ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ต.ค. 2024
- It's not the 1990s any more. HEMA is dead, and HEMA killed it.
This channel was created at the request of students who wanted a handy visual reference for techniques, and in order to help us make new SwordFriends to trade whacks with. Come fence with us! We routinely help long-distance students as well, so if you have questions or constructive commentary, please feel free to ask and/or jabber away below. :)
Our School! wingedsabre.ca...
Instagram: @wingedsaberhistoricalfencing
I've received numerous offers of "let me know how I can support." ANY of these would be wonderful.
Patreon: www.patreon.co...
Buy A Book!: www.amazon.com...
Buy us a coffee!: ko-fi.com/irvi...
Snag Some Swag!: www.redbubble....
(As an Amazon affiliate, I earn from qualifying sales. This is like getting a tip on my books that doesn't come out of your pocket, and helps me to continue funding translations. Thanks in advance.)
![โรงเรียนตอนตี 2 โคตรหลอน..!! [โรงเรียนไดเม่]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/2MAEMwqVYh8/mqdefault.jpg)
So basically HEMA was successful in resurrecting European swordsmanship and now we have new schools developing their own systems.
I am new to swords/fighting and I see this as we have "Bruce Lee" type styles now. Meaning people are mixing different styles together, because it works well together. Which is kinda cool.
It very much is, and I have no objection to it at all. I saw a guy playing an epeeist on FB, and for lulz he did double-circular-sixth-and-fleche. Is that in the manuals? No. Is it an absolutely viable move, say, from bicorno? Why yes, yes it is.
@@russmitchellmovement I agree as masters back in the days would constantly try to learn new techniques & better ways to fight. Fiore certainly traveled & learned where he went. Matt Eason also mentioned in one of his saber vids that a certain master from 1800s(?) Wrote a few books of saber fighting & the later books he wrote are quite different in teachings from earlier books as the master learned & changed his opinion of what worked best.
My only caveat would be to say that if you were going to mix styles in lineages to be honest about it and be able to say where you picked what technique from because I do think there is value in knowing what a particular style from particular region look like and how it differs from other styles of the same period of different regions.
But being accurate to history isn't always the easiest 8n modern practice; especially since we will never have all the knowledge from a single master or lineage
@@asa-punkatsouthvinland7145 Yup. At some point, I have the burden of choosing to keep the three living lineages I learned completely separate, at the risk of losing one of them, or to come up with a blend that preserves them. Which best serves my students? Besides, obviously, transparency. And my Feldenkrais Method/Body Mechanics work also clearly flavors my approach to the source material. Interpretations are going to vary wildly, and transparency is how we gotta work.
johannes liechtenauer literally said he wasnt done developing techniques and asked us to continue developing upon it
And he was more of a collector of Techniques anyways.
What’s funny is in 50 years the living lineages will be called old school versions of the next generations techniques.
It's no accident the new guys call us dinosaurs!
Well said! I've had similar collisions between my Traditional Japanese and Chinese Martial Arts Practices (that are focused on preserving those traditional arts) and "modern" martial arts that are pragmatic and evolving. There will probably evolve a similar clear division in HEMA between those schools or individuals focused on preserving vs what you describe as "living lineages" (awesome term). I'm a pragmatist, but still appreciate my traditional training. And I do love studying those manuals! Thanks for this!
There are fencers in my group who refer to their style as "competitive longsword" and that they don't stay loyal to any manual, mainly learning practically and from other longsword fencers who can beat them.
It's not the way I prefer to study but it put a big smile on my face because I thought of this video.
We had this same split in IPSC combat pistol back in the 80s. We called them gamesmen and martial artists.
That really is a pretty interesting parallel. Now it’s a mess between IDPA, USPSA, 3 Gun and “tactical timmies”.
Soldier of fortune became a game over time.
Excellent video, I agree entirely. What once was HEMA/WMA/Hist. Fencing is now 'The history nerds' and 'The Sport Sword crowd'...and most certainly people who try to blend both together...not that there is anything wrong with any of these approaches, but I think the community as such could sometimes use a little more intellectual honesty and clearly state what they are doing while at the same time start accepting that we are *not* all walking on the same path anymore even though we all come from (or want to go into) the same general direction. The world is big enough for more than one group of people with a fascination for non-contemporary weapons. Cheers from the woods!
There is a third group which often get missed: the casual hobbyists who are not too interested in competition and not too interested in reading and interpreting the sources. They are just happy to swing swords and socialise with people who have a similar interest.
I see the problem here with admitting to being one of those groups that you will likely shy off potential students.
The HEMA-Scene is still very small and some clubs fight for every member.
I live in a part of Germany which is very loosely populated, so getting members for my club is hard.
So I try to fit my teaching as broad as I needed.
I admit I try to fit in the sport approach as well as the historical approach because I think both parts are important and I try to engage with pupils that want to fence in a tournament and try to teach as well as I can. In the end sword fighting might have been also sport back than. So why shy away from sport and there lies the point: why shy away from modern movement? We evolved our understanding of the human movement system since the times the manuals were written.
HEMA should be both, a sport and a field of study.
I think a lot of techniques are still to be recovered, because they aren't fully functioning in a tournament situation. I think we are far from the end of HEMA but we think we have tried out everything and succeeded with it, which in my humble opinion is wrong.
As long as not every technique is applicable in a fight situation we haven't successfully recovered the techniques in the fullest meaning.
I am definitely more on the side of experimental archaeology and more inclined to use the depictions and translations from manuals and treatises. But I do think that it would be nice to compete some day. To take classes and get more involved. There’s just nothing like that for me where I live so, I study and drill alone.
I know this isn't the thing they wanted me to focus on, but I always use an Oxford Comma.
I am a passionate defender of the Oxford comma. She wears that to troll me. :)
@@russmitchellmovement so it's a swordsman Renaissance
eyyy my school just competed in that messer tourney you mentioned. I wasn't able to make it out but the boys did well! To your point, I really do agree. I also don't think it's a bad thing at all. I'm glad to see the art growing and incorporating aspects of many different arts in the search to produce the best fighters. It's what makes this particular martial art so exciting and engaging!
I think that there is as you say a great value in developing a modern sword martial sport, like Kendo for the Japanese. But the problem is when people assume that when they've produced the "best fighters" in modern tournaments, they've gotten closer to the actual swordfighting. The reality is rather the opposite, as competing for points in a modern gym in modern shoes and clothing is nothing like fighting for your life on the slope of a very dry grass field in the very slippery medieval shoes. HEMA tournaments look more like olympic fencing with a longsword, because this is what works best today. But then, we shouldn't call them "HEMA" tournaments but something like "Longsword/Messer/whatever sport tournament".
HEMA is evolving and not dead. Since HEMA doesn't have the fencing masters like 'modern fencing' it has created their own equivalent to it. I still believe HEMA reflects the time period where some schools only teach this style while others don't. Not all of us are here for the historical aspect, but want to learn how to use a longsword or whatever. I am currently writing a HEMA training manual. No, it's not easy, but I feel it can applied to any aspect of HEMA training based on what I have been doing here at our local club.
So many ppl look at the sources as the be all and end all. never stopping to think that the masters might have intentionally left something out, or just couldn't fit it all in.
Like trying to learn Wing Chun from those books by O'Hara publications in the 70s.
I await your efforts on your HEMA book.
Isnt that exactly what he said tho?
@@manuelm.99 This is why it's important to watch the video and not just read the thumbnail before commenting. 🤣
@@jbertucci I am working on such a manual.
@@jbertucci the creator of this channel, russ mitchell got a book about basic body mechanics for martial artists. Might wanna check that out on amazon. After that it depends on which style you wanna learn. For hungarian sabre, this channel and the book "hungarian hussar sabre" covers the basics of that.
Hey, My company still creates microfilm and good copies are in many ways superior to electronic! You can read microfilm with a magnifying glass and a candle, digital formats change. That said, my first manuscript experience was a bad FAX of Mair. But it was SO glorious to see it!
Ha, I'm a JSA guy, but I was around on Swordforum back then and recognize alot of those names. What crazy times those were. I've lost touch with alot of the HEMA guys I palled around with back then, but I'm glad to see that community is still moving along!
Interesting discussion. I started working on the edges of WMA in the 90’s to make my escrima better trying to learn the lessons the manuals were teaching. I have spent entirely too much time on this conundrum and my buddy still has to slap me out of it sometimes lol.
Hema had some really goofy stuff earlier on and now I believe has grown into an absolute beast of a martial art due to struggling over this. Can’t get better without being willing to lose to learn, can’t really learn unless fighting to win. It’s science and art as fast as you can lol. Dog brothers say “higher consciousness through harder contact”.
Every different aspect of training brings artifacts with it. Balancing both sides idea of keeping it real may be the best way to keep it real? Maybe.
I will say the quality of ability , in the hema community, to cut and stick with sharp pointy things has blown me away in the past few years. You guys have done a great thing.
Ah! You really spoke out of my heart by mentioning how modern fencing footwork has nothing to do with medieval Italian longsword! XD
Salute, Sir!
I dont do Hema but I did traditional archery for quite some years. And we had a saying: "The guy who hits the target is right." Back in the day they sure as hell wouldnt risk to lose a duel only to do their footwork correct according to their manuals.
@@corneliussulla9963 I see your point, but with it you're basically supporting the reason why modern olympic footwork shouldn't be used in the context of medieval longsword: it will kill you, as doing huge steps and frequently retreating backwards is a huge danger when you're not on a nice, flat gym floor like we have today.
I'm not good at archery, but let me try to give you an example in your domain of expertise:
If only hitting the target was important, surely you should only do archery with modern sportsbows with aiming help, isn't it? And when someone tells you that's not traditional, you'll answer: I don't care, the archers of old would have used it if they could.
Except: I've heard from an archer I know that practicing with visor instead of instinct will not at all prepare you to shoot at a movng target. So, practicing in a modern way (olympic fencing footwork, aiming help on bows) is not only not traditionnal, it also will not make you learn the same things than our ancestors had.
Fantastic video. You've put voice to feelings I've had transitioning from Fiore to more German styles and seeing the marked difference between the attitudes and teaching styles of the clubs. Viewing the more tournament-focused groups as new, living lineages is a great insight.
I think sword fighting is cool. I'd LOVE to see people innovating new techniques and strategies!
Interesting discussion. I like reading later 18th and 19 century sources but the older stuff from the Lichtenauer sources or even George Silver are just so much harder to read and fully grasp. Lekuchner is another good example of that , it is full of techniques and variances of those techniques applied to several different contexts ,not to mention trying to wrap your head around the pedagogy of someone from the 15th century is sometimes just mind numbing. The scholar side of HEMA is an art all in its self and much respect goes out to the dinosaurs who paved the way.
I've noticed a lot of HEMA is being videod and competed on perfectly smooth plastic or wooden floor.
This is an abstraction of the sport that modern Aikido also suffers from.
For fairness, there should be a number of prescribed arena types for competitive HEMA that includes cobbles, wooden planks, sand, mud, grass of different lengths, and a given relative placement of obstacles similar to Modern Tag so that it can be trained for but also means competitors have to have a degree of situational awareness and footwork beyond their immediate opponent
I do all sorts of martial arts. Armed and unarmed. And I’ve stopped calling it HEMA for I realised that I mixed everything and did some new things that weren’t there before. It’s no longer historical, it is my attempt to make myself as effective and skilled with every weapon I come over. It may have started with HEMA, but for me that was more of a gateway to something I had to make myself.
one thing I noticed about HEMA is that things from manual hurt more than techniques we use for scoring hits
In club we have me and other dude with anger issues and we sometimes start being too competitive and shit hits the fan, and we hit each other pretty hard, especially if we both wear nothing but gambesons (more like padded jacks). Sometimes teacher has to stop our fights when it becomes too obvious, but what I noticed is that's where large moulinets and weird military saber parries come to play, I swear when we try to make each other hurt, these shoulder+elbow+wrist attacks require book defences and attacks look pretty historical, I think that it might be somehow related to these attacks in books being actually deadly and we as modern people think too much about deadliness of a sword? If I just want to make dude hurt I'll start wide attacks, long lunges to stick my point into his ribs, do dangerous feints getting hit to my arm but giving a good blow so they feel it. What I am thinking is, it looks for me these manuals were made as if people wore some kind of light armor or light hit to arm won't stop an attack. Because I can imagine that these attacks that actually hurt (and they are often same as in manuals) would go through some padded jack if it was sharp, and sometimes being hit is okay if their hit is "modern HEMA score attack" and yours is some polish saber leg switching cross cut
Like when they lose their cool and you know each attack would sting and you couldn't sleep on your shoulder for a few days when it hits, brain becomes foggy and you believe book block #4 would work and it does work, it works when you're about to get hurt and not when it's light HEMA score hits
I think it also comes down to stopping power. A lot of hits you see in competitions would make nasty cuts, but nothing that will stop the other guy from retaliating in kind. Those experienced in warfare understood the value of making someone incapable of fighting by striking hard. Swords deal vicious damage but they aren't magic and someone in fear of their life can fight hard despite being injured. I've cleared a lot of land using a machete and it gives a good sense of what blades can and cannot do.
Diversity provides vitality; negates dogma.
Every master who wrote a manuscript created a new lineage. Shouldn't modern fencers do the same?
I did not say they shouldn't!
From one dinosaur to another: You are right with most of what you say. I would disagree slightly with your statement that we are now having living lineages connecting to the old ones (not us… the 15th century ones). Apart from that, you might remember a lot of discussions that this evolution was going to be inevitable.
Just like the money-making schools, the focus on tournaments etc.
Personally, I think one can not understand HEMA properly if one doesn't dabble in the manuscripts but that might just be me being a dinosaur.
Thanks for the good video!
I think there are good arguments that can be made on both sides. Obviously we lack a direct connection to the practice. But we have reasonably good comparative practice to source materials they left behind, as opposed to early days when it was clearly "martial arts necromancy." Fun discussions.
I disagree, lots and lots of good fencers focusing on the manuals around. At least here in my area. Maybe America is a different story. The point you trying to make is way to generalized in my opinion.
Honestly. HEMA has reached a point where it needs to split. HEMA should be the nerds like me who stuck to the books to try and recreate the fighting from that slice of time. And a new name needs to be made for people who aren't interested in history and just wanna fight.
I don't think that's strictly necessary: our club benefits from having a long-distance student who thinks the manuals are interesting, even if I"m the only guy who ever really looks in them locally (granted, as a living-lineage guy, that may flavor how my club works). The guys we share space with are *very much* a tourney-longsword crew, making use of lots of modern stuff (ladder drills, modern footwork, etc etc), but it's very common to find one of their fighters with a nose stuck in Von Danzig, for instance.
It's a really, really big tent, and I don't think we need to silo ourselves just because there are differences in how we have sword-fun.
I'm
definitely more interested in looking into manuals than most people in my club, but I still partake in tournaments since they are a great way to truly test interpretations against fully resisting opponents. So I don't think having such a hard divide is a good idea.
HEMA is now Olympic Fencing with medieval/renaissance weapons.
I saw somebody competing in longsword on an actual piste, so you may be right.
Where can I get that anti-Oxford comma shirt?!! 🥰
HEMA is still A sport, sports have rules and how A sport is played changes due to rules. Where somebody teaching combatives in this era doesn't teach sword but they can and do teach generalized bladework. Philippine martial arts come to mind. Ironically A lot of the techniques taught for centuries about to bypass armor probably still work versus modern ballistic armor. Most people are not wired to play the role of "Active Research Historian" that group will always be small, lamentable but ultimate pointless to linger and stew on it.
hema itself is not a sport, is a martial art, if you talk about tournament ok, you can practice hema "as a sport" but itself is not a sport
@@vonakakkola Every single martial art is a sport. Even the most traditional of martial arts have sport/competition. Not having that competition and drive directly harms a martial art's credibility and usefulness.
@@hysterical5408 "every martial arts has competitions" doesn't mean the martial art itself is a sport
when someone practice hema, their goal Is not being the best at competition without caring about how effective would be irl (in the past if we talk about historical arts), while in olimpic fencing the only thing that matters is competitions
'Now we have living linages from reconstructions of early medival martial arts'
Fixed it for you 😁
I don't do a whole lot of swordplay anymore because it's not my focus at this point. I have a month or two of formal hema training under my belt, and I used to study and spar with friends fairly often.
The way you described being a book worm reminds me of my journey with karate. I spent years reverse engineering one kata with historical manuals, books from the turn of the century, videos of chinese martial arts that share a lineage with karate, etc.
I learned a lot, but in the end I decided that it's not worth the trouble for me personally. It was the old masters jobs to preserve their styles, not mine.
Now I do bjj. I like it because there is no universal curriculum, and what works works.
I like dabbling in the history of martial arts just for fun, but I decided that if a martial art requires me to be a historian first to make it work, then I'm not interested.
Thank you for kicking that in! It really is *not* for everybody. And some practices get modded over time because of practical matters, too, not high art. Like the karate school I knew of which added a turn into their form. Everybody discussed its merits, the why, the how, the applications, until a guy visited his school and discovered "oh, it's a small room, they have to turn in order to keep moving or else they run into a wall."
@@russmitchellmovement
I have a friend who's equally as interested in history and combat. I definitely think it takes all types.
HEMA is dead. Long live HEMA.
I recommend lots of basic sparring first, then start making sense of manuals.
The manuals were written to improve people who already knew how to fight.
I'm not sure what to think about it. On one hand, I like that the efforts of H-EMA were somewhat successful - it brought attention to HEMA, put people at some starting point. And now we heave "real", new lineages - if the masters of old were still alive they'd probably still try to polish and improve their styles. Exacly what modern "EMA" is doing.
On the other hand as the time progresses I feel that fencing will keep evolving towards winning tournaments and not trying to kill/stay alive. Until we arrive at modern Olympic fencing - with thinnest, lightest and longest sabres one can get because the objective (one could say "the point" :) ) of fencing will be not to kill and stay alive but to touch the opponent. Moving it away from HEMA and possibly opening it to being lost again.
Work your club culture so it suits YOUR needs!
I think I agree with your argument in many ways, the pull between historical versus competitive styles is significant, but also want to point out that we see differences in interpretation between historical sources in the Liechtenauer tradition. Lew, Danzig, Ringeck, and Meyer are all clearly in the Liechtenauer tradition but their interpretations are not all identical and that is okay. Its unavoidable as well. In the long run, good teachers with sound interpretations will always float to the top.
I wish the competition scene wasn’t so distracting and that fencers were more interested on learning than winning but Ive met people and this how people do. There is no benefit in being the old man yelling at the clouds…
@@indeswma4904 there is absolutely no problem with being a competitive club that wants to win fighting with old swords, and there is no problem with being a club that wants to dig into all the plays and understand the system as deeply as possible. One of the things I know from French martial arts with savat is that you have two different kinds of ranks as you progress as a fighter. One of them is intended primarily for competition and the other one demands competitive skills, but has additional ranks of learning which depend purely on technical merit and an understanding of the system at a level that competitors themselves don't necessarily need to dig into. I would not at all be surprised down the road if we wound up with that kind of a distinction for HEMA at large
Speaking of authenticity: imagine it like someone reconstructing 21st century English based records of me speaking it.
I'm an Austrian and thus a native German speaker, who was taught English by British people but got corrupted by American media and my colleagues at work of whom only a minority were actual native English speakers... Could I still improve my English? Sure, but on what region and subculture should I base it to simulate authenticity?
And at a certain point it stops being reconstructive and simply how many cool songs can you sing in English...
I remember when the dogfight over the HEMA name came . I still just call it Western Martial Arts (WMA)…. On a side note I am ok with my particular style dying with me. Most of which are not any of the WMA “Cool Kid” weapons.
As a fellow "never stopped being an obscurity guy," I totally get you.
Which style is that if I may ask?
I got into what is now called HEMA in around 1999 or 2000. Never really went to tournaments and only a few weekend seminars.
But yes I've seen this change through watching vids from tournaments & sparring vids.
Another change I see is during sparring a reduced ammount of grappling. Yes it's often for safety but it's still not very accurate.
I've always practiced mostly alone but spar with anyone I can. Ive been doing my own interpreting since before I got into HEMA by interpreting old French stick fighting pictures & then adapting it to swordplay; at first for LARPing then more serious swordplay. Of course I'll listen or look at others interpretations & critique it change my ideas if I'm convinced if not keep on my way.
I have one issue with this, while also agreeing that it's a great thing.
The living lineages where competition drives innovation or confirmation of good technique, are NOT teaching sword-figthing. They are teaching fencing. The fact that in competion there are rules and the fact that you don't actually harm each other less-still kill each other (all being well!) changes everything. Double-hits being a prime example for which one can try and correct but with limited effect.
To each their own hobby! My local tournament punished doubles harshly, but I'm comfortable saying "I teach fencing as a fun means to improve oneself" rather than with any notion of 21st century martial application.
@@russmitchellmovement Yeah fair enough, and I am certainly not saying it isn't good, or a ligitimate way to spend your time. Especially as most people are both more skilled and fitter than me and would beat me whether as a sport with rules or in a genuine duel which lets face it, in modern times would be psychotic.
But I think it's a good idea to learn from and know what is from the orignal sources and what isn't, if one's interest is in HEMA the martial art as well as HEMA the sport, so it doesnt become lost and we have to start all over again.
Just gonna let Master Liechtenauer answer this:
When masters practice fencing that does not take measurement into account, then it does not
is not really about the serious art of combat, but rather about school fencing, which is somewhat
profitable through training and practice.
But serious fencing aims to be much simpler and more direct, without any further loss of time or
hesitation, as if following a thread or as if each element were measured and weighed.
When a man wants to cut or stab another who is standing there before him, then it is
there is no need to indulge in fencing that relies haphazardly on luck and goes for too much
away with numerous slashes and thrusts in front, behind and to the sides, while only one
shot is enough. On the contrary, he must strike directly and immediately at his man, on the head or
body, as close and as quickly as possible, as soon as he can reach it, and with vigor and
a measured speed.
And it is better for him to deliver one slash or thrust rather than 4 or 6, which would
would slow down, thus allowing his opponent to come before him easily. In fact, the initial blow
gives a great advantage in combat, as you will hear later in the text; and thereupon Liechtenauer declares that only 5 shots of exceptional power are useful for the
initial fight.
Learn to put the true Art into practice in the most succinct way and with the
greater speed possible, as it must be done; and let the drumming and innovations
in the care of the dancing masters who, moreover, strive to imitate the art of Liechtenauer.
TLDR: There is theory and practice, practice goes to the simplest and most effective, the rest is window dressing
My school focuses extensively on the historical manuscripts and reproducing the techniques shown. We don't focus on tournaments or outside pedagogy. Hema nerds!!
I just taught 2 classes on Jude Lew. I just love the early manuscripts and what they can teach us. Yes, I know, I'm an uber HEMA nerd.
Do the moves in comp
@@bigtreecombatacademy2927 It's really useful to have somebody with a sports focus to help you pressure-test and spot things in your underlying approach that may be hindering application, yup. So long as each side knows how to actually be useful to the other.
I am year into military saber fencing and starting to have my moves that work well for me, now I see systems as good introduction to fencing, but they're only a part of skill, we have larp players who's been larping with steel and hard weapons and they are very good fighters with simple snipes and basic attacks with awesome range management, timing and strategy
There are thousands of very good fighters out there, and not all of them train the same way or come from similar backgrounds, yup.
A good video! I agree, the original lines are dead and lost. What we have here are modern day martial arts which refer to the old fight books. Have you read Eric Burkart's take on HEMA?
I am not familiar with the gentleman. Is there a link or a book reference?
@@russmitchellmovement Hello! Sorry for the slow reply! TH-cam didn't inform me about your reply! I tried to post the link here, but TH-cam didn't allows it. The title of the publication is "Limits of Understanding in the Study of Lost Martial Arts" by Dr. Eric Burkhart!
*Quietly sobs in messer*
I know, dude, I know. For over a decade I was the only guy in the western hemisphere with a copy of Leckuchner. And even THEN I couldn't interest people in trying it. It'll eventually get popular, I'm sure. How, I don't know -- if you do, hmu and I'll do anything I can to support.
When i started practicing HEMA in my city, i searched more about on youtube, and all i found is lots of old people saying the HEMA is dead, and i don't think you understand that it's a so-so support for people to start doing this.
Plus, how about places were is no manuals and manuscripts? I live in central Asia and here is no other sources other than your trainer and internet.
What I am saying by "hema is dead" is that most places are now becoming living lineages of study as some people become teachers and certify other teachers -- NOT that you cannot yourself also learn and study.
But how could anyone be against the Oxford comma?
This is kinda what happened and resulted in modern day olympic fencing.
It’s started out as dueling but kept evolving and as it got safer and more rules are implemented more people that just want to smack people joins. And as they got better in competitions more people join and the focus started to shift from what was done back in the days to “how can we do better in the current system”. Some might consider it as fencing “has lost its way”, it very well might have.
But I struggle to find any situation where doing things the ancient way whilst the circumstances have evolved so much would be optimal in any settings other than reenactment.
Historians can be historians. Duelists, soldiers aren’t trained by historians. They train like soldiers and athletes, they care more about winning than form.
So no, I don’t think HEMA or Olympic fencing is dead or has lost its way. They’re an extension of the spirit of what were taught. Attempting to force a manuscript that is long out of time on modern iterations is, in my opinion, where the meaning is truly lost
I'm not sure what to think about it. On one hand, I like that the efforts of H-EMA were somewhat successful - it brought attention to HEMA, put people at some starting point. And now we heave "real", new lineages - if the masters of old were still alive they'd probably still try to polish and improve their styles. Exacly what modern "EMA" is doing.
On the other hand as the time progresses I feel that fencing will keep evolving towards winning tournaments and not trying to kill/stay alive. Until we arrive at modern Olympic fencing - with thinnest, lightest and longest sabres one can get because the objective (one could say "the point" :) ) of fencing will be not to kill and stay alive but to touch the opponent. Moving it away from the true spirit HEMA and possibly opening it to being lost again.
@@adseri That's why we have an obligation to our own living lineages to preserve some principles and traditions. I'm certain, a lot of groups will be willing to preserve the idea of clean debilitating cuts and self preservation in their own bouts. The more tournament oriented groups probably won't care about that as much, but they will ultimately be constrained by the tournament rules.
WMA STEGOSAUR CHECKING IN!
I don't know about fencing, but only fascinated with the existing arts. However, I like the culture of the Chinese keeping both the traditional and non tradional Chinese martial arts - Kung Fu and Sanda. Perhaps it would also be great if both Hema and Modern Western Fencing are kept alive.
Fencing itself is an archaicism -- that's part of its attraction, so yep.
Insert vague armour archive reference here
Armor Archive is Dead. Armour Archive killed it. (Actually, it was GlenK. That dick. ;) ) JeffJ
This is an extremely well-reasoned argument, and while I was a little skeptical at first, you brought me around!
I feel like what you describing really is hte natural evolution of HEMA. When you think about it martial arts are constantly evolving and changing. Swordsmanship in the 16th century was different from swordsmanship in the ancient times, if anything by adapting and evolving instead of staying ridgid is the more authentic way to fight as that is historically what happened.
This means I can watch your videos, learn from it, open my own school and start my own lineage right? 😊
Who would stop you?
Personally, I don't think that the recent trajectory taken by HEMA is a bad thing nor a betrayal of the art: after all, those same masters who wrote the treatises studied were trying to adapt and improve what their predecessors had done before.
While sticking to the original sources has its place, academic value, and works well for reenactment, in my view a martial art must be living and adaptive to be functional as such. My main perplexity lies in "adpative" being only seen as scoring points in tournaments, perhaps prioritizing hits that in an actual combat scenario would not incapacitate the opponent. Whenever I practice a technique, I like to keep in mind the question "would this work in a real duel or on the battlefield?" to keep the historical aspect of HEMA. Otherwise, especially for those like myself who're more into sabre, rapier, and smallsword, there would be the risk of just becoming olympic fencing with heavier swords (nothing against OF, but since it already exists as its own discipline with its skillset, I believe that HEMA should remain distinct).
@@ROMANTIKILLER2 I agree. The last thing I want to see is historical fencing becoming a sports league. Having several perhaps, sure
I was also around and arguing back then on SFI and similarly assumed it would go this way as interpretations started to take root. I also figured any tourney rulesets would eventually standardize and you'd see the historic systems distill down to only what's ideal in a tourney (i.e. a recreation of modern fencing), so we'll see how that shakes out.
Oh that has already happened, just look at the absolute disdain with which the schnitt is held within the longsword community. Nobody in the tournament longsword community trains them and I have met a shocking number of longsword fencers who literally don't even know what the word means.
@@russmitchellmovement Yeah, a club I recently joined did not count one during our "king of the hill" style freeplay, much to my surprise.
So basically HEMA is dead but that’s not a bad Because we’re now evolving the art
HEMA as the dinosaurs practiced it is basically dead, because the next generation up insists on fencing *success* as a litmus test of interpretive quality, rather than "this is what the text says. I am unable to apply it yet, and am working to understand why." Both are completely legitimate points of view resulting in very different styles of practice.
@@russmitchellmovement what about those who fence those moves in comp ?
@@bigtreecombatacademy2927 They're often the same people, the question is the approach. Is the subject of the endeavor sporting behavior, or the historical source? For the dinosaurs, competition and bouting is a resource to try to help understand the manual. For the sportsman or sportswoman, the manual is a potential resource to aid competition.
For example, I teach Radaellian lightsaber, and recently found myself trawling through de Frias' footwork and cross-comparing it to Charlemont's work for options that would help us deal with extremely agile competition that is primarily "naturalists" and relying on strike-and-void tactics. Since that game disallows thrusting and has no hand-guards, the Radaellian material is simply a resource: playing "glowy stick tag in the dark" is the focus.
The 1595 is soon doing Dussak in Seattle
Yes... very much - Yes.
Thank you for so eloquently articulating HEMA's evolution.
"Contemporary" swordsmanship has arrived.
Fantastic discussion! Thank you!
Can you have a discussion on the benefits and drawbacks of different rule sets?
I'll consider it, but I'll be honest. My opinion is worth a lot less than that of the ladies and gentlemen who pressure-test hema rulesets to see how and in what ways they can be gamed.
At RKDF we've always taught everything with the understanding you are going to do this for real(regardless of how likely). Therefore what works is what's right. We still teach the sources but we don't "force the play".
I had an eye roll set up but it turned out to be reasonable.
Back in the day people were holding Ochs like Finestra, since Cod. 44 A 8 wasn't available which describes the edge alignment in more detail. I remember the arguments well. In our own club we differentiate between what we call "Classical" (for lack of a better term) and "Tournament" fencing. Everyone is trained in the Classical style (i.e. as close to the source as we know how to do), and those who wish to adapt that to tournament fencing join our Fight Team for focused training on that goal. I train in two living lineages of Japanese swordsmanship (Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu and Kageryu Battojutsu), but thinking of my students being a part of a living HEMA lineage is a strange thought to me. But you're not wrong. Long live HEMA?
I haven't read Von Danzig, so don't know that specific difference, but I remember when Meyer hit and everybody's krump suddenly changed dramatically. Yeah, interpretation never ends.
I enjoyed your input on the evolution in the practice.
Good insight.
Thank you, Sun. I originally had intended to avoid "talking head" videos, and have been surprised that people find them helpful. If you have anything in specific you'd like to see in the channel, please let us know.
@@russmitchellmovement white belt or unbelt stories are always entertaining.
Though im starting a mixed style program soon so the living legacy remark really struck me.
@@EclipseStyle We put in sparring videos of people who are *Absolute newbies* for just that reason. People need to see that they're not alone struggling with "and I coordinate all this stuff HOW?"
Palm change!? Did you practice Ba Gua Zhang?
Yup, helped me recover from a life-threatening case of toxic hepatitis. I should have croaked a LONG time ago. Haven't trained it in a long time seriously, though.
Russ, Kat, more fantastic content. Thank you.
Do you believe back in the day they were "risking to lose a fight" just to fence according to their books?
I was there. They were absolutely willing to lose in order to pressure test their understanding of what the book was saying, and they were very serious about that. The general consensus was that if something wasn't working it wasn't because the book was wrong, but because something was lacking in the understanding.
So where can I get myself a modern fencing manuscript? :D
Very likely to cooperate on producing one later this year with another gent whose experience is considerable.
I’m personally offended by the “anti Oxford comma club” shirt. Let’s fight over it! (Said tongue in cheek)
I give her SO MUCH SHIT for that shirt. :)
Pick your weapon, let's goooooooo
@@KatLaurangeArt next time you’re in Texas we’ll do a black powder pistol and Sabre match, like the genteel folk used to do ;)
@@russmitchellmovement keep it up, for me
@@connordillon6493 Texas is a mighty big state, pardner 😄
It's not your hema. Hema has many aspects. And you can't tell that we are not doing hema because of some let's say small variations on footwork. You like history, others like to fight. You study hema they practice hema. Plus whatever small differences and interpretations that fighters prefer to do against the manuscripts because they work, they worked for sure back then and i bet they would have been doing the same. We don't do any scientific experiment about improving technics or footwork or cuts etc. We improve by handling swords and by fighting. They were doing it for real for whole their lives so i bet they were doing similar things
Tell me you didn't actually watch the video, without telling me you didn't actually watch the video.
Curmudgeon Caveat! Sport Fencing (historic or not) is not MARTIAL ARTS! Moderns train for the tinniest hit (a point is a point), rushing in every time with absolutely no regard for their own mortality in the fight (after all the weapons are bendy and dull, and they are wearing gangs of protective gear). If people who were fencing historically fenced this way, they would not live very long, good or not. Alas and alack.
Yes, because they are playing a game. A well trained fencer could easily treat it as if it were life and death and perform admirably.
What is Micro fish? 🐟
Obscure archaic technology.
Microfiche is old, yeah.
Hey, Messer is alive and well here, I've just had to train everyone I know who fences Messer.
And more power to you. That's how sabre was for a very, very long time.
@@russmitchellmovement For me that's how all medieval weapons were here until I started teaching. There was only pseudo renaissance fencing, and occasionally highland broadsword. It takes someone to get people into it right?
i have no hema clubs in my city but after finishing university i want to go on another city that i know there are a lot of hema clubs, and before i can start practice this are you tell me that hema is already dead? sad
You could falsify my hypothesis by founding your own club while working directly from a manual rather than seeking out and established instructor. :)
I would argue that even back then when people were reading the manuscripts and trying to decipher what they said, everyone was having a different take on the material. So... HEMA never lived, it died with the masters of old. You guys just made a Frankenstein monster and all you did was to place some body parts on the table and let everyone else try to stich them.
I just want to fight for competition as close to the way they did it. I don’t see the difference between the two. Given the context, if you told the original practicioners “you will fight to live”, would they worry about perfect technique? No. They would do it as well as they were taught. But I do love learning the history. I hope HEMA doesn’t become “MOF with longsword” but can keep increasing/refining competition while keeping the effectiveness of the original techniques (I study Fiore and Badi if you don’t get where I’m coming from). I just wish a competition-focused school near me. I’m still going to call it *all* “HEMA”. I don’t care what others call it as long as it keeps the spirit of the word “HEMA” which to me encapsulates all of what we do, all groups included. It’s much easier to explain than “living lineage…” or “medieval MMA” with an entire world you’ve never heard of. It’s like speaking Greek to anyone without an open mind even if they take lesson or two. People often seem to have the idea that swords are antithetical to the modern world (in the US) because they’ve never seen machete fights or learn anything about medieval history, or often even martial arts past highschool. But that’s another conversation.
technically its still HEMA, but as he said, its living lineages. if they are only fighting to win a competition then everything will change, the fighting style will change to become more adept to score points, the weapons will change to be more adept at scoring points, even the protective gear will change to become more adept at scoring points, just like it happened with Olympic fencing. as it is right now people are still using historical martial arts, but they are evolving to be more functional instead of trying to copy a old book that is extremely unclear.
Offtop: where do I get a shirt like this?
Which? Mine's a pretty bog-standard dashiki/west-African shirt. I've worn them for ages bc I had a Ghanaian pen-pal in high school, and they're super-practical in Texas' climate. If you mean Kat's, I'll have to ask.
I understand your tears. Veg tan swine and put it in a press to dry it welcome to leather armor no oil required beeswax will do fine but always press form your leather armor. It is nearly as effective as Pickle Barrel. Also for making cloth armor the finest Linens potassium and oil my oil is a combination of linseed and lanolin my linens are Egyptian of the highest thread count. I have been experimenting with fresh combed fleece sheets unwoven not even threaded nor yarn one per book is amazing at cushioning blows, well the lightly soiled and oils will turn a blade that has just begun to lose its Edge. I think these are the old recipes that have been lost my pork Shields will stop a 30-30 bullet at 40 yards. I have also used bamboo ribbon in my cloth armor. Then again I'm testing recipes from many different cultures, none of the recipes are complete so I have to do some guesswork.
I don't get the connection, but sounds like you're doing a lot of experimental archaeology that I kinda recognize from over the years...
@@russmitchellmovement you research martial arts I researched the armor. FEMA has given cloth and leather armor a bad name it actually worked quite a bit better than Hema declares you're just building it wrong. I find by making a wooden mold and then tanning a pig Shield and then cutting it to shape well it is still wet and then heating up sand before throwing it into a sack made of denim and then laying that sack on the piece of wet tanned leather before adding additional weight for the pressing while using beeswax rather than lanolin to waterproof the leather before pressing it. The hot sand will drive the water from the freshly tanned leather and the heavyweight over the top of the sandbag will press the leather and you end up with a much better leather armor that will deflect most blades including Spears of course the English Longbow can pierce the leather but rarely travels more than an inch or two in this can be resolved with the beeswax. But you can't use cowhide you have to use the back of a pig what they call the shield it is a much more dense heavier leather and when pressed to 110 while it is being dried it makes a remarkably strong and durable Shield such as one would wear as a breastplate so much so a 50 lb bow can barely even scratch it even with needle Bodkins. A sword is basically just going to be deflected and a spear will either chip or scratch at best I use piping hot sandbags and barrels for my form the barrel is filled with play that is dry and I have a 3/4 ton play brick that I said over the top for weight I use the sand to steam the leather dry. I've used many different processes including crude oil beeswax and ceiling wax the crude oil works just fine but I prefer using the beeswax although it does make a slightly more flexible leather crude oil makes a very strong weather and I believe that's what they mean by black and the leather use crude oil on it when you boil it and stand straight out of the skillet
@@russmitchellmovement as far as the cloth armor is concerned I like to use between 150 and 180 count six layers of oiled cloth with Ash rubbed in and four layers of dry cloth per book and I separate the oil floss from the dry cloth with a very thin summer weight wool only fresh combed so it's more of a padding much like one would used to make yarn with or to make a quilt with. The oil floss with the sit rubbed in is amazingly good against crudely sharpened blades and the wool padding helps to disperse the pressure I will use one layer of oil yeah one book with oil one book all dry for a lightweight gambison for a pure cloth armor wrap I'll use four books one oil and three dry wool padding between each book sometimes with bamboo and sometimes with baleen boning. And cloth armor works well against broadheads as well as works well against being sliced with a short sword. Yes it will stop and axe blade but the axe will crush you anyways. Bodkins have a tendency to blow right through cloth armor.
@@russmitchellmovement by the way the reason I got into building the leather and cloth armor is because I got a chance to see the bulletproof vest worn by the gentleman that turned in Bonnie and Clyde. It was carrying 86 Thompson submachine gun bullets. What finally did him in as they shot him with over 100 rounds
@@barretharms655 I actually *did* research leather and fabric armors, way back in the day when Nicolle was pulling those jawshan photos in Syria -- at some point I would love to go over this stuff in detail with you.
As someone who reads Fiore, I'm baffled by the idea something isn't explained or people use frog DNA but, then again, I am spoilt when it comes to translations.
If something isn't explain then isn't whatever you come up with essentially the same as frog DNA?
@@Sk0lzky it depends on a number of factors such as geographical proximity, descriptions of first hand accounts etc. These can build up a picture over time on what the martial art looked like.
If there's no evidence to support the claim then yes because there's no informed explanation it's guesswork, but things like Polish sabre are able to be reconstructed with sources that aren't treatises because they are historical sources.
Reconstruction exists on a spectrum depending on how much evidence there is to support it.
And that's the rub. If it's early days and you're working with a manuscript WITHOUT benefit of all that comparable material, and you come from prior training, that prior training will color your vision. I was an early adherent to "did you notice Fiore raises his heel?" ...at the time that was controversial, and while it's borne out and for good reasons, I didn't spot it because I'm awesome or expert, but because I spent ten years doing savate, and savate uses a stance where you use the heel similarly... but on the other hand, Fiore doesn't seem to counter-rotate the hips and shoulders much, whereas that's a savate staple. What if I'd just assume "okay, Fiore uses savate-ish mechanics, let's run with it," and imported that? It would very much have warped the interpretation.
Without sister translations and all the context created over the past 20 years, we had to SKULL SWEAT that shit to keep it from sending us off into crap translation.
Dude, come to the AHF. Plenty of dussack action here!
It's a bit of a commute from Texas, but I will TOTALLY signal boost wherever possible. (You guys are about 9000 times better-known than me, so on the one hand it's ridiculous, but on the other, I had no idea you guys were doing lots of dussack, so.... I get to rec you on that basis now, too, woot!).
I don’t think your opinion on using so called “ modern fencing stance&footwork” is valid. From all that I can see in your sparring video, if the way you fight is your version of “historical stance& footwork” , then either your interpretation or your sources are just wrong.
I am assuming you have only seen the living lineage. It indeed has a very unusual stance and use of footwork.
HEMA IS DEAD... Excellent... Long LIve HEMA
I approve of this message!
This sounds about right to me.
HEMA is ruining HEMA!!!
THAT'S THE SPIRIT!!!
Hick's Law
@@joneppler9259 Unpack that one for me Job?
@russmitchellmovement Steve Hick emphasized doing what the manual said til it makes sense. HEMA will always be rooted in this. I see the ride of MEMA (Modern European Martial Arts) as the current situation you describe. It is HEMA's prolific spawn.
Am I dinosaur that faded into woodwork?
LOL. That's like the Hollywood B-lister telling the Access T.V. presenter "hey, we're famous and on t.v.!" You're better-known than I'll *ever* be. The only reason I'm out of obscurity today (for about the next two days until you or Matt post again) is people are properly horrified at Kat's grammatical heresy. :)
@@russmitchellmovement hey Russ! I really am out of it. Injury has taken me away. I just watch throwing popcorn from the sidelines. Never forgot your little sabre class in the field though. Thanks!
@@roblovett Matt's super-effective 1796 scabbard is never getting old. ;) Sorry to hear you're hurt! That bites.
I do not condone, approve, or admire Kat's shirt.
RIP HEMA.
👍
Now it makes sense why HEMA died ☝️ It was too elitist and limited
No
But yes! But no. But yes!
HEMMA
please just turn it into a popular olympic sport so we can play a stylised tag, we have guns so we don't walk historical shoes
I'm waiting for somebody to just create a longsword league, since most of the time when people say "HEMA," what they *mean* is "tourney longsword."
But "wrongfun" is an ugly concept, too. People should enjoy themselves chasing their hobbies the way that makes them happy, or else why bother doing it?
@@russmitchellmovement Yeah cos hema sport fencing is literally the same as feather sword stage combat in the proto-pop culture of the renaissance who made pleasure out of imitating the medieval warriors in the past. The main people who follow such traditions are boyscouts and non-knights non-warrior class people.
The actual warrior class is filled with veterans, and those veterans trained in survival and drills, like fiore. Fiore's better than the other longsword masters, because he has actual combat experience both dueling and battlefield, armoured, horseback. What a knight or warrior is
Its like thinking a paintballer would be able to win war when he goes to syria or yemen or something. THat's just not how it works, you're not going to win, let alone have the balls to approach any gunfight just because you can shoot a sport gun good. So what makes a sports swordsman think he is going to go to war or fight a real fight where no one is following rules. Is that guy going to help the military somehow with his secret spinning moves, Liecthenauer meisterhau? No, instead he only fights his own tribe of people with similar mentality. And that's why those techniques work in his place, but if they try it outside. It will always end up being the same. That's why modern sport fencing ended up this way, because it was already sport fencing before regardless of style. And that's why we should make it an olympic sport. The formalisation of those techniques would be like the japanese counterparts, the tradition is barely kept alive by the strand as dance and theatre.
Skallgrim is the most strict it seems. And he’s the worse Hema practitioner compared to others. Very slow. He says adding kicks will get your legs chopped off. I always tell him. Ummm… There are leg armor
I've only practice HEMA for a bunch of years, but I'd say that the idea of HEMA killing HEMA is because we're trying to get an MMA approach to sword fight. Which in one part kills the reenactment part of the art but at the same time tries to create a Martial Art as effective as possible, that's what I believe at least.
So personal example: I'm a pale shadow of my former self, who used to do hundreds of pushups every morning and train 4-6 hours a day, minimum. Spent years doing 20 rounds a night, four nights a week. My health won't let me do that any more. I move really well....for a guy who used to need an extra half-hour to get in and out of the car, but it's obvious that I lack the conditioning to be a real threat once the newbies are eliminated in pools. Guys like me, who have health or age issues having trouble remaining competitive (because **conditioning COUNTS**) are going to do what every other athlete does when they're trying to extend their career -- look for an edge to help support them.
I predict that a number of those folks will go back to the manuals hunting for ideas and inspirations, and so you'll have some people who are focused on "understand the manuscripts," and you'll have others who spent very little time with the sources while younger, who trawl through them for ideas an inspiration when they're older.
Quite an interesting video I agreed with more than my gut reaction of disapproval expected. Kind of exemplifies my general disinterest in doing things by the book my goal being to win at swords rather than historical reconstruction but I would like to add the inherent paradox of trying to get better at something without mixing in frog dna no one is born in a vacuum and you cannot necessarily tell the difference between cool stuff you've learned and seen which the historical fencing masters didn't have access to vs things that come intuitively to you which they would have. Furthermore what is intuitive to people is different for everyone then and now so much personality and physicality goes into fighting I would wager the only person who ever truly fought in fiore or Lichtenhaur or any other were themselves and themselves alone. Not to say hema was a waist of time of course not but it was floored from the start trying to find a plutonium ideal of anything in the real world is impossible let alone humans aproach to art
This girls attitude is a major part of what's wrong with modern society and the younger generations. "I'm done with school. I'm good." She thinks she learned everything she needs to learn in school, and she has no further interest in self education. Used to be that you always seek further knowledge. Always.
Many modern young people would happily study and get better education, but who's going to pay for it? You?
HEMA is dead. Long live EMA.
lol
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣