Subaru Thanksgiving Special: Check Engine P0171 P0457
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 พ.ย. 2024
- Time to sit back, relax, digest the turkey, and watch some TH-cam :)
A Check Engine light on this 2006 Subaru Outback turns into an interesting case study...
"SCIENTIFIC METHOD" VS. "PARTS CANNON"
Let the games begin!
Enjoy and Happy Thanksgiving!
-Ivan
![BABYMONSTER - 'DRIP' M/V REACTION [WAS NOT EXPECTING THIS!!!]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/t0Lpgr1jo3Y/mqdefault.jpg)
I can't believe I saw this video a few days after my 2010 Forester XT pulled a P0171, then a P0457 and ran poorly. After taking off the cowling and checking around the various wiring and hoses, I discovered the exit nipple for the hose had broken off the purge solenoid valve and was hanging there. I ordered the new part (the 2010 XT used three different ones, mine was a late '09 build, the part was 16102AA470 ). Replaced the part and no more codes and the engine runs like new again! Thank you so much for posting this for others to see and understand.
From sunglasses to a headlamp... We call that determination in my book. See why no one should ignore that evap code folks. Well done sir
LOL Keith hopefully the next one will take 5 minutes ;) It was a great learning experience for sure.
Ah dude total car saver!! Had the p0457 code, no smell of gas, gas cap solid, no hoses bent, cracked, or loose. MAF solid. Vacuum lines solid. Only thing is that I don’t have a scan tool to watch trims, and you went directly to where all things were pointing, AND proved it. Thanks man!!!
I VERY rarely ever guess it right at the beginning of your videos but when I read the description on this one, based on the two codes together, my first thought was a purge valve or evap system causing a vacuum leak but then you went down the MAF road and I assumed I was over thinking things again. Super video, Ivan!
Yeah I made the slight mistake of putting on the blinders and focusing on only ONE of the two codes. Kind of felt a little humbled in hindsight, but still made for an interesting video...thanks for coming along!
No need to be humbled. You're pretty good at what you do and you found the issue. If there's one thing I've learned from both you and Eric O,
picking one code and running with it is often the best way to go. A
lot depends on when when the light came on and if both codes occurred at the same time. If the light just came on yesterday and both codes were stored then it seems like figuring out how they could be related would
be the way to go. That was my thinking when I read the description and
tried to venture a guess before rolling the video. If the light had
been on for 6 months then they could be completely unrelated.
Ivan, I know and agree that using your scan tools and scopes can save a lot of time. In a scenarios like this with erratic fuel trims I would have gone to spraying carb cleaner and pinching hoses early on because it's quick and easy. Good job though, you found the real problem without installing unnecessary parts. I enjoy your videos. I've been out of the industry for 13yrs and you help me stay up to speed. Thanks, Ted.
Super smart interesting videos buddy keep em coming I will be watching!
Hey Brian, honored to have you here! I definitely have more Chevy vids than Ford but I'll try to keep it interesting :)
As soon as I saw 1.8g/s on the MAF reading, I thought something was off... Good catch! Intermittent issues like that can be so hard to find!
Also just about the best real-world example of why you ground with a test light. It probably saved the PCM there!
Amazing to see the two codes were actually related! Not unbelievable, but pretty cool! If only it was that easy every time, eh?
Happy Thanksgiving, Ivan!
Yes the test light is like a safety valve. The worst thing that can happen is the light bulb lights up lol
Wow that's a great example on using a hunch and lots of smarts.
Ivan, your vids just keep getting better all the time. Thanks for your taking time to do them. HAPPY THANKSGIVING!
Thank you for your feedback, I really appreciate it!
Mine is doing the EXACT SAME thing. But when blocking off the evap nothing changed for me, extremely high random sporadic fuel trims at cruising speed primarily. Rockets right up to 35 out of nowhere. I feel like I'm chasing a ghost, I've literally almost been through every system on this car. Doing plugs and coils now. Swapped MAF, 02's, thoroughly checked for vacuum leaks. Checked for exhaust leaks, PCV system blocked temporarily. Fuel pressure next. 🤷♂️
Thanks Ivan. Needed my "fix" for today. Have a great Thanksgiving!
Well done Ivan ,just the kind of thing i do all to frequently choice of two and bam i always seem to pick the wrong one.
I liked the way you sussed it out tho,top man.
thanks Ivan and Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.
Slight panic at the parts gun loading, . Then realized it was wind up
Really cool fix Ivan. This was a nice holiday treat. Happy Thanksgiving!
Happy Holidays to you and your Family. Thank You for all you do!
This was an awesome find! Totally committed to your job. Thanks for this Ivan.
Think it was Erico who remarked that with a evap leak, the trims go rich at the start and then go lean.Hard to get the brain around "equivalence ratios" and voltage from the sensor. Zirconium has been hard wired for too long.Very easy get side tracked with the parts cannon and hope the gamble pays off.From experience 60 minutes of sound diagnostics is equal to 3 days with the Gatling gun.Nice fix !
Wow, great job man! Always a treat to watch your vids :) Greetings from Norway
Great video Ivan, u were actually grounding the signal wire. Live and learn
Hi at 1.45 when you showed the freeze frame I saw the idle @ 704 rpm and the air flow meter @ 2.0 g/sec I felt that it was kind of low for a 2.5 liter engine I worked lately on a 2011 WRX with the same EVAP fault I had a hard time to figure the system out because I work mostly on European cars VW Audi etc.. and the way that the tank diagnosis works is completely different what I'm used to is a Leak detection pump so the tank is pressurized and the subi creates a vacuum in the tank so I found that the tank vent valve was stuck open so the solenoid would not close the part is a rectangular black box with a built in air filter it's in the trunk on the left under a metal shield I put a new gas cap at the same time just to be shure but what I don't like about that system is the car has no quick EVAP test function on a scan tool on most VW you can test a car at idle it takes a few minutes or if you go for a test drive the readiness will pass pretty quickly with the Subaru it takes a long time so it's hard to see if the problem is fixed before giving the car back to the customer do you have any suggestions for that ?
Yeah some cars take a while to run the monitors, and Subarus generally don't have direct bidirectional controls for each solenoid separately. In that case the smoke machine and manually energizing the valve is the best option...
had the same issue with a '13 chevy cruze. Stuck purge valve causing lean code. Good video enjoyed it. Happy Thanksgiving!
Ivan, there is a saying that "if you carry a hammer everything looks like a nail" and I think sometimes a scanner can become a bit of a hammer. When hit with a P0171 the first thing I think "where's the air leak?", the P0457 immediately said to me "this could be it, so rule it out first". Anyway, good that you got the right diagnosis in the end without firing off the fully loaded parts cannon :-).
Sorry, I missed it on previous comments. What was the part number for the replacement solenoid? I have the same issue with my 2005 Legacy GT.
Awesome job Ivan I did not know that vacuum leak can change MAF signal. Happy thanksgiving .
Pretty timely. Just fixed my 2010 Mariner 2.5L 97k miles with a leaky EVAP purge valve. Car started to have surging idle problems and occasional EVAP leak code. I'm away from my garage with tools and OBII reader. It doesn't have a IAC so cleaned the throttle body. No joy. Suspected MAF sensor but it looked clean. I pulled the EVAP purge valve off and blew through it. It leaked. Bought a harbor freight hand vacuum pump just to make sure it wouldn't hold vacuum. Yep. O'Reilly's part was $40 vs $80 at the dealer plus had life time warranty. Car runs like new with improved gas mileage.
Great job!
I went through your analysis again to try and understand your leap of logic pointing to the purge valve. I had checked my fuel trims and MAF prior to making our journey south while resetting the EVAP leak code. All were normal. This tells me a leaky EVAP purge valve can display different symptoms. Only common thread was the occasional EVAP code which usually seemed to occur just after filling (I thought it was Ford's not so brilliant no gas cap design). I went after the purge valve as everything else got cleaned or seemed normal.
Good job continuing to test and ensuring everything added up before tossing some parts at it.
Really nice diagnostic.
Excellent repair , happy thanksgiving.
Thanks for the heads up
Nice Work Ivan. Happy thanksgiving to you and your family.
great video Ivan. good definitive proof on the purge valve. I am confused on one thing though. wouldn't a leaking purge valve cause a rich fuel condition because it is pulling fuel vapors
it will be rich until it uses up all the gas vapors then it will be lean
John is quite correct here, because the purge valve will then be pulling air thru the canister vent. This vent is normally open unless the system wants to do a vacuum pull down on the tank to test for loose gas cap, evap system integrity, etc.
My own runs lean after 10 minutes, but black smoke is coming out the exhaust, but lamda isnt reading rich
I have a 2009 Subaru Legacy 2.5L Special Edition, I had the exact same problem with it. Thanks for posting this video, I replaced it and finally my car is running like it should. I have replaced the Spark plugs, Spark plug wires, MAF sensor, Catalytic converters with the exhaust manifolds. I also replaced both O2 sensors and still had the problem. Now if I could figure out why my A/C only work s if I use the defroster. I have already checked the A/C clutch and replaced the relays as well. Any suggestions?
Wow that's quite the parts cannon attack! Sounds like a bad button on your HVAC controls...
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Ok I will look into replacing the HVAC controls and hopefully that takes care of it. Thanks again.
As always, intermittent faults are the hardest to pin downAt least now you can enjoy your turkey. Here in Ireland, we have to wait till Christmas for turkeyHappy Thanksgiving
You were very wise to use a test light as a ground pin. I'm not sure the MAF would have damaged itself in this case but I don't think the signal pin on the ECU is a straight path to ground. That shows how important having the right pinout is; damn you Snap-on!
You will notice that the test light did not light when grounding the MAF signal pin, which is typical of high-impedance sensing circuits...very little current flow. Yes I'm a big fan of the test light as a "safe" electrical tool :)
Happy Thanksgiving Ivan and thanks for another great video.
Is that sticking solenoid somewhat the equivalent of a vacuum leak ? I have hopefully learned at least that high or low fuel trims are not good, e.g. maf problems , fuel pressure problems, vacuum leak, and probably many more I'm not aware of. You were relentless and systematic in your diagnosis and was a joy to watch. Again Happy Thanksgiving and thanks for all the great videos !
Yes, it was exactly equivalent to a vacuum leak, but an intermittent one! And you couldn't hear it either! Thanks for all your great comments and Happy Thanksgiving :)
Good video Ivan good thing you didn't fire the parts cannon. You and your have a great Thanksgiving
Eric Corse
I have this problem on my 2012 Subaru Outback is it always the purge valve I’ve cleaned the maf senor twice now and still have the check engine light on
Good job, good video again. Stuck with it to a two point verification. Keep going.
Nicely done Ivan, when i see an evap code like a purge code or a leak code with a lean code i start by pinching of the purge hose to see if it changes the condition because i get those to together alot
Nice job Ivan - Happy belated Thanksgiving to you and the family. :)
Good video Ivan happy thanksgiving to you and your family
Good job brother. Always a good case study.
thanks Ivan, happy thanksgiving, sandy
The video was a bit long to watch. What was the cause for the p0171 code and how was it fixed?
GreatVideo: Another great awesome video. Keep up the good work.
Great diagnosis Ivan!
I have had snap on wiring diagram be wrong more than a few times
Great call Ivan. Iv seen snappy have some info issues before. Happy thanksgiving
As always, so interesting and informative.
Well I'm here late again, but I hope you had a great Thanksgiving. Way to go finding the wrong pin outs. I would have thrown parts at it and be wrong! :)
gut feeling is not to ignore an easy to fix evap code
Nice find Ivan! Happy Thanksgiving!
help, my wife has a 99 nissan altima. its stalling once in a wail with a . . p1320 code. I replaced the distributer, mass airflow. wire, plugs, and it gave a code just now..
Awesome work Ivan. I had an 05 Outback with the same problem and same codes and I spent hours doing smoke tests, chasing phantoms and questioning my worth as a human being. I'm curious as to what led you to think of clamping the vapor return line?
I think I remembered one of ScannerDanner's old videos where he had a leaking brake booster causing an "internal" vacuum leak, and pinpointed it by pinching off vacuum hoses :) Often times the right idea comes along when I turn off the camera so I can think quietly lol
Hahaha. I never guess it right. But I keep trying. Lol.. Great vid as usual.
what was your guess? There are no wrong guesses, as long as you justify it with some logic ;)
motoYam82 I Initially thought about a Dirty or partially clogged air filter. that could cause variations on the MAF readings. But then you found the culprit without even looking at the air filter.
Actually I did look at the air filter...you can see it through the MAF sensor hole lol. That is sound logic, so a valid guess!
motoYam82 Oh... it seems I've learnt something after all Lol.
Man you did a beautiful job brother ,thanks for Sharing this ,I'm crazy with the same codes in my wrx I'm going to check this purge valve,thanks again, like and subscribe 👍👍👍
*Happy Thanksgiving, Ivan and Family* That was a great diagnosis, good for you! Have you heard from Eric O? Is he & Family ok? No video for quite a while now, and no notice or news.
I think it's called hunting season lol
HUBBABUBBA DOOPYDOOP I'm pretty sure he just put up an engine mount video
reweydewy
You are correct, thank you!
I would've quickly retightened the gas cap. Why do testers show the dollar sign on readings? Maybe get a Gopro. Preferably drive the car to warm it up and to clear unburned fuel. Watch freeze frame readings. Erase codes but remember them. Drive the car to check new codes.
So. What are the numbers happy at. For the g/s I mean. What is a typical reading. And is this an a Roos the board number. Meaning any vehicle should be about the same ?
2- what would be a happy number for the equivalence ratio. Not really up to par on that sensor.
the equivalence ratio is your fuel/air mixture i.e 14.7:1 which translate to the number 1, any number above 1 is a lean mixture and any number below is rich mixture it's not a sensor it's a calculated value for the pcm based on either normal O2 or AFR (newer wide band O2). And as for the g/s you can go with the basic rule of the engine size in liters like a gm 2.2l and you do +or- 0.2 so for that said 2.2l gm motor a good maf would usually read between 2.0 and 2.4 g/s at idle hope this answer your questions :)
Good job Ivan
Awesome diagnosis!
wow cool find but why was the ground singal so bad and when you grounded it it got beter
The pinouts were wrong on the Verus... That was actually the MAF SIGNAL wire that I grounded! When I grounded it I think the ECM went into OPEN LOOP-FAULT starategy.
did that fix the issue for good or did you end up replacing the B1S1 AF?
good shit Ivan as usual. where gonna have to give you the nick name The IvanNator lol
hahaha I like it!
so the second code on the Verus was causing the first code ?.. tricky
Well a failed part was causing both codes to be more accurate ;)
like always Ivan great vid
Ivan, have you ever did a video explaining long term trim and short term trim
For the Rolls Royce price you pay for a Snap On scanner the info should be spot on...that's why you pay the premium right? Another top example of diagnostic logic Ivan.
Yeah that was a bit disappointing, but even the OEM Subaru diagram is not obvious until you trace some wires. I should have done voltage checks at all 5 wires just to be sure :)
ur the man,,,I would've put gas a blow it up...lol
as soon as i saw the evap and lean code i was suspected the purge valve haha
HobbyJunkeyMan Yeah that screamed out at me as well. Ivan hasn't been watching Eric recently haha
The tricky part was driving it around enough and catching it in the act... can't make the call until you catch it live. Intermittent problems are often much more difficult to pinpoint than constantly occurring ones.
motoYam82 That's for sure, and hindsight is 20/20 after seeing the problem
Thanks!
Ivan, Nice ! I own a Subaru, vid might come in handy !
Cases of lean code by purge valves. or insufficient purge flow. Never lean and evap leak. Always something new.
Just had a Rio w lean codes caused by under reported air flow from faulty MAF.
I've never paid attention too the effect of the maf signal w vac. leak.
Exactly. If the code was "incorrect purge flow" then I would have gone for the purge valve right away...this one threw a curve ball for sure, since usually if you get a leak ode, then the system is working fine. And it actually was, until the car got hot lol
+motoYam82 I probably would have thrown a Maf at this one.
so the freeze frame was reporting correctly.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Great video as usual Ivan! I have been using mode 6 more and more for all this issues! Sometimes you let go little things that make the diagnosis go longer! We need to be profitable!
I think snap on lacks on this! Check this video of a OBD II tool that really decodes mode 6 and gives you a green - yellow and red on all monitors and components! th-cam.com/video/krrizI4fwkE/w-d-xo.html
The Escan-pro is great!!
Nice work
If the MAF sensor was bad both banks would have had high trim numbers. Great diagnostics anyway.
Am I wrong or does a 2.5 only have 1 bank?
I think both banks are actually bank 1 on this particular engine.
+vachon644 I think you're right. Brain fart from working too many hours.
Hey it's Thanksgiving take a few days off ;)
Pretty Cool fix...
When you upload a video is there an option to turn on/off the preview feature in the time status bar? It would make watching a lot quicker with it on.
I don't know what the preview feature is?
You hover over the progress bar and a small window follows showing snippets of the video at that time position. Since it also works behind the progress bar it's not only a preview feature it's really a scene finder. Sometimes it works and sometimes it don't, just like everything else on TH-cam it seems. Whenever it doesn't work, I get only a black preview window. This one is only popping up a time stamp for example here and not sure if I've ever noticed that before. I do miss my watched overlay notice which used to be loaded by cookies which often required the first TH-cam page to be reloaded before they started working correctly - they be history for the past week or so. Things are in flux as per usual, thanks for the bird day entertainment Ivan, another good one.
It would be nice to skip through the parts where you chisel out the rock into a disc and figure out it rolls.
Just kidding
Awesome
So the conclusion might be go for the P0457 first, a vacuumleak will have more inpact on the balancing of motormanagement
Nice vid. though
How do you replace that part?
how much money fixed this?
так это был клапан вентиляции бака неисправен? или что. а то я в английском не понимаю.
Так точно! :)
Brutal. Can't believe that wasn't the first thing you looked at, based on the two codes.
P0171= PCM yells out " Hey I think I may have a leak somewhere"
P0457= PCM yells out" Hey the evap system has a leak"
P0457 Diagnostics step 1-"When performing the leakage diagnosis of EVAP system, the purge control solenoid valve must operate normally. Therefore, mode Z is used to diagnose the purge control solenoid valve stuck open condition.
Very logical. I guess should have started the diagnosis with the EVAP leak then!
Logical yes, but as you know, it is very easy to point things out after the fact.
What scanner is that???
Snapon Verus. I was just looking it up too and found many versions.
Mann both my Subarus have the same problem
do you have a way I can reach you?
Send me a private message under the "About" tab!
Anyone else notice maf was 1.44 with engine off
Monday January 10 2022
Okay, that is interesting!
Vehicle:
2004 Subaru Forester X25 w/AT EJ25 engine stamp but no third numeral designator
Question:
Have you played with how to manually make the system run leaner?
Problem:
The car is running rich as hell noteable from the smell and the gauge dropping.
Discussion:
I am surprised how smooth it is running and how low the idle holds compared to if this was a carbureted engine running that rich at idle. There is noteable pressure coming through the oil filler cap but this maybe an indication of normal engine fatigue at 153000 miles with seemly all major components not overhauled. I want to be able to lean out my mixture to cleanup this overly rich running which obviously means they have intentionally set the computer range to run rich but reset the standard to appear as if the car is running correctly when any retard will tell you it is wastefully rich smelling and sickening despite all the cars computers and all the unnecessary complicated equipment designed to eliminate the alleged problems create worse smell now then back in the 70's through 90's without all the computer garbage that were minor problems in the first place when you didn't have so many fools on the road that were electromechanically solved and they also refined the fuel differently. They have actually socially made the people dumb and extraverted them to idolized computer garbage so bad is the situation that no one will recognise their senses and use them and correct the obvious problems of rich conditions and to learn how to run an engine leaner not richer!! It amazes me that when people are conditioned to be social blobs they will not recognize their senses or their intuition and will sell-out Real Tangible Goods and Sweat Blood Tears and Labor for Suck you Dry Berg cramming fake everything virtual into peoples heads at a high price.
Only one guy talks about the vapor operation in the engine although wrongfully talking about it as burning and admits it is cleaner and more fuel efficient but then cheats us by talking about power from the pressure wave is weaker without including the rest of the known properties of the air mass itself and the activities occurring inside a cylinder under various conditions. What is amazing is how lowered people have become that they dont realize how bad they are being lied to with obvious contradictions in their sensory capacity of the situation.
Diagnostic Equipment
Scan Tool:zurich8 hbf
{It tells me it can't communicate with the abs please give functional feedback}
I had evaporative emmision code, O2s1 heater circuit code, inlet air temperature code and after erasing it throws back icon lights for cat, O2S, EGR, EVP and a code for evaporative system and two other codes which I forgot.
Some Shops Diagnosis-
A printout from where ever the previous owner had it scanned for emissions indicated evaporative and 1 other code.
Subaru Onboard Diagnostic System-
I plugged the green activation diagnosis connectors together and the purge valve definitely cycles and so does the purge valve on the charcoal canister hearable and feelable as if the solenoids are at least working. I have seen from different peoples presentations that the valves could be leaking but I didn't see a pressure sensor in the one flow chart or visibly in line or at the canister so how does a leaking valve trip the computer strictly from the MAP SENSOR FEEDBACK? That seems too easy to throw off a code for more as one component if all pressures are only sensed through one MAP sensor despite a minimum of (4) devices going to affect manifold pressure let alone engine operating conditions. I have not correctly located the MAF versus the INLET AIR TEMPERATURE SENSOR and I did get an inlet temperature sensor code which if malfunctioning could obviously run the car rich even if it is warm depending on the logic of the computer system or if the computer has defaulted to some preset map as others have stated in their articles.
Correction Steps: I will have to clamp-off the purge hose and disconnect the purge solenoid connector and see how that effects the motor running, recheck the filler cap and check and clean the filler spout area and apply some dielectric grease{(2)brians mobile, 1)Scotty kilmer}
The filler cap doesn't necessarily look factory version but it does seem to work in the locking function.
Something was done in the fuel tank although uncertain what.
The canister and the whole fuel filler area looks like original by the fact the hose clamps look fairly rusted.
Questions:
How can I bypass the evaporative side of the computer circuit and still have the computer run the other functions since timing, fuel injection are controlled by a computer and there is no distributor gear to revert back to mechanical electromagnetic timing in most if not all new engines the inefficient complicated garbage they are when you compare complication, generic computer codes, the computer can default to maps and not read data from working components, there is no user access to computer function and programing for hardware upgrades, excessive price for toxic vapor emitting plastic cheap components, longevity of motors that warp or crack and cant be repaired because one time use design and metalurgy that doesn't allow for repairs and running low tension rings and as aluminum giving off aluminum toxicity directly into the ventilation but still despite lower weight as if that is the only concern and all the conveniences of platforms and unibody for manufacturers you can only get a lousy 30mpg despite fuel records into 2000mpg on track vehicles. I got 25 mpg out of a carbureted engine on a heavy car all cast iron with no computer garbage and limited electromechanical auxiliary systems timing distributor controlled and it was very smellable that I had much more room for improvement in fuel economy.
RANT: If people would awake out of the alpha mode induced from cell and FM waves and certain addatives in the gas and tap water as well as over-dozing on coffee and other toxic drugs.
so it would be set off by a pothole. On and off.
i love being first you rock ivan !
1st lol