Straight talk about lithium-ion battery safety | Auto Expert John Cadogan
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![เปิดใจ "อาจารย์เบียร์ คนตื่นธรรม" อดีตเคยสุดทุกทาง ถ้าใช้หนี้หมดไปบวชแน่ l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IxeE0xVhy08/mqdefault.jpg)
John, I'm involved in fire investigations. These lithium battery fires are next level. The first sign of thermal runaway will be white poisonous smoke followed (within seconds) by a ferocious fire essentially throwing flames like a flame thrower. If that fire is located in an exit point of that building, you're likely going to suffer burns trying to escape. Do not swap chargers, do not use damaged batteries and do not buy Chinese electric scooters. Even laptop batteries catch fire quite regularly .
Phones to ! :)
@@eunu6928 very very rarely when you consider how many are out there . But they do occur
Yes dont forget the Chinese baby food formula scandal!!
@@serenitynow66?? What’s that got to do with batteries?
@@serenitynow66 what are you talking about?
There are very few voices of reason across the internet advising safety and counter measures. You’re doing great work JC. It’s a crying shame that you’re almost alone in this.
Great Advice John, like you I have battery powered lawn mowers, and numerous other battery powered tools, I always charge mine in a cool part of my shed away from the house when needed and not overnight. I heard recently we had a fire in a lithium battery re-cycling plant here in West Yorkshire Uk so I googled the amount of fires and was amazed as well as shocked!...People really do need to take more care!
BYD has had 10 showrooms burn down. Unsurprisingly they claim the EV isn’t the problem but faulty wiring in the building….yeah right!
Poor quality build, Poor design would be the start. In time more reasons will come up.
Were the showrooms all around the world or limited to a certain country where the local wiring may not cope with the huge power requirements of charging an EV?
Burn Your Dealerships?
Links?
@@wizzyno1566 Links will get removed so just Google it.
When you said that the "borrowed" charger provided 84v into a battery spec'ed up for 52v input, that immediately just threw up dozens of red flags in my head. I'm worked in an electronics lab as an engineer that normally works with low voltage devices. I've seen first hand when you accidentally send 9v into a 5v device. The magic smoke is released in less than a second. Scaling that up around 10x the amount of energy, and a lack of proper engineering on some of these e-scooters, its a scary scenario. There definitely needs to be more education and regulation on battery packs and the safe use of them.
I'm sure most people have no real idea. If the thing plugs into the wall on one end and plugs in the device on the other, we're all good...right? Why do we not have different connectors for different voltages, for example, so the 84v one can't physically plug into the 52v one? Or, we mandate something along the lines of USB-C which has fixed wattage tiers that the device and charger agree to. 'Odd' voltage requirements and proprietary chargers would soon die if we had a universal standard.
The issue is that the consumer is in no position to know that the charger isn't suitable. There is only one place to prevent this and that's at the BMS and that's the responsibility of the battery pack manufacturer.
@@waiyinchung4242 And a system of incompatible interconnects!
@@MrBCRCor you can just read the sticker near the charging port
@@MrBCRCor just have a fuse on the input that blows anywhere near the peak safe charging amperage.
USB-C power supplies mostly will not put out more than a few milliwatts unless they get a signal they recognise nowadays so it shouldn’t be that expensive to add something like that to any charger and equipment (and you could make more selling chargers win win)
Thank you for this information that the news media will or has not covered. Thank you again.
Rechargeable Lithium-Ion batteries were perfected and commercialized by Japanese companies in the 1980s and 1990s for usage in personal electronics, such as Walkmans, cellphones, and laptops. The focus was always on how to make them smaller and lighter. They were never designed for extreme cold/heat conditions or external shocks (like collisions). Toyota only uses highest quality Panasonic batteries for its hybrids. Early Tesla models only also used highest-grade Panasonic batteries for safety, reliability, and longevity. Chevy Bolt used LG (South Korean) batteries and had many problems. Chinese EV companies use Chinese batteries, which is why the product quality is so inconsistent.
Chineese Batteries equals FIRE
Lithium-Chinesium
Tofu.dreg.chiinezeum
@@yo2trader539 Tesla still use Panasonic cells but don't forgot that have best activ thermal management sistem and a good quality and advantage BMS, overprotective short curent on every cell.
Tesla buy from CATL ( china ) cells and use them.
China offer good quality but users need to use the device in a good manner.
Panasonic cell will burn to if you put 6v+ on it.
@@yo2trader539 Tesla still use Panasonic cells but don't forgot that have best activ thermal management sistem and a good quality and advantage BMS, overprotective short curent on every cell.
Tesla buy from CATL ( china ) cells and use them.
China offer good quality but users need to use the device in a good manner.
Panasonic cell will burn to if you put 6v+ on it.
Well done John, such an important message expertly worded and delivered. This is why I follow your blog. Your breakdown of cause and effect is flawless
Daaaaaammmmn !!
Powerful video … This is one of Papa John’s lessons that should be taught to kids by their parents right along with don’t drop the hair dryer down in your bath water.
Kids the world over know better than to stick their fingers in an electrical receptacle, but modern low wattage phone batteries have given today’s kids a skewed view of the safety of battery powered systems.
Good job here with intellectualizing the dangers inherent to high wattage battery systems.
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
Here in Finland anyone who import anything is considered as the importer. Does not matter are you private person or a company. This basically means that if one imports an e-scooter and it burns a house down. The respossibility is on the importer of this device. Surprisingly people mostly do not know this and proceed buying sketchy products from overseas. This is problematic because the proper importing companies can't price in the proper products and stay competitive. We need proper legislation to manage this or it is just going to get worse.
@@waldemarii safety seems to be bottom of list if it’s “green” to do
Yes, but usually they ship from the EU, so the importer is the warehouse inside EU.
The Chinese are the masters of unconventional Warfare these products they make that are defective is done on purpose they get your purchase money and don't care if you have any problems with the product they laugh because western people are so nieve!!!!
Mr Reason. Best name for a risk management expert ever.
In today's world, Mr. Reason will be cancelled. Mr. Common Sense and Mr. Truth have died years ago.
Mr R E Tard is in charge
you make some very pertinent points. my view is the people pushing everything battery, prefer to keep us as mushrooms, to sell us more shit we don't need.
Yeah, as a pure Battery Vehicle owner... I hate waking up to a fully charged vehicle that never has Transmission, fuel, alternator, timing belt, valve, ect ect ect ect issues that I can just hope into and drive without worrying about any of the millions of things (moving parts) that are about to break on millions of ICE vehicles..... and that I can drive basically for free because it charged from my Solar Car Port... And it blows away Cars that guys spent 100s of thousands trying to make faster..... This is my happiest... looking at their faces after I torch them. This one dude in a Corvette (previous owner me)... had a giant supercharger and so much work done to his car... he was so much talk til we went to the Airport (strip)... He sold his vette the next week and bought a model X plaid.
@@skitzobunitostudios7427until it burns your house down
@@skitzobunitostudios7427 I have seen five piston vehicle fires in my street in the last twenty years. Teslas are lovely.
On a related note, not sure if you've heard about Aussie TH-camr @AllOffroad 4x4 Adventures TV and how a deep cycle battery supplier has taken defamation action over a critical (but apparently fair) review.
I've not seen the review video as Stefan from AllOffroad 4x4 Adventures TV was intimidated into taking it down, but Louis Rossmann did a pretty good job of summarising the drama, pointing out why the supplier is allegedly full of shit, and daring said supplier to come after him with a defamation suit.
That same said supplier was caught and berated for driving his company car all over Fraser Is riparian sand dunes. He cried like a baby.
@@aussiecue The battery supplier?
My main battery is Lead Acid . I think I will change almost all to Lead Acid.
@@aussiecuethe battery supplier drove his own company car? Isnt that his business anyway?
@@thomasa5619 He filmed himself and his sign written 4x4 driving illegally on the Island.
Shared to a few "blokes" pages JC. Love your work, your knowledge, AND the fact you don't seem to use a script but generally narrate it all in one take.👍👌
I agree with you on most topics. One thing I have noticed in "Merica" that we can buy high powered elic tools that are much more powerful than the lithium ion hand tools they are pushing down our throats. A couple examples I recently purchased from Harbor Freight were a Bauer Leaf blower and a cut off saw. I was cutting through a schedule 80 3" pipe with a battery operated cut off saw and it completely drained 2 fully charged 20V batteries and still had not completed the cut with a new disc. The batteries got so hot that the charger refused to charge them until they cooled down. I bought an inexpensive Warrior cut off for $9.99 and it cut right through like butter. The other environmental issue with these batteries is they usually end up in the regular garbage collection, polluting forever. A 1?2" drill with a 1" drill bit is another great example. I use 18650 batteries in my flashlight as well. I ride an ebike and enjoy it almost as much as my 80" Harley. I charge it outside and monitor it. I use a timer for a secondary safety precaution. I am a pilot and as you know we have 2 of all important safety items in case one fails. I will never own an EV or hybrid.
It is called supply and demand ... NO one is pushing lithium-ion power tools down your throat. In the construction industry, I always preferred corded power tools, and yet most everyone else was buying the more convenient less hassle of cords, battery operated power tools. Back in those days early on, battery tools came nowhere close to comparing to the power of a corded power tool ... and yet the battery power tools were still the most common tools used in most cases. These days with lithium-ion and that is for the most part no longer the case of not having enough power for most tools and situations. So these days I have less issue using battery operated power tools, but I still have no issue lugging around cords either or buying a corded tool.
I would happily own an EV if I were to ever buy a new vehicle. I have not purchased a brand new vehicle in decades though. When the Forester was first made was the last time I have done such, and it was my Ex's vehicle. I would never purchase a second hand EV, or at least not in the near distant future. Because there are too many idiots that have no clue how to properly maintain such. Which I do not blame them, it is something that they did not grow up knowing about, nor is the correct info readily available. While I am no expert, I know much more then just the basics of electronics in general, including batteries.
Bloody brilliant video John. I charge my power tool batteries during the day on a timer BUT I have not taken the ""shit I dropped it" factor into account. After one of your videos I watched and subscribed to STACHED. Very interesting to see vehicles turned into fireballs and bombs. One particular EV did a great impression of a pole vaulter and went 3 stories straight up. We all need to be reminded of the everyday things that can have devastating results under the right conditions.
Amongst other things I sell EV chargers. I tell people "charge your car outside, put the charger over there" and time and time again they tell me I am wrong, and they charge their cars indoors. Sometimes the garage adjoins the house, often the house door is left open.
If those cars even go off your can't run away fast enough to save yourself.
The fear isnt matched by facts
The arrogance of these people.
Thanks, John. I'm highly aware compared with average, but after watching this I did a whole house review and found a couple of danger points where carelessness has crept in. You're doing everybody a great service. 👍
Prof Paul Christensen does a great job of investigating and explaining the subject as does Stache D.
I would never charge a Li powered vehicle of any type near or in a dwelling after watching it. I've made a 3mm compartmentalized locker for charging and storage of power tool batteries in my shed.
@@sjbechet1111 go in stone age my friend :)
Your car have 12V that charge everytime when cat start your engine ! Do something with that to
Do you recommend I run these power tools are correct voltages connected directly to Lead Acid batteries?
@@eunu6928 You mean the lead acid battery it charges? be better
@@eunu6928 Lead acid is quite different to lithium ion.
@@eunu6928it's lead acid, I've boiled one of them and melted the case and lived to tell the tale. Now try that with lithium. But I guess you know the difference already.
Ive been in the home when a single 18650 inside a $300 bicycle light on its original charger went off like a rocket. Firstly white smoke followed by a powerful flame, spinning around the floor. Luckily it stayed connected to the charger so I was able to get it out of the house and threw it off the balcony where it took several mins to burn itself out. The house stunk for months but I feel extremely lucky I was home as my home and pets would most likely not be with us now. Yes a small torch like the one you are showing in the video.
At our Model Plane club most of us charge our Lithium Polymer ( So MORE volatile than even Lithium Ion) in ceramic cooking dishes or purpose made fireproof charging bags. We've done it for years, it's interesting to watch the general public take these risks.
Great video, all these points are very important, I wish they would teach this sort of thing in schools, so kids know how dangerous these things are and how to mitigate the possible risks.
I like to charge large batts when I'm home and awake. I do charge smaller batts over night but I charge them inside an old wood stove. My friends think I'm nuts.
Very Wise 👍 Your Friends should do the Same 😊
I do something similar: I keep all the Li-ion batteries for my RC planes in an ammo box, inside a (disused) wood stove.ll
@@gdutfulkbhh7537 Good on ya Mate 👍 i should put mine in my OzPig Stove Thanks for the Good idea Guys 👍
You are not nuts. I won’t charge any lithium tool batteries while I am not there.
I have an EV and it is always kept outside. It is charged at night and I have no worries. It is next to a brick wall, away from windows and stuff.
I also have a Powerwall. Chosen partly because it is the cheapest per kWh installed, but also that it can be put outside, not in the house. Again, that is outside, Ona wall with no windows or doors nearby.
Both car and battery have been arranged to minimise any negative outcome from the low risk of a battery fire.
I’ve long since decided I was not prepared to have any e-bikes on the property. There is just too much quality variation across manufacturers. Not worth the risk. I’ve also decided not to have any of those battery packs for charging your phone.
It just seems sensible to treat these things properly. Would I get another EV,? without a moments thought, yes, but I would not allow it in the house, such as an attached garage.
Really good video on how to assess risk from John here.
Charge them outdoor, away from combustibles.
Great Job on this video!
Thank You for really caring so much about us!
I work in an ER and I once saw a guy who had at least one tooth blown out of his mouth from a vape battery that exploded when he was inhaling from it. We saw another guy that had bad burns on his legs and groin from a vape that caught on fire in his jeans pocket.
Yet more cheap, poorly designed and non certified devices. Need certification for these things given their potential for danger to stop them ever getting into the country
So? I have seen people cut their fingers off, do we need to ban knives, saws etc?
@@Tsiikki I'm not saying ban them. I'm just pointing out how dangerous this Chinese made junk can be. The west needs to take back their manufacturing from China to ensure better quality products.
@@Tsiikki Knives and saws are useful. Vapes are just pointless poison waiting to block the line up in Emergency.
The "Project Farm" had a great video about counterfit power tool batteries. Many of these lacked protections common to brand batteries. Surpisingly some brand batteries lacked safety curcuit protections as well.
In the UK, the dangers of these fires remains a best kept secret. A large swathe of the population here hasn’t a CLUE about battery fires or what to do if it happens, or the risks of explosions toxicity etc.
It’s absolutely insane, and inexplicable. There needs to be mass education and publicity.
only a repeat of "September 1666" will knock some senses into them....
@@Chris-f7s2y money is in collecting them storing them and subsides in recycling biggest recycling company in uk recovers metal !thats it
ALL data should be available. Insurrance companies WILL have that data because they use it to calculate insurrance premiums.
If these type of fires happen often then that would mean insurrance companies would have to pay out in many cases. And they don't want to go bankrupt. So, that fire risk would be incorporated into the premiums. The more fires, the bigger the risk, the higher the premiums.
3rd floor wood structure apartment building with underground parking. As soon as I started seeing electric cars in the parking garage. Re-Wrote my renters insurance & bought a 3 story fire ladder that unrolls from my deck to the ground as a quick & easy back up plan if the hallway is blocked. Something I recommend to all.
Why didn't you have the fire ladder before?
Do you believe the chance of a fire in the garage was lower beforehand?
because believe it or not, the electric cars in the garage didn't change the chance of a fire occurring.
A-Frame ladders are being banned from work sites around Australia making construction workers have to carry platform ladders which are twice as heavy and much more awkward to use by law under workplace health and safety. Yet these batteries are being imported from a country known for its tofu dreg engineering and being carried into our living spaces.
Lithium has been used in small batteries in wrist wstches for decades and is very safe unless mistreated - I have seen 1st hand one of these virtually vapourize a watch many years ago after taking it in the sea and then drying it out over a gas stove ( my own stupidity from being young ) but now these batteries have grown the way they have and are becoming so popular, and are rechargeable... we now have a serious issue.
Glad your video is helping to highlight this.
Deepest condolences to the young mans family and friends.
With the push to electrify, what happens when that 1/1000's incident happens in an apartment parking garage, where usually it is under the homes above, if one vehicle goes up it takes more with it. Or the work environment in multi-floor buildings where the cars are parked under the building. As seen in Luton, UK, it's not just the threat of the fire and chemical off-gassing, but structural damage to the building, people aren't just looking at danger to life, but danger to living space, or livelihood.
That is the big one we're just waiting on to happen, it's a truly terrifying scenario! And as you say when structural damage/compromise come into play to...
From google.
Tesla has around 62kg of lithium in it.
This lithium has a volume of around 115L.
That is a big unextinguishable potential.
We are already there with ICE vehicles. Nothing changed.
There is examples of ICE cars catching fires in garages. In that case you just have the same issue as with BEV: Toxic fumes and structural damage, and due to it being a garage, it is difficult to extinguish in both cases.
By the time the Fire workers arrive, the fire will already have been spread and the temperature will be high already. Cars have, no matter if BEV or ICE, a hell of a lot of material for Fire to feed of, lots of plastics and other stuff that is a perfect catalyst.
I’ve got 20 good years left in me. I’ll be demented for the last 10 according to family history. Just bought 2 beast e-bikes one for the trails and one for speed and having the time of my life. Safe charging🤙🏽
2 good weeks left in you. Be lucky.
Let's remember:
Risk = incidence x severity / mitgation
It probably won't go wrong - but what happens if it does?
If the answer is "You burn to death and there's nothing you can do about it" then the risk is probably unacceptable.
Thankfully "You burn to death and there's nothing you can do about it" will not be the case with batteries, as there is that all important step you mentioned called mitigation. One can always mitigate with batteries. As with most things in life. For instance in this example. One can mitigate by not just randomly using some other charger that was not built, sold or designed for that specific e-bike. Instead use a qualified and appropriate charger for that specific e-bike. Have alternate escape routes available would be another, or charge only in an open area.
Dear John - WHAT A TIMELY VIDEO Bro! I've already commented on what has happened but I've Got the Commercial Second hand dealer by the "Posting Me A Lithium Bomb with Known and Visible Damage and Proof it's been in Water" by New Zealand Post ... Mr Cadogan They Posted me ... an RD delivery a fucking Bomb and Now to get a Full Refund they want me to post it back From a Registered RD Box ... This Business is now wanting me to post it back FFS ... Do you know how much fun I'm about to have ???
I'm going to get them to send me a !!Dangerous Goods!! label with Their Post Code on it.
And I Know it's going to be refused because I'm going to Package it to Look Like a Bomb ...
30 years ago in High School I had a friend and his house had no smoke detectors.
I constantly bothered him about it to no effect. I finally bought a detector for him and he refused to install it.
I ended up installing it myself. Weird, right? About a year after I moved away from Niagara Falls the detector functioned.
That Smoke Detector saved 2/3 humans and 1/2 cats from a massive house fire that consumed everything. My friend and his mom and one cat survived.
Good man. Atta boy.
Great stuff.
The main issue was that a whopping 84 volts with a higher current availability was used on a battery requiring and delivering up to 52 volts. The correct 52 volt charger would limit the current drawn as the battery charges up to 52 volts, when the source (charger) and battery voltages approached equilibrium where little or no further current would be drawn by the battery.
BUT the charger used would
be applying up to 84 volts so this could not happen. High current would continue to flow. Without any over voltage and excess current detection and protection against this in the battery itself, this is a complete recipe for a disaster.
Moral - Never use an incorrect charger, also consider requiring overcurrent and overvoltage protection in batteries.
Additionally, if the e-scooter battery had a Battery Management System (BMS) with over-voltage protection, it would have stopped charging once the maximum voltage for the battery was reached. It would be beneficial if a BMS were mandatory, even for inexpensive batteries.
That's really leaning towards blame the victim though, isn't it? What you're saying is 100% true, but it shouldn't _possible_ to overpower the device in the first place. Imagine if some petrol cars only accepted 20 litres a minute rather than the full 50 that the bowser can pump out _and_ there was no clicky thing to stop the flow so the petrol sprayed everywhere. That's kind what we're talking about here.
@davelloyd- Understanding the root cause of an accident is not blaming the victim. But you are right that good design of consumer products should make dangerous misuse almost impossible. For example, different shape plugs should make plugging in the incorrect voltage physically impossible.
@@davelloyd- I understand your concern, and I want to clarify that my intention was not to blame the victim. If it came across that way, I apologize. My point is that the manufacturer should be responsible for ensuring the safety of their products. Specifically, I believe that batteries using lithium chemistries such as LFP, NMC, and others should have mandatory over-voltage, over-current, and temperature protection. Most people don't know the differences between batteries, so manufacturers cannot assume that incorrect chargers won't be used. Therefore, they have a responsibility to make their products safe.🦺
So there was no battery protection in the scooter. Part of JC's point.
Hi JC, I sold the Suzuki Ignis I bought through you 3yrs ago, for over 80% of purchase price! Replaced it with a JDM Alto Turbo RS. Cheers from Canberra.
Your various commentary regarding this topic has spurred me on to isolate and secure the lithium batteries I possess in specialized storage containers.
The biggest issue with many of theses imported scooters and other products is that the charger is in the power adapter.
They need to make the power adapter a power supply and have the charging circuitry in the device with the battery with over volt protection thermal protection and overcurrent protection.
They don't want to do that because it adds weight to it. But I agree, that's what they should do. That's what they do in the EVs, so they can't charge more than they are designed to.
@@bytemark6508 I wonder how much weight that would be. I'm thinking it shouldn't be much more than a small circuit board with a transistor and a few custom chips on it. If it was in the device, they could also add thermo couples and the logic to shut off charging at a specific heat.
We in the RC community use fireproof bags to charge and carry our batteries they aren't expensive and a great place to keep a dropped battery for a few days.
I work in the insurance industry, we always require automated fire extinguishers above fork lift charging stations. Same should be required to private garages.
I am an electrical engineer , but most everyone else is not. They just expect appliances to work and this is not unreasonable. These situations will rise in direct proportion to the proliferation of large lithium batteries.
An important distinction lost on many - larger batteries = increased risk of failure and putting larger batteries in structures or close proximity surrounded by other larger batteries like garages, bus barns, or ESS farms means one single cell can fail thousands or tens of thousands. Low probability but very high consequence. We need to practice honest cost/risk vs benefit analyses for all applications of this technology for safety and the environment. Smaller battery is very acceptable risk. Giant battery pack in a semi-truck is not safe or good for the environment considering the resources required and potential environmental damage.
Yeah, I have been charging my 1000 watt scooter in a shed 80 metres away from our house for some time now . This grim dissertation only reinforces my decision, thanks John.
You're a wise man. Some people don't have that much property, so I'd suggest these devices might not be for them.
Sane here. Charging is a serious activity, not one to be taken lightly.
That's it I am powering my ebike directly from 3x 12v lead acid batteries... How to power my phone by lead acid batteries?
Recently had solar, battery and charger installed. All outside where they are a lower risk to the home occupants. Never had an issue with lithium cells. When I build battery packs I use a good battery control module, they are cheap insurance.
Well said. It's the dodgy made in China consumer stuff that's the problem.
This is a good video chap. I totally agree there needs to be a campaign of education as before this issue didn't exist with other batteries.
The time cutout on those lights has nothing to do with the battery.
The reason they turn off is because you're overdriving the LED chip to get that brightness. The LED heats up, severely limiting it's lifespan, so they make it so that it cuts out and you don't kill the light prematurely.
And you aren't going to find many electronics technicians who will be building battery packs. We understand how complex battery management systems are, and that's best left to engineers working in R&D departments.
Even if you get the electronic design perfect, theres still mechanical design, thermal design, systems integration and so on and so forth. Even attaching the wires to the cells is a non trivial matter requiring specialist tooling, essentially a capacitive discharge spot welder. Get it wrong and you overheat the battery and damage it. Get it wrong the other direction and it comes loose, overheats the battery and damages it.
This stuff isnt just hooking up a bunch of AAs.
I am qualified, I know what it takes and how to do it, and there is no way I'm doing it. Makita make a perfectly good battery pack thats quite reasonably priced for what it is. I just use those. It would cost me just as much to do my own and would be crap in comparison.
Thankyou for this presentation. No hyperbole, a nice measured discourse.
You're absolutely right, John. Risk management is what it's all about. When that is lacking, disaster is probable. What you said about the problems with charging e- scooters and e-bikes in apartment buildings is certainly true. Those buildings were not designed with a view to allowing for charging e-vehicles. I've seen a lot of videos online of disasters that have happened in high rise buildings (in China) as a result of e-scooters or e-bikes charging in lobbies and going into thermal runaway. Those vehicles are ubiquitous in China, and there are few precautions taken to prevent such disasters. Add to that poor engineering and lack of regulation of the production of such vehicles. People need to be aware of the risks.
Friends here in Sydney were evacuated from their block of units after an e bike hire company on the ground floor had a fire…..fortunately it wasn’t catastrophic, but it certainly had people asking questions….which were shut down pretty quickly
Glad you made this video as I wrote this to you before when you were freaking people out about electric everything. There's many battery types and chemistry and many small battery chargers have about 4 to 6 different battery options, then there's the amps rates and times. It's actually complicated if you don't know what your doing.
Well done to put this vid together.
Next you need to make a vid about houses not combusting everywhere and then show the same battery chemistry is in most EVs who's BMS are likely better than the house battery BMS.
Great video! Very informative. Thank you John for spreading the word of the potential dangers of lithium ion batteries.
Thats the 'good-oil' Brother, please everyone show your Families this Video.
Thank-YOU Lots ( as always )
My work mate 'like me' is a European trucker has one in his cab for when he is away from home in the UK, he uses it for exploring different places when abroad and parked up overnight, I have told him many times about these scooters catching fire which he chargers in his cab but he wont listen, if we are abroad together on a double load I don't park my truck near his overnight and he just thinks I'm dumb and a scaremonger..
You are correct Mate
Some people refuse to Listen = best to avoid them after a couple of attempts
Rule No 1 is You, and You are doing Very Well brother
do you hide from your mobile phone, laptop, power tools.....
@@ricardobrown4878 The bigger the battery the bigger fire with more cells to flare up, your just a moron to compare these gadgets.
There's a dangerous misconception among many EV true believers that EVs are "maintenance free". Just tyres and wiper blades and that's it. You see a lot of online bragging about how cheap they are to service. This is worrying. I've even read about some EVs which have "sealed for life" battery cooling systems. Nothing lasts forever, and cooling fluids with such critical duty cycles are surely a time bomb if they're expected to last forever or forced to because the owner thinks his machine is maintenance free. Time will tell but as the EV fleet gets older I fear more holes in the Swiss cheese will line up.
Everything needs to be maintained. My pc needs maintenance so an EV would need it. If it has moving parts then it's usually gonna want lubricating. It baffles me how folk think EVs don't need maintenance like you've said. With everything being "sealed for life" just means you're not allowed to try and fix and maintain it yourself.
I understand Tesla doesn't have specific service schedules but other manufacturers do. My Hyundai EV schedules coolant replacement every 4 years. Each year in service the battery is tested for isolation. As you say, as these cars get older and individuals decide to service or not service on their own with no professional input, how much will the risk increase?
saying you've never owned one?
@@hikaru9624 so you've clearly never owned one either? Zero maintenance
@@ricardobrown4878 that makes zero sense. Literally *_EVERYTHING_* needs to be maintained. EVs are no exception! They just make it impossible for the owner to maintain the vehicle so the manufacturers can fleece you for overpriced service.
I had a 30 watthour Ozito cordless battery go in thermal runaway and case melted its a real thing
Us that only when charging?
Thanks John, timely video. I always charge my e-scooter with the correct charger, and it's on a mechanical timer to automatically switch it off, works great.
Thanks John, great presentation. 👍
Great video. Well done sir. I hope everyone who sees this video pauses to really think about having Li powered products. Especially having an escape plan, and how to use and charge them properly. . Love the T-shirt. Takes me back a good number of years.
Quite honestly I am amazed we don't see many more battery tragedies than we do.
I must admit I am avoiding tunnels these days, especially in peak hour. I’ve been parking on the surface and walking rather than parking underground.
Call me paranoid….just considering the cost of risk management.
Mostly the safety features work and stop malfunctions that result in catastrophe. Mostly. Would a brand new and high quality eScooter with the correct charger have done this ?
We need PSA's like we used to have in the 80s but for the modern era. Normal people have no idea how dangerous these things can be in our modern era.
I had a look at a failed 48 volt bike battery for a customer and found how poorly it was made. A cast aluminium tube with the cells packed inside with enough adhesive around them so they couldn't be removed with silicon rubber acting as a buffer around them but the charging circuit internally was a tiny circuit board that I would suggest was more likely to cause problems and from what I could see was very under specified for what it was supposed to do. It wouldn't charge even with the right charger but I decided to leave it alone outside as I had no intention of trying to fix it as they are just too dangerous to mess with. So a three month old battery but what do you do with them? Is it right to take it to a recycling centre and hope it doesn't go bang there? And this had been sent from China as a brand new unit from a named company. I wonder why we need such toys!
I could not read passed the 1st sentence, thermal dissipation right there!
No brains or no interest.
Edit: sorry, not about the post, it's about the design of the battery pack.
They seem to think Kapton tape is a good insulator to put between two metal components which are in constant motion. You need moulded bumpers.
I have seen those battery disposal baskets at supermarkets and couldn't help thinking they were a fire risk during the wee small hours when everyone had gone home. Once those e-scooter batteries are done I wouldn't be surprised if some enterprising young scooter enthusuast might try and re-pack it. It may not be a good idea.
Good on you, John. Thanks for covering this important topic.
Safety is needed to be learned in Schools! Electric, petrol, road , window , bike, weights, cars, phones, etc ...
Every safety need to be learned in schools.
It is. They teach more than they did in the 90s.
@@Low760 glad to head that. Seems not all schoolers say attention:(
This is a fantastic video. A balanced view of the reality of our modern life with batteries.
It’s also a bit terrifying. I’ve got a 500 amp hour house battery in the back of my Overland vehicle and now I’m worried about my DIY setup. I wish I could get John to critique it for safety.
What a powerful case you made there. I recall years ago the BBC [in the UK] used to have public information films, one of which was to have a domestic escape plan [keeping egress routes clear if the lights had gone out]. So few people have a risk assessment/mitigation mentality and sadly consequences of negligent actions develop into tragedies.
The electric busses my employer now bought, run with iron phosphor batteries. When a bus lot burned down in the Netherlands due to a mail function charger everyone was worried about the thermal runaway of 9 batteries per bus, each with a weight of 250 kg. And there where 25 busses burning. Yet no thermal runaway of the batteries occured. Lithium ion batteries would have run away thermal. Iron phosphor batteries don't. They digged the batteries out of the burned down wrecks. Of course all the plastic was gone and all the insulation, yet the metall core of each battery where unharmed. They just put them into new housings, connecting them and did discovered them still being charged and fully useable. Thus here is the question: why are lithium ion batteries still legal and iron phosphor batteries that much more expensive?
Lower energy density made them less practical, but this is increasing and becoming less of a negative. They have now reached levels that are a good option.
Interesting, I am guessing money/cost is a deciding factor.
These batteries have a low nominal voltage that reduces energy.
They are a high self-discharging rate compared to other batteries.
Lithium iron phosphate/ LFP batteries have a low energy density, and more protection is required.
These batteries don’t perform well at low temperatures and need more protection and care.
Transportation and aging effects are also common in lithium iron phosphate batteries.
One of the drawbacks of LPF is deep discharge and low density. These flaws make these batteries unfit for small devices such as smartphones. Therefore mainly, these LFP batteries are used in LEV (low emission vehicles) and electric bikes.
Excellent video John. You hit the nail on the head about the lack of safety devices. Connecting an 80V charger to a 50V battery pack is obviously not a thing you should do however, as you said, either the battery should over-voltage protect itself or the charger should measure the battery voltage and set itself appropriately. I fly electric model aircraft and I use quite large batteries all the time. I also have a camper trailer with 200Ahr of LiPO4 batteries in it. All my batteries are charged with appropriate chargers and so far I have not had any problems however I never never never leave a lithum battery charging unattended. Even the camper trailer has monitoring that will alert me to any problems.
I live in a NYC apartment & love DIY e-bikes. My advice:
Learn the specs of your battery, BMS (please don't fiddle with a battery that doesn't have a BMS) & charger &, above all, make sure to match them. NEVER charge a battery unattended! Don't leave your batteries in your exit path. In apartments, where you can't charge outdoors, charge the batteries in an oven to contain the damage if there is thermal runaway (expensive if there is a disaster but it's cost of repairs vs cost of life).
Thanks, for a very informative "Straight talk about lithium-ion battery safety". A lot of information I have found useful.
I'm checking the Swiss Cheese story by James in a few minutes.
To a certain extent, dust could contribute to fire to starting, particularly when it is not cleared properly from battery to charger contacts. Also, rather than placing chargers near a doorway, placing it at the back of the room would be a better option, should the need arise for one to exit quickly. Best option, out in the middle of the back yard, plugged into a dedicated power point (definitely not a 10a household extension cord).
Thanks again John.
The answer will be for batteries of a certain type over a certain capacity. They need to legislate such that the charger has a unique plug
combined with a sexy electronic monitoring system to detect overload and auto shut off…..
CTEK chargers already have electronic monitoring and shut off for lead acid batteries on cars - but that’s to prevent cooking the battery and not to prevent a thermal runaway…..
I’m sure electronic monitoring and shutoff can be done
It’s just that when you buy these devices, the cheapest piece of garbage in the whole unit is usually the charger
We don't know if in this case the connectors were the same or not or if the human factor made things work. Humans never cease to amaze me at how good they are at getting a square peg in a round hole when they need to.
we can't make thousands of "unique connectors" but we can easily make chargers that recognise the voltage of the battery and batteries that have a chip that tells the charger what voltage and current it needs. It only takes two microcontrollers of a few cents each.
100% it's called a battery management system (BMS) . These devices should never be allowed into the country if they don't meet a base level of testing. Random testing of shops selling these units should also be done to shut down sellers that sell sub standard non certified products
@@derekharper6031that's not the full story, for one nothing is standardized, secondly it would be helpful if all chargers had something like a USBC protocol where the device can communicate with the charger on what type of electricity it expects.
Fantastic informative video you have put together here. Very sad for the couple who got caught up in the overcharging situation. This video will save lives. Its made me think regarding recharging of tools being a Plumber and gardening tools. Cheers from the UK
Jon
I looked past the roll of gaffer tape, at the charging station….didn’t see any bin camera.
A perfect summation of the risks of lithium ion batteries. Thanks John for your post. We all need to read this.
Never sleep anywhere that does not have a smoke alarm very close.
My camper has a smoke alarm and a fire extinguisher
Thank you John great advise i have been two complacent when i have so many batteries on charge what a wake up call.
With all the regulations re: internal wiring in a house and that is justified to prevent houses going up in flames. It seams a point is being missed.
Most Lithium Iron or other wise batteries have internal current limiting circuity as part of the battery pack. But not all. Where is the regulation on that mark?
100% agree. We have almost 0 regulations to allow potential explosive devices into the country and our homes.. it should start there at the border.
Timely video, thanks John. I have some Future Motion Onewheels in my house. Going to have a hard think about where I keep them.
So a hybrid vehicle with a much smaller battery pack, but still very large in a relative sense, would still have a significant fire hazard as well?
yes.
Yes
ten out of ten for that one mate well done
Excellent
There is something changed now as I was on a flight from the UK to Ireland recently (3 weeks ago as writing this message). Before the flight left the safety announcement asked all passengers to notify flight attendants if their phones or other devices had hot batteries. They have obviously had issues where devices have set alight.
Regarding power tools i do sell battery garden machinery and I do advise people to only put them on charge when you are actually awake and in the house, and also keep both the machine motor ventilation and battery ventilation clear of debris. This can help keep the motor cool so it doesn't overheat causing strain on the battery and clearing the battery ventilation also helps keep the cells cool.
Didn't know you are/were a weightlifter John.
Reasonable and valuable reporting from Mr. Cadogan.
Telsa Battery/Power Walls are a bit of a worry since most are stored indoors
why? The fear isn't backed up by stats. John is going on about cheap scooters and fools using the wrong charger.
The risk of power walls is lower but not absent. The issue with a power wall going up is that it has… a lot of power. There would be no mechanical vibration/shock risk. Hopefully the charger is designed fail safe and can talk to the BMS that is keeping an eye on each battery.. things like over voltage, over current, under voltage and cell balancing should be done. I have 40 degree over temperature sensors on all of my cells (separate to the bms) and also they have a safe guard to not charge below 5 degrees. They are also lifepo4 rather than your normal scooter battery which is lithium ion cobalt.
Even so.. I keep the pack outside in the garage with a connected smoke alarm.
The main issue is the down to manufacturer defects within the cell. If one of them had a dendrite that grows every time it is charged, it eventually pierces the separator between the two sides of that cell and current flows through it. This causes the separator to melt and the hole gets bigger. There is nothing you can do at that point.
Top advice as usual John. I've been fortunate enough to have worked for many years in safety critical and remote locations. This has taught me to assess everything objectively in safety and survival terms - deserts, oceans and jungles mainly - because help could be hours or days away. Unfortunately many people have not had this background training. It is a mindset that you have to develop and training and repetition is required to look at tools, equipment, procedures, situations and ask yourself what if ? Where is the energy stored ? How is it released? How do I escape ?
I always tried to train people to start with simple situations and assess them. One example is when you check into a hotel. Once your in your room and before you get down to some nasty overtime with Tiffany, take a couple of minutes to study your escape routes by walking the corridor and find the stairs etc. You only got to do it once and your all set to enjoy some Tiffany without a care in the world.
Excellent work John. BTW I liked the T shirt.
Great video, most of the technical aspects you’re 100% bang on.
I think there need to be better protection systems on batteries, that communicate with the chargers. That’s what happens right now with your phone and many other items. The charger and the device handshake and the optimal charging voltage and current is set.
Unfortunately we’re a bit lax in australia with the garbage we allow in.
As a bench technician (a few years ago now) the fact that the battery management system did not shut off the charging the moment the higher voltage charger was connected, I find frightening.
The wrong mix of risk Swiss cheese and survivability onion make for a bad $h1t sandwich
This whole Lithium-ion / EV craze is exactly that CRAZY! I have a "1/2" Hole hog" its at least 40 years old and I have not had to spend a dime on it since I bought it for $20.00. These battery powered drill motors today don't have anyway near the torque or duty cycle. Plus my drill still does the job.
For all those saying that batteries/EVs have got better because they can go further. (Magic new chemistry just around the corner)
Batteries still have the same charge density.
What they have done is make the battery bigger or stacked them differently so they can get more in.
the chemical mix has changed. Originally lithium ion, now phosphate, manganese etc,,,
@@ricardobrown4878 the energy density hasn't changed.
LFP are actually worse
John .... you absolutely excelled on this one .... well done . I could follow everything you said and it's all so true ! I loved the grim reaper analogy.. brilliant !
I have lots of those Ryobi power tool batteries ..18 and 36 volts and they are sold separately from the tools they go with .. but however, these tools do come with the appropriate charger for that battery ... by using the correct charger the battery will be given the correct rates of charge and will charge very quickly. I also have two of those big EGO 52volt 10 amp batteries and they come with a massive charging station with all kinds of protection and diagnostics ... it can charge the battery from its low level discharge point to max capacity in 45 minutes! These batteries aren't cheap ($500+ each) and I for one would NEVERthink of using any other charger.
You made a very good point at the end by saying when will the last charge will be it's last charge ... an end of service life indication circuit would be very useful ...
Is the risk is a faulty battery proportional to the number of cells? All else being equal of course. Things like a better BMS would also come into effect. But ignoring other factors, I would assume so. So if the single cell in your torch has say a 1 in a million chance of failing, does that mean your tesla battery have a 7000x greater chance of a problem? 1 in 142?
IMO the biggest risk in larger packs is the fact you have parallel cells, one cell fails to short, it becomes a load to all the other cells parallel to it-hello thermal runaway, also thermal issues in general in bigger high load packs.
Having individual fusable links on each cell would prevent the shorting failure mode in parallel cells (why that isn't a standard I don't know) but the other thermal issues remain.
Someone from our navy in Singapore told me that in camp they put items being charged in metal containers to contain any possible fire. So when I charge my phone at night I put it in a metal tin with a cutout for the charging cable. For my lithium car jump starter, I put it in a fireproof case, and then in a covered fish tank in the yard. I am going to collect and isolate disused items with lithium batteries, like an old laptop and phones.
Why do you charge your phone at night in the first place?
@@miskatonic6210 I don't sit still in the day so i charge during sleep. I use an app to estimate the time to fully charge before turning the phone off, and set a separate alarm clock to wake up to turn the charge off.
What about home solar batteries that have a higher capacity than a bike battery? A lot stored in garages.
There’s a recall on LG batteries right now as a result of fires.
I'd say a big issue is people overriding the battery controls. They get on Google and look up how to make that scooter that can do 15kmh, make some changes and now it does 60kmh.
It's not about power, it's about the voltage. The voltage of the charger was too much for the device.
If the charger had been rated at 200v and 0.5 amps (100W) it would still have happened.
And similarly, if the charger was rated at 1 kW @48V it would have been fine
It's never just voltage, you can't separate it from current.
Look up ohm's law and how it relates to volts and amps.
@@MattBrownbill the power rating of a charger is just that - it's its maximum rating. It can supply less power, but not more. The voltage is fixed but the current varies with the load (resistance).
The problem here was the voltage of the charger was higher than the batteries
From the Grim Reaper to Swiss cheese! John Cadogan's analogy game is bonkers!
😂
FOR ALL VIEWERS OF THIS VIDEO..... Lithium Ion batteries already have their days numbered. Battery production has already made a huge shift towards battery technology that basically cannot self ignite nor even be a fuel for an externally triggered fire. It is also the same if over charged.
These scooter batteries are way under regulated and are far too easy to buy from abroad and therefore not necessarily under a standardised design.
There are standards for storing petroleum safely, just like fireworks. People should observe similar warnings for batteries as well as chargers
I'm glad John did this video, attention needs bringing to the subject and it's risks, it's just a shame people had to suffer.
So..... what metal for electric potential are they using in that new tech?
@@_Hal9000 The lithium isn't the issue, it's the electrolyte that's combustible. Solid state batteries don't use flammable liquid electrolytes. Lithium, like with sodium batteries is a very abundant material.
TBH, it's evolving incredibly quickly at the moment, by the time they have found a new element combination and manufacturing method, the next improvement is already starting to be explored
@@Dr-EV
I would argue that the reactive properties of lithium are its advantage and its danger and that it is the issue in most run away reactions.
@@_Hal9000 Don't forget, it's not the lithium that's the fire hazard, it's the liquid electrolyte. It's a bit like saying the plastic fuel tank is the flammable risk instead of the fuel inside it.
@@Dr-EV
Yes and no.
Some electrolytes are part lithium (obviously in ion form traversing or in complex the electrolyte itself).
If i am not mistaken lithium has the most potential for run away reaction in this whole mixture of compounds.
Since lithium wants to be in stable oxydized form, given the accumulator leaks and has air contact.
One of the best videos I've seen for a very long time; definitely a much needed "public service announcement", just a shame the public who need to see it, won't!
As far as small appliances are concerned, I blame the importers and lack of government regulation. Simple solution in this case in my view. All small appliances containing lithium batteries should have electrical cut-off systems when overcharging is detected. All appliances without such a safety system should be banned from import..
I agree, we used to have regulations around such imports. But it seems to have fallen by the wayside. I have come across an apple I-phone charger recently that was live at the phone jack. Tripped the whole unit when his missus dropped it on the stainless stove top. Bought in an apple store....hmmm. Imagine a kid with it in its mouth. We are importing landfill.
@sirgregoir I understand where you are coming from. The problem is retailer's are accustomed to making a 1000% profit on an item these days. I worked for a retailer in the 70's and he was happy to make 100%. Therein lies the problem. Pure greed..
As someone who enjoyed RC enthusiast, I had a few RC helicopters that used some of the first lithium polymer battery packs! After two packs, they started smoking and fire quickly after I gave up on the hobby! Now I say this because they made me fear all lithium batteries and what charges them! These things are dangerous even in small packages. Fortunately I had read and paid attention to the warnings.
I've had now three Samsung Flagshit phone batteries swell up and go shit in their trousers and separate the screen and battery from the phone in the Galaxy and Ultra Series!
Potentially convenient feature as the hardest part of a battery swap is separating the screen.
My own experience is a Dell XPS laptop where the mouse pad was ejecting itself from the laptop. Opened it up to find a nice fluffy pillow of a battery.
Do what I did...
Stop buying Samshite products.
@@sahhullUnfortunately it's not just Samsung. EVERY modern mobile phone now uses the cheapest Chinese battery manufacturer, especially Apple !!!
Older mobile phones had much much, more reliable batteries because they used to be made in Korea and Japan.
@@edwardfletcher7790 And they seal the bastards so you can't replace them before they swell. Pricks.
@@edwardfletcher7790and you could simply pop out the old battery and pop in a new one, took seconds.