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"Vecna pulls out an ancient Amulet of Summon Deus Maximus." _pulls out a sledgehammer from under the table. Smashes your figurines._ *NEVER* fuck with the DM! D:
Opinion time: It's a bit weak. I'm running Vecna at 5 (maybe 6-7 depending on circumstances) level 10 adventurers, and I think they might steam roll him :/
One thing, the advantage on samurai from Xanathar is only for melee Attacks. Sorry, but I had to, laterly I have been possesed by the Ghost of a rulelawyer. I now Remember more rules while playing, but Always feel the Need to "actually..." And correct Someone.
Don't forget that the DM will be designing the lair and that statblock is just a guideline... imagine if he also had Wizard_Necromancer levels and items as well like the amulet of ultimate evil
Well cheesing used to be the name of those strategies but it was never taken seriously, friendship is not until you see it in action and a few doofus kids kill a god with it.
I think wotc is just releasing this just to look for the ways this vecna is killable and then release post ascension vecna with the obvious weaknesses removed plus more to counter all the entries made to kill pre ascension vecna.
@@ColgateMcajax post-Ascension vecna would likely require beyond level 20 ruling for leveling beyond just the boons that are given by wotc. If he was below CR 35 to 40 I would be brutally disappointed. Also it'd be fun if they also included a harder mode for post Ascension with him reunited with his eye and hand.
@@ColgateMcajax post ascension Vecna will not be getting released almost assuredly, as far as I’m aware 5e has had a policy of not releasing stat blocks for gods. D&D learned it’s lesson from AD&Ds Dieties and Demigods when people started killing all the gods within it and getting insane god-level artifacts. This kinda pissed off Gygax and now we have Tomb of Horrors as a result.
@@NecrelKitsune Late, but there's actually a Vecna statblock out there post-ascension in the homebrew book Ulraunt's Guide to the Planes: Shadowfell. In it, his base is that he can multi-cast two spells per turn (at will up to 4th level spells). He has an innate vulnerability to damage from the Sword of Kas, but it explicitly says in the statblock that if he's reunited with the eye and hand? He loses his vulnerability and can now multicast *three* spells a turn and gains an additional Legendary Action, bumping him up from 5 to 6.
Wanna know what's truly insane? This is literally "You Fools! This isn't even my final form!" Vecna. Archlich Vecna was the state he was in before he achieved godhood and later an even greater divine rank. Vecna at his peak is infinitely stronger than what wizards gave us. Wizards themselves confirmed that this is Vecna before achieving a Divine Rank, and if you look closely his CR is the same as Demogorgon, Orcus, and Zariel. So before peaking, he rivaled the Prince of Demons in Power as well as a Fallen Solar now Archduchess of the Baator. How's that for scary?
Just Pointing out orkus can literally make him as a servent…… I find it amusing a cr 26 encounter can have the ability to summon a cr 26 encounter as one it’s actions.
@@patrickmcathey7081 if you take it literally, yes. Lore wise, I don't believe Orcus has enough power to control Vecna anymore by this point. But yeah it is funny thought.
Also, they give the DMs the option to boost up the fight by giving him the Book of Vile Darkness. Strategic selection below: Select the Major Beneficial Property for 'immunity to Blinded, Deadened, Petrified, and Stunned conditions', and now his Truesight is not inhibited by Heavily Obscured effects and he can 'see' for his counterspell. Take 3 Minor Benefical Properties of DMG Resistance for Magical Piercing, Magical Bludgeoning, and Fire. This protects against ranged weapon users, fire is very common and spells tend to use DEX saves Vecna lacks, and it should help with the chance a Meteor Storm hits him in a blitz attack. 3 Minor Detrimental properties can be 'Blinded when separated from book by 10 ft', 'Deafened when separated from book by 10 ft', and 'destroy Holy Water within 10 ft'. The Major Benefit negates the first two, since you are still attuned even with distance. The third is just a benefit for undead. For the Major Detrimental Properties, take the 'rotting flesh' and 'kill a creature of your alignment before attunement'. His flesh is already rotted, and killing an evil subordinate who failed him is nothing new. Now he's buffed up significantly just from the random (or DM decided) properties, along with the other defined properties.
Yeah, his low HP and lack of legendary actions really makes cheese possible, but to be fair, at this point of his career he's just a really strong spell caster. Sounds like 3 archers with high initiatives just ends the fight too.
I would argue that no party should reasonably be in a position where they could cheese him via range. On top of the fact that you’ll probably also be dealing with an army of undead plus several lieutenants at the same time.
@@spartaneternal8423 Well guess what. The level 20 Adventure has you fight him alone in an enclosed room and he can actually get 1 rounded by some unoptimal arcane archers with no magic items. GG
@@RisenRen A level 20 one shot isn’t designed to reflect Vecna’s full capabilities as a villain? Call me surprised. I’m not saying this statblock can’t be cheesed. I’m saying that this cheese would have no impact on Vecna played to his full ability in an actual campaign.
@@Zulk_RS nah, abjuration mage or glibbed bard with counter spell is the strongest anti mage. A bard with glibness on can guarantee counter spell a 9th level spell with no roll necessary , using a 3rd level spell slot
After the beholder episode and this... God, these are so good! The "strength/weaknesses, into beat the bad guy, into cheese him, into secretly a guide for sadistic DMs" HAS to become a series!
I've said this in Treantmonk's video on Vecna: Vecna being a "Time Wizard" should automatically win initiative. He can also cast Fly at will so he should be flying before the start of the battle. In addition to having Shield available, I would also change Invisibility to Greater Invisibility. I think those were mistakes made by WotC. Afterthought is for stabbing the spell casters. +13 to hit. 20 Con save. Until the individual succeeds on the save, they can not regain hit points.
Wait, where do you get the Time Wizard Vecna thing from? 'cus if so I might have found a nice tie-in for my Chronurgy Wizard player in a world where time travel is quite literally supossed to be even out of the reach of Gods xD
Remember this is nerfed Vecna for your standard dnd party. This is Vecna on his day off. Optimized Vecna would be nigh unbeatable. Although I agree with all your points.
@@ivodijkman137 Its in the lore of the Vecna Dossier, this Vecna statblock isn't even Vecna at his full power (He takes this form to torment his enemies, if he actually got serious you wouldn't be fighting this statblock)
@@a0point0of0view1 Its in the lore of the Vecna Dossier, he is regarded as a powerful time wizard (In fact, the stat block they give him is pre-ascension. And its specifically called out that this is pre-ascension vecna, and it can exist because of Vecna's mastery over time magic.
Maybe, as a bonus action, Vecna can pull out the Book of Vile Darkness he has in his person, gaining additional spells like AOEs, as well as turn his actions (outside of spellcasting) into legendary actions. But other than that, as a DM planning on having Vecna in a campaign, adding shield and subtle spell is an awesome idea to prevent cheese. You sir, just got a sub!
When I first saw the stat block, my very first thought was "That's a lot of Necrotic Damage. Hey. Aren't higher level Undead Warlocks just immune to being Frightened and Necrotic Damage? Go Pact of the Blade, grab Improved Pact Weapon for a Longbow, and just fire away at 90ft away and he just cannot hurt you."
@@sidecharacter7165 the stat block doesn’t account for any items outside of Afterthought (his dagger). The adventure they released recommends letting him use the Book of Vile Darkness he has embedded in his chest, or even giving him his Hand and/or Eye. Nerd Immersion gave him a +4 to his INT from the Book of Vile Darkness (+2 from it’s own effect and +2 from the “Major Benefit”), which upped all his DCs by 2
How can this be? Reddit has decided that fighters are worthless at tier 4 gameplay (except for the fact that all tier 4 bosses have LRs and basically teabag spellcasters but martials can throw out 1 and a half disintegrates on an average turn in terms of damage)
Vecna: Has a head Doesn't have legendary actions Isn't immune to Magical slashing (though the nonmagical immunity could be interpreted as a block here from how it's worded) Is medium One Vorpal Crit, depending on ruling, could do the trick outright
What do y'all think of Vecna? I talk about it more in the bonus video, but I really like what they've done with this stat block! Feels like no matter what it's going to be a good fight, unlike other bosses where they either kill the party instantly or are a total pushover. #TarrasqueProblems
Feels weak as hell tbh :( AC is tiny, HP is a joke. 2 Arcane archers with absolutely 0 gear can 1 round him before he even goes... His HP needs to be tripled and he needs legendary actions.
Unfortunately, I think this statblock is a pushover for a level 15 party let alone a level 20 one. He's a legendary evil archlich with higher Wisdom than Intelligence, No 9th level spells, and No legendary actions. What's keeping a fighter from casting "stab" and killing this man in a round or two. He does have escape spells...but he's an Archlich. Why should he need to use them? Did he get this far by running from every fight he found himself in? Kind of ruins the whole evil fantasy of being an "Archlich." I *do* love his Dread Counterspell and Bonus Action Teleport, though.
For your cheese strat make sure to specify that you make the forcecage with bars not a solid wall. While it is invisible you cant target a location that has the path from you to it obstructed, hence forcecage can work with bars but wall of force never will. I think noting his sight as a limiting factor is important, but truly his main weakness is 18 ac and 250 ish hp for a cr 26 monster. The 80hp heal is nice, but its once per round at best. Without legendary actions hes pretty pants. Also people are saying his spell list is great, but it's really not. He has a bunch of noob trap spells, non upcastable lightning bolts aren't going to be useful at this level. Twice a day regular invisibility is bad. Why does he have fly as a concentration spell that takes his one action when most monsters of that level just have a fly speed? Why is his only useful concentration spell dominate monster which is once per day? why is his plane shift once per day and only on himself? I think his only useful spell is at will animate dead, which implies he should have an near endless number of minions with him at all times. But even though he has that apparently the adventure lists him as being alone in a small chamber, meaning to can't make use of his mobility and stay at range well and loses the one good thing he can do. Hes supposed to be one of the greatest spellcasters ever, but he's just not. Any high level wizard can do what he does but better and that's sad. Even in his best case scenario vecna needs major modifications to be challenging to a party of adventurers at a level that he's supposed to challenge them. The fact he has bad initiative and no legendary actions plus the low tank stats makes it very likely he won't do anything at all before dying, making him very anticlimactic.
Weaksauce. Way too few hit points and having no legendary actions means he's likely to die before he can act against some decent initiative rolls. :( I'd deffinitely buff him, a lot. Max hit points, and legendary action and lair actions. Then maybe he'll get to act and live past turn 1. 😉
I think the worst part, is that you’re supposed to fight him in an enclosed room, with no minions to help him. Unless you just decide to escape and fight ok better terms, the teleport is almost useless. That enclosed space is also part of his lair too, so he does *want* to fight there. Honestly, Treatmonk’s fix of making Vecna immune to B, S, or P unless from an artifact, would do a decent trick.
A high level rogue with a Druid in their party can definitely sneak up on him, with the rogues +17 to stealth, and then a pass without trace spell for a +10 to stealth, the rogue will easily be able to sneak up on Vecna.
Your high-level rogue has reliable talent, so its stealth floor is already 27 without PWT. A ranger can also do your combo solo (Canny for stealth expertise, already has PWT).
My home additions to this stat block include everything one gains from using the Eye and Hand of Vecna that isn't already included (x-ray vision, 20 STR, +2d8 cold damage to melee, extra spells and charges for them ((other than finger of death, Rotten Fate is already a better version)), immune to surprise, regeneration 1d10 hp per round while not unconscious, turn-your-bones-to-jelly-Touch, and 1/month casting of Wish) as well as Turn Resistance (or honestly even immunity) like regular liches that Vecna would logically also possess. Also a 60 ft fly speed built in so he doesn't have to waste his concentration on Fly, since he can already cast it at will.
Something overlooked here is that Vecna is considered a god, and could easily just chill out in an anti magic field and still cast his spells through it no problem, thus being immune to all magics you try to toss at him. Edit: I was unaware that the stat block given was before his assent into godhood, so unfortunately he’s gonna still be gimped by Antimagic
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 read the spell anti-magic field, namely: “Spells and other magical Effects, except those created by an artifact or a deity, are suppressed in the Sphere and can't protrude into it.”
I rule true sight to be quite unstoppable. For my setting it can only be stopped by anti divination, anti magic, or lead. I think that's reasonable for being called TRUEsight
agree and disagree. For me the creature still has to be able to see, so blindness effects can shut down. at the same time i do think it should bypass things that obscure vision, but not through objects. otherwise a party casting true sight now has xray vision though all objects that are not lead. but I can see why you want to buff it, creatures that rely on it are cheesable if you know the weaknesses. damned if you do, damned if you don;t
When I use true sight it's not by a basic person casting a spell or through an item. I think of extra planar beings who have gone past eyes and stuff. But I can agree that the more mild versions of true sight can't see through solid walls. And I'll agree that blinding a person might stop their true sight depending on how they are blinded
Vecna and the various parts of Vecna have been around for LONG LONG time - since 1976 in Eldritch Wizardry. I remember player characters talking about getting the hand or the eye of Vecna and me just thinking, "hmmm - our future does not bode well". These over powered but cursed items would eventually destroy the party from within and lead to an unstoppable TPK when we actually encountered Vecna. I'm talking utter and humiliating devastation without a glimpse of hope. My thieves would open a chest to reveal a moldy hand or petrified eye and simply turn to the party and answer, "Empty, nothing to see here". DMs would catch on to my tricks and started having the ring of Vecna or the amulet of Vecna. If pressed about it, I'd reveal a pouch of gold that nobody knew about just so that their natural inclinations about my natural inclinations to steal party treasure seemed to pay off. Of course I stole party treasure, I'm a thief, but I'm not a stupid thief... I'm not doing anything with Vecna. Being a sneaky thief generally made me sole survivor in most TPKs. Then it became my job to drag their dead bodies back to town and cough up my "hard earned" gold to raise the lot from the dead. Enjoy your Vecna encounters - TPKs for everybody.
That Vecna is the statblock before his ascension to Godhood, that's why it's beatable. Well, technically in 3.5 there was a statblock for Vecna and many other gods, but they where absolutely insane, much much more than this Vecna and you needed to be a god yourself to kill one.
@@MeshifuariThe Trove used to be a great website where you could find PDFs of old D&D books. It's been taken down now but you can still find a lot of its stuff on the way back machine.
It's worth noting in regards to Vecna Vs Orcus that Orcus, as written, has the ability to summon a Vecna to fight for him, in addition to a second basic lich and demilich all at once
Might I suggest the other half of a wombo combo with Force Cage... At 6 levels of exhaustion, the creature dies. Sickening Radiance XGE p164 4th-level evocation Casting Time: 1 action Range: 120 feet Components: V, S Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes Dim, greenish light spreads within a 30-foot-radius sphere centered on a point you choose within range. The light spreads around corners, and it lasts until the spell ends. When a creature moves into the spell's area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, and it suffers one level of exhaustion and emits a dim, greenish light in a 5-foot radius. This light makes it impossible for the creature to benefit from being invisible. The light and any levels of exhaustion caused by this spell go away when the spell ends.
Me and 3 other players took part in the level 20 oneshot that was put out with the Vecna stat block. For DMs worried about cheesy strats like the ones in this video, just make sure your players aren't planning to meta game. Most of our players were short notice, and the ones that weren't intentionally didn't look at the stat block. One of our characters was killed, the rest of us were on middling to low HP. Obviously be wary of your players, but even at level 20, you absolutely have a chance to give them hell
Isn't Vecna the god of magic? How does he not have access to all spells like a LVL 50 wizard or something? Even his avatars should at least have spell slots like a LVL 30 wizard and have all spells prepared at all times.
Treantmonk Temple dropped Vecna in one round with a pair of level 20 human Arcane Archers with no magical items. The only provision is that everyone rolls a 10 on their initiative checks. The AA's beat Vecna's initiative, and stay at range. Vecna's reactions are useless as no spells, no one in melee range. Vecna's effed.
I don't think the dagger is useless, each strike forces a high con saving throw and apon a fail the target Cannot heal until a successful re-save but this effect happens every successful hit with the dagger, rendering healing useless
We ran a one shot combat with this, archery itself wasn't so great because he could teleport to cover, however the archer had a bow of certain death so he couldn't regain health.
Interesting point of order. A tricky DM might be able to give Vecna some of the powers that his eye and hand give him. Since those were cut off of him when he was in this state. So it would make sense that he can actually pull those powers out
Thank you for the video especially the how to win. For my campaign I was going to run Vecna as the final boss and with this video I know how to modify him to fix those mistakes.
Heavy makes actually sense, it's just badly named. It should be called unwieldy. Just imagine a three to five year old wielding a polearm or trying to draw a long bow to full length. Just rename short and long bow into hunting and war bow, as there are powerfull composite bows and weak longbows.
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 Their is a side note that says "If you wanted to add more challenge, consider giving him the book of Vile Darkness" which to me is reasonable, the thing that made this Vecna Statblock unusual was the fact that they didn't give him his lair actions (You'd most likely be facing Vecna in his Lair, which gives him lair actions)
@@HallowedKeeper_ they dont give lair actions in the stat block but in the adventure they give lair action if the dm wants to add them in for more of a challenge
@@kurtacus3581 It should be on the same page as his statblock, not in a single specific adventure. (Literally every other creature with Lair actions has it on their page)
@@HallowedKeeper_ it should. But i was just informing you that there is lair actions. You just have to look at the adventure that is included with the vecna statblock
truesight means he can see out of the force cage , so he could bonus action teleport out of the cage, though the fighter method may work, you still would have to beat him in initiative.
he can't see through the fog with truesight through, so if its heavily obscured area then he couldnt see passed the cage. The cage is to keep him from moving regularly
I think it’s really cool that you offer the patreon video for free for those who can’t afford it. I also think the discord dm is a good way of going about it.
Of course this is all phrased as if Vecna is just in a room by himself and the group is just waltzing in on him fresh and unexpected. In which case, wtf is the dm doing. This is not a situation someone like Vecna would ever find themselves in.
Another thing is that Vecna can also cast Animate Dead as an action at will. So depending on the initiative order before getting by the players, he can summon some zombies or skeletons to try and break their concentration for him or keep them busy
You know I'd love to see a boss that spawns in numbers equivalent to who's fighting it and each one is a perfect clone of the each party member all the way down to their stats and items they are carrying on hand.
So unless your DM coordinates them worse than you do, you have a 50% chance of a TPK? Seems a little high for me. Could be cool if you came up with a good way of nerfing them slightly, e.g. they have no proficiency bonus for the first round or two as they get used to their new forms
Any DM that leaves Vecna in an open room with no assistance is probably running the encounter wrong. The silenced, obscured forcecage is all fine and dandy until his magic helpers remove it for him. Aha!
You can also: 2 level 17 scribes wizard and tempest cleric with the metamagic adept: subtle spell and the elemental adept: lightning feats. Both subtle spell meteor swarm and change the damage type to lightning and use the channel divinity to deal max damage. This is 240 damage per caster, ignores resistance and can't be counterspelled
We just fought Vecna in my weekly game. It wasn't actually Vecna, just the last form of the big bad was the Vecna Stat block. There was also some adds and lair actions, and our lvl 20 party was pretty tapped out. We managed to beat him one round. My paladin got to act first after the enemy transformed into this Vecna statblock and I had Holy Weapon up. I was completely out of spells, and our DM made it sound like the big bad was going to try and flee or teleport away once he could. In fact his previous form could teleport as a legendary action as well. So I popped the Holy Weapons ending ability to try and blind him and he failed. Once blinded he could use almost none of his abilities. No teleport, no healing, no counterspelling. And it was very simple for 5 level 20 characters to deal the roughly 300 hp to kill him.
So having tried out a series of Vecna battles on Enworld, one thing we learned about the Afterthought Dagger. Vecna can Rotten Fate someone down to 0, move into melee, and double crit them with the dagger....instantly killing them. It is a very nasty way to truly finish a PC.
um you cant hurt him now that he is in the cage "A prison in the shape of a box can be up to 10 feet on a side, creating a solid barrier that prevents any matter from passing through it and blocking any Spells cast into or out of the area." so yay Vecna is trapped but cant be hurt
oh man that cheese stratagem is awsome!!! the DM will not allow to wish stop vecna from revenge..... if you are a low lived race your character will suffer, (or maybe thier cult will resurrected faster just for fun)
This video is amusing since at the last game I was in, our party dwarf rogue decided to literally piss on an effigy of Vecna…the DM left us with a cliffhanger (to be resolved this weekend) of something coming at the party.
You can also beat vecna as a level 1 sorcerer all you need is a bag of holding and the spell catapult now you can cast catapult 2 before a long rest now cast catapult on the nearest pebble, preferably a 1 pound pebble. Repeat this until you have 500 1 pound pebbles in the bag of holding. Once you reach vecna just turn the bag of holding inside out pointing the bag towards vecna. Now he must roll 500 dc 12 dex saves, for each save he fails he must tak 3d8 damage, for each he succeeds he takes half that damage. And that’s how you beat vecna at level 1
I had an idea for this, but then I saw your strat, and wow. You really did do Vecna dirty. Antimagic Field, as great as it is, cannot beat a forcecaged Vecna who is unable to do basically anything. I'll see if I can come up with something cheesier in the meanwhile though! I just found one, and ooh boy...same Setup you have, silence, and forcecage. But, have the Cleric outside of the room casting the Forbiddance spell. Forbiddance prevents ALL planar travel, meaning spells such as Dimension Door, Plane Shift, and Vecna's teleport simply doesn't work. The reason why you silence him anyway is because he could still dispel the forbiddance spell. Once Vecna is within the Force Cage, simply wait for the spell to complete and Vecna is simply doomed. No teleport, unable to dispel, and cannot move. Finally, to really screw over Vecna, cast Antimagic Field on yourself and leave the room. Vecna will be completely unable to damage you, or end your concentration because the Antimagic Field doesn't affect concentration. Once you've left, step back in every once in a while to re-cast Silence until he dies a very humiliating death.
Don't think this will work RAW, unfortunately. Forbiddance only prevents teleporting INTO the affected area (For the Duration, Creatures can't Teleport INTO the area or use Portals, such as those created by the gate spell, to enter the area. The spell proofs the area against planar Travel, and therefore prevents Creatures from ACCESSING the area by way of the Astral Plane, Ethereal Plane, Feywild, Shadowfell, or the Plane Shift spell.); nothing is said about teleporting WITHIN or AWAY from it, so Plane Shifting out is still an option. Not to mention the 10 minute cast time. Also, if your DM would allow it to prevent teleporting, it would affect your group as well. I would also note that Demension Door and Vecna's reactions/bonus action are not planar travel, and RAW would also not be affected by Forbiddance.
@@nickschile4807 Hmm...seems I misread the spell a bit. Man, magic in DND is complex...Ethereal Travel, Planar Travel, and Teleportation are all completely different things.
@@nickschile4807 My only other idea for cheese is to somehow get a giant barbarian to cram Vecna into a tub of holy water, put a lid on it, put padlocks on the lid, then cast Antimagic field. He can't teleport and must slowly drown in Holy Water.
brutal! but what would be even more humiliating is finding a way to trap Vecna in an amulet, kind of a genie in a lamp deal only there's no way for him to escape unless someone/thing destroys the amulet
"He's got a Passive Perception of 25! *So you aren't sneaking up on him."* The average level 20 Rogue: *casually rolls a minimum 27 Stealth check thanks to Reliable Talent and a +17 bonus to the roll from Expertise* The average level 20 Monk: *can spend 4 Ki points to turn invisible at will for up to 1 minute.* The average level 20 Bard: *can grant an additional d12 to a Stealth Check with Bardic Inspiration for up to 5 party members, on top of the bonuses they already get.* The average level 20 Druid or Ranger: *casually gives everyone in the party Pass Without Trace, giving an automatic +10 to all Stealth checks* The average level 20 Artificer, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Ranger, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard: *casually has access to Enhance Ability, Cat's Grace, giving the least stealthy party member advantage on Dexterity Saving Throws, and can even use higher level spell slots to target multiple party members* The average level 20 Artificer, Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard: *casually has access to Invisibility, giving advantage on all Stealth Checks without needing another party to use Cat's Grace, and can use higher level slots to target the whole party* Yeah...25 Passive Perception is kinda weak for a Final Boss, bro.
0:33 a Rogue at level 13 with max Dexterity (as it should have by that point.) is guaranteed to sneak up on him. Also any one else that gains expertise through feats can sneak past Vecna at level 13 with a 55% success rate (Sneaky Goblin Monk is actually really quite fun). Other than that, yes.
This is amazing! Im actually planning on him being the BBEG of my homebrew, but when i looked at him I decided he was a bit weak. So im having it to where he has access to thr book of vile darkness. Im also allowing him to use his eye and hand, bc its vecna? Why not?
As the DM, may I suggest manually selecting the random properties for the book? The Minor Beneficial would be good to add some dmg resistances. Some of the Detrimentals can actually be boons for undead (like destroy Holy Water in 10 ft).
So you're telling me, to beat a non-divine Vecna, I just need to be a Gunslinger Fighter with 2 spellcaster friends? I need to find a Wizard and either a Bard or Sorcerer. Vecna owes me some money.
i was grossly underwhelmed by this stat block. a) a surprise round shuts him off. b) they made him undead, so many abilities just nerf him. BUT c) even though he is undead, it is specifically stated that he returns by his soul forming a new body, meaning one hit from a polymorph, and you can soul cage him, or better, Accursed Specter, pulling VECNA as a servant to you. BUT the wording says very specifically that after its service is up, it vanishes to the afterlife. so if you adhere strictly to the rules as written, you can exorcise Vecna.
Accursed Specter only works on Humanoids. However, you can use Command Undead on him (14th level necromancer). And there's actually a decent chance of it working. Nerf his INT using a variety of items and spells and he's screwed.
I'm not gonna lie, i liked it better when Vecna was untouchable. It would be fine if it was just an avatar, but if they're gonna stat out the actual god they need to do the other ones too. Just to be fair. Vecna was kind of one of my favorite characters for a long time and i've used him, in one form or another, in a lot of my games. You can always find his eye and hand in one of my games if you want to look.
I would like to point out that the stats for Vecna are for when he was an arch lich, not a god. God Vecna is still untouchable but these stats are for Vecna when he’s much more vulnerable.
@@no-oneimportant6861 Ah ok, that makes more sense. Still, i wouldn't mind another deities and demigods book. I just don't like when one of them is singled out.
As was covered in Treantmonk's video: The fighters don't even need to be optimized. All they need is high dex, and sharpshooter, and they're pretty much good to go. Not giving vecna any reaction defensive spells was probably an oversight.
'Passive perception of 25, so you aren't sneaking up on him' (looks at the multiple times I've pulled off 40+ stealth checks on a non-optimized-for-stealth rogue/warlock) I beg to differ... as long as he is using his passive and not checking for it.
The way I'm going to run it eventually is use this as phase 1 battle and use the guide to the shadowfell book off of dm guilds stat block in which is insane
Just wanted to say thank you, I was very concerned running him in my first Homebrew Campaign and one of my players is an absolute mega mind caster and I was very concerned with Vecna getting away to continue the story but it sounds like Subtle Spell will solve this concern.
The problem with these strategies is it assumes Vecna is alone. While his experience with Kas means he may not ever again want a retainer who approaches his level, he's gonna have a bunch of level 10-15 henchmen forming up his own "party/bodyguard" - say, 1-2 melee fighters, 1-2 archers, a rogue/assassin type, an evil cleric, 1-2 arcane spellcasters (his apprentices), plus Vecna's familiar and any constructs (e.g. Golems) he has made. Unless he's on some super secret errand where he doesn't want to "roll deep" with an entourage, you're very unlikely to encounter him alone .
Nice video and fair play for giving links away free on your Discord as well. Only comment I would say is I didn't like the split second text showing up at times in the background. Not sure what was going on there. Looking forward to more.
Love your videos. Been binging them lately. And given the humor on display, I think you will take this comment in the jovial spirit intended. Does your microphone have to buy you dinner to get that level of attention? =)
That's something I thought as well. Unless you can obscure vision in the Ethereal Plane, he should be able to use his teleport within the range of his Truesight. Though, the DM could rule that sight blocking effects also block sight in the Ethereal (think that's kind of bad since it would mean spells can affect the plane) or that seeing into the Ethereal doesn't provide equivalent sight into the Material. Then he'd be SOL.
Vecna is a legendary Necromancer. No DM in their right mind would leave Vecna without servants. Vecna won't be affected by it and casters would become effectively useless. This is an endgame boss, it is supposed to be extremely intelligent ruler of the dead. If players don't feel challanged by it, then you are using Vecna wrong. Heck I would personally add an Antimagic Field just to up the stakes.
Are we overthinking this? There's a weapon in canon which is perfect for the assassination of Vecna, and it's not even hard to get. In the "Frozen Woe" adventure inside The Explorer's Guide to Wildemount, there's a magic bioweapon called Frozen Woe. The PC's get multiple opportunities to get their hands on doses of these blue spores in clear glass vials. The adventure is for Level 1 characters. If a character fails a Con Save, that character becomes infected and slowly dies. No healing works to replenish lost hit points, and the text specifies that divine magic will not cure it. We are talking about a bio-weapon which was created by researchers who specifically wanted to wage war against the gods, and Vecna is one of the gods of Exandria, so this is kind of its intended purpose. It's a slow death, but it's quite ironclad of a death without the cure.
I just saw this video now so I know I'm late to the conversation but: Your supposed "cheesy strategy" is really a very normal and effective method for dealing with any spellcaster generally. Nullify their ability to cast, immobilise them, deal with them from a distance after removing their ability to be a threat to you. To me that's not cheesy, that's standard tactics.
If you have saved up a portent 1, 2 or 3 and cast true polymorph on vecna while he's in a silence spell you can turn him into a small statue by true polymorph. Maintain the concentration for the hour and you have a way of vecna not resurrecting. After this find some way to keep the statue safely stored away. Then as a dm, you can start a new campaign 2 millennia away, where most people have forgotton that it was an actual lich trapped in stone except for a niche cult, and have them attempt to get the statue and dispell the polymorph.
@@spartaneternal8423 vecna only acquired the ability to go through time after ascending as lesser deity. Deities are allowed little influence on the mortal world, and interacting with yourself from the past is one of the biggest paradoxes you can achieve. It's not weird to think that at least Vecna doesn't have the ability to 'just dispell it from the future', especially if his statue is being kept in something like a temple of a rival god.
@@Olav_Hansen It’s directly stated in the dossier that Vecna prior to his death by Kas had mastered time. As such he can appear on worlds in this form, his predeath form, where his eye and hand exist.
@@spartaneternal8423 I checked the forgotten realms wiki, he lost his physical body in the same battle where his eye and left hand were cut off by Kas. Over centuries of having a spiritual presence in the world, he at some point amassed enough followers to rise to demigod and ultimately deity. To further back the claim that this is pre Kas Vecna, if you look at the artwork he has 2 eyes and hands. Oh, and I quote the last 'flavour' line: This stat block depicts Vecna in his archlich form prior to Kas's betrayal.
Vecna can be super petty and stop you from stabilizing an ally with Spare The Dying with Dread Counterspell through Scrying or cancel a heal or revivify. If those spells don't work because of a roll, it could be because Vecna is in the background.
![A Crap Guide to D&D [5th Edition] - Artificer](/img/n.gif)
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"Vecna pulls out an ancient Amulet of Summon Deus Maximus."
_pulls out a sledgehammer from under the table. Smashes your figurines._
*NEVER* fuck with the DM! D:
Opinion time: It's a bit weak. I'm running Vecna at 5 (maybe 6-7 depending on circumstances) level 10 adventurers, and I think they might steam roll him :/
One thing, the advantage on samurai from Xanathar is only for melee Attacks.
Sorry, but I had to, laterly I have been possesed by the Ghost of a rulelawyer. I now Remember more rules while playing, but Always feel the Need to "actually..." And correct Someone.
I supported the campaign when it first launched. So glad I did. What an absolute boss of an adventure.
Don't forget that the DM will be designing the lair and that statblock is just a guideline... imagine if he also had Wizard_Necromancer levels and items as well like the amulet of ultimate evil
So Vecna can be beaten by two weaker spellcasters working together. The power of friendship really is no joke.
The power of META
The power of cheesing your opponent so badly that they'll be allergic to it for the rest of their existence xD
Well cheesing used to be the name of those strategies but it was never taken seriously, friendship is not until you see it in action and a few doofus kids kill a god with it.
Action economy is no joke
Spellcasters?? Two fighters with bows and Vecna doesn't even get a turn...
Vecna: "It's over Rogue! I have 25 passive perception!"
Rogue: "You underestimate my power!"
Vecna: "Don't try it!"
meanwhile my casual 40+ stealth rolls XD with pass without a trace and a -5 to perception due to Elven cloak
Yea the Rogue in my current party can't roll below a 30 for stealth and that's without pass without a trace. Vecna ain't seeing shit 😂
@@gabriel101x im also a gloomstalker sin champ multiclass so if I get a surprise off its HURTS 8 arrows at your face all SS all crits XD
@@sirken2 Gloomstalker sin champ? I’m guessing this means Gloomstalker/Champion Fighter multiclass… but what’s the sin part stand for?
@@Paradox-es3bl Assassin
One thing to note:
This is Vecna pre-Ascension.
I think wotc is just releasing this just to look for the ways this vecna is killable and then release post ascension vecna with the obvious weaknesses removed plus more to counter all the entries made to kill pre ascension vecna.
@@ColgateMcajax post-Ascension vecna would likely require beyond level 20 ruling for leveling beyond just the boons that are given by wotc.
If he was below CR 35 to 40 I would be brutally disappointed.
Also it'd be fun if they also included a harder mode for post Ascension with him reunited with his eye and hand.
@@ColgateMcajax post ascension Vecna will not be getting released almost assuredly, as far as I’m aware 5e has had a policy of not releasing stat blocks for gods. D&D learned it’s lesson from AD&Ds Dieties and Demigods when people started killing all the gods within it and getting insane god-level artifacts. This kinda pissed off Gygax and now we have Tomb of Horrors as a result.
💘
@@NecrelKitsune Late, but there's actually a Vecna statblock out there post-ascension in the homebrew book Ulraunt's Guide to the Planes: Shadowfell. In it, his base is that he can multi-cast two spells per turn (at will up to 4th level spells). He has an innate vulnerability to damage from the Sword of Kas, but it explicitly says in the statblock that if he's reunited with the eye and hand? He loses his vulnerability and can now multicast *three* spells a turn and gains an additional Legendary Action, bumping him up from 5 to 6.
Wanna know what's truly insane? This is literally "You Fools! This isn't even my final form!" Vecna. Archlich Vecna was the state he was in before he achieved godhood and later an even greater divine rank. Vecna at his peak is infinitely stronger than what wizards gave us. Wizards themselves confirmed that this is Vecna before achieving a Divine Rank, and if you look closely his CR is the same as Demogorgon, Orcus, and Zariel. So before peaking, he rivaled the Prince of Demons in Power as well as a Fallen Solar now Archduchess of the Baator. How's that for scary?
Just
Pointing out orkus can literally make him as a servent…… I find it amusing a cr 26 encounter can have the ability to summon a cr 26 encounter as one it’s actions.
@@patrickmcathey7081 if you take it literally, yes. Lore wise, I don't believe Orcus has enough power to control Vecna anymore by this point. But yeah it is funny thought.
@@patrickmcathey7081 How can he do that? Is it in his stats? I could not find it while Googling
@@sharp_iodine2737 Orcus showed him how to become a lich and gave him some power I believe, and he wouldn't give that for free.
Also, they give the DMs the option to boost up the fight by giving him the Book of Vile Darkness. Strategic selection below:
Select the Major Beneficial Property for 'immunity to Blinded, Deadened, Petrified, and Stunned conditions', and now his Truesight is not inhibited by Heavily Obscured effects and he can 'see' for his counterspell.
Take 3 Minor Benefical Properties of DMG Resistance for Magical Piercing, Magical Bludgeoning, and Fire. This protects against ranged weapon users, fire is very common and spells tend to use DEX saves Vecna lacks, and it should help with the chance a Meteor Storm hits him in a blitz attack.
3 Minor Detrimental properties can be 'Blinded when separated from book by 10 ft', 'Deafened when separated from book by 10 ft', and 'destroy Holy Water within 10 ft'. The Major Benefit negates the first two, since you are still attuned even with distance. The third is just a benefit for undead.
For the Major Detrimental Properties, take the 'rotting flesh' and 'kill a creature of your alignment before attunement'. His flesh is already rotted, and killing an evil subordinate who failed him is nothing new.
Now he's buffed up significantly just from the random (or DM decided) properties, along with the other defined properties.
Yeah, his low HP and lack of legendary actions really makes cheese possible, but to be fair, at this point of his career he's just a really strong spell caster. Sounds like 3 archers with high initiatives just ends the fight too.
make that two, non-optimized archers. treantmonk talked bout how weak vecna is
I would argue that no party should reasonably be in a position where they could cheese him via range. On top of the fact that you’ll probably also be dealing with an army of undead plus several lieutenants at the same time.
@@spartaneternal8423 Well guess what. The level 20 Adventure has you fight him alone in an enclosed room and he can actually get 1 rounded by some unoptimal arcane archers with no magic items. GG
@@RisenRen A level 20 one shot isn’t designed to reflect Vecna’s full capabilities as a villain? Call me surprised. I’m not saying this statblock can’t be cheesed. I’m saying that this cheese would have no impact on Vecna played to his full ability in an actual campaign.
@@spartaneternal8423 This statblock isn't anywhere near representative of his full ability in the first place.
Way of the open hand monk just straight up hard counters vecna. At just third level you can remove his reactions with no save against it.
Yep! By far his greatest weakness is anything that removes reactions, particularly without spells.
I mean to be fair, I feel like Monk in general is the Anti-Mage class. Vecna, as powerful as he is, is the Mage Super Boss
A shocking grasp would also work
@@Zulk_RS nah, abjuration mage or glibbed bard with counter spell is the strongest anti mage. A bard with glibness on can guarantee counter spell a 9th level spell with no roll necessary , using a 3rd level spell slot
Hit him with shocking grasp an he can't do anything
After the beholder episode and this... God, these are so good! The "strength/weaknesses, into beat the bad guy, into cheese him, into secretly a guide for sadistic DMs" HAS to become a series!
I've said this in Treantmonk's video on Vecna: Vecna being a "Time Wizard" should automatically win initiative. He can also cast Fly at will so he should be flying before the start of the battle.
In addition to having Shield available, I would also change Invisibility to Greater Invisibility. I think those were mistakes made by WotC.
Afterthought is for stabbing the spell casters. +13 to hit. 20 Con save. Until the individual succeeds on the save, they can not regain hit points.
Wait, where do you get the Time Wizard Vecna thing from?
'cus if so I might have found a nice tie-in for my Chronurgy Wizard player in a world where time travel is quite literally supossed to be even out of the reach of Gods xD
Remember this is nerfed Vecna for your standard dnd party. This is Vecna on his day off. Optimized Vecna would be nigh unbeatable. Although I agree with all your points.
@@ivodijkman137 Its in the lore of the Vecna Dossier, this Vecna statblock isn't even Vecna at his full power (He takes this form to torment his enemies, if he actually got serious you wouldn't be fighting this statblock)
Since when is Vecna a time wizard, he's famous for his necromancy and being a major contributor to the vile book of darkness
@@a0point0of0view1 Its in the lore of the Vecna Dossier, he is regarded as a powerful time wizard (In fact, the stat block they give him is pre-ascension. And its specifically called out that this is pre-ascension vecna, and it can exist because of Vecna's mastery over time magic.
Maybe, as a bonus action, Vecna can pull out the Book of Vile Darkness he has in his person, gaining additional spells like AOEs, as well as turn his actions (outside of spellcasting) into legendary actions.
But other than that, as a DM planning on having Vecna in a campaign, adding shield and subtle spell is an awesome idea to prevent cheese.
You sir, just got a sub!
When I first saw the stat block, my very first thought was "That's a lot of Necrotic Damage. Hey. Aren't higher level Undead Warlocks just immune to being Frightened and Necrotic Damage? Go Pact of the Blade, grab Improved Pact Weapon for a Longbow, and just fire away at 90ft away and he just cannot hurt you."
Does this Vecna have Robes of the Archmagi? I didn’t see his 3 Attuned items.
@@sidecharacter7165 the stat block doesn’t account for any items outside of Afterthought (his dagger). The adventure they released recommends letting him use the Book of Vile Darkness he has embedded in his chest, or even giving him his Hand and/or Eye. Nerd Immersion gave him a +4 to his INT from the Book of Vile Darkness (+2 from it’s own effect and +2 from the “Major Benefit”), which upped all his DCs by 2
Vecna agrees your combo is mighty (cast Dominate Person), you will be a fine addition to the team.
I think a tank holding him down in an Anti-Magic field would be more than enough to take him down.
late but get sharpshooter at some point and hit him from 600 feet away
Vecna Vs level 20 characters is a joke though, Treantmonk analyzed that 2 fighters with no magic weapons can kill him before he takes a single action
How can this be? Reddit has decided that fighters are worthless at tier 4 gameplay (except for the fact that all tier 4 bosses have LRs and basically teabag spellcasters but martials can throw out 1 and a half disintegrates on an average turn in terms of damage)
@@override367 They are unless they just kill you the first turn
Fighters go bonk vecna
Vecna:
Has a head
Doesn't have legendary actions
Isn't immune to Magical slashing (though the nonmagical immunity could be interpreted as a block here from how it's worded)
Is medium
One Vorpal Crit, depending on ruling, could do the trick outright
@CcNc Was going to say something similar. For 3-4 level 20's this version of Vecna is really not a challenge at all.
What do y'all think of Vecna? I talk about it more in the bonus video, but I really like what they've done with this stat block! Feels like no matter what it's going to be a good fight, unlike other bosses where they either kill the party instantly or are a total pushover. #TarrasqueProblems
Feels weak as hell tbh :( AC is tiny, HP is a joke. 2 Arcane archers with absolutely 0 gear can 1 round him before he even goes... His HP needs to be tripled and he needs legendary actions.
Unfortunately, I think this statblock is a pushover for a level 15 party let alone a level 20 one. He's a legendary evil archlich with higher Wisdom than Intelligence, No 9th level spells, and No legendary actions. What's keeping a fighter from casting "stab" and killing this man in a round or two. He does have escape spells...but he's an Archlich. Why should he need to use them? Did he get this far by running from every fight he found himself in? Kind of ruins the whole evil fantasy of being an "Archlich." I *do* love his Dread Counterspell and Bonus Action Teleport, though.
For your cheese strat make sure to specify that you make the forcecage with bars not a solid wall. While it is invisible you cant target a location that has the path from you to it obstructed, hence forcecage can work with bars but wall of force never will.
I think noting his sight as a limiting factor is important, but truly his main weakness is 18 ac and 250 ish hp for a cr 26 monster. The 80hp heal is nice, but its once per round at best. Without legendary actions hes pretty pants.
Also people are saying his spell list is great, but it's really not. He has a bunch of noob trap spells, non upcastable lightning bolts aren't going to be useful at this level. Twice a day regular invisibility is bad. Why does he have fly as a concentration spell that takes his one action when most monsters of that level just have a fly speed? Why is his only useful concentration spell dominate monster which is once per day? why is his plane shift once per day and only on himself?
I think his only useful spell is at will animate dead, which implies he should have an near endless number of minions with him at all times. But even though he has that apparently the adventure lists him as being alone in a small chamber, meaning to can't make use of his mobility and stay at range well and loses the one good thing he can do.
Hes supposed to be one of the greatest spellcasters ever, but he's just not. Any high level wizard can do what he does but better and that's sad.
Even in his best case scenario vecna needs major modifications to be challenging to a party of adventurers at a level that he's supposed to challenge them. The fact he has bad initiative and no legendary actions plus the low tank stats makes it very likely he won't do anything at all before dying, making him very anticlimactic.
Weaksauce. Way too few hit points and having no legendary actions means he's likely to die before he can act against some decent initiative rolls. :( I'd deffinitely buff him, a lot. Max hit points, and legendary action and lair actions. Then maybe he'll get to act and live past turn 1. 😉
I think the worst part, is that you’re supposed to fight him in an enclosed room, with no minions to help him. Unless you just decide to escape and fight ok better terms, the teleport is almost useless. That enclosed space is also part of his lair too, so he does *want* to fight there.
Honestly, Treatmonk’s fix of making Vecna immune to B, S, or P unless from an artifact, would do a decent trick.
A high level rogue with a Druid in their party can definitely sneak up on him, with the rogues +17 to stealth, and then a pass without trace spell for a +10 to stealth, the rogue will easily be able to sneak up on Vecna.
You can’t just roll high on stealth and successfully sneak you can’t be in view when you sneak
@@Weegiest_beegi yes, but as long as you can reasonably sneak up on him, the rogue can and will.
@@chaosjimthevoidlord3762 Yeah unless Vecna hangs out in a empty room all day odds are you can sneak up on him like you sneak up on anyone else.
@@Ahglock
Just casually walk up behind him with a +27 to stealth.
He’ll never see it coming.
Your high-level rogue has reliable talent, so its stealth floor is already 27 without PWT. A ranger can also do your combo solo (Canny for stealth expertise, already has PWT).
My home additions to this stat block include everything one gains from using the Eye and Hand of Vecna that isn't already included (x-ray vision, 20 STR, +2d8 cold damage to melee, extra spells and charges for them ((other than finger of death, Rotten Fate is already a better version)), immune to surprise, regeneration 1d10 hp per round while not unconscious, turn-your-bones-to-jelly-Touch, and 1/month casting of Wish) as well as Turn Resistance (or honestly even immunity) like regular liches that Vecna would logically also possess. Also a 60 ft fly speed built in so he doesn't have to waste his concentration on Fly, since he can already cast it at will.
Always a treat to see another fun mechanical breakdown!!
Something overlooked here is that Vecna is considered a god, and could easily just chill out in an anti magic field and still cast his spells through it no problem, thus being immune to all magics you try to toss at him.
Edit: I was unaware that the stat block given was before his assent into godhood, so unfortunately he’s gonna still be gimped by Antimagic
The statblock version of Vecna isn't a god, it's before he became a god
@@inky7993 good catch I didn’t notice that! I stand corrected
I see nothing that says anything about anyone being able to ignore the anti magic field in 5e even if they were a god.
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 read the spell anti-magic field, namely: “Spells and other magical Effects, except those created by an artifact or a deity, are suppressed in the Sphere and can't protrude into it.”
I rule true sight to be quite unstoppable. For my setting it can only be stopped by anti divination, anti magic, or lead. I think that's reasonable for being called TRUEsight
agree and disagree. For me the creature still has to be able to see, so blindness effects can shut down.
at the same time i do think it should bypass things that obscure vision, but not through objects. otherwise a party casting true sight now has xray vision though all objects that are not lead.
but I can see why you want to buff it, creatures that rely on it are cheesable if you know the weaknesses. damned if you do, damned if you don;t
Same, if the players complain I just say they have Blindsight as well as Truesight.
How does that make sense? By that same logic people with true sight should be able to see thru walls
When I use true sight it's not by a basic person casting a spell or through an item. I think of extra planar beings who have gone past eyes and stuff.
But I can agree that the more mild versions of true sight can't see through solid walls. And I'll agree that blinding a person might stop their true sight depending on how they are blinded
@@aaronwilliams8887 thats the point of knowing the WEAKNESS.
Vecna and the various parts of Vecna have been around for LONG LONG time - since 1976 in Eldritch Wizardry. I remember player characters talking about getting the hand or the eye of Vecna and me just thinking, "hmmm - our future does not bode well". These over powered but cursed items would eventually destroy the party from within and lead to an unstoppable TPK when we actually encountered Vecna. I'm talking utter and humiliating devastation without a glimpse of hope. My thieves would open a chest to reveal a moldy hand or petrified eye and simply turn to the party and answer, "Empty, nothing to see here". DMs would catch on to my tricks and started having the ring of Vecna or the amulet of Vecna. If pressed about it, I'd reveal a pouch of gold that nobody knew about just so that their natural inclinations about my natural inclinations to steal party treasure seemed to pay off. Of course I stole party treasure, I'm a thief, but I'm not a stupid thief... I'm not doing anything with Vecna. Being a sneaky thief generally made me sole survivor in most TPKs. Then it became my job to drag their dead bodies back to town and cough up my "hard earned" gold to raise the lot from the dead.
Enjoy your Vecna encounters - TPKs for everybody.
Head of Vecna was too OP.
That Vecna is the statblock before his ascension to Godhood, that's why it's beatable. Well, technically in 3.5 there was a statblock for Vecna and many other gods, but they where absolutely insane, much much more than this Vecna and you needed to be a god yourself to kill one.
People often talk about fabled 3.5 e stat blocks of gods and I am sitting here trying to Find ONE for years.
Those stat blocks were just for the Avatars of gods not the gods themselves.
@@MeshifuariThe Trove used to be a great website where you could find PDFs of old D&D books. It's been taken down now but you can still find a lot of its stuff on the way back machine.
Deities and demigods 3.5e great book
Also Faiths and panteons
@@gabriel101x Man, wich site you know instead of the trove?
Bro, you offering your work for free to those that can’t afford your patreon convinced me to sub. Good on ya.
Ah yes another thing for the bard to boink
It's worth noting in regards to Vecna Vs Orcus that Orcus, as written, has the ability to summon a Vecna to fight for him, in addition to a second basic lich and demilich all at once
Might I suggest the other half of a wombo combo with Force Cage... At 6 levels of exhaustion, the creature dies.
Sickening Radiance
XGE
p164
4th-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 120 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes
Dim, greenish light spreads within a 30-foot-radius sphere centered on a point you choose within range. The light spreads around corners, and it lasts until the spell ends.
When a creature moves into the spell's area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, and it suffers one level of exhaustion and emits a dim, greenish light in a 5-foot radius. This light makes it impossible for the creature to benefit from being invisible. The light and any levels of exhaustion caused by this spell go away when the spell ends.
Now this is something I can get behind
Condition Immunities : exhaustion
@@Hazslin woo well played Vecna... Well played. Works on just about anything else though XD
“Twenty minutes later I was 12 inches deep into orc female” I’m dead 🤣
Me and 3 other players took part in the level 20 oneshot that was put out with the Vecna stat block. For DMs worried about cheesy strats like the ones in this video, just make sure your players aren't planning to meta game. Most of our players were short notice, and the ones that weren't intentionally didn't look at the stat block. One of our characters was killed, the rest of us were on middling to low HP. Obviously be wary of your players, but even at level 20, you absolutely have a chance to give them hell
Amazes me that a literal god wizard barely accounted for having the same weaknesses as basically every spellcaster
Isn't Vecna the god of magic? How does he not have access to all spells like a LVL 50 wizard or something? Even his avatars should at least have spell slots like a LVL 30 wizard and have all spells prepared at all times.
Treantmonk Temple dropped Vecna in one round with a pair of level 20 human Arcane Archers with no magical items. The only provision is that everyone rolls a 10 on their initiative checks. The AA's beat Vecna's initiative, and stay at range. Vecna's reactions are useless as no spells, no one in melee range. Vecna's effed.
I don't think the dagger is useless, each strike forces a high con saving throw and apon a fail the target Cannot heal until a successful re-save but this effect happens every successful hit with the dagger, rendering healing useless
We ran a one shot combat with this, archery itself wasn't so great because he could teleport to cover, however the archer had a bow of certain death so he couldn't regain health.
Interesting point of order.
A tricky DM might be able to give Vecna some of the powers that his eye and hand give him. Since those were cut off of him when he was in this state. So it would make sense that he can actually pull those powers out
Thank you for the video especially the how to win. For my campaign I was going to run Vecna as the final boss and with this video I know how to modify him to fix those mistakes.
Well done. Your commitment to improving your content is clear to see in this vid.
Heavy makes actually sense, it's just badly named. It should be called unwieldy. Just imagine a three to five year old wielding a polearm or trying to draw a long bow to full length.
Just rename short and long bow into hunting and war bow, as there are powerfull composite bows and weak longbows.
It makes sense according to physics but in a game of magic and fantasy why can’t a halfling swing a great axe
I do just want to reiterate this is before he was betrayed by Kas, thus before he became a true god
How to fix Vecna: 1) Dont forget he *has* the Book of Vile Darkness encased in his chest. 2) Give him a spell list with spell slots.
lore isn't a statblock, statblock don't mention the book. he has w.e items the dm pleases.
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 Their is a side note that says "If you wanted to add more challenge, consider giving him the book of Vile Darkness" which to me is reasonable, the thing that made this Vecna Statblock unusual was the fact that they didn't give him his lair actions (You'd most likely be facing Vecna in his Lair, which gives him lair actions)
@@HallowedKeeper_ they dont give lair actions in the stat block but in the adventure they give lair action if the dm wants to add them in for more of a challenge
@@kurtacus3581 It should be on the same page as his statblock, not in a single specific adventure. (Literally every other creature with Lair actions has it on their page)
@@HallowedKeeper_ it should. But i was just informing you that there is lair actions. You just have to look at the adventure that is included with the vecna statblock
truesight means he can see out of the force cage , so he could bonus action teleport out of the cage, though the fighter method may work, you still would have to beat him in initiative.
he can't see through the fog with truesight through, so if its heavily obscured area then he couldnt see passed the cage. The cage is to keep him from moving regularly
I believe he's only got +3 initiative. A level 20 Archer is likely to have a 20 dex and therefore a better initiative bonus
I think it’s really cool that you offer the patreon video for free for those who can’t afford it. I also think the discord dm is a good way of going about it.
I love how you introduce the titles. That voice is level 20
This way of killing Vecna is frakking amazing. :O I thought your builds thus far have been brilliant but this is so much more amazing.
Of course this is all phrased as if Vecna is just in a room by himself and the group is just waltzing in on him fresh and unexpected. In which case, wtf is the dm doing. This is not a situation someone like Vecna would ever find themselves in.
That was an A1 ad man. Great work!
Meta-magic subtle spell is a useful feat to give a Wizard, it opens up so many options including _run away… run away_
a smoke bomb being able to block true sight is certainly something
Another thing is that Vecna can also cast Animate Dead as an action at will. So depending on the initiative order before getting by the players, he can summon some zombies or skeletons to try and break their concentration for him or keep them busy
You know I'd love to see a boss that spawns in numbers equivalent to who's fighting it and each one is a perfect clone of the each party member all the way down to their stats and items they are carrying on hand.
I'm planning something like this as soon as I get to trap my players in the feywild.. Thinking of the magic mirrors from different fairy tales
So unless your DM coordinates them worse than you do, you have a 50% chance of a TPK? Seems a little high for me. Could be cool if you came up with a good way of nerfing them slightly, e.g. they have no proficiency bonus for the first round or two as they get used to their new forms
My campaigns bbeg literally is a sentient mirror that does this.
dread counterspell is the biggest f you to spellcasters ever and i love it
Any DM that leaves Vecna in an open room with no assistance is probably running the encounter wrong. The silenced, obscured forcecage is all fine and dandy until his magic helpers remove it for him. Aha!
Always wonder what would happened if the Sword ok Kas was wielded by someone with The Hand of Vecna
You can also: 2 level 17 scribes wizard and tempest cleric with the metamagic adept: subtle spell and the elemental adept: lightning feats. Both subtle spell meteor swarm and change the damage type to lightning and use the channel divinity to deal max damage. This is 240 damage per caster, ignores resistance and can't be counterspelled
We just fought Vecna in my weekly game. It wasn't actually Vecna, just the last form of the big bad was the Vecna Stat block. There was also some adds and lair actions, and our lvl 20 party was pretty tapped out. We managed to beat him one round. My paladin got to act first after the enemy transformed into this Vecna statblock and I had Holy Weapon up. I was completely out of spells, and our DM made it sound like the big bad was going to try and flee or teleport away once he could. In fact his previous form could teleport as a legendary action as well. So I popped the Holy Weapons ending ability to try and blind him and he failed. Once blinded he could use almost none of his abilities. No teleport, no healing, no counterspelling. And it was very simple for 5 level 20 characters to deal the roughly 300 hp to kill him.
spell Dimensional Anchor, and immunity to necrotic(or resist) damage takes care of a lot of that awesomeness
So having tried out a series of Vecna battles on Enworld, one thing we learned about the Afterthought Dagger. Vecna can Rotten Fate someone down to 0, move into melee, and double crit them with the dagger....instantly killing them. It is a very nasty way to truly finish a PC.
um you cant hurt him now that he is in the cage "A prison in the shape of a box can be up to 10 feet on a side, creating a solid barrier that prevents any matter from passing through it and blocking any Spells cast into or out of the area." so yay Vecna is trapped but cant be hurt
if you read the spell further you'll see that you can form it with bars that things can pass through!
@@DnDShorts ah fair enough
oh man that cheese stratagem is awsome!!! the DM will not allow to wish stop vecna from revenge..... if you are a low lived race your character will suffer, (or maybe thier cult will resurrected faster just for fun)
This video is amusing since at the last game I was in, our party dwarf rogue decided to literally piss on an effigy of Vecna…the DM left us with a cliffhanger (to be resolved this weekend) of something coming at the party.
I love that it’s challenging stat block not impossible takes cheese or some good tactics to beat
Great video man! Very useful, nice editing and good pacing
Dude your content is so fun and has me laughing nearly the whole time! Thank you because I really need to laugh right now! 🤣
You can also beat vecna as a level 1 sorcerer all you need is a bag of holding and the spell catapult now you can cast catapult 2 before a long rest now cast catapult on the nearest pebble, preferably a 1 pound pebble. Repeat this until you have 500 1 pound pebbles in the bag of holding. Once you reach vecna just turn the bag of holding inside out pointing the bag towards vecna. Now he must roll 500 dc 12 dex saves, for each save he fails he must tak 3d8 damage, for each he succeeds he takes half that damage. And that’s how you beat vecna at level 1
I had an idea for this, but then I saw your strat, and wow. You really did do Vecna dirty. Antimagic Field, as great as it is, cannot beat a forcecaged Vecna who is unable to do basically anything. I'll see if I can come up with something cheesier in the meanwhile though!
I just found one, and ooh boy...same Setup you have, silence, and forcecage. But, have the Cleric outside of the room casting the Forbiddance spell.
Forbiddance prevents ALL planar travel, meaning spells such as Dimension Door, Plane Shift, and Vecna's teleport simply doesn't work. The reason why you silence him anyway is because he could still dispel the forbiddance spell. Once Vecna is within the Force Cage, simply wait for the spell to complete and Vecna is simply doomed. No teleport, unable to dispel, and cannot move. Finally, to really screw over Vecna, cast Antimagic Field on yourself and leave the room. Vecna will be completely unable to damage you, or end your concentration because the Antimagic Field doesn't affect concentration. Once you've left, step back in every once in a while to re-cast Silence until he dies a very humiliating death.
Don't think this will work RAW, unfortunately. Forbiddance only prevents teleporting INTO the affected area (For the Duration, Creatures can't Teleport INTO the area or use Portals, such as those created by the gate spell, to enter the area. The spell proofs the area against planar Travel, and therefore prevents Creatures from ACCESSING the area by way of the Astral Plane, Ethereal Plane, Feywild, Shadowfell, or the Plane Shift spell.); nothing is said about teleporting WITHIN or AWAY from it, so Plane Shifting out is still an option. Not to mention the 10 minute cast time. Also, if your DM would allow it to prevent teleporting, it would affect your group as well. I would also note that Demension Door and Vecna's reactions/bonus action are not planar travel, and RAW would also not be affected by Forbiddance.
@@nickschile4807 Hmm...seems I misread the spell a bit. Man, magic in DND is complex...Ethereal Travel, Planar Travel, and Teleportation are all completely different things.
@@nickschile4807 My only other idea for cheese is to somehow get a giant barbarian to cram Vecna into a tub of holy water, put a lid on it, put padlocks on the lid, then cast Antimagic field. He can't teleport and must slowly drown in Holy Water.
Antimagic Field requires concentration, so you have to drop concentration on Silence to maintain Antimagic Field.
@@stewartb1019 Yes but Anti magic Field also negates all magic within it, so everything Vecna has would stop working.
brutal! but what would be even more humiliating is finding a way to trap Vecna in an amulet, kind of a genie in a lamp deal only there's no way for him to escape unless someone/thing destroys the amulet
"He's got a Passive Perception of 25! *So you aren't sneaking up on him."*
The average level 20 Rogue: *casually rolls a minimum 27 Stealth check thanks to Reliable Talent and a +17 bonus to the roll from Expertise*
The average level 20 Monk: *can spend 4 Ki points to turn invisible at will for up to 1 minute.*
The average level 20 Bard: *can grant an additional d12 to a Stealth Check with Bardic Inspiration for up to 5 party members, on top of the bonuses they already get.*
The average level 20 Druid or Ranger: *casually gives everyone in the party Pass Without Trace, giving an automatic +10 to all Stealth checks*
The average level 20 Artificer, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Ranger, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard: *casually has access to Enhance Ability, Cat's Grace, giving the least stealthy party member advantage on Dexterity Saving Throws, and can even use higher level spell slots to target multiple party members*
The average level 20 Artificer, Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard: *casually has access to Invisibility, giving advantage on all Stealth Checks without needing another party to use Cat's Grace, and can use higher level slots to target the whole party*
Yeah...25 Passive Perception is kinda weak for a Final Boss, bro.
I like the idea of Vecna trolling the party with the occasional counterspell as soon in the campaign as they know eachother exist.
0:33 a Rogue at level 13 with max Dexterity (as it should have by that point.) is guaranteed to sneak up on him. Also any one else that gains expertise through feats can sneak past Vecna at level 13 with a 55% success rate (Sneaky Goblin Monk is actually really quite fun).
Other than that, yes.
This is amazing! Im actually planning on him being the BBEG of my homebrew, but when i looked at him I decided he was a bit weak. So im having it to where he has access to thr book of vile darkness. Im also allowing him to use his eye and hand, bc its vecna? Why not?
As the DM, may I suggest manually selecting the random properties for the book? The Minor Beneficial would be good to add some dmg resistances. Some of the Detrimentals can actually be boons for undead (like destroy Holy Water in 10 ft).
@@Watcher40K9 Oh most definitely, and I feel that the detrimental might balance out the chaos
You are the DM dude, you can buff him as much as you want
All you have to do is challenge him to a "running with scissors" contest and hope he rolls a 1.
I always give liches the Mislead spell and start encounters with it active… and every time it catches players off guard.
archer nova build: *pushes tarrasque away* now this, this is big game!
That smoke screen needs to be deployed within 40 feet to take affect because targeting a point takes line of sight for you also.
So you're telling me, to beat a non-divine Vecna, I just need to be a Gunslinger Fighter with 2 spellcaster friends? I need to find a Wizard and either a Bard or Sorcerer. Vecna owes me some money.
i like how you made us roll a perception check (which i passed btw) in this video lol
1) Hilarious ad break as always
2) Good to see the D&D Shorts creative way to break and humiliate Vecna
3) Those monster fights are fun, right?
I get the recent hate for dnd but it’s refreshing to see content that is just fun again
i was grossly underwhelmed by this stat block. a) a surprise round shuts him off. b) they made him undead, so many abilities just nerf him. BUT c) even though he is undead, it is specifically stated that he returns by his soul forming a new body, meaning one hit from a polymorph, and you can soul cage him, or better, Accursed Specter, pulling VECNA as a servant to you. BUT the wording says very specifically that after its service is up, it vanishes to the afterlife. so if you adhere strictly to the rules as written, you can exorcise Vecna.
Accursed Specter only works on Humanoids. However, you can use Command Undead on him (14th level necromancer). And there's actually a decent chance of it working. Nerf his INT using a variety of items and spells and he's screwed.
Yea, I know it only works on humanoids, that’s why I included true polymorph.
I'm not gonna lie, i liked it better when Vecna was untouchable. It would be fine if it was just an avatar, but if they're gonna stat out the actual god they need to do the other ones too. Just to be fair. Vecna was kind of one of my favorite characters for a long time and i've used him, in one form or another, in a lot of my games. You can always find his eye and hand in one of my games if you want to look.
I would like to point out that the stats for Vecna are for when he was an arch lich, not a god. God Vecna is still untouchable but these stats are for Vecna when he’s much more vulnerable.
@@no-oneimportant6861 Ah ok, that makes more sense. Still, i wouldn't mind another deities and demigods book. I just don't like when one of them is singled out.
From the DnDBeyond video about the dossier, he isn’t a god in this form. He’s an archlich. So he’s an incredibly powerful spellcaster but not divine.
As was covered in Treantmonk's video: The fighters don't even need to be optimized. All they need is high dex, and sharpshooter, and they're pretty much good to go. Not giving vecna any reaction defensive spells was probably an oversight.
'Passive perception of 25, so you aren't sneaking up on him' (looks at the multiple times I've pulled off 40+ stealth checks on a non-optimized-for-stealth rogue/warlock) I beg to differ... as long as he is using his passive and not checking for it.
The way I'm going to run it eventually is use this as phase 1 battle and use the guide to the shadowfell book off of dm guilds stat block in which is insane
Just wanted to say thank you, I was very concerned running him in my first Homebrew Campaign and one of my players is an absolute mega mind caster and I was very concerned with Vecna getting away to continue the story but it sounds like Subtle Spell will solve this concern.
The problem with these strategies is it assumes Vecna is alone. While his experience with Kas means he may not ever again want a retainer who approaches his level, he's gonna have a bunch of level 10-15 henchmen forming up his own "party/bodyguard" - say, 1-2 melee fighters, 1-2 archers, a rogue/assassin type, an evil cleric, 1-2 arcane spellcasters (his apprentices), plus Vecna's familiar and any constructs (e.g. Golems) he has made. Unless he's on some super secret errand where he doesn't want to "roll deep" with an entourage, you're very unlikely to encounter him alone .
"Why do we want to defeat Vecna? Why not join him?"
Warlock with pact of the Undying
Im throw a clone (with 1 hp ) of this at my lv 5 players
2:35 most dangerous spell caster printed in 5e FTFY.
Also the items can still be regular counterspell
Nice video and fair play for giving links away free on your Discord as well. Only comment I would say is I didn't like the split second text showing up at times in the background. Not sure what was going on there. Looking forward to more.
Forcecage has a verbal component to it as well, so if you're too close after casting Silence you can't cast it.
Love your videos. Been binging them lately. And given the humor on display, I think you will take this comment in the jovial spirit intended. Does your microphone have to buy you dinner to get that level of attention? =)
Truesight can see into the ethereal plane. Depending on what that is taken to mean, a good chunk of these strategies aren't viable.
That's something I thought as well. Unless you can obscure vision in the Ethereal Plane, he should be able to use his teleport within the range of his Truesight. Though, the DM could rule that sight blocking effects also block sight in the Ethereal (think that's kind of bad since it would mean spells can affect the plane) or that seeing into the Ethereal doesn't provide equivalent sight into the Material. Then he'd be SOL.
acerarak: ah that's adorable you think he's the threat
Vecnas kit is very giga brain, tons of outplay potential but punishing if he messes up bc long cooldowns
Vecna is a legendary Necromancer.
No DM in their right mind would leave Vecna without servants.
Vecna won't be affected by it and casters would become effectively useless.
This is an endgame boss,
it is supposed to be extremely intelligent ruler of the dead.
If players don't feel challanged by it, then you are using Vecna wrong.
Heck I would personally add an Antimagic Field just to up the stakes.
You shoudl make a "take two" on this video but with Vecna having the Book of Vile Darkness for extra spice as recommended in the Vecna Dossier 👀
True Polymorph a Tarrasque into a human and magic jar into its body. Now no spells can touch you.
Are we overthinking this? There's a weapon in canon which is perfect for the assassination of Vecna, and it's not even hard to get. In the "Frozen Woe" adventure inside The Explorer's Guide to Wildemount, there's a magic bioweapon called Frozen Woe. The PC's get multiple opportunities to get their hands on doses of these blue spores in clear glass vials. The adventure is for Level 1 characters. If a character fails a Con Save, that character becomes infected and slowly dies. No healing works to replenish lost hit points, and the text specifies that divine magic will not cure it. We are talking about a bio-weapon which was created by researchers who specifically wanted to wage war against the gods, and Vecna is one of the gods of Exandria, so this is kind of its intended purpose. It's a slow death, but it's quite ironclad of a death without the cure.
I just saw this video now so I know I'm late to the conversation but: Your supposed "cheesy strategy" is really a very normal and effective method for dealing with any spellcaster generally. Nullify their ability to cast, immobilise them, deal with them from a distance after removing their ability to be a threat to you. To me that's not cheesy, that's standard tactics.
If you have saved up a portent 1, 2 or 3 and cast true polymorph on vecna while he's in a silence spell you can turn him into a small statue by true polymorph. Maintain the concentration for the hour and you have a way of vecna not resurrecting. After this find some way to keep the statue safely stored away.
Then as a dm, you can start a new campaign 2 millennia away, where most people have forgotton that it was an actual lich trapped in stone except for a niche cult, and have them attempt to get the statue and dispell the polymorph.
This is clever until Vecna shows up because he’s a master of time magic and you have merely inconvenienced one of his infinite number of selves.
@@spartaneternal8423 vecna only acquired the ability to go through time after ascending as lesser deity. Deities are allowed little influence on the mortal world, and interacting with yourself from the past is one of the biggest paradoxes you can achieve.
It's not weird to think that at least Vecna doesn't have the ability to 'just dispell it from the future', especially if his statue is being kept in something like a temple of a rival god.
@@Olav_Hansen It’s directly stated in the dossier that Vecna prior to his death by Kas had mastered time. As such he can appear on worlds in this form, his predeath form, where his eye and hand exist.
@@spartaneternal8423 I checked the forgotten realms wiki, he lost his physical body in the same battle where his eye and left hand were cut off by Kas.
Over centuries of having a spiritual presence in the world, he at some point amassed enough followers to rise to demigod and ultimately deity.
To further back the claim that this is pre Kas Vecna, if you look at the artwork he has 2 eyes and hands.
Oh, and I quote the last 'flavour' line: This stat block depicts Vecna in his archlich form prior to Kas's betrayal.
My character:Please just stop this madness I’m only a level four dragon born wizard working for the shadow wizard money gang
Vecna can be super petty and stop you from stabilizing an ally with Spare The Dying with Dread Counterspell through Scrying or cancel a heal or revivify.
If those spells don't work because of a roll, it could be because Vecna is in the background.
Kit your halfling archers out with arrows of slaying to really hammer Vecna, he ain't going anywhere but down. No no no not like that, YOU ANIMALS!