The "Idiberug" Find (with Krister Vasshus)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ม.ค. 2023
- Krister Vasshus (University of Bergen) answers questions from Jackson Crawford's Patreon supporters about the "Idiberug" inscription and other astonishingly old runic inscriptions from the recent discovery in Ringerike, Norway. Recorded live on January 21, 2023.
Jackson Crawford, Ph.D.: Sharing real expertise in Norse language and myth with people hungry to learn, free of both ivory tower elitism and the agendas of self-appointed gurus. Visit jacksonwcrawford.com/ (includes bio and linked list of all videos).
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"The question doesn't have to be resolved if it can't be." I love and appreciate this statement. This is well practiced science and done respectfully! We're all excited to see more. Thank you for hosting this!
It would seem to me that archeologist would now be frantically turning over old stones in museums and at other older sites to see if they had missed such light 'scratchings' on the stones in other instances. Since the markings are so difficult to see, there might be other overlooked treasures.
I'm so glad you're doing this. I've been trying to follow these news as closely as possible.
This is so exciting! Thank you for sharing the interview with a scholar who is working with the excavation team.
Awesome interview, can't wait for the results of the continued analysis!
The teasing at the end is killing me... can't wait to read/see what he hinted at
Ida är ett kvinnonamn och en kortform av det forntyska namnet Iduberga, som är bildat av ordet id (flit). The name has an ancient Germanic etymology, according to which it means ‘industrious’ or ‘prosperous’. It derives from the Germanic root id, meaning "labor, work" (also found in "Iði").[1] Alternatively, it may be related to the name of the Old Norse goddess Iðunn.
i didnt know id meant flit but now that you mention it "jag ids inte" and "idogt arbete" can still be seen today sometimes although i guess younger people would never say that. its an example of a dying word.
Interesting interview. I've always tried to avoid joining any particular "camp" on the origin of the runic system, though I would agree with Krister's observation that a key reason for not simply adopting the Roman alphabet could have been an interest in emphasizing non-Romaness; i.e., "we want you to know that we have cool written language, like the Romans (and other people in the "Greater Mediterranean Sphere") do, but we also want you to know not actually Romans, so our writing looks different". I had a whole chapter in my Ph.D. thesis more than 20 years ago that touched on similar issues but ended up cut from the final draft for lack of space! 😅
It's worth mentioning that the runic script is most closely reminiscent of the Raetian alphabet used by the Raetian tribes of the Alpine region, who were related to the Etruscans and who adopted their alphabet from the latter, slightly modifying the letters to forms that which most closely resemble the eldar futhark. The Latin script was also adopted from Etruscan as is well known. That is why the Raetian theory is currently the strongest one, also due to the Raetians having control of the sources of rivers that were major trade routes between Italy, the Celtic areas and the Germanic areas in the North, a fact that can explain how the early Germanic tribes came to writing.
There are of course many questions that arise due to unique letters in runic for sounds that existed in Raetian and had corresponding letters, and the order of the alphabet which is completely unique.
Its the same motive for everyone in medieval Europe coming up with some far fetched story about how they are descended from the Trojans. Its a way of saying "We were there, but we're not Greek".
What a pleasure to see two academic minds working in unison!
This is fascinating, thank you both!
1800 years ago: "Bob waz ere", "abcde...", "assfdjksa"
Present day: hundreds of scientific papers.
I'm literally standing in front of the stone and it is amazing. Thank you for this great discussion! I've learned a lot
The order of the runes was probably important for how they were taught so it makes sense that it would be preserved through time.
It's still weird though that if the runic alphabet was indeed adopted and modified from the Raetian/Etruscan alphabets, then why change the ABC order that was there since the Phoenician alphabet?
My guess is that either the early Germanic tribes did not know there was a proper order to the letters, or that they devised their own order for better memorization in their own language, similarly to how the Brahmi script in India did not inherit the ABC order from Aramaic.
Also the boustrophedon (alternate writing direction) found on several early runes is very interesting because this is how early Greek and very early Latin was written, but by the 5th century BCE the writing direction in Greece and Italy was fixed left-to-right. So are the runes much older than we might think, or is the boustrophedon a local technique unrelated to the way the Greeks wrote?
This is all very fascinating.
What an incredibly captivating guest.
I think the inscription IDIBERUG is a referance to a specific farm, probably the birthplace of the person buried.
It is probably the farm Berger next to the farm Idd in Halden, by the swedish border.
Iddeberg would be an older version of the farm name.
It is by Iddefjord, the runes were carved by a moderately proficient / literate person.
I have been anticipating this for a while. exciting.
🖤 Thank you for your insights!
Thanks for this fascinating interview!
Thank you both. Very interesting!
Yes so good to hear interesting people talk about interesting things.
The best content ever, and more to come! Jackson and Krist thank you!
Fantastic interview! That was really informative and got me thinking of all the interesting possibilities!
Amazing stuff, thanks for sharing this. Im very new to this field and its fantastic to be able to hear real expert opinion and listen to the exchange between you both. Thanks you so much for making this happen.
Thanks for the update on this - and, off-topic, I just wanted to tell you that your translation of the Havamal is my absolute favorite - thank you for your hard work to bring us amateurs such great material to pore over!
So fascinating !
Thanx Doc for enabling us to dive into old norse culture in a scientific way 😎🤙
Great interview, as usual. I believe the reason you are so successful in putting forward and popularizing such an obscure topic as Old Norse (my dr ate is in Eng Lit and it's sometimes difficult for me to follow) is because you have a foot in both cultures, academic and popular. You are a highly sensitive advocate for the listener, always, as is not much the case in other such video series. Carry on!
This is gonna be a gooood year for rune news!
This was excellent! Thank you Jackson and Krister, I learned a lot. I wonder if they plan to inspect the stone with multi-spectral imaging or even high point density lidar? There are some incredible image processing tools that might tease out some extra info.
Great teaser trailer!
20 seconds in and already laughing! Been playing Jurassic World Evolution the last few days and just made me smile to hear you talk about it
I remind of the runic inscription of the elder kind in the so called italic peninsula, on "monte Sant'Angelo", in Puglia, left by the Langbards.
Mind blowing, twisting and boggling
Suggestion by layman person: one possible is, that that runestone is purposefully put text side down, with faint text. As if they didn't want anybody to see the text and who is buried there, and yet it was important to put name there. Perhaps he was in unusual way an important person.
incredibly interesting
Wow sick cliffhangers!! 😳
41:22 - In German, we have the same saying: Wasser auf die Mühle bekommen = grist to the mill (i.e. An advantage through somebody else's actions).
24:54 The Oostum Comb has a similar ᛒ on it.
Thank you for this fascinating conversation. Very much looking forward to more revelations about these objects and what scholars are thinking about the messages carved onto their surfaces. One further comment coming from personal experience: I have carved the names of my pets onto slabs of slate not as grave markers but as an act of ritual. The stones were placed with the writing side down, looking into the deposit/grave. I did this instinctively and under no outside direction. This position “felt” right and more “protected” this way. I knew that if the stone was placed carving side up it would more likely be damaged over time. Perhaps this sone was placed over this burial deposit in a similarly instinctive way. For me, placing it carved side down instilled the idea of longevity and, if perhaps in some long-lost future, someone digs up the garden and finds the stones, they may possibly have a better chance of reading it….of course, given our acid soil the bones will be long gone so they will be wondering what an “Oliver” and and “Oscar” were! 😊 PS… I was temped to write the names in Runes but thought that would really be confusing the archaeologists of 3250 CE.
Maybe someone had their learning to write session on a stone that was written on? Hope to hear more about the timeline for the runes. I am walking in that forrest 2000 years after an d thinking that all that things under the foot of mine is fabtastic! Very good video Jackson Crawford - go and see the stone all of you!
..heard the last part now, more people asked if its a learning prosess and so on.. what a stone. maybe from the wolf island in Tyrifjorden!
Some thought here too.
When i saw the runes in the photo in the news article I thought that e was an m because the lines looked like they were crossing instead of just converging. The doubled up B rune flat out confused me for about half a minute until i thought to myself maybe that's a B, and then it was nice to see the experts thought that's a B too after reading the article.
Can it be that Proto-Norse or late Germanic speakers of Scandinavia sometimes had to organize a funeral hastily, without a specialist of rune carving and/or adequate tools, so they put a gravestone on the corpse and wrote the name of the dead with whatever tools they had (knives for instance) onto it?
you don't want to ruin your knife on a stone when you have to use it, so you won't use it like a chisel
Veru interesting. Thank you. (And difficult to believe that Krister Vasshus isn't a native English speaker!)
Could the upside down Algiz rune represent the -z ending that was common in Proto-Germanic nouns?
Isn't Iðisi or Idisi a name for a kind of Goddesses? Something like in the Merseburg Incantations, though this artefact is much earlier dated. Super interesting though!
Thank you guys for the great interview!
That's a really good point that I hadn't connected! See Guus Kroonen's "Non-Indo-European root nouns in Germanic" for a discussion of idis "woman" as in the Old Saxon Heliand.
It's good to see that like 1000 years later crappy handwriting is confusing teachers. Some things never change. ;)
Also, what he said about how now they made a new discovery and have to look at prior materials? This is one reason why archaeologists almost always tell you to *leave it in the ground*. Do not dig out artifacts and take them with you bc they can only be excavated once and who knows what future techniques will be.
Theorizing: Possibly a stone a child was writing on to learn to write. If the person buried at the site is young it could be a keepsake from their parents.
I had a similar thought only in the opposite direction; that a surviving child wanted to make a parting gift to the cremated young adult ( a mother who died in childbirth?)… the two qualities of writing could be a remembered moment of a shared experience between the two. No way to prove, but we know this is a common and current human experience. Family members often add a note or object reflecting a shared experience into the burial of a loved one.
If the remains are those of a young person, maybe the stone tablet was their writing practice? A youth buried with their homework which had their name on it.
Since the sea in Oslo was 4 meters higher around the year 1000 then 700-800 years earlier the sea must have been 7-8 meters higher than now. Then this area may have been close to the sea and it makes sense that they ate seafood.
Seven months late, but it is worth noting the theonym "idhunn" is hypothesized to arise from a PN idi-unnthō (forgive me, I write from a phone), with the meaning 'ever granting'. Also Ivaldi is likewise thought to come from a PN Idiwald-. So at least in the realms of religion names incorporating the idi- element are common enough
I know nothing, so I hope my question is not too weird.
Is there visible evidence of a new carver of runes and an experienced carver?
Or using a right hand and a left handed made rune? Is there a 'typical' stone that is often used for making Rune carvings?
A question: the sandstone slab, was that material that was availble in the surroundings of the grave? (if not then it is for sure an important grave). And then there is also this: the placing of the rune letters (out of sight) and their quality, faint... it suggests the work of an untrained hand, as if someone was making an unauthorised tag. So, I'm thinking, a declaration of love by an illigitemate lover? Who wanted to comemmorate the passing of his beloved Idiberun/g? (could be all kind of things, but I'm a romantic soul).
Just based on an enlargement of the image, the rock looks like a quartzitic sandstone - quartz grains in a silica cement. In which case I'm not surprised that the engraver gave up once he was a few millimetres deep!
Interesting conversation. Guesswork from a layman, but could the unusual ‘b’ rune be a bind rune for two b’s - so; “Idibberug”?
@JacksonCrawford
Could these stones be practice slates? There are some stones and small slabs found in the Levant with light etchings of Paleo-hebrew characters made by a younger person. This could be a Nordic version of someone learning to write.
How much time elapsed between the proto-Germanic and proto-Norse periods?
Is it correct that the shape of the runes are limited by the practice of carving them into twigs with a knife? So no round shapes or horizontal lines...right?
It would certainly seem possible that there was an early runic alphabet that was influenced and modified by contact with other writing systems.
I can see what is meant by its hard to tell if its a G or N. especially since the word doesn't seem to been written with a straight line on the top or bottom. And if ya try and use either use the top or bottom as a reference for its orientation it will either look more like a G or N.
I'm not aware of any Slavic language attested in Europe before the 6th century, am I missing something? To my knowing, the Danube Basin and surrounding mountains as well as the northern shore of the Black Sea have been Germanic throughout late Antiquity, right? From the Textraxites through Durostorum until Sirmium and then northern Italy under Theodoric the Great, right?
I'm quite new to this channel, but just to check, someone's already done the "runestone cowboy" joke, right?
So about 10 months late and haven't finished the video yet, but the first carving at 24:41 looks to me personally like it spells NðIBÞIIRUG (with B and Þ as a bindrune.) Now I don't know much about proto-Germanic language structure, so it could just be gibberish, but is it possible that this is the spelling it says?
For a first century AD runic inscription, it wouldn't be surprising to see "eka" instead of "ek". That would have added weight to the dating. I suppose "ek" is still plausible, though. Or maybe an A rune could have been in the lost part?
Idbjørg is a name in Norwegian too it seems. But it seems rare.
Id means effort or work in Norwegian. Isn't id (or a related word) also the origin of Ida?
Yes, so it is plausible a femenine name id + bjorg, both feminine roots right?
Rare indeed, less than 4 in Norway today.
The first documented usage was apparently in 1908, I find that person in the transcribed archives (churchbooks and censuses) and only one more person with the same name, born in 1917. ;)
@@Aremeriel Seems to be at least one living from what I could find (hits on Facebook and phone number search).
There might be one or two more, impossible to tell.
But yes, very rare
@@danymann95 No idea. As he said in the video, you can't know ancient names from modern ones.
Maybe it's not even a name?
@@se6369 yeah, I found that one too, ssb doesn't state the numbers if less than 4. 😉
Cliffhanger ending. Looking forward to March.
Has the writer first tried out the stone with a needle before engraving it?
Is the B with extra pockets a BB?
Nope, it is a beebee-beebee.
I think the first slab shown is a contract
Maybe I misunderstood but, Björn is a somewhat common name in Swedish at least.
Many Norvegians have that name also 🙂
+ Danes
@@modernvikingnorway I thought so.
@@troelspeterroland6998 Yup, its and scandinavian name.
A bet for a name - here about a known person with that name some hundred years later
.Itta
Also Known As: "Berga", "Ida", "Idoberga", "Iduberga", "Itta", "Itte", "Iduberga of Metz", ""Iduberga."", "Iduberga van Nijvel", "Itta of Metz", "Itta of Metz / Itta van Nijvel", "Saint Itta von Metz", "Itta Von Swabia; Saint Itta"
Birthdate: cirka 592
Birthplace: Landen, Flemish Brabant, Flanders, Belgium
Death: Died 8 maj 652 in Nivelles, Walloon Region, Belgium
Could these inscriptions have been written by an educated adolescent?(im thinking the ages between 11-16yrs old) that the inscription is the name of the adolescent that wrote them for their parent that died? Obviously someone of noble stature that would have been taught and this was a way for the name of the child to be with the deceased mother or father to be with them for all time? Just a loose hypothesis.
Perhaps this was a student teacher ..and the student was not supposed to be educated as in the case of a slave or woman or religious reasons, so the work was hidden ( literally went to the grave) with the teacher??
Thank you so much for sharing actual findings of this, not the CNN blather, we all appreciate all you do and create!
So dating is the one thing he knows?
Could ᚠᚢᚦ be "fuð" (female genitalia)? Immature carver maybe?
Obviously the Latin and Scandinavian people both have heritage in the yamnaya and Proto-Indo-European people so sharing some parts of an alphabet makes sense but the runes themselves are obviously native to Scandinavia
I don't understand what cow boy 's tackle and music have to do with teutonic runes .
How about using AI to try and read the stone, or maybe this is already being done?
How would you like to use it?
@@materliliorum i dunno, use it to sweep the surface and maybe try and find traces of runic writing we cant discern with the naked eye.
@@eliasholenhannouch807 I think the key point is how to informatically define a carved spot. I'd be interested myself if someone had a suggestion
Brigand i think.
It looks like my comments are automatically deleted because of the links... :( // About "ᚠᚢᚦ/fuð" see "Bryggen_inscriptions" (B011 and B009) in the wikipedia and (there is a link in the article) Pütsepp, Kristina (2003). Kjærlighet på pinne: Vertshusinnskrifter fra norske middelalderbyer.. Oslo universitet. sid. 67-68 And that fuð it's not about futhark at all :) // By the way, has anyone ever tried to look for runic birch bark letters/manuscripts in Scandinavia or in northern Germany (like in Novgorod, Russia)?
The inscription indicates a healing spring!
J X B S A X
There was some kind of bathing pool!
LG
Looks like it's Idiberuȝ, no way is that ᛁᚧᛁᛒᛖᚱᚢᚵ or ᛁᚧᛁᛒᛖᚱᚢᚸ!
I subscribed so I bought the whole seat, but the way that piece of wood was hanging over my man’s head said I should have just bought the edge 🥸