Akshay Patni If we lived in a utopia of constant bliss, then how could we ever appreciate that bliss without the contrast of suffering? I feel like even the idea of bliss makes no sense if there is not some sort of non-bliss to compare it to. He's taking for granted that bliss exists as an objective fact, and I don't think that's true.
gandolphcarter Humans are good at framing phenomena in contrast with another phenomena - how can there be good without evil, light without darkness, soft without hard, black without white, bliss without suffering? is it some evolutionary bias to make sense of things in contrast with other things, or the weight of status-quo bias? probably these and other things. If we are ethically serious about bliss and suffering, we need to check our intuitions - Check this video: David Pearce - Effective Altruism - Phasing Out Suffering "Can Bliss Exist Without Suffering? : If one is to retain critical insight, then it is vital to retain some form of informational sensitivity but one can still have the functional analogs of, say, sadness or disappointment & anxiety without having the nasty raw feels. In principle for instance even if one has a future life based on gradients of intelligent bliss, you can still have the analogs of disappointment - but none of the nastiness that is experienced today. Now some people would respond here and say 'Well surely if one has the functional analogs of disappointment or sadness, then happiness is purely relative' - but this doesn't actually seem to be the case, because tragically as one sees today, there are some people who endure chronic suffering / chronic depression, and some of the worst depressives - they are simply never happy - they spend their whole lives below hedonic zero. And it would be cruel to suggest that in some sense they aren't really unhappy because they haven't got happiness to compare their misery with."
Akshay Patni, apologies for the figurative use of language by a secular Western ethicist. But the Jain practice of refusing to harm other sentient beings deserves to be emulated more widely - and extended with modern technology.
I stumbled upon this video because I was trying to find out how to pronounce "Jain." (It turns out that there doesn't seem to be a single consistent pronunciation -- depending on who you listen to, it can rhyme with "mine," "main," or occasionally even "men.") But I had heard of David Pearce before -- or at least the idea he is promoting, the idea that humans should work to end suffering in all sentient beings -- so it was interesting to hear the man himself talking. And what I couldn't help noticing is what a very strange affect the man has! I don't know if it's Asperger syndrome, or what, but he does not talk like a normal person, but instead like an extreme parody of your stereotypical disconnected, unworldly academic. I can't imagine this helps his cause any!
hummingfrog It depends on the audience - David's language is verbose - not sure about the intended meaning of unworldly academic here. David Pearce's ideas have a growing following - and to my mind not just amongst Aspergers. Though if the messenger does not gel with you, what about the message?
Adam Ford As far as the message is concerned, I would say that on the day the human race acquires godlike wisdom, understanding, and power, that's the day we should begin to think seriously about trying to eliminate all suffering from the animal kingdom. Any time before that is just *way* premature. My point about Pearce's affect was that he does not come across as a normal person, and that's going to have an impact on how people receive his ideas. There's a common saying that there are some ideas that are so stupid that only an intellectual could believe them. This idea certainly looks like it might be a candidate, and the messenger isn't helping.
hummingfrog, no one is proposing a Five-Year-Plan for ending free-living animal suffering. Ending factory-farming and slaughterhouses surely comes first. Rather, the question is whether we should aim to preserve the cruelties of traditional Darwinian life in our future wildlife parks - or aim for compassionate stewardship instead. The case for using infotech and biotechnology to phase out the biology of suffering in human and nonhuman animals alike would be just as strong if scribbled on a cornflakes packet or sung at the opera. So while it’s easy to get hung up on the medium - or indeed any quirks of the messenger - let’s focus on the substantive issues.
Pradeep Mehta, recall that Jains aim never to hurt another sentient being by though or deed. They are famous in the West mainly for brushing the ground in front of their feet rather than risking inadvertently treading on an insect. The term "high-tech Jainism" is here being used - metaphorically - for a world where infotech and biotechnology safeguard the well-being of all sentience.
How would we even realize that we're in bliss if bliss is all we ever know?
Please elaborate your question... I will try to reply you... I am Jain living in India.
Akshay Patni If we lived in a utopia of constant bliss, then how could we ever appreciate that bliss without the contrast of suffering? I feel like even the idea of bliss makes no sense if there is not some sort of non-bliss to compare it to. He's taking for granted that bliss exists as an objective fact, and I don't think that's true.
gandolphcarter
Humans are good at framing phenomena in contrast with another phenomena - how can there be good without evil, light without darkness, soft without hard, black without white, bliss without suffering? is it some evolutionary bias to make sense of things in contrast with other things, or the weight of status-quo bias? probably these and other things.
If we are ethically serious about bliss and suffering, we need to check our intuitions - Check this video: David Pearce - Effective Altruism - Phasing Out Suffering "Can Bliss Exist Without Suffering? : If one is to retain critical insight, then it is vital to retain some form of informational sensitivity but one can still have the functional analogs of, say, sadness or disappointment & anxiety without having the nasty raw feels. In principle for instance even if one has a future life based on gradients of intelligent bliss, you can still have the analogs of disappointment - but none of the nastiness that is experienced today. Now some people would respond here and say 'Well surely if one has the functional analogs of disappointment or sadness, then happiness is purely relative' - but this doesn't actually seem to be the case, because tragically as one sees today, there are some people who endure chronic suffering / chronic depression, and some of the worst depressives - they are simply never happy - they spend their whole lives below hedonic zero. And it would be cruel to suggest that in some sense they aren't really unhappy because they haven't got happiness to compare their misery with."
Akshay Patni Hi there, good to hear! I would be interested in reading your view of David Pearce's work
Akshay Patni, apologies for the figurative use of language by a secular Western ethicist. But the Jain practice of refusing to harm other sentient beings deserves to be emulated more widely - and extended with modern technology.
jainism is best
I stumbled upon this video because I was trying to find out how to pronounce "Jain." (It turns out that there doesn't seem to be a single consistent pronunciation -- depending on who you listen to, it can rhyme with "mine," "main," or occasionally even "men.")
But I had heard of David Pearce before -- or at least the idea he is promoting, the idea that humans should work to end suffering in all sentient beings -- so it was interesting to hear the man himself talking. And what I couldn't help noticing is what a very strange affect the man has! I don't know if it's Asperger syndrome, or what, but he does not talk like a normal person, but instead like an extreme parody of your stereotypical disconnected, unworldly academic. I can't imagine this helps his cause any!
hummingfrog It depends on the audience - David's language is verbose - not sure about the intended meaning of unworldly academic here. David Pearce's ideas have a growing following - and to my mind not just amongst Aspergers.
Though if the messenger does not gel with you, what about the message?
Adam Ford As far as the message is concerned, I would say that on the day the human race acquires godlike wisdom, understanding, and power, that's the day we should begin to think seriously about trying to eliminate all suffering from the animal kingdom. Any time before that is just *way* premature. My point about Pearce's affect was that he does not come across as a normal person, and that's going to have an impact on how people receive his ideas. There's a common saying that there are some ideas that are so stupid that only an intellectual could believe them. This idea certainly looks like it might be a candidate, and the messenger isn't helping.
hummingfrog, no one is proposing a Five-Year-Plan for ending free-living animal suffering. Ending factory-farming and slaughterhouses surely comes first. Rather, the question is whether we should aim to preserve the cruelties of traditional Darwinian life in our future wildlife parks - or aim for compassionate stewardship instead.
The case for using infotech and biotechnology to phase out the biology of suffering in human and nonhuman animals alike would be just as strong if scribbled on a cornflakes packet or sung at the opera. So while it’s easy to get hung up on the medium - or indeed any quirks of the messenger - let’s focus on the substantive issues.
What all you talking about? Jainism? Do some research before you speak
Pradeep Mehta, recall that Jains aim never to hurt another sentient being by though or deed. They are famous in the West mainly for brushing the ground in front of their feet rather than risking inadvertently treading on an insect. The term "high-tech
Jainism" is here being used - metaphorically - for a world where infotech and biotechnology safeguard the well-being of all sentience.
What all you talking about? Jainism? Do some research before you speak
Pradeep Mehta What is Jainism?
I think the term can be used metaphorically and still be useful.