Does plastic affect stability? Plastic Stability Comparison: Part 1 | The Plastic is in the Details
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ต.ค. 2024
- How do discs fly in different plastics? What makes them fly differently? The Plastic is in the details as we test 6 different molds in Part 1 of our comparison test!
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We need an engineer to build a disc thrower for consistency.
*several engineers working together to solve the consistent speed/rpm/nose angle/wobble disc testing robot that can be used for this as well. ;)
We already have one. His name is Calvin Heimburg.
In all seriousness, the machine should be called a “Heimborg”. Seems fitting
I'd be willing to contribute if it was open source.
Its being worked on th-cam.com/video/gnwIiw3Rz3I/w-d-xo.html
This is why a brick and mortar store with lots of selection, a big used disc section, and a generous trade in policy is so important. There just is no substitute for throwing discs. I've tried soooooo many discs building a bag that works for me; finding discs that fit my hand, arm speed, release tendencies. etc. I've also had discs that I rely on change with new runs. Losing a valued disc and then finding that new replacements fly nothing like what you need, regardless of wear, is very frustrating. I now stock at least 3 of every disc/run that I bag, and religiously search my local shop's used section for cheap versions of those same discs.
Great content, by the way. I just found your channel and am plowing my way through your videos. Good Stuff!
Love this content. The parting line description outtakes are hilarious.
Feel like an important point was missed with those Jarns - its not just the PLH, but its the actual wing itself - on the glow, you can see the convex/angled part of the wing actually ends lower because the blocky/vertical part is more thick. The PLH usually works because the vertical parts of the wing are the same thickness (or close enough), but its actually more about how quick until it becomes vertical I think which the Jarns show.
This is one of my favorite yt videos i have ever watched. THANK you for nerding out and getting into the deeper stuff. I learned so much.
Very nice video! I'm always interested in learning about discs and what might impact their characteristics.
I think the PLH is pretty reliable within a mold, but when talking specifically of the molds I throw, I feel like I can tell how they fly based on the stiffness of the plastic and amount of dome, both related to plastic type at least to some degree.
The one thing I push back a bit is the misconception the baseline plastic thing. Most of the baseline discs I've tries, have indeed started as more overstable than the premium counterparts but they beat in to more understable state in no time. So if you want a flippy version of a mold, I do think the base line will be the easiest way but you need to give it just a bit of time.
EDIT: What comes to varying flight numbers, I don't think it's worth it. Making things even more complicated will just make the beginner even more confused. As long as the flight numbers are based on subjective evaluation of individuals, staying on per mold basis is accurate enough. If one day we get a robot that can provide reliable and repeatable testing results, then heck let's have individual disc specific flight numbers.
Best disc golf analysis channel right now
Thanks!
It seems like the effect of plastic type on flight is different based on the manufacturer. It would be cool to see a designated episode for each company to examine the brand-specific differences.
As an example, you could use the Aviar, Roc, and Thunderbird, then obtain a version in DX, Pro, Champion, and Star to compare.
Another idea is to take a specific disc in a certain category, like the Wave from MVP, and compare just that disc in every possible plastic available.
This seems like a cool series with tons of different avenues to explore!
Kastaplast: I saw on Reddit, comments that they are all over the map, with the _same_ plastic. I commented that I suspected it may be due to the fact that either they are not pre-warming the molds before making a run, resulting in discs that for the first hour or so, are going into a mold that's gradually going up to operating temperature, or, they make different molds for different plastics, and sometimes an employee forgets to change the mold between runs.
I do own 1 Kasta disc, the Kaxe-Z in K1soft, and I'm satisfied with it, but after reading people's feedback, I'm hesitant to buy any more. I'll hold off at least until there's buzz that they got their production issues sorted out and have adopted better practices.
I think K1 is the most consistent, K3 can start out very overstable, and K1 Glow can be a bit flippy. I think the shape of the disc is the big decider, I have a super flat, slightly puddle-topped Jarn that I love, but I've thrown domes noes or softer ones that I really don't like.
By the way, thanks for diving in to all our videos, saw lots of comments across a bunch, hope you're enjoying it!
What a great video! Nice job man, learned a lot!
There are a bunch of factors that determine how overstable a disc is but I have found the most significant one by far to be parting line height. I measure parting line height a bit differently than what was done in this video however. What I look for is actually better defined as the ratio of wing height to shoulder height. The Jarns tested here are a perfect example of how PLH and this ratio don't always directly correlate. The K3 Jarn you tested had the tallest wing and the shortest shoulder while the Glow Jarn had the shortest wing and tallest shoulder of the three. Base plastics usually result in lower parting lines because of how the plastic cools. K3 isn't exactly a base plastic but it does seem to be an exception to the rule for some reason. Level of wear, disc weight, dome, etc also have an effect on stability but it's surprising how many discs I have that are lightweight and/or pretty beat in that are much more stable than others I have of the same mold simply because they have a taller wing and shorter shoulder. More distance for air to travel under the disc and less distance over the disc = slower air on top and faster air underneath and therefore more stability and less lift.
*2 things about parting line height* : if a plastic expands (or contracts more) than another, or has more dome, you'd actually have to measure how much is above and below a parting line, and not just set them down on a tabletop. That'll show you the bottom height, but you don't see the top - you need to measure they height too (and subtract the bottom number).
*Second thing is molds* : some companies appear to have different molds for different plastics. I heard that MVP may have different molds to compensate for differences in shrink rate of the various plastics, in order to keep them closer to numbers. Of course, they don't always succeed, hence why an electron volt has different numbers than the others (or bother, as it's the budget model).
for example: 9:31 parting lines may be in the same spot, but clearly, there's something going on here. one wing's upper and lower edges are far lower than the other. total height may be different as well.
another example at 13:42 with the meta Essence versus neo.
My question for companies like Elevation is how accurate are their numbers? I think numbers are mostly fine as is because they're only a rough idea generally. Every disc flies differently based on YOUR arm speed anyways.
I was waiting for the kasta comparison, and a järn at that! Found exactly the same results between mine.
The more information we can look into and start to understand will just help me be an informed buyer, and I do think that they want us to buy after all.
You’re doing gods work.
You seem like a man of science, could you make a video comparing the effects of deet and other bug repellants on plastic and stamps? I'm always reading about how deet will eat discs or erase stamps but I haven't seen any hard evidence.
What an amazing analysis. Thank you for all the research and work! Also, Neo Essence is 💴!
Great video as always.
1. So you said more aerodynamic means more understable and more blunt means more stable. You probably want to say that differently because there are 12-14 speed, extremely aerodynamic, extremely stable discs. What you said about the parting line matters more. Look at the heat vs the PD or Anax.
2. You said that the less dense flight plates of mvp, especially fission, are MORE stable. But MVP rates fission as LESS stable. I have a fission Volt that is rated less stable than the neutron, but it’s way more stable than the neutron, which is what you were saying about less dense flight plates.
Ultimately shape matters. The plastics used may help to determine shape, but that shape can change between runs, or even between discs in the same run. The parting line height, while useful in helping to determine differences in shape between molds, it ultimately only one thing to look at. The shape of the upper and lower rim should be looked at as well.
My experience from working as an injection molding engineer for a while seems like disc golf uses a "mold" as really the designed shape of the disc, when really a mold in a production environment is two opposite halves of steel that cost many thousands of dollars to make precisely, I call "tooling". If I were to have a completely dialed, on the nuts process run on an injection machine, the parting line would not change if I run it in two different plastics run with the same tooling. Now, why do you see there are two different parting lines in the same design of disc? Likely, and not knowing how each manufacturer production layout varies, they run two machines side by side one in champ plastic and another in DX for example with two different sets of tooling. The DX mold for a sidewinder for example could have had thousands of runs on it for many years now, so they have a different newer set of tooling with a different parting line because you can vary where the parting line is in the design of the tooling, not the process because again these are very large pieces of steel that come together tighter than you can imagine (literal tons of pressure applied). A consistent process is what gives you consistent discs. That's kinda why we see so much variation because nothing is run in a vacuum at room temperature 50% humidity in one plant. That's also the fun of disc golf, the variation at least to me is an enjoyable challenge of finding discs you like and work for you.
Premium plastic all the way!
Consistency is great so you don't freak out when you lose your (slightly less stable, first run, signed, color shifted, misprint innovacraft roller disc)...
But what I really care about is that the disc keeps it's flight characteristics. Trees, rocks, chains... I don't want those things to alter the discs flight.
Great education on disc flight. Thank you. And I think that manufacturers should change flight numbers based on plastic. If flight numbers are supposed to mean anything, they should be accurate for each model of disc. And if plastic is enough to noticeably change the flight of a disc, it's effectively a different model. Disc shape isn't everything after all. Where it gets tricky, I suppose, is disc weight. That's probably a step too far as the differences (maybe?) aren't as noticeable.
I've always understood it as; premium plastic keeps it's stability longer, before beating-in ( champion/metal flake, star, g-star, pro and finally dx. Innova plastic types.) not that they are necessarily more stable or less stable out of the box.
What monster animates the disc flying right to left?
Look back at glow jarn. The bottom of rim seems to be shaped more like the gote almost. I had a friend that had a Falk that was ridiculously over stable. It almost looked like they used a stahl bottom with a Falk top plate. I don’t know if that could happen, but the glow jarn in the video looks to have a different curve on the bottom compared to the other two.
I should have looked at comments first because @pmantle talks about the wing height, and the glow jarn has a much fatter and lower wing height.
Do you have videos of you throwing disc or just reviews and others throwing?
I have a few local guys who throw in videos, in addition to myself occasionally, it is a group effort. Shoutout to Max, Caleb, Daniel, and going back further, Rich, James, Lucas. Huge help!
Well known fact...kastaplast glow is usually the flippiest...Kaxe is a good example..
In short, yes. Premium plastic is denser than baseline, starter plastics; the denser the molecules fit together the more over-stable it will be (more hyzer).
nice vid
Let’s talk about course elevation too - all the flight numbers change several “flight numbers” - Playing at sea level vs 3500 ft vs 6500 ft vs 9000+ in Colorado…
Solution? Grip it and rip it. Does it feel good? Throw it :-)
@1:45 "angular momentum"? I thought it was 'gyroscopic stability'
It seems like OS discs are less affected by parting line height
I think your conclusion contradicts on Fission. You stated putting higher % of weight on rim makes Disc more overstable. However, MVP takes opposite approach and gives less stable numbers.
Oh I completely agree that they do typically say they are more understable. I think that has something to do with how quickly they beat in. However, in our testing, the Fission Proxy was nearly as stable as the Eclipse Proxy and we also recently tested a Fission Envy, which was quite overstable, similar to the Eclipse one we tested as well. We're testing another Fission disc in Part 2, the Fission Volt, so check that video out to see if this theme continues.
So what you’re saying is, just pick a disc that has the numbers you want ISH, has a color that is easy to see with sick art, and then just learn how to throw it?
LOL.
I wish parting line would have never been used. It's more about the wing height than it is that little line.
yes i found myself yelling at the video many times
The PDGA should establish a standard for flight numbers and testing, and maybe make a "Iron McBeth" machine to test flight numbers.
Iron McBeath, love it!
Discraft should change the fifth number based on plastic, imo. Everything else could stay the same.
I have to admit that I lost my Discraft undertaker which I say the flight number were pretty right on . I bought another undertaker in the exact plastic . And it thrown like a vulture . Pissed Me off I have a vulture in my bag already. I needed a undertaker not another vulture. Which still left a gap in my bag and 24 dollars poorer and still need another undertaker.
So far I have learned that I know nothing that I thought I knew lol
What disc is that Ohio script disc behind you?
Clearly wrote this before watching the entire video. Nevermind.
It would be so much easier to know what discs we would be able to throw if the numbers were more accurate to a specific disc.
I hear all the time, how certain discs had 'runs' that were less stable, or more stable. It would clear up the fog around this issue... Just sayin'
I think its perfectly reasonable for manufacturers to indicate what to expect from certain plastics, if players can develop this collective tribal knowledge over time on how we know certain runs or plastics do X or Y, manufacturers can do that to.
The BERG is laughing at partinglines
You could have talked just about destroyers and had about 50 different flight characteristics. 😂
Technically plastic has 0 effect on stability.
The cooling changes the disc shape.
The only time it changes stability is weight distribution
I think we need to hold every disc company to the same standard as elevation discs if one company can do it they all can the problem is large corporations stop caring about the customer and more about the money made
Short term no it doesn’t. Long term as far are holding its true flight and stability, yes. But in and of itself the plastic doesn’t make a disc more stable. It’s all about the specific run.
Why do they suck so bad at making discs