This was a great video. You seem really knowledgable about Ancient Greek philosophy. It helped open my mind to the fact that we can see The Republic Books II-III as Plato responding to past thinkers and philosophers. One of the things people like to talk about when it comes to Plato (in my experience) and his influences from previous thinkers is how he was extremely critical of Homer and tried to subvert his influence over Greek culture, religion and society (literally wanting to ban poetry and art). I was therefore wondering whether Plato was influenced at all by Hesiod (contrasting them may also highlight the relationship and development of both mythology and philosophy). This is a contrast that I have virtually never seen discussed before. I also believe I have found one possible way that Plato was developing an idea previously promoted by Hesiod. In Hesiod’s Theogony one of the most popular ideas is something referred to as the ‘Ages of Man’. The Ages of Man are the historical stages of human existence according to Greek Mythology (and later Roman interpretation with Ovid). Hesiod offered an account of the successive ages of humanity, which tend to progress from an original, long-gone age in which humans enjoyed a nearly divine existence to the current age of the writer, in which humans are beset by innumerable pains and evils. In the two accounts that survive from Ancient Greece and Rome, this degradation of the human condition over time is indicated symbolically with metals of successively decreasing value (but increasing hardness). In Hesiod’s Account we have five ages in total and they include: the Golden Age, the Silver Age, the Bronze Age, the Heroic Age and the Iron Age. An example Plato uses in one of his works stood out to me as ‘Hesidion’ in nature. This can be found in Book III in the Republic. It can be seen with Plato’s Defense of the ‘Myth of Metals’. In this work, Plato discussed this concept of the ideal city and he promotes three social classes in this society (the guardians, the auxiliaries, the producers). Plato (with Socrates as the main character in this dialogue) says that all the citizens should be told a “noble lie” (what we may call propaganda today) so as to promote allegiance to the State and enforce its three-tiered/triadic social order. According to this ‘myth of the metals’, every citizen is born out of the earth of the State and every other citizen is his brother or sister. Yet God (or the gods) has framed them differently, mixing different metals into their soul: gold for the rulers/guardians, silver for the auxiliaries, and brass or iron for the producers/craftsmen. Children are usually made of the same metal as their parents, but if this is not the case the child must either descend or ascend in the social order. If ever a child made of brass or iron was to become a guardian, the State would be destroyed. As guardians are made of divine gold and silver, they should have nothing to do with the earthly sorts which have been ‘the source of many unholy deeds’. Now, for me personally, this seems way to similar to the ideas being promoted by Hesiod to be a coincidence and Plato would of course have been aware of his work. So, to close my remarks, what did Plato actually think of Hesiod? Was he in favour of him or was he opposed to him? Do you agree with me that Plato was responding to Hesiod as one of his intellectual antecedents when it comes to the similarity of Hesiod’s ‘Ages of Man’ and Plato’s ‘Myth of Metals’? To what degree is Plato relying on, developing, or contradicting Hesiod? Was Plato even potentially responding to other previous thinkers ideas (other than Hesiod) in Book II-III of the Republic (ones that I have not thought of)? Thanks.
This is an interesting thought. I have very little experience with Hesiod- but you are making me want to delve in soon. I would be surprised if Plato didn't have an eye for any of the poets that were influential in his day, but I can't speak to this one particularly. I think any poet that spoke of the gods (or heroes) would be fair game for criticism in Books 2-3 of the Republic (Book X as well)
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2Thessalonians 2:11,12
This was a great video. You seem really knowledgable about Ancient Greek philosophy. It helped open my mind to the fact that we can see The Republic Books II-III as Plato responding to past thinkers and philosophers. One of the things people like to talk about when it comes to Plato (in my experience) and his influences from previous thinkers is how he was extremely critical of Homer and tried to subvert his influence over Greek culture, religion and society (literally wanting to ban poetry and art). I was therefore wondering whether Plato was influenced at all by Hesiod (contrasting them may also highlight the relationship and development of both mythology and philosophy). This is a contrast that I have virtually never seen discussed before.
I also believe I have found one possible way that Plato was developing an idea previously promoted by Hesiod. In Hesiod’s Theogony one of the most popular ideas is something referred to as the ‘Ages of Man’. The Ages of Man are the historical stages of human existence according to Greek Mythology (and later Roman interpretation with Ovid). Hesiod offered an account of the successive ages of humanity, which tend to progress from an original, long-gone age in which humans enjoyed a nearly divine existence to the current age of the writer, in which humans are beset by innumerable pains and evils. In the two accounts that survive from Ancient Greece and Rome, this degradation of the human condition over time is indicated symbolically with metals of successively decreasing value (but increasing hardness). In Hesiod’s Account we have five ages in total and they include: the Golden Age, the Silver Age, the Bronze Age, the Heroic Age and the Iron Age.
An example Plato uses in one of his works stood out to me as ‘Hesidion’ in nature. This can be found in Book III in the Republic. It can be seen with Plato’s Defense of the ‘Myth of Metals’. In this work, Plato discussed this concept of the ideal city and he promotes three social classes in this society (the guardians, the auxiliaries, the producers). Plato (with Socrates as the main character in this dialogue) says that all the citizens should be told a “noble lie” (what we may call propaganda today) so as to promote allegiance to the State and enforce its three-tiered/triadic social order. According to this ‘myth of the metals’, every citizen is born out of the earth of the State and every other citizen is his brother or sister. Yet God (or the gods) has framed them differently, mixing different metals into their soul: gold for the rulers/guardians, silver for the auxiliaries, and brass or iron for the producers/craftsmen. Children are usually made of the same metal as their parents, but if this is not the case the child must either descend or ascend in the social order. If ever a child made of brass or iron was to become a guardian, the State would be destroyed. As guardians are made of divine gold and silver, they should have nothing to do with the earthly sorts which have been ‘the source of many unholy deeds’.
Now, for me personally, this seems way to similar to the ideas being promoted by Hesiod to be a coincidence and Plato would of course have been aware of his work.
So, to close my remarks, what did Plato actually think of Hesiod? Was he in favour of him or was he opposed to him? Do you agree with me that Plato was responding to Hesiod as one of his intellectual antecedents when it comes to the similarity of Hesiod’s ‘Ages of Man’ and Plato’s ‘Myth of Metals’? To what degree is Plato relying on, developing, or contradicting Hesiod? Was Plato even potentially responding to other previous thinkers ideas (other than Hesiod) in Book II-III of the Republic (ones that I have not thought of)? Thanks.
This is an interesting thought. I have very little experience with Hesiod- but you are making me want to delve in soon. I would be surprised if Plato didn't have an eye for any of the poets that were influential in his day, but I can't speak to this one particularly. I think any poet that spoke of the gods (or heroes) would be fair game for criticism in Books 2-3 of the Republic (Book X as well)
A lie is still a lie
Regardless of it's
Percieved nobelness or nobility.
And prison is still a place.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2Thessalonians 2:11,12
The first best practice
Allan Bloom is bae
I have an Uber driver I used the noble lie all the time
I’m Gold baby👼🏻
@chesstrashtalk999 huh
@@joyfulsavage9905 whatd they say their comment is gone
Plato was right in general with the metal metaphor. Certain people are born with gold and some with brass.