Thing is, if Ferrari were competent then Massa would have scored points in Singapore and won the title. The safety car didn't affect Ferrari's ability to be clowns in the pit lane.
@@Warrioruk this news is not about how massa drove it is how the FIA covered it up for 7 months Ecclestone and then FIA president Max Mosley were made aware of the allegation that year already but it didn’t come to light until the following season. “Max Mosley and I were informed during the 2008 season what had happened in the race in Singapore,” he recalled to F1 Insider. “Piquet Junior had told his father Nelson that he had been asked by the team to drive into the wall at a certain point in order to trigger a Safety Car phase and such to help his team-mate Alonso.
We've had drivers literally crash into each other on purpose to win the championship (cough cough senna) and that win wasn't revoked so this definitely won't be
I don't think they should change it. A decided factor for me is that Massa didn't directly lose points because of crashgate, it was because of Ferrari being Ferrari. Both he and Lewis where equal competitors in the a race that happend to have a safety car, there is always some luck it that.
@@ishqiahmed4315 Its no one's fault, the lights were new and ofc unreliable, you can't blame Ferrari for this just because they have 0.1 braincells today
So which one, the one where Massa would be an F1 champion at just a few months old, two and a half years old or six and a half years old? Either way, it would make him the youngest ever F1 champion in history and a record that I am fairly confident will never be broken.
We might as well get rid of all of piquets, he’s a horrible human being, so Alain Prost Is a 5 time, Nigel Mansell is a 2 time, and Carlos Ruetemann is a 1 time, Massa gets 2008, but to make Hamilton happy, we can give him 2021, and Verstappen will have more then enough Titles by the end of his career to be satisfied.Everyone is happy
That is the part of it that really never has gotten the attention it deserves, it actually worked. The odds of it working out were so mindbogglingly remote that the fact it did work out is just wild.
Easy, Alonso stopped just before the crash happened and everyone else then pitted which advanced Alonso to the front of the grid behind the safety car...
@@CMike44 i think they had a clause in alonsos contract that allowed him to leave early if he didn't get a win so they had to fix the race to keep him for another year
No because the entire crash caused the safety car, people pitted positions changed, if the FIA does overturn/ void Singapore the entire race would not count. That would lead to massa gaining the championship with 6 wins, 97 points to Hamiltons 5 wins, 92 points. Do I think it should be change no there should be some sort of statue of limitations, but with Bernie revealing he knew about crashgate the FIA should put an asterisk by Singapore and the Hamiltons 2008 win.
@@wow-sham1300 I get that dunking on Hamilton is a favourite pass time for a lot of people but is an unbelievably bad take. Why should Rosberg and Williams lose their 2nd place in the same race? The only fair outcome would be Renault losing the win and that would result in Hamilton winning the WDC by a bigger margin.
@@wow-sham1300 since when has 1 person cheating voided the results for everyone else ? I get that you're saying what would be fair, if a driver bowling balls 5 cars they don't void the result.
@@AndrewPeddie I do agree with you that’s why I said the FIA should put an asterisk and then change the rules to prevent this kinda like they did with Abu Dhabi and all other controversial races.
I think the "fairest" way of looking at the situation is that neither Verstappen nor Hamilton was involved in any cheating which may have affected the winner of 2008/2021 which means they can't be punished for it and get stripped of a title each.
If they did end up voiding the Singapore GP and people tried to do the same for Abu Dhabi, Verstappen would still keep his championship if the race results were ignored, both him and Lewis were equal on points and Verstappen had more wins, so he would've won it anyway
he had more second place finishes as well so if for whatever reason first place finishes were excluded he'd of still one, it was pretty interesting learning all the ways Max still would have won if Mercedes got their way and had excluded the final race. I also remember being met with a lot of abuse when explaining that to people at the time, it has since somewhat ruined my enjoyment of the sport all around, all because people didn't understand how the sport they watch works. same with people saying Leclerc going off at the casio triangle and getting a deserved penalty was somehow FIA favoritism, sports really bring out the worst in human beings.
@Spinni You do realize if adu dhabi 2021 was voided, Max would have still won due to having more wins? It's not just a cop out to get lewis an 8th title.
Given Hamilton had no part in the race fixing, to take his title would be to basically to say he has to face consequences for what someone else did. Also given Ferrari is the reason Massa ended the race where he did, he's basically asking for his own team's ineptitude to not count. Which, yeah there's all sorts of things wrong with that.
@@leonmalaga16 Massa would need to provide strong evidence for nullifying the race. Through legal action he might get that information. If I was in his place, I would. At least to try and know all the facts, whether or not it warrants a redress to the race result.
@@leonmalaga16 I think the argument is more that some teams unfairly lost point too. So some people already got punished unfairly and had to face the consequences of other people cheating even though it was on track. But I agree, nothing will come from this. It's only Massa talking in the first place, the FIA will never do anything themselfs and I highly doubt they failed to make sure they have left some legal loopholes open. Driver and teams probably agree that the FIA can do whatever they want when they join the F1.
@@LunnarisLP every time a team cheats it affects everyone else (who finished behind them)'s race, yet they have never nullified a race. Massa may have grounds to sue bernie etc because the only reason he couldn't challenge the result was because they didn't tell the public until it was legally to late for massa to do anything about it and they did this intentionally
As a Max fan i don’t think this video was “British bias”. Lewis has 7 titles, not 6, not 8. He has 7 titles and deserves those fully and i feel like they can’t be taken away from him after 14 years
Max don't deserve he frist champion He runs people off the road all the time and he second one he deserves that one for sure as redbull had cheat there car 🤣
@@Inferno360-_- Max deserved his first championship as well, and when Hamilton was younger and feisty, just like Vettel, he wasn't driving the most sportsmanlike either. The only reason would indeed be RB breaching the cost cap, but they already said no sporting penalties would be applied in such a case, so tbh RB just played the system really well, just like many other teams in the history did when they found loopholes in the technical regulations for example and made certain car parts that were than later explicitly banned. If FIA wants teams to not breach the cost caps they have to simply put higher penalties out there and make them very clear, best would be to have a progressively worse punishment for like every million of overspending. Then again we saw in Australia that just because they red flag instead that doesn't just fix the problem, but rather created even more problems lol. I think red flag with a rolling start would have been the best choice in both occasions. They need to have a fixed procedure for things like this or else it's just going to repeat over and over again.
f they tried to take a title from hamilton and give it to massa, it would be apocalyptic. i feel for massa, the guys who were in charge at the time have said they wish they didnt allow singapore to count. the problem is they did allow the result to stand and even if the fia said yeah we were wrong they wont change the outcome. they had time to erase the result of that race, but they were more concerned with how it would look bad for the sport than whether it was right or wrong. incompetence in the leadership of the sport cost him a championship. if i were him id be doing exactly what hes doing now, even if its in vain.
FIA has always been about how stuff looks for the sport. That's why they didn't want those safety car finishes either, even though there was no time left for a proper lap of racing in 2021.
Bearing in mind that that year, Massa didn't get a penalty in Suzuka for overtaking Kubika by cutting a corner (yes, that epic fight). Come Spa, when Lewis accidentally overtook Kimi by doing the same thing at the last corner _and gave the place back _*_immediately,_* they decided to give Lewis a 25 second penalty after Kimi crashed out later on (rain, his fault), handing the basically anonymous Massa the win. If Massa's plea is heard, so should Lewis's.
The Kubica-Massa battle was in 2007.... Suzuka wasn't even on the calendar that year... dude, if you're gonna go #blessedfanboi get your facts right first
There is nothing debatable about Spa. Hamilton let Räikkönen briefly get ahead and then immediately passed him into La Source. He wouldn't have been in that attacking position, had he taken the chicane normally (due to the concertina effect). Ergo he had a lasting advantage from cutting the chicane, and that's a penalty. Same as with Jeddah 2021. You can say 25 seconds are a particularly harsh penalty, but that's how things were handled back then. The 5 second time penalty wasn't invented yet. Available penalties were 10 seconds stop&go or a drive through penalty. Either would be turned into a 25 second time penalty if there was no time left to serve the penalty during the race. That's what happened in Spa. The appropriate penalty (for 2008 standards) was correctly applied.
@@Corvus67 a) I'm not a fan of any particular driver, I haven't been since my favourite driver retired at the end of the 1990s. I also happened to have a soft spot for Massa (he was personally no more involved in that decision/action than Lewis was in Singapore); b) neither am I a male. So I mixed up the year 🤷🏻♀️ - I was repeating information I'd heard (or misheard) in a different video and it's been a long time since the events. Still, the fact is that Massa had *no* penalty applied in a situation where his deliberate act gave him a massive advantage. Hamilton may have overtaken "too soon", but I can assure you that there was a ton of debate regarding the harshness, and the lateness, of that decision. At the time the only doubt on the side of professionals in the sport (not just British ones) was whether it was typical pro-Ferrari/FIA interference or blatant racism. Or both. The fact that FIA became that acronym and stuck for _years_ is the biggest problem in this particular case. Regarding the penalty itself, isn't this the whole point of being careful about reopening old cases? If you don't like Hamilton, I'm sure that any number of championships can be retroactively argued over. 1994 being the quickest one to come to mind, but I could come up with others if I could be arsed to.
@@y_fam_goeglyd I should have clarified: There was no foundation for any *serious* debate. Of course the Hamilton fanboys and -girls as well as biased British media and reporters were going nuts about it nonetheless. And maybe the outcry about this particular incident was a factor in the development of more nuanced penalties like the 5 seconds. But that doesn't change the fact that the penalty was correctly applied according to 2008 rules.
I was indifferent about this at first but the more I think about it more I hope this actually happens just for all the hilarity and the mass hysteria it will cause.
The funny thing about the Abu Dhabi thing is, that if #blessed somehow made that race disappear, still the half dutch, half catfish guy would win the 2021 wdc bcs after the penultimate round they've been on equal points, but Max was ranked higher then Lewis bcs of having more wins at that point
Abu Dhabi 21 was a makeup call for Silverstone. Anybody who wants to argue about voiding Abu Dhabi must accept voiding Silverstone which was substantially botched.
Hamilton is not getting punished if he didn't deserve the title in the first place. That's like getting the wrong product delivered, then claiming you are being punished when they take it back. The claim to the thing in the first place is illegitimate, so losing it is right, not wrong. But, for the record, I don't think they should change anything now.
What do you mean by Lewis loosing another title. There was no missed 8th title. Maxes psychological dominance during the season in 2021 psyched out Lewis and Merc into fear of not pitting for fresh tyres in 2 saftey car periods so they could keep track position ahead of Max because he kept defeating Lewis in close combat all season. So they made a mistake of not getting fresh tyres twice. Race director is supposed to try and finish the race with a battle decided on track between the drivers. The lapped cars are supposed to be cleared out of the way. Lewis and Merc were not good enough all season against Max.
Locked out the front row with the kimster in Monaco. But then it rained on Sunday. Spun in Australia Got lucky in Spa Lew pulling a Houdini in China (even Ferrari’s data boffs couldn’t believe they lost that one) Hungary and Singapore shouldn’t have mattered tbh
@@Enzoblueblood Ciaron Smith literally said that Ferrari could have won every single race from Aussie to Belgium. In hindsight, apart from Germany, I have to agree with him. Especially in the races. They were frickin rapid.
@@ryanjonathanmartin3933 There was a point in that 08 Silverstone race, just before the rain went full buckets, when Kimi was catching Ham at a rate of knots- the f2008 was rapid. I think they struggled in Germany to get the tyres in a optimal window and the McLaren had good mechanical grip, but even so, Hamilton had to dig deep to recover the win. The cooler temps in China that weekend also played into mclarens hand
@@Enzoblueblood Exactly. One second per lap. McLaren always had good mechanical grip until 2013, but ever since they lost Newey they've been behind in aerodynamics development.
I want it to happen because it'll give ferrari another drivers championship, but the odds of it happening is as much as ferrari winning another championship anytime soon
Even if the 2021 season was to change aswell it would matter Verstappen still wins the title with 1 more win, then lewis did so they can argue but doesn't change the result But this is spicy because if it is proven to be a thing then maybe legally they have a case to bring forward but to save itself from the drama from one race this makes it 10x worse
No matter what happens, LH will keep 7 titles as if this gets rejected, then that’s that, he keeps all 7. If it gets accepted though, Mercedes could use that decision to say that then Abu Dhabi 2021 should also be fixed to have it so it is LH that benefits and wins the championship in 2021. The only person loosing out is Max Verstappen as his 3 titles will go down to 2 (since we all know that the RB19 is a rocket) Edit: I forgot that since LH and Verstappen were even on points going into Abu Dhabi, and that Verstappen had more wins, that means Verstappen would still win the 2021 wdc. These are just thoughts that I wanted to get out of the way!
Have doubts about '21 being change as there was a clause in the regs that gave race director full discretion over sc procedures, basically trumped everything else.
As a max fan, lewis shouldn't lose his title. He deserved it, he fought all season so thats that. Maybe you could take the win from alonso but not the championship from lewis
Its a weird one, I do think Massa should get the title, he lost it by Ferrari being Ferrari, but Hamilton didn't do anything wrong and shouldn't lose it
Ridiculous. Fix issues on race day or the day after, not later. Definitely not 15 years after. A season isn't won in the last race, it's won over a full season.
The Singapore race result in 2008 was effected by manipulating safety processes to gain track position for 1 Renault car after it was fuelled up long. So remaining finishers were in different positions at the end and Renault won. To be fair this result should have been wiped from the championship before the Brazil race. So McLaren and Lewis would know they need to finish 2nd and not 5th to win the title. Lewis was cruising around slowly in 5th place for most of the race and dropped back during the rain. If lewis knew on lap 1 that 5th was not good enough he would have been charging up the field and fail to win because he lacked race pace and lose the title on track. So really Masa deserves the title. Greedy Lewis will still have 6 titles which is plenty. Why didn't Max and Bernie cancel singapore before Brazil ? In bicycle racing they cancelled the results of 7 french tours.
No, because the rules in 2008 at state that after the end of year prize giving the awarded title is untouchable regardless of any info or investigations that come to light later. This rule has since been abolished but still applies to previous years/titles.
This would throw the sport into completely irreparable chaos. It would disrespect Hamilton, and if I were Massa I wouldn't be able to be proud of a title won 15 years later illegitimately. Alonso and Renault should be disqualified from that race, not changing the order but just taking their points away from that race or the whole championship. Don't punish Hamilton for just driving along
Before anyone draws conclusions between 2008 and 2021. I don’t see a single person claiming or evidence to show that Lattifi pulled a Piquet Jr. and to add to that in a Mercedes powered car. That all being said there’s no way in shit any of this gets over turned
Respectfully, Lewis benefited, right up to the Safety Car overtake in 21. He cut a corner and the FIA insisted all that happened was “close the gap.” So had he won 21, you would be seeing Max doing the same as Felipe.
New Interpretation of any rules shouldn't affected previous results except for Penalty Punishment.. If Lewis lost his 2008 title, then ALL F1 champion before 2014 should be stripped their title because the "New" interpretation says all cars should use hybird Power unit.. ALL Max's title should be stripped because the "New" interpretation says all drivers should be at least 18 years old at the start of their first F1 competition.. It's ridiculous
I think it should hapoen then every one can challenge everything like, prost challenging senna's championship, hll challenging schumacer's, Lewis challenging spa 2008 & last lap of Ad '21 etc
If this title gets overturned then they'd need to overturn the 21 title, the 94 title, and the 89 title just to name a few. At this point they're in too deep and fixing any past wrongs will open up the biggest can of worms in F1.
Massa lost because ferrari fucked up his pitstop. Also does this mean Damon hill can sue and have schumacher's 1994 revoked, cos it was pretty obvious schumacher crashed into him and the fia did nothing about it. It's more likely Renault would be disqualified from the season entirely because McLaren had nothing to do with crash gate.
I say leave it alone. It’s from like 15 years ago. What’s the point of changing it now? Hamilton merely benefited off of someone else’s stupidity. Verstappen did the exact same.
Lewis will lose one and gain one either way. The problem will be the Michael Schumacher, Senna, Prost era .... those guys literally crushed or took each other out for titles all the time on purpose. it will be a nightmare to figure out
Something similar is apparently happening with the 1981 championship. Carlos Reutemann’s daughter is trying to get Nelson Piquet’s result in Las Vegas overturned.
2008 - A fixed GP so yes result should be overturn no matter who loses and who wins. 2021 is still up for discussion and I think even if race results forfeited Max was on level points and won't lose his title.
Does it really compare to AD21 and even the Senna-Prost incidents (amongst many others), since this involved the actual heads of the entire sport, not "just" teams? We had Crashgate, Spygate, wooden-board-under-the-car-gate and so on. Those teams were disqualified and taken to task. It may not deserve to change the 08 championship, though I think Massa was done dirty, but it does warrant a definitive investigation and large scale attention
There’s no way the wheels of justice would strip Lewis of his first title without also stripping Max of his and giving it to Lewis. Call Shenanigans on both or none.
I don't know about all that things, but what I know is that through history we had many occasions with strange and suspicious things happens in last one or two races in the season. And I don't believe that we can do anything about that. But, what can be done is to make the rule that during any kind of safety car period, race must be frozen, and nothing should be done on the cars. Many times, drivers and teams gained advantage with lucky (or maybe - "lucky"?) timing of pit stop.
Well if Massa is successful, then Verstappen should by the same criteria give up his 2021 title to Hamilton! The whole idea of reversing a decision back to 2008 is really quite ridiculous, and I find it hard to believe that Massa is that "small".
@@inertnet same thing here, Hamilton and McLaren didn’t do anything wrong, btw I’m not saying Verstappen doesn’t deserve the title, I’m just pointing out how massa trying to regain the title is absolutely useless, it’s the FIA’s fault again, not the title contending teams so you can’t take anything away from them
Using the Armstrong comparison. If the FIA were to go that route, they would only vacate Alonso's win and not promote others positions. The years where Armstrong originally won the tour now simply do not have a winner, the original second place holder is still considered second place.
Massa did deserve the Title, but he just had 1 point to little, thats life sometimes. Lewis should not lose it since he won the Title fair and square in that final race and neither mclaren nor ferrari were involved in crashgate. Stirpping the title would open Padoras Box and have serious implications for everything because then all the title deciders will be looked upon and potentially be challengend like 1991,1994 or 2021 to name a few. It would hurt the sport immensily. As a Ferrari fan I would have loved to see massa win this title but, Hamilton is the GOAT and deserves to be record champion.
You have to wonder why Bernie is bringing this up now. Does he not realise or care what this would mean as he was the boss then. The man is so determined to belittle, bring Hamilton down, he has not considered what this would mean for other drivers or the legacy of F1.
People who say that Massa deserved that Championship probably didn't even watche the whose season. He could easily have won if he hadn't made stupid mistakes like in Australia, Malaysia and Silverstone, not including that he got a gifted win at Spa
this would be insane, it could potentially affect every prevous title achieved by drivers as them would retroactively be evaluated by changing current and future day standards.
Rules were broken, but why should Hamilton be affected by something out of his control? Like you can’t blame max for what happened cause he didn’t influence decisions
I don't blame max.. but the 2008 was an injustice, hamilton let kimi go by then re-passed... but race director and stewards broke thier own rules... Sena-Prost style
like you said, if they do that, theyll have to go through every season and past champions will change based off whos in charge of the FIA. Bad precedent to set, and thats why they should keep it as is, in that the standings are final at the start of the awards ceremony, unless there is an an active investigation, which at that point they should postpone the ceremony until either the investigation is complete, or a month passes (whichever comes first)
5:57 The same argument can be used on the RB cost cap breach as well. Much like LH and 2021, Max benefited from a situation he has no control over. Also, I don't think the situation can be compared to Lance Armstrong's, as Lance was not only taking PEDs, but also was involved in a whole scheme that involved procuring and coercing his team mates into using them, as well as ties with Dr. Michele Ferrari, which was infamous for being involved in several cases of doping of dozens of cyclicsts.
thats why it wont go through, the contenders for the championship in 2008 and 2021 werent directly involved in the controversy, so you cant really take away something from someone if they had no onvilvement in it
@@tobiasz6613 They might still do it til this day for all we know. But Lance went beyond just using PEDs. If that was all he was to blame for, no one would bat an eye. At one point, he even tried to pretend his PED usage was part of his cancer treatment.
Glock's gamble worked. If he had pitted for wet tires he never would've been in front of Hamilton to begin with and Hamilton would've just finished 5th without the final corner drama
I feel like it would have been a beautiful addition to this video if you went even more crazy with the implications that results are not really final and can be contested with modern knowledge. 1994 is a good example (Benneton cheating, Schumacher just crashing into Hill as a desperation act after what was almost a thrown away title, especially with the colossal team mistake on the DQ at Silverstone), what about the political drama that defined the 1989 season and maybe even more that I don't know about because they are too far in the past. Regardless a very good video playing with these implications on the most talked about cases. I don't think we have yet to see a world champ who didn't deserve the title. Taking it away sounds wrong to me even though Massa is the best driver of 2008 for me. It's a team game and Ferrari was already doing their modern Ferrari things, like messing up pitstops and throwing away races or having the worst reliability when it counts the most. Bernie doesn't like Lewis imo, if you think his 2008 title shouldn't have been his, then take away Schumachers 1994 title. That was in a cheating car, regardless of the heroics Michael produced in that year. At least scandals and so on are just part of F1, as upsetting as they are. Trust me, others will be jealous that you've been around for the 2021 fiasco in quite some years. Unfortunately only 1 driver can win the title.
It wasn't the crash that affected Massa's race. It was his teams botched pit Stop. Had they done their job, he would have retained his lead and more than likely won the race.
You are correct that the standings will not change. Far too many bodies buried to go down that slippery slope. Should Massa have won, yes. Is it fair to take the championship away from Louis as he was not involved directly? No but it also wasn't fair to Massa either as he was not an active participate either. As far as AD goes, let's let that dead horse stay dead. Verstappen got the win, good, bad or indifferent. There's no crying in F1. On another note, the Piquet family seems to be shade adjacent a whole lot.
I agree that likely nothing will happen and I'm leaning more to that it should NOT happen at this point. Yes, Massa deserved that title because like Kimi, he got there despite the hardships (Kimi also had Ferrari blunders, and still won despite both them and Spygate); yes, the FIA knew about it because there have been documents and evidence shown, and yes, *at the time* the whole Singapore race should have been voided, because let's not forget, even putting Lewis, Massa, and Alonso aside, the events of the scandal affected EVERYONE'S race. Every last driver had their race artificially impacted, whether for the positive or the negative. But again, like I said above, I think it's too late and they should NOT take it from Lewis (maybe they could have a joint title for Massa, because if the race had been discounted as it should have, then he would have won🤷♂; but it's too late to take it from Lewis). I just find it stupid how the same people who are DEMANDING Max be stripped of his titles from something that no cheating was involved (and the rules were followed *as written* and unanimously agreed on by all teams), are now screeching in self-righteous indignation about a season that was tarnished with actual cheating. Can you say hypocrisy and double-standards? On a side-note, if the FIA were to go back and examine all seasons, Schumi would probably lose his '94 championship, which would likely cause major backlash (though I suppose they could say that in '94 they weren't sure, whereas in '97, he was a repeat offender and got disqualified from the entire season). Senna and Prost might actually get one of their titles flipped. The '89 where they showed Prost turned in FAR earlier than ever (over the years, over practice and qualifying, and even during the actual race itself, he never turned in that early; in fact he turned in so early at that point in that race, that if not for colliding with Senna, he would have gone right off the track), and that season would go to Senna. On the other hand, when Senna returned the favor in '90, that would likely result in that title getting handed to Prost.
Massa didn't say the legal action is about taking the championship back - it could mean a whole manner of things including compensation. No way will the FIA change the results of a championship that took place 15 years ago.
In these scenarios, shared titles would make sense. Give Massa a title but keep Hamilton with a title as well. That's exactly what should have also happened in 2021! If Massa won a court case which took Hamilton's title away then Hamilton would just challenge the result at Spa and easily win that case thus getting the title back. Then Hamilton might also start talking about really what happened in 2007 when his engine suddently went into neutral at the Brazilian Grand Prix and cost him the title.
@@WH0oo... Not from the drivers. From Red Bull there is the budget cap breach but that's a debate for another day. The stewards did break the rules though. That is the issue here.
@@barnigranero5882 SIN08 is at a conspiracy level where the FIA and F1 colluded to not investigate that race after credible evidence that crash was manufactured was presented to them. AD21 is not even close to that level. But 2021 had controversy throughout the season. As to the cost cap, the rules and penalties are clear. As a minor breech and a signed ABA, point reduction or DQ wasnt available as a penalty consideration. All rules were followed. Any complaints now is sour grapes.
Because Alonso is one of the best F1 drivers of all time and has demonstrated that no matter how bad his equipment he is capable of extracting the most of it. That earns the respect and admiration of yhe fans. He is also just a fun guy to have around in the sport. He brings some personality to this boring ass sport
If someone proves that 2021 was something done on purpose to help one driver instead of a misinterpretation of the rules, then they could be compared. 🤷♂️ no one was banned of the sport after 2021, totally different situation.
I'm maybe one of the biggest anti Hamilton fans. I would of loved Massa to have won in 2008. But he didn't. 2021 was also filled with controversy, but then what year has not had any? Should 2020 count? What about Senna or Schumacher? They both could lose a championship as well as gain one some other year. 2008 champion is Lewis and 2021champion is Max. It is what it is.
No chance. The only way it works out for Massa is if the race is deleted, but every other time it has been the driver/team disqualified,not the race being annulled. Don't get me wrong, Massa was very unfortunate and would absolutely have been a worthy champion in 2008 and I understand his point of view. That Bernie says the race should be annulled means nothing, even less given he himself put a lid on it at the time.
The difference between 2008 and 2021 is that in 2008 they would cancel the result of a whole race. Therefore do the same in 2021 and still Max Verstappen would be WDC
Surely Hamilton and Mercedes will do an Aston Martin and say you can’t say this however long after the time it happened like when Astons podium was stolen
Abu Dhabi 2021 severely damaged my love for F1 to the point that it probably won't ever be fully repaired. I've obviously wanted the result of that race to be changed to what it should've been, but I must admit after watching this video if only that result was changed and not others like Singapore 2008 being completely voided due to crashgate, it would really show an insane lack of consistency, not that F1 these days isn't well known for it already.
If we do this, then we might as well tear up the entire seventy-two year history of Formula One, go over it with a fine tooth comb and reassess every single championship for its legitimacy.
So many factors could have changed that season. This dumb pit moment could have also happened if there was no safety car anyway. It should stand as it. Now IF, BIG IF, they overturn it, then they also need to overturn 2021, and look back at every close championship end. Either way Hamilton is a 7 time champion. We have all come to accept both championships by now. Lets just leave it alone.
I'm indifferent about this particular legal issue. While Massa has a case, it could conceivably be a Pandora's box of legal challenges dating back to the beginning of F1. That would be insane. Massa was certainly a great driver, who greatly improved as Michael's teammate. It's obvious that he was capable of taking the challenge to anyone; and given an equal car, he could probably even beat Hamilton. Why? Because Massa knew what it was like to drive a crappy car, before getting his seat at Ferrari. He had that experience; and it allowed him to get the best out of a bad situation. Hamilton, on the other hand, had pretty much spent his entire F1 career driving a championship worthy car. Last year and this year, he's finally getting experience with a car that can't fight for the #1 spot... yet (who knows what modifications are coming down the pike?). No matter whether Hamilton keeps that title or loses it in court to Massa, he'll never be the greatest F1 driver of all time. I know that makes some people butt-hurt, but it's a hard truth. If he were to leave Mercedes for Haas, Williams or Alpine (for example) and help them become championship contenders and winners, THEN someone can start arguing for his greatness. Until then, he's just another guy who has the good fortune to drive the best car to championships. He did little else.
Same can be said for quite a lot of drivers, like I can see your point about Hamilton, however, I could argue back that actually there were lots of reg changes which could’ve swung the championship in other teams favours, but Mercedes were still on top for 8 years despite those changes which were all for “closer racing” so I would say he is still in the convo for number 1. Plus you don’t win championships without talent and that’s just facys
@@ishqiahmed4315 The FIA changed the rules several times, while Schumacher was champion; and it setback both Benetton and Ferrari at the time. He challenged for wins in cars that had no business in the podium; and helped the team overcome the rules changes by adapting. He was integral to the teams' continued development. Mercedes was able to maintain their dominance, because they were so far ahead of everyone else when Hamilton joined them Toto has admitted as much. They never used the true full potential of their engine for the first few years; and were deliberately sandbagging, because they were afraid that the FIA would affect a rules change that took away that advantage. The other changes were far less of an impact on the car, until 2021. Mercedes still had a great engine, but they couldn't put it to use, because of the porpoising and handling issues that resulted from the new spec car. Since Russell had experience with driving cars that lacked the performance perfection that Hamilton had enjoyed for nigh on a decade, he was overjoyed at being able to finally drive a car that was leaps and bounds ahead of anything else that he's driven. That's why he's been able to regularly beat Hamilton, ever since he joined the team. You've got a decision to make: Either Hamilton is as good as you believe, which makes Russell that much better, or I'm right... and Hamilton's titles are vastly more about the teams and the cars that he's driven with. I seriously doubt that many people believe that Russell is better than Hamilton at this point. So, that leaves you with Hamilton simply not being able to cope with anything but the best cars under him.
@@MickPsyphon I mean just cause he can’t drive this car doesn’t mean he’s not a good driver, like he has still scored podiums in a car difficult to drive and has had great performances, the car was never fast enough to win a race bar 1, it’s not like any of the 2019/2018 red bulls and Ferraris who won multiple races. Like one thing you have to consider is Lewis was the only one to give a good challenge to max which led them to being level on points going into the final round, and it could be said max was at a high level and so was Lewis, just cause he isn’t finding rhythm in the car he has right now doesn’t demeanour the potential/speed he still has
True F1 fans knows to look at the overall picture which points to Massa being hopeless in the wet races at Monaco (after a Ferrari front row lock out in quali) and Silverstone (spun 5 times, as I remember). Hungary and Singapore wouldn’t have mattered
Thing is, if Ferrari were competent then Massa would have scored points in Singapore and won the title. The safety car didn't affect Ferrari's ability to be clowns in the pit lane.
Also Hungary, which a lot of people forget. Massa had a comfortable lead and with 3 laps to go his engine blew up.
@@Warrioruk then again spa 2008 was ridiculous
@@Warrioruk this news is not about how massa drove it is how the FIA covered it up for 7 months
Ecclestone and then FIA president Max Mosley were made aware of the allegation that year already but it didn’t come to light until the following season.
“Max Mosley and I were informed during the 2008 season what had happened in the race in Singapore,” he recalled to F1 Insider.
“Piquet Junior had told his father Nelson that he had been asked by the team to drive into the wall at a certain point in order to trigger a Safety Car phase and such to help his team-mate Alonso.
That's irrelevant if Ecclestone should've voided the race
Without crashgate MASSA wouldn’t of pitted you clown
We've had drivers literally crash into each other on purpose to win the championship (cough cough senna) and that win wasn't revoked so this definitely won't be
If you are talking about Japan, weren't both Prost and Senna out of the race anyway?
Well Senna is dead now so they might aswell keep it...
@@thegotterdammerung He was Brazilian
Well its because that wasnt a rigged race lol
I was gonna say Schumacher lol
I don't think they should change it. A decided factor for me is that Massa didn't directly lose points because of crashgate, it was because of Ferrari being Ferrari. Both he and Lewis where equal competitors in the a race that happend to have a safety car, there is always some luck it that.
I think that Alonso should lose his win, but yeah, give it to Rosberg
ferrari wasn't ferrari. The light broke down out of nowhere and it started to show the green light too early
@@cisord_ who’s fault is that, Hamiltons?
@@ishqiahmed4315 Its no one's fault, the lights were new and ofc unreliable, you can't blame Ferrari for this just because they have 0.1 braincells today
@@eggselent9814 right - void Alonso's win - everyone else moves up a spot - Lewis wins the Championship by even more points.
Compromise solution: Take one championship from Nelson Piquet and give it to Massa.
Best suggestio on the thread.
wait taking a championship from his dad to give to the person they wronged? genius since then his dad would be furious with his cheating son 🤣
Deserved as well since he’s a racist prick
So which one, the one where Massa would be an F1 champion at just a few months old, two and a half years old or six and a half years old? Either way, it would make him the youngest ever F1 champion in history and a record that I am fairly confident will never be broken.
We might as well get rid of all of piquets, he’s a horrible human being, so Alain Prost Is a 5 time, Nigel Mansell is a 2 time, and Carlos Ruetemann is a 1 time, Massa gets 2008, but to make Hamilton happy, we can give him 2021, and Verstappen will have more then enough Titles by the end of his career to be satisfied.Everyone is happy
You know what I find the most amazing?,
The fact that Crashgate worked to begin with.
That is the part of it that really never has gotten the attention it deserves, it actually worked. The odds of it working out were so mindbogglingly remote that the fact it did work out is just wild.
It's insane that they did it in a season where they weren't going to win the title anyways. Like the reward was so low for the risk involved
Attempting that on lap 14 of a 61 lap race... yeah, its crazy they were able to do it
Easy, Alonso stopped just before the crash happened and everyone else then pitted which advanced Alonso to the front of the grid behind the safety car...
@@CMike44 i think they had a clause in alonsos contract that allowed him to leave early if he didn't get a win so they had to fix the race to keep him for another year
The absolute funniest outcome here is Massa gets his wish but only Alonsos win is voided meaning Hamilton wins the championship by a bigger margin.
No because the entire crash caused the safety car, people pitted positions changed, if the FIA does overturn/ void Singapore the entire race would not count. That would lead to massa gaining the championship with 6 wins, 97 points to Hamiltons 5 wins, 92 points. Do I think it should be change no there should be some sort of statue of limitations, but with Bernie revealing he knew about crashgate the FIA should put an asterisk by Singapore and the Hamiltons 2008 win.
@@wow-sham1300 I get that dunking on Hamilton is a favourite pass time for a lot of people but is an unbelievably bad take. Why should Rosberg and Williams lose their 2nd place in the same race? The only fair outcome would be Renault losing the win and that would result in Hamilton winning the WDC by a bigger margin.
@@AndrewPeddie exactly, renault is the only offender
@@wow-sham1300 since when has 1 person cheating voided the results for everyone else ? I get that you're saying what would be fair, if a driver bowling balls 5 cars they don't void the result.
@@AndrewPeddie I do agree with you that’s why I said the FIA should put an asterisk and then change the rules to prevent this kinda like they did with Abu Dhabi and all other controversial races.
I think the "fairest" way of looking at the situation is that neither Verstappen nor Hamilton was involved in any cheating which may have affected the winner of 2008/2021 which means they can't be punished for it and get stripped of a title each.
Agreed, both Max and Lewis weren't at fault for 2008 and 2021.
Yes this is the way
True💪🏻👍
@@chrismaina1830 this is the way 😂
@@chrismaina1830 This is the way.
If they did end up voiding the Singapore GP and people tried to do the same for Abu Dhabi, Verstappen would still keep his championship if the race results were ignored, both him and Lewis were equal on points and Verstappen had more wins, so he would've won it anyway
he had more second place finishes as well so if for whatever reason first place finishes were excluded he'd of still one, it was pretty interesting learning all the ways Max still would have won if Mercedes got their way and had excluded the final race.
I also remember being met with a lot of abuse when explaining that to people at the time, it has since somewhat ruined my enjoyment of the sport all around, all because people didn't understand how the sport they watch works.
same with people saying Leclerc going off at the casio triangle and getting a deserved penalty was somehow FIA favoritism, sports really bring out the worst in human beings.
Nah because if the Fia wouldn't do Abu Dhabi 2021 months after there is no way they are changing a result back in 2008 and its only one person
I mean yeah. They should just invalidate abu Dhabi 2021 and Singapore 2008
@@spinni5767 #stillcry
@Spinni You do realize if adu dhabi 2021 was voided, Max would have still won due to having more wins? It's not just a cop out to get lewis an 8th title.
@@silkychris999 yep I know.
@@mefjuldz oh I am glad that Max won and I dont care about 2008. (Just want Massa to have a title) but yeah..just a meme
Given Hamilton had no part in the race fixing, to take his title would be to basically to say he has to face consequences for what someone else did. Also given Ferrari is the reason Massa ended the race where he did, he's basically asking for his own team's ineptitude to not count. Which, yeah there's all sorts of things wrong with that.
Races have that all the time. You might not start a crash, but get hit anyway. It's the nature of the sport.
@@WH0oo... yes but give me 1 example of a race result getting voided because 1 team cheated.
@@leonmalaga16 Massa would need to provide strong evidence for nullifying the race. Through legal action he might get that information. If I was in his place, I would. At least to try and know all the facts, whether or not it warrants a redress to the race result.
@@leonmalaga16 I think the argument is more that some teams unfairly lost point too. So some people already got punished unfairly and had to face the consequences of other people cheating even though it was on track. But I agree, nothing will come from this. It's only Massa talking in the first place, the FIA will never do anything themselfs and I highly doubt they failed to make sure they have left some legal loopholes open. Driver and teams probably agree that the FIA can do whatever they want when they join the F1.
@@LunnarisLP every time a team cheats it affects everyone else (who finished behind them)'s race, yet they have never nullified a race. Massa may have grounds to sue bernie etc because the only reason he couldn't challenge the result was because they didn't tell the public until it was legally to late for massa to do anything about it and they did this intentionally
The FIA knows this would result in so much bs if they do it. They dont want the headache.
As a Max fan i don’t think this video was “British bias”. Lewis has 7 titles, not 6, not 8. He has 7 titles and deserves those fully and i feel like they can’t be taken away from him after 14 years
Max don't deserve he frist champion He runs people off the road all the time and he second one he deserves that one for sure as redbull had cheat there car 🤣
@@Inferno360-_- Max deserved his first championship as well, and when Hamilton was younger and feisty, just like Vettel, he wasn't driving the most sportsmanlike either. The only reason would indeed be RB breaching the cost cap, but they already said no sporting penalties would be applied in such a case, so tbh RB just played the system really well, just like many other teams in the history did when they found loopholes in the technical regulations for example and made certain car parts that were than later explicitly banned.
If FIA wants teams to not breach the cost caps they have to simply put higher penalties out there and make them very clear, best would be to have a progressively worse punishment for like every million of overspending.
Then again we saw in Australia that just because they red flag instead that doesn't just fix the problem, but rather created even more problems lol. I think red flag with a rolling start would have been the best choice in both occasions. They need to have a fixed procedure for things like this or else it's just going to repeat over and over again.
f they tried to take a title from hamilton and give it to massa, it would be apocalyptic. i feel for massa, the guys who were in charge at the time have said they wish they didnt allow singapore to count. the problem is they did allow the result to stand and even if the fia said yeah we were wrong they wont change the outcome.
they had time to erase the result of that race, but they were more concerned with how it would look bad for the sport than whether it was right or wrong. incompetence in the leadership of the sport cost him a championship. if i were him id be doing exactly what hes doing now, even if its in vain.
Ferrari's incompetence cost him that title, not crashgate.
FIA has always been about how stuff looks for the sport. That's why they didn't want those safety car finishes either, even though there was no time left for a proper lap of racing in 2021.
@@mufaromawere4819
Crashgate caused Ferrari to make the mistake, dummy.
The irony about crashgate was they didn’t even need to do it, as they won the next race legitimately
Renault moment
The point you made at the end is why this can't be overturned! It'll be a bigger shit storm than the aftermath of AD21
Bearing in mind that that year, Massa didn't get a penalty in Suzuka for overtaking Kubika by cutting a corner (yes, that epic fight). Come Spa, when Lewis accidentally overtook Kimi by doing the same thing at the last corner _and gave the place back _*_immediately,_* they decided to give Lewis a 25 second penalty after Kimi crashed out later on (rain, his fault), handing the basically anonymous Massa the win.
If Massa's plea is heard, so should Lewis's.
The Kubica-Massa battle was in 2007.... Suzuka wasn't even on the calendar that year... dude, if you're gonna go #blessedfanboi get your facts right first
@@Corvus67 you're talking to a brainlet. They will use anything that happened to anyone in any year if it favors their master.
There is nothing debatable about Spa. Hamilton let Räikkönen briefly get ahead and then immediately passed him into La Source. He wouldn't have been in that attacking position, had he taken the chicane normally (due to the concertina effect). Ergo he had a lasting advantage from cutting the chicane, and that's a penalty. Same as with Jeddah 2021. You can say 25 seconds are a particularly harsh penalty, but that's how things were handled back then. The 5 second time penalty wasn't invented yet. Available penalties were 10 seconds stop&go or a drive through penalty. Either would be turned into a 25 second time penalty if there was no time left to serve the penalty during the race. That's what happened in Spa. The appropriate penalty (for 2008 standards) was correctly applied.
@@Corvus67 a) I'm not a fan of any particular driver, I haven't been since my favourite driver retired at the end of the 1990s. I also happened to have a soft spot for Massa (he was personally no more involved in that decision/action than Lewis was in Singapore); b) neither am I a male.
So I mixed up the year 🤷🏻♀️ - I was repeating information I'd heard (or misheard) in a different video and it's been a long time since the events. Still, the fact is that Massa had *no* penalty applied in a situation where his deliberate act gave him a massive advantage. Hamilton may have overtaken "too soon", but I can assure you that there was a ton of debate regarding the harshness, and the lateness, of that decision.
At the time the only doubt on the side of professionals in the sport (not just British ones) was whether it was typical pro-Ferrari/FIA interference or blatant racism. Or both. The fact that FIA became that acronym and stuck for _years_ is the biggest problem in this particular case. Regarding the penalty itself, isn't this the whole point of being careful about reopening old cases?
If you don't like Hamilton, I'm sure that any number of championships can be retroactively argued over. 1994 being the quickest one to come to mind, but I could come up with others if I could be arsed to.
@@y_fam_goeglyd I should have clarified: There was no foundation for any *serious* debate. Of course the Hamilton fanboys and -girls as well as biased British media and reporters were going nuts about it nonetheless. And maybe the outcry about this particular incident was a factor in the development of more nuanced penalties like the 5 seconds. But that doesn't change the fact that the penalty was correctly applied according to 2008 rules.
Do i think it will happen? No
Will i laugh my lungs out of my body if it does happen? ABSOLUTELY
I was indifferent about this at first but the more I think about it more I hope this actually happens just for all the hilarity and the mass hysteria it will cause.
@@kristjanbirnirivansson528 and the absolute COLLAPSE of the LH44 fanbase *grabs popcorn* ooooooh this is gonna be a good one
The funny thing about the Abu Dhabi thing is, that if #blessed somehow made that race disappear, still the half dutch, half catfish guy would win the 2021 wdc bcs after the penultimate round they've been on equal points, but Max was ranked higher then Lewis bcs of having more wins at that point
If they weren't going to reverse the 2021 title, then there is no way they can change one from nearly 15 years ago...
Abu Dhabi 21 was a makeup call for Silverstone. Anybody who wants to argue about voiding Abu Dhabi must accept voiding Silverstone which was substantially botched.
Hamilton is not getting punished if he didn't deserve the title in the first place. That's like getting the wrong product delivered, then claiming you are being punished when they take it back. The claim to the thing in the first place is illegitimate, so losing it is right, not wrong. But, for the record, I don't think they should change anything now.
Even if abu dhabi is voided max will still win with even less doubt on his cup
What do you mean by Lewis loosing another title. There was no missed 8th title. Maxes psychological dominance during the season in 2021 psyched out Lewis and Merc into fear of not pitting for fresh tyres in 2 saftey car periods so they could keep track position ahead of Max because he kept defeating Lewis in close combat all season. So they made a mistake of not getting fresh tyres twice. Race director is supposed to try and finish the race with a battle decided on track between the drivers. The lapped cars are supposed to be cleared out of the way. Lewis and Merc were not good enough all season against Max.
If Massa were to file action against this championship title. He can get prepared to spend a lot of money and lose.
Well, there was something Massa could have done in 2008.
Kept the car under control during the race at Silverstone. Seriously... 5 spins...
Locked out the front row with the kimster in Monaco. But then it rained on Sunday.
Spun in Australia
Got lucky in Spa
Lew pulling a Houdini in China (even Ferrari’s data boffs couldn’t believe they lost that one)
Hungary and Singapore shouldn’t have mattered tbh
@@Enzoblueblood Ciaron Smith literally said that Ferrari could have won every single race from Aussie to Belgium. In hindsight, apart from Germany, I have to agree with him. Especially in the races. They were frickin rapid.
@@ryanjonathanmartin3933
There was a point in that 08 Silverstone race, just before the rain went full buckets, when Kimi was catching Ham at a rate of knots- the f2008 was rapid.
I think they struggled in Germany to get the tyres in a optimal window and the McLaren had good mechanical grip, but even so, Hamilton had to dig deep to recover the win. The cooler temps in China that weekend also played into mclarens hand
@@Enzoblueblood Exactly. One second per lap.
McLaren always had good mechanical grip until 2013, but ever since they lost Newey they've been behind in aerodynamics development.
If this title got taken away. The Maradonas Hand of God should be looked at and alter an entire world cup! Basically, too late to change this
In Athleticism, if it's proven that one cheated 20 years ago, that person is immediately punished, but FIA can't "mess with the sport image".
If Massa gets his championship back this could have a bigger effect on Motorsports not just F1
I want it to happen because it'll give ferrari another drivers championship, but the odds of it happening is as much as ferrari winning another championship anytime soon
Is Damon hill a 2 time world champion?
And what about the Senna Prost feud?
F1 is controversy
And that's why we like it😊
Amazing. We like sport because of controversy. Not because of competition. Shows how immature most F1 fans are.
No way, if this happens then a whole bunch of championships are in the question and besides that's just lame tbh
I mean i would understand if they change the 1981 results, because Ecclestone himself (the Team Boss of Brabham at the time) admitted to cheating
@@eggselent9814 Can you expand on that, if you don't mind? Don't think I know this story.
I see that silly season has started early
Even if the 2021 season was to change aswell it would matter Verstappen still wins the title with 1 more win, then lewis did so they can argue but doesn't change the result
But this is spicy because if it is proven to be a thing then maybe legally they have a case to bring forward but to save itself from the drama from one race this makes it 10x worse
The past is the past. Always forward. I hate post-facto BS. Being a lifetime Andretti fan, I was scarred by the 1981 Indy 500.
No matter what happens, LH will keep 7 titles as if this gets rejected, then that’s that, he keeps all 7. If it gets accepted though, Mercedes could use that decision to say that then Abu Dhabi 2021 should also be fixed to have it so it is LH that benefits and wins the championship in 2021. The only person loosing out is Max Verstappen as his 3 titles will go down to 2 (since we all know that the RB19 is a rocket)
Edit: I forgot that since LH and Verstappen were even on points going into Abu Dhabi, and that Verstappen had more wins, that means Verstappen would still win the 2021 wdc. These are just thoughts that I wanted to get out of the way!
Have doubts about '21 being change as there was a clause in the regs that gave race director full discretion over sc procedures, basically trumped everything else.
As a max fan, lewis shouldn't lose his title. He deserved it, he fought all season so thats that. Maybe you could take the win from alonso but not the championship from lewis
Its a weird one, I do think Massa should get the title, he lost it by Ferrari being Ferrari, but Hamilton didn't do anything wrong and shouldn't lose it
Just give the title to both of them.
Ridiculous. Fix issues on race day or the day after, not later. Definitely not 15 years after. A season isn't won in the last race, it's won over a full season.
The Singapore race result in 2008 was effected by manipulating safety processes to gain track position for 1 Renault car after it was fuelled up long. So remaining finishers were in different positions at the end and Renault won. To be fair this result should have been wiped from the championship before the Brazil race. So McLaren and Lewis would know they need to finish 2nd and not 5th to win the title. Lewis was cruising around slowly in 5th place for most of the race and dropped back during the rain. If lewis knew on lap 1 that 5th was not good enough he would have been charging up the field and fail to win because he lacked race pace and lose the title on track. So really Masa deserves the title. Greedy Lewis will still have 6 titles which is plenty. Why didn't Max and Bernie cancel singapore before Brazil ?
In bicycle racing they cancelled the results of 7 french tours.
Give Alonso a DNF, Hamilton gets two more points in that race, and wins the title by 3 points.
You've been hit by you've been struck by Romain Grosjean
@@antonsamuelsson1317 What have Romain Grosjean do with 2008 gp?
@@zhen86 no not 08 but 12
Lol if 2021 isn't being rescinded, nothing is.
No, because the rules in 2008 at state that after the end of year prize giving the awarded title is untouchable regardless of any info or investigations that come to light later. This rule has since been abolished but still applies to previous years/titles.
This would throw the sport into completely irreparable chaos. It would disrespect Hamilton, and if I were Massa I wouldn't be able to be proud of a title won 15 years later illegitimately. Alonso and Renault should be disqualified from that race, not changing the order but just taking their points away from that race or the whole championship. Don't punish Hamilton for just driving along
Before anyone draws conclusions between 2008 and 2021. I don’t see a single person claiming or evidence to show that Lattifi pulled a Piquet Jr. and to add to that in a Mercedes powered car. That all being said there’s no way in shit any of this gets over turned
Respectfully, Lewis benefited, right up to the Safety Car overtake in 21. He cut a corner and the FIA insisted all that happened was “close the gap.” So had he won 21, you would be seeing Max doing the same as Felipe.
Ultimately he can argue that Max pushed him off the track then as Max got quite aggressive on the first lap.
New Interpretation of any rules shouldn't affected previous results except for Penalty Punishment..
If Lewis lost his 2008 title, then ALL F1 champion before 2014 should be stripped their title because the "New" interpretation says all cars should use hybird Power unit.. ALL Max's title should be stripped because the "New" interpretation says all drivers should be at least 18 years old at the start of their first F1 competition..
It's ridiculous
i was thinking there is no way that masa should have that title but then you mentioned the 2021 incident and now im not sure
You could just as easily disqualify Renault from that race giving Hamilton a P2 and Massa still a DNF
I think it should hapoen then every one can challenge everything like, prost challenging senna's championship, hll challenging schumacer's, Lewis challenging spa 2008 & last lap of Ad '21 etc
Since McLaren conspired to sabotage Alonso in the second half of 2007, he should win that title then
If this title gets overturned then they'd need to overturn the 21 title, the 94 title, and the 89 title just to name a few. At this point they're in too deep and fixing any past wrongs will open up the biggest can of worms in F1.
Massa lost because ferrari fucked up his pitstop. Also does this mean Damon hill can sue and have schumacher's 1994 revoked, cos it was pretty obvious schumacher crashed into him and the fia did nothing about it.
It's more likely Renault would be disqualified from the season entirely because McLaren had nothing to do with crash gate.
Nah the only championship that can be "changed" would be 1981 because Ecclestone (The winning team boss) admitted to cheating.
what about Damon Hill and Michael Schumacher 1994? or Senna/Prost in 1989/1990?
I say leave it alone. It’s from like 15 years ago. What’s the point of changing it now? Hamilton merely benefited off of someone else’s stupidity. Verstappen did the exact same.
Lewis will lose one and gain one either way. The problem will be the Michael Schumacher, Senna, Prost era .... those guys literally crushed or took each other out for titles all the time on purpose. it will be a nightmare to figure out
He doesnt gain shiiz. Forfeit AD21 and Max is still champ by points order
@@mshtysf4646 And Schumacher has one of his titles removed and so on and so forth…
which one would he win?
Something similar is apparently happening with the 1981 championship. Carlos Reutemann’s daughter is trying to get Nelson Piquet’s result in Las Vegas overturned.
2008 - A fixed GP so yes result should be overturn no matter who loses and who wins. 2021 is still up for discussion and I think even if race results forfeited Max was on level points and won't lose his title.
I suspect Fernando Alonso does know alot more than what he contributed towards the investigation.
Does it really compare to AD21 and even the Senna-Prost incidents (amongst many others), since this involved the actual heads of the entire sport, not "just" teams? We had Crashgate, Spygate, wooden-board-under-the-car-gate and so on. Those teams were disqualified and taken to task.
It may not deserve to change the 08 championship, though I think Massa was done dirty, but it does warrant a definitive investigation and large scale attention
Only one thing to do, we pull out the V8 cars out for one last glory, and do the race again. /s
There’s no way the wheels of justice would strip Lewis of his first title without also stripping Max of his and giving it to Lewis.
Call Shenanigans on both or none.
I don't know about all that things, but what I know is that through history we had many occasions with strange and suspicious things happens in last one or two races in the season. And I don't believe that we can do anything about that. But, what can be done is to make the rule that during any kind of safety car period, race must be frozen, and nothing should be done on the cars. Many times, drivers and teams gained advantage with lucky (or maybe - "lucky"?) timing of pit stop.
Well if Massa is successful, then Verstappen should by the same criteria give up his 2021 title to Hamilton! The whole idea of reversing a decision back to 2008 is really quite ridiculous, and I find it hard to believe that Massa is that "small".
Why should Verstappen give up his title when he did nothing wrong in that final 2021 race, nor his team?
@@inertnet same thing here, Hamilton and McLaren didn’t do anything wrong, btw I’m not saying Verstappen doesn’t deserve the title, I’m just pointing out how massa trying to regain the title is absolutely useless, it’s the FIA’s fault again, not the title contending teams so you can’t take anything away from them
But if we reverse AD 2021 Max is still champion
Using the Armstrong comparison. If the FIA were to go that route, they would only vacate Alonso's win and not promote others positions. The years where Armstrong originally won the tour now simply do not have a winner, the original second place holder is still considered second place.
Those are financial reasons. WDC is a cashless prize.
To me, Massa is a world champion. But Lewis still deserved the title for 08.
/Swedish Sainz fan
Massa did deserve the Title, but he just had 1 point to little, thats life sometimes. Lewis should not lose it since he won the Title fair and square in that final race and neither mclaren nor ferrari were involved in crashgate. Stirpping the title would open Padoras Box and have serious implications for everything because then all the title deciders will be looked upon and potentially be challengend like 1991,1994 or 2021 to name a few. It would hurt the sport immensily. As a Ferrari fan I would have loved to see massa win this title but, Hamilton is the GOAT and deserves to be record champion.
You have to wonder why Bernie is bringing this up now. Does he not realise or care what this would mean as he was the boss then. The man is so determined to belittle, bring Hamilton down, he has not considered what this would mean for other drivers or the legacy of F1.
People who say that Massa deserved that Championship probably didn't even watche the whose season. He could easily have won if he hadn't made stupid mistakes like in Australia, Malaysia and Silverstone, not including that he got a gifted win at Spa
They aren’t going to change this because Ferrari made a mistake
let's be really clear, 2021 and 2008 singapore are not the same story, there is nothing to compare here, so we shouldn't compare.
this would be insane, it could potentially affect every prevous title achieved by drivers as them would retroactively be evaluated by changing current and future day standards.
That's such a tough question. Love Louis to bits, but Massa deserves that title too! It was heartbreaking to see him lose.
apparently you don't love him enough to spell his name correctly
@@unfortunately_fortunate2000 no bro, let him cook, obviously thats the sharl leclaire spelling
@@stephen2282 wow you're very trendy aren't ya
The difference between Singapore 2008 and AD21 is that there werent any rules broken in the AD21 race.
REALLY.....???
Rules were broken, but why should Hamilton be affected by something out of his control? Like you can’t blame max for what happened cause he didn’t influence decisions
I don't blame max.. but the 2008 was an injustice, hamilton let kimi go by then re-passed... but race director and stewards broke thier own rules... Sena-Prost style
like you said, if they do that, theyll have to go through every season and past champions will change based off whos in charge of the FIA. Bad precedent to set, and thats why they should keep it as is, in that the standings are final at the start of the awards ceremony, unless there is an an active investigation, which at that point they should postpone the ceremony until either the investigation is complete, or a month passes (whichever comes first)
Dont tease that poor poor Dame Lulu Possum, he already is in his twilight season
5:57 The same argument can be used on the RB cost cap breach as well. Much like LH and 2021, Max benefited from a situation he has no control over. Also, I don't think the situation can be compared to Lance Armstrong's, as Lance was not only taking PEDs, but also was involved in a whole scheme that involved procuring and coercing his team mates into using them, as well as ties with Dr. Michele Ferrari, which was infamous for being involved in several cases of doping of dozens of cyclicsts.
thats why it wont go through, the contenders for the championship in 2008 and 2021 werent directly involved in the controversy, so you cant really take away something from someone if they had no onvilvement in it
Although of course pro-cycling at that time was riddled with it, Lance just did doping the best in basically a whole field of doped riders.
The difference: there was a penalty given for the cost cap breach and no rules were broken in AD21.
@@tobiasz6613 They might still do it til this day for all we know. But Lance went beyond just using PEDs. If that was all he was to blame for, no one would bat an eye. At one point, he even tried to pretend his PED usage was part of his cancer treatment.
the fact that glock is still with us is a miracle
Glock's gamble worked. If he had pitted for wet tires he never would've been in front of Hamilton to begin with and Hamilton would've just finished 5th without the final corner drama
Speaking of courts settling a racing dispute - Bobby Unser and Mario Andretti just entered the chat
That would be a dream come true but sounds too good to be true
I feel like it would have been a beautiful addition to this video if you went even more crazy with the implications that results are not really final and can be contested with modern knowledge. 1994 is a good example (Benneton cheating, Schumacher just crashing into Hill as a desperation act after what was almost a thrown away title, especially with the colossal team mistake on the DQ at Silverstone), what about the political drama that defined the 1989 season and maybe even more that I don't know about because they are too far in the past.
Regardless a very good video playing with these implications on the most talked about cases. I don't think we have yet to see a world champ who didn't deserve the title. Taking it away sounds wrong to me even though Massa is the best driver of 2008 for me. It's a team game and Ferrari was already doing their modern Ferrari things, like messing up pitstops and throwing away races or having the worst reliability when it counts the most. Bernie doesn't like Lewis imo, if you think his 2008 title shouldn't have been his, then take away Schumachers 1994 title. That was in a cheating car, regardless of the heroics Michael produced in that year.
At least scandals and so on are just part of F1, as upsetting as they are. Trust me, others will be jealous that you've been around for the 2021 fiasco in quite some years. Unfortunately only 1 driver can win the title.
Yea the fuel hose still attached to the car leaving the pit lane I think it caught 🔥 as well.... What's is going on in Bernie's head??
It wasn't the crash that affected Massa's race. It was his teams botched pit Stop. Had they done their job, he would have retained his lead and more than likely won the race.
pamperton should be stripped of half of his titles, because he didnt deserve any of them, because fia has always bended rules in his favor
You are correct that the standings will not change. Far too many bodies buried to go down that slippery slope. Should Massa have won, yes. Is it fair to take the championship away from Louis as he was not involved directly? No but it also wasn't fair to Massa either as he was not an active participate either.
As far as AD goes, let's let that dead horse stay dead. Verstappen got the win, good, bad or indifferent.
There's no crying in F1.
On another note, the Piquet family seems to be shade adjacent a whole lot.
I agree that likely nothing will happen and I'm leaning more to that it should NOT happen at this point. Yes, Massa deserved that title because like Kimi, he got there despite the hardships (Kimi also had Ferrari blunders, and still won despite both them and Spygate); yes, the FIA knew about it because there have been documents and evidence shown, and yes, *at the time* the whole Singapore race should have been voided, because let's not forget, even putting Lewis, Massa, and Alonso aside, the events of the scandal affected EVERYONE'S race. Every last driver had their race artificially impacted, whether for the positive or the negative. But again, like I said above, I think it's too late and they should NOT take it from Lewis (maybe they could have a joint title for Massa, because if the race had been discounted as it should have, then he would have won🤷♂; but it's too late to take it from Lewis). I just find it stupid how the same people who are DEMANDING Max be stripped of his titles from something that no cheating was involved (and the rules were followed *as written* and unanimously agreed on by all teams), are now screeching in self-righteous indignation about a season that was tarnished with actual cheating. Can you say hypocrisy and double-standards?
On a side-note, if the FIA were to go back and examine all seasons, Schumi would probably lose his '94 championship, which would likely cause major backlash (though I suppose they could say that in '94 they weren't sure, whereas in '97, he was a repeat offender and got disqualified from the entire season). Senna and Prost might actually get one of their titles flipped. The '89 where they showed Prost turned in FAR earlier than ever (over the years, over practice and qualifying, and even during the actual race itself, he never turned in that early; in fact he turned in so early at that point in that race, that if not for colliding with Senna, he would have gone right off the track), and that season would go to Senna. On the other hand, when Senna returned the favor in '90, that would likely result in that title getting handed to Prost.
Massa didn't say the legal action is about taking the championship back - it could mean a whole manner of things including compensation.
No way will the FIA change the results of a championship that took place 15 years ago.
In these scenarios, shared titles would make sense. Give Massa a title but keep Hamilton with a title as well.
That's exactly what should have also happened in 2021!
If Massa won a court case which took Hamilton's title away then Hamilton would just challenge the result at Spa and easily win that case thus getting the title back.
Then Hamilton might also start talking about really what happened in 2007 when his engine suddently went into neutral at the Brazilian Grand Prix and cost him the title.
The problem with your argument is no rules were broken in AD21.
@@WH0oo... Not from the drivers. From Red Bull there is the budget cap breach but that's a debate for another day.
The stewards did break the rules though. That is the issue here.
@@barnigranero5882 SIN08 is at a conspiracy level where the FIA and F1 colluded to not investigate that race after credible evidence that crash was manufactured was presented to them. AD21 is not even close to that level. But 2021 had controversy throughout the season. As to the cost cap, the rules and penalties are clear. As a minor breech and a signed ABA, point reduction or DQ wasnt available as a penalty consideration. All rules were followed. Any complaints now is sour grapes.
Somehow, Alonso is a hero to many... He gets a free pass at everything
Because Alonso is one of the best F1 drivers of all time and has demonstrated that no matter how bad his equipment he is capable of extracting the most of it. That earns the respect and admiration of yhe fans. He is also just a fun guy to have around in the sport. He brings some personality to this boring ass sport
If someone proves that 2021 was something done on purpose to help one driver instead of a misinterpretation of the rules, then they could be compared. 🤷♂️ no one was banned of the sport after 2021, totally different situation.
But sure, Hamilton had nothing with the scandal and it would be absurd to take his title away after all these years.
I'm maybe one of the biggest anti Hamilton fans. I would of loved Massa to have won in 2008. But he didn't. 2021 was also filled with controversy, but then what year has not had any? Should 2020 count? What about Senna or Schumacher? They both could lose a championship as well as gain one some other year. 2008 champion is Lewis and 2021champion is Max. It is what it is.
Hamilton is a Preferred Species, and cannot be touched.
No chance. The only way it works out for Massa is if the race is deleted, but every other time it has been the driver/team disqualified,not the race being annulled. Don't get me wrong, Massa was very unfortunate and would absolutely have been a worthy champion in 2008 and I understand his point of view. That Bernie says the race should be annulled means nothing, even less given he himself put a lid on it at the time.
The difference between 2008 and 2021 is that in 2008 they would cancel the result of a whole race. Therefore do the same in 2021 and still Max Verstappen would be WDC
No, he's not about to lose a title, just like Michael Schumacher.
No.
Saved you 8 minutes.
Surely Hamilton and Mercedes will do an Aston Martin and say you can’t say this however long after the time it happened like when Astons podium was stolen
Abu Dhabi 2021 severely damaged my love for F1 to the point that it probably won't ever be fully repaired. I've obviously wanted the result of that race to be changed to what it should've been, but I must admit after watching this video if only that result was changed and not others like Singapore 2008 being completely voided due to crashgate, it would really show an insane lack of consistency, not that F1 these days isn't well known for it already.
The FIA should be held liable for financial losses but no driver should be affected.
If we do this, then we might as well tear up the entire seventy-two year history of Formula One, go over it with a fine tooth comb and reassess every single championship for its legitimacy.
So many factors could have changed that season. This dumb pit moment could have also happened if there was no safety car anyway. It should stand as it. Now IF, BIG IF, they overturn it, then they also need to overturn 2021, and look back at every close championship end. Either way Hamilton is a 7 time champion. We have all come to accept both championships by now. Lets just leave it alone.
I'm indifferent about this particular legal issue. While Massa has a case, it could conceivably be a Pandora's box of legal challenges dating back to the beginning of F1. That would be insane.
Massa was certainly a great driver, who greatly improved as Michael's teammate. It's obvious that he was capable of taking the challenge to anyone; and given an equal car, he could probably even beat Hamilton. Why? Because Massa knew what it was like to drive a crappy car, before getting his seat at Ferrari. He had that experience; and it allowed him to get the best out of a bad situation. Hamilton, on the other hand, had pretty much spent his entire F1 career driving a championship worthy car. Last year and this year, he's finally getting experience with a car that can't fight for the #1 spot... yet (who knows what modifications are coming down the pike?). No matter whether Hamilton keeps that title or loses it in court to Massa, he'll never be the greatest F1 driver of all time. I know that makes some people butt-hurt, but it's a hard truth. If he were to leave Mercedes for Haas, Williams or Alpine (for example) and help them become championship contenders and winners, THEN someone can start arguing for his greatness. Until then, he's just another guy who has the good fortune to drive the best car to championships. He did little else.
Same can be said for quite a lot of drivers, like I can see your point about Hamilton, however, I could argue back that actually there were lots of reg changes which could’ve swung the championship in other teams favours, but Mercedes were still on top for 8 years despite those changes which were all for “closer racing” so I would say he is still in the convo for number 1. Plus you don’t win championships without talent and that’s just facys
@@ishqiahmed4315
The FIA changed the rules several times, while Schumacher was champion; and it setback both Benetton and Ferrari at the time. He challenged for wins in cars that had no business in the podium; and helped the team overcome the rules changes by adapting. He was integral to the teams' continued development.
Mercedes was able to maintain their dominance, because they were so far ahead of everyone else when Hamilton joined them Toto has admitted as much. They never used the true full potential of their engine for the first few years; and were deliberately sandbagging, because they were afraid that the FIA would affect a rules change that took away that advantage. The other changes were far less of an impact on the car, until 2021. Mercedes still had a great engine, but they couldn't put it to use, because of the porpoising and handling issues that resulted from the new spec car. Since Russell had experience with driving cars that lacked the performance perfection that Hamilton had enjoyed for nigh on a decade, he was overjoyed at being able to finally drive a car that was leaps and bounds ahead of anything else that he's driven. That's why he's been able to regularly beat Hamilton, ever since he joined the team.
You've got a decision to make: Either Hamilton is as good as you believe, which makes Russell that much better, or I'm right... and Hamilton's titles are vastly more about the teams and the cars that he's driven with. I seriously doubt that many people believe that Russell is better than Hamilton at this point. So, that leaves you with Hamilton simply not being able to cope with anything but the best cars under him.
@@MickPsyphon I mean just cause he can’t drive this car doesn’t mean he’s not a good driver, like he has still scored podiums in a car difficult to drive and has had great performances, the car was never fast enough to win a race bar 1, it’s not like any of the 2019/2018 red bulls and Ferraris who won multiple races. Like one thing you have to consider is Lewis was the only one to give a good challenge to max which led them to being level on points going into the final round, and it could be said max was at a high level and so was Lewis, just cause he isn’t finding rhythm in the car he has right now doesn’t demeanour the potential/speed he still has
True F1 fans know Massa is the 2008 champion.
True F1 fans knows to look at the overall picture which points to Massa being hopeless in the wet races at Monaco (after a Ferrari front row lock out in quali) and Silverstone (spun 5 times, as I remember). Hungary and Singapore wouldn’t have mattered
True f1 fans know massa is so bad that he lewis just need to pass p5 AWHHAWHAW to take the world champ
They couldn’t possibly strip him of title after 15 years. If they did they would seriously have to look at verstappens first title.