I wish they would also look into the relationship of childhood trauma, abusive household and parents in the role of creating these people as well. Sometimes the enmeshment happens as a result of trauma and there seems no way out for the child other then serve the abuser for the rest of your life, all this also as a result of learned helplessness more than the desire and fantasies
Joseph seems more understanding and insightful when talking about these issues. I get a real feeling of judgment from the other two. Sometimes people fail to launch because they don't have tools, information, or support, and the only adult role models they see are people who, for valid reasons, they don't want to emulate. Assuming they are stunted and lazy creatures who just don't want to do the work, is part of the reason they don't reach out for help and try to work through it. It's too shaming.
Too shaming or too overwhelming without any tools? Or not enough curiosity to explore inner feelings of inadequacy and confusion. Psychology truly needs to be mandatory in all schools, at least beginning in Middle schools. Without exposure to psychology, young people will become more conflicted than ever. Without looking within, young people will be consumed by superficiality, unless they are able to find (or create) real love. The only freedom from a meaningless life will be from having a specific interest and development of their quest to learn, based on whatever captivates their young, bright minds.
I read your comment before I really delved into the podcast, so I'll keep this in mind while listening. I agree that the why is not always what it might look like on the surface. VERY important for clinicians to keep in mind.
Childhood trauma, especially very early on, can cause this. Don't smoke, don't drink, don't do drugs and experiencing a little puer-puella can keep a person young. js
I don't know whether I fully qualify for this etiquette. I used to desire to be a full blown adult but I didn't realise I was brought up and surrounded by a bunch of very immature people and my idea of adulthood was very skewed or superficial. Eventually, having failed twice at creating a family or having a career I regressed to some sort of an infantile state like a snail who curled back up into its shell. I don't perceive this state as particularly fantastic or cool or anything like that even though it allows me to be creative and imaginative unlike most adults I know. What holds me in this state is not its fabulous appeal but visceral disgust and aversion towards the thing called ”adulthood”. It's like a dish that I was very eager to try. I did. It made me sick and now I just can't even look at it.
Growing takes time and desire. It sounds that you have underlying issues, from childhood that need to be examined. Also, did you experience a needed grievance? That alone, will send you back into Snail Mode. Yes, life is challenging!
Aren't they two sides of the same coin? I'd challenge the idea of having attained "full blown adulthood" and then collapsing into an "infantile state" after some set backs .... By definition, for me anyway, adulthood is the capacity to overcome / work through set backs. It's the child who collapses into incapacity when a failure arrives. An adult sees that success can only be accompanied by failure.
He talks about cultural poison... Forget to mentioned something along the lines of ' adjusting to a mentally ill society...' Another interesting topic, is that of 'sacrifice' To Sacrifice, is to birth action out of fear... To act out of love, and reciprocity, aren't part of the incentives in current global culture ...
You haven’t reached full adulthood as you are convinced that you say you have. It’s the psyche’s way of playing mental gymnastics to justify things to avoid facing accountability.
Powerful. I needed this to wake up to myself. I self sabotage and stay trapped in my addictions that ruined my life force. I fear the responsibility of consistent adulthood. The every day of ordinary. So this video l will consistently listen too. Like having very wise parents l can go too and learn. How to be in reality of facts, and find my extraordinary in the ordinary day. Find my own wonders. Yes to my life. Thank you for this very clear language so we all can get it. Thus save ourselves.
Yes, many people are trapped in their inner child, but honestly, is it their fault when they had an overcontrolling parent and shitty childhood? Even when they realize that life is not as they wanted and they have wishful thinking, are we going to judge them? There are many people who have no good education, they have no brain cells or determination in the prefrontal cortex to get any good education and they struggle to get a decent job and fulfil their potential. It is sad as it is, but childhood trauma is no joke. I think this form of wishful thinking is coming from the same place as narcissism, even though this is more toxic for the individual himself than for others who come into contact with him. Religions, spirituality, the law of attraction are probably also coming from the same place. If the individual perceives that they live life in a terribly wrong way and they feel no inner strength to make their life any better, the brain will probably try to create some form of mental homeostasis and will make people think that "maybe once" the luck will visit me, or I will win the scratch card, or "angel from heaven" will save me, or whatever. It is not a persons fault to have such thinking. Some people are really in such deep mud and they've missed 30 years of momentum. It is not easy to be very conscious of it, daily. Yes, some can be pushed heavily out of a comfort zone, and do something about it, but some can't even think about it for a minute, therefore there are many people who are alcoholics, porn addicts, drug addicts. To see reality as it is can be very painful for some. Someone who has a shitty CV in their 40's is not in a great life position also without a good education unless he enjoys mundane low paid jobs or has a very strong entrepreneurial spirit. There are many people who just strive to live life in some basic way and thinking about it makes them feel deep pain.
I think many of those people (myself included) are suffering the effects of some sort of childhood emotional neglect. The book Running on Empty by Jonice Webb addresses a lot of issues like these (being stuck due to lack of momentum from earlier years) and reading it has turned me towards an unprecedented amount of inner empowerment and wisdom. It's painful to think about, there's a lot of shame, but we have to do it, we owe it to ourselves
48 and been doing the work for a few years. Im not into blaming anyone anymore, just focusing on taking the steps to make it better now. CPTSD, Anima integration, Shadow integration, meditation, bioenergetics and so on. Mind body and soul alignment. Toxic shame has imprisoned me long enough.
Thank u so much ! For this , the part Joseph brings up about not turning inward and following the flow of inner life , and instead doing a cost analysis with a degree , happened to me , and many others I know because of the culture we live in … I look back thinking man I was so entrenched and trapped so physically numb .. and also encased still in my inner child immobile against my parents demand .. unable to take responsibility for my needs , now at 31 it’s different … the values have shifted tremendously between generations , in much subtler ways then the overt extrovert 60s rebellion between generations .. now what I feel is happening is a inward rebellion .. why so many of us are stuck .. holding tension of opposites in our psyche sphere ..
I'm very new to this podcast, really enjoying and learning a lot. More importantly, I'm getting a lot of understanding about myself and that is true about this episode in particular. I believe this is about me and the thing that stopped me from developing is multi generational trauma and the archetype of death mother. The turn around came a couple of years ago, at age 46 and was a spiritual awakening. There is still a whole lot of work to be done, but I just know I'm finally coming alive. Thank you for your help. Many years ago someone told me, "when the student is ready, the teacher will arrive" and that certaintly is true in my own experience. Life unfolds in the timeframe of the divine/God/psyche not mine or anyone elses.
This was so beautifully reasoned. I think this is an important theory to keep in mind when considering the complexity of “ personality disorders” as a result of developmental trauma and emeshment- something that also rings out to me when thinking about the Rapunzel myth- the Mother/Witch figure actively manipulated Rapunzel to be her companion and made the outside world scary... the call from the Prince was indeed a call to Life and all the inevitable suffering that comes with it... How does one come to the realization that this is the only path to living? I think this Jungian theory has much to offer modern psychiatry/psychology... My own subconscious brings forth these images/ stories nudging me to go into the fray... but the dysfunctional dependency on my Mother and my own deep discomfort with Death and the sands of time reliving possibilities is truly excruciating... That was a great example with the deep ambivalence of Motherhood and the irreversible changes to the Self that comes with it... especially if you have unresolved Mother complexes within. Thank you so much for this...
Your thoughts are well expressed; the Mother Complex is a bitch. I can relate to this curse. My relationship was complicated. Bottom line, it took me a lifetime to realize that mother did not Bond with me. This reality came to me in a lifelike dream, only months ago. In adulthood, I unwound my parents relationship in order to find why their family of 4 children was dysfunctional. My advice is to find a Jungian Analyst to help you; I treated myself via isolation and self observation, plus dozens of TH-cam self help videos. I do believe that we, only, can heal ourselves - however, commiting to trained insight to guide us will save time, and allow for valuable and needed wisdom. Best Wishes to you, my younger friend.
@@kirstinstrand6292 Thank you so much for your response. My soul has been calling me to solitude to parse out my voice from the internalized Mother voice - from not just my Mother, but what was passed down psychically through the generations. Again thank you and hope you and your family stay safe.
I'm living the Puer Aeternus life, and will continue to do so very happily. Yes, there is suffering related to this state of mind, but not more than to any other state of mind! To exist, means we have to suffer to a certain extent. The balance, cost and reward is up to each and everyone of us to find for ourselves. Actually, the suffering might be a lot less compared to the "adult-life" if the other aspects of the personality type / temperament naturally fits this way of living. The negative focus and seeking out errors is a bit overfocused in the analyzis of the Puer -even sensing some kind of jealousy sometimes that some of us are brave enough to remain free and live free, even though you might read into it that this freedom-seeking itself eventually becomes a prison. Someone needs to refresh the perspective on the puer aeternis and make a vid highlighting more of the upsides and what the benefits of accepting this archetype contains.
@@cosmofox Nope, just stating the fact that as long as you exist as a human being there will be a certain amount of suffering, regardless. If you can't agree with this basic truth there might be some serious suppression going on.
Is it a full life for you? It's definitely not for me and I'm too afraid to evolve beyond it. I fell sad and very uncomfortable to be stuck in perpetual puella mode.
I’m half way through and fully relate. I’m 45 and as soon as I turned 40, something changed and I woke up from the illusion! It was all due to childhood trauma! Anyways, for last 5 years I’ve been trying to change the status quo in my life! Anyways, great topic and very reflective 🙏🏽 Thank you guys ❤️🤗
"What blocks them or what is the appeal of remaining like this both are good questions. For myself, the answer is, I didn't see anything else, didn't know better and I was afraid to assume any success for myself, I did it only when I played a role for someone else (mother, wife, the best employee) but inside I felt no fulfillment. After listening today, it all makes better sense, I got all kinds of explanations from therapy, but this video clarified stuff. Thank you!
27:00 thank you very much for your input here Joseph. I would be really curious to know what kind of archetypes you're talking about here, ones related to one's life path/trajectory etc. I'm more curious here because the archetypes I am familiar with--old man, trickster, fool, etc.-- don't really seem to be related to a personal life path/journey etc.
Initiation - that what makes an adult out of a child. What makes initiation attractive for a child? The offer of partaking in the deeper profundity of the adult world. In our kind of society initiation offers what? Partaking in consumerism? Partaking in the callousness of neo-liberalism?
Really loving these podcasts. I’ve been gradually going through them since I found this channel a month or so ago. You folks provide a seriously enlightening perspective on Jungian ideas.
I have to tell you, besides the amazing content and wisdom being shared here, I find you three so easy to listen to and love the deliberate, respectful, easy way you converse ❤ Thank you for offering this channel!
Very helpful. I’ve just started analysis and I think I am slowly being confronted with this archetype in me. However, I still don’t see the case being made for “growing up”. There’s a lot of emphasis on sacrifice and going through the hardships of adulthood. Why would one want to willingly choose to endure the hardships of adulthood? As cryptic as it may sound, death sounds like a better choice.
Jungian analysis could really use a dose of the sociological perspective. There are social and economic reasons people are delaying life later these days and many women feel it impractical to have children.
no jung by a jungian analyst mary luis von franz ,claims that this is because of overprotective mothers ,this podcast didnt touched on it idky but read the problem with puer aeternus to know more
Trying to treat after the fact is extremely difficult. You can't unspoil something spoiled. Usually, it's the parent providing too much comfort which limits teen/pre teens from developing coping mechanisms to handle difficult choices situations. Send your kids to Boy/cub scouts, varsity sports, camp etc. These activities require making tough choices that can lead to the loss of a game, letting down team members etc all without the parents being around at all. These activities develop skills for children to be comfortable with being uncomfortable which most puer/puellas lack.
The dream - she has the desire for life but she refuses transformation but through some luck has dodged being poisoned by her desires (still optimistic). She is trying to protect her inner child, but realizes she is strong enough to to take the leap.
Wow. What an episode. You guys knocked it out of the park. Again. Proud to be your patreon. When you read the todays dream.. The last line there.. "you dont have to be afraid for me" it touched my heart. Dont know how or why. Really cool anyway. 👍
I'm curious how this applies to people who have been in toxic relationships for a substantial amount of time. Personally speaking, I was with someone who I felt like a mother to (narc/puer partner). Now that I have my freedom, I'm reluctant to recommit to someone for fear of being trapped in another toxic relationship. I am now exploring things that I didn't have the time or energy for, which may seem like a puella phase - but I do desire to have a long term partner once I have my feet under me again and have worked through some of the issues I have from my past relationship. I'm just curious about your feedback on this.
I'd like to hear some discussion around the "Puer/Puella" grown old. The crux between not wanting to grow up yet not wanting to become dependent upon others for activities of daily living -- like a child!
That'd be interesting. After severe narcissistic abuses, by my white nationalist bros, I've aged considerably. Wrestling with that now requiring more help, at 71. My puella late sister was eating disorderd+ and DPD. Failed to launch, just like the boys. Not that I did entirely. But, I was always in the game.
It is hard to admit. I guess I was a puer up until my 30s. The pressure of taking care of a mentally ill family member along with the pressure of keeping a job at all costs got me out of my puer state. I am scarred. I know that. But I think I have a better handle on my life now. It is too bad that it took over 20 years to reach thst transformation.
That is some dream! Actually it was almost frightening; a very complex dream that I would not attempt analyzing unless knowing her history, which most likely has much difficulty, if not trauma in it. Such a dream will likely become clearer with time, as she continues to live her life. I feel for her.
I made great effort to keep my inner child, but I still want to “grow up” to connect with others and live a real life. I desire a life of creativity and connection.
What would be the difference between a sort of gypsy type archetype and a puella /pur … like both sort of have a wandering spirit .. what maturates the gypsy that the puella / pur doesn’t have ?
I'm listening to this while playing 7 Days to Die. On the other hand, I'm within striking distance of completing a master's degree in mental health counseling. Online gaming is such a bogeymen to people who've never played, it's reminiscent of the satanic panic of the 80's.
I think many people in their 30s right now are trapped in this, to some degree, against our own wills due to difficulty with things like finding a stable career, even if we know what we want to do and are qualified for it.
Exactly. You can reduce everything to an individual resistance to grow up. Many women are choosing not to have children because they either can’t afford it or can’t balance it with their career life...or just don’t want to. I’ve heard to many Jungians claim that women who don’t seek motherhood are “clinging to Aphrodite.”
@@spectralv709 I do know a lot of people who actively resist growing up because they don't want to feel limited or challenge their comfort, but then there are people like myself and my friends who know what we want in life but keep encountering these barriers that lock us in the ante-room. It is a societal problem that becomes an individual problem when the individual lies down and accepts their fate of being trapped there rather than rising up against it. I think the women who opt out of motherhood *specifically* because of how it'll affect their appearance are clinging to Aphrodite (though, ultimately, that is their business), but for many of us it is because we wish to realize our potential elsewhere, don't want a child we can't adequately care for, have reproductive/skeletal/other health issues that could make childbearing much more than we bargained for (or, in my case, all of the above). These analysts thankfully have nuanced views, I had the good luck of receiving services from one of them when I was younger and I know at least she is very much for women self-actualizing in a way that suits them whether that is motherhood, something else, or a combination. I think at the end of the day, what's important is that we at least choose a path to growth rather than submitting to stagnation, and if society does not provide us that path we should try and carve it out ourselves.
Peter pan is happy without having to achieve anything at all just as any child or animal. It is the senex that cannot be happy without the freedom of the child.
very interesting, not everything in black or white, to what degree do outside forces play on the need to leave one's childhood and find their true self?
As I get older I tend to realize that people are both amazing, and radically limited. If your parents housed and fed you without doing too much damage, you are ahead of the game. Young adults will find many opportunities in life for relationships with older friends and mentors - none of them perfect, some of them perilous. At some point we have to figure out a way to extract value from the collective over the long term. Being too naive to realize how impossible that is, is a good thing.
At 35, I’ve been at a wrestling point. I started realizing reality vs fantasy since I was 30. I haven’t developed an adult identity as my classmates have. Step by step. As for the dream, there are three types of cats: mountain lion, kitten, panther. Maybe she cannot stop her fear of others abandoning her, but at the same time she judges other people on different levels and abandons them for not measuring up. Maybe she is abandoning the friends that she deems weak as the kitten. As she desires more sturdy animals to identify with. Projection of the shadow: that which we fear happening to ourselves, we are likely to do to others.
Big fan of your podcasts, but this one is extremely narrow and almost bordering on absurdity. Will email soon. Thank you for relevant insights in your other casts.
Interesting. I am, if there is such a thing, an opposite of a puella. I never got to choose my life I was forced into at 15. Now that I am older, I have chosen to try and choose. What is that called lol
So basically, have children or be a puer. Thats what the hosts are saying. Because you procreate does not make you an adult. Sorry. I’ve seen terrible crappy people that have kids, and worse.
I'm sure that's not the conclusion we reached. The antidote to puer/puella complex is to embrace work for its own sake and set aside the demand for things to be pleasurable or easy all the time. The maturational demands of parenting are only one example of demanding work that forces the parent to accept a more adult perspective.
@@thisjungianlife i agree with the point of work for its own sake and value, and while I’ll also agree it is more common for people to accept the responsibility of parenting, alot of people don’t accept that either. Hence deadbeat parents, adoption, people losing parenting rights due to crime etc. Its more complex than the explanations given here. Was that done for sake of time or simplicity?
@@RobertWilliams-xs8el Both, Robert. I agree that every issue we discuss is far more complicated than we can address. Our goal is to introduce a depth perspective and hope that the listener will feel inspired/empowered to pursue more resources and consultation than a podcast could offer.
@@thisjungianlife Interesting. I watched another video on youtube offering a simplified explanation of puer/puella, which led me to your video. I was listening at work so perhaps I misconstrued. I will go back and listen again. Merry Christmas!
Anyone who radically accepts "what is" is a good candidate for "enlightenment" in the Buddhist sense! After all, it's all there is anyway! You just have to be paying attention!
Is there no purple pill? Your description of the blue pill sounds like our consumer-oriented society that promises bliss, happiness, pleasure, and escape from reality by engaging in sports betting, or just watching sports, shopping, building bigger houses and driving fancy cars.
I’m only a bit over 25 minutes in and they mentioned puer already plenty of times, also the point I am listening to atm which is specifically about puer again with the gaming example. Actually, have a listen from 25:10 and you will hear it for yourself.
I love these podcasts,but I struggle with hosts criticising these Peter Pan people when they are charging them to supposedly heal them.I have no issue with the topic being discussed but don't critique your patients.
I wish they would also look into the relationship of childhood trauma, abusive household and parents in the role of creating these people as well. Sometimes the enmeshment happens as a result of trauma and there seems no way out for the child other then serve the abuser for the rest of your life, all this also as a result of learned helplessness more than the desire and fantasies
I'd have loved to hear more about the root causes. Especially the role of emotionally immature parents play.
The only role I can think of is that of initiation into pain. (I'm using the words from the video bc they came to mind).
Deborah, Lisa and Joseph, saving the world, one podcast at a time.
Joseph seems more understanding and insightful when talking about these issues. I get a real feeling of judgment from the other two. Sometimes people fail to launch because they don't have tools, information, or support, and the only adult role models they see are people who, for valid reasons, they don't want to emulate. Assuming they are stunted and lazy creatures who just don't want to do the work, is part of the reason they don't reach out for help and try to work through it. It's too shaming.
Yea I agree. I also got that vibe from another one of their episodes
Too shaming or too overwhelming without any tools? Or not enough curiosity to explore inner feelings of inadequacy and confusion. Psychology truly needs to be mandatory in all schools, at least beginning in Middle schools. Without exposure to psychology, young people will become more conflicted than ever. Without looking within, young people will be consumed by superficiality, unless they are able to find (or create) real love.
The only freedom from a meaningless life will be from having a specific interest and development of their quest to learn, based on whatever captivates their young, bright minds.
I read your comment before I really delved into the podcast, so I'll keep this in mind while listening. I agree that the why is not always what it might look like on the surface. VERY important for clinicians to keep in mind.
Childhood trauma, especially very early on, can cause this. Don't smoke, don't drink, don't do drugs and experiencing a little puer-puella can keep a person young. js
I don't know whether I fully qualify for this etiquette. I used to desire to be a full blown adult but I didn't realise I was brought up and surrounded by a bunch of very immature people and my idea of adulthood was very skewed or superficial. Eventually, having failed twice at creating a family or having a career I regressed to some sort of an infantile state like a snail who curled back up into its shell. I don't perceive this state as particularly fantastic or cool or anything like that even though it allows me to be creative and imaginative unlike most adults I know. What holds me in this state is not its fabulous appeal but visceral disgust and aversion towards the thing called ”adulthood”. It's like a dish that I was very eager to try. I did. It made me sick and now I just can't even look at it.
Growing takes time and desire. It sounds that you have underlying issues, from childhood that need to be examined. Also, did you experience a needed grievance? That alone, will send you back into Snail Mode. Yes, life is challenging!
Aren't they two sides of the same coin?
I'd challenge the idea of having attained "full blown adulthood" and then collapsing into an "infantile state" after some set backs .... By definition, for me anyway, adulthood is the capacity to overcome / work through set backs.
It's the child who collapses into incapacity when a failure arrives.
An adult sees that success can only be accompanied by failure.
He talks about cultural poison...
Forget to mentioned something along the lines of ' adjusting to a mentally ill society...'
Another interesting topic, is that of 'sacrifice'
To Sacrifice, is to birth action out of fear...
To act out of love, and reciprocity, aren't part of the incentives in current global culture ...
You haven’t reached full adulthood as you are convinced that you say you have. It’s the psyche’s way of playing mental gymnastics to justify things to avoid facing accountability.
I too am in this
Powerful. I needed this to wake up to myself. I self sabotage and stay trapped in my addictions that ruined my life force. I fear the responsibility of consistent adulthood. The every day of ordinary. So this video l will consistently listen too. Like having very wise parents l can go too and learn. How to be in reality of facts, and find my extraordinary in the ordinary day. Find my own wonders. Yes to my life. Thank you for this very clear language so we all can get it. Thus save ourselves.
Wow ❤❤❤
Yes, many people are trapped in their inner child, but honestly, is it their fault when they had an overcontrolling parent and shitty childhood? Even when they realize that life is not as they wanted and they have wishful thinking, are we going to judge them?
There are many people who have no good education, they have no brain cells or determination in the prefrontal cortex to get any good education and they struggle to get a decent job and fulfil their potential. It is sad as it is, but childhood trauma is no joke. I think this form of wishful thinking is coming from the same place as narcissism, even though this is more toxic for the individual himself than for others who come into contact with him. Religions, spirituality, the law of attraction are probably also coming from the same place.
If the individual perceives that they live life in a terribly wrong way and they feel no inner strength to make their life any better, the brain will probably try to create some form of mental homeostasis and will make people think that "maybe once" the luck will visit me, or I will win the scratch card, or "angel from heaven" will save me, or whatever. It is not a persons fault to have such thinking. Some people are really in such deep mud and they've missed 30 years of momentum. It is not easy to be very conscious of it, daily. Yes, some can be pushed heavily out of a comfort zone, and do something about it, but some can't even think about it for a minute, therefore there are many people who are alcoholics, porn addicts, drug addicts. To see reality as it is can be very painful for some. Someone who has a shitty CV in their 40's is not in a great life position also without a good education unless he enjoys mundane low paid jobs or has a very strong entrepreneurial spirit.
There are many people who just strive to live life in some basic way and thinking about it makes them feel deep pain.
I think many of those people (myself included) are suffering the effects of some sort of childhood emotional neglect. The book Running on Empty by Jonice Webb addresses a lot of issues like these (being stuck due to lack of momentum from earlier years) and reading it has turned me towards an unprecedented amount of inner empowerment and wisdom.
It's painful to think about, there's a lot of shame, but we have to do it, we owe it to ourselves
Very accurate. I am there at 45. Stunned.
48 and been doing the work for a few years. Im not into blaming anyone anymore, just focusing on taking the steps to make it better now. CPTSD, Anima integration, Shadow integration, meditation, bioenergetics and so on. Mind body and soul alignment. Toxic shame has imprisoned me long enough.
Thank u so much ! For this , the part Joseph brings up about not turning inward and following the flow of inner life , and instead doing a cost analysis with a degree , happened to me , and many others I know because of the culture we live in … I look back thinking man I was so entrenched and trapped so physically numb .. and also encased still in my inner child immobile against my parents demand .. unable to take responsibility for my needs , now at 31 it’s different … the values have shifted tremendously between generations , in much subtler ways then the overt extrovert 60s rebellion between generations .. now what I feel is happening is a inward rebellion .. why so many of us are stuck .. holding tension of opposites in our psyche sphere ..
4:24 collapse of the wave form
5:10 Rapunzel
25:45 the desire for initiation. Archetype energy.
28:00 possibly causes of stunted individuarion
I'm very new to this podcast, really enjoying and learning a lot. More importantly, I'm getting a lot of understanding about myself and that is true about this episode in particular. I believe this is about me and the thing that stopped me from developing is multi generational trauma and the archetype of death mother. The turn around came a couple of years ago, at age 46 and was a spiritual awakening. There is still a whole lot of work to be done, but I just know I'm finally coming alive. Thank you for your help. Many years ago someone told me, "when the student is ready, the teacher will arrive" and that certaintly is true in my own experience. Life unfolds in the timeframe of the divine/God/psyche not mine or anyone elses.
This was so beautifully reasoned. I think this is an important theory to keep in mind when considering the complexity of “ personality disorders” as a result of developmental trauma and emeshment- something that also rings out to me when thinking about the Rapunzel myth- the Mother/Witch figure actively manipulated Rapunzel to be her companion and made the outside world scary... the call from the Prince was indeed a call to Life and all the inevitable suffering that comes with it... How does one come to the realization that this is the only path to living?
I think this Jungian theory has much to offer modern psychiatry/psychology...
My own subconscious brings forth these images/ stories nudging me to go into the fray... but the dysfunctional dependency on my Mother and my own deep discomfort with Death and the sands of time reliving possibilities is truly excruciating...
That was a great example with the deep ambivalence of Motherhood and the irreversible changes to the Self that comes with it... especially if you have unresolved Mother complexes within.
Thank you so much for this...
Your thoughts are well expressed; the Mother Complex is a bitch. I can relate to this curse. My relationship was complicated. Bottom line, it took me a lifetime to realize that mother did not Bond with me. This reality came to me in a lifelike dream, only months ago.
In adulthood, I unwound my parents relationship in order to find why their family of 4 children was dysfunctional.
My advice is to find a Jungian Analyst to help you;
I treated myself via isolation and self observation, plus dozens of TH-cam self help videos. I do believe that we, only, can heal ourselves - however, commiting to trained insight to guide us will save time, and allow for valuable and needed wisdom. Best Wishes to you, my younger friend.
@@kirstinstrand6292 Thank you so much for your response. My soul has been calling me to solitude to parse out my voice from the internalized Mother voice - from not just my Mother, but what was passed down psychically through the generations.
Again thank you and hope you and your family stay safe.
Holy schitt what dream!
More like a freaking nightmare. ... Dang.
That whole episode was excellent and thorough.
Thank you! - My 3 sibs.
I'm living the Puer Aeternus life, and will continue to do so very happily.
Yes, there is suffering related to this state of mind, but not more than to any other state of mind! To exist, means we have to suffer to a certain extent. The balance, cost and reward is up to each and everyone of us to find for ourselves. Actually, the suffering might be a lot less compared to the "adult-life" if the other aspects of the personality type / temperament naturally fits this way of living.
The negative focus and seeking out errors is a bit overfocused in the analyzis of the Puer -even sensing some kind of jealousy sometimes that some of us are brave enough to remain free and live free, even though you might read into it that this freedom-seeking itself eventually becomes a prison.
Someone needs to refresh the perspective on the puer aeternis and make a vid highlighting more of the upsides and what the benefits of accepting this archetype contains.
@@cosmofox Nope, just stating the fact that as long as you exist as a human being there will be a certain amount of suffering, regardless. If you can't agree with this basic truth there might be some serious suppression going on.
At some point, it gets old
Is it a full life for you? It's definitely not for me and I'm too afraid to evolve beyond it. I fell sad and very uncomfortable to be stuck in perpetual puella mode.
It think it would be interesting to hear about the pour and puella related to psychiatric diagnosis.
24:00 i don't agree, i think the true sadness lies in the life itself, which is so cruel and absurd that people chose to escape into dreams instead.
I’m half way through and fully relate. I’m 45 and as soon as I turned 40, something changed and I woke up from the illusion! It was all due to childhood trauma! Anyways, for last 5 years I’ve been trying to change the status quo in my life! Anyways, great topic and very reflective 🙏🏽 Thank you guys ❤️🤗
"What blocks them or what is the appeal of remaining like this both are good questions. For myself, the answer is, I didn't see anything else, didn't know better and I was afraid to assume any success for myself, I did it only when I played a role for someone else (mother, wife, the best employee) but inside I felt no fulfillment. After listening today, it all makes better sense, I got all kinds of explanations from therapy, but this video clarified stuff. Thank you!
27:00 thank you very much for your input here Joseph. I would be really curious to know what kind of archetypes you're talking about here, ones related to one's life path/trajectory etc. I'm more curious here because the archetypes I am familiar with--old man, trickster, fool, etc.-- don't really seem to be related to a personal life path/journey etc.
Thank you again for another fabulous podcast.
This hit me in the feels….
Initiation - that what makes an adult out of a child. What makes initiation attractive for a child? The offer of partaking in the deeper profundity of the adult world. In our kind of society initiation offers what? Partaking in consumerism? Partaking in the callousness of neo-liberalism?
This is such a rich, deep and wonderful podcast. I’m learning so much about myself. Thank you all very much.
Really loving these podcasts. I’ve been gradually going through them since I found this channel a month or so ago. You folks provide a seriously enlightening perspective on Jungian ideas.
It would be cool if you did another episode but with an actual puer.
I believe that I would qualify.
I have to tell you, besides the amazing content and wisdom being shared here, I find you three so easy to listen to and love the deliberate, respectful, easy way you converse ❤ Thank you for offering this channel!
Very helpful. I’ve just started analysis and I think I am slowly being confronted with this archetype in me. However, I still don’t see the case being made for “growing up”. There’s a lot of emphasis on sacrifice and going through the hardships of adulthood. Why would one want to willingly choose to endure the hardships of adulthood? As cryptic as it may sound, death sounds like a better choice.
Thank you so much for this. It really helps me
Really enjoyed this guys❤ - being a Puer myself it really helped (male 50yrs).
Jungian analysis could really use a dose of the sociological perspective. There are social and economic reasons people are delaying life later these days and many women feel it impractical to have children.
no jung by a jungian analyst mary luis von franz ,claims that this is because of overprotective mothers ,this podcast didnt touched on it idky but read the problem with puer aeternus to know more
Trying to treat after the fact is extremely difficult. You can't unspoil something spoiled. Usually, it's the parent providing too much comfort which limits teen/pre teens from developing coping mechanisms to handle difficult choices situations. Send your kids to Boy/cub scouts, varsity sports, camp etc. These activities require making tough choices that can lead to the loss of a game, letting down team members etc all without the parents being around at all. These activities develop skills for children to be comfortable with being uncomfortable which most puer/puellas lack.
I agree! Boy Scouts was pivotal for me as well ~ Joseph.
The dream - she has the desire for life but she refuses transformation but through some luck has dodged being poisoned by her desires (still optimistic). She is trying to protect her inner child, but realizes she is strong enough to to take the leap.
What an episode!
Wow. What an episode. You guys knocked it out of the park. Again. Proud to be your patreon. When you read the todays dream.. The last line there.. "you dont have to be afraid for me" it touched my heart. Dont know how or why. Really cool anyway. 👍
Thanks for your support Andreas.
I'm curious how this applies to people who have been in toxic relationships for a substantial amount of time. Personally speaking, I was with someone who I felt like a mother to (narc/puer partner). Now that I have my freedom, I'm reluctant to recommit to someone for fear of being trapped in another toxic relationship. I am now exploring things that I didn't have the time or energy for, which may seem like a puella phase - but I do desire to have a long term partner once I have my feet under me again and have worked through some of the issues I have from my past relationship. I'm just curious about your feedback on this.
please make more episodes on this topic
I'd like to hear some discussion around the "Puer/Puella" grown old. The crux between not wanting to grow up yet not wanting to become dependent upon others for activities of daily living -- like a child!
That'd be interesting. After severe narcissistic abuses, by my white nationalist bros, I've aged considerably. Wrestling with that now requiring more help, at 71.
My puella late sister was eating disorderd+ and DPD. Failed to launch, just like the boys.
Not that I did entirely. But, I was always in the game.
Fascinating and timely
I love your discussions
45:54 quote from Marie Louise Von Franz
That touched a place deep inside. Thank you.
It is hard to admit. I guess I was a puer up until my 30s. The pressure of taking care of a mentally ill family member along with the pressure of keeping a job at all costs got me out of my puer state. I am scarred. I know that. But I think I have a better handle on my life now. It is too bad that it took over 20 years to reach thst transformation.
That is some dream!
Actually it was almost frightening; a very complex dream that I would not attempt analyzing unless knowing her history, which most likely has much difficulty, if not trauma in it. Such a dream will likely become clearer with time, as she continues to live her life. I feel for her.
I made great effort to keep my inner child, but I still want to “grow up” to connect with others and live a real life. I desire a life of creativity and connection.
I think the kittens represent the false fears and the potentiality for her to see a different perspective of her anxious thoughts pursuing her
Thank you for sharing
What would be the difference between a sort of gypsy type archetype and a puella /pur … like both sort of have a wandering spirit .. what maturates the gypsy that the puella / pur doesn’t have ?
I'm listening to this while playing 7 Days to Die. On the other hand, I'm within striking distance of completing a master's degree in mental health counseling. Online gaming is such a bogeymen to people who've never played, it's reminiscent of the satanic panic of the 80's.
I think many people in their 30s right now are trapped in this, to some degree, against our own wills due to difficulty with things like finding a stable career, even if we know what we want to do and are qualified for it.
Exactly. You can reduce everything to an individual resistance to grow up. Many women are choosing not to have children because they either can’t afford it or can’t balance it with their career life...or just don’t want to. I’ve heard to many Jungians claim that women who don’t seek motherhood are “clinging to Aphrodite.”
@@spectralv709 I do know a lot of people who actively resist growing up because they don't want to feel limited or challenge their comfort, but then there are people like myself and my friends who know what we want in life but keep encountering these barriers that lock us in the ante-room. It is a societal problem that becomes an individual problem when the individual lies down and accepts their fate of being trapped there rather than rising up against it.
I think the women who opt out of motherhood *specifically* because of how it'll affect their appearance are clinging to Aphrodite (though, ultimately, that is their business), but for many of us it is because we wish to realize our potential elsewhere, don't want a child we can't adequately care for, have reproductive/skeletal/other health issues that could make childbearing much more than we bargained for (or, in my case, all of the above). These analysts thankfully have nuanced views, I had the good luck of receiving services from one of them when I was younger and I know at least she is very much for women self-actualizing in a way that suits them whether that is motherhood, something else, or a combination. I think at the end of the day, what's important is that we at least choose a path to growth rather than submitting to stagnation, and if society does not provide us that path we should try and carve it out ourselves.
At one point as they were listing barriers to growing up and launching, I thought "what about the rising cost of living?"
Excellent podcast. Thank you
Peter pan is happy without having to achieve anything at all just as any child or animal. It is the senex that cannot be happy without the freedom of the child.
Perhaps so. But the senex is sustained by depth of meaning.
very interesting, not everything in black or white, to what degree do outside forces play on the need to leave one's childhood and find their true self?
As I get older I tend to realize that people are both amazing, and radically limited. If your parents housed and fed you without doing too much damage, you are ahead of the game. Young adults will find many opportunities in life for relationships with older friends and mentors - none of them perfect, some of them perilous. At some point we have to figure out a way to extract value from the collective over the long term. Being too naive to realize how impossible that is, is a good thing.
Love it.
How does being down on earth relate to the golden world?
5:21
(Personal bookmark)
That was some dream.
talk more about this tiopic
At 35, I’ve been at a wrestling point. I started realizing reality vs fantasy since I was 30. I haven’t developed an adult identity as my classmates have. Step by step.
As for the dream, there are three types of cats: mountain lion, kitten, panther. Maybe she cannot stop her fear of others abandoning her, but at the same time she judges other people on different levels and abandons them for not measuring up. Maybe she is abandoning the friends that she deems weak as the kitten. As she desires more sturdy animals to identify with. Projection of the shadow: that which we fear happening to ourselves, we are likely to do to others.
Is this the Peter Pan scenario? Cinderella Fantasy for young girls?
Big fan of your podcasts, but this one is extremely narrow and almost bordering on absurdity. Will email soon. Thank you for relevant insights in your other casts.
It actually hits really close to home for me. I am that frozen puella dealing with so much arrested development and I'm too scared to become more
Interesting. I am, if there is such a thing, an opposite of a puella. I never got to choose my life I was forced into at 15. Now that I am older, I have chosen to try and choose.
What is that called lol
8:00
38:30
26:00
Deep....
"Peter Pan" -- when you describe it that way, I can identify! Does it have to be "either-or?" Sadly, I suspect "yes."
So basically, have children or be a puer. Thats what the hosts are saying. Because you procreate does not make you an adult. Sorry. I’ve seen terrible crappy people that have kids, and worse.
I'm sure that's not the conclusion we reached. The antidote to puer/puella complex is to embrace work for its own sake and set aside the demand for things to be pleasurable or easy all the time. The maturational demands of parenting are only one example of demanding work that forces the parent to accept a more adult perspective.
@@thisjungianlife i agree with the point of work for its own sake and value, and while I’ll also agree it is more common for people to accept the responsibility of parenting, alot of people don’t accept that either. Hence deadbeat parents, adoption, people losing parenting rights due to crime etc. Its more complex than the explanations given here. Was that done for sake of time or simplicity?
@@RobertWilliams-xs8el Both, Robert. I agree that every issue we discuss is far more complicated than we can address. Our goal is to introduce a depth perspective and hope that the listener will feel inspired/empowered to pursue more resources and consultation than a podcast could offer.
@@thisjungianlife Interesting. I watched another video on youtube offering a simplified explanation of puer/puella, which led me to your video. I was listening at work so perhaps I misconstrued. I will go back and listen again. Merry Christmas!
Anyone who radically accepts "what is" is a good candidate for "enlightenment" in the Buddhist sense! After all, it's all there is anyway! You just have to be paying attention!
Is there no purple pill? Your description of the blue pill sounds like our consumer-oriented society that promises bliss, happiness, pleasure, and escape from reality by engaging in sports betting, or just watching sports, shopping, building bigger houses and driving fancy cars.
Why there is nothing on Puer Aeternus? Or is this some feminist only channel?
?????
@@theuday99 He's triggered
Study Carl Jung.
I’m only a bit over 25 minutes in and they mentioned puer already plenty of times, also the point I am listening to atm which is specifically about puer again with the gaming example. Actually, have a listen from 25:10 and you will hear it for yourself.
Frida Kahlo could never successful have kids, and she's far more amazing than most women I know.
Sorry.
You do you girl but Frida gave up rest of the potentials for painting,In that sense she gave up her inner child
i hate it
I love these podcasts,but I struggle with hosts criticising these Peter Pan people when they are charging them to supposedly heal them.I have no issue with the topic being discussed but don't critique your patients.