Transracialism with Contrapoints - Destiny Debates
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 พ.ค. 2017
- Destiny has a discussion with Contrapoints about transgenderism.
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Keep discussions with Contrapoints coming. It's cool to hear you two talk.
10/10 agree.
i really enjoy them
This was a bad faith discussion from Contrapoints. People lighten their skin, change their nose shape, hair etc all the time.
@@malalalalala2985 true, skin-lightening, etc. is probably more common than transgenderism.
@@DeepPackChopra yeah, billions of times more common
@@malalalalala2985 do you think that skin-lightening is the same thing as believing you *are* a different race?
This is one of the best discussions on your channel.
Wow, this "Destiny got old in this meme" debate is getting destroyed
Holy fcvk I thought I was having an aneurysm when I read your comment.
God this meme is still going strong 3 years later
it took me over 6 minutes to understand Natalie was ALREADY there speaking...
Started watching contrapoints in the last 6 months... Started watching you since the quarantine. The transition really turned out! Love y'all
Factually wrong on one point: transgender was common place in the ancient world before christ, in some tribal societies if you where born trans that ment you where something perhaps not "higher" but more like connected to different deities, for example they where awesome as shamans because having a bit of " both genders" gave you special powers or something in that direction....
sturenorth Source?
Just to cite one example, look up Two-Spirit People, an umbrella term referring to the social role played by LGBT individuals in Native American tribes. While this role differed from tribe to tribe, most tribes viewed them highly, and they were allowed to partake in all aspects of tribal life.
Here's one source:
indiancountrymedianetwork.com/news/opinions/two-spirits-one-heart-five-genders/
third gender systems were usually used to 1) call gay people not their actual gender for being gay, 2) less than your gender for being infertile, or 3) not your gender b/c you were a masculine woman or a feminine man. i'm a trans man and i'm all for non binary rights (which is what this example is usually used in support of), but you're applying western notions to other cultures and completely disregarding cultural relativism. anthropologically, using third-gender systems such as two spirit to support the idea that transgenderism was accepted in the ancient world is a little dishonest.
404nolifefound Source?
othersociologist.com/2013/09/09/two-spirit-people/ this is sociological and not anthropological, but nonetheless.
sorry for my wording on the first comment -- i should have added that it's a subject of debate rather than implying that it's a foregone conclusion.
another example is the burrnesha/balkan sworn virgins, who had to become male in order to do male things, but some of them also wanted to be male, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
the transmedicalist argument against transracialism is that there are hormone imbalances in the womb that make you want to be the opposite sex you are, but hormones do not influence a desire for racial phenotypical expression, it's all social. without transmedicalism i don't think you can argue well against transracialism
That’s an oversimplification of transmedicalism that ignores the undercurrent of blanchardism within that sphere of thought
Oh this is natalie before she transitioned
Yeah I wasn’t expecting it, but I’d never heard her before she transitioned or anything so it was surprising at first
Those voice lessons paid off holy shit. Go Nat
so weird to see people in the chat calling Contra "him" lol (here in 2019)
Same
Greetings from 2021. You better stay over there in 2019. Believe me, it's getting worse.
@@FabBadDog Greetings from 2022. You better stay over there in 2021. Believe me, it's getting worse.
@@tarisco614 Greetings from 2024 - It's a social politics nightmare now. :)
I really like the Destiny+Contrapoints debates, keep it up :)
I'd really like to hear the perspective of an older person who is white passing who chose to live as white, and some one who is passing that chose to live as a person of color. I mean, if we're going to have this conversation, starting with the people in the middle who felt compelled to make a choice would be a good place to start.
This is a really interesting insightful discussion! That chatroom though...yeesh.
so basically because there isn't enough people who are trans racial.. that makes the difference between contra points taking it seriously or not.. I have a feeling he wouldn't have taken to kindly to that 100 years ago.. so much for progressivism
Yeah, it's a ridiculous reply, and totally illogical.
I've been waiting for this conversation for AGES. Good to see it happening.
Robert Palmer did a song about gender dysphoria way back in the 1980's called "some like it hot" that featured a transgender model in the music video.
Damn, hearing Contra in man mode is so weird
in nonbinary mode :D
Thats what I was thinking. it's so surreal when i'm used to hearing her as well.. as "her"
The difference between transracialism and transgenderism:
There's good reason to suppose transgenderism is biologically based and not just some idea you had, because gender is represented in our biology and each gender can has a latent potential to express aspects of the other gender. This is why HRT works. There's no reason that people would have a latent feeling about what it is to be a different race. There is no switch in your head that could go off and make you feel asian. If you feel asian that's because of experiences and not biology.
If there were a latent feel then you could imagine people could feel like a race that they were completely unaware of, and what would that even mean?
It's an obviously dumb idea. But it's dumb because race is not biologically represented, it's exclusively culturally represented.
EdwardMandellHouse So your argument is that gender is real and race is not.
@@TheFumblesOG They can, they're just extremely unlikely to
ragequitter93070 Nigga what
@@violetlavender9504 both are real, but both are also social constructs. They are based (but not the same as) on the biological concepts of sex and skin color. However, unlike sex which has influence on your hormones and a lot of other things, skin color only really affects your (you guessed it) skin and a few other minor facets related to skin. Edward's argument is that the difference between a black and white person is purely external, while the difference between a biological male and biological female is much more complex because of hormones.
@LocalToast That's not totally accurate. Primary sex characteristics cannot be undone once the development process is complete within the womb. You are right there. However, HRT does work against Secondary sex characteristics like breast tissue, fat deposits, muscle tone, bone physiology, and other sexual differences.
Interestingly enough, both of these are initiated by the same chemicals, just at different times of human development. But who cares about that, the real question we are all asking is whether its biologically imprinted into the brains of people whether they're male or female, or whether transgender people are socially engineered to feel that way... through media they consume, through people they interact with, or behaviors they inherit.
Imprinted seems to be the better argument to me at the moment.... intersex people exist, the brain is a sex organ, the brain is bombarded by hormones everyday... and the fact like 90% of transgender people already show signs at the age of 5-6, it all really points to biology so far.
I think it's really hard to attack transracialism without using the same arguments people use to attack transgenderism (namely, physical characteristics). The main difference is the location aspect: someone who is transracial claims to be from somewhere that their ancestry is not from, someone who is transgender could or could not have a biological cause, like having more opposite sex horomones naturally. But if you conceive of both gender and race as purely social constructs, it's impossible to logically argue that transgender people's experiences are valid and transracial people's experiences aren't. It forces the trans community to reckon with biology, which a lot of people are resistant to because science is hard so people would rather just leave it at "I'm a girl/boy because that's how I feel."
You can only transition to something within your own cultural framework, because to transition into something outside your culture is essentially just guessing. You are part of a culture by lived experience, not just identity. When it comes to gender, you can live the experience of someone who is a different gender to your assigned gender at birth. I can transition and live as a woman, and understand womanhood. On the flip side, how can I understand what it means to live as a (for example) an Indian person? I do not live in India, I have no direct cultural knowledge of India and I do not understand what it means to be Indian.
So in short, I can transition from male>female because there are men and women in my culture. I have the cultural framework to navigate gendered norms of women, because my culture has women. The same cannot be said for transitioning to a different set of racial norms, as there is no tangible way of me living that experience.
@@mysteryperson706 if lived experience is the key factor than either transgender are identifying with a gender experience they know nothing about oooooooorrrr there's no need to transition since they are all living what they desire to be.... Same goes for transracials... Too many double Standards if you ask me.
Fair point... but It can be countered. You cannot experience something that you aren't. Eg. A man can NEVER understand what it means to have ovulation or get pregnant. He might have some female characteristics in terms of gender roles in society but he doesn't know what it means to be a woman because he hasn't experienced it. What makes a gender isn't their roles in a culture or society is the very ESSENCE of their nature. A dog is a dog not because it barks. If a dog cannot bark doesn't mean it's not a dog anymore.
But again the whole foundation of the trans community is FEELING. And you cannot argue with someone's feelings hence if someone identifies as another race then let's all respect his feeling
@@jamiewalkerdine3705 idk dude I made this comment three years ago and my trans politics is so different now
Well, the biological differences between the races aren’t are distinct as they are between the sexes. There exists a solid foundation in the research that gender dysphoria has numerous biological causes. Any perceived discomfort with your own race would strictly be a result of how you are socialized and treated by society.
There is of course the clear similarity between the two where both gender and race are shaped by a persons relationship to society and qualified by said society's ideas of those categories. It seems like the main difference is that where race is (as far as we can tell) only a relationship between yourself and others, gender is experienced as a relationship between parts of yourself as well. Gender dysphoria refers to a conflict psychological self relationship, non dysphoria is a less conflictual self relationship etc.
". . . race is (as far as we can tell) only a relationship between yourself and others. . . "
Not according to one person I know who's transracial. All my friends love sci-fi and he says the same thing I hear from my two transgender friends: _If he were the only human on Earth (like in Mary Shelley's The Last Man) he would still feel out of place as his biological race._ * He would still feel like he needed to see the body parts we all see daily (like hands, feet, arms) as the race as which he identifies, not the race into which he was born.
And no, I don't understand that either; I'm just saying, it does exist even without other people to judge one by. He currently lives in a very remote place anyway, and he doesn't see people every day, but he still does what makes him look more like his identity-race. So it's more than just how he thinks he would feel if other people weren't around.
Seeking to understand the issues around this, is why I'm on this year-old video. So you may never see this reply; but if you really are a doctor, you may someday have a patient like my transracial friend, and I wanted to share this (and he's always said I can share it as long as I don't reveal any identifying details like his bio-race, identity-race, country, etc.)
Edit: *Just like my two transgender friends say they'd want to be the gender with which they identify, even if they were the only person on Earth.
zxy atiywariii I’m curious when he started feeling transracial? That’s my biggest thing, the vast majority of trans people have stories of their childhood, often times as young as 5, where they started directly saying they were in the wrong body, wrong name, wrong everything. Hence why gender dysphoria among some kids can last beyond years. I’ve yet to hear anything similar said by a “transracial” person. Not to mention the slight neurological differences between cis and trans brains
@@TheFreshTrumpet I finally saw this reply, and got around to asking him. He says he's felt that way from early childhood, specifically from the day when a daycare teacher was having kids "draw a picture of yourself".
The teacher kept a big bin of crayons on each table, and all the kids were invited to pick out the crayons that matched their eyes, hair, and skin -- as well as whatever color shirt or dress they were wearing that day, their shoes, and anything else they were wearing. Then the pictures would go up on the wall with each child's name, for Parents Day.
Of course the drawings wouldn't be great art, lol; but the point of the exercise was probably to help kids who were just learning to match colors and color words to real life.
This friend was the only kid who carefully picked out the colors he felt like he was, but he wasn't. And he was shocked and even scared when the teacher looked at his selection and said he was wrong (but gently, not mockingly) and showed him the "right" crayons he needed to accurately draw his hair and eyes and skin. (He said he'd picked out the correct colors for his shirt and jeans, so only his own colors were "wrong".)
He went home, spent a long time looking at himself in the mirror, and cried himself to sleep for many nights afterwards. He hated the picture on the school wall, and when he got it back at the end of the year he tore it to shreds and threw it in the trash.
So he said he knew even back at whatever age that was, 4 or 5. But he didn't know what to call himself, he just knew something was wrong.
Melanin II was made illegal in Australia. I wish their was a place I could go to get injections that are not as dangerous. I've been shaving my head for a while because I have naturally straight hair. As far as cosmetic surgery my nose is pointed so I don't know if I would change that either. The problem I find is that I don't know where to go to get this medical procedure done. That's not counting the fact that people don't take issue seriously. Also I just got out of student loan debt, so for now I can't progress forward. I'm just stuck right now but if the option was available in a first world country maybe then I could confidentiality have the procedure done.
she sounds so different but so the same its crazy
I believe that there are more trans-racial people than transgenders but because of the lack of terminology and concepts people are not identifying as such. In India, a lot of people have a white-complex i.e. they try to look a lot more European and a lot of darker Indians are made fun of by other Indians, they may not identify as trans-racial but this phenomenon is transracialism. Same goes for how Koreans get eye surgeries to get a more european looking eye than an asian one. Also many black people in Africa also try to get fairer or try to adopt white beauty standards. Thus to hand-wave the idea away just because people are not identifying as such was actually used in the past against transgenderism.
Wow, destiny got destiny in this destiny
As a trans person, every time they say 'transgenderism' I cringe.....
Why? Doesn't it just mean the state of being transgender or something? Sorry, i'm not a native speaker so maybe i'm missing something obvious here.
Comrade Ogilvy lol I'm cis but it still feels awkward because the "-ism" makes it sound like a political belief, not an identity.
Miikka Karhu being transgender is being transgender. "-ism" implies ideology, such as racism, feminism, nationalism, leftism.
Being trans is not an ideology.
@@violetlavender9504 one definition of ideology is "the ideas and manner of thinking characteristic of a group, social class, or individual" considering that being transgender comes down to ones beliefs that they are different from their biological self it would certainly fall under and ideology.
@@itstimeforlee Capitalism, a system of relation to means of production, distribution, and exchange, has not "saved billions", arguably the end result of that system of organisation has killed billions: th-cam.com/video/QnIsdVaCnUE/w-d-xo.html
I would be interested in an assessment of the article published in Hypatia arguing in favor of transracialism based on the logic that defines transgenderism. I think the hurdle is whether or not transracials are to be entertained as being valid and worthy of "protected class" status.
Description and title are different
14:18 the camera cuts - Wonder what was edited out
crazy how he had a debate without anyone screaming, nice :)
So the takeaway here is, the arguments are identical but because there are aren't so many of them, it is not to be taken seriously, and only when there are more then it should be considered? Doesn't that match the kind of arguments transphobes used to make when this issue came to light, I mean there aren't even that many transgender people anyway, so would it be valid for another person to say that because they make up less than half a % of the population they also should not be taken seriously? They needed to revisit this conversation it would be very interesting.
Exactly, it's totally dodges the point, and is a weird bandwagon fallacy.
Plus it's ironic af, considering that trans people make up such a small percentage of the population.
I've yet to hear any pro-trans person validly address this comparison.
Now answer the questions from my Super Chats.
Interesting discussion, but I feel as though contra forgets about how abysmal the number of people who identify as “genderfluid”, yet they regularly make a point to say that a society who makes room for these sorts of genderdeviants is more humane than one that doesn’t. I feel as though transracialism is one of those things where there’s just like a handful of people who are actually into it, and it’s just completely overblown. It is possible to have dysphoria for characteristics other than your gender, like there are people who have dysphoria over their limbs, so it is definitely within the realm of possibility that someone can feel dysphoric about their racial characteristics.
I'd like to see a discussion about 'Other-Kin'
If psychological conditions only have a reality in terms of the degree to which they describe something that stops an individual from functioning in a certain society, which makes sense, because many countries don't see the same or same level of certain conditions as the west does, transitioning or not comes down to the following; is it easier to decondition myself from feeling like gender x, or to transition my body to match gender x? Both paths seem like a legitimate way to resolve gender dysphoria to me depending on the individual, with neither being morally superior to the other. It's just a question of which is harder for any specific individual. Not to mention that there is also the possibility of changing society's perception of genders as a whole to become more inclusive to all expressions of gender, as a method reducing the harm cause by gender dysphoria.
I feel like if we look at trans-racialism in the same way, the same questions should be asked; what is easier, to transition or to use some kind of therapy or method to adapt your self-perception to something you're happy with? it seems that, subconsciously, Natalie is assuming that changing your mind more reasonable when it comes to trans-racialism based on the experiences she's read. That and it seems that there is less social pressure innately tied into race in our society than with gender.
Oh how far we've come. Now, mainstream journals have writers saying it's legitimate to identify as a wolf.
I think this argument is best understood in terms of cultural frameworks.
To summarise my thoughts to start with; you can transition from one gender to another WITHIN you cultural framework of gender, but you cannot transition to a different cultural framework of gender. For example, I could transition from UK Male to UK Female but could not transition from UK Male to Indian Female, as the culture around me remains that of the UK. To achieve this kind of cross-cultural transition, it would require;
-everyone around me to transition too, in order to treat me the same way as an Indian woman
-my cultural background changing enough for me to understand what it means to be Indian
-some comparable treatment to transgender transition in order to become physically more in line with what is typically considered Indian, which would also require a more rigid definition of such traits so as to be comparable to our cultural definitions of sex
and so on. At this point, we can already see how culture plays a massive part in identity and cannot be removed from this argument.
When I was living as male, I still grew up in a culture with gender. I lived that experience to some degree. We are not removed from the way other genders are treated and raised, and this influences our sense of gender as we grow up. I knew very well what was male and what was female for all aspects of life, and so when I came to transition I had an understanding of what it meant to be male within my culture.
The same cannot be said for race. I have no idea what it really means to live in as a different race. I can talk of some surface level things (Destiny uses music in this video, for example. I can see different races have different art associated with them) but I was not bought up 'learning' cultural attitudes to race in the way we learn cultural attitudes to gender. To use the music example again, I can listen to hip-hop and my parents will not tell me (well, hopefully not at least) that I can't do that because it's 'for blacks'. But if I wore a dress, I'd be told I couldn't do that because it is 'for women'. I have been taught that part of gender in a way we do not culturally teach race.
And so even within the context of gender transition, we see that it can only be achieved with the cultural framework you currently live in. You can move around within that framework, exploring it's different concepts of gender and even taking part in homogenised aspects of other cultures; but you cannot really live as another race so literally. That is to divorce yourself from your cultural framework and essentially guess as to what it means to be that race.
I don't think there's a significant difference between your understanding of an opposite gender and another race. Especially in racially mixed countries.
whoa destiny was destined to get destinied in this debate
The more I think about transracialism the more it kinda makes sense to me. There are some people who really strongly affiliate with another race from a very young age. I don't know why, but it happens. Nas Daily did a video of a British guy who wanted to be African since he was a little kid. He learned a lot of African languages, moved to Africa, and married an African woman. I have a cousin who did the same with China, now he moved back to America with his Chinese wife and teaches Chinese. I mean, there's a line between having a deep appreciation for language and culture and being that race, but if you look around you, identifying with different races and cultures is actually a pretty common experience. Sometimes it's just a phase people grow out of, but sometimes it lasts their whole life.
I don't know for sure what to think of this issue yet either, but I'm really curious where it is going...
But that’s significantly different from altering primary and secondary sex characteristics because of an innate feeling of gender dysphoria or a gender dysphoria that develops during adolescence.
It’s actually quite common for people from one ancestral group to be exposed to another ancestral groups mores and thinking and determine they like and identify with that external groups mores. But nothing about culture is inherent. It’s pure socialization. Your personality may fit better in different social network but the way humans interact as a group presupposes that the whole group feeds into and agrees intrinsically that the group activities they were born into are in 100 agreement with each person in that case. That’s preposterous. Some cultures are heavily influenced by groups of sociopaths within them. Some people in any group are almost always not going to feel as comfortable in the culture they are born into because culture can center in one set of behaviors but human inclination will plot x a spectrum. Actually this argument is starting seem to make sense for non binary people and starting to validate transracial identity because people have natural propensities that are unique person to person and depending on the culture they are born into the fit into the culture. So if it were culturally normal for women to climb trees and go to war and for men to stay home and bake I think I’d be transgender. I’m born female but I would not want to do any of that shit. Idk how I’d feel about my body. I think I’d be happy if I could just not do the female expectation of going to war etc. this is partly why I think transgender and non binary are different. I think transgender or gender identity hinges on a very specific part of the brain and general brain function we are yet to identify. I think non binary or trans racialism is the world accounting for culture being limiting and people being born vastly different than a culture might permit.
18:10 If we compare the number of 'transracials' currently to transsexual-gender populations of the 1930's-1950's (The first modern reassignment procedure began in 1951- there was a case before that in the 1930's but that ended in death and none were attempted until 1951). Contra leaves this element out of his argument.
in the case of transgender people, there have been multiple studies and there are solid theories that back up a biological cause
@aadhi gei not him, but look that shit up it's easy to find.
@@barnebyoconnell8176 please provide. I'm so sick of people claiming science is on their side only to just later say , search yourself.
I have searched about gender brains argument but that is a complete false logic.
Man and woman don't have gendered brains. We can't decide somebody's gender by getting a brain scan.
If there is any other science , please provide as I'm not able to find.
If someone forms a mental archetype of something, whether it be gender, race, or attack helicopter, and then somehow genuinely identifies with that image, then you kinda have to accept that about them or at least label them genuinely mentally ill. Especially if they can’t actually change it about themselves or the way they think.
But I wonder how contrapoints would argue now after her transtrenders video.
nice overlay
Almost 1 million people in the US are trans that's still a lot of people who don't feel comfortable in their skin or being themselves. Even if it is small in terms of percentage it's still a lot of people.
Also the real number would be much higher.
And majority of them where media or socially influenced as part of a growing group of people....
Transgender people has always existed but they were treated and got better, some grew out of it. It was called gender disphoria. But all of a sudden it's now a norm. So lets just accept transraceism
Isn't this all just about how we define our terms?
If gender is how you identify, then you can identify as a gender that is not your sex. If gender is your chromosomes, then you can't.
If race is how you identify, then you can identify as a gender that is not defined by your skin/ancestry/genes. If race is determined by genes or ancestry, then you can't.
You can because you can identify as a different thing. You can’t change your sex because it’s biological. Race is a social construct
Perhaps the reason for there being fewer white-to-black transracial people is that it's uncommon for a white child to be raised by black parents, whereas it is common for children to be raised solely by someone of the opposite gender, this may also speak to the fact that far more males wish to transition to female than visa versa, as it's far more likely for a boy to be raised by someone of the opposite gender due to the high rates of single mother families, and low rates of single father families.
I think the larger difference between transgenderism and transracialism is that we have correlated certain parts of the brain where they are within one general range of shape for cis and trans men, and another range of shape for cis and trans women. As in, there is a certain degree of brain wiring that causes people to have some degree of seeing themselves as and to identify with a body that is typically male vs. typically female. And this makes sense because there would be an advantageous reason for that ability to identify with yourself and to want to identify with others of those similar traits, and as distinctly not as part of another group of people who themselves have similar traits. And all societies, as well as most of prevalent nature, has adapted itself for binary sexual competition. So it would make sense that nature would cause animals with big brains capable of some degree of identification of itself and others to preserve sets of genes that would tend to cause individual animals to identify themselves as their own sex, so as to help them to act in evolutionarily beneficial ways regarding sexual conflict.
I think contra is wrong and I’d be curious to see how her perspective on this has changed now that she’s transitioned bc while men may not feel communal, women are way more communal. It’s why most arguments against trans people center trans women and not trans men, bc while “manhood” is seen as this isolating solitary thing in general, “womanhood” is far more communal and so trans women are viewed as “infiltrating”.
Destiny seems to really like Contrapoints.
Race is not only a social construct, it's a very American one in the way you're describing it here. Sure, dividing people up into social groups depending on ethnical and cultural features is common around the world but the way it's done in the usa is not represented elsewhere and I personally find it especially stupid since there's even statistics being kept about how many of a certain 'race' there are in this town etc. Comparing this to gender I feel isn't really justifiable since gender as a concept is the same around the world to a much higher degree than race, and also because it is at least somewhat rooted in the way our brains work. The basics of traditional gender roles (~men are strong and women are caring) are found in pretty much every culture all around the world.
And it's worth noting that even with transition, you can only really achieve it within the gendered norms of your own cultural framework. I am in the UK and so transition into a woman under what that means in the UK, I can't transition into cultural areas I have no place in. Not even in an ideological sense but a literal one; there is no way I could live out the gendered norms of a woman in (for example) India.
So even looking at gender transition, you cannot transition into other cultures. So the race comparison is kind of moot to me.
1. There might be biological influences on preferences, and people who like rap, or panflute music, or different foods, (or whatever), might have unique brain patterns on average.
2. Many of these traits might be significantly more common among different cultural and racial groups (social constructs) than others.
e.g. some taxi drivers have unique brain patterns, on average, because they are made to memorize the same map.
Would Destiny and Contra support trans-racialism if this were shown to be true?
If not, why not?
Really good stuff!
Seems very reasonable to me.
Wait, can anyone explain to me what exactly the problem with transracialism is?
No this was very helpful :)
There's really no problem with it.
Now do transabled, more cases of this than transracial
I think the difference is between ancestry and culture. This distinction is similar to gender and sex. The only case where I could see someone being truly transracial is with albinos and other skin disorders/deformities, where they're ancestry is different from there appearance.
But this is saying ancestry matters the way terfs say biology matters.
On gender as an "individual level" versus race as "communal level" -- Is anyone here familiar with the phenomenon of a white person being declared black *by a black community*. As an undergrad I knew a white woman who had married a black guy and been declared black by his family. I also know two white high schools teachers who taught at predominately black schools and were declared black by their classes. To me, this has far more credibility than transracialism, but I was curious if anyone else here had heard/experienced similar anecdotes.
Oh, I agree with you. I just find it fascinating that the idea of being declared black by a community exists at all.
Being declared black doesn't exist at all. As a black person, there are times when we view some whites as allies, but there's no such thing as an honorary black person. Can you define what It means for a white person to be declared black and what that affords them?
Contra's argument in this video that there aren't enough people that would be transracial is invalid when you consider that there are enough people to justify having specific words for different types of cross-racial identification, like wigger, weaboo, koreaboo (are there any for other races to white, or just white to other races? I know a lot of Asians who identify strongly with black culture, but idk if there's a word for it...).
Exactly. I mean, How many zirs or two spirits are there?
More of 2 reasonable people talking pls
tfw more than half the comments are people complaining about "destiny got ---ed in this debate" jokes
can't wait for more than half the comments to be people complaining about people complaining about "destiny got ---ed in this debate" jokes
you're already ahead of the curve bro complaining about people complaining about people complaining about the memes
13:00 What about family or parent expectation of for example baby boy not to express his boyhood? Later manhood? Like the mother who has contempt for men becouse she was abused by her father, she would project that onto her son. He would grew up with the same or even worse pressure to change his identity than a cultural one. The same goes for girl and then women to not express her girliness or womenhood.
While this may be sad on an individual level, I do not think it is in any way systemic. I think what you are raising here is a non-issue in the grand scheme of things. It's conjecture.
If you think it is a serious issue, please give some kind of citation of it being a large scale problem
Wow, debate meme got meme debate meme meme.
'If in 10000 years if we have 100000 people i MIGHT take it seriously' brother you long by then wtf R/gatekeeping
Zinnia Jones made a video about this. So...
Wow memestiny didn't even have to debate this guy. He just debated himself.
He should consider moderating more debates. He's really good at it.
Makes sense if you see ContaPoints' content. Quite good at seeing and understanding perspectives. Which is essentially debating yourself, yes lol.
I agree that racial categories are largely cultural, but does Contra state that with the assumption that culture is more solidly defined than biological sex? Not so sure I'd agree with that. Culture is much more loosely defined than sex
I believe I am something, there fore I am that something - Socrates 2.0
Dass sich mehr Menschen mit dem jeweils anderen Geschlecht identifizieren als mit einer anderen Rasse hat mit der biologischen Ebene der Hormone zu tun, die eine direkte Wirkung auf die Psyche haben können.
Some possible reasons race and gender could be considered different in this context:
1. People are often segregated geographically, ancestrally, and in housing by race but not by gender. As a result, transitioning race, especially into a minority group, can feel like a privileged outsider imposing themself.
2. Transitioning white to black unfortunately evokes blackface, even if that is not the intent.
3. Arguably, the sum disadvantages of being a racial minority have a greater dependence on the entire history of one's life and their parents' lives. Even someone who perfectly transitions race has not experienced that history.
4. Historically, race discrimination and it's lasting efforts have arguably been greater than for gender and so it feels unfair to change teams.
Put women in place for black and reread back to yourself 🙄
@@apocalypsepow doesn't really make a difference
These are incredibly weak arguments bro Jesus.
@@krishiebobbybill3209 How so? It's a three year old comment and I sometimes disagree with stuff I wrote that long ago but this one honestly holds up. In particular, #1 and #3 are really good arguments (although they're essentially the same argument).
On the contrary, if we normalize transracialism it can't be used as a blugeon against the trans community. :x
It's kind of like how when the gay community became accepted, they tried to put distance between themselves and the trans community, so that they wouldn't be tainted by their stigma.
But if we normalize it, it can't be used that way because its become normal. And I think it's more important that people be allowed to be themselves than that we deprive bigots of one of their never-ending words or phrases.
There’s a very important dimension here that wasn’t mentioned. It’s way more well accepted that different genders be treated and perceived differently by society than different races. If you’re transgendered, you want to be called the pronouns you identify with and to some degree, you want behave in a way that’s consistent with your gender. There are no universally acknowledged roles, pronouns, or behaviors that are associated with particular races.
There totally is perceived roles and behaviour- in terms of hierarchy and culture respectively
@@Metaporphsycosis not universally accepted ones
@Daniele Esposito racial stereotypes are not accepted differences
@Daniele Esposito yes, there are generally accepted ways of acting and presenting as masculine and feminine. No, there are not generally accepted ways of acting and presenting as black, Asian, etc. Yes, stereotypes exist. I’m sure you can imagine the effectiveness of a movement of people who want to write on the census that they’re Asian because they’re good at math.
"There are no universally acknowledged roles, pronouns, or behaviors that are associated with particular races." Assuming this blatantly bigoted statement were true and race has no roles or behaviours assosiated with it, wouldn't this just validate trans-racial people even more? If race has no roles, no responsibilities, no behaviours, nothing important attached to it, then whats the issue with letting people transition races? To make race seem unimportant, just validates the trans-racial argument, because then it becomes an argument of "why not?"
does destiny know the difference between 20 and 200000 people. he is refuting these number based arguments but totally forgets the scale.
delete this comment clown
I can't believe you called her "buddy" at the end. It's so diminutive. I want to abolish it from language.
Whilst I see where you're coming from, I think he used it in the sense of "dude" and "guys" (as in "hey guys"), not trying to misgender her but using a colloquilism that he uses a lot when he has conversations with other people. I do see how it might be horrible for someone who's trans though.
@@samk7625 Oh I didn't even pick up on the male connotation. I'm just irrationally triggered by the word "buddy" especially when people so much younger than me use it to refer to me >:(
Alright buddy
me when i pick a non human race in an rpg
they both need to slow the frick down
25:02 I don't think I've ever heard any non binary person do this either...
The Crusts there are a lot of nonbinary TH-camrs, for example, who do this if you need this experience explained to you.
MILO MINNEAPOLIS
My racial identity is almost 100% social. I say almost 100 because I believe melanin has a psychological component but I don’t think it exists outside of the melanin which is a chemical reaction. It’s a strange perception sure (potentially problematic but being problematic doesn’t mean it isnt) Anyway is mostly social. My understanding of myself as a woman is beyond socialization. There are aspects to it that are social but I feel certain that significant aspects of my female identity, which need not be hyper fem, is very much inherent and very much different in the mind than my brothers or father. I’ve watched the way men think in dramatically different ways than women also partly social but we see so much x cultural gender similarities. But with my brothers and I we weren’t socialized in our homes in vastly different ways but we had naturally different propensities ( still potentially social) but intellectually I’ve mainly watched them have a tendency to view the world in very similar kinds of reasoning ( my brothers were all raised in different homes) but still used similar patterns of thinking that I totally disagreed with and most women in our private conversations would discuss the matter in totally different ways. I think there is deeper psychological aspect to the functioning of male and female brains. I don’t think there is the same inherent functioning in races. It doesn’t make sense because it arbitrary delineation. Sex is not arbitrary. Estrogen and testosterone interact with the brain in different ways.
About those last lines, I tried to make a similar argument but then I realised that transmen don't necessarily have a different hormonal balance than women, at least pre treatment.
Points contra at Tiny des
Without watching the video: Gender is not inheritable, race is. They are very different concepts on a fundamental level.
Life is DEWG Race is inheritable? Surely you mean it's heritable?
Race is made up. If you're 1% black you're BLACK. It's never the other way around it's classification on how not-white you are and serves to just put people quickly into boxes for rarely useful purposes.
"Race" is not inheritable, lol. No one can see if you're "50% black" or "25% hispanic" or something. I am 50% Cuban and my "race" is probably "white." All of these terms are insanely arbitrary.
@Destiny
I suppose we associate these traits as arbitrary because the definition of race itself can be somewhat inconsistent or ambiguous within the scientific community?
Socially, I understand that I could go get my blood checked at a lab and be told that I have the biological makeup that would be associated with the term of hispanic largely (and many other things on my mother's side)- and without any deeper understanding, I would say "I inherited this from my dad's side genetically". However, I think what you're saying, and from what I can look up and find, it seems that even many scientists debate this topic heavily because there is no agreed metric for population or qualifier for race itself, since many argue on ecological, biological, or evolutionary paradigms?
If I'm correct in understanding this, it seems like this kind of topic is a little difficult to discuss because we've had such a long history with this arbitrary sense or identity of what race means- and to be told that it is a social construct, I could see a lot of people, even those who are seeking work as scientists, could take offense to this idea.
Hopefully I'm not reading too much into this. This is definitely something that alone has caused me to think harder on the issue itself.
Very interesting discussion, buddy.
@Rogkun Gaming Race is arbitrary because as Destiny is pointed out ,he's 50% Cuban but treated as white. Obama was 50% black and treated as black. You can't see someones genetic makeup by the color of their skin. If Destiny had a lightskined black father and mother he'd be seen as more white then Obama despite being more african in genetics.
If you can't reliably categorize another race by sight, which is how things are done socially, then it's pointless. Especially now that Destiny is literally a separate race from both white and cubans. So is he, white, cuban, or mixed race, or something new altogether? Then you'd have to reliable show that he's the race he's claimed in all situations around the world with some relative accuracy.
milo minneapolis, lol.
When considering the need for medical or psychological intervention for trans-whatever issues, I like to consider a world where any trans concern can be immediately and completely addressed. So, if you feel like a different gender, or race, or whatever, you could just snap your fingers and become that thing. The question is, which of these transformations would require destruction of the human experience, due to transforming into an inadequate apparatus for such a thing? For example, if you were to transform yourself into an attack helicopter, then it would essentially be suicide since an attack helicopter doesn't have a brain complex enough to harbor human consciousness. Same with a wolf, or a cat, or any animal other than human; these things have brains incompatible with humans, and transforming yourself into one of them would be like trying to run Windows 10 on a UNIVAC. These trans feelings, therefore, can only either be delusional at best, or a plea for self-destruction at worst. Shifting into someone of a different race or gender, however, involves no such destruction of the self, so it seems more valid to treat as a genuine concern.
destiny really got memed in this debate
Both went into this argument with bad faith and biased. Not a good discussion.
Transracialism is a term that already exists and has been in use, but it doesn't mean someone from one race identifying from another race; it's a term referring to someone of one race who was adopted by and raised by parents of a different race.
HAHAHA DESTINTY REALLY WAS PRESENT IN THIS DEBATE!!!! HAHA, GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD LE XDDDD NICE MEMES IN THE COMMENTS KEEP IT UP!!!!!!!!!!
R/Thatism endorces.
Throwing a jab at weebs ;)
On the Trans-Apache Helicopter - I think this is about not giving a fuck and conforming to the military industrial complex and not caring if the world burns. Which I do identify as more than I would like. For the way I look at Transgenderism is in the context of "emotional labor" - whereby someone has to act in a way other than how they feel like for example a woman serving coffee in a cafe having to be nice to customers even if they are oppressed by their boss or the customer is being less than polite... If circumstances are bad enough then they would experience "emotional Burn Out" or "dysphoria" (which is basically feeling deeply unwell psychology can also cause physical symptoms) So being transgender would be emotional labor that makes a person unwell because they are having to act like the gender they don't feel the are (I have another comment I left explaining this in more detail). I think emotional labor is a much better way of assessing things in general than "intersectionalism", which can be just something to know about without understand feelings relating to disablities or poverty or race. A good example with status is the hormone gonadotrophin which (see wikipedia) increases in a person according to social status - reduced gonadotrophin effects people biologically in terms of sex drive etc... so it is not suprising that say a working class person ignores their true status in society by adopting things they see in marketing (such as Fast and Furious) rather than thinking that President Trump actually doesn't give a fuck about the working classes. Donald Trump sucks at emotional labor when giving interviews to a critical press.
Holy shit Destiny got so rekt in this debate #DestinyTears
I think this video will upset the transracial community.
I really appreciate the effort at a good faith argument, particularly by Destiny, but you can't expect to get very far in this kind of discussion without defining a standard of "objective truth". I'm not even sure if the word "objective" ever came up in the discussion specifically, but these guys were definitely dancing around it more than once, and it is at the center of the trans issue.
The trans issue is all about the question of what the concept of gender really means or refers to, where one's sense of gender comes from in general, and by what standard a given gender identification is valid or invalid. In other words, it is a question of the objectivity of gender. Some people believe it is objective, some people believe it is subjective, and almost no one has a coherent idea of what it even means for a given identification to be objective. Instead many of us take for granted some muddled conception of objectivity that we osmosed from our culture.
Our culture is fundamentally confused about this issue, both colloquially, and academically, as surprising as that may seem given the importance of the question. Indeed, what we have inherited culturally, from the enlightenment and everything that's happened since, is a jumbled mess. It consists of the ponderings and suppositions of many different famous philosophers who disagree with each other about this and other issues of epistemology, none of whom had it straight. Yet it is par for the course today, philosophically, to pre-suppose either that these issues are 100% sorted out, or that they never can be sorted out and we somehow have to carry on a discussion without a philosophical grounding. That is a disaster.
For your purposes of clarifying your own views on issues of epistemology, I would like to recommend the American philosopher Ayn Rand, her most prominent pupil Leonard Peikoff, and for a modern representative available on TH-cam, Charles Tew.
Wouldn't the difference be that race is a social construct almost entirely informed by Society's and other people's perception of you, while Gender also has a strong personal component stemming from identity?
Like Obama might identify as white just as much as black, but society will always see the darker skin tone first and judge him off of that. Just because a white man identities as black doesn't mean he will face any of the discrimination that a black person would face. Race from my layman's perspective seems to revolve around our treatment of people from differing groups. Race doesn't really exist beyond the society's concept of it as we are all the same species, while gender has biology, society and identity at play.
Funny thing is, those that say race is a social construct make a pretty big deal about which "race" they identify with. So which is it to them? Kind of like saying "Ice cream is a social construct and different flavours don't exist, but chocolate is definitely my favourite and tastes the best. I want to switch out this vanilla scoop for some of that chocolate please, because it's different but it's the same you know." At the end of the day races are different. Different heights, physical body parts, skin colour, bone structure, tolerances, strengths and weaknesses etc. It's not just a social construct. People just want to feel so equal that nothing matters anymore and nothing is special. Sad truth guys, but there are unique things is this world that not everyone can have and be or choose. Culture and religion's can, but your physical body and appearance and mind will be what you're dealt with. And we're all different in small and big ways.
Well, as far as it comes to gender, historically women have been subjected to a lower place in society based on their biology. Reared to care for others and raise children. (of course part of what I'm saying may projecting backwards current conceptions for lack of full historical research).
So biological reproductive roles defined social roles at a previous point in time, and from that point, one could naturally assume traits to be based on this biological reproductive role and through the social functions attributed to women as a class.
Today, despite nominal equality and the fight against sex roles and stereotypes, we still associate certain learned traits to one or other sex and society praises or punishes women and men depending on their personality, habits and interests for falling into the wrong stereotypical box. These traits and stereotypes are a learned factor, we are forced into these boxes because of our biology.
Considering that when you look at peoples epiphanies, the moment that people "discover" themselves as being women, you get claims like Julia Serano, who states:
"It wasn’t until the age of eleven that I consciously recognized these subconscious feelings as an urge or desire to be female. The first incident that led to this discovery happened late one night, after engaging in a losing battle with insomnia. I found myself inexplicably compelled to remove a set of white, lacy curtains from the window and wrap them around my body like a dress."
It is in part because people who trans and identify as women consider that women, instead of being attributed and socialized into oppressive stereotypes on the basis of their biology (with punishment for not conforming), are women because of the things they like, their traits, their interests, etc. (Serano actually seems attributes sexism to punishment of femininity instead of non-conforming to gender stereotypes, though I haven't really gone through the meat of her work yet).
The gradual shift to the terminology "gender identity" actually happened in the 90s, where previously explanations to sex roles were more based on social-constructionist assumptions (of course, many times more nuanced than what I explained at the start). Part of the difference of the acceptance of transgender and transracial stems thus from, not only the somewhat different histories of racial and sex-based oppression, but also by a conscious attempt to reconceptualize the social category of women out of practical existence - effacing the needs of women who were born women (I can go about that more later on if need be).
Where previous waves of feminism concentrated on fighting the categorization of women, which attributed traits to women as a class that is (supposedly because of biology, for example, "brain sex") inferior to men who "naturally" have different traits, the current ideas of gender tend to reify gender stereotypes (I was "born male", but I like make up, girl toys, feeling pretty, thus I am a woman) at the expense of people who do not conform to the stereotypes that are attributed to them because of their physical traits.
A social construct exists just like concept of money exists. Without a society of intellectually sufficient beings money is just a piece of paper, coins, or 1's and 0's in a computerized banking system. We as a society give it meaning which directly impacts peoples lives, whether that means people can afford to feed their family or a man gets shot because people are afraid of people with his skin color. The good thing about it is that social constructs can be changed over time to make them more fair or suitable to the environment. People identify with their race or economic class because we assign meaning to them even though they may not matter to other societies in the same way.
And I don't know too much about race biological differences. But 90% of genetic diversity comes from Africa, so Im not too sure it's fair to divide us by skin color
(Sorry for the wall of text, part of the reason for the length is because I'm trying to clarify my thoughts on the subject, so some things may seem tangential)
I would also like to add, as per lesbian feminist scholar and political activist Sheila Jeffreys, back in the 80s' when there were "transexuals" (a term which used to be more the norm) who tried to enter women-only spaces (for example womens only political meetings), it was seen as a form of colonialism, of men wanting to appropriate womens struggles out of male entitlement:
"Forty years ago radical feminist thinkers and activists were very clear in their view that persons who were born biologically male and raised as males, but sought recognition as women in the women’s liberation movement, were engaged in a form of colonialism and should be ejected."
With the conceptual shift to gender, one can imagine that depending on how people claiming transracialism play their cards, it would be a thing that could become more widely accepted socially - say such a thing were to fall off the radar of mainstream anti-racism, with just enough devils advocaterie and self-righteousness.
personally I think the difference between race and gender is that race is completely how the society perceives someone while gender is both internal and external perception. so a person can not identify as a specific race.
If it was possible to completely change your physical features to that of another race, you will fit the social construct of whatever that race is, so you'll end up essentially being that race.
I don't know why you're bringing up internal perception? I don't see the relevance.
So if its a small enough minority then its okay to dismiss them. Really hard hitting stuff here.
I don’t care how weird something is. If someone wants something that isn’t hurting anyone let them do it.
Finally .Tow American people I can stomach. And a good topical discussion. Heraaa !
Hopefully there is more of them.
Destiny isn't real and isn't valid in this debate
I think the comparison between transgender and transracial is invalid in that someone's gender identity is influenced by both the individual and society, in that one's gender expression is influenced by one's psychology and societal expectations. Whereas, race, if independent from societal pressures, has no effect on the psychology of an individual. Hence, race roles are entirely socially constructed without biological basis, and so (I'd imagine) could be filled by anyone regardless of race. Someone call me out if I went wrong somewhere.
like, imagine you were, as a man placed in an undetectable and totally realistic and inescapable woman costume from birth. you'd experience dysphoria. the same wouldn't be true if you were a white person put in a black person costume from birth, right?
(to clarify, I don't know)
Will Destiny ever shut up about taking a psych class in highschool?
When people in their 20's have an understanding of basic psych, sure.
Destiny got 'em
that's pretty rich considering you hardly have a basic understanding of it, Destiny
ouch destiny got REKT in this comment section
Perseph dude, he's only mentioning it because he's not an expert. However, people like yourself have an even lower undersranding of psychology that they get triggered when people use scary big words that you should have known in high school. smh
Density is a swarthy looking creature.