong never tested positive either.
I was of the same mind until I heard that answer she gave.
8:32 Three of the top ten finishes are in Chicago. Maybe it's a favorable course
It's well known that Chicago is a fast course but that alone doesn't justify the massive wr improvement, I mean it's been ran on for decades
@@19Ricky9 But it hasnt been run on with super shoes for decades.
Part of that reason is that it's 1 of the courses that has men and women on the course at the same time which means that pacing can occur. I can't find the list but there's only a few courses that have the men and women running at the same time AND allow world records.
It has for the last 5 years, including by Ruth C. Her best time was there. For a very experienced marathon runner, who has won Chicago twice before with these shoes, to improve her PR by over 4 minutes raises a lot of questions.
Non-doping explanations: pacers, drafting, advancements in fueling & training, being able to train harder & recover faster in super-shoes (an overlooked aspect of the shoe debate)
Additionally, Ruth always takes it out hard in Chicago... maybe there's some huge benefit from always running the first half like a madwoman lol
Doping explanation: REALITY & COMMON SENSE
the fact people can have teams pace them make marathon 'records' pretty fucking pointless.
Want a solo personal 'female' time.....do it yourself.
Technology is technology. Same with training and food.
But 7 minutes better than every other time?
Politicians should also stay out of shit they have no idea about. The press have a right to ask questions. To suggest press can't is a scary notion.
@@OM-sb2bd Do you realize how often world class athletes are tested? She would have been caught if she was doping
@@Austizo54I’m not saying she’s doping but this is a stupid argument. So many athletes dope for years and don’t get caught. People are smart and if someone has a good enough team to help them they won’t be caught
@@Austizo54 They aren't tested very often unless they are in a first world country
Kenya has EARNED this skepticism.
As opposed to ummmm...say the United States? Seriously?
@@MrTripLBeeno there’s no other country that’s had more people banned than Kenya
Lol just Kenya, only country with dopers right?
@@Wonderkid44 more than most is the point she should have been tested and so should every winner
but do notice how it is mainly specific Nike running training groups, these groups need whoever is in charge of PED drug running in these groups ban for life from coaching and plans to do the same for the rest of the coaches having this threat. Some are even getting from these groups by having them send after payment to a few who train alone yet are Nike sponsored Runners. Notice how fewer who are from non Nike teams being busted and if they are, these other sponsored runners that are found cheating in Kenya it is in other odd dumb ways like non legal training shoes or going over the line on gray area like amount of Inhaler use as long as it is approved by drugs. My thought is ban these people from coaching along with jail time for the country they are working for/living in who can get the PED use.
Pacing the whole way matters a ton
yea imo its cringe shouldn't make this attempt count as a WR, if this count kipchoge's sub 2 hour marathon should count
Yup. Don’t know why no one is considering this. Was literally the entire race
@@mr.t1417 not really. The pacing did not violate race rules. We do not go after the fact and change rules to eliminate records we do not like.
Kipchoge's attempt had pacers taking turns and breaks. It is completely legal to have pacers that start the race and run with you. They have always had them, just not at this quality. We cannot disqualify her record because she got good pacers. That makes no sense. '
Yes. Having a pacer that can run sub 2:10 for the whole race is a first and is probably the game changer here. However, pacing is legal according to the rules. Having good pacers is kind of like having a good coach. No one gets disqualified for having a good coach.
@@vowuor agree
I ran the Chicago marathon. Let me enjoy being part of history.
You are right, good work man!
wow that’s impressive. right now i’m tryna get ready for a half. i did one last year but i jogged it so this year ima try to race it.
I hope it's clean cuz this would be AMAZING for us women
Imagine breaking your 5km personal best by 26 seconds, then your 10k best by 15 seconds during a marathon. That’s what Ruth did. What would you expect to happen to you later during your marathon race?
GREAT POINT .found new secret sauce I would say
Imagine that! That is fucken awesome!!
To be fair, she did not transition to the marathon from track, so she doesnt have a ton of 5k and 10k runs to her name, and her 5k and 10k times were run at altitude, so not a reflection of her capability at 5 and 10k. This is not the only marathon where her split times are faster than her 5k and 10k PB.
This is the comment people need to read. Says it all.
This would only make sense if this personal bests are from races that she still runs, like Sifan Hassan. As it is, they are just old history.
Thank you for your unbiased coverage of this!
My opinion is that it is absolutely plausible that this record is clean. Ruth had been running very good times in the past, and I think the pacers definitely helped a lot.
If we ackowledge pacing helped A LOT, this would be like running a net elevation drop from start to finish. All in all, the PACERS should run behind her from 13.1m to the finish. Running has been a KOSHER event. Now, we have no scruples but what is right & wrong about racing. Chicago has basically become a dishonest marathon course because they SEE NO EVIL. Next they'll allow and eighteen wheeler to be in front the women.
Lol ok
She ran past world class male athletes
Just imagine if the men were doping. 🤪
@@petergunn648 they are
Not sure World Championship norm is sub 2:07
It happens in every race
That happens in every race, but that's not the point.
Bro idk. I want to believe she’s clean but 2:09 is just insane…and also Kenya has been in some troubling waters recently. It’s weird that the entire Kenyan parliament somehow forgot that.
2:09:56
I hate people like you, the worst of the worst, if shes doping theyre all doping
The average adult reads at a 6th grade level and is unintelligent. So by your own logic, I should immediately assume you’re an idiot?
Wasn't she tested after the race?
@@Austizo54 Yes. All winners are tested. But you can use during out of competition training and stop before competition, so it leaves your system. Not saying this was the case. It was a mind-blowing performance; hence, all the questions.
To the people who believe this record is absolutely clean, let’s take a deeper look at the arguments:
She was wearing supershoes.
Supershoes have been available since 2017. The shoes have only become better by a very very small margin since then. Unlike what many people seem to believe, the shoes DON’T make you 4% faster. They make you about 4% more efficient, which translates into a roughly 1% faster time. Ruth has been using supershoes for the past few years, therefore they are not responsible for her breakthrough.
Chicago is a fast course + there was excellent weather on the day of the race.
Chicago is definitely a fast course and by all accounts there wasn’t much wind. However, temperatures were around 17°C (62°F). Ideal temperatures for a marathon have been found to be around 10°C (50°F) by scientific research (for elite runners). Meaning with ideal temperatures she would have run even faster.
Ruth is only now reaching her peak after years of training.
In 2019 she became world champion and with a time of 2h14:18 run in Chicago 2022 she already had run the 4th fastest marathon time for a woman in history. This means she was already one of the best women ever in the history of the sport for the past 5 years and already at the peak (or at least very near to).
Her best times at the half marathon hovered between 1h04:02 and 1h05:30. A basic, but very accurate method for calculating your possible marathon time (for a (sub-)elite runner) is doubling your half marathon time and adding 6 minutes. For Ruth this would mean that, based on her half marathon time, the fastest she could possibly run in the marathon is 1h04 x 2 + 6 minutes = 2h14. This is dead on her previous PB which she ran in 2022. To run a marathon in 2h10 flat, her half marathon time should be around 1h02, which it is not.
When you’re this close to your peak level it becomes very very hard to improve more. This is where the opinion of (sub-)elite runners and recreational runners differs the most. Most recreational runners don’t seem to grasp the immense difficulty to run a PB when you’re already training your *** off for many years. It is much much easier to go from a 3h30 marathon to 2h59, than to go from 2h40 to 2h30, let alone to go from 2h20 to 2h15 (which, sorry to brag, I’m currently trying to do). The closer you are to your genetically determined ceiling, the harder it becomes to improve even more.
Ruth was already one of the greatest (or certainly one of the fastest) female marathoners in history. For her to take 4 minutes off her PB is just beyond words, which is why so many (sub-)elite runners have a very hard time believing this is ‘normal’. This is simply not what a normal progression looks like.
When you compare Ruth’s marathon WR to WR’s of other distances, both for men and women, it stands head and shoulders above anything we have ever seen, and that includes WR’s which we almost 100% know are dirty because they were run in the late 90’s when EPO could be used full throttle because there was no test for it.
Her manager is Frederico Rosa.
Of all the things I have mentioned, this takes the cake for being the biggest red flag of all. Everyone who is involved in the world of athletics knows the name of this (excuse the expression) POS.
So many of his athletes (dozens and dozens) have been caught doping, including 2-time Boston winner Rita Jeptoo and 3-time world champion 1500m Asbel Kiprop. It blows my mind that this POS is still allowed to ‘manage’ athletes. Anyone involved with Rosa should immediately get an asterisk (*) behind their name. People will respond to this by saying that you can never be guilty by association, which is 100% true. There are however plenty of managers to choose from, so my mind cannot comprehend why anyone, let alone one of the best female runners in history who can basically pick whichever manager she wants, would choose Rosa.
She tested negative after the race. Unfortunately this only proves she had no PEDs in her body at the day of testing. Hardly any athletes ever get caught in a doping test after a race, because you would stop using it in the last few weeks before the race. The benefits of PEDs still remain, in some cases even for months, after last using them. Unfortunately doping controls in Kenya during training camps are by all accounts only done very very sporadically (I know this first hand, because I know a couple of western elite runners who go to Kenya on an altitude training camp). This means it’s very easy to get away with doping.
Lastly, I see many people in the comments saying the questioning of Ruth’s WR is sexist, because when men break the WR they aren’t questioned like this. This is absolute BS. When Kiptum broke the WR there were a lot of people questioning it and with good reason. Because Kiptum died, the critique of his WR also died, because people didn’t want to tarnish a dead man’s legacy.
When Kipchoge broke the WR there were also questions, but it seemed more believable because the progression was much slower. He took about 1 minute of the WR, but that was with supershoes (the previous WR was run in 2014 with ‘normal’ racing shoes) and then he took off another 30 seconds. But he didn’t take off 4 minutes in one swoop.
Also, when Mo Katir, who wasn’t even close to the WR, made his breakthrough in the 5000m went from 13:50 to 12:50 in 3 years and in the 3000m from 7:53 to 7:35 in 2 years, everyone I know in the world of athletics said they were 100% sure he was doping. This year he was indirectly caught because of whereabouts failures and banned. Yet his progression is much more believable than the progression of Ruth.
After all this, I’m not 100% definitively stating that Ruth Chepngetich is using PEDs. It must be absolutely horrible to be accused of something you didn’t do.
I am saying that based on everything we know and have seen in the world of distance running, the chance of her doping is higher than the chance of her being clean.
Make of all this what you will.
@@HLSG37 So well put. Agreed 1000%
So your logic make her guilty? Prove it!
So base from your wisdom there is really no way for us to know if she is cheating or not 100%? We can just rely on presumptions based on previous record and progress? How can we prove that she cheated or not?
@@cuthomas4664 No, not guilty. There is simply reason for suspicion. I see no reason why people should not question her performance
Dear @@cuthomas4664 ,
I am not saying she is guilty of PED use. I'm simply stating all the facts of why so many people are questioning the performance and countering ignorant 'proofs' of her progression like 'it must be the shoes'. Again I'm not accusing her of anything. I've written a long post, so maybe you haven't read it all the way to the end. Here is the last paragraph again:
"After all this, I’m not 100% definitively stating that Ruth Chepngetich is using PEDs. It must be absolutely horrible to be accused of something you didn’t do.
I am saying that based on everything we know and have seen in the world of distance running, the chance of her doping is higher than the chance of her being clean.
Make of all this what you will."
Don't think for one minute that I enjoy reading all the stories and accusations on (social) media about the possible PED use . I love this sport and I hate having to be cynical about all this.
I think it's unfortunate that she's from Kenya but we all know how great pacing can make a real difference. And she's never tested positive. I'm with her on this one, incredulous as it seems.
Asking someone immediately after they break a WR if they’re cheating is top tier hating.
Agree he didn't even try to digest the information. Very unfair and would not be done to athletes from other countries.
It sounded pure racist as well. And looking down upon her.
I am a Kenyan, and I don’t think the journalist’s question about Ruth doping after her marathon world record was asked with ill intent. Such inquiries are common in competitive sports, especially following major accomplishments. Ruth’s response indicated that she was aware of the question's context and the scrutiny athletes often encounter.
@@annmariebusu9924its almost as if systematic, proven doping will make people suspicious.
No it's not?🥴🤡
No one thought Kipchoge could break the 2 hour barrier, but with world class men pacing him, he was able to do so. Just as most distance world records on the track are broken with elite pacers assigned for a majority of the race distance. Ruth had elite pacers during her entire race and it showed just how much pacers can help over the marathon for women as much as it helps for men.
Pleaee don't forget Brigid Kosgei broke her PB by 4:16 min:sec running the world record 2:14:04 in 2019.
The fact that it took 16 year for Paula Radcliffe’s record to go down by 4min, makes it more surprising that someone was then able to break that record by 4 minutes in just 5 years difference.
Also looking at her times she went from 2:18:35 in 2018 to 2:14:18 in ‘22. Then only two years to get to 2:09 😂
@@UltimateToronto She wasnt using pacers in all those times before, neither was the one who held the record, but of course you have to pretend you cant see the things she did to improve.
@@UltimateTorontobut Radcliffe is clean but everyone else must be doped to the gills
😂😂😂
Clearly Radcliffe’s record wasn’t an abnormally at the time …. Right?😂😂😂
@@RunForPeace-hk1cuRadcliffe didn't run like a person that could break 2:30! Nobody questioned her time!
@@RunForPeace-hk1cu when did I say Radcliffe wasn’t doping? Makes this performance even more radical.
They never question Sydney, Duplantis, Jakob, Ryan etc but Ruth 😅
Hmmm...!!!
That is because Robert Johnson is an extreme racist.
Gee I wonder why that is??? Maybe because they haven't had hundreds of their fellow countrymen done for doping 🙄
Racism
Fr, “whenever a world record falls the conversation of doping needs to be had..” no. If that’s true we certainly haven’t been having these conversations when it comes to Western or WHITE athletes.
@@benbwaite9858it’s because they are American, take a look at the 100m women world record
I am a Kenyan. Majority of our athletes who have been accused of doping have found themselves in this situation without their knowledge. Their coaches and agents have been responsible for majority of cases. The local federation is to blame for poor vetting of agents and coaches.
I agree, most if not all of these African athletes never went far in school, most probably stopped after primary or O-level so they obviously don’t have any knowledge or sophistication about the drugs they may be asked to take by their coaches, the athletes are more concerned about the big paycheck to escape poverty because they have very little prospects apart from running
If her post-race testing comes up 'clean' then no problem by me. Also look at her 'bio-passport' and see what that shows since its a longer-term analysis non non-PED conditions. Kenya started an aggressive doping control regime not too long ago so I'd expect it to catch a lot of 'dopers' in its initial implementation, we'll have to see how it works out over the next few years. I hope the Kenyan runners can keep up their high standards of competition and not resort to the risks of PED use.
@crosslink1493 do you know if Kenyan athletes have a bio marker passport?
That’s what I was thinking as well. It feels like they want to have clean athletes that represent Kenya through pure talent and hard work
@anjacoetzee9327 we certainly do
What can I say brilliant brilliant .
Just think, the first time a sub 4 min mile was run would be considered doping in today's culture. No one should be accusing her of anything unless they have proof.
Fair point
Listen & think:
The journalist qustioned and did not accuse her : „what would you anwser those …. who are in doubt….“ ?
@@Tuscany64 I’ve never heard any NFL or NBA or major-league baseball sports analyst ask a question like Ruth was asked after they won a world championship!
"The Kenyan parliment, in Kenya..."
Ok. As opposed to the one on the South Pole?
Ifvyour whloe country is doping, figure it out chucky.
😂😂😂😂
She's never tested positive in her career. Sure, she's Kenyan, but to put that as a reason she doped is stigmatizing and entire country. Not to mention, saying she has cheated is putting a negative around her neck, and we should all know how difficult it is to disprove a negative. So, prove that she has doped, or drop the question.
Lance Armstrong was the most tested athlete in history and never failed a single test. All while he was taking every performance enhancing drug on the planet.
@@Zak_Meents But by that logic we can't watch any sporting event at all. We'll deem anyone arriving in the top 3 as dopers, and base who we deem the winner on our own imagination.
It is the duty of the anti-doping agencies to get it right. Despite Lance Armstrong I will always be on the side of the athlete until proved otherwise, otherwise I have no business watching any race.
@@Zak_MeentsUntil there's actual evidence of doping by her, let's not assume the worst because of who she represents. That's wrong
But when Kipchoge says Kenyan athletes doping is a national embarrassment people have a right to be skeptics
@@Zak_Meentsthat's a lie he absolutely did fail tests, and got retro active therapeutic exemptions. And, had connections to doctor Ferrari
Shoes and Pacing: Ruth paces run infront of her thus breaking the wind and shielding her. And pacing the whole race made her endurance more better. When kipchoge broke 2hr barrier.. the pacing was that he be put in a triangle to shield him and have different runners join from different stations.
No doping the magic of pacing
Kipchoge had a lot more pacers, running mostly in a perfect formation.
@@jimmybondy9450 now you are splitting hairs. Any pacers will help, especially if they can run 2:10 and they stay with you until the finish line.
@@vowuor one of them is actually a 2:04 marathoner. What do you expect?
If she was doping, which she does not seem to be doing, what would he expect her to say? Is there a scenario where the question actually yields useful information? What exactly was the point of the question, if not to bully her?
Robert Johnson is a shameless bully. If she did not test positive, has never been tested positive, and has a proven record of being competitive and winning Chicago severally, then there is no reason to suspect her. She is not fluent in English and is obviously going to have trouble answering adversarial questions when exhausted after the run. There is a protocol for finding cheaters. Why not wait for that process to resolve itself? What is gained by bullying her?
Exactly. I remember during the WC in 2023 women's 100m winners press conference this same reporter asked Sha'Carri a demeaning question. This reporter is kind of a racist.
How is it bullying? All she needed to say was "I'd tell them that I've been working hard for many years and today was my best race ever". And honestly, her English should not have been a problem. If she can't speak the language well, she should've had an interpreter to help. End of story.
If he asked this question of a fluent English speaker you wouldn't even have heard about it, because there's so many valid responses, fresh off the back of such a victory, and validated by a drugs test, that would stop any reporter in their tracks.
@@nsmith131 only she is not speaking her native language and she is exhausted from the run.
More importantly, the only reason to ask the question is to stress and embarrass her. It is not as if someone doping would say "yes I have been doping." The **only** reason to ask the question to cause her stress and embarrassment. Nothing else is gained by it. Given that there have been no positive doping tests, there is no reason to do that. It is bullying.
@nsmith131 what's the point of asking her then if not to bully and annoy her? Why not you go and run a marathon and when you just finish ill ask you stupid qns, see how you feel
@@khalilwen7484 whatever, you're being ridiculous. If she had an interpreter, which she should've done (not saying that's her fault, but someone should be feeling extremely stupid about it), it would've been an absolute softball.
It's not just the supershoes. There are revolutions in fueling, training science, LEGAL supplements (like sodium bicarb and ketones), and recovery modalities. Cycling is seeing similar massive jumps in performance, and the athletes are more heavily tested than ever before. Scrutiny abounds there too, but everyone seems to have forgotten that you can never prove an athlete is clean. You can only prove that a doping athlete has doped. So the manner in which people are immediately writing off Chepngetich and her incredible accomplishment is quite frankly just disrespect for an incredible athlete and the sport. Either believe they are clean until proven otherwise, or don't follow events. Maintain some skepticism, but the outright accusations are disgusting.
👏👏👏
You really think cycling is clean? Seems like a rare opinion
@@SoughI mean Lance was clean, right? Wasn’t he the most tested athlete in the world?
There are also revolutions in doping.
I agree 💯
As for the comment below however there is no way on earth cycling is clean. Pogi riding away from the peloton at will and holding them off is absolute B.S..
I just don't buy the idea that you can identify doping through performance alone. Even with a clean field, you expect statistically anomalous performances occasionally.
EXACTLY!!! And this is why testing is needed: it is an objective process. Bob Beamon broke the world record in the long jump by the greatest percentage of any world record in track & field up until that point, and yet I have not see a single comment for this video that references him. It was an amazing performance! I’ve coached track & field for nearly half a century, have worked with pro athletes, and have never believed that rumor and blame justify casting aspersions on an athlete. The LetsRun founders have been fomenting libelous claims for years. I have seen the most baseless accusations written about on that site to the extent that, in one case, someone made a doping accusation against a highly ethical and honest athlete I coached who was too poor to afford much, hated cheaters and doping, and the claims that she would be spending money on drugs were absurd when she was barely scraping by with enough money for food. Someone looked at her and judged her for her looks because she was lean, muscular, and did not look like a female model. Similar biased statements have been made against female athletes with short hair who did not have exaggerated curves.
She's been #2 all time for a couple years before, +with the wind breaking and pace makers its within the realms of possibility. The wind break allows you to save a lot of energy.
Very true, they are acting as a wind barrier
Wasn't that windy.
Why no Olympics?
Weather was ok but not perfect. Humid start. Difficult middle what it was warmer but humidity hadn’t dropped, then warm, but with lower dew point to finish.
If her ‘Athlete biological passport’ is fine, I don't see the problem. If others think ‘Athlete biological passport’ is not enough to cover all possibilities, they should suggest improvements to the system and not blame everyone. At the moment, it seems to me, without supporting evidence, that some people, forgotten in the past, want to capitalize on this through media attention. I can clearly say that some have already made more money on this speculation than she made on this race and record.
The national testing is just dogshit level. Look at chinese swimmers, almost all caught and got away with it because chinese secret police said a restaurant was contaminated 6 months earlier providing 0 evidence of it. Its a shit show and people who threaten the lives of testers can dope freely.
@@jepulis6674 National testing is irrelevant for all those who compete internationally. It is the mistake of the Olympic Committee and the various sports associations and federations that they allow people to compete without independently verified documentation.
You don't break the world record clean. No one does. Every world record is doped. Storm in a tea cup.
Except the world record for oldest person. That cannot be doped.
That was a "big jump" in her PB...going from 2:14 all the way down to 2:09 ( and her PB was already worldclass ). Seems fishy...but I agree that "supershoes" play a big part in the story and some races (like Chicago) do have a reputation for being very friendly for record attempts. Marion Jones had also "never tested positive" for banned substances - and then we saw how that played out.
If I did that for a BQ, Marathon Investigation would be all over my ass. And I’m slow.
She broke for 5km and 10 km PBs aswell and then her Marathon PB.
Surely, if you're smashing her 5km PB you would be somewhat tired. Nevermind running Marathon.
I think you and others who are justifying the question are mistaken about journalism. Yes, one should ask question but you can’t hide behind ‘people are wondering’. Yes, top names were busted for doping from her country but you still can’t be accuse people openly without any evidence. Cole Hawker ran a huge race to win Olympic Gold. I don’t recall you making a video on ‘doping’ by him. It’s Fair to ask how she ran it but if we are not going to rely on results then why do we believe in Paula’s record? Because its believable as thats the ceiling for women or she is from a ‘clean’ country?
She passed the doping test taken after the marathon. Thats enough for me unless someone knows of a reason that the doping test was wrong or that there is some unknown way to defeat the test.
Lance Armstrong was the most tested athlete in history and never failed a single test. All while he was taking every performance enhancing drug on the planet.
Also my understanding is that top level athletes use PED's during training blocks- they aren't using anything day of the race. I am unsure if they are testing throughout the off season
@@hoborocket6196Athletes get testing at competitions and outside of competition any time of the year.
@@Zak_Meents ok. Since you keep typing this comment that amounts to "I won't believe any evidence, cause any evidence could have been doctored", prove Usain Bolt wasn't doping.
& then prove that Flo-Jo in the 80s wasn't doping.
& then prove that Duplantis and Ryan Crouser aren't doping right now.
All those people set marks RIDICULOUSLY far beyond what their contemporaries managed, & they all did it before Ruth did, so let's start the accusations there.
We've had a shitload of athletes from Jamaica & the States pop for PED usage, so there's clearly a precedent & all these people are doping, right? Or is it just the Kenyans?
this shows a lack of understanding of how performance enhancing drugs work. You can stop taking them weeks or months before your race and still have benefits from them. Some of these drugs stop showing in your system after a few days.
It is not right to ask such questions on the post-race press conf, it humiliated the athlete and the achievement even though the result is impressive and unbelievable. This is right to demand apologies even if time proves that the victory is not clean. It is like a boy crying “wolfs”, once he was right but no one cared
Y so many Kenyan athletes getting bonded.?seem like they r not learning from others.
Kenyan medical scene is a total mess. People don't go to hospital but buy over the counter to buy medicine. A simple cofta for common cough is considered PED. Look at the improvement in 10k in women race! Ruth fair and square.
My country is deeply unserious, I would not be surprised if she was clean and I would not be surprised if she was not. A few months ago the head of athletics was asked in a local interview about doping and he said on the lines, "you are stupid if you get caught doping," make of that what you will. Unfortunately Kenya is undergoing a lot of civil unrest and something that traditionally gave our country so much pride (running) is now used as a smoke screen for deeper political issues. If you ask me if she is clean your guess is as good as mine.
All she had to do to avoid having her record questioned was have a USA citizenship. What people don't understand is that the recent Kenyan doping cases come from the country increasing its anti-doping efforts tenfold. It means the campaign is working!!
It also means….they have been doping a hell of a lot.
Yes, indeed. No video casting suspicion over Sydney's outstanding performances ...
Can we please talk about how sex-coded all these discussions are? Not only do we not get these conversations around men's sport when great records get broken (and if we do it isn't immediate so doesn't blow up like this in ways that could hurt their career), we also don't discount their ability to improve like this. If Ruth were a man, all the discussion would be about the perfect storm of things that lead to her breaking this incredible barrier (pacers, fast course, optimized training and nutrition, super shoes, wind, weather, still having the ability to have jumps in time improvements at the distance, a pedigree, etc.) rather than saying "DOPING." I realize Kenya is being scrutinized, but have Kipchoge or Kiptum had an eye turned on them? No, because we believe in the power of men running. Time to believe in women doing the same.
Exactly. 1000% agree. Thank you for pointing out that if a man broke a record no one would question it, let alone to his face. It disgusts me that Robert Johnson dare get any air time. What a pig. He owes her an apology. There is no proof. He's just jealous and petty. I dare him say that to any male record breaker immediately after their race. What a coward 😡
Except this whole premise that "men breaking records don't get questioned" is objectively and verifiably untrue. You are telling yourself a victimhood narrative so you can feel like a victim....This premise is so off base, and can only exist inside some weird feminist echo chamber. Get out of that echo chamber.
I assume no one at the highest level is clean.
That’s what my friend told me. He knows a college coach that told him that there’s professional athletes in all sports that dope but it just comes down to who gets caught and who doesn’t
@@DavidPaulandBillTyour friend’s coach is an idiot. I know Olympic runners. Doping isn’t as common as fans think. You can make it to the top without drugs.
@@wesleytwiggs7687I know 2 olympic 10000m runners too. I guess they were clean, maybe that's why they missed the final. 😅
@@jimmybondy9450 that’s cool. It just goes to show you how far you can get without drugs.
Brigid Kosgei wore the Vaporfly for her WR in 2019. The Vaporfly has been around since 2016. Radcliffe is the only one on that list that didn't have super shoes.
Many misqouted her statement as just 'i don't now'
Thanks that showing the full answer.
I thought this video did a great job at giving a fair and objective stance/view on the situation. Acknowledging why doping has been a huge issue while stating the reasons how the performance might make sense being clean..without bashing or making any personal attacks. I’m not sure what to think…I’m somewhere in the middle. I also agree with the statement of never seeing this much controversy and outrage over a single athletic performance. Sure, past runners have seen some doping allegations, but I’ve never seen it to this extent with anyone else. At least 75% of the comments I’ve seen on every post/vid have been negative..and very upset and passionate, as if it largely affects their daily lives and has become part of their personality. It’s kinda weird and pretty wild in my opinion. And again, this is coming from someone that understands that some skepticism is understandable
As soon as he put up Chepngetich's marathon PB progression the doping question was answered. At this level of performance improving from 2.14 to 2.09 in one jump so close to when her previous 2.14 and 2.15 performances were achieved is just not believable. If one of the marathon guys I coach did this I would also assume he was doping behind my back!
This ^. Improving 5 minutes is insane.
Are the people YOU are coaching world class athletes? How many championships have they won? What’s their world ranking?
Her best times have been in Chicago. Out of the top 8 or 10 fastest women’s times - 3 of them have been in Chicago
Her race times are a year a part. And in some cases she was dropping 2 - 3 min off her time.
Women are also faster in mixed races - cause they use the men as pacers - check the times of women in mixed races and those in women only marathons.
She had pacers that day cause she had a particular goal. That being said it would mean everything else (fueling, shoes, pacers and the fact that she is fast on that course) is an indicator that she came for a world record attempt.
The fact that people dope is not an indicator that she is doping - otherwise let’s have the same conversation about America athletes- which no one is.
Definitely raised my eyebrows. It’s not wrong to raise suspicions considering Kenya has a lot of doping scandals. She might have been tested negative in her previous races but it just takes one time to change that. Doping is just the icing on the cake. The base of that cake would be her training, pacers, supershoes, nutrition and so forth but that icing on the cake makes a difference of the entire cake. It could make or break the cake.
Did that idiot announcer say look out neil armstrong we have a women whos done something just like you? (not exact words, but close enough)? This announcer knows he landed on the mooon...nearly 60 years ago, not ran in the streets right?
Maybe she meant Lance Armstrong?
I'd like more of a deep dive into who exactly it was that screamed into the mic as she crossed the line and why they thought that would be a good idea. As a casual fan of running that would benice.
yeah me too. it caught me off guard to hear someone scream like a wolf
Dont ya just hate when someone does something spectacular 🤪 awesome running. There has been a lot of unbelievable record breaking runs both in xc, track and on trails - hell 5 people finished all 5 loops of the barclay marathons this year including a first timer who won by a nice margin over the veterans and a female (Jasmin Paris) who became the first and only female finisher in its history. David Roche broke a decades old record at the Leadville 100 this year (his very first 100 miler!) Tara Dower broke the record for completing the AT trail beating the record holder Karl Sabbe time by 17 hours. Buckle up kids and get used to it - its a different era. If the lady was tested and passed then congratulate her and thank God your living to seeing her record and so many other be set.
There is no way it’s legit though pal 💉
5:50 She tested negative immediately after the race. Why are we still dissecting her performance??!?
Doping makes you better during training. Athletes don’t actually dope during the competitions.
Becouse, as a difference to many random accusals after a WR Performance, this one absolutely does not fit into her previous Performances. Kiptums WR was expected. Ingebrigtsens WR was expected. This one wasn't.
If you can't proof she did something illegal you must be very careful with your accusations.
Agree
That's not how you get views.
@@NokiaTablet-pl7vt
Yes, very true
I came here to say this. 👏
Facts!!!
If she had personal pacers, that’s a huge benefit. It’s not illegal. It’s drafting. They do it in auto racing, bike racing, heck they do it in the 10K. She outsmarted the field. Kudos to her!
i think it was disrespectful for that reporter to ask the doping question so straight up. if doping was an issue it takes while to show up
Anyone who breaks a world record should expect intense scrutiny and speculation. Those who react in a defensive manner only makes themselves look worse and possibly even guilty; if they have total conviction they are innocent, they would not feel threatened by people who challenge their credibility. Drug testing would actually support it, so if they are clean they should welcome it (as Paula did). It is bonkers that so many members of the Parliament are demanding an apology - what did they expect after Ruth completely obliterated the world record, a world-wide and unconditional celebration?! (I hope she’s clean, btw)
But American record holders don’t get the same questions just off their run.
They also don’t get tested for doping as often as other athletes despite their history.
If you are going to raise such questions let it be fair across the board. Sydney’s records should also come into question because how is she more dominant than most women?
We have seen these in sports like swimming too. It’s like records are only meant to be broken by certain people and if others do it it’s impossible or they are doping.
@@vanesalusaria7860 So are you saying that others such as Sydney should be challenged and tested more often or that people like Ruth should be challenged and tested less often? It seems like you are suggesting the former, and in that case, we should still be questioning Ruth’s record.
In Kenya, there are men who are capable of running the marathon in sub 1:55:00. they just can't run when they have to put food on the table
Tell them because they just can’t believe it . Some of these people are so poor they can’t afford one meal a day and sometimes train barefoot and could possibly outrun Kipchoge.I just hate that doping has tainted our legacy.
1:55 puts food on the table for an extended family.
@@KitagumaIgen it does but the opportunity to run is not always there when you are struggling.
The runners the world sees are those who get access to these opportunities. Does not mean they are the best
There are whole communities of people (millions) genetically predisposed to being long distance runners and overall athletes the world only gets to see a handful.
prove it.
@@brianwhoreadsobjectiveinfo1122 fund it.
It was a perfect day in Chicago that day. And if you’re a runner then you’d know that a perfect running course , Pacers who you consistently train with and great shoe technology make a world of difference.
“7:30 is too big of a gap to the second place female.”
Courtney Dauwalter: hold my jelly beans…
Kidding. Obviously different sports (road marathon vs 100 mile trail runs). Jokes aside, I hope this was a clean run so congrats to Ruth!
haha, Courtney for president! 🙂
Hassan previous winner and Assefa didn't ran in chicago this year
There will ALWAYS be a phenomenon. When her test support doping, then you will have your answer. If not, leave the poor young woman alone.
Supershoes - look at radcliffe's time if the 3-4% improvement of the shoes is factored in, it brings the time down to 2.10.
Yes there is also a real problem with doping throughout elite sports that doesn't mean records can't be broken by a significant jump in one time.
The marathon is such a unique event that has so many different factors - Weather, Pacers, Course, Temperature. Everything coming together perfectly could make this record clean.
Who knows these days but the doping problem is really putting a cloud over so many records these days.
The shoes already have existed for a few years now 🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️
They all have those shoes
@@chuckd5819 how long does it take the body to reoptimize motor cortex patterns to maximise the benefits of the shoes at marathon distances? When I change shoes my running gait always feels off for a while and no doubt muscle nerve activity and relative development has to subtly readjust probably at least the !% level to balance up the biomechanics especially when fatigue starts to build. I mean shoeless runners run nothing like shoed runners and take much adaption across whole body to resynch up for extended biomechanical performance. How much is the change of wearing non-super shoes to wearing a super shoes like going for bare foot to simple shoe?
@@blengiso where is the improvement in mens marathons? It's about the same in the last 10 years as it was the other 10 years before.
@@jimmybondy9450 Just wondering how long it takes bones and muscles to optimize for new stress profile these shoes create not that is some fundamental explanation, but in terms of men, kipchoge went sub 2hr drafting all the way in super shoes like Chepngetich drafting behind much larger men which seems like a good equivalence.
Who cares if she is doping.....
She broke the barrier of 2 hours and 10 minutes. As long as she is healthy and happy, it is enough.
I so want her to be clean, but Kenya's gotten so many doping bans lately it's hard to fully celebrate
Well USA has had a scare with a national level doping scandal. Can we ignore all USA athletes now?
In situations like this, a sample is usually taken right after the race, just let it play out we'll know the truth soon.
@@Adnyeus exactly. Unless the medical results are manipulated like was the case with the 2:02 guy mentioned in the video
@@edwin5419 he tried to get someone else tested on his behalf, he wasn't successful though
No one was asking Kelvin Kiptum the same questions
There is doping involved. It's called technological doping, aka "supershoes"
its not worth that much time. She ran in these shoes before not to this speed.
I don't remember all this fuss about Kelvin Kiptum clocking 2:01 at his debut marathon and then smashing the WR the year after. As a man, I think this is flat out misogyny.
Also, am I wrong or did she have a moto camera crew in front of her at all times? That's some aero gains right there.
it's a bit like someone going out in a diamond league and getting 9.48 100m. there would be questions.
We can never just be happy for someone
Kenya earned their bad reputation.
Agree
She was tested after she finished, the result was negative
@@garyflynn3762 that's not how it works, she was doping before the time, during her training.
@@yomammaspoodleYou don't know that or have any evidence of that.
Ita kenya fault over 100 runners caught doping ,thats a fact ,she should be tested again
Innocent until proven guilty. However if proven guilty - banned for life 😮
Kenya may have earned skepticism, but they did so by putting an agency in place to remove the cheaters. Kenya is obviously trying to clean up the sport at home...and apparently doing a good job of weeding out the cheats instead of hiding them. We should be giving credit to Kenya for their efforts, not doubting all of the athletes from there that have made it through that testing.
The Kenyan Parliment in Kenya 🤣
At the moment she has never tested positive! If you are a pro athlete and you finish in the top ten you should be tested.
She has been severally and was found not to be doping! She was tested after the race.
@@vowuortested by whom?
@@UltimateTorontoIf you enter into the race it is a must you have to be tested and if there is a world record you must be tested still after the win.
It is the rules. You sound arrogant and ignorant not knowing that. Google has it for you.
@@UltimateToronto race organizers. That is how they catch dopers after the race.
@@kajeffa relax little buddy, I know how it works. But you’re the one coming off as ignorant dubious to the fact that some agencies are corrupt. Specially in a broken country like Kenya just look at the data. I can give you tips how to use google better ;)
this question is completely baseless considering the athlete's personal history, regardless of kenya's track record - reeks of misogyny & racism tbh
I cant let this go without raising the following ...
Why always the suspicion around stand-
out international athletes? It seems being "stand-out" is reserved as ok for Americans? I doubt you'd make a similar video about "stay away" Sydney? It's perfectly ok for her to create a vaste performance gap between her and the rest but as soon as it's a "foreigner" things change ......
i think it's all about these sexist guys. a woman achieving sub 2:10 hit their ego damn it's 2024
Rich coming from Amby Burfoot, a well known cheat - you just need to look at his record to see that.
If she has consistently been improving, and she has never failed a doping test, including the one done immediately after the world record....Why not just give the girl her roses. Dont ruin her chance of cashing out on endorsements. No brand wants to be in the middle of a controversy.
They never ask Americans even though we all know about Salazar.
Ask Americans what?
Why would you ask when we already knew he was doping
My Question: Why was Paula Radcliffe's record disqualified because she was running next to men (pacers?), and now female runners are allowed to not only have male pacers, but also have them running in front of her to break the wind? I missed when they changed the rules regarding world record attempts on the open road having pacers and wind-breakers.
Assefa's WR was a bigger jump and didn't get anywhere near as much skepticism as this is getting. Make it make sense. The only way I can explain this is that Ruth is Kenyan and Assefa isn't.
It's ridiculous considering Sifan Hassan run a 2:13 on her first marathon 🙄
@@jemoh82 The questioning is because of how much she improved her PR, not by how much she improved the WR. But until it says otherwise, it should be assumed to be clean.
@iron___ people improve on prall the time. It's not unheard of. The bottom line is that her previous performances were impressive, and she had the course record prior to Sifan Hassan running her impressive inaugural marathon.
Yeah because she's not from a country known for cheating. Please just use your brain.
@@jemoh82it's Sifan Hassan tho🌝
To race alone, without pacers, is much more taxing. Bane pacers and let's see what all runners can do on their own.
Only time will tell.
Congrats to the young lady for her amazing feat❤️
Sooooo training hard and becoming better is a bad thing now?
Unfortunately yes, very sad.
☹️☹️
If your whole country is doping , its looking bad, they will catch her soom
No, it's simply that the margin by which Ruth broke the WR was so large that it makes one question the fairness of her record (i.e. whether or not she was doping). Usually WRs are broken by a few seconds. She broke it by nearly 2 MINUTES. Therein the skepticism of her natural status lies.
@@randomoneforstuff3696
Yes, I understand what you are saying.
Are you saying her body make up is too high on the male side?.
Dude other elites have been busted for doping and never went anywhere near her time. Use your brain
I wonder if doping during training may be involved, and if it is, whether there will ever be any way to stop it other than constant random testing. There even may be an awfully fine line here, as body chemistry varies between individuals and can be affected by many training techniques (such as altitude training).
I don't belive the journalist would make this question to a european athlete moments after she/he broke the WR... We are comenting a non fact here.
Well Kenya has had 70+ banned athletes this year so…
Robert Johnson has asked European and US runners the same type of questions. So, this is not correct. It is not a racial issue. It is a performance and improvement issues. Everyone who cares about the sport is rightfully suspicious given the time. If she is clean, she should be flattered as the time is unimaginable. However, given it is an endurance sport, the plague of doping will always be an issue. As noted in the video, Kenya has had a spate of positive results casting more doubt on the time. However, until she tests positive or someone in a group she runs with does, I will simply choose to believe it. She has run 1:04 in the HM; so on a net downhill course with pacers and better shoes with supreme fitness, maybe. I simply fail to believe your point however as in running all runners get posed with these tough questions. He didn't say she doped. He simply asked her to comment on what she would say to someone who thought it was 1) unbelievable and then 2) doped because she didn't understand the inference.
An East German or Russian athlete from the 70s or 80s would have been asked if the journalistic culture was the same back then.
That’s simply not true. There’s still a lot of doubt about the women’s 400m and 800m world records by two European women and many people assume that either doping or amorphus sexual identity were involved.
3:41 I'm amazed by the stupidity of people! "People think you're doping. What would you say?" What do they expect... yes I am I took EPO, GH, test, etc? Dumbest question ever
No evidence at all for these claims. Maybe all those seasoned European athletes who hit massive PBs should be called out?
👆👆👆
They should but it's not as obvious as this performance.
- So many more obvious point why she ran so fadt great pacing not just one but two pacers great weather.
Cool weather and advantages wind on the track running south.
@@paxundpeace9970 It was humid and a little warm so not perfect weather which at this point in marathon running is almost a must for a world record. Kiptum had perfect weather last year.
Secondly it's a looped course so any tailwind comes with a headwind,.
Yes they should akso.
Africa has a massive pool of natural, untapped running talent, based and created by thousands of years of cultural running, but being a 3rd world country few have the luxury of exploring this genetic talent in first world competition.
If they ever catch up and have such a luxury afforded to them en mass expect some big shocks. Meanwhile obesity is exploding in the rich countries ....
She was tested after the race and passed the test.
Lance Armstrong was the most tested athlete in history and never failed a single test. All while he was taking every performance enhancing drug on the planet.
@@richardduplessis1090 Regardless whether your system was clean on the day of the race...if you had been doping during your last 3 months of training (and were never tested/caught) - that would be a big deal.
@@Zak_Meentsthe presumption of innocence is the foundation of every single legal system, you know? Anyone is innocent until proven guilty. Btw I'm not sure you're right about Lance
@@Zak_MeentsContinue singing Armstrong.
EPO is undetectable in as little as 24 hours and is sold "over the counter" in Kenya. Do the math.
Who lied to you
It is so wierd because the same guy did not ask the same question to Sydney Mclaughlin-Levrone when breaking her 400m World record
She is African what do you expect from the media.
It will look down at most Africans achievements on the track.
If you watch the full interview he's asking her 'leading' questions. It's like he had a doping story already written, he just wanted some statements or similar that he could use as rationalizations (or interpolations) for his pre-determined viewpoint. Not really a news reporter but a story teller.
Ruth’s concentration was almost flawless ===>>> I believe that we will see another 10% improvement when athletes learn meditation.
I have seen that jumping and running can be very different after learning meditation. So, yes indeed there are many athletes caught on doping but there are many more athletes who learn to take care of themselves and optimize their performance every day ===>>> they do everything possible for their body and mind, literally everything they can and not just on race days.
Her half marathon split was roughly 1 minute off of the open half marathon record. Imagine if a man ran a 58:30 opening half marathon and then ran a 1:59 flat, even with pacers
Kipchoge did pretty much that at INEOS 1.59
@@FooFloyDon…good point, and that was his half marathon PR at the time.
@@FooFloyDon A 1:00 flat half marathon for men is not comparable at all
Testing straight after a marathon is merely window dressing and is almost pointless.
The doping when it does occur, is during the preparation phase of training.
Was she tested during the preparation phase?
Whether guilty or not, there are also red flags that cannot be ignored.
Her times going into the race were ordinary; PBs for 5km and 10km en route in a marathon are, as far as I am aware, almost completely unknown. Running 10km faster than the Olympic Games 10km on the track is extraordinary and probably unprecedented.
Her behavior at the end of the marathon was also amazing.
Running up and down as she did suggested she could have gone faster.
If she is clean we need full details of when and if she was tested before the marathon.
Those supporting Chepngetich claim it is racist to even query her performance and even make the utterly absurd claim those doing the questioning are guilty of misogyny.
These people deal in emotions not facts.
We need the facts.
We saw "other worldly" performances by Ma's Army in the 1990s.
Those performances were proven to be too good to be true.
I would like to know if and when (exact dates) Chepngetich was tested.
If not, I would say, like Ma's Army, her Chicago performance was too good to be true - and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact she is a Kenyan and woman..
Lance Armstrong never tested positive
That is actually false. He tested positive at least once, and pulled some insanely sketchy maneuvers to bury it.
His complete blood count was different, but it was of such a character that they used the cancer medication as an excuse.
That's American for you. Carl Lewis never tested positive, and Marion Jones never tested positive until someone gave her up. Flojo never tested positive, but it killed her. So America has its ways.
@@Dqtube Right: hematocrit > 50% wasn't considered a doping positive, IIRC. The EPO test came later.
@@danielhall1473at least once? That’s our point. The point is, just because athletes get tested all the time and it comes back negative, doesn’t mean they’re clean. Based of Armstrong, it actually can be assumed that they probably test negative a majority of the time even when they’re doping
Yes, as USA earned that reputation after its elite sprint runners and bikers were banned for doping over the years. Well, you might as well suspect other mind boggling world records in many events, starting from 100 metres. Did the video narrator say "hundreds and hundreds of athletes caught"? Well, that must tell you that there's great progress in anti-doping investigations. We must question the lack of such 'successful' discoveries in other countries. In the meantime, Kenya will continue reproducing world champion marathoners, year in year out. Go, Kenyans! Sisi ni mabingwa! Hakuna matata!!!
She is a champion 🏆. She was not tested positive so she was clean. That's all that matters. Go Ruth
can you say jealous? envious? she pushed hard - look at her RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"super" shoes most certainly played a VERY minor, if any, role in this. There were thousands of runners who had "super" shoes on who did not run within an hour of this time. I ran 2:19 for the marathon back in 2007 without "super shoes" and I hope Ruth's time and performance is legit. I never thought I'd live to see a woman run this fast. 2:09:56 is an elite time for a male, for a female to run THIS fast, is absolutely absurd. I do want to believe she is 100% legit though, until she tests positive, she and her performance, are.
She is innocent until proven otherwise