Psychology of a Hero: BLACK WIDOW
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ม.ค. 2022
- Can someone actually get red out of their ledger? Can they repair their wrongs and find healing?
Licensed therapist Jonathan Decker and filmmaker Alan Seawright talk about Natasha Romanoff's (Black Widow's) journey to try to get red out of her ledger, as she moves from assassin to hero to healer. They discuss how we can each right some of the wrongs in our lives and make changes and amends. For Natasha it included becoming an Avenger, dedicating her life to helping people (like freeing the other widows, including her sister Yelena played absolutely brilliantly by Florence Pugh), and eventually finding peace with herself and giving her life. Thanks for making Alan cry again, ScarJo. And for giving him an opportunity to go toe-to-toe with David Harbour to compare their Russian accents and beards.
Support us!
Patreon: / cinematherapy
Merch: store.dftba.com/collections/c...
Internet Dads Popcorn: ctpopcorn.com
Cinema Therapy is:
Written by: Megan Seawright, Jonathan Decker and Alan Seawright
Produced by: Jonathan Decker, Megan Seawright & Alan Seawright
Edited by: Jenna Schaelling
Director of Photography: Bradley Olsen
English Transcription by: Anna Preis - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
"She wasn't at peace because she was gonna die; she was at peace and so it was okay to die." One minute in and I'm already crying. My coffee is going to be SO salty by the end of this video.
Same 😭
Ditto, Natasha's death scene made me sob buckets, and she was finally allowed to be vulnerable in her last moments.
God I cried my eyes out . I wasn't expecting me to cry 😭
I read this before the line was said and I still teared up
Joining the bandwagon
As a woman who can’t have children, I always took Natasha’s line about being a monster was less about her infertility, and more about the fact that in a way, some of her humanity was taken from her in the form of physical trauma, including the surgery and emotional trauma to keep her from feeling compassion for others. Her becoming a monster was the cumulative effect of her troubled early life, and getting sterilized was just one part of that: one priority and choice that was taken away from her
Word. That's exactly what I got too. She's not a monster because she can't have kids. She's a monster because one of the ways her captors went about making her feel unfazed about killing people was a terrible thing to go through.
I think its also because she tries to fail, she tries to avoid graduating. She gets caught and then manipulated into graduating. Once she's out she feels she should've done more, she never should've given in even though its not her fault. She spent her whole life trying to get the red out of her ledger but to her this is the one thing she cant undo, the one piece of training she cant use for good. I wish they rephrased the line but its definitely deeper than "im a monster bc im sterile"
I always felt it was that even though she was conditioned to follow their orders, she chose to prevent herself from ever having kids so that _she could be better at killing._ Kind of fucked up…
@@mr.stuffdoer8483 she tried to fail so she wouldn't graduate so she wouldn't be sterilised though, she never chose to not be able to have kids
THANK YOU
When she said this to him, "I don't judge people on their worst mistakes." I felt that as a line he said to her when he 'made a different call' and she is echoing it back to him when he is drowning in his own guilt and self-disgust.
I thought so too...
Same
I had that same thought. How the line was delivered (Scar Jo is such a great actress), it gave me a strong impression she was repeating something meaningful he once said to her.
That should've been set up (or be the set up), almost like they were going to make a movie about their past...
I love the idea that this is almost the same conversation but reversed.
I remember being kinda surprised when I found out people read the scene as "I can't have kids ergo monster" because immediately before that she admitted killing became easier. She's not saying she's a monster because she can't have kids, she feels like a monster because the "red" she did came easily.
I read it that way as well.
This. She is monster for killing, not a lack of uterus...
Those are the same people who say anakins turn to the dark side came out of no where...
They don't watch the whole movie or pay attention or something
Banner considers himself a monster because his anger gets the better of him and he lashes out in rage.
Natasha saw herself as a monster not because of being sterilized, not physically at least. That operation creates a sick ‘freedom’ that allows her to manipulate and kill without remorse. That is why she called herself a monster. In the end, which is more monstrous, uncontrolled rage or cold calculation?
i can totally see how ppl saw it that way, but i don't think that's how it was intended, definitely how it came across tbh
My reading of the "Still think you're the only monster on the team" was always the same as Alan's. It's definetely not written well, but I never got "I can't have kids so I'm a monster" vibes, I always got "I'm an incredibly efficient killing machine that has had every emotional tie to humanity ripped out of me, metaphorically and physically" vibes.
Same. And I am a woman who can not have kids. it never occurred to me to be offended by her statements in that movie. i was surprised when i found out years later how many people found that to be controversial. i thought it was pretty obvious. I think Alan is right, there should have been just slightly more dialogue put in to ensure it was clear to everyone.
Same (i'm female, too). I also caught its bad timing, tho.
Same. I never assumed or even saw that they could be referring to her fertility making her a monster until watching this, but I can see how it would be easy to see it that way and how many could be really hurt.
The Red Room flashbacks also hint at the kill someone you care about as a final test of loyalty trope. That would have put the "I'm a monster" line in perfect context.
I agree. I didn’t think she was saying that because she can’t have kids she’s a monster, but that she was made into a monster through having anything that could taken away the life they gave her away. For her, having a kid would be an escape, so they took it away, and it was traumatic and it made her feel like she would never be normal or never have any way to get out.
"I don't judge people on the worst mistakes."
"Maybe, you should"
"You didn't"
such an underrated dialouge
This line in this scene chokes me up every time I see it.
Just to add in 25:50 "And even though, they're gone..."
This hits harder knowing Yelena was snapped too
@@alcorgarcia619 For how many times that I watched this movie, I never focused on that line until I watched this video. Makes Nat's jump sadder. I still can't accept she's dead, she's so pure. One of the best characters in the MCU, and no one can replicate her
thanks for making the inaudible visible.
and that is exactly why hero's not automatically executing the bad guys is a good thing. clint gave nat a chance to have a soul. in endgame she re payed the shit out of it.
I always believed the reason we saw her with the male gaze at first was because we first meet her while she's working a mark. Her mark was Tony and she knew exactly how to play the player. Since that movie was from Tony's point of view, it probably feels like she wasn't well represented since she essentially played the audience right along with Tony by being so much more than people expected her to be.
Black Widow is an assassin/ spy who specializes in giving people exactly what they want to see so they'll do what she wants. Of course she seems understated until she's free to work her own angles. That's her whole approach to subterfuge in a nutshell.
I'm beginning to think not many people noticed that because they expected her to be a hero first and an operative second - when she's really the exact opposite. Black Widow was a badass long before the scene with Loki framed her as a superhero as well as a super-skilled agent. Knowing that changes how you see her character entirely.
Respect to the actress for understanding the role so well that she did the under-the-radar act well enough that even the audience bought into it. That's just as badass as her character!
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the widows meant to be extremely attractive for that purpose as well? Their sex appeal lures in powerful men and then use that appeal to catch them off guard or distract them so as to make their mission that much easier to accomplish. I don't think it's a coincidence that every widow we've seen has been a complete smoke show super model. Which is why they're all women, male spy's wouldn't be able to do that nearly as easily. it's easier to be caught with your pants down if all you can think about is getting your pants down *wink* *wink*.
The Black Widow, one of the most underrated characters in the MCU. Her arc is one of the most complete, and her sacrifice was noble, she was willing to give up her life for the good of the universe. I wish we had seen more of her as she was an integral part of The Avengers and they used her as a throwaway character. Her death was done properly, but I wish she had survived, I felt Clint’s pain when he lost her because she was like a sister to him, it was unbearable to see her die.
I am what I call "passively suicidal". When death comes, I"ll welcome it.
But I took both vaccine doses, wash my hands, wear a mask, social distancing, etc. because I don't want to be a channel to hurt others.
If I had the chance to do one magnificent gesture to save all humanity, yeah, I'd jump too.
I don't think its right though. It's too simple. Better? Tell Red Skull his rules are not my rules and TAKE the Soul Stone.
And if anyone says "that's the rule" ... who told you that's the rule? Red Skull, you trust Red Skull to tell you the truth?
It always drives me crazy when people in stories take advice from someone they KNOW is untrustworthy.
@@veramae4098 Never thought about it that way, you have a valid point.
@@veramae4098 praying for you!
Her death was one of the most heartbreaking character deaths imo. It was so devastating to me because her sacrifice was necessary but so unfair. I don't care what harsh critics of the MCU say, the writing so far as character arcs go was beautiful.
@@lilscenechick1995 Her death stroke really hard in the cinema theater. I saw Tony's death coming from faaaar away so I found it baddass but not peculiarly emotional. But I really couldn't anticipate who would die between Natasha and Clint, and I wanted so much both of them to live. It was devastating. I hate she doesn't have the same funerals at the end.
I always wondered why Natasha never got as big of a send off as Tony did. Sure, he was their leader, but she literally sacrificed herself to undo Thano's snap.
It didn't sit right with me as she was leading the left over Avengers that whole time. I think Hawkeye is kinda indicating towards resolving that, if Barton's dialogue is anything to go by.
History, pretty much.
Robert Downey Jr./IronMan put it's foot on the door for the MCU, was pretty much the first superhero movie to do things the way we do them today (compared to the previous Spider-Man/Xmen movies), took a gamble on a very controversial actor at the time.
Natasha/Scarlett Widow, meanwhile, was introduced as a side character on arguably the worst IronMan movie and a good contender for the worst sequel in the MCU, having little character by then other than "She's competent, sassy and sexy".
Did she deserve more? Absolutely.
But after ten years, it was clear which character had more buildup across the MCU.
Still pissed about that
@@dragonraizen She still deserved better. At least Hawkeye did a little bit to honor her. But arguably still not enough.
Oh man! I totally agree!! In Infinity War they kept making such a point about one life sacrificed is a loss, and then Natasha finally makes the sacrifice that was needed and everybody was like, ehh, ok
I'll always love how Thanos/Gamora and Natashia/Barton were opposites. Thanos fought to throw Gamora off the ledge. Nat and Barton fought to throw themselves off the ledge. That's what Gamora meant when she said 'This isn't love'
Very true...
Exactly! Gamora says in the first Guardians movie "I'd be honored to die among my friends" and Thanos ripped her away from them against her will. Whereas Nat died in the presence of her best friend knowing she had saved the others
@@madisonwhovian943 Another apt observation. Nice
I couldn’t have said it better, her sacrifice was selfless, while Gamora’s was forced upon her by a selfish fuck who was only focused on the task at hand. It was so painful seeing Clint’s heartbreak when she pushed herself off his grasp with her last words to him being “let me go.” She was the true embodiment of what it meant to be an Avenger, she was the best of them.
Which is exactly why Thanos shouldn't have been able to get the soul stone. It had to be traded for "that which you love"...Thanos was so blinded by his own narcissistic delusions that he was incapable of love!
I always loved the Loki scene. He had a thousand years more practice at manipulation than her and it took her what twenty or thirty minutes to get the information out of it. I also always loved how she always called her torture sessions, interrogations. She is fully aware of what she is doing and knows the other might not get it even if she told them straight to their faces. It's the classic "I'm not stuck in a room with you, you are stuck in a room with me" moment.
Well...we forget what happens afterwards. Maybe Loki was the better manipulator.
@@handtomouth4690 well she was too late to figure it all out tho. But Loki was still surprised by her reverse manipulation skills because he thought humans to be dumb and helpless who need saving(as he saw in Thor 1 when he was fighting Thor by sending the beast but Mlojnir got back to him and he did save the people). Which is not the case at all coz a human lady who doesn't have any superhuman strength or a genius mind can trick him (only a trained killer😏), the literal God of MISCHIEF.
I feel like a line was missing in that Age of Ultron scene too. If not, a few words could have easily changed the context of that line.
“They did everything they could to make me into a killing machine. Do you still think you’re the only monster on the team?”
Even like her adding a "and i let it happen" to the end of the sterilization part and then the "you think your the only monster" line because i think at that point Natasha blames herself. She tried to flunk to avoid graduating and got caught and manipulated. Once she got out and cleared her head im sure she blamed herself for a long time
@@reh2157 yes everyone is seeing the sterlie part but not that she was a ruthless assassin whos probably killed many innocent children and kids due to being "brainwashed" , similar to bruce when he becomes the hulk, which we see in age of ultron when bruce as the hulk sees the damage hes done and all the fear and saddness he sees in the people he sees the impact and if you notice hulk even sheds a tear before tony knocks him out
Because you can't read between the lines? Or are people just eager to jump on the opportunity to call people sexist?
@@handtomouth4690 maybe a little of both
I read it differently. I read it as her genuinely thinking that she is broken and a monster. Not just because of being infertile but also because of that. But I never took it as this being the views of the showrunners but rather this being yet another proof of how broken she trully was, thinking that she was at fault for everything that was done to her, thinking that redemption wasn't possible for her, etc. I think this scene is just here to show she's hit rock bottom.
Natasha paved the way for other female super heroes to take the spotlight and show generations of little girls that they are powerful.
Agreed, Natasha was always my role model, and she shows young girls that you can be a strong woman, on par with the guys.
this comment forgets the women who came before her and did exactly that, she might be important but by no means is she first.
Agreed. Rey "Palpatine" "Skywalker" could never...
So Wonder Woman, Captain/Ms Marvel, the Invisible Girl, don't matter. Nice.
@@griffenspellblade3563 nope because black widow is bigger than all of them. They are irrelevant compared to her.
I always loved how Natasha doesn’t become a bitter, closed-off, heartbroken victim because of her past. She becomes a hero and healer, and she has so much compassion and warmth inside despite all she’s been through, and put others through. It’s just amazing to see a traumatized character grow into someone good rather than fall apart.
“We tell stories of great people so that we remember that we may also be great” - not an exact quote, but it was flavor text from a collectible card game so not exactly the usual source of wisdom.
That itself was likely a paraphrase from Longfellow’s “A Psalm of Life”:
“Lives of great men all remind us./We can make our lives sublime.“
It's not what you've been through, but the choices you make that define you.
EXACTLY! I think that's why I really loved Black widow as a character. By what you said it reminds me of a character called "Inej Ghafa" from a book called as "Six of crows". She also went through a really traumatic past but despite that she never lost faith in others. She's an assasin too which made me love her even more♡
I think that's the absolute best summary of her that I've ever heard, Big Papa Mango; she takes all the good out of all the bad things that happened to her, and turns it into good for others.
I think a big part of the reason Natasha doesn't become that kind of victim is because she's already gone through so much horrific trauma in her life. She knows how to deal with it, at least to some extent. Tony, Barton, Thor, Banner ... they're going through their worst traumas in the movies. That's what allows her to be a healer, at least to some of them. It's how Banner/Hulk helped Thor; he'd been through his trauma and both Natasha and Thor helped him.
29:19 a little detail I noticed, Clint drops his bow and runs and while this could be just him dropping weight to run faster I think it could also be him leaving something for Natasha to remember him by if he was successful in sacrificing himself
I thought so too. And also, he's leaving her an extra weapong to defend herself if necessary.
Also also, it is his one defining symbol - he is dropping "himself". Good catch.
Natasha considered herself a tool used by others, mostly as a weapon to assassinate or destroy, which she tried to rebel against many times unsuccessfully. Her sacrifice is poetic, because she literally made herself into the perfect object to be used by and for her family, and she gave not her skills or physicality or mind or even her life, but the purest part of herself untouched by all the darkness in her life: her soul. And it was not a weapon, it was a jewel.
Damn this got me in my feels
Damn you slayed that thb
I read this just as the music was swelling after she'd fallen and oof 😭 well said
The thing I like about the scene with Loki is how clear it is that he was also talking about himself without realizing it.
Let's 👏 talk 👏 about 👏 this 👏
Yes, please, can we? ‘Cause I’m a little lost, myself. 😅
@@FREAKOFNATURE-mb8oo 😂
@@RiskoPlexus Visually, the link is there when Loki’s reflection is next to Nat’s in the window. But if you’ve seen Loki the series, a lot of what he says to Nat is pretty roughly correlated to what Mobius says to the Loki 2012 variant in episode 1 when they’re shoehorning seven years of character development into one episode-long flashback sequence.
Yeah he's definitely projecting lol
I really feel like part of Loki's question "can you wipe out that much red?" Is a little bit of him projecting on his own belief that since he's a Jotun, as well as not Odin's favorite he can't be an Asgardian anymore.
Ohhh good observation
That’s the vibe I got too
i never thought of that before wow
Oh 100% it was projection. That whole scene I think was. Because Loki usually isn't a stupid guy, he can tell if someone is trying to pull one over on him. But he missed that with her and I think she pushed because she knew it was setting him off. And he fell right for it.
Also I think Natasha being honest with him was her reading him as wanting someone to be honest with him. Especially after he found out the truth about himself.
Alan is such a wonderfully sensitive man, and it always makes me feel better knowing that I’m not the only one who tears up and cries during movies. Thank you to you both for being willing to bare your souls and share your sensitivity with us.
Scenes from movies that WRECK me:
- Quill losing Yondu (GOTG 2)
- Peggy's dementia (CA: Civil War )
-Thor's "I'm still worthy" moment,
Natasha's death,
THE PORTALS SCENE,
Tony's death (Avengers: Endgame).
[Not MCU, but honorable mention for the "My friends, you bow to no one" moment toward the end of Lord of the Rings: Return of the King].
I can GUARANTEE you, that I am STILL either quietly weeping, or a blubbering, sobbing mess for each of those scenes. Every. Single. Time.
I absolutely blame movies for afflicting me with “Compassion-crying-itis” aka I see someone crying and it makes me cry or gets me choked up. I became Ken and was like, “Alan is… me?!” 😂
Going to put this out there -- I really hope that ScarJo and any of the writers that worked on Nat's story watch this video. Generally speaking as a writer, when someone spends this much time and effort into analyzing what you've put out there and come away as a net positive, that feels extremely validating.
The scene where she is interrogating Loki represents Black Widow's special skill which is master manipulation, the fact that she can trick Loki god of tricksters is impressive and the scene is underrated for how amazing she is as a character.
She facilitates people's slippery slope of self-inflatation - he agitates their slippery slope of self-deflation. They are both skilled manipulators and this skill is carved from a great fear about themselves they are respectively very aware of.
@@sodafeet they really are I just hate that most folks aren't aware she has powers outside of hand to hand combat
It's why she has such a difficult time with the Hulk, he's got *one* emotion and that's anger. She can't manipulate someone when all they care about is tearing everything apart.
My favourite part of that is how absolutely and totally she played Loki where he just breaks his games and is just straight "Wait what just happened".
She mostly used Lokis own arrogance against him. He just saw her as a lowly mortal human. But she was more cunning than even he was.
Widow's death in End Game absolutely shattered my heart. Scarlett is massively underrated.
Speaking to the "I'm a monster" line, I always thought it spoke to self loathing, a big part of her self image.
yeah like Banner said he's a danger to everyone, and in her eyes, she's a danger to everyone too.
7:03 I love it in Hawkeye when Kate asks him "Best shot you took?" and he responds, "The one I didn't take. ...I just had this feeling that she wanted out" when talking about Natasha. You can tell that he truly just loves and cares for her so deeply... I love their friendship so much PLEASE *cries in MCU*
The scene in which Black Widow tells her sister "It was real to me too." Man. That hits deep.
There's a beautiful chapter in Lord of the Rings: Return of the King that talks about the mark of a true King is being a healer. Aragorn wasn't completely accepted as king after he won the battle, he was completely accepted as king after he came back and helped to heal the wounded. I kept thinking about this in connection with Natasha: she became a complete hero when she became a healer.
Yes! The King will come with healing hands 💕
@@sarahogborn8024 the Jesus metaphor gets really confusing since Gandalf is the one that “dies” and returns.
It is definitely not a Jesus metaphor! Tolkien greatly disliked allegory and stated many times that his story was not meant to be taken allegorical in any way. Well I think his faith undoubtedly came through in his writing, I don’t think that Aragorn is meant to be taken as a “Jesus” figure. As a Christian, I do enjoy finding those little things through the text, but I try not to read into that greatly as I don’t think that’s the goal of the story! I just love that quote from ROTK “The King will come with healing hands”; a lovely reminder that a leader is one who heals 💕
Yes 😭
That is so beautiful. Thanks for sharing
I would love to see a video focusing on Black Widow and Hawkeye’s friendship, it is an excellent example of a platonic friendship that is healthy and extremely loving. And you could do some on her friendships with the other men in Avengers probably in that same video but I think those kind of relationships deserved to be celebrated because we don’t see them done well very often, especially not in American cinema
YES, this is super important. i know people do ship those characters together romantically but their platonic canon relationship in the MCU is no less meaningful for not being romantic, but best friends. they have so much history and depth created by years of trust and faith in each other as good people, despite the bad things they have done in the past. even at vormir, they both remember the things they have done that they feel guilty about, but see each other as better than themselves and more worthy of surviving. it's a testament to the decade of storytelling invested in clint & natasha (who never even got their own movies) that we, the audience, believe in their struggle to sacrifice themselves to save the other at vormir. i think it's really beautiful.
Tbh I also would love the romantic part but both would be fine
This. A million times this. One of my favorite things about the MCU is the strong friendship between them. No jealousy, Hawkeyes wife loves having her around. It's just beautiful.
Agreed
@@AmandaStapley when in hawkeye he called his youngest child "nate" /nat after her i teared up because his other two kids called her aunt nat in age of ultron
It's so encouraging to hear another therapist acknowledge that there are times that they have thought they were helping and were unintentionally harmful. As a therapist I'm constantly afraid of doing unintentional harm to my clients
"She wasn't at peace because she was gonna die; she was at peace and so it was okay to die."
---
This was exactly my thoughts (not in the same words) when I was watching the scene in Endgame. I was so worried that they would let Hawkeye take the fall because Hawkeye had not completed his atonement, he is still very heavy with guilt and I think Natasha knew that.
My read on the "I'm a monster" scene is that its not referring to her infertility, but rather to how it came to be; she says that the sterilization is like the "graduating" ceremony and for her getting sterilized is sort of a symbol of what made her that monster, like the final step in the grooming process that pushed her over the edge.
Yeah but they could have written the dialogue differently
My read on it is that Joss Whedon is a woman hating asshole, but that works too.
@@elenachristian9860 her calling herself a "monster" was referring to her killing without minding, because having a family would make an assassin soft. This was always clear to me. She only added that bit that she couldn't have kids to show he wasn't alone and she was in for the relationship even despite this.
@@carolinpurayidom4570 Oh, yes, but lets be honest: Age of Ultron was rough in general.
I really think that she meant herself (seemingly from her facial expression and her tone) condoning her sterilization and making herself a better assassin through it (that line of thinking she seemingly adopted)made her a monster
12:00 I agree with how they view the "I'm a monster scene", but I'd like to present a different view:
Banner is saying "I'm not human. I can't have humane things, I'm resigned to a life of being inhumane"
Natasha counters by identifying herself, as well, as inhumane. As they stated, she's also saying "I'm an assassin who received cirurgical intervention to make me more disconnected and efficient at killing things. I'm just as inhumane."
What this is doing is showing how she identifies who she is by the trauma that was inflicted upon her: "Inhumane things were done to me so I could do inhumane things upon others, therefore I'm a monster too". It ties back to her trying to take the responsability of "clearing her ledger" - she's a horrible person, barely more than a killing machine, until she can do so (in her own view).
Hey, much as I loathe to ask, give this a thumbs up if you'd like Mr. Cinema and Mr. Therapy to read it.
Alan here, Mr. Cinema is my father.
Solid explanation!
Alan Cinema and Johnathan Therapy. I like it. I’ve just been calling them the internet therapy dads.
This is exactly how I understood that scene
This is the first time I've heard of the controversy about the dialog in that scene. I always interpreted it in the way you and the guys did. She's not a monster because she couldn't have kids. They made her a monster and took away one of the most powerful ways she's could revert on them.
@@CinemaTherapyShow Heeey! Is that a Finding Nemo reference I spot? ;)
Florence Pugh is actually an insanely good actor. Like I mean fantastic. The whole breath and then filling the cheeks and blowing out during the dinner scene. Like she is overwhelmed with emotion. Her acting is literally off the charts.
I thought "do you still think you're the only monster on the team?" was just Natasha opening up about how SHE felt about herself, how she saw herself. It just made the scene more heartbreaking for me, because *nearly every woman I know has been convinced,* or at the very least half-convinced, *that they're a monster,* or a freak, or that there's "something wrong with them."
To hear a woman, who was groomed through abuse to become both a slave and an assassin, call herself a monster... to me, it was one of the most realistic things about the movie. I'm just so used to hearing things like that from the women in my life, even the ones who haven't been abused, that I didn't connect it to the line before. I suppose I'm so isolated, from that archaic concept of femininity, that drawing such a connection never occurred to me.
And I need to work on that, because that archaic concept of femininity is one of the sources of my friends' and relatives' pain.
As a woman who can't bare children, I always took that monster line, not as her calling herself one because she can't have kids, but because killing was easier for her because she can't.
That's what the context spoke to me, anyways.
I like that thought process
That’s how I read it too. Especially after the ‘forced romance’ with Bruce and her entire scenes where she says exactly that.
Same!
This was my exact read on it. Without saying the exact words, I felt she was communicating that she at one point had wanted children very much. The fact that they took that away from her so brutally was the final push she needed to become what they wanted her to become because it almost felt like, she had nothing else to lose, and in her mind nothing to gain, so why not become a killing machine, or a monster?
Me too!
The way Jonathan explained guilt really stuck with me, you can be guilty of an action - that’s your conscience leading you to resolve that- but to be guilty of being yourself, alive, what was done to you isn’t helpful and is hurtful… love you guyyyyyyssssss
So glad it helps!
this episode is so quotable istg
I don't know if anyone is still monitoring this, but as a veteran, I'm literally crying watching this. I was instrumental in a way I wish I wasn't in things I wasn't in control of. The burden is inexplicable
This video came at the perfect timing. I am currently writing a Bachelor thesis about female representation in the MCU and Black Widow in particular. The input on atonement and her character arc really helps a lot. Now there's a TH-cam video part of the bibliography.
I love how shocked and confused Loki looks when Natasha outwits him. He looks like he thought it was impossible
Her arc is so powerful and I have always connected to it. The ability to form connections in the worst of circumstances, engaging with the past and trying to find new family.
Agreed, I love how Natasha starts off as detached and aloof, but then slowly starts to open up to the Avengers, and considers them to be found family.
@@trinaq Absolutely. She has always felt like a great example of unpicking the aloof action girl trope. Stoicism doesn't mean heartless. The greatest pleasure has been seeing more and more of Johansson's skill as an actor. She's my favourite character in End Game for seeing her as a leader.
Romanov and Barton are the best relationship on the screen. Period. I have always loved them, their banter, their love for each other, and the bone deep reapect.
I would argue with Steve being her closest relationship. It was clearly Clint and the fact that they were so close and loved each other so much is what makes her death all the more impactful to me.
Their bond of trust and friendship was formed over years of working together - long before they ever knew the rest of the Avengers - and risking their lives for each other. They are family in everything but blood. The fact that she - aside from Fury - was the only one to know about his wife and children, children who even call her "auntie Nat" and that he and his wife chose to name their child in her honor are clear indicators of this. And we clearly see how much Clint struggles with her death in "Hawkeye".
I would really love it, if you did an episode on Clint.
Agreed! She was friends with Steve, but Clint was her BEST friend. And a Clint episode would be awesome!
A lot of people say that Natasha and Bruce were out of nowhere. But that’s how it happened sometimes. I really liked them together.
The line about her being a monster. I never thought of it that way. My brain literally said “oh she’s a killer, she’s calling herself a monster”. I was super taken aback at how people took it.
People see things differently. Watching that scene I see y people took it that way. Really made me uncomfortable
I will always be biased against her and bruce together because I'm such a fan of her and bucky together (they're a thing in the comics, it's really sweet). speaking of which he's had similar lines in the mcu because of pretty much the exact same reason. I can agree the dialogue is a bit clunky but I don't get how anyone can actually just totally miss what they were going for.
@@HPGIRL1109 Black Widow and Winter Soldier are really similar. Brainwashed assassins trying to redeem themselves.
Natasha and Bruce as a couple makes about as much sense as Natasha and Steve as friends. She spends a lot of time with them through work and that includes a lot of downtime. Since she was the one that contacted Bruce while he was hiding, I imagine she's also the one that maintains contact when he needs to lie low.
Bruce's greatest onscreen (platonic) chemistry is probably Tony because of nerd-boi shenanigans, but Nat is most likely the one he actually spends the most time with.
it should have been set up more. it feel so forced and cringe in ultron. it's good in theory though
Natasha and Bucky's character had a lot in common. They've been brainwashed to be a weapon, a killing machine, their hands wiped liters of blood, marked their knives at different lives, but they were willing to mend a tear. The difference is, Nat's character arc has come to a period while Bucky's arc is still unfolding. I can't wait for his story to be told. I hope in the future, you guys will make a Bucky video. He's one of my favorite characters in the MCU (him, Wanda, and Nat 💜)
I never connected those parallels, thanks for that! :>
Bucky is due a video; but, as stated his arc isn't over yet. They could do an episode on him as a survivor of turuma but it's really in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier Disney+ show that we really start to know Bucky Barnes as more then just The Winter Soldier: plot device for Captain America.
That's the reason that they so bonded through their trauma. They fell in love in the comics despite hydra taking away their choice. And hydra took that as well when they found out about them
@@ThashniNaidoo it was a disappointment for me when MCU didn’t push through their story. I think there are so much to flesh out in their romance
@@klawis It was for me too. I was obsessed by the one single scene they gave where she told him that you could atleast remember me 😭. I wish there was more of that.
I wanna see a video of Yelena and how she deals with grief. The lose of her childhood and family. I'd love to see how she's finding herself for the first time.
Hawkeye was a bowlful of grief
I still remember how I went to the cinema three times for Avengers Endgame and I cried all those three times at the part where Natasha let herself go. And now, I cried again at that exact moment because, it hurts more when you have had the time to process and think about each word and every action being taken to reach that stage. I love what Alan had said about that part, how her coming to peace with her own heart and self has made death the good place to end, even if she should have been able to live on. She could make this choice because she has lived to the fullest, to the best capability of her and she, despite many regrets, can finally let go. Natasha is a brilliantly written character with the most memorable character arc in MCU. Most people remember the sacrifice of Iron Man in the Endgame as he was an icon of this universe, but the death that actually hurts me the most was Natasha's, because it resonates with me more. Tony Stark has always been a hero, even if many of his life choices were questionable, he was made to be a hero. Natasha wasn't, was actually designed to be a killing machine with all the most intimate and humane parts of her being taken away, but she took ownership of her own life again when someone was willing to see the good in her. She was born a normal girl, raised to be a monster, and died as the one person who just wanted to do good for the world.
Word
"I don't judge people on their worst mistake." As an addiction counselor, this is the definitive act on non-judgmental gesture or behavior towards others, something that we all, individually and collectively as a community, are still finding so hard to achieve. If we can actualize this level of commitment to seeing the person behind every circumstance, letting go will be much easier.
We don't have to have an opinion or make a judgement on anything. It's OK, in fact in a complex universe, its NECESSARY to let things go, let it be unresolved.
I have always loved how Natasha plays into whatever weakness the enemy presumes of her to obtain the information she needs, only to turn it around on the , THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION!
What I also loved about that line, is that it's something Agent Coulson said in Thor. To me, it shows that they worked together long enough to pick up on each others' lines when working with civilians are targets-- which made his death, and her reaction, a bit more poignant in Avengers. (Plus they both say it with such sincerity and bad-assedness that you just feel how in control they are.)
Dismantling toxic masculinity one beautiful tear at a time. I love that you both are brave, strong, and secure enough to express your authentic emotions in your videos.
Totally agree!
this is the most reasonable use of the phrase "dismantling toxic masculinity" i've ever seen on the internet
i cried like a bitch
I love Natasha because she is so unexpectedly powerful. Whenever they didn’t have a plan, SHE was the plan. Definitely deserves more love, from the team, the franchise, the fans, everyone
This reminds me of something I always try to remember: "Anger is like drinking poison and hoping the other person dies."
I squealed when you showed the Zuko "That's rough buddy" moment 😂 Would you consider doing a video on his redemption arch?
Me too! I would love an episode on the last airbender!
Yes, please!! 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
They’ve said that they’re not doing series rn. It takes them too long 🤷🏻♀️
@@chloewilliams1702 they could just look at his particular growth arc, no need to fully cover the entire series... Zuko is well worth looking at-- "Why am i so bad at being good?!" --pretty amazing character, one of my all time favorite people, Because of his growth & capacity🔥
I was looking in the comments for this! Yes!!!!
My understanding of Natasha's "monster" comment is simply that she feels like a monster. She's had everything taken away from her and all she knows is a life of violence. Also, as a man, I can't ever really know what it's like to lose the ability to be a mother but I can't imagine she's the first woman to feel that way about sterility. I suspect it was an attempt to voice those feelings, despite the unfortunate way it came out.
Her situation reminds me of something in 12 step programs call “living amends”. The idea is that while under the influence of addiction you made mistakes and hurt people along the way, and you can’t always make direct amends with those people, but you have to learn to forgive yourself, and you do so by living your life each day with the goal of being the best person you can be.
I am a woman and i've never had any problem with that 'controversial' scene, I always thought she was calling herself a monster because of the amount of pain and suffering she has caused other people and she feels guilty for it
Me too. This is the first time hearing that the scene was "controversial" 🤨
I assume neither of you are unable to have kids. I think that many many people reduce women to their reproductive system. I had people suggest that having kids might cure my depression, so, yeah. I get how some people might feel triggered by that way of putting things. I can see how people could see the only human value a woman has is being a mother.
@@demynee1679 I can't have kids I have known since I was 16 and I never took that line ro mean she was a monster because she could not have kids but that they made her monster AND took away her right to have kids.
Same!
dunno why people use gender on the the internet to act like some spokessperson for a large group of people or to make their own opinion sound more credible. Yes, I'm a "woman" too, you dont speak for me, and I gotta agree with them here.
I wasn't a fan of what she said in that context. *had it been..* _"I'm a monster because I'm a trained killer who's taken the lives of so many innocent people"_ and made it about her guilt over that, I wouldn't have seen anything wrong with it but they made the focus being her infertility. murder will always be worse then just not having kids. also her counterpoint seems kind of weak to bruce's, someone who essentially turns into a Big Green Rage Monster that loses his sanity, and can't control his actions or who he hurts in this state.
"Forgive yourself for not knowing what you know now before you knew it." Powerful!
She really has a beautiful story when you look at it. My only "disappointment" is the missed opportunity to not have her and Bucky have more interactions. Bucky and Nat have so much in common especially where Bucky was in the Disney+ show. I think she really could have helped him out because he views himself as a monster as well.
Jon, your explanation about guilt just hit me. Not about trauma, but about ADHD. I hold so much guilt about not being able to change enough for others. But you just made me realize that there is only so much I *can* change, and I don't need to feel guilt for something I can't change. Thank you.
So, I'm always gonna stand by the fact that I truly believe it *had* to be Natasha to die on Vormir. (Even though it hurts a lot!) For multiple reasons. And not because of the fact that Clint has a wife and kids, because having kids doesn't make you worth more than anyone else. Though that does factor into it, but not for that reason. I mean, for one, like you guys said, she wanted to wipe the red from her ledger, that was one of the biggest reasons it had to be her. This has been her journey from the beginning, she's been trying to make up for her past for so long and this was that final step to do that. (Though as said in the video, death is *not* the way to make amends for things in real life situations.) But also, *yes* because Clint has a family. Not because that makes him worth more, or anything, but because she cares about his family so much, she cares about him so much, she doesn't want them to lose their Dad. She was not about to let these kids who she absolutely adores lose their Father. And finally, she felt she owed Clint everything. She even said it in the first Avengers in that scene with Loki, that she owed him a debt. Now, you could say she more than paid it, but I somehow doubt she'd see it that way. He is the reason she got everything she ended up with. If he hadn't given her that chance, she never would've got him as a best friend, or his family as her family, or the Avengers, or *anything!* And that's not something you're just going to let go of or ever feel like you've truly repaid him for it. So by sacrificing her life there she was giving him that same chance that he gave her. To heal from the mistakes he's made in the last five years. In that moment, a part of him actually wanted to die. For one, he was very much still reeling from the guilt of everything, another his family was still gone even though they were working on getting them back, but also he was probably terrified of facing his family after those five years. If he had died instead of Natasha, it just wouldn't have worked because he had only just stopped the killing, it wouldn't feel as much like a sacrifice as it did with Natasha. Like, either way it would be both a sacrifice and a suicide, but with Natasha it felt like a sacrifice, with Clint it would've felt like a suicide. Does that make sense?
Yes! Clint wanted to take the easy way out, to say, "I am a killer, therefore my redemption is to die." But Nat had been through her own redemption, she knew that the harder way was also the better way. She wanted Clint to survive so he could find healing, for himself and those he wronged.
@@johannaneilson1877 Exactly. That's one of the reasons I get so sad when I see people say it should've been him to die (other than the fact that I love him and he's one of my favourites... Actually, after his show he's jumped up to actual favourite for right now...) Like, Natasha wanted him to be able to heal from all this stuff like she got to. She wanted to give him what he gave her and she couldn't do that if he was dead. He very much wanted to die and felt he deserved to die, Natasha didn't really want to die but she felt she had to in order to fix everything.
It's the best damn explanation on the internet ever....
Thank you for being clear headed & thinking logically
@@danielland3767 Aaw that’s so sweet! Thanks!
Yeah. It just makes more sense to me for it to have been Natasha to die in that moment. I get why so many people were pissed as she was the first female hero shown in the mcu and she hadn’t yet had her own movie or anything, but it definitely felt right to me for this to be how her story ended...
Yeah I fully agree. Natasha is one of my favourites and Clint is one of my least favourites, but still I think she had to die. It was just the absolute best and most perfect way to wrap up her arc, what she had been working for/towards all this time
Including “that’s rough buddy” has cemented my desire for a Zuko psychology of a hero video.
Yep same for me
I second this!!!
Natasha / Black Widow is my favorite type of character. Her struggles and growth resonate with me so strongly.
And yes. I am now the biggest fan of Florence Pugh. She is a QUEEN of acting.
So grateful for Alan. Thanks for crying as much as me, sweetie.
I feel like that scene in Age of Ultron could have worked fine if they'd just worded it better, because it definitely could have been seen as her saying she was a monster because of how she'd killed so many people, including people who were implied to be innocent, or at least who she didn't think deserved to die, but got caught in the crossfire, and she was bitter because they sterilized her to make her a more effective killer. Even her being upset about the sterilization itself would be justified, because, while not every woman needs or wants to have children, the fact that the choice was taken away from her is still horrible. And I don't think she'd consider adoption because even if she could legally adopt a child, she probably would genuinely worry that the child would always be in danger, or even just fear what might happen if the child found out about her past.
With Spider-Man out in theaters, would you be interested in making an episode on the loss all 3 Peter Parkers have had to go through along with the responsibility they have to shoulder.
I hope they make a video about Spider-Man ones No Way Home is available😍
I loved the Black Widow character so much. ScarJo is so good in the role, and the movie is so much fun with some truly well done family drama. That foursome was special.
My favourite moment was when Alan said he was a good re-writer and that's why he was a director. Thank you for owning your skills. This is a long way from the timid beginnings. Think this channel is good for not just us viewers for many reasons ;)
I think 'Winter Soldier' is the best we got to see of Romanova. Wish her film was more like that in tone.
Yeah, me too. I don't mind the healing part. But ugh, the movie.
Yeah, it's a real shame
More badassery, she should have a more badass role in other films. nah her film just makes her death hurts more. She did all that, saved so much and got her family back but you know at the end of it all. Shes dead in the present time.
The first time I watched Atomic Blond with Charlize Theron I thought “omg! That’s the perfect Black Widow movie”.
- the Red Room made her a monster; is how I saw that scene
- for the movie Black Widow. The main antagonist was the “family”. My take on it, as by this point I know the MCU has made great villains, but they were down played so the family could take front and centre.
- the series Hawkeye did Natasha great service by showing how others dealt with their grief surrounding her death.
I love, love, love this episode and I might have cried a few times.
There is one thing I'd like to add though. Forgiving works if the other person is showing some signs/ anything that they understand they did wrong. I'm from a family with a parent who has npd/aspd and is sadistic, violent, manipulative, r**ed me, and an enabler parent who I don't know what's wrong or any diagnosis. I'm not bitter, I don't want vengence, I understand why they are the way they are and I have pity, because they have to live with themselfs and aren't capable of change, not really. Their mind is pretty dark, their thought processes are f***ed up and there is no conscience or sense of self or empathy. There is nothing to work with for me. So I'm no contact for a long time now. I stopped loving them which for me was freeing, because it's terrible to love a horrible person.
For people like me ( not for people from more normal families!!! ) having to forgive is like being gaslighted all over again. I'm in a self-help group and we just had a talk about this and someone said it feels like another violation of boundaries and like being gaslighted again and I agree. Not forgiving doesn't mean that we can't heal or are bitter. Not needing to forgive actually feels freeing to me. It brings me a peaceful, calm feeling. I have no bitterness or anything like that towards them, I don't wish them anything bad. But I'm not going to forgive my r**e or some other things they did. That is my boundary and that is ok.
This of course is very specific and can't be applied to everyone. I forgive friends too and agree that it isn't helpful to hold grudges or be vengeful. I agree with everything said in the video! Just wanted to add there are terrible families out there. And for people who are the scapegoats in narcissistic/ psychopathic homes it's ok to move on and live your life and strive without forgiving everything. It's alright. You can still be fine.
English isn't my first language, sorry for mistakes!
this is beautifully said ❤
What a strong, inspirational soul you possess -- you're a real life hero 🌟
To transmute all of your pain into something productive, constructive and non-hateful is truly amazing
You should be very proud of yourself 💪
I love than Alan knows his strengths and embraces it. He's a good rewriter. In all honesty, I think this is a rare talent. So many movies remade and ruined by other directors. Alan is a gift.
I don’t know what I was expecting but the emotional depth of Natasha’s arc really got me. Thank you for this!
It is hard to feel the arc with the order her appearances were released, I think. I'm so glad they made this video!
@@b.b.2684 exactly! It’s spread out through so many movies it’s very hard to pick up all the nuances. Seeing it condensed like this really makes it hit home.
A moment of Epiphany:
Something I never truly realized until your breakdown of the scene between *Natasha* and *Clint* in :Endgame (I say that because the scene was not between Black Widow and Hawkeye, but between two friends, as people, trying to comfort one another)... Was that scene was also showing us that, in becoming Ronin, Clint had accepted life as the same kind of killing monster that Black Widow had been before she was brought into SHIELD. That was Natasha's chance to make a different call for him, clearing the red in her ledger and giving him a chance at redemption too. Thank you for that.
14:10 That whole bit about guilt. Absolutely beautiful, and something I needed to hear. Thank you.
Yes! I absolutely loved Florence Pugh in The Black Widow. She was my favourite character in the movie.
11:46 honestly, I got and still get a different read on that whole scene. I am a trans woman that is post-op and has been, for lack of a better term, sterilized.
Honestly, I see Romanov's confession as how much of her humanity has been stripped from her. How she empathizes with Banner about having a broken life. How she tries to soothe not only his fear of hurting her but also his fear of not giving her everything he thinks she wants.
And the line about being a monster has nothing to do with fertility, since her sterility had more to do with making her a more effective killer. From my perspective, she was trying to strip away the pedestal he had put her on. It was more about recognizing the brokenness in another and choosing to be with them by being monsters together.
Romanov is a very layered character where even her words carry multiple yet true meanings. So taking the monster line on the base interpretation of being sterile does not give the full context. It's very good writing and it encapsulates someone who is an expert at manipulation and misdirection. So much so that it becomes a barrier to her being vulnerable.
Wow, Jonathan, the part where you talk about "doing harm in therapy"... I, umm, think it's out of this world. For me... I personally, need to thank you for that. It is so hard to admit mistakes, to be vulnerable, especially when it comes to work.
Thank you so much for giving Natasha the time. So many people talked about how her death wasn't that sad but i think so many people forget how long she's been in the MCU, how important she was, and don't understand the struggle of dealing with how you were raised for one thing, brainwashed and manipulated. Only then to becoming an adult, trying to deal with the guilt of your childhood/younger years, and then trying to keep them from happening again, and make up for it.
This segment right here 20:30 hit really hard for me, about the foster care people.
I was adopted, abused by my adoptive sister and mother, then went to foster care after a year in juvenile detention. I loved all my foster parents but the longest I was with them, specifically my final foster family, was one year.
Now I will admit that I was a bad kid, but my foster family loved me like I loved them. And when I got too old for them, I had to move into a group home. And my foster mother, Miss Melissa, vowed to keep in contact with me.
In 2018 she stopped contacting me back.
About two years after I moved out, one of the brothers I lived with did something, I don't know exactly what, but Miss Melissa lost her license and her house over it. And something similar happened to my first foster family, my dad lost his license and wasn't allowed to contact his foster kids anymore.
All this time I thought Miss Melissa was harboring resentment towards me for being an autistic kid with too much baggage. But another former foster brother shed the light on the situation.
Miss Melissa stopped texting me back, not because she hates me, but because she can't.
😢😢
I miss her. I miss her so much.
I love your interpretation of the “you think you’re the only monster?” scene with Banner-Joss Whedon is definitely a misogynist in his writing a lot of the time, but I always read that particular line not about her infertility, but about the way she was forced to murder people, that THAT was the monstrous part of her (from her perspective). Whedon’s carelessness with the timing of the line is obvious, and I appreciate how you acknowledged the way that hurt a lot of women who were fans of the character and the movie.
I think so too. The whole infertility thing just helps with doing all the monstrous things widows are forced to do, and Natasha said it herself: one less thing to worry about. The timing was just undeniably wrong, so people are bound to believe she thinks she's a monster because she can't have kids.
It's interesting that Joss Whedon made her so bad ass in the first avenger, and then that infertility scene😔
@@ThashniNaidoo He was pissed at her for being pregnant. See: His treatment of Charisma Carpenter season 4 of Angel.
@@elenachristian9860 that man needs anger management.
And somehow he still thinks of himself as the realist person who tells it as it is and is never rude to everyone.
I’ve always loved Natasha’s character but this video put why in such a brilliant way
Jono's confession spoke to me big time. I'm no therapist but I have a sort of life-calling as a healer. And I used to help someone while I myself wasn't completely healed and thus did her more wrong. I already have taken the responsibility owned it up to her but it seems things won't get back to normal. Since I am no professional -albeit naturally gifted - how Jono experienced the same thing means a huge comfort. Thank You so much! Emily from Hungary
I know this video was done quite a while ago, but I just saw it now and I want to express myself. As a woman who will probably never have children, I understand Natasha's line in Age of Ultron as how she saw herself. Except for in Iron Man 2, Natasha has been shown to want/value family. In Avengers, it's the fact Barton, who she views as a brother, is in trouble is what gets her to come in. Winter Solider, she keeps trying to set Steve Rogers up on dates, which is something family will do (to me she views Steve as another brother). Age of Ultron, you can tell by her interactions with the team, she views them as her family. Plus look at the interaction she has with Barton's kids. I don't think I even need to mention the other movies she has been in, so I won't. Each movie shows how she values family (again minus Iron Man 2) and for her, the fact she can't have her own kids is something she hates about herself. Let's be honest, the things we hate about our self is something we feel makes us horrible or a monster. With were Bruce and Natasha are with the conversation (in one of the Barton's kids room), even Bruce's comment before about looking around where they are, I think were clues to that Natasha would actually like to have kids. The fact she can't have her own kids is probably in her top 5 of things she hates about herself, if not number 1. I even wonder, if the fact she can't have kids is the thing she hates the most about herself and because the reason she can't have kids is because of the assassin training she was forced to go through and them sterilizing her so she can fulfill missions, is why she openly express her dislike of her history being an assassin but not talk about the fact she can't have kids. Bruce is the only one who knows she can't have kids (maybe Barton but I think she hates that part of herself so much that she didn't ever tell him) and it is only after Bruce comments that he can't give her that and she basically replies back that doesn't matter because I can't have them either. I think this was a real moment of opening up herself to him and telling something she most likely never told anyone. I view that scene and Natasha as a stand in for woman who don't, can't, or may never have their own kids. The writer who came up with this idea may have wanted to show those women that you not being able to have kids doesn't make you a monster or diminish you. Just like Natasha, the fact that you can't have kids doesn't make you a monster or make you less and just like Natasha did, you can still have a family. It might be different from others who have their own family, but you can still have your own family and have those connections you are longing for. I also see Bruce in that scene as a stand in for someone who truly cares/loves the woman who can't, don't, or may never have kids. If you look at Bruce's face when Natasha is telling him about what she went through, you can tell he is sad and shocked but also that he doesn't agree with her. He knows what it means for her to have told him about that and he is silent because he doesn't want to disvalue her or make her feel like her pain isn't valid. But he also wants to tell Natasha that she isn't a monster, she is the one who calms the monster and brings out the human in Bruce. Again, he doesn't say anything because he doesn't want to say the wrong thing. He then decides to just talk about them leaving, which before he was against. It's his way of showing her that even though she thinks herself a monster, he doesn't. He shows that to her again when he rescues her and again talks about leaving. I get that not everyone will view it the same way I did and may not agree. I also will say that I think Bruce's and Natasha's relationship is shown better than people give it credit. Was it sudden, yes. Was it not fleshed out, no. I wish there was a hulk movie before Age of Ultron that shows Natasha overcoming her fear of Hulk and starting to warm up to Bruce. Showing just the smallest hints of a possible relationship and then Age of Ultron showing the relationship.
13:58 reminds me of how my therapist would say "You can't know what you don't know."
We are human, and we grow. And growth means that we can be better now, even if we weren't before.
As a woman who suffers from infertility... when I was living in Utah I definitely felt like a monster. A lot of women in my community treated me like something must have been wrong with me mentally or spiritually for God to have decided that I don't diserve more kids. Or on the other hand that I was a horrible parent for not giving my child a sibbling. Some parts of society 100% do treat women who can't have kids as monsters. (Stephanie Meyers did it with female werewolves and vampires. It's a whole thing. It left a deep impression on me when I was younger). When I watched that scene in theaters it cut me because I know the pain she feels. I know what it's like to feel broken.
I am not saying that this is how everyone in Utah thinks. I'm not trying to bash. But it is a pretty dominant mindset in some circles and it did me so much harm. (I didn't seek treatment for years because I thought I was being punished and got hit with pre-cancerous endometrial hyperplasia.)
Sometimes women are the worst about judging other women. Sorry that happened to you.
Yep. I read it the same way because I know it’s totally a thing that happens and that people can believe this. So for me as a woman, rather than being offended, I just thought the dialogue revealed a self belief that’s heartbreaking and I didn’t realise there are people - let alone a therapist - for whom this implied truth just went *whoosh*. I’m so sorry for your experience and I hope you don’t feel broken anymore.
I love seeing men being more open to therapy because they're the ones that open up least and it sometimes shows in the elderly, it takes a big toll on their physical and emotional health. I have never done therapy, but I wish I could get a therapy session with both of these guys 😊
Wait, a channel that shares wisdom and tools about mental health, trauma recovery and relationships through analysis of sci-fi / fantasy films??? I have found my soulmate TH-cam channel...😍
The problem with the Banner/Romanov relationship is that she ended up choosing the monster. The look of hurt on Ruffalo's face was amazing.
I actually think it was the opposite. It seems she chose Hulk, but then she tried putting him away again after the battle was done. Hulk was tired of being treated like a monster and a weapon, and despite Natasha's best intentions, she made him feel that way.
She was always a pragmatic hero. She wanted Banner, but needed Hulk to save everyone. It worked, lots of people got saved. But she severely hurt both Banners and Hulks feelings and their trust in her.
When talking about forgiveness, I think it's important to mention that sometimes a person can hurt you so bad that you'll never want to have anything to do with them again, and that's okay. Even if they do change and even if they do eventually become a good person. I wish you would've briefly talked about how forgiveness is never owed to someone, no matter who they are, and how it can be incredibly harmful, particularly to victims of abuse, to push someone to forgive when they aren't ready. As a victim of abuse, it was very damaging to be told that I eventually should forgive my abuser. You should NEVER tell, or even encourage, a victim of abuse to forgive their abuser.
Wow I agree! I just wrote a similar comment, because I was r***d and other things as a child. And for me it feels freeing to not have to forgive. Being told to forgive feels like another violation of boundaries. Thank you for also pointing it out! Not forgiving is fine.
@@danika9411 I'm glad someone else wrote a similar comment. Being told that I don't have to forgive the person who sexually abused me was so freeing. I don't think I could forgive that person no matter how hard I tried anyways and I feel less anger and negativity when I don't try. All trying to forgive that sick fuck, who isn't even sorry, ever did was make me feel more angry, hurt, betrayed, and powerless.
@@jessicacharlton7347 I'm the same! I made the same experience. Trying to forgive my abusers made me angry and my throat closes as if I want to throw up. They aren't even sorry either. Letting go of it and being ok with not forgiving made me much more calm too. My mind became more peaceful. I'm not vengeful or anything, don't wish them anything bad, I just can't forgive them. And that is ok.
I don't believe we have to forgive to get over something. I think this was made up by people who didn't experience what we did, so it's hard for them to understand that you can have a peaceful mind without forgiveness. Thank you for writing back! I really felt your comment. It's the same for me.
I feel the same way about my ex tbh.
He was one of those people that rather complained and turned bitter, blaming the world and the universe for harming him. Whether it was the loss of his unborn baby brother due to miscarrage or the suicide of his best friend, awful things happened to him and he couldnt process them.
Looking at PTSD and how Jonathan spoke about overcoming PTSD was spot on. Your friends and family are there to support you and suffer with you. A therapist is there to provide tools in order to heal and healing is difficult. It is confrontational and God knows I started to heal in order to be a better person for others, not for myself.
And my ex continued to add more red to his ledger. He would apologize, beg for forgiveness and/or emotionally blackmail when he wronged me. There was however, no accountability. He would feel guilt but that guilt wasnt used for anything productive. For him, it was another emotion he couldnt process. So he would try to rebuild our relationship with nothing learned.
He felt like a powerless victim yet did everything in his power to remain that victim. Even when it tore people apart. Even when his actions tore families apart. In the year that I dated him, I counted atleast 3 people whom he had torn apart yet his behavior remained unaltered. I gave him 3 seperate chances, 3 times I told him I was done and didnt want to talk to him anymore, and yet he persisted to keep in touch with me, until I was basically forced to tell him to fuck off.
When I asked him years later what I was to him, he said that I was a tool to survive.
Currently I am revisting this debacle with a therapist and I feel like my best option is to accept what happened. Accept the fact that there are different sides to this story and that the behavior we both showed was intended to do good. The damage is done.
And the only way he can clear out the red from his ledger, is to live a good life.
@@danika9411 I'm sorry you went through what you did, nobody deserves that. If your mind is peaceful now then that is amazing no matter whether you decided to forgive them or not, what is important is your peace. :)
My experience has been different. I was r***d and abused as a teenager and for me personally it was very freeing to come to see my abusers as what they are and to understand that they didn't have the capacity to be better (morally speaking) and I managed to forgive them for what they did and who they are. I didn't let them back in my life though. I believe in forgiving but not forgetting. I know they are dangerous and I won't give them a chance to hurt me again but I also won't live in fear of them anymore. Of course this is my personal choice and everyone should always have a choice.
I was right there with you Alan. Nat's death gets me everytime.
We can take solace in the fact that her scales are almost assuredly balanced, and she's in the Field Of Reeds; chillin'.
You two should go through The Falcon and the Winter Soldier. The line where Sam tells Bucky "How can you be of service" rings true when seeing Natasha do whatever she can to redeem herself
The first time I watched Natasha’s death I cried so hard my nose bled violently and I had to walk out. The second time I watched her death in End Game, a year later, I once again cried so hard that my nose bled everywhere. Never have I ever cried so hard that it caused my nose to bleed before this movie. It is the only cinematic moment that has ever evoked that much emotion from me. Not to mention that I couldn’t see most of the scene through the tears and blood. It’s all in Jeremy Renner and Scarlett Johansson’s voices in the end.
Age of Ultron has a lot of issues in my mind, but I tend to read it the way Alan explained it here. I also think that if it had been made more clear in the movie that Nat was deep in trauma and not thinking clearly at this point of her story, it would have played better.
There’s an extended version of that scene on the Blu-Ray that does a lot to support that reading, and also show how any romance between Nat and Bruce was doomed from the start. I recommend giving it a watch, I really wish that they hadn’t cut that scene down.
This my favourite hero episode. There is always hope, forgivness and redemption that can be achieved in your own mind if you try. Love this! :D
It Sincerely Amazes Me How The Life Affirming Themes Of The Avengers Always Resonate. ❤
I think we actually meet her, as a person, albeit briefly in Iron Man 2 in the before-Tony’s-birthday-party He asks her what she would do if she knew it was her last. Her verbal response isn’t super significant, but Natasha knows he is dying of palladium poisoning; the hint of mild seduction of ‘Natalie Rushman’ drops, and her genuine warmth comes through.
I never really related to Natasha, but I'm just glad that we're seeing more female heroes taking the spotlight. Especially Florence Pugh.
I love that alan cries cause it makes me feel like im not the only one crying in most of the marvel movies
you guys are the only youtube channel that makes me cry like my favourite movies do- which is alot...alot of sobbing and happy tears🙇🏽♀️
Black Widow!!!!! OMG. Thank you so much for this!!! She's by far an all time fave.
Edit: I'm don't want to cry, someone is cutting onions.
Rocket fuel irritates my eyes.
MiB animated series
Jonathan's advice on forgiveness reminds me of Shane Koyczan's 'How to be a Person'
"If the cost to heal something is only your pride, then apologize, and be grateful you received peace at such a bargain."
"Forgive. Realize that some people are still learning. If forgiveness is not possible then think of everything you’ve ever wanted to be forgiven for but weren’t."
"If you are waiting for forgiveness, be prepared to wait."..."Not all trespassers are equal, and not everyone will heal according to your schedule."
This episode is quotable I've stopped many times just to ruminate what you guys said! Alan's tear is glorious
This movie was a masterpiece and even the beginning scene with the montage, had me sobbing 5 minutes in 😭