Has HEMA changed too much?
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Just split it into HEMA & MEMA (modern European martial arts), then there is no problem adding new techniques to the evolving MEMA while preserving HEMA intact.
Talking by experience, even the most horrible technique is represented in a manual somewhere, from one handed cuts by the pommel to the leg, to zwerch opted to anything. Techniques are all there, the difference to me is barely relevant, it’s honestly hard to define what is “martial” and what is “sporty” in my understanding, while talking about actions and motions. It’s more the context of application of said techniques and the objective that a ruleset brings with it.
Team BEMA. Still training in the Backyard only 🤓
Bingo! Nice ^^
@@FedericoMalagutti Modern Kendo differs in how the proportions of the bamboo sword, the armour, and the ruleset etc. have created a combat sport that finds itself ongoingly distanced from the characteristics of classical Japanese swordsmanship. The influence of the Olympics on Judo has taken that pursuit in an increasingly unrecognisable direction. This is the danger of centralised authority, business, and politics.
The connection to history is already so attenuated, the difference is academic. This is at once the greatest strength and weakness of HEMA, because it is entirely at the mercy of everyone's creativity.
I have never seen or understood this perceived dichotomy between HEMA historians and tournament fighters. Every successful tournament fighter I know has extremely in depth knowledge of multiple sources, and it was from these sources that they have derived many of their tactics strategies and psychological approaches.
You can do what works because the sources work
You are 100% right
100% this. Most of the peoples I know who are well ranked HEMA fighters would just shake their heads at this statement.
It's just for dumb debates on the internet.
Personally, I find that making the concepts of sources work in sparring or tournaments is the best rewarding thing of my practice.
@@tatumergo3931 important note, those crazy germans in the woods sucked. There is nothing magical about the threat of death or harm that transforms something into the truth
@@tatumergo3931 well, it depends on the sources, but some are quite clear. They describe the timing of the actions, the actions themselves and their effects. You can usually see by yourself if you perform the action correctly.
I don't think it's fair to dismiss the "history vs. sport" controversy as just a "perceived dichotomy." All rule-sets, no matter how complicated or clever, have "loopholes" that will either reward or fail to punish undesirable behavior, and for HEMA, that will inevitably encourage non-historical/combat-ineffective practices, though they may be subtle. Schola Gladiatoria has a few videos on this topic that I found quite eye-opening, particularly about the nuance and difficulties of rule-set design.
Having said that, Matt's opinion on tournaments seems to be "in favor of but with concerns," and I personally fail to see how you could reasonably argue that they aren't at least _potentially_ beneficial to HEMA's historicity, as they make an excellent vehicle for exchanging information, introducing/evaluating fresh perspectives, and preventing individual groups from turning into isolated echo chambers of error.
I postulate that what defined whether the HEMA you are practicing is combat sport or martial art is the intent of inclusion of factors to study in the appropriate context. As a historical martial art, this means test cutting to learn how the blade interacts with materials-especially resistive-historical footwear, spaces of varying degrees of confinement, training self-defense with legal consideration versus war and ambush, and so on. It is the same difference between learning how to box and grapple for a combat sport versus for police, military, and/or self-defense. HEMA as a martial art means considering and simulating the context and purposes of the historical material through multi-factor practice.
Believe me, everything helps and everything doesn’t help at the same time. As much as we vary the environment of training and the means, adding historical footwear, cut static targets etc (which I did and do every now and then today) the result is always mainly related to our main test ground (simulation of a fight) as it has been back then. Even back then, they had limits in such kind of practice by the way, that’s also why fencing changed sometimes!
@@FedericoMalagutti Of course. Training is always missing factors involved in real violence; cutting test materials and sparring without intent to harm the other person is different cutting with intent to seriously injure or kill. The best training can ever do is train for as many of the factors as possible, which is never all of them.
I'm a mere 1.5 years into my HEMA journey.
Without sparring being an option I would never have joined a club. I lean towards the combat sport side.
To a limited degree I refer to the sources, but i am very fortunate in having great instructors and very competent sparring partners.
HEMA can easily be a broad church. Room for athletes and historians.
That's the correct spirit! Very good
I personally find the sparring aspect of great importance. I'm also just over a year into HEMA, and I find that Kenjutsu and the Japanese weapon arts lack the dynamic nature of sparring. It is so easy to fight an imaginary opponent: The air doesn't surprise you.
Battle-sense, or just the knack of reading another opponent, is something that no amount of solo-drilling or even partner drilling can really accomplish.
@@spicketspaghet7773you could probably use kendo as a substitute for kenjutsu sparring it might not be the exact same thing but it might work.
I think that you should not train just to be good in only one set of rules, train in different ones even train to do exhibitions in a choreography and once you out everything together you will be able to gain further understanding of the manuals.
Ideally yes
Agree. The aim of a martial art is to aquire the skills to efficiently slay or otherwise incapacitate an opponent and survive. Short of actually engaging a life or death situation, you can only develope these skills thru a sportive situation. This has always been the case historically. If Hema should not evolve into a mere innocuous sport, like olympic fencing, the basic question should be the basic question the historical manuals deal with: how effective would these techniques be in an actual combat scenario? If the primary goal of HEMA becomes archeological fidelity to source material, we would develope a gracious art form with insignificant true combative value.
How cool is that: the picture you see at the 1:17 timestamp is one I took at the 2016 Lion's Cup in Holland!
How cool! I hope it doesn’t bother you is there btw, I needed some shoots and when I knew who made it I asked, otherwise I just stole them ghghgh ;-)
@@FedericoMalagutti Oh this is perfectly okay with me! Actually I'm a bit overwhelmed at the moment, because this was something I really really didn't expect to happen. So, I don't mind at all no. 😁
Funny at 0:00 the guy in the red is my instructor
Great video Federico. I came into the scene with no club, no sparring partners, just the manuals. I had youtube, but the manuals were always my primary guide and videos were there to help make sense of them. Now I teach longsword and I've noticed a lot of my students don't have the same regard for them. I make sure my lessons quote source and then we build up the interpretation, but it really does seem like most are content with "instructor say it so I do it"...trying to work out the kinks and bring people back to source.
I've had to adjust the curriculum to cater more toward the tournament scene. Where previously we would maybe spend weeks on a particular technique getting a depth of knowledge of the plays, now the goal is to get people up to speed on the most commonly used techniques across the tradition so they can hang in a fight and then go back through and patch the deep technical skills later on after basic competency. I still make a point of teaching all the techniques, even if they're universally banned in competition. I make it very clear that they are banned and why and to not use them...but for a complete understanding of the art people need to know them.
I've definitely started patching in the "frog DNA" into the system by looking at cross training and psychology. I imagine that the fechtschules of the 16th century were doing the same thing when they were 200 years removed from the original teachings. HEMA resurrected dead arts and we are continuing to develop them as a living lineage adding modern psychology and sensibility. We stand on the shoulders of the masters.
Well said John, well said. Nice work, keep it up!
@@FedericoMalagutti thanks, sir :) Imagine in 200 years people are quoting Norwood, Malagutti, Farrell, and Fabian sources instead of Lichtenauer, Mair, Meyer, and Kal. What we do today is going to matter for the tradition down the road.
Great perspective. Thanks for sharing!
Awesome video. Positive, encouraging, expalining, insightful
I think it's essential that we keep close to the most "studious" among us and that they provide continuous feedback on how we can improve rules and equipment to get all possible historical scenarios into our sparring and tournaments.
I agree!
Informative as always.
This video was great! I'm still new to HEMA, so seeing your journey over the years and the kind of thoughts you share is really interesting to hear. Thank you for this :)
You are welcome!!
The difference between a martial art and a combat sport is whether you are training to win an actual fight or to win a tournament fight.
Any martial art that has no sparring is completely dead because you can never know that you are doing the technique right. Fighting techniques are always done against a resistant opponent. Failing to practice with a resistant opponent is like trying to learn a language but never write or speak it.
Ideally yes, the only problem is having enough actual sword fights so to have the bunch of informations needed to structure training so to win real swordfighting, even in that case, the goal has to be kept alive (as I explain in the video) so that the goal of sparring keeps being winning a fight and not winning the sparring itself, which is a natural adaptation.
So yeah, ideally yes
Very good video! We are discussing the same problems in our own club. Our goal is to learn to fence effectively while always trying to "survive" at any cost. But we have seen many other fencers trying to simply hit and get as many point as possible.
What wholesome quality content! Bravo.
Thanks!
Thank you, Federico, for the wellness check.
I have been inactive for nearly three years owing to a spinal condition which I am struggling to overcome. It’s good to know that HEMA continues to prosper.
I wish you a safe and fast recovery!
Excellent writing, great video!
Thanks!
6:16 Ave Imperator! Without a reference to the past it is but EMA and no longer HEMA.
Definitely, I agree!
wonderful video.
Very thoughtful.
I don’t compete. I play. I have fun with my people who love history and like to fight! I don’t care who scores more, only seek to improve my efficiency with archaic weapons. ^^ Cool video. Thanks!
Great video!
Thanks!
I test cut but I also spar it’s the only way too know I’d what your doing works or not .
As a couple that have only recently found that HEMA lives today, we are so glad we found your channel!!! Great resource! What would you recommend as the top three source books for folks just starting out? Appreciate you!
For Longsword:
Peter Von Danzig
Fiore de’ Liberi
Sigmund Ringeck
I don't know how long hema will continue, but I think it will probably branch out into something like kendo, kenjutsu, and iaido. All of these are martial arts that focus on katana used fighting, but each specializes in certain situations and elements. I also think that the various ranking systems, norms, etiquette, and other mental aspects of hema will gradually become more uniform.
I remember Russ Mitchell said HEMA is dead and now the new generation of athletes mostly learned from an instructor rather than testing out the sources. Different interpretations from different instructors now lead to multiple styles of fencing for these young athletes, even when those "styles" are all from 1 manuscripts.
I think this is exactly what happened in German back in Joachim Meyer time. Where Paulus Hector Mair looking to preserve the old art of Liechtenaur exactly like how it was written; Meyer and later on, his fencing school, turned it into something not completely new, but not really Liechtenauer either. Low intensity sparring with Federschwert changed everything, opened up alot of new paths for new techniques and different interpretations of Liechtenauer's original master strikes and tactics. Dude has been doing HEMA way before HEMA was even a thing
This isn't true for every club though. E.g. at mine we look directly at the manuals and are encouraged to learn directly from them. Yes people show up just to learn the interpretation the instructors teach, but you also have people like myself and others who engage directly with the instructors, the manuals, and modify the taught interpretations if we figure out a better/more accurate/more historical explanation.
Pure autism "H-he didn't read the manual!!"
Love your videos. Very insightful keep it up.
English tip?
Asked is said like ask+t. (Askt)
Walked it said like walkt
Started is like started.
90% of the time past tense "-ed" is said as "t".
I mention it in the most earnest helpful manner.
Again awesome content.
What is this telling me is that HEMA is going to the exact same place where kendo is - that is: setting up an enviroment where you can be competitive with reasonable level of safety and scoring rules. Unfortunately i think it will hurt "original" HEMA as much as kendo hurt "kenjutsu" - descoping from many-many techniques to the ones that gives you points. Now the question is - is that a bad thing? It depends.
Kendo is what it is also because a choice has been made (with relates well to Japanese culture in martial regards) to keep it as it was (talking about kendo itself) for the most part. So it will be similar but different, as well as similar but different from MOF and similar but different to any other weapon based martial art or combat sport. Unironically, old style HEMA never existed, and in a sense, even the fencing practiced by the ancient masters in their sales wasn’t “the real HEMA” we think of, as it was a safe approximation of combat with their own specific tools. So yeah, it’s complex!
Great video as usual my friend. In my opinion I think that the natural evolution of the prevalence of sparring in HEMA was simply a matter of time and pretty much unavoidable. When people see a combat art that looks promising, effective and useful its only natural that they are going to want to use it to explore the possibilities. Some individuals (especially the hands on type) like to feel a sense of progression and evolution and simply like to put theory to practice to that way decide if a pursuit is still worth their time. Sparring I feel is one of the quickest ways to turn that into a reality. Though there have been a few hick ups here and there I still feel the sport in a general sense is heading down the right path. That's just my 2 cents.
Agreed!
Finally reconnected with my old HEMA Club/Group, and I must say... Things are only getting better.
This is a very important video and I cannot thank you enough for sharing your thoughts in it, Federico, as it certainly sheds some light in many of the questions that I and many other martial artists had in our minds.
About a month ago, as I was almost fully recuperated from my ankle surgery, I was pondering on whether coming back to Muay Thai was the right choice or not.
I looked at what I had close too; Karate (I've been there for 9 years), MMA, which was the best in terms of schedule compatibility... HEMA unfortunately is not an option yet, unless I am willing to sacrifice 2 hours of public transport to train there.
So my head was asking... What to do?
The UFC is having problems at the moment, the Muay Thai association of Thailand is charging against One Championship for defaming the art of Muay Thai, or so I heard (I have yet to investigate this rumour), boxing is too limited in my view, plus it's full of mafia and TH-cam nonsense... And then... HEMA is also changing.
I have so many questions and no master near to answer, so this very small video, 7 minutes, is a good way to comfirm that my instincts are not mistaken and that I must reach the conclusion of what I want to do before deciding where to go.
Perhaps I do now know the answer yet, and that's ok. Let's hope we all find that place where we belong, and let's keep working day by day in those things that bring about our passion.
Once again, many thank you for sharing your insight to us 🙏
You are welcome, nice background you have there!!! I wish you a full recovery and to find the best training environment possible!
@@FedericoMalagutti Thank you! I hope your message reaches out to the deserved public. Fare well 👊
1:43 i recognize the fencer in red! that's Arthur Henry, rapier champ and teacher at the Sacramento Historical Fencing Academy. 9/10 would recommend his rapier classes
Amon Amarth shirt? hell yeah brother
also: what a beautiful video.
Thanks ;-)
Amen to this video!!!!
Ahaha, thanks!
HEMA is simply ... growing. At first, it was a something only for those deeply interested in discovering those lost manuals, to better understand a face of the past that was pretty much lost. Then, in order to test the if the sources worked, sparring became necessary. And from that we also discovered that may have misanderstood some pieces of the manuals. So we adapt and find a solution. The only difference i see between hema historians and tournament fighters is the "goal". Tournaments have point systems. This means that you will often times try to score the most points. This means that sometimes, certain moves found in the manuals are effective, but not "tournament efficent". Because your hit won't disable your opponent, he wont' back away in pain, in a tournament the opponent will often complete the action, possibly hitting you back. The manuals often accounted for this possibility, but in a tournament it happens more often than not. This will simply be solved by evolving the tournament rules and its fine, it's a necessary growing process.
For myself, I think it's the difference between “attempting to reconstruct the historical system as it existed in its original historical context” (i.e., more of an exercise in experimental archaeology where the participants are reconstructing what people would have done and known in their specific historical contexts) versus developing a new, modern, sport-focused system that is built off of, but has ultimately evolved beyond, the limited historical sources (i.e., more like MMA where various parts of several martial traditions have been cobbled together using only the "best" bits from each with a focus almost purely on winning fights). One could say that the first is more focused on the “Historical European” part, and the other is more focused on the “Martial Arts” part. From personal experience, I’ve noted that modern combatants in modern fighting tend to discard anything they find to be sub-optimal, and given that we now have access to martial traditions from around the globe and from various points in recorded history at our finger tips (which a medieval German man at arms likely didn’t have) and a lot of people are approaching HEMA from the combatant side first and not the historian side anymore, I see this as a wholly expected outcome, though I think it loses a lot of what made the various HEMA systems unique and interesting, at least for me, when they are diluted by incorporating moves and techniques from systems which are often not remotely contemporaneous either geographically or temporally. That’s just me, though. I've always tended to come at it from the historian side before the combatant side.
My biggest problem with tournaments is the cost.
The upfront and travel costs are the obvious ones yes, but also the cost of injury. I am a maintenance worker, so if I’m left with a broken hand, I lose my livelihood.
I don’t see people in tournaments penalized enough for going way beyond “honorable duel” level of force, where they would potentially be marked as murderers in the time period. And today of course, risk the other persons health over a small prize and a trophy.
There’s also the issue of; what are these tournament rules trying to represent? A duel with a padded jacket that isn’t to the death? Do we count draw cuts then? Those are known to not go through gambesons or even just historical clothing very often.
On the other hand, is it to the death? With no padded jacket? What of hand protection? There are so many contextual variables that tournament organizers don’t cover when making rules (don’t get me started on afterblows...) that that’s where I find the disconnect between historical recreation and sport HEMA comes.
I think sparring at speed with many different people is important, but I’ve known strangers to be very dangerous when the goal is to win and not learn.
Of course, the worst is when those TOs disallow or severely limit wrestling without penalizing people for trying to take your head off with zornhaus. There’s wrestling everywhere in the treatises, but many of the tournament focused clubs and schools don’t cover it at all. When they do, it’s usually very minor.
Shout out to Cymbrogi School of WMA in Moore, Oklahoma as an outlier by the way.
A well presented synopsis.
Thanks!
We will never use HEMA in a real context.
Tournament is the best thing we have to pressure test.
I see people value too much book over tournament and see people value tournament too much without respecting the books.
We have to be balanced.
I think its the most crucial point to understand in hema that it is historical
I don't like how tournaments focus so much on "touches" that would never be used or barely cause serious harm in a real fight with a sharp weapon. Risking it all just to "touch" a fraction of a second earlier might give you a point, but would still get you killed. This criticism is less about historical accuracy but more about putting too much effort to optimize towards an unrealistic combat situation.
GREAT Video. I see from a split second frame that at 3.40 you were (probably) at Berlin's Twerchau AND with Roland. So are you coming to the BBB this May?
Yes, I’ve been there five times, from 2013 to 2016. Roland has been a great influence in my early fencing career, and while we took different paths, I have huge respect for him and I consider him a friend.
At some point I’ll be back in Berlin
I've been retraining mostly solo since 2000. I did a couple weekend seminars in 2001 & 2002. I used to backyard spar against anyone who wanted; Olympic fencers, kendoka, Filipino eskrimadors, at least 1 kung fu swordsman (used jian techniques but I have no clue what style), untrained folks, etc.
What I never did or really wanted to do was go to tournaments. T
Meeting people at an event itself would be fun, but competing isn't a big speak to me. I'd love to just spar but contests don't speak to me.
Also I don't like fencers who play the rules to win; complain a hit shouldn't count because it was unorthodox or use feders that are too light & with far longer grips that is historic to gain an edge for examples.
But as an outside observer for a couple decades I agree HEMA has gotten very tournament focused. One aspect often neglected it seems is grappling in swordplay. I get safety concerns but some tournaments seem to disallow most grappling which really changes the realism of historic swordplay. I'm not saying safety should be abandoned or that bouts under such rules are not worth doing...just that if one really wants to be accurate one has to practice & be able to test which techniques.
Sparring changes everything
I find that the distinction between a martial art and a combat sport is the way sparring is used. A tool for the former while a goal by itself to the latter.
Hema has become a combat sport cause people are mostly interested in becoming good and winning at the specific environment and ruleset they use
è la stessa cosa che è successa con tutte le arti marziali, portandole a nuove vette (anche se solo in certi contesti... ovvio, per fortuna non ci si ammazza più). Basta mantenere vive le radici e continuare a divertirsi con l'innovazione... che altro non è se la tradizione che ha avuto successo nell'adattarsi. Controsenso ;)
I agree with this with the one caveat that we shouldn't treat the sources like the Bible of HEMA. They are great tomes of knowledge, absolutely, but I doubt were any of the old masters alive today they would be so strictly adherant to their own works. Imagine if they had the readily accessible information we have now, access to an entire worlds worth of information. Different styles, cultures, weaponry..different mindsets and training regimens, the ability to travel and learn, spar and test new theories and strategies...I find it hard to believe any of them wouldn't absolutely spring at the opportunity to further refine their crafts.
As with MMA I think we are slowly transitioning to an environment that will see drastically different forms arise in the competitive environments. Kendo, escrima, silat, tire machet, african martial arts...
I think as HEMA continues to grow in popularity and scope we're going to need to drop the "E" and just call it what it really is - Mixed Weapons Martial Arts, and that, in my eyes, is a very, very good thing.
Sparring and competition are a huge difference.
Not only is it much easier to change rules and other artifacts in sparring, rather than competition, it also allows for safety systems that competition completely makes impossible to rely on. Thereby competition is more set in its artifacts.
In sparring opponents might even have different victory conditions to one another, whereas in competition this is an issue.
In fact... wenn profesional sport, givibg in for safety or gentlemanly reasons is literrally illegal (due to betting laws, the judge must make the call, not the competitor), this is not an issue in sparring.
Eauating the two (apart from judgibg issues you do mention) is just not really reality.
Also sparring was widespread well before HEMA git its name, and well before the sources were even available to most, when in its re-enactment predecessors sparring was almost the only method to degine a style.
Very well said, times and people change and we can't expect everything to stay the same forever. With a combination of study of the sources and both tournament and friendly sparring, I think we can maintain a good balance of keeping it well within it's historical context, but also make a fun sport out of it that we can enjoy for some healthy competition.
I’m definitely of the same idea!
This video is the best analysis about Hema, and it should be a lesson for those people who force the division between "martial art" and "combat sport" becasue in my very short journey into this world, i learnt that one cannot exist without the other.
Bravo Fede
🖤🐐
Thanks ;-)
In my view, there's not really a dichotomy. The manuals on which HEMA is based were originally meantime to teaching techniques that would be applied to real duels or battle scenarios. Therefore, sparring is an essential component of studying these manuals.
Also, the old masters knew the works of their predecessors and tries to improve on those teachings, so applying different concepts and techniques from different sources to me does not sound like straying away from the original spirit.
In modern HEMA sparring, people aren't afraid enough of being hit -- a consequence of wearing crazy amounts of protective gear.
I’ve practiced for four years without gear, only leather gloves, sometimes with the addition of a mask only. It creates more problems than the ones it solves.
For me it is confusing as _Sparring is a training technique in which fighters work on punches, footwork and defense without actually fighting_ Where for a boxer the competition is the fight but for swordfighters fighting can be to the blood or just the competition.
I think that both statements are true for both practices. Box is arguably a very effective fighting style even out of the ring
Don't be a pessimist, we are literaly at the golden age of HEMA.
If by gold you mean a rotting corpse, then yes i totally agree
Hema has a chance to explore a timeline that modern fencing did not. Tournaments are tough and would benefit from a universal rulebook for judges if they were not as invasive as say modern sabre. Smallsword is obviously the easiest as you can incorporate epee and wrestling rules of those two sports easily. FIE priority does make some sense as it points out the fencer who's fault it was for a double. FIE makes little sense with say you can score with the flat of the blade and can't cross step forward.
Agreed, many interesting things here and there to pick from
Modern fencing is the way it is bc it chose a sportive path in general. That is what sport fencing will always end up as. The only issue the FIE has is no good cutting discipline, something they know and have been working for decades to fix
I don't agree with the dichotomy of martial art vs. combat sport to be honest, or that sparring automatically makes something a combat sport. If that is true, doesn't looking to the sources to recreate automatically make it a martial art? I still agree that sparring is critical, of course, but I don't see pressure testing without points, etc. a combat sport. What you describe as a dichotomy I see as more of a continuum, personally. However, I fully agree with the spirit of the video! I'm pretty new to the HEMA world and I'm sure it will continue to evolve, which is of course a good thing.
Well, almost every combat sport has sparring without points, while the majority, almost every martial art doesn’t have sources to pick from, if not direct explanations from the instructor which theoretically came from the previous and so on.
But long story short, I just give name to things. I could say that it’s none, or it’s both or whatever, but my explanation is not to give the favorite name to something, it’s basically a way to describe a process. This process which I describe is more topical in what people call combat sports rather than martial arts.
MMA is a combat sport, but no one would argue that its actions can be useful in other combat environments, or can be found in other training environments which defines themselves as Martial Arts. Does this makes MMA a martial art? This is actually a rhetorical question because the answer isn’t clear.
The reality is that both martial arts and combat sports are sports, the first tend to have lower levels of competitiveness and athleticism compared to the second, and this makes this environments less or more faster in their evolution process based on needs. Because the needs appear and change faster the more the environment is competitive in nature (which is what happens in war too).
By living both the environment for years (Ju Jutsu, Jo Do, Aikido, Boxing, Muay Thai and all the possible flavors of HEMA) I noticed that every environment changes.
Even my Ju Jutsu instructor which always said “he was teaching the art of samurai bla bla hundreds years old” changed some leverage every now and then. Based at n doubt? Observation? Comparison with others? Who knows!
Martial Arts, the more I move forward, are harder and harder to define. What defines them?
Function? Well that’s most of the times isn’t the case.
History? Well, yes, but they rarely tend to be the same after only a couple decades.
Cultural Heritage? Well this is probably the only thing which really defines certain martial arts.
What’s a combat sport to me is quite clear instead. So that’s how my reasoning come from. Anyway, that’s only my pov.
@@FedericoMalagutti fair enough, and good explanation! I struggle with labels myself and mostly find them annoying haha
@@corrugatedcavalier5266 agreed
To me, the biggest propblem that tournaments (not sparring) causes HEMA is an over-reliance on athleticism to the detramint of technique which leads to pretty suicidal fencing to score points. People seeking saftey with maximum distance and blitxing speed instead of control.
Although I think that's starting to change maybe... Fencers like yourself and Arto give me hope. But often when I see tournaments where exhanges go 2 intentions deep max, and there's an afteblow 90% of the time I just roll my eyes.
Well! Athleticism is an important prerequisite for any kind of fighter. Anyway, what brings afterblows and doubles can be found in many different motivations, but the most important one are psychological (excitement, fear) and related to the ruleset. If the second is an artifact, the first one is even more real in a duel, that’s why double kills always existed.
@@FedericoMalagutti I'm not at all meaning to say athleticism is bad, just that an over reliance on it is.
And yes I agree what you say about doubles too, I certainly don't think they are all bad and I know they are a reality of fencing that HEMA didn't create.
I guess to put my thoughts another way, is that I see many doubles being caused by poor tactits fueled by this reliance on athleticism. For attacking attacking low when the oppoents blade is in presence, blind counter attacks that try to get around and, action instead of controlling it, leaving binds to snipe and immediately getting skewered.
This is just my observation, but I think people fence best outside of tournaments.
Agreed
HEMA = historical European martial arts
.....Not... fight only in the way a historical manual tells you.
A martial art is Art of the Roman god of war. Any fighting done in a defensive Manor where the goal is to not be wounded as a martial art.
Any fighting using historical European weapons for the purpose of defeating an opponent or protecting oneself is it going to qualify as HEMA.
I study HEMA so I can be a better tournament fighter. If historical texts help me to that end, that is excellent. If I make up some stuff along the way that works, that is fine too. If it works, I'm sure some historical person used as well.
I know I am late to this party, and late 3 bloody months, but I think that there is... well one additional issue. Tournaments and "tournament rules" are... slowly going towards stuff like olympic fencing, not historical fencing. I think that a good example of that could be a rule change, which was mentioned by instructors at my club. It redefines how parries and blocks are treated in a tournament setting. I don't remember right now which set of rules/organisation introduced it( FEDER probably ), but it was really daft. The Organisation just declared that cuts, which would land by breaking a block or your opponent failing a parry, would not be counted as proper hits. It is... beyond stupid. Not only is it unrealistic, but it also just promotes thrusting to an unhealthy degree. Imagine you just blowing though your opponents block/guard/parry attempt. It is quite obvious that you would cause severe harm to them, right? What the hell is that new rule then?????
I practice at a fairly small club and we are focused on experimental archeology and recreation of more "realistic conditions" of fighting. As such instructors formulated their own separate sets of rules, for any "tournament - like" activities and actual full contact sparrings. And the more videos of HEMA practice I watch, the more clear it becomes to me that... I just practice fencing with blunted swords, grappling and combat movement. It just stops being HEMA at some point. So yeah, HEMA has changed, at least it did where I practice it.
Do you really think that traditional martial artists didn't spar and cross-train? Forms without sparring isn't martial arts, it's nonsense.
The difference between combat sports and martial arts is competition under a formalized ruleset.
…Whichis the formalization of sparring.
You would be surprised of how many Martial Arts and Combat Sport I’ve practiced in the last 12 years, I’m not anyway representing every single environment existed or existing in the video, I explain a process and I (as I state in the video) express my view about the real line which divides combat sports and martial arts
If the opponant doesnt say ow you did something wrong. A martial art is an art trained for war. Whether it be riding a horse or using a sword your fists or the ground. Imo not enough clubs train to fight for their lives. It can be done safely enough. But the reality it were simulating wring 37 inch razerblades at each other. Sometimes people get hurt.
Well, yes
Skallagrim will always be limited. He doesn’t want to adapt 😂
true story)))
Maybe i don't have so much experience with Hema but I think from what I have seen that people practice hema differently these days... as in a the wrong way... the correct way and the the intent would be to simulate to cut our opponent or to thrust but a lot of Hema fencers just are contempt to hit their opponent with the sword... ( with is not hoe it is originally taught... we are taught to simulate to cut even with a practice blunt sword in sparring ) now I practice these hema techniques cause for 2 yesrs I bought 2 battle ready swords and I incorporated them in my sword cutting practice and I see that if you don't do the correct cuting motion ( if you are hitting instead of cutting ) you can't even cut a water bottle... so most of those attaks wouldn't cut shit in a duel with real swords or it would cut very superficially And secondly I studied the techniques of Achille Marozzo and both in sidesword and in Longswords he teaches us how to use the passing step and all the guards ( 20 for sidesword and I don't remember hos many for longsword ) but today very few fencers use the passing step in sidesword and even in longsword at all and mostly use just one or 2 guards ( coda lunga stretta and guardia alicorno for example ) that is NOT how it is meant to be... why do they do this ??? To maximase the so called feeling of safety ?? Personally I think it is kind of cowardly and stupid... no offense to anyone !
I think that you are onto something but you are missing a lot of how the meta goes.
Due to my quite long experience I can tell you that any action that starts with the point forward has a much higher success rate at beginner and intermediate levels. And thrust are still extremely dangerous and realistic. I agree that cuts like those can be weak and a bit unrealistic, but I usually ascribe it to poore technique rather than intentional "touching". Most experienced fencers hit really hard with cuts. Maybe without perfect technique, but enough to stop your action if you are hit. Now, consider that many people that start with a forward stance tend to stay in this comfort zone for their whole careers, even when they get more experienced. That is something I don't like and I made it my mission to punish them for it.
There is also to consider that the historical context in which all the guards and techniques were developed is hard to recreate. Different equipment, different rules (even different from the old training rules they used, see Manciolino), but especially a different mindset, made of more showing off, more veterans from war, people who trained on horseback, hardcore last blood duelists, ignorant fencers who never had a master, tavern brawls, etc... So should I convince someone to train really hard at some technique that will be extremely hard to pull off in the current meta only to see them get destroyed in every sparring session or tournament? I am not sure. You have to strike a balance and let them decide what to aim for. Worst case scenario, they become a good sparring dummy for your advanced techniques. Cos if you force them into stuff that doesn't work, you risk having them leave or become a mediocre fencer that does random ineffective stuff and is useless even as a sparring partner
@@Manweor i understand and thank you for your answer... sadly I don't have much experience in sparring... I only sparred a few times with synthetic swords but I have a fair experience in sword cutting ( I have been training every week for 2 years now in cutting practce water bottles and fruit ) where I applied the stances, steps and cuts and I use the advancing step, the passing step, thr gsthering step and the triangle step but when comparing this to a lot of sparring videos I see on youtube almost nobody is using the passing step... and I ask myself how come ? To not get out of their confort zone ? I get that you can be more exposed when usung the passing step in sparring weather when sparring with sideswords or logswords ( you never use it with saber or rapier I know but I mean excluding those ) but I think there still is a reason it was invented and there are still advantages you can have using it for instance you can generate a lot more power and have more reach when making a mandritto squalenbrato using the passing step.
So if it is not to much to ask could you explain to me please why the passing step is not used almost at all in sparring and in competitions ? I apolagise for my lack of experience... but there but a few hema gyms in my country ( Romania ) and I learned what I could off the internet.
@@alinvid6098 tons of people use passing steps. I think you're missing a lot of fencers and styles? Every club I've been to cares about hit quality and edge alignment. In my local tournament scene you don't score if you hit flat. And many people practice cutting. When your opponent is similar to you in skill level though, fencing is hard. In the world cup the players are better but the games don't have higher scores on average. It's hard to get really good hits when the other person is pushing you to your limit.
@@cosc_HEMA thank you for your answers 🙂 yup I am missing a lot... 😔 cause the nearest Hema club here in Romania where I am from is in it's capital Bucharest witch is 600 kilometers away from me si trainung there is not an option for me... I own 2 battle ready swords and I train with them un cutting practice... currently I bought 2 synthetic swords too but I only got to train witht them once with a friend.
I know strikes using the flats are not counted as points but I think a correct simulated cut would ve to draw the edge a little on the body of your opponent on the portion that you are "cutting" on like a real cut would be cause when cutting plastic water bottles I noticed that if you don't do the cutting motion with proper edge alignment you don't cut you just hit thr water bottle even if you lamd with the edge... I have seen a lot of fencers do that im videos not draw their cuts just hit with the edge...
And If we are tslking about famous fencers then no I don't know many names... only Martin Fabian and Ilkka Otto
@@alinvid6098 yeah passing step is super popular. Most people dont use passing step on their first approach as passing step has to be long enough to actually pass, so it is harder to control distance (which is EXTREMELY important in actual fight/sparring as any fighter would tell you, be it sword fighter, mma one or boxer). But they are super popular in ripostes, beat parries, or redoublement. I dont think you can attend a tournament and not just see a huge numbers of combos like thrust/feint thrust that gets parried, followed by the passing step by the person that did the thrust, changing the line of attack with a zwerch or unterhau, and using the distance gained by the passing step to close of the opponents line of attack, basically bodyblocking the other persons arms
I think over time HEMA will replace fencing similar to how MMA replaced boxing. Its so much more fun and more ways to play, the outfits are better.
lol no, HEMA is too decentralised and too unsafe to replace fencing. MMA hasnt even replaced boxing yet, boxing money is still way bigger, and MMA is a far more centralised community that doesnt need to worry as much about safety (its effectively allowed to be kept unsafe) and all the different variations of MA in it a mixed togetehr within a common ruleset, allowing for mass aprticipation. HEMA does not, and likely will not, have these elements in their favour.
@@bigmoz9900 I'm seeing steady drop in Olympic fencing membership and growth in Hema. Long term it just doesn't look good.
@@mharm734 That just not true globally. My uni club has increased by %100 year on year for ages. By the numbers, fencings growing pretty much universally across the anglosphere, steady in Europe and explosing in Asia. Your anecdotal experience is irrelevant to the fact that even the international comps *grew* during covid. In specific areas where there arent strong clubs and a lot of it is social, the modern fencing scene might have suffered. But those areas are outliers to the general trend which vearies from holding steady in europe, to growth in the anglosphere, to explosion in Asia and South America.
@@bigmoz9900 some divisions in the US had an 85% membership decline. Locally multiple clubs closed including one I was assistant coach at and many fencers coaches directors etc went away for good. I can't speak to Europe of course I'm in the US. As this happened multiple Hema clubs opened and are getting packed and there is strong growth in tournament size as the Olympic fencing tourneys shrink and offer less ratings opportunities.
@@mharm734 cool. Yet nationally, US fencing has increased membership. USA is more of a prime market in hema due to having more of a violence fetish than most of the world anyway (while again, still growing in members), but regardless the fact of the matter is HEMA has none of the fundamental mechanisms required to overtake modern fencing at a systemic level (not inherently, it just hasnt developed them and kinda doesnt want to for decent reasons). The USA is the best market for HEMA (you might think Europe but they have nowhere near as much in the way of cultural insecurities), and the reality is its still not eating into modern fencing. You are out and out wrong, sorry.
RIFAC represent!
The idea that sparring transforms an art into a combat sport is so disconnected from historic definitons and practices that I don't know how you're supporting any conclusion with that as a basis
Sparring transforms a martial art into combat sport if there’s no other application of the fighting trained besides sparring itself (AKA Competitions)
Notice that this doesn’t happens always but most of the times yes.
I disagree that sparring in what makes something from a martial art to a combat sport. It's when you focus on WINNING the sparring matches is when that happens. Sparring is important to pressure test if something works. Without that pressure test, you get bullshido. Reverse grip to stab behind you works because the kenjitsu sensei says so. No reason to actually see if that works...but hey that kenjitsu master says it works and it looks cool so it works...right...and I can look cool doing it. Nevermind that it is pure fantasy as a working martial technique. The "HEMA" you see in tournaments is a combat sport. The things they do in that has evolved to be specific to the rules of tournaments with their gear. Based on historical techniques in many cases that would work fine in an actual sword fight...but what they are doing at this point is a sport to win by getting more points than the other person.
If you don’t focus on winning how can you pressure test a technique?
@FedericoMalagutti you do the technique against some who doesn't want you to land a blow and afterwards look into why it did or didn't work. The point is you both try to hit each other of course...but the end goal isn't who hit or not. It's looking at WHY.
@@ColdNapalm42 to me sparring is a fight simulation. What you suggest is a very specific way to approach sparring, useful to try new technical ideas, which represents like 5-10% of the sparring I usually do.
@@FedericoMalagutti well you can do this approach in free spar as well. Do that match and look at why things went the way they went.
I don't care for arguments, only to learn sword fighting then test those skills against others.
Sparring. So what do you call it when martial arts practitioners fight?
Seems like a lot of semantics.
Don't over think things, enjoy what you do.
Has HEMA changed too much? Yes.
Has HEMA lost its original goal? Yes.
It took 20 years for us to go from a martial art to arrive back at sport fencing.
It always happens, everytime people try to reinvent fencing it turns out fencing is how it is for good reason
I'll tell you something, HEMA has a political problem, that's a major change that has actually created issues.
There are basically two types of clubs I have ever found when traveling, or that I've found at tournaments:
Clubs that just want to do a martial art, they are community active, eager to share, and take all kinds
-or-
Clubs that look like you just walked into a terrorist cell, everyone's jackets patched up with antifa, far, and hammer and sickle patches
and the latter type seem incapable of letting the former type be, they take it upon themselves to police every group that doesnt have a black person in it, someone saw an boomer sticker on a car in the parking lot? Find out who that person is so we can harass them. Sorry, did I overhear you complaining about the bbc making king arthur african? I'm going to ask the tournament to kick you out. Whats that? you arent paying money to an antifa group in britain for a sticker that says "I dont like racism"? you better order stickers for your whole club or were going to cause trouble for you guys.
I dont know if anyone else here sees this stuff, maybe its localized, but at least here its fucking insane that these people care less about the "HE" or the "MA" and more exist in this realm to keep eyes out for anyone who might be showing a little too much respect for their own culture.
the only time a hema club will give you shit is if you are actively bigoted, i fight in multiple clubs in the midwest and i used to fight in the deep south, neither of which are very welcoming towards people different then themselves. you obviously have your own issues to deal with, but quite literally all people are asking of you is to not be an asshole :| this comment is extremely telling
@@seventhgnome5375 Wow, what wonderful clubs you have discovered! I am jealous of you, truly.
What is truly telling here is that you consider a distaste for political activists attempting to control a blossoming sport to be a personal issue, and attempt to characterize me as "an asshole".
Do you see how you, my friend, are actually the bigot? You have made a terrible assertion based on your preconceived notions.
I have sad news for you as well, your bourgeois lifestyle will soon be over and your racial control will end. Sad to see, I'm sure.
I wish you best of luck when you have to face the consequences of your hatred.
It's not! It makes hema a Sport competition. And it's was designed to real life fight!
Short to be honest: It is a new style now. Should be called EMA. 🙂
I test cut but I also spar it’s the only way too know I’d what your doing works or not .