Great video! I actually encountered this myth just last Tuesday. I was diving with a group that I had never dived with before. They were all diving dry suits. I was diving a 7/5mm wetsuit. Someone presented this myth and said “we won’t be diving to 100 feet today”. I had never heard of this myth and because I was a lesser experienced diver than this person I didn’t debate it. I did a weight check with ten pounds and found it to be ok. I dove that weight and was fine but felt slightly under weighted. My next dive I added 2 pounds and it was perfect. We dove to only to 64 and 56 feet respectively but with the little amount I was using my bcd to compensate my buoyancy I knew I would be fine at deeper depths with a complete failure of a bcd. Anyway, I’m going to send my friend this video and have the discussion with him, because I agree with you.
Hello The Shoots And Ukes Channel, glad you found our video. Unfortunately, there are divers out their that follow certain philosophies over reality. To each his own. The key thing that we stress to our students is, never over weight yourself, and always practice the basic skills that you learned in Open Water, so that you can overcome any problem that is presented to you while underwater.
Love these videos. Really enjoy the real world science experiments. When I first started, I was overweighted by over 10lbs.. Couldn't understand why I was so bad at air, adding and subtracting air from BC, etc. Was a workout! After lots of diving, I figured it out and got it down big time.
Hello Joshua Dircks, glad you hear you got or weighting needs figured out. One of the things you mentioned is the key, lots and lots of diving. Sometimes that is all it takes, experience.
I didn't even know this was a myth...this is so ridiculous, whoever says you shouldn't be diving deeper than 100 ft with a 7mm wetsuit made for Scuba diving is an ignorant. I took my 8mm Mares Flexa down to the sand at the RBJ in South Florida, 248 ft, and at no point I felt like a catastrophic wing failure would leave me no choice but to dump weight, I had 12 lbs on me and there is no chance I would've dropped weights if my wing (BCD) failed. Plus, how can your BCD fail? The inflator button stops working? Orally inflate! Somebody stabbed your BCD at depth? Depending on the location of the hole you can still ascend! You BCD got hit by a torpedo and blew up completely? Use your SMB under your arms to add lift if needed. There is very rarely a reason to drop weights in scuba diving, most problems can be solved if you stay calm and think of a solution. Bryan, are you ready for another collab? How about we go underwater somewhere (warm though) and once we are at depth you stab a hole on my wing, and see how we recover from that?
Hey Gus, I can't wait to do another collaboration with you guys. As per our conversation via text, I too was slightly shocked at the claim, especially being who made it. I have been tied up all day, and have yet to watch the reaction video to our collaboration. All my staff have been texting me all day telling me how great it was. As soon as I get home, I am going to put it on the big screen and watch it. Tell Woody I said hello, and it was awesome diving with him.
Wings can and do fail. It's not terribly often but one of the more common ways comes from BCD jackets that have a pull dump in the elbow of the corrugated hose. They have the possibility of becoming disconnected at the elbow. I've also heard of the power inflator popping off when being pulled on. But even that is very uncommon and easily avoidable if you're not yanking on your corrugated hose. Anyway... I agree with you guys. This myth is asinine.
Love your channel. @20 yrs ago I was at 100 ft doing my navigation dive in a 2 piece 7mm off Monterey CA, I weighed 220 had 30lbs of weight. My bc had a leaking dump valve. I did a few pulls on the anchor line to start my accent with kicks did safely with a stop have never ditched weight. My instructors fixed the valve never suggested a dry suit , they did use dry n semi dry suits. Warmth in pacific being issue but honest about cost. I think I was weighted heavy by standards of the time. I guess I was lucky to have good instructors
Hello Keith Clayton, glad to hear that you did make it back to the surface safely. It also goes to show that even to some extent, a diver who is over weighted, can still swim up. I believe the key is to remain calm and to not panic. Two things to remember, there is a possibility that you were over weighted, but I assume you were in Saltwater, and cold water is more dense than freshwater, so more weight is usually required. Thanks for sharing your story with us.
You make a valid point to not just trust anything that's passed around. It's more important to understand the physics behind the claims and transfer those to yourself. However I think in the latter you fail to acknowledge the whole picture. For example I'm a tall guy in a XXL 7 mm semi dry wetsuit plus 5 mm hooded vest. To be able to end a dive properly I need 9 kg of lead with a steel bottle. When assuming a compression of the Neopren resulting in a buoyancy of 1/3 as on the surface I'd end up being about 8 kg negative. This will be hard or impossible to swim up. I think it's important to be aware of the physics involved and take some kind of precaution to mitigate the risks. This can be avoiding to dive deeper than 100 feet, keeping your buddy close, having at least part of your weight removable, diving a drysuit or taking a DSMB with you. And talking about BCDs not failing... There's a nice talk about Complacency from Edd Sorenson on TH-cam. That said, it's impossible to find exact data on how any wetsuit will behave at what depth. Maybe I will take mine to 40 m at some point and measure its buoyancy with a spring scale. Best regards
Hello Just a Guy, as stated in the video, all wet suits are not created equal. However, Archimedes Principle remains the same. Any prudent diver understands their personal weighting needs will be different from others. So to answer your specific question, yes, based on Archimedes Principle and Boyle’s Law, the physics hold true. If you have a specific suit you would like for us to test, we will be happy for you to send it to us, and we can put it to the test for you.
I took the Buoyancy course with SSI and it was beneficial I also used it as one of the Pre-reqs for the Advanced Rating so it was worth it cost wise as well. One of the difficulties with weighting comes from changing up gear configurations. I don't dive as much as I like but I've spread 20-30 dives in a season between cold water thick wetsuit Salt water stuff, and warm salt water thin wetsuit stuff, Warm fresh water stuff, and cold fresh water stuff. steel tanks, aluminum tanks, and I just switched from a Jacket BCD to a BPW setup. So As much as I try keeping track of the different combinations in my logbook there is still a lot of trial and Error.
Hello Kevin Davison, hopefully, you will get more time to dive. The good news is, you are gaining experience with different setups and no matter what you wear, or how much weight you wear, you will be comfortable while underwater. This is what we like to see new divers do, as it makes them a more well rounded diver. This is what I teach new diver professionals as well. They need to be comfortable no matter what gear they wear. They are professionals by the way. The ones that have to rely on just one specific gear setup, becomes to reliant on the setup and not enough on their own skills and abilities.
Good to see it demonstrated! But 27F at the surface, 52F at the bottom; I'd still be wearing a drysuit! I did all my training up to AOW in wetsuits and I've never been so cold in my life! Now with a dry suit and dry gloves an hour or more in the 40s is no problem at all. But in warmer water, I agree; for that I use a 6mm semi-dry and when correctly weighted for the end of the dive I've never had trouble emptying the wing and swimming up from 100ft for practice.
Yeah about 8 months after did I my OW had already all my other gear and had made the decision that I wanted to dive often and dive at least once a month, I ended up ordering a dry suit. The near by lake we use for diving gets down to low 50s end of Nov to March or if you go deep enough during the summer months it maybe 101F outside and surface of 88F, but at 120ft its still 55F after the turbid layer and a couple thermoclines, lol.
Hello Tim Gosling, we would encourage Drysuit use as well over the 7mm, especially for after the dive. As you have seen in our other videos, we all dive Drysuits here in cold water, unfortunately, not everyone that dives can afford one. We did feel the need to address this issue, as the claims that were made (linked in the description) seemed a bit off to us. And from our experience were simply not true. Our main goal is to keep divers safe, and to teach them proper weighting. Whether they dive a 6mm, 7mm, Two Piece Farmer John, or a Drysuit of their choosing, we would never encourage anyone to ever over weight themselves. For the record, we did have a heated shed to change in after the dive. So 27 degrees was not an issue, just the walk back up was a little on the chilly side (ok, a lot on the cold side LOL).
I dive in Cozumel in my 7mm semi dry (I get cold very easily) and I only needed 4lbs to compensate for al80 going 4ish lbs positive towards end of cylinder
Brian thanks for your honesty while talking about sales. It’s good to hear that which I already knew, but great confirmation. So living in Michigan Ive done all my training in a 7 mm suit (except dry suit). I dive to 100’ every summer in the straits of Mackinaw in a 7mm or a 7/8mm semi-dry wetsuit. 12 lbs is exactly the weight I use and 14 is too much. I loved your experiment and physics doesn’t lie. It can be done, I do it often. Definitely, if you have to PULL yourself UP the line, your too heavy. Shame on anyone who claims otherwise. Thanks again. Keepm coming.
Hello Ken Temple, glad to hear that you liked the video. Our goal with this video is to show divers the importance of never over weighting themselves just to go down. We agree with you, that if you have to pull yourself up, you are over weighted. Based on some of the comments on this video, we have discussed producing a video on how much is too much weight. Another viewer asked specifically about how we manipulate our buoyancy with our breathing, and of course experience has a lot to do with this, but it would be interesting at least to see just how much one breath of air can compensate for each pound added. As @Max Torque stated, even with a small amount of extra weight, any competent diver with a set of fins on, should easily be able to swim their kit up.
Single-layer 7mm is totally doable (nice demo, as usual!), as its surface buoyancy is about 15 lbs. At that depth, you probably lose about 8-10 lb from compression, and the non-reserve air left in the tank was probably about 4 lbs. That makes the swim up about 13 lbs negative buoyancy (which gets easier as you ascend). For completeness, you should have shown you can hold the safety stop at reserve tank pressure, which would hopefully satisfy those who doubt that 12 lbs of lead makes you properly weighted.
Hello Paul Billings, glad you liked the video. While producing this video, we discussed the Safety Stop issue in great depth. Considering the video shows the descent at the beginning with out any struggles, we felt that this was sufficient to show that for my personal weight requirements 12 pounds was sufficient. We also considered the issue of not performing the stop, given the claim that was made by the agency. If we remember the basis to decompression theory, Safety Stops are only encourage and never required for any recreational dive with in the no decompression limits. We tried to hold true to the claim, with out adding any additional variables to the test. In an real emergency situation, given the Safety Stop is not actually required, we felt that most viewers would be reasonably prudent enough to understand that if I made it to the Safety Stop Depth, then the last 20 feet was possible. This was the other reason we decided to not show us ditching the weight at the bottom as the agency claimed would be necessary to make the ascent. Most of the major training agencies recommend to only ditch weight at the surface during a buoyancy related emergency, unless is was compounded with an out of air emergency as well. Here at Lake Hickory Scuba Center Inc., we agree with those agencies. Now in regards to the reserve air meant for the foresaid Safety Stop. My weight calculations always take into consideration of the loss of weight, which we demonstrated in one of our older videos on how to calculate the proper weight (th-cam.com/video/uYeuBJkWxQ4/w-d-xo.html). Being a Sidemount Diver, who routinely dives Aluminum 80's, I eliminate the need for this calculation by taking it out of the formula all together. This helps me eliminate any ballast issues if I ever decide to remove a cylinder underwater. We can do the same thing with steel cylinders, although, this does contradicts the theory of never overweighting oneself while diving. By eliminating the ballast weight of a steel cylinder that is still negatively buoyant at the end of a dive, then we are essentially overweighting ourselves from the get go. The last thing divers need to remember is, the most important thing we should consider is proper gear maintenance and servicing. Other than minor leaks in valves and OPV's in the last 34 years of diving, I have never had a catastrophic failure in my BCD. To say it happens enough to keep us from diving to 100 feet is completely absurd. Preventing an issue will always out weigh the what if's.
Your clip will help a lot I hope, because I know how it felt to be overweight, when I did my deep dive, I had 12kg because I choosed 15l tank, which I knew was perfect to me, I did few more guided dives, I really wanted to go to 40m with my dive instructor, so from my experiance I did the math:12l =10kg, 15l=12kg, which means 18l=14kg. He kept me doing, because I guess he trusted me, we did the dive to 42m, everything was finde until we get back to the boat. He told me smiling: don't you think you were overweighted? I told him about my math, which made kind of sence to him, the captain, a kind girl heard us and she said: 15l or 18l aren't this much different, so when I did the secound dive with the 18l, I kept the 12kg. Which was perfect, to be honest I'm very thankful to my dive instructor keep me doing, it was just we both and it was a save dive, I'm the kind of person who love to risk, I don't mean if it would become Dangerous, but me it helpped a lot, to get this experiance, because no I know what weight I need if I would choose a 18l again. But which really wonders to me? Was my math so wrong, because 2kg more between 12l and 15l was always perfect. So I really wonder is there a kind of rule? :) To me he is one of the best instructor, because he just let me die, I guess He knews 12kg or 14kg isn't a big deal, where we dove we reached the bottom so I couldn't go deeper, I prefer those kind of instructor who just give s chance doing little mistakes by yourself, I'm thankful, because my fault was in a save place, I learned a lot, if I had still believed my math is perfect, I don't know what would happen if I would go to the blue whole with 18l and 14kg. My you think bit different, but I like those instructor who let the student do, as long as it's not totally dangerous, or let them and just stop them before they go into the water. Like: okay you think you would need 20kg, here you are now walk few steps, so are you still sure you need this much? 😁 Except dangerous mistakes, as long as you learn something, aren't real mistakes. I wonder what you think, I would love to know what you think about my math and what I think about risks.
Hello @benheckendorn2696, the absolute safest and best way to get your weight needs under control is to practice in a pool. Have two cylinders, one with 500 psi and one that is full. Weight yourself properly with the cylinder that is nearly empty, and this will allow you to be properly weight for the end of the dive. Of course once you switch over to your full cylinder, you will be slightly heavy, this is because of the weight of the air in the cylinder. But you should however, still be able to swim that cylinder up during and emergency. And don't forget, you are still wearing the BCD, so the additional 4-6 pounds that the air adds, can easily be compensated for. Hope this helps.
Bryan, Great video. I loved a comment that you you said that the dive industry has a problem with over weighting students, which needs to stop!!!!!!. I teach my students proper weighting from the start. The rest of the video was great. I have also dispelled the 7mm myth.
Hello Ray Brienza, glad you liked the video. I cringe every time I see an Instructor continue to just add weight to a student to get them to sink, instead of working with them on breathing control and relaxation to help them descend. Very recently, I took in a referral student, and during their Open Water dives, which was in a 3mm wetsuit, in freshwater, they asked for 30 pounds. It floored me for a minute, and when asked why they felt like they need that much weight, their response was, "Well that's what my Instructor said I needed." So needless to say, I took him back to the pool for some buoyancy work before I took him to Open Water. It turns out, he only need 8 pounds to get neutrally buoyant with an empty cylinder. After receiving his certification, he stated he would never go back to the other Instructor.
This is the first time I’ve heard about that myth… fortunately, because I have dived many times with a 7 mm wetsuit… I don’t really understand why someone could use such tactics to sell a dry suit. I mean, a dry suit is easily sold once you have tried it. Once I owned one I got rid of my 7 mm right away…
Hello Pablo Arrieta, this was the biggest issue we had with the claim. As a diver that has grown up diving neoprene suits since the 1980's, I've never really understood why such claims are made. There are plenty of ways to sell a Drysuit other than misinformation. We encourage Drysuit diving, and personally, I own several that I use daily. And you are correct. Usually, it only takes one dive in a Drysuit to sell one.
Yeah first I have ever heard of that myth before as well. Back when I did my Deep Dive course, I was in a 7mm, hood etc.. and we to100ft after sticking my arm in the mud to get that extra half of foot on my computer for my log the local lake lol. Had no issues with buoyancy other than given I was still quite green then, was probably slightly overweighed. Great video Bryan!
Great demo. I fully agree that proper weighting is important. Also it is nice feeling when you don't need to play with the inflator all the time. Some other cosequences are better trim and lower air consumption. Something worth to put some effort. Proper weighting is not only for wet suit divers. It is worth of effort for dry suit divers, too. And the reasons are mainly the same.
Glad you liked the video Mikko Sport. You make some great points. With proper weighting, a diver tends to have better trim and lower air consumption as well.
I would be so dead if this myth were true! Good to see your videos again, the youtube algorithm is throwing me crap content and hiding my favourite channels.
That was a great demo. Normally I am slightly overweight because I’m usually on the bottom searching and prefer it but you look roughly same size as myself. I’m 220 5’9. I will say I never usually change weights because I will go fresh to salt water on occasion so my weights are set. Except for ankle weights if I use my drysuit,I think I will reconsider and review my trim again. Thanks for the demo
Hello Pacediver, glad you liked the video. Currently, I am 5'7", and my weight fluctuates between 195lbs-215lbs. During our busy season, when I am not only running the shop, but working on my family farm, I can drop down to 185lbs. This does effect my weighting needs depending on my exposure suit choice of the day. But its rarely more or less than around 5lbs of difference. One of the topics we discuss in our Perfect Buoyancy Course is, the worst thing a diver can do, is compare themselves to other divers. We all have our own individual weight needs, and will never be identical to others. In this video, I stated several times that we should never overweight ourselves, and even though this still holds true, there are exceptions. I guess I could clarify and say, "Never overweight yourself to the point you still could not physically swim up without the need to ditch your weights." Like you, while searching on the bottom, especially in a strong current, I too opt to go heavy, to assist with stabilization while on the bottom. We have a video coming out on February 25th, that I think you will find very interesting as well. Specifically relating to ankle weight use, drysuits, and fins. So stay tuned for that. Lastly, and something that will be addressed in that future video as well, is the angle of trim. Sometimes divers get to focused on being trimmed at 0 degrees, which is not the most efficient angle in regards to drag and breathing efficiency.
Glad you liked the video Gary Anji. In the Weight Calculation video we linked in the description, we discussed that very issue, and we show how to calculate proper weighting even with a tank that is not completely full.
I know you set out to disprove this particular case, but there are definitely cases where someone cannot swim up (even when properly weighted). Being tired/cramped is an obvious complication that could impact even the single-layer 7mm case you tested. More importantly, I'd say the real danger lies with double-layer / farmer-john suits, where folks have to fight 20 lbs (or more) of negative buoyancy to get off the bottom. (This is again, properly weighted: neutral at a safety stop at reserve tank pressure with empty wing.) Redundant buoyancy (whether that's a trusty buddy, a second bladder, or a DSMB or similar) is a good idea when 7+ mm wetsuits are involved.
Hello Paul Billings, you make a compelling argument in regards to cramps and other physical handicaps that may develop. However, when it comes to physics, the physics never change. If you are properly weighted for the depth you are at (this includes the exposure suit of choice), all a diver would need to do is simply inhale. Just as we teach divers in the open water program, simply by breathing the body rises with each inhale. Thus, if you are properly weighted, taking a deep controlled breath would be enough to break the plain of neutral buoyancy they had already achieved by being properly weighted. Once this occurs, then they could control their ascent as I show here in this video (th-cam.com/video/r0MPhC7nuBA/w-d-xo.html). I will state this though, there is a huge difference between an experienced diver and a newer diver, and that of course is experience. Remaining calm is key as well. If we think of the basic theory of Archimedes Principle, the overwhelming majority of humans are naturally positively buoyant at the surface, and if remained calm would naturally float even if they couldn't swim. Its when panic sets in, that they go under and begin to take on water. This same theory would apply at depth, as most inexperienced divers would begin to let stress take over, and most likely resort to letting panic set in. In that case, your argument would be correct. The two major points that we would like for divers to learn from this video is this. First, and most important, never overweight yourself, which is achievable in any exposure suit and second, practice, practice, practice.
@@LakeHickoryScuba when properly weighted, the ONLY things the wing compensates for is suit compression and non-reserve gas you haven't yet breathed. When the wing fails, the combination of inhalation and kicking may not be enough in some cases. You absolutely debunked the 7mm myth, but some people use more neoprene than that or have smaller lungs than you or can't kick as hard as you did. I'm just saying everyone should consider their particular situation and ideally do the very simulation you performed themselves. (This, of course, being right in line with the two major takeaways you mentioned.) Cheers!
I think people perhaps fail to understand the basic concept of "proper weighting" 1) Why do we need weight? Because with our kit on, we are less dense than water, so we float (ok, pretty obvious this one, but worth stating!) 2) What factors change our buoyancy with depth? Compression of our kit (reduced volume = reduced buoyancy) 3) What factors change our buoyancy with time? Exhation of our breathing gas during the dive (lower mass of gas = increased buoyancy) which leads too: 4) What is the correct weighing? The MINIMUM amount of additional fixed (ie attached to us somehow) ballast to ensure that we can accurately and safely control our depth at all stages of our dive. This is not a fixed or finite amount of course, and depends on the exact dive we are about to do. Clearly factors 2) and 3) work in opposing directions. We tend to start our dives with a full (heavy) cylinder and on the surface, ie at a shallow depth (least compression, most buoyancy) but we tend to end our dives back on the surface (most buoyancy) but with an empty (ish) cylinder. This makes the critical point for our dive mostly likely to be our final safety stop. As accurately stated in this vid, the BCD is their to compensate for 2) & 3) For open circuit scuba the use/loss of breathing gas is unavoidable, so we have to start the dive with enough ballast to account for the mass of air we plan to use, and hence use our BCD initally to compensate for that extra ballast. However, really, unless you are diving with large doubles, then the sort of masses of breathing air we are talking about are between 1.5 and 3 kg. This means that a BCD failure leaves us with a total negative buoyancy of just 3kg. This for anyone wearing fins and with the ability to breath in fully (your lungs are around 6 litres / 6kg or more and they are the most reliable BDC you have!) should, as demonstrated in this video, pose absolutely no issue what-so-ever in terms of being able to initiate an ascent. For anyone new or perhaps unsure, i'd recommend two simple tests, that can really be carried out on pretty much any dive: 1) On your final safety stop, just before you surface, get into the habbit of establishing an idea of just how much air is actually in your BCD. YOu can do this by actually letting it all out (you may be surprised by how much air is in there!) or by simply reaching behind you and feeling how full your BCD's bladder is. Do this on dives with different conditions and set-ups and you'll soon get a picture of your excess buoyancy at this critical part of the dive. 2) Establish what you can swim up against in terms of ballast: This really requires a pool or shallow site to do safely, and make sure your buddy knows what you are doing and is watching for any problems. Grab some spare weights start with around 2kg or so, in your hands, or in a mesh bag or similar. Descend to the bottom (3m is plenty deep enough), vent your bcd fully, and try and swim up. IME, anyone who is a competent swimmer, wearing fins, can actually swim up with a surprising amount of mass, especially if they use their lungs to act as the BCD (remember to exhale / breath as you start to ascend of course!). Once you've done it with fins, try it bare foot. What this does is give you confidence you can in fact cope without a bcd in most cases.
Hello Max Torque, thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. I agree with you 100%. And what's troubling to me, when I first heard the claim (as it was pointed out by another viewer), I had to listen to the entire POD-CAST multiple times (which is over 40 minutes long), as they start out in the same direction as you. They do an excellent job of explaining why we need weights to begin with. Then they back track and throw physics right out the door. They even joke and say that even though its basic math (which I believe he means physics), the very next sentence he claims the math does not apply, as its completely impossible for any human to perform. Even with out testing the claim myself, I could make a basic observation by seeing all the 100's, or 1,000's, if not 10's of 1,000's of divers in the world that routinely dive a 7mm to 100ft while using an aluminum 80, and confidently say the claim is motivated by personal biased or philosophy driven. Either way, it simply is not true based on the factors we have tested.
Wonderfully done Bryan! I too struggle to understand why this agency continues to say this about 7mm suits. Of the 3 "dir" agencies they're the only one's I've heard say this. Thanks for doing this video. I'll shoot you an email if I think of other similar ideas you may like to test. Maybe I can make it over to Lake Hickory sometime for a dive.
Thanks K B, glad you liked the video. We have another one coming out on February 25th, that I think you will find interesting as well. Personally, I don't have any thing against any agency or Instructor. This was a very interesting topic though, as we talked about. 100's if not 1000's of divers dive a specific way, safely and routinely. Even back in the 50's, when BCD's were not common, diver's never seem to have issues with buoyancy control or proper weighting. It was very common to weight yourself for the depth you were going to, and based on the exposure suit you were wearing. I think one of the things that causes controversy in this specific topic, is certain divers can't comprehend that none of us are identical, and they try to compare themselves to each other. We all will have different weighting needs. Viewers will watch one of our videos, and they get upset with the lack of weights we wear, yet it takes them a sufficiently more amount of weight to dive neutral. There are several factors on why this is the case. The best advice I can offer anyone is to, just focus on themselves. Thanks again for the video idea.
@@LakeHickoryScuba totally agree. And on a totally unrelated note, would you be willing to do a video on your personal PSD gear configuration sometime? I'm also an ERDI public saftey diver and volunteer on a local team. I'm curious what other teams are doing. Especially those who use a BP/W for public saftey dives.
Hello from the UK. Great video thanks. I switch between a 7.5mm semi-dry suit in the warmer months, then add a "sorty" style 7.5mm wet suit over my core. The 7.5mm semi dry on its own requires 12Kg (26.5lbs) and with the core Shorty, I cant get down unless my weight is increased to 15Kg (33Lbs), In the really cold winter months, I use a scubapro dry suit, and need 16Kg (35lbs) to get neutrality buoyant. When I was in warmer climes, I was diving with 6Kg (13Lbs) with a 5mm wetsuit. Always thought I was over-weighted, however after trialling less weights with every suit, these weights are correct. I'm assuming the semi-dry suits are way more buoyant than wetsuits with the same thickness? Then again at a combined thickness of 15mm, it's not surprising! All tested in salt water. 👌
Hello Graham F, saltwater makes a huge difference. The density of saltwater compared to freshwater can account for the extra weight you need. In this video here we discuss that very issue. th-cam.com/video/uYeuBJkWxQ4/w-d-xo.html. As far as Semi-Drys, and standard neoprene suits of the same thickness, it all depends on the material used, the construction of the suit, and the seals used. I've had several Semi-Dry's over the years, and most had gaskets with non waterproof seals, and some had water proof seals, with non water proof zippers. And other had water proof seals, and water proof zippers, but non water proof seams. I've also owned suits made of Rubatex that did not compress at all at depth. All the factors play a role in weighting needs.
You are correct pucioy, the type of neoprene, and the thickness will make a difference, but rarely is it enough to change the weighting needs of a diver to the point they are over weighted.
7mm feels like 1 mm at 100 feet in the Great Lakes 🥶. Great video.. There may be a difference in the Farmer John style 7mm in its dual layer set up. There's a lot of neoprene compression and expansion going on...
Hello Scott denzer, depending on the type of neoprene that is used, and the proper fit of suit, the insulated capacity of suit will change. With a Farmer John, the added buoyancy is usually around the center of mass of the diver, but offers some of the best thermal protection while at depth. This is another reason I chose to use the Mares Ultra Skin top under the 7mm. Added thermal protection with no added buoyancy. Trying to follow the claim as closely as I could, which was a 7mm suit, aluminum 80, and 100 feet of water. I will state that in my experience, even though I obviously dive a Drysuit in colder environments (as we have shown in our other videos), I've never had any issues with 7mm suits, with a ton of different brands, and staying warm during dives. The key of course, the suit has to be properly fitted. I would love to come up to the Great Lakes to do some diving. Got any recommendations of some great dive sites.
"There may be a difference in the Farmer John style 7mm in its dual layer set up. There's a lot of neoprene compression and expansion going on." A lot going on, indeed. I dive a 7mm Farmer John in cold water, so it's 7mm on my arms and legs, but 14mm over my torso. When I did my open water course, my instructors were shocked at how much weight I needed in order to get below the surface in salt water. I'm 6'5" and 210 pounds, so there's a LOT of foam covering me. I needed 42 pounds of lead. Now that my suit has been used, it has compressed a bit and I only need 38 pounds. ("Only" 38 pounds?) Even when I was carrying 42 pounds, though, I had no problem ascending from 60 feet with an empty BCD. Moderate finning with good fins was all it took. Most divers in my area (Puget Sound) use dry suits, though, and I just bought one for myself so I'm looking forward to shedding some weight.
Great video Bryan. Well done. 👍 Where does this type of complete BS come from? I used to dive a .25" (6.35mm), farmer john wetsuit (so my entire torso area was covered by .5" (12.7mm) of neoprene) in the great lakes while diving wrecks. I ran 80 cu.ft. tanks, and sometimes my double 80's. I wore 12-14 lbs. of lead and rarely used my BCD. I spent a whole bunch of time diving below 100' and never once had any issues with buoyancy. SMH... 😲😲Oh, good lord!!! I just listened to the Podcast these people put out. I listened to #10 first since it was on weighting. Not only are they spouting this complete BS on 7mm wetsuits at depth. Then they follow it up with putting your weight belt on and THEN putting on your back plate and wing over the top and hooking the crotch strap OVER the top of the weight belt, and then to look in to putting additional "ditchable " weight in pockets. Where do they find these people? And then I listen to #33 and these guys are spouting this garbage live to a group in Las Vegas... WOW. No wonder we have so many confused divers out there....
Hello Sam Moyers. I wished I had a more definitive answer for you. I'm not sure if they preach this to their students because they truly believe it, or if its their way of pushing for Drysuit sales (which they manufacture themselves). Either way, its simply not true.
@@LakeHickoryScuba Thanks Bryan. It was more a rhetorical question. These kind of folks are in every part of life, spouting lunacy just to hear their voices. And the internet gives them unlimited access. Fortunately their are places like Lake Hickory SCUBA, to set the record straight. Thanks again for your excellent content. Dive Safe
thoughts on ditchable weights for ditching at the surface while helping another diver...? I enjoy non ditchable weight on my tank straps for trim nice and close to the backplate, but wonder about merit of ditchable weight for surface emergencies
Hello Jon Ramsay, as most of our viewers know by now, I am a huge fan and advocate of balanced rigs, and rarely do I dive ditch-able weights. This does not mean that I'm against them in any way shape or form, because as this video shows, you can have a balanced rig and still have ditch-able weights. I would actually encourage all divers, especially as they are starting out to always have some weight that is ditch-able. A good reason for this is as you stated, emergency situations while helping another diver. Unfortunately, there are times when ditch-able weights are difficult to justify, such as when I dive Sidemount. This is where proper weighting and training comes in. As we progress as divers, we learn how to manipulate our bodies in the water column with our breathing, and not so much with our equipment. We have a video coming out on February 25th, talking about this very topic (manipulating your equipment and not letting your equipment manipulate you), so stay tuned for that. But getting back to ditch-able weights, it really comes down to comfort level and the buddy you are diving with. If a diver wants to merge away from ditch-able weights, then I would suggest practicing as much as possible in a pool setting, doing emergency ascent skills, and really focusing on their buoyancy. Eventually, they will get to a point where they can manipulate their buoyancy without ever touching their BCD. This is when true mastering of buoyancy becomes a reality.
A great video and very informative. Would love to see your weight requirements with a Trilaminate Drysuit, thick undersuit like a Santi400 and a single steel 12Litre cylinder.
Hello HobbyMan UK, if you saw the video we did on Flooded Drysuits, you can see that exact setup. I will link it here for you. th-cam.com/video/xSPi-67H51I/w-d-xo.html. Spoiler Alert 8 pounds.
Hello Bojan Boskovic, this topic is very hot here in the States. There are so many options when it comes to plates with doubles. If we look at the Mares XR line, there is a 3mm steel plate, a 6mm steel plate, a 3mm aluminum plate, and a soft plate. 3 of those I currently use, depending on what cylinder I dive. The same rules apply, regardless of the cylinders. I encourage all divers to never over weight themselves. We have a video coming out in March referring to the DIR Philosophy, which many DIR divers believe there are specific situations of when an aluminum vs steel plate should be used, primarily with neoprene in saltwater while wearing doubles. My thoughts are simple. Once you determine your overall weighting requirements, including the natural ballast weight of your rig, and then you determine how much physical gas you need for a given dive (based on your RMV rate), then you can choose the appropriate size cylinder, that meets your supply needs and your weighting needs. For what it is worth, I currently have a set of Steel 80's doubled up, with a 3mm steel back plate (which will be featured in an upcoming video), that I can wear with a 3mm suit, a 7mm suit, a neoprene drysuit, and multiple trilaminate drysuits, and regardless of what I wear, I rarely wear any weights with it, both in freshwater and saltwater. Now obviously, I am overweight in freshwater with a 3mm suit, but when the dive calls for that much gas (my salvage dives), then I can make it work. Just like this video, I can still swim them up with out much trouble.
Wow… I’ve never heard of this myth before. In the UK it’s all drysuit diving, but when abroad I also use a 7mm wetsuit with the usual abroad Ali 80 (standard in the UK is a steel 12 or 15ltr) and never had a thought about it. Bob on with what you say about being weighted correctly. Over weighted causes way more problems than it solves so absolutely spend the time to get it right from the start. Thanks for an interesting vid 😎👍
Hi, been a fan of your videos for quite a while. very informative, professional and to the point. quick question out of curiosity. you were carrying 12lbs on this dive. How much do you estimate you would carry with the same gear in salt water??
Great question. 4 ילעד יעקבזן •, Typically if I am in Salt Water and the water is cold enough, I will either been wearing a 5mm Graph-flex or a Drysuit. With the 5mm Graph-flex and an Aluminum 80, I wear between 10-12 pounds. In a Drysuit, usually I will wear 15-18 pounds, depending on if I wear my Neoprene Drysuit or my Trilaminate Drysuit. Saltwater, being more dense than Freshwater, will always require more weight. In this video, we tried to address the claim as it was stated, which was a 7mm wetsuit and an aluminum 80. Though I still believe in a 7mm neoprene suit, as you saw, I had to grab a brand new one straight off the shelf, as I currently do not own one. I usually go from a 3mm, to a 5mm, to a Drysuit.
@@LakeHickoryScuba thanks for the quick response. I totally agree with the concept that if you are properly weighted there is no reason to ditch weights at any depth with any type of configuration. the mastery of neutral buoyancy is one of the most important fundamentals in scuba diving and is taught wrong from the beginning instilling the wrong idea in the minds of students and is very hard to get rid of further on up the road. again, thanks for the great materials you post. keep up the good work and safe diving.
Personally I've been diving a drysuit and I wasn't particularly warm in it but managed to withstand an hour long dive and after that I just got the drysuit off and got in the car. I don't know how long you would be able to dive a wetsuit for but it would definitely be an extremely uncomfortable dive and taking it off and getting into dry clothes would be absolute torture in such weather.
Hello Robert Griffis, this is a tough one. It all comes down to your personal tolerance for cold water. I personally dive many different Drysuits, which we have produced several videos on. This one specifically, we show you all the different models I am currently diving. th-cam.com/video/AZz5_W2t-Yk/w-d-xo.html My choices are based off personal needs, and personal comfort. With Drysuits, undergarments make a huge difference in comfort and warmth. Finding the right match can only be done by trial and error. All divers will have their favorites, but their favorites most likely will not work for everyone, my included. My suggestion is to go by your local training center, and see what options they have. If they don't sell Drysuits, then find one that does, and see if they have a rental program. Of course, make sure you get properly trained on how to use it first. A lot of shops like ours, include the Drysuit course free of charge with the purchase of a suit. So make sure to ask about that as well.
i think this idea stems from your wetsuit losing all buoyancy by the time you reach 100 ft, and if its a 7mm wetsuit that could be around 20-25 lbs depending on what size you are...so your bcd would need to be able to compensate by the same amount in order to maintain neutral buoyancy?
Hello Donkey Kong, great name by the way. We are planning a video in the near future, where we intending on testing out the buoyancy characteristics of different neoprene thickness at depth. Hopefully the results will be noteworthy.
I realized I'm fine with 10-12 kg (12L or 15L tank) on salt water. And around 6-8kg for fresh water. I realized I'm maybe 2kg over weighted, but with 36 loged dives, I still use more air, so those 2kg are just something little a safety weight not to rise too fast, secoundly I guess 2kg isn't a big deal, I guess those 2kg more can be handled without ever need to be dropped. I would love to know what you think.
Hello @benheckendorn2696, truth be told, a lot of Dive Instructors will overweight themselves with about 4-5lbs extra, so if they need to hand off weight to students they can. As long as you can still swim the weight up, you should be just fine.
I was surprised you only had 12 lbs. Seems like when I dive my 7m semi-dry I need lots of weight. I'm 6', 215 lbs and took 36 lbs w/ a steel tank recently. I have no doubt I'm overweighted but I really struggle to get down if I don't. Does that seem absurdly high or do some people just take that much to get down? I'm assuming the former and there's something I need to be doing better. Thanks for the informative video!
Brian 36 pounds with a steel tank is a huge amount of weight. My standard gear is full 7mm Henderson and I am 6’2, and weighed 195lbs my last dive. I carry a total of 14lbs of lead and I drop after like a stone after descending 20 feet when my BCD is empty. I have Henderson Aqualock which is also a semi-dry. You must have some trapped air, make sure your BCD is empty. You are far too heavily weighted and that can be unsafe.
Brian, try this weight calculator to get you close, and then add/remove as needed from there. Hopefully you have a nice pool somewhere to practice in! www.divebuddy.com/calculator/weight.aspx
I wear a 7mm wetsuit and weigh 190lbs and use 12-14 lbs with a steel 100. My dive buddy weighs about 280-290lbs and uses 18 lbs (disclaimer: he wears a 5mm) also with a steel 100. I'm certain there are factors outside of body weight that are causing you to need so much weight to get down. I would recommend looking at it from the perspective of it being someone else's problem and you're trying to help them get through it. That's worked for me before.
Hello Brian Daily, the worst thing we can do is compare our personal weighting needs to others. Just as a comparison, I'm 5'7", and my weight fluctuates between 185-215 pounds depending on the time of the year. I routinely dive 4 different Drysuits, which you can see here in this video th-cam.com/video/AZz5_W2t-Yk/w-d-xo.html, and my weighting needs change daily. The biggest advice I can give you is, GO DIVING. The more we dive, we will notice that our weighting needs change, and usually becomes less. The link @FFAdventures provided is a great starting point. We too produced a video showing you the long math in calculating weighting needs th-cam.com/video/uYeuBJkWxQ4/w-d-xo.html. But both of these are only starting points. The worst thing we can ever do, is over weight ourselves.
I have 48 logged dives, and I’ve really started to focus on buoyancy & trim the last 10 dives… I dive in SoCal in a 7mm with a 3mm vest/hood and typically a steel 100… I’m currently using 14# total (all in front, no trim weights) which seems to be about right at the end of my dives. I heard you say use your lungs for buoyancy control, not your BCD - could you expand on this more please? Does that indicate that when properly weighted our BCD should be a “set it & forget it” item and we don’t need to add/purge air throughout a dive? I am wondering if I am still a tad overweighted since I do play w my air throughout the dive - especially on my ascent when I have to purge quite a bit to not ascend too fast. I have very large lung capacity, and I can really notice my buoyancy change simply by breathing, but I also don’t want to spend an entire dive short breathing ( keeping lungs 1/2 full or 1/ 2 empty) as that takes too much concentration and I find myself enjoying the scenery less when I do this.
So once you start really focusing on your buoyancy, trim, and breathing techniques, you will find that a bcd is used to compensate for your depth and then your breathing technique will do the rest. If you need to assend 6inches, breath in a little deeper, and if you need to decend 6inches exhale. Once you go up or down a foot or 2, it is too much for your lungs to keep compensating, so you need to adjust you bcd again to get you neutral, and then go back to using you breathing technique to stay neutral. Just remember what you learned in open water about not holding your breath; just adjust your rate/proportions of inhale and exhale. Also, it is way easier to do this when you learn how to maintain a horizontal trim like a tech diver and frog kick.
Hello David Penton, this topic comes up a lot on our buoyancy related videos. BCD's, known of course as Buoyancy Compensating Devices, were not around back in the 50's, and divers wore weight to counter balance two things. One the natural positive buoyancy of their bodies, and the positive buoyancy of their exposure suits. This weight calculation was required for a specific depth of any given dive. Since square profiles were used for planning, multi level diving was not really a thing back then. Now that we use computers, divers can extend their time underwater, by progressively ascending to shallower depths and staying for longer times. As a diver ascends, to remain at that depth for a sufficient amount of time, a diver must be able to compensate for buoyancy changes on several factors. The two biggest of course being the loss of air, from usage, and the expansion rate of neoprene. In this video, we showed that the expansion rate of neoprene is not as dangerous as some claim, although a lot of this has to do with the type of neoprene that is being used today. So we need to address the other major variable, the usage of air. Just as a quick review of how much air weights, .08 lbs per cubic foot, if a diver starts with a full cylinder (80cf 3000psi) and ends with a third (26cf 1000psi) the golden standard for the rule of thirds, then he has breathed approximately 4 lbs of air, and thus only needs to compensate for 4 lbs of weight loss. This 4 pounds of difference is all that is needed to be calculated to achieve neutral buoyancy at safety stop depth. The weight added, via weight belt or integrated system is to make a diver neutrally buoyant, and thus the 4 additional pounds can be controlled with breathing. You can test this out in a pool. Take a 4 pound weight to the bottom. Attach a SMB to it. Then inflate the SMB and see how much of your breath it takes to lift the 4lb weight. In your Open Water course, your Instructor most likely taught you that as you breath in, your body will rise and as you exhale your body will sink. Basic Archimedes Principle, and I guarantee you, we all weigh more than 4 pounds. But we still choose to use BCD's to make our dive more practical. Its the same reason I own a truck. I could very easily walk to work everyday, but my truck makes it more convenient and comfortable. As far as breathing, try not to compare your breathing to other divers. A normal breath for you to fill your lungs may take 3-5 seconds, to where another diver it may take 8-10 seconds. The volume of air between divers will never be the same. I have learned over the years that breathing control is mastered by relaxation. The more relaxed I am, the deeper my breaths are. We made a video on how to reduce your SAC rate, which I will link here for you. th-cam.com/video/8KATAjl17mU/w-d-xo.html. I think you will find it helpful in several ways. As you dive more and more, you will start noticing that your weighting needs go down. This is usually because we become more relaxed. As we relax, we tend to slow our breathing process down, thus, exhaling more per breath. Don't forget, our lungs act like a natural BCD for us (Open Water 101), that pesky fin pivot our Instructors made us do. Hope this helps.
Pretty interesting topic. I was also taught to overweight, and my buddies echo it as well. Good thing I've never actually had any scares yet, altho I am new.
Hello NeoMc, glad to hear that you have not ever had any issues. Sadly, a lot of Instructors teach overweighting. Not saying they are bad Instructors, but in a lot of cases they are limited on time with students. Thus, they do what they have to, to get the students down and evaluated as quickly as possible. This is why we allow our Instructors to take all the time in the world to teach their students. This is another reason all of our courses are privately ran as well.
Hello Nogradi Csaba, in short, yes you are correct. The BCD is for comfort and convenience. It also adds an extra bit of safety, as another viewer posted, while dealing with emergencies at the surface. Even though I always dive a balanced rig, I would never suggest anyone diving without a BCD.
My wife just got a new BCD and this warning is actually in the manual. It states that the Small and X-Small size may not have enough lift capacity if you have a wetsuit thicker than 6mm at 99ft/30m. That was the first time I have ever heard about this. Overly cautious company lawyers?
I have dove many times in Lake Michigan at 41 degrees water temp to 130 ft wearing a 7mm wetsuit. Buoyancy and trim are not a problems...cold is. On the first dive you feel warm enough, but the cold catches up with you on your second dive. We do it all the time here...until we can afford a dry suit. :-) Perhaps the noted myth is among those who live in warmer climates? You don't hear it in these northern parts.
Hello Ron Beatty, you make a great point when it comes to choosing an exposure suit. Buoyancy and Trim should never be the issue (as this is controlled by the diver), but staying warm should. This claim was made by a training agency located in California. We have several other videos coming out in the near future addressing myths like these and why the majority of divers simply do not buy into them.
12:13 thanks for making me check my messages 😂 Most people around here only dove 7mm, and often with another layer, AL80's, no problems. Surprised this was a concern? But then again, that's what we learn in.
Hello Derek Walter, due to the cost of most Drysuits, the majority of divers, especially in colder environments learn in thick wetsuits. For the majority of divers, this isn't a concern. I would say to any competent diver, this should never be a concern, with proper weight of course.
Today is 6/1/23, I also had heard the Myth, or Concern, or Warning, Thank you, for Taking the Time, to show me just how Important it is, to Spend the Time, to get Properly Weighted, Great Job. I'm right now Trying to find a 7 mm full suit to fit my Dad Bod, I saw quite a few comments with guys my size 5'9" 220 Looks like XLS with room for the One Pack Ab, Damn gravity is a Cruel Bitch. Aloha Ben
I'm a new diver. I use a 5mm wetsuit. A steel 100. Halcyon blade and wing. Zero weights. My instructors don't believe in weighting to compensate for poor skills.
Hello Don Munro, I have always taught my students that weights are used to compensate for the positive buoyancy of the exposure suit we choose to wear, or for the natural positive buoyancy of our bodies. Our BCD's are used to compensate as we ascend and descend. The problem with today's training though, students are being overweighted from the beginning, because they are not relaxed, and Instructors are sometimes restricted with how much time they have to train students. With proper training, and patience, any diver can learn to control their buoyancy and trim, without overweighting themselves, regardless of what exposure suit they choose to wear.
What about full to empty weight difference in the aluminum 80? Would you not have to add weight so at the end of dive you are perfectly weight and balanced. We lose 5 pounds on the tank
I would assume that when Bryan says he's properly weighted he is including the end of the dive in that calculation. "Properly weighted" generally means no more weight than it takes to be neutral at 10-20 feet with a near empty cylinder.
Hello troop1026, that is a great question. As K B stated, I’ve already calculated for the weight loss of air being used. In our video on “How Much Weight I Need,” we talk about calculating the loss of air as well. th-cam.com/video/uYeuBJkWxQ4/w-d-xo.html
Unfortunately it shows how inexperienced you are to make a comment like this. Not on about how many dives you have but life experience. Divers are taught never to touch marine life, true. Why? Well when you take a child into a fine china shop you say "don't touch anything" not because they can't but because you are worried about them breaking something or hurting themselves. This is the same principle. You can touch marine life. If you know what you are doing. Should someone with no knowledge of that marine life touch? Hell no. Should someone with that knowledge touch? Yes asking as they are not causing any harm. Plenty of turtles, groupers, sharks and other marine life seek humans for interaction. And guess what if they don't want interaction they move away. Now if you chase that poor creature then again that is wrong. So as you see it's not as black and white as stating "don't touch"
Lol my first checkout dive was in 32 degree water ..I where a 5 mm with a 3 mm under that's how I learned ..no issue it's absolutely correct what your saying ..
Hello adhamh womble, several divers in our area will double up suits just like that as well. 32 degrees, which I assume you were in Saltwater, as freshwater freezes at 32 degrees, must have definitely been a shock to you. The good news, being able to withstand those temperatures, makes you better prepared for warming environments.
Wow that's cool . yesterday i was practicing on my byuancy in salt water wearing a 3mm full suit and i stuffed my bc with 21 lbs of lead and went down to 20 ft. I was able to surface without inflating my BC. I didn't even feel im too heavy. For freshwater i use 16lbs with a 3mmfull suit. Im 5'6 240lbs so i just figured out the perfect weight for me. Thanks for the great video 👍👍🦈
Hello John David, there is a link in the description of a POD-CAST, where the claim was made. It was shocking to us, as it came from a training agency. I will link it here for you as well. POD-CAST 33, utdscubadiving.com/podcasts/
Why did you even take a buoyancy compensating device with you for this experiment? If I'm only diving 100ft and swimming up to shore I do not use one. In my opinion a b c d for recreational purposes is just a way to turn yourself into an SMB. Useful for waiting for that boat to turn around but not much else. Thank you for your videos, you are awesome.
Hello don r, glad you liked the video. I tried to stay true to the claim that was made. This was the reason for the BCD. Also, in the event that I was unable to swim up (which there was no fear of), we were going to test the second part of the theory that a diver would need to ditch over half the weight needed just to ascend. Thankfully, that was not needed. I also wanted other to see that the choice of equipment really does not make a difference. Most see us here on the channel dive with Drysuits, Back Plate and Wings, Sidemount, and steel cylinders in back mount configuration. We wanted to show that even with a jacket style BCD, and an aluminum 80, with proper weighting, anyone can swim up with out ditching weights.
I'm impressed by 12lb. I can dive 12 lb with a steel tank or an AL63 and a semidry but I'm better off with 14 if I run the tank down. A drysuit doesn't really become mandatory until you get to steel doubles. The margins for a neutral rig get pretty slim. Snow diving in a wetsuit, lol. You're silly.
Hello Lars Dennert, glad you liked the video. Weight requirements between divers will always be different, as none of us are identical. I have never compared myself to others in those regards. The same applies with SAC rates. As divers we always tend to compete with others, but the reality is, it doesn't matter in the end. There are so many variables that change our SAC rate, I've gotten to the point that I only focus on mine and not others.
12 pounds is awesome brother 24-28 pounds was my goto when I started ice diving in a 7mm It's much less now in a dry suit but after this video I'm hitting the pool Godspeed
Glad you liked the video Josh D, and thank you. Its funny you mention needing less weight in a Drysuit. I wear both a neoprene Drysuit and a Trilaminate Drysuit, and typically depending on my undergarments, I too wear less weight with a Drysuit than with a 7mm wetsuit.
My daughter got nailed for hitting the elevator button on her ow checkout, she was kicking her butt off and couldn't swim up the 20 plus pounds. She is just a scouch over 5 foot tall and thin with a 5 mill, I wasn't happy
That claim you debunk is also nonsense because you would orally inflate your bcd, if you need to, not ditch your weights, which should be emergency out of air procedure only. Even if BCD had a hole in it, and couldn’t inflate at all, you shouldn’t be so overweighted that you’d need to ditch your primary front weight pouches. You could have your buddy remove trim weights. But if I was a student in that shop I’d want to know why whoever is claiming this has me so overalls weighted that I need to buy a dry suit? Which ironically is much harder to control your buoyancy because it’s a whole other airspace you have to control. So if they’re not teaching proper buoyancy without a dry suit… not to mention you can play the same what if game with a dry suit. Okay, instead of my bcd I have a hole in my dry suit, by their logic it’s back to the same problem. So yeah, I totally don’t get the original point and am happy you debunked it.
Unfortunately it shows how inexperienced you are to make a comment like this. Not on about how many dives you have but life experience. Divers are taught never to touch marine life, true. Why? Well when you take a child into a fine china shop you say "don't touch anything" not because they can't but because you are worried about them breaking something or hurting themselves. This is the same principle. You can touch marine life. If you know what you are doing. Should someone with no knowledge of that marine life touch? Hell no. Should someone with that knowledge touch? Yes asking as they are not causing any harm. Plenty of turtles, groupers, sharks and other marine life seek humans for interaction. And guess what if they don't want interaction they move away. Now if you chase that poor creature then again that is wrong. So as you see it's not as black and white as stating "don't touch" Btw great work Brian, really enjoy your videos. Look forward to them
Hello Matt Meza, to be honest, I believe it is a very small percentage of divers that buy into this claim, and ironically, they are from the California area. We have already began production on several other videos, addressing claims by that small percentage. So stay tuned for those videos as well. And I would love to come to Southern California to dive. I've always heard the National Park there was beautiful to dive.
This video doesn’t prove anything and potentially leads people into dives where they are at increased risk due to an unbalanced rig. A typical ‘7mm’ Farmer John style wet suit/semi dry has way too much compression to be considered safe practice with steel tanks. I say this having learned to dive in one - diving steel tanks. I needed 14kg of lead to break the surface (salt water) and at 20m depth, my BCD used to be full of gas (blowing off) trying to hover without finning. The bcd I had at that time had 14kg of lift. At least the agencies that highlight this issue make their students aware of this, unlike many of the mainstream ones where you charge extra for buoyancy courses, that should be taught from day 1. Safe diving.
Hello Neil Egerton, sorry to hear that you had such an incident from being overweighted. Glad to know you made it back to the surface without injury. Safe diving.
@@LakeHickoryScuba I wasn’t overweighted as this was the weight that was needed to submerge with a relatively brand new farmer John style suit. I was of course massively overweighted at only 20m when the suit (Beaver Icelandic) was compressed due to plain physics but I still had the weight as a constant. This proves the “myth” completely correct. Most DIR founded agencies have been making students aware of this for years, and rightly so. The rest might catch on in time, with any luck to increase awareness and safety. I still have access to a well used Beaver Icelandic do if you are ever in Ireland you can give it a go and I’ll film you. Won’t charge either 😀
BS, you did not do a vertical ascent and you were resting and holding onto the wreck at the deepeest point when you would be heaviest. If it is a safe configuration then why did you not swim up vertically? and you don't understand physics or vectors or you would understand that kicking up a angled line IS using your fins to facilitate the ascent. In addition, you failed to demonstrate that your weight was sufficient to hold a safety stop with no air in the tank. The reality of the situation is that you were under weighted and you were not wearing a thick hood, nor a two piece 7 mm suit which wouldfd have more bouyancy. You fail on this demo, Although I give you credit for going to 100 ft in cold water in a wetsuit.
Hello Whatandwhen2. Sorry to hear that you disagree with our video. Nevertheless, we appreciate you watching it and sharing your thoughts with us. Happy diving.
@@LakeHickoryScuba why don't you address the physics and the reality of the situation? You never demonstrated you had enough lead, you cheated on the ascent and you provide factually incorrect information about physics.
@@LakeHickoryScuba look at 8:53, clearly shows you holding yourself up off the wreck.. How can you disagree? Swimming at a 45 degree angle upward is causing half your fin propulsion to push you vertically and half forward. This is math and physics, on what basis can you disagree? LOL
Hello Whatand When2, in your first comment you stated I was underweighted. Now you are saying I had to hold myself up. We do appreciate you commenting on our video and the concerns in the matter, it shows you have a passion for this sport. If you feel our video is inaccurate in any way, we would be happy to have you join us on a dive. We will even cover your charter fee with us. We would also like to offer you a free Perfect Buoyancy course, at my expense, to help explain the math better for you. We look forward to working with you very soon. Happy Diving.
Hello Matt Meza, to be honest, I believe it is a very small percentage of divers that buy into this claim, and ironically, they are from the California area. We have already began production on several other videos, addressing claims by that small percentage. So stay tuned for those videos as well. And I would love to come to Southern California to dive. I've always heard the National Park there was beautiful to dive.
@@LakeHickoryScuba That's pretty crazy that it's coming from out here. The kelp diving in the national park is amazing. Check out the video on my channel if you have a chance! There's only one video there, you can't miss it.
@@LakeHickoryScuba Greatly appreciated. There's great diving up and down the coast. There's both liveaboards and day trips. The Spectre out of Ventura is extremely popular. Onboard air fills and bbq for lunch.
Great video! I actually encountered this myth just last Tuesday. I was diving with a group that I had never dived with before. They were all diving dry suits. I was diving a 7/5mm wetsuit. Someone presented this myth and said “we won’t be diving to 100 feet today”. I had never heard of this myth and because I was a lesser experienced diver than this person I didn’t debate it. I did a weight check with ten pounds and found it to be ok. I dove that weight and was fine but felt slightly under weighted. My next dive I added 2 pounds and it was perfect. We dove to only to 64 and 56 feet respectively but with the little amount I was using my bcd to compensate my buoyancy I knew I would be fine at deeper depths with a complete failure of a bcd. Anyway, I’m going to send my friend this video and have the discussion with him, because I agree with you.
Hello The Shoots And Ukes Channel, glad you found our video. Unfortunately, there are divers out their that follow certain philosophies over reality. To each his own. The key thing that we stress to our students is, never over weight yourself, and always practice the basic skills that you learned in Open Water, so that you can overcome any problem that is presented to you while underwater.
Love these videos. Really enjoy the real world science experiments. When I first started, I was overweighted by over 10lbs.. Couldn't understand why I was so bad at air, adding and subtracting air from BC, etc. Was a workout! After lots of diving, I figured it out and got it down big time.
Hello Joshua Dircks, glad you hear you got or weighting needs figured out. One of the things you mentioned is the key, lots and lots of diving. Sometimes that is all it takes, experience.
I didn't even know this was a myth...this is so ridiculous, whoever says you shouldn't be diving deeper than 100 ft with a 7mm wetsuit made for Scuba diving is an ignorant.
I took my 8mm Mares Flexa down to the sand at the RBJ in South Florida, 248 ft, and at no point I felt like a catastrophic wing failure would leave me no choice but to dump weight, I had 12 lbs on me and there is no chance I would've dropped weights if my wing (BCD) failed.
Plus, how can your BCD fail? The inflator button stops working? Orally inflate! Somebody stabbed your BCD at depth? Depending on the location of the hole you can still ascend! You BCD got hit by a torpedo and blew up completely? Use your SMB under your arms to add lift if needed.
There is very rarely a reason to drop weights in scuba diving, most problems can be solved if you stay calm and think of a solution.
Bryan, are you ready for another collab? How about we go underwater somewhere (warm though) and once we are at depth you stab a hole on my wing, and see how we recover from that?
Hey Gus, I can't wait to do another collaboration with you guys. As per our conversation via text, I too was slightly shocked at the claim, especially being who made it. I have been tied up all day, and have yet to watch the reaction video to our collaboration. All my staff have been texting me all day telling me how great it was. As soon as I get home, I am going to put it on the big screen and watch it. Tell Woody I said hello, and it was awesome diving with him.
Wings can and do fail. It's not terribly often but one of the more common ways comes from BCD jackets that have a pull dump in the elbow of the corrugated hose. They have the possibility of becoming disconnected at the elbow. I've also heard of the power inflator popping off when being pulled on. But even that is very uncommon and easily avoidable if you're not yanking on your corrugated hose. Anyway... I agree with you guys. This myth is asinine.
Love your channel. @20 yrs ago I was at 100 ft doing my navigation dive in a 2 piece 7mm off Monterey CA, I weighed 220 had 30lbs of weight. My bc had a leaking dump valve. I did a few pulls on the anchor line to start my accent with kicks did safely with a stop have never ditched weight. My instructors fixed the valve never suggested a dry suit , they did use dry n semi dry suits. Warmth in pacific being issue but honest about cost. I think I was weighted heavy by standards of the time. I guess I was lucky to have good instructors
Hello Keith Clayton, glad to hear that you did make it back to the surface safely. It also goes to show that even to some extent, a diver who is over weighted, can still swim up. I believe the key is to remain calm and to not panic. Two things to remember, there is a possibility that you were over weighted, but I assume you were in Saltwater, and cold water is more dense than freshwater, so more weight is usually required. Thanks for sharing your story with us.
You make a valid point to not just trust anything that's passed around. It's more important to understand the physics behind the claims and transfer those to yourself.
However I think in the latter you fail to acknowledge the whole picture. For example I'm a tall guy in a XXL 7 mm semi dry wetsuit plus 5 mm hooded vest. To be able to end a dive properly I need 9 kg of lead with a steel bottle. When assuming a compression of the Neopren resulting in a buoyancy of 1/3 as on the surface I'd end up being about 8 kg negative. This will be hard or impossible to swim up.
I think it's important to be aware of the physics involved and take some kind of precaution to mitigate the risks.
This can be avoiding to dive deeper than 100 feet, keeping your buddy close, having at least part of your weight removable, diving a drysuit or taking a DSMB with you.
And talking about BCDs not failing... There's a nice talk about Complacency from Edd Sorenson on TH-cam.
That said, it's impossible to find exact data on how any wetsuit will behave at what depth. Maybe I will take mine to 40 m at some point and measure its buoyancy with a spring scale.
Best regards
Glad you liked the video @maxtee2573.
How many different 7mm wet suits did you test? @UTD Scuba Diving @Ben Boss
Hello Just a Guy, for the video, we tested the Mares M-Flex 7.0.
@@LakeHickoryScuba So do you think this applies to all 7mm wet suits and body types?
Hello Just a Guy, as stated in the video, all wet suits are not created equal. However, Archimedes Principle remains the same. Any prudent diver understands their personal weighting needs will be different from others. So to answer your specific question, yes, based on Archimedes Principle and Boyle’s Law, the physics hold true. If you have a specific suit you would like for us to test, we will be happy for you to send it to us, and we can put it to the test for you.
I took the Buoyancy course with SSI and it was beneficial I also used it as one of the Pre-reqs for the Advanced Rating so it was worth it cost wise as well. One of the difficulties with weighting comes from changing up gear configurations. I don't dive as much as I like but I've spread 20-30 dives in a season between cold water thick wetsuit Salt water stuff, and warm salt water thin wetsuit stuff, Warm fresh water stuff, and cold fresh water stuff. steel tanks, aluminum tanks, and I just switched from a Jacket BCD to a BPW setup. So As much as I try keeping track of the different combinations in my logbook there is still a lot of trial and Error.
Hello Kevin Davison, hopefully, you will get more time to dive. The good news is, you are gaining experience with different setups and no matter what you wear, or how much weight you wear, you will be comfortable while underwater. This is what we like to see new divers do, as it makes them a more well rounded diver. This is what I teach new diver professionals as well. They need to be comfortable no matter what gear they wear. They are professionals by the way. The ones that have to rely on just one specific gear setup, becomes to reliant on the setup and not enough on their own skills and abilities.
Good to see it demonstrated! But 27F at the surface, 52F at the bottom; I'd still be wearing a drysuit! I did all my training up to AOW in wetsuits and I've never been so cold in my life! Now with a dry suit and dry gloves an hour or more in the 40s is no problem at all. But in warmer water, I agree; for that I use a 6mm semi-dry and when correctly weighted for the end of the dive I've never had trouble emptying the wing and swimming up from 100ft for practice.
Yeah about 8 months after did I my OW had already all my other gear and had made the decision that I wanted to dive often and dive at least once a month, I ended up ordering a dry suit. The near by lake we use for diving gets down to low 50s end of Nov to March or if you go deep enough during the summer months it maybe 101F outside and surface of 88F, but at 120ft its still 55F after the turbid layer and a couple thermoclines, lol.
Hello Tim Gosling, we would encourage Drysuit use as well over the 7mm, especially for after the dive. As you have seen in our other videos, we all dive Drysuits here in cold water, unfortunately, not everyone that dives can afford one. We did feel the need to address this issue, as the claims that were made (linked in the description) seemed a bit off to us. And from our experience were simply not true. Our main goal is to keep divers safe, and to teach them proper weighting. Whether they dive a 6mm, 7mm, Two Piece Farmer John, or a Drysuit of their choosing, we would never encourage anyone to ever over weight themselves. For the record, we did have a heated shed to change in after the dive. So 27 degrees was not an issue, just the walk back up was a little on the chilly side (ok, a lot on the cold side LOL).
@@LakeHickoryScuba All in the name of science. Good effort!
I dive in Cozumel in my 7mm semi dry (I get cold very easily) and I only needed 4lbs to compensate for al80 going 4ish lbs positive towards end of cylinder
Hello @willsmooth45, thanks for sharing with us. We all to often see divers overweighting themselves from improper training.
Brian thanks for your honesty while talking about sales. It’s good to hear that which I already knew, but great confirmation. So living in Michigan Ive done all my training in a 7 mm suit (except dry suit). I dive to 100’ every summer in the straits of Mackinaw in a 7mm or a 7/8mm semi-dry wetsuit. 12 lbs is exactly the weight I use and 14 is too much. I loved your experiment and physics doesn’t lie. It can be done, I do it often. Definitely, if you have to PULL yourself UP the line, your too heavy. Shame on anyone who claims otherwise. Thanks again. Keepm coming.
Hello Ken Temple, glad to hear that you liked the video. Our goal with this video is to show divers the importance of never over weighting themselves just to go down. We agree with you, that if you have to pull yourself up, you are over weighted. Based on some of the comments on this video, we have discussed producing a video on how much is too much weight. Another viewer asked specifically about how we manipulate our buoyancy with our breathing, and of course experience has a lot to do with this, but it would be interesting at least to see just how much one breath of air can compensate for each pound added. As @Max Torque stated, even with a small amount of extra weight, any competent diver with a set of fins on, should easily be able to swim their kit up.
Single-layer 7mm is totally doable (nice demo, as usual!), as its surface buoyancy is about 15 lbs. At that depth, you probably lose about 8-10 lb from compression, and the non-reserve air left in the tank was probably about 4 lbs. That makes the swim up about 13 lbs negative buoyancy (which gets easier as you ascend). For completeness, you should have shown you can hold the safety stop at reserve tank pressure, which would hopefully satisfy those who doubt that 12 lbs of lead makes you properly weighted.
Hello Paul Billings, glad you liked the video. While producing this video, we discussed the Safety Stop issue in great depth. Considering the video shows the descent at the beginning with out any struggles, we felt that this was sufficient to show that for my personal weight requirements 12 pounds was sufficient. We also considered the issue of not performing the stop, given the claim that was made by the agency. If we remember the basis to decompression theory, Safety Stops are only encourage and never required for any recreational dive with in the no decompression limits. We tried to hold true to the claim, with out adding any additional variables to the test. In an real emergency situation, given the Safety Stop is not actually required, we felt that most viewers would be reasonably prudent enough to understand that if I made it to the Safety Stop Depth, then the last 20 feet was possible. This was the other reason we decided to not show us ditching the weight at the bottom as the agency claimed would be necessary to make the ascent. Most of the major training agencies recommend to only ditch weight at the surface during a buoyancy related emergency, unless is was compounded with an out of air emergency as well. Here at Lake Hickory Scuba Center Inc., we agree with those agencies.
Now in regards to the reserve air meant for the foresaid Safety Stop. My weight calculations always take into consideration of the loss of weight, which we demonstrated in one of our older videos on how to calculate the proper weight (th-cam.com/video/uYeuBJkWxQ4/w-d-xo.html). Being a Sidemount Diver, who routinely dives Aluminum 80's, I eliminate the need for this calculation by taking it out of the formula all together. This helps me eliminate any ballast issues if I ever decide to remove a cylinder underwater. We can do the same thing with steel cylinders, although, this does contradicts the theory of never overweighting oneself while diving. By eliminating the ballast weight of a steel cylinder that is still negatively buoyant at the end of a dive, then we are essentially overweighting ourselves from the get go.
The last thing divers need to remember is, the most important thing we should consider is proper gear maintenance and servicing. Other than minor leaks in valves and OPV's in the last 34 years of diving, I have never had a catastrophic failure in my BCD. To say it happens enough to keep us from diving to 100 feet is completely absurd. Preventing an issue will always out weigh the what if's.
Your clip will help a lot I hope, because I know how it felt to be overweight, when I did my deep dive, I had 12kg because I choosed 15l tank, which I knew was perfect to me, I did few more guided dives, I really wanted to go to 40m with my dive instructor, so from my experiance I did the math:12l =10kg, 15l=12kg, which means 18l=14kg. He kept me doing, because I guess he trusted me, we did the dive to 42m, everything was finde until we get back to the boat. He told me smiling: don't you think you were overweighted? I told him about my math, which made kind of sence to him, the captain, a kind girl heard us and she said: 15l or 18l aren't this much different, so when I did the secound dive with the 18l, I kept the 12kg. Which was perfect, to be honest I'm very thankful to my dive instructor keep me doing, it was just we both and it was a save dive, I'm the kind of person who love to risk, I don't mean if it would become Dangerous, but me it helpped a lot, to get this experiance, because no I know what weight I need if I would choose a 18l again. But which really wonders to me? Was my math so wrong, because 2kg more between 12l and 15l was always perfect. So I really wonder is there a kind of rule? :)
To me he is one of the best instructor, because he just let me die, I guess He knews 12kg or 14kg isn't a big deal, where we dove we reached the bottom so I couldn't go deeper, I prefer those kind of instructor who just give s chance doing little mistakes by yourself, I'm thankful, because my fault was in a save place, I learned a lot, if I had still believed my math is perfect, I don't know what would happen if I would go to the blue whole with 18l and 14kg.
My you think bit different, but I like those instructor who let the student do, as long as it's not totally dangerous, or let them and just stop them before they go into the water. Like: okay you think you would need 20kg, here you are now walk few steps, so are you still sure you need this much? 😁
Except dangerous mistakes, as long as you learn something, aren't real mistakes.
I wonder what you think, I would love to know what you think about my math and what I think about risks.
Hello @benheckendorn2696, the absolute safest and best way to get your weight needs under control is to practice in a pool. Have two cylinders, one with 500 psi and one that is full. Weight yourself properly with the cylinder that is nearly empty, and this will allow you to be properly weight for the end of the dive. Of course once you switch over to your full cylinder, you will be slightly heavy, this is because of the weight of the air in the cylinder. But you should however, still be able to swim that cylinder up during and emergency. And don't forget, you are still wearing the BCD, so the additional 4-6 pounds that the air adds, can easily be compensated for. Hope this helps.
Bryan, Great video. I loved a comment that you you said that the dive industry has a problem with over weighting students, which needs to stop!!!!!!. I teach my students proper weighting from the start. The rest of the video was great. I have also dispelled the 7mm myth.
Hello Ray Brienza, glad you liked the video. I cringe every time I see an Instructor continue to just add weight to a student to get them to sink, instead of working with them on breathing control and relaxation to help them descend. Very recently, I took in a referral student, and during their Open Water dives, which was in a 3mm wetsuit, in freshwater, they asked for 30 pounds. It floored me for a minute, and when asked why they felt like they need that much weight, their response was, "Well that's what my Instructor said I needed." So needless to say, I took him back to the pool for some buoyancy work before I took him to Open Water. It turns out, he only need 8 pounds to get neutrally buoyant with an empty cylinder. After receiving his certification, he stated he would never go back to the other Instructor.
This is the first time I’ve heard about that myth… fortunately, because I have dived many times with a 7 mm wetsuit…
I don’t really understand why someone could use such tactics to sell a dry suit. I mean, a dry suit is easily sold once you have tried it. Once I owned one I got rid of my 7 mm right away…
Hello Pablo Arrieta, this was the biggest issue we had with the claim. As a diver that has grown up diving neoprene suits since the 1980's, I've never really understood why such claims are made. There are plenty of ways to sell a Drysuit other than misinformation. We encourage Drysuit diving, and personally, I own several that I use daily. And you are correct. Usually, it only takes one dive in a Drysuit to sell one.
Yeah first I have ever heard of that myth before as well. Back when I did my Deep Dive course, I was in a 7mm, hood etc.. and we to100ft after sticking my arm in the mud to get that extra half of foot on my computer for my log the local lake lol. Had no issues with buoyancy other than given I was still quite green then, was probably slightly overweighed.
Great video Bryan!
Same I dive in the Midwest with 5mm and 7mm. Never heard of this myth, bit it was informative.
Great demo. I fully agree that proper weighting is important. Also it is nice feeling when you don't need to play with the inflator all the time. Some other cosequences are better trim and lower air consumption. Something worth to put some effort.
Proper weighting is not only for wet suit divers. It is worth of effort for dry suit divers, too. And the reasons are mainly the same.
Glad you liked the video Mikko Sport. You make some great points. With proper weighting, a diver tends to have better trim and lower air consumption as well.
I would be so dead if this myth were true! Good to see your videos again, the youtube algorithm is throwing me crap content and hiding my favourite channels.
Hello Llama, glad you found our channel again.
That was a great demo. Normally I am slightly overweight because I’m usually on the bottom searching and prefer it but you look roughly same size as myself. I’m 220 5’9. I will say I never usually change weights because I will go fresh to salt water on occasion so my weights are set. Except for ankle weights if I use my drysuit,I think I will reconsider and review my trim again. Thanks for the demo
Hello Pacediver, glad you liked the video. Currently, I am 5'7", and my weight fluctuates between 195lbs-215lbs. During our busy season, when I am not only running the shop, but working on my family farm, I can drop down to 185lbs. This does effect my weighting needs depending on my exposure suit choice of the day. But its rarely more or less than around 5lbs of difference. One of the topics we discuss in our Perfect Buoyancy Course is, the worst thing a diver can do, is compare themselves to other divers. We all have our own individual weight needs, and will never be identical to others. In this video, I stated several times that we should never overweight ourselves, and even though this still holds true, there are exceptions. I guess I could clarify and say, "Never overweight yourself to the point you still could not physically swim up without the need to ditch your weights." Like you, while searching on the bottom, especially in a strong current, I too opt to go heavy, to assist with stabilization while on the bottom. We have a video coming out on February 25th, that I think you will find very interesting as well. Specifically relating to ankle weight use, drysuits, and fins. So stay tuned for that. Lastly, and something that will be addressed in that future video as well, is the angle of trim. Sometimes divers get to focused on being trimmed at 0 degrees, which is not the most efficient angle in regards to drag and breathing efficiency.
Great video. Tank will become more buoyant as the pressure drops. It would be more difficult to stay at your safety stop.
Glad you liked the video Gary Anji. In the Weight Calculation video we linked in the description, we discussed that very issue, and we show how to calculate proper weighting even with a tank that is not completely full.
I know you set out to disprove this particular case, but there are definitely cases where someone cannot swim up (even when properly weighted). Being tired/cramped is an obvious complication that could impact even the single-layer 7mm case you tested. More importantly, I'd say the real danger lies with double-layer / farmer-john suits, where folks have to fight 20 lbs (or more) of negative buoyancy to get off the bottom. (This is again, properly weighted: neutral at a safety stop at reserve tank pressure with empty wing.) Redundant buoyancy (whether that's a trusty buddy, a second bladder, or a DSMB or similar) is a good idea when 7+ mm wetsuits are involved.
Hello Paul Billings, you make a compelling argument in regards to cramps and other physical handicaps that may develop. However, when it comes to physics, the physics never change. If you are properly weighted for the depth you are at (this includes the exposure suit of choice), all a diver would need to do is simply inhale. Just as we teach divers in the open water program, simply by breathing the body rises with each inhale. Thus, if you are properly weighted, taking a deep controlled breath would be enough to break the plain of neutral buoyancy they had already achieved by being properly weighted. Once this occurs, then they could control their ascent as I show here in this video (th-cam.com/video/r0MPhC7nuBA/w-d-xo.html).
I will state this though, there is a huge difference between an experienced diver and a newer diver, and that of course is experience. Remaining calm is key as well. If we think of the basic theory of Archimedes Principle, the overwhelming majority of humans are naturally positively buoyant at the surface, and if remained calm would naturally float even if they couldn't swim. Its when panic sets in, that they go under and begin to take on water. This same theory would apply at depth, as most inexperienced divers would begin to let stress take over, and most likely resort to letting panic set in. In that case, your argument would be correct.
The two major points that we would like for divers to learn from this video is this. First, and most important, never overweight yourself, which is achievable in any exposure suit and second, practice, practice, practice.
@@LakeHickoryScuba when properly weighted, the ONLY things the wing compensates for is suit compression and non-reserve gas you haven't yet breathed. When the wing fails, the combination of inhalation and kicking may not be enough in some cases. You absolutely debunked the 7mm myth, but some people use more neoprene than that or have smaller lungs than you or can't kick as hard as you did. I'm just saying everyone should consider their particular situation and ideally do the very simulation you performed themselves. (This, of course, being right in line with the two major takeaways you mentioned.) Cheers!
I think people perhaps fail to understand the basic concept of "proper weighting"
1) Why do we need weight? Because with our kit on, we are less dense than water, so we float (ok, pretty obvious this one, but worth stating!)
2) What factors change our buoyancy with depth? Compression of our kit (reduced volume = reduced buoyancy)
3) What factors change our buoyancy with time? Exhation of our breathing gas during the dive (lower mass of gas = increased buoyancy)
which leads too:
4) What is the correct weighing? The MINIMUM amount of additional fixed (ie attached to us somehow) ballast to ensure that we can accurately and safely control our depth at all stages of our dive. This is not a fixed or finite amount of course, and depends on the exact dive we are about to do.
Clearly factors 2) and 3) work in opposing directions. We tend to start our dives with a full (heavy) cylinder and on the surface, ie at a shallow depth (least compression, most buoyancy) but we tend to end our dives back on the surface (most buoyancy) but with an empty (ish) cylinder. This makes the critical point for our dive mostly likely to be our final safety stop.
As accurately stated in this vid, the BCD is their to compensate for 2) & 3) For open circuit scuba the use/loss of breathing gas is unavoidable, so we have to start the dive with enough ballast to account for the mass of air we plan to use, and hence use our BCD initally to compensate for that extra ballast. However, really, unless you are diving with large doubles, then the sort of masses of breathing air we are talking about are between 1.5 and 3 kg. This means that a BCD failure leaves us with a total negative buoyancy of just 3kg. This for anyone wearing fins and with the ability to breath in fully (your lungs are around 6 litres / 6kg or more and they are the most reliable BDC you have!) should, as demonstrated in this video, pose absolutely no issue what-so-ever in terms of being able to initiate an ascent.
For anyone new or perhaps unsure, i'd recommend two simple tests, that can really be carried out on pretty much any dive:
1) On your final safety stop, just before you surface, get into the habbit of establishing an idea of just how much air is actually in your BCD. YOu can do this by actually letting it all out (you may be surprised by how much air is in there!) or by simply reaching behind you and feeling how full your BCD's bladder is. Do this on dives with different conditions and set-ups and you'll soon get a picture of your excess buoyancy at this critical part of the dive.
2) Establish what you can swim up against in terms of ballast: This really requires a pool or shallow site to do safely, and make sure your buddy knows what you are doing and is watching for any problems. Grab some spare weights start with around 2kg or so, in your hands, or in a mesh bag or similar. Descend to the bottom (3m is plenty deep enough), vent your bcd fully, and try and swim up. IME, anyone who is a competent swimmer, wearing fins, can actually swim up with a surprising amount of mass, especially if they use their lungs to act as the BCD (remember to exhale / breath as you start to ascend of course!). Once you've done it with fins, try it bare foot. What this does is give you confidence you can in fact cope without a bcd in most cases.
Hello Max Torque, thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. I agree with you 100%. And what's troubling to me, when I first heard the claim (as it was pointed out by another viewer), I had to listen to the entire POD-CAST multiple times (which is over 40 minutes long), as they start out in the same direction as you. They do an excellent job of explaining why we need weights to begin with. Then they back track and throw physics right out the door. They even joke and say that even though its basic math (which I believe he means physics), the very next sentence he claims the math does not apply, as its completely impossible for any human to perform. Even with out testing the claim myself, I could make a basic observation by seeing all the 100's, or 1,000's, if not 10's of 1,000's of divers in the world that routinely dive a 7mm to 100ft while using an aluminum 80, and confidently say the claim is motivated by personal biased or philosophy driven. Either way, it simply is not true based on the factors we have tested.
Wonderfully done Bryan!
I too struggle to understand why this agency continues to say this about 7mm suits. Of the 3 "dir" agencies they're the only one's I've heard say this. Thanks for doing this video. I'll shoot you an email if I think of other similar ideas you may like to test. Maybe I can make it over to Lake Hickory sometime for a dive.
Thanks K B, glad you liked the video. We have another one coming out on February 25th, that I think you will find interesting as well. Personally, I don't have any thing against any agency or Instructor. This was a very interesting topic though, as we talked about. 100's if not 1000's of divers dive a specific way, safely and routinely. Even back in the 50's, when BCD's were not common, diver's never seem to have issues with buoyancy control or proper weighting. It was very common to weight yourself for the depth you were going to, and based on the exposure suit you were wearing. I think one of the things that causes controversy in this specific topic, is certain divers can't comprehend that none of us are identical, and they try to compare themselves to each other. We all will have different weighting needs. Viewers will watch one of our videos, and they get upset with the lack of weights we wear, yet it takes them a sufficiently more amount of weight to dive neutral. There are several factors on why this is the case. The best advice I can offer anyone is to, just focus on themselves. Thanks again for the video idea.
@@LakeHickoryScuba totally agree. And on a totally unrelated note, would you be willing to do a video on your personal PSD gear configuration sometime? I'm also an ERDI public saftey diver and volunteer on a local team. I'm curious what other teams are doing. Especially those who use a BP/W for public saftey dives.
Hello from the UK. Great video thanks.
I switch between a 7.5mm semi-dry suit in the warmer months, then add a "sorty" style 7.5mm wet suit over my core. The 7.5mm semi dry on its own requires 12Kg (26.5lbs) and with the core Shorty, I cant get down unless my weight is increased to 15Kg (33Lbs),
In the really cold winter months, I use a scubapro dry suit, and need 16Kg (35lbs) to get neutrality buoyant.
When I was in warmer climes, I was diving with 6Kg (13Lbs) with a 5mm wetsuit.
Always thought I was over-weighted, however after trialling less weights with every suit, these weights are correct.
I'm assuming the semi-dry suits are way more buoyant than wetsuits with the same thickness? Then again at a combined thickness of 15mm, it's not surprising!
All tested in salt water.
👌
Hello Graham F, saltwater makes a huge difference. The density of saltwater compared to freshwater can account for the extra weight you need. In this video here we discuss that very issue. th-cam.com/video/uYeuBJkWxQ4/w-d-xo.html. As far as Semi-Drys, and standard neoprene suits of the same thickness, it all depends on the material used, the construction of the suit, and the seals used. I've had several Semi-Dry's over the years, and most had gaskets with non waterproof seals, and some had water proof seals, with non water proof zippers. And other had water proof seals, and water proof zippers, but non water proof seams. I've also owned suits made of Rubatex that did not compress at all at depth. All the factors play a role in weighting needs.
@@LakeHickoryScuba Thank you! I'll check out your other video. You're a brave guy diving in a wet suit! Looks v cold 🥶
Thanks Graham F, it still amazes me on how well neoprene insulates us. Of course having a proper fitting suit makes a huge difference.
Agree 100'%. I would just add that buoyancy depends on type of neoprene as well but difference is maybe not big enough to incalculate it. Greets.
You are correct pucioy, the type of neoprene, and the thickness will make a difference, but rarely is it enough to change the weighting needs of a diver to the point they are over weighted.
7mm feels like 1 mm at 100 feet in the Great Lakes 🥶. Great video..
There may be a difference in the Farmer John style 7mm in its dual layer set up. There's a lot of neoprene compression and expansion going on...
Hello Scott denzer, depending on the type of neoprene that is used, and the proper fit of suit, the insulated capacity of suit will change. With a Farmer John, the added buoyancy is usually around the center of mass of the diver, but offers some of the best thermal protection while at depth. This is another reason I chose to use the Mares Ultra Skin top under the 7mm. Added thermal protection with no added buoyancy. Trying to follow the claim as closely as I could, which was a 7mm suit, aluminum 80, and 100 feet of water. I will state that in my experience, even though I obviously dive a Drysuit in colder environments (as we have shown in our other videos), I've never had any issues with 7mm suits, with a ton of different brands, and staying warm during dives. The key of course, the suit has to be properly fitted. I would love to come up to the Great Lakes to do some diving. Got any recommendations of some great dive sites.
"There may be a difference in the Farmer John style 7mm in its dual layer set up. There's a lot of neoprene compression and expansion going on."
A lot going on, indeed. I dive a 7mm Farmer John in cold water, so it's 7mm on my arms and legs, but 14mm over my torso. When I did my open water course, my instructors were shocked at how much weight I needed in order to get below the surface in salt water. I'm 6'5" and 210 pounds, so there's a LOT of foam covering me. I needed 42 pounds of lead. Now that my suit has been used, it has compressed a bit and I only need 38 pounds. ("Only" 38 pounds?) Even when I was carrying 42 pounds, though, I had no problem ascending from 60 feet with an empty BCD. Moderate finning with good fins was all it took.
Most divers in my area (Puget Sound) use dry suits, though, and I just bought one for myself so I'm looking forward to shedding some weight.
Great video Bryan. Well done. 👍
Where does this type of complete BS come from? I used to dive a .25" (6.35mm), farmer john wetsuit (so my entire torso area was covered by .5" (12.7mm) of neoprene) in the great lakes while diving wrecks. I ran 80 cu.ft. tanks, and sometimes my double 80's. I wore 12-14 lbs. of lead and rarely used my BCD. I spent a whole bunch of time diving below 100' and never once had any issues with buoyancy.
SMH...
😲😲Oh, good lord!!! I just listened to the Podcast these people put out. I listened to #10 first since it was on weighting. Not only are they spouting this complete BS on 7mm wetsuits at depth. Then they follow it up with putting your weight belt on and THEN putting on your back plate and wing over the top and hooking the crotch strap OVER the top of the weight belt, and then to look in to putting additional "ditchable " weight in pockets. Where do they find these people? And then I listen to #33 and these guys are spouting this garbage live to a group in Las Vegas...
WOW. No wonder we have so many confused divers out there....
Hello Sam Moyers. I wished I had a more definitive answer for you. I'm not sure if they preach this to their students because they truly believe it, or if its their way of pushing for Drysuit sales (which they manufacture themselves). Either way, its simply not true.
@@LakeHickoryScuba Thanks Bryan. It was more a rhetorical question. These kind of folks are in every part of life, spouting lunacy just to hear their voices. And the internet gives them unlimited access.
Fortunately their are places like Lake Hickory SCUBA, to set the record straight.
Thanks again for your excellent content.
Dive Safe
thoughts on ditchable weights for ditching at the surface while helping another diver...? I enjoy non ditchable weight on my tank straps for trim nice and close to the backplate, but wonder about merit of ditchable weight for surface emergencies
Hello Jon Ramsay, as most of our viewers know by now, I am a huge fan and advocate of balanced rigs, and rarely do I dive ditch-able weights. This does not mean that I'm against them in any way shape or form, because as this video shows, you can have a balanced rig and still have ditch-able weights. I would actually encourage all divers, especially as they are starting out to always have some weight that is ditch-able. A good reason for this is as you stated, emergency situations while helping another diver. Unfortunately, there are times when ditch-able weights are difficult to justify, such as when I dive Sidemount. This is where proper weighting and training comes in. As we progress as divers, we learn how to manipulate our bodies in the water column with our breathing, and not so much with our equipment. We have a video coming out on February 25th, talking about this very topic (manipulating your equipment and not letting your equipment manipulate you), so stay tuned for that. But getting back to ditch-able weights, it really comes down to comfort level and the buddy you are diving with. If a diver wants to merge away from ditch-able weights, then I would suggest practicing as much as possible in a pool setting, doing emergency ascent skills, and really focusing on their buoyancy. Eventually, they will get to a point where they can manipulate their buoyancy without ever touching their BCD. This is when true mastering of buoyancy becomes a reality.
A great video and very informative. Would love to see your weight requirements with a Trilaminate Drysuit, thick undersuit like a Santi400 and a single steel 12Litre cylinder.
Hello HobbyMan UK, if you saw the video we did on Flooded Drysuits, you can see that exact setup. I will link it here for you. th-cam.com/video/xSPi-67H51I/w-d-xo.html. Spoiler Alert 8 pounds.
@@LakeHickoryScuba thanks ….I will check it out!
What are your thoughts on double steal (usual double 12L here in Europe) tank and 7 mm wetsuit? An excellent video like always...
Hello Bojan Boskovic, this topic is very hot here in the States. There are so many options when it comes to plates with doubles. If we look at the Mares XR line, there is a 3mm steel plate, a 6mm steel plate, a 3mm aluminum plate, and a soft plate. 3 of those I currently use, depending on what cylinder I dive. The same rules apply, regardless of the cylinders. I encourage all divers to never over weight themselves. We have a video coming out in March referring to the DIR Philosophy, which many DIR divers believe there are specific situations of when an aluminum vs steel plate should be used, primarily with neoprene in saltwater while wearing doubles. My thoughts are simple. Once you determine your overall weighting requirements, including the natural ballast weight of your rig, and then you determine how much physical gas you need for a given dive (based on your RMV rate), then you can choose the appropriate size cylinder, that meets your supply needs and your weighting needs. For what it is worth, I currently have a set of Steel 80's doubled up, with a 3mm steel back plate (which will be featured in an upcoming video), that I can wear with a 3mm suit, a 7mm suit, a neoprene drysuit, and multiple trilaminate drysuits, and regardless of what I wear, I rarely wear any weights with it, both in freshwater and saltwater. Now obviously, I am overweight in freshwater with a 3mm suit, but when the dive calls for that much gas (my salvage dives), then I can make it work. Just like this video, I can still swim them up with out much trouble.
@@LakeHickoryScuba I didn't expect such a detailed and comprehensive answer... Thanks a lot... Keep up with the good work...
Wow… I’ve never heard of this myth before. In the UK it’s all drysuit diving, but when abroad I also use a 7mm wetsuit with the usual abroad Ali 80 (standard in the UK is a steel 12 or 15ltr) and never had a thought about it. Bob on with what you say about being weighted correctly. Over weighted causes way more problems than it solves so absolutely spend the time to get it right from the start. Thanks for an interesting vid 😎👍
Glad you liked the video UKDiver. You are correct, over weighting can cause so many issues.
Hi, been a fan of your videos for quite a while. very informative, professional and to the point. quick question out of curiosity. you were carrying 12lbs on this dive. How much do you estimate you would carry with the same gear in salt water??
Great question. 4 ילעד יעקבזן •, Typically if I am in Salt Water and the water is cold enough, I will either been wearing a 5mm Graph-flex or a Drysuit. With the 5mm Graph-flex and an Aluminum 80, I wear between 10-12 pounds. In a Drysuit, usually I will wear 15-18 pounds, depending on if I wear my Neoprene Drysuit or my Trilaminate Drysuit. Saltwater, being more dense than Freshwater, will always require more weight. In this video, we tried to address the claim as it was stated, which was a 7mm wetsuit and an aluminum 80. Though I still believe in a 7mm neoprene suit, as you saw, I had to grab a brand new one straight off the shelf, as I currently do not own one. I usually go from a 3mm, to a 5mm, to a Drysuit.
@@LakeHickoryScuba thanks for the quick response. I totally agree with the concept that if you are properly weighted there is no reason to ditch weights at any depth with any type of configuration. the mastery of neutral buoyancy is one of the most important fundamentals in scuba diving and is taught wrong from the beginning instilling the wrong idea in the minds of students and is very hard to get rid of further on up the road. again, thanks for the great materials you post. keep up the good work and safe diving.
Good video. Whats your opinion on 7mm based on that water temperature? Debating on 7mm or dry suit next year.
Personally I've been diving a drysuit and I wasn't particularly warm in it but managed to withstand an hour long dive and after that I just got the drysuit off and got in the car. I don't know how long you would be able to dive a wetsuit for but it would definitely be an extremely uncomfortable dive and taking it off and getting into dry clothes would be absolute torture in such weather.
Hello Robert Griffis, this is a tough one. It all comes down to your personal tolerance for cold water. I personally dive many different Drysuits, which we have produced several videos on.
This one specifically, we show you all the different models I am currently diving. th-cam.com/video/AZz5_W2t-Yk/w-d-xo.html
My choices are based off personal needs, and personal comfort. With Drysuits, undergarments make a huge difference in comfort and warmth. Finding the right match can only be done by trial and error. All divers will have their favorites, but their favorites most likely will not work for everyone, my included.
My suggestion is to go by your local training center, and see what options they have. If they don't sell Drysuits, then find one that does, and see if they have a rental program. Of course, make sure you get properly trained on how to use it first. A lot of shops like ours, include the Drysuit course free of charge with the purchase of a suit. So make sure to ask about that as well.
i think this idea stems from your wetsuit losing all buoyancy by the time you reach 100 ft, and if its a 7mm wetsuit that could be around 20-25 lbs depending on what size you are...so your bcd would need to be able to compensate by the same amount in order to maintain neutral buoyancy?
Hello Donkey Kong, great name by the way. We are planning a video in the near future, where we intending on testing out the buoyancy characteristics of different neoprene thickness at depth. Hopefully the results will be noteworthy.
I realized I'm fine with 10-12 kg (12L or 15L tank) on salt water. And around 6-8kg for fresh water.
I realized I'm maybe 2kg over weighted, but with 36 loged dives, I still use more air, so those 2kg are just something little a safety weight not to rise too fast, secoundly I guess 2kg isn't a big deal, I guess those 2kg more can be handled without ever need to be dropped.
I would love to know what you think.
Hello @benheckendorn2696, truth be told, a lot of Dive Instructors will overweight themselves with about 4-5lbs extra, so if they need to hand off weight to students they can. As long as you can still swim the weight up, you should be just fine.
I was surprised you only had 12 lbs. Seems like when I dive my 7m semi-dry I need lots of weight. I'm 6', 215 lbs and took 36 lbs w/ a steel tank recently. I have no doubt I'm overweighted but I really struggle to get down if I don't. Does that seem absurdly high or do some people just take that much to get down? I'm assuming the former and there's something I need to be doing better. Thanks for the informative video!
Brian 36 pounds with a steel tank is a huge amount of weight. My standard gear is full 7mm Henderson and I am 6’2, and weighed 195lbs my last dive. I carry a total of 14lbs of lead and I drop after like a stone after descending 20 feet when my BCD is empty. I have Henderson Aqualock which is also a semi-dry. You must have some trapped air, make sure your BCD is empty. You are far too heavily weighted and that can be unsafe.
@@ericburgess4995 Yeah, I figured. I will work on it. Thank you
Brian, try this weight calculator to get you close, and then add/remove as needed from there. Hopefully you have a nice pool somewhere to practice in! www.divebuddy.com/calculator/weight.aspx
I wear a 7mm wetsuit and weigh 190lbs and use 12-14 lbs with a steel 100. My dive buddy weighs about 280-290lbs and uses 18 lbs (disclaimer: he wears a 5mm) also with a steel 100. I'm certain there are factors outside of body weight that are causing you to need so much weight to get down. I would recommend looking at it from the perspective of it being someone else's problem and you're trying to help them get through it. That's worked for me before.
Hello Brian Daily, the worst thing we can do is compare our personal weighting needs to others. Just as a comparison, I'm 5'7", and my weight fluctuates between 185-215 pounds depending on the time of the year. I routinely dive 4 different Drysuits, which you can see here in this video th-cam.com/video/AZz5_W2t-Yk/w-d-xo.html, and my weighting needs change daily. The biggest advice I can give you is, GO DIVING. The more we dive, we will notice that our weighting needs change, and usually becomes less. The link @FFAdventures provided is a great starting point. We too produced a video showing you the long math in calculating weighting needs th-cam.com/video/uYeuBJkWxQ4/w-d-xo.html. But both of these are only starting points. The worst thing we can ever do, is over weight ourselves.
I have 48 logged dives, and I’ve really started to focus on buoyancy & trim the last 10 dives… I dive in SoCal in a 7mm with a 3mm vest/hood and typically a steel 100… I’m currently using 14# total (all in front, no trim weights) which seems to be about right at the end of my dives.
I heard you say use your lungs for buoyancy control, not your BCD - could you expand on this more please? Does that indicate that when properly weighted our BCD should be a “set it & forget it” item and we don’t need to add/purge air throughout a dive? I am wondering if I am still a tad overweighted since I do play w my air throughout the dive - especially on my ascent when I have to purge quite a bit to not ascend too fast.
I have very large lung capacity, and I can really notice my buoyancy change simply by breathing, but I also don’t want to spend an entire dive short breathing ( keeping lungs 1/2 full or 1/ 2 empty) as that takes too much concentration and I find myself enjoying the scenery less when I do this.
So once you start really focusing on your buoyancy, trim, and breathing techniques, you will find that a bcd is used to compensate for your depth and then your breathing technique will do the rest. If you need to assend 6inches, breath in a little deeper, and if you need to decend 6inches exhale. Once you go up or down a foot or 2, it is too much for your lungs to keep compensating, so you need to adjust you bcd again to get you neutral, and then go back to using you breathing technique to stay neutral. Just remember what you learned in open water about not holding your breath; just adjust your rate/proportions of inhale and exhale. Also, it is way easier to do this when you learn how to maintain a horizontal trim like a tech diver and frog kick.
Hello David Penton, this topic comes up a lot on our buoyancy related videos. BCD's, known of course as Buoyancy Compensating Devices, were not around back in the 50's, and divers wore weight to counter balance two things. One the natural positive buoyancy of their bodies, and the positive buoyancy of their exposure suits. This weight calculation was required for a specific depth of any given dive. Since square profiles were used for planning, multi level diving was not really a thing back then. Now that we use computers, divers can extend their time underwater, by progressively ascending to shallower depths and staying for longer times. As a diver ascends, to remain at that depth for a sufficient amount of time, a diver must be able to compensate for buoyancy changes on several factors. The two biggest of course being the loss of air, from usage, and the expansion rate of neoprene.
In this video, we showed that the expansion rate of neoprene is not as dangerous as some claim, although a lot of this has to do with the type of neoprene that is being used today. So we need to address the other major variable, the usage of air. Just as a quick review of how much air weights, .08 lbs per cubic foot, if a diver starts with a full cylinder (80cf 3000psi) and ends with a third (26cf 1000psi) the golden standard for the rule of thirds, then he has breathed approximately 4 lbs of air, and thus only needs to compensate for 4 lbs of weight loss. This 4 pounds of difference is all that is needed to be calculated to achieve neutral buoyancy at safety stop depth. The weight added, via weight belt or integrated system is to make a diver neutrally buoyant, and thus the 4 additional pounds can be controlled with breathing. You can test this out in a pool. Take a 4 pound weight to the bottom. Attach a SMB to it. Then inflate the SMB and see how much of your breath it takes to lift the 4lb weight. In your Open Water course, your Instructor most likely taught you that as you breath in, your body will rise and as you exhale your body will sink. Basic Archimedes Principle, and I guarantee you, we all weigh more than 4 pounds. But we still choose to use BCD's to make our dive more practical. Its the same reason I own a truck. I could very easily walk to work everyday, but my truck makes it more convenient and comfortable.
As far as breathing, try not to compare your breathing to other divers. A normal breath for you to fill your lungs may take 3-5 seconds, to where another diver it may take 8-10 seconds. The volume of air between divers will never be the same. I have learned over the years that breathing control is mastered by relaxation. The more relaxed I am, the deeper my breaths are. We made a video on how to reduce your SAC rate, which I will link here for you. th-cam.com/video/8KATAjl17mU/w-d-xo.html. I think you will find it helpful in several ways. As you dive more and more, you will start noticing that your weighting needs go down. This is usually because we become more relaxed. As we relax, we tend to slow our breathing process down, thus, exhaling more per breath. Don't forget, our lungs act like a natural BCD for us (Open Water 101), that pesky fin pivot our Instructors made us do. Hope this helps.
Great Video and Demonstration....up until 15.24 ;-)
Hello Regina Eckert, glad you liked the video.
Pretty interesting topic. I was also taught to overweight, and my buddies echo it as well. Good thing I've never actually had any scares yet, altho I am new.
Hello NeoMc, glad to hear that you have not ever had any issues. Sadly, a lot of Instructors teach overweighting. Not saying they are bad Instructors, but in a lot of cases they are limited on time with students. Thus, they do what they have to, to get the students down and evaluated as quickly as possible. This is why we allow our Instructors to take all the time in the world to teach their students. This is another reason all of our courses are privately ran as well.
I am just wondering, why do we use bc??? According this very interesting test, the bc or wing in recreational diving is for comfort!
Hello Nogradi Csaba, in short, yes you are correct. The BCD is for comfort and convenience. It also adds an extra bit of safety, as another viewer posted, while dealing with emergencies at the surface. Even though I always dive a balanced rig, I would never suggest anyone diving without a BCD.
My wife just got a new BCD and this warning is actually in the manual. It states that the Small and X-Small size may not have enough lift capacity if you have a wetsuit thicker than 6mm at 99ft/30m. That was the first time I have ever heard about this. Overly cautious company lawyers?
Hello Greg Tichenor, thank you for sharing that with us. With brand and model of BCD did she purchase?
I have dove many times in Lake Michigan at 41 degrees water temp to 130 ft wearing a 7mm wetsuit. Buoyancy and trim are not a problems...cold is. On the first dive you feel warm enough, but the cold catches up with you on your second dive. We do it all the time here...until we can afford a dry suit. :-) Perhaps the noted myth is among those who live in warmer climates? You don't hear it in these northern parts.
Hello Ron Beatty, you make a great point when it comes to choosing an exposure suit. Buoyancy and Trim should never be the issue (as this is controlled by the diver), but staying warm should. This claim was made by a training agency located in California. We have several other videos coming out in the near future addressing myths like these and why the majority of divers simply do not buy into them.
Dispelling myths will make a wonderful new series. Thank you for educating and sharing with the rest us.
12:13 thanks for making me check my messages 😂
Most people around here only dove 7mm, and often with another layer, AL80's, no problems. Surprised this was a concern? But then again, that's what we learn in.
Hello Derek Walter, due to the cost of most Drysuits, the majority of divers, especially in colder environments learn in thick wetsuits. For the majority of divers, this isn't a concern. I would say to any competent diver, this should never be a concern, with proper weight of course.
What size wet suit you have ? Weight
In this video, the suit featured is an Extra Large, and I am using 12 pounds.
Today is 6/1/23, I also had heard the Myth, or Concern, or Warning, Thank you, for Taking the Time, to show me just how Important it is, to Spend the Time, to get Properly Weighted, Great Job. I'm right now Trying to find a 7 mm full suit to fit my Dad Bod, I saw quite a few comments with guys my size 5'9" 220 Looks like XLS with room for the One Pack Ab, Damn gravity is a Cruel Bitch. Aloha Ben
Hello Ben A, glad you liked the video. Hopefully, you will find a suit that you like.
@@LakeHickoryScuba Hi LakeHickory I followed the link and talked to Wet Wear she was very helpful. Thanks again
You are very welcome Ben A.
I'm a new diver. I use a 5mm wetsuit. A steel 100. Halcyon blade and wing. Zero weights. My instructors don't believe in weighting to compensate for poor skills.
Hello Don Munro, I have always taught my students that weights are used to compensate for the positive buoyancy of the exposure suit we choose to wear, or for the natural positive buoyancy of our bodies. Our BCD's are used to compensate as we ascend and descend. The problem with today's training though, students are being overweighted from the beginning, because they are not relaxed, and Instructors are sometimes restricted with how much time they have to train students. With proper training, and patience, any diver can learn to control their buoyancy and trim, without overweighting themselves, regardless of what exposure suit they choose to wear.
What size wetsuit? Weight ?
In this video, the suit featured is an Extra Large, and I am using 12 pounds.
What about full to empty weight difference in the aluminum 80? Would you not have to add weight so at the end of dive you are perfectly weight and balanced. We lose 5 pounds on the tank
I would assume that when Bryan says he's properly weighted he is including the end of the dive in that calculation. "Properly weighted" generally means no more weight than it takes to be neutral at 10-20 feet with a near empty cylinder.
Hello troop1026, that is a great question. As K B stated, I’ve already calculated for the weight loss of air being used. In our video on “How Much Weight I Need,” we talk about calculating the loss of air as well. th-cam.com/video/uYeuBJkWxQ4/w-d-xo.html
Can you do a video about not touching marine life? And then watch it yourselves?
Hello Brad Tullinger, looks like you follow us on Instagram. We would be happy to make a video for you. Stay tuned.
Unfortunately it shows how inexperienced you are to make a comment like this. Not on about how many dives you have but life experience.
Divers are taught never to touch marine life, true.
Why?
Well when you take a child into a fine china shop you say "don't touch anything" not because they can't but because you are worried about them breaking something or hurting themselves.
This is the same principle. You can touch marine life. If you know what you are doing. Should someone with no knowledge of that marine life touch? Hell no.
Should someone with that knowledge touch? Yes asking as they are not causing any harm.
Plenty of turtles, groupers, sharks and other marine life seek humans for interaction. And guess what if they don't want interaction they move away.
Now if you chase that poor creature then again that is wrong.
So as you see it's not as black and white as stating "don't touch"
Lol my first checkout dive was in 32 degree water ..I where a 5 mm with a 3 mm under that's how I learned ..no issue it's absolutely correct what your saying ..
Hello adhamh womble, several divers in our area will double up suits just like that as well. 32 degrees, which I assume you were in Saltwater, as freshwater freezes at 32 degrees, must have definitely been a shock to you. The good news, being able to withstand those temperatures, makes you better prepared for warming environments.
Wow that's cool . yesterday i was practicing on my byuancy in salt water wearing a 3mm full suit and i stuffed my bc with 21 lbs of lead and went down to 20 ft. I was able to surface without inflating my BC. I didn't even feel im too heavy. For freshwater i use 16lbs with a 3mmfull suit. Im 5'6 240lbs so i just figured out the perfect weight for me. Thanks for the great video 👍👍🦈
Glad you liked the video Zakaria600. And glad to hear that you are getting your weight requirements worked out.
Don't know who made those comments.. I learned in a 7mm with an all80. Up here in Northern Canada most wet divers are in 7mm .
Hello John David, there is a link in the description of a POD-CAST, where the claim was made. It was shocking to us, as it came from a training agency. I will link it here for you as well. POD-CAST 33, utdscubadiving.com/podcasts/
Great video and really great information! Thanks sir and keep up the good work!
Glad you liked the video Boriken Nautical.
Why did you even take a buoyancy compensating device with you for this experiment? If I'm only diving 100ft and swimming up to shore I do not use one. In my opinion a b c d for recreational purposes is just a way to turn yourself into an SMB. Useful for waiting for that boat to turn around but not much else. Thank you for your videos, you are awesome.
Hello don r, glad you liked the video. I tried to stay true to the claim that was made. This was the reason for the BCD. Also, in the event that I was unable to swim up (which there was no fear of), we were going to test the second part of the theory that a diver would need to ditch over half the weight needed just to ascend. Thankfully, that was not needed. I also wanted other to see that the choice of equipment really does not make a difference. Most see us here on the channel dive with Drysuits, Back Plate and Wings, Sidemount, and steel cylinders in back mount configuration. We wanted to show that even with a jacket style BCD, and an aluminum 80, with proper weighting, anyone can swim up with out ditching weights.
I'm impressed by 12lb. I can dive 12 lb with a steel tank or an AL63 and a semidry but I'm better off with 14 if I run the tank down. A drysuit doesn't really become mandatory until you get to steel doubles. The margins for a neutral rig get pretty slim. Snow diving in a wetsuit, lol. You're silly.
Hello Lars Dennert, glad you liked the video. Weight requirements between divers will always be different, as none of us are identical. I have never compared myself to others in those regards. The same applies with SAC rates. As divers we always tend to compete with others, but the reality is, it doesn't matter in the end. There are so many variables that change our SAC rate, I've gotten to the point that I only focus on mine and not others.
12 pounds is awesome brother 24-28 pounds was my goto when I started ice diving in a 7mm It's much less now in a dry suit but after this video I'm hitting the pool Godspeed
Glad you liked the video Josh D, and thank you. Its funny you mention needing less weight in a Drysuit. I wear both a neoprene Drysuit and a Trilaminate Drysuit, and typically depending on my undergarments, I too wear less weight with a Drysuit than with a 7mm wetsuit.
My daughter got nailed for hitting the elevator button on her ow checkout, she was kicking her butt off and couldn't swim up the 20 plus pounds. She is just a scouch over 5 foot tall and thin with a 5 mill, I wasn't happy
Culture of overweighting for skills on the bottom
Hello Jacob Hicks, glad to know she made it back safely though. I wouldn't have been happy either. I hope you spoke with the Instructor afterwards.
We'll just say lots of people learned something that day, her and myself included
I learn more minutia from your videos, love it, thanks again.
Glad you liked the video John C., and you are very welcome.
That claim you debunk is also nonsense because you would orally inflate your bcd, if you need to, not ditch your weights, which should be emergency out of air procedure only. Even if BCD had a hole in it, and couldn’t inflate at all, you shouldn’t be so overweighted that you’d need to ditch your primary front weight pouches. You could have your buddy remove trim weights. But if I was a student in that shop I’d want to know why whoever is claiming this has me so overalls weighted that I need to buy a dry suit? Which ironically is much harder to control your buoyancy because it’s a whole other airspace you have to control. So if they’re not teaching proper buoyancy without a dry suit… not to mention you can play the same what if game with a dry suit. Okay, instead of my bcd I have a hole in my dry suit, by their logic it’s back to the same problem. So yeah, I totally don’t get the original point and am happy you debunked it.
Hello Discovering Calculus, glad you liked it. There are a lot of crazy theories out there in the Scuba Industry.
What a joke of a myth, I’ve done this with a 9mm suit. Rolling my eyes.
We agree W Brown Jr.
@@LakeHickoryScuba I’m glad you actually stomped this myth out on a video. Nice work
@@mustanggun Thank you W Brown, glad you liked it.
Unfortunately it shows how inexperienced you are to make a comment like this. Not on about how many dives you have but life experience.
Divers are taught never to touch marine life, true.
Why?
Well when you take a child into a fine china shop you say "don't touch anything" not because they can't but because you are worried about them breaking something or hurting themselves.
This is the same principle. You can touch marine life. If you know what you are doing. Should someone with no knowledge of that marine life touch? Hell no.
Should someone with that knowledge touch? Yes asking as they are not causing any harm.
Plenty of turtles, groupers, sharks and other marine life seek humans for interaction. And guess what if they don't want interaction they move away.
Now if you chase that poor creature then again that is wrong.
So as you see it's not as black and white as stating "don't touch"
Btw great work Brian, really enjoy your videos. Look forward to them
Glad you liked the video qaszim2012.
Good stuff man!
Glad you liked the video Levi Allen.
Whoever believes this myth needs to come out to Channel Islands National Park to dive. Should also learn to properly weight themselves.
Hello Matt Meza, to be honest, I believe it is a very small percentage of divers that buy into this claim, and ironically, they are from the California area. We have already began production on several other videos, addressing claims by that small percentage. So stay tuned for those videos as well. And I would love to come to Southern California to dive. I've always heard the National Park there was beautiful to dive.
This video doesn’t prove anything and potentially leads people into dives where they are at increased risk due to an unbalanced rig. A typical ‘7mm’ Farmer John style wet suit/semi dry has way too much compression to be considered safe practice with steel tanks. I say this having learned to dive in one - diving steel tanks. I needed 14kg of lead to break the surface (salt water) and at 20m depth, my BCD used to be full of gas (blowing off) trying to hover without finning. The bcd I had at that time had 14kg of lift. At least the agencies that highlight this issue make their students aware of this, unlike many of the mainstream ones where you charge extra for buoyancy courses, that should be taught from day 1. Safe diving.
Hello Neil Egerton, sorry to hear that you had such an incident from being overweighted. Glad to know you made it back to the surface without injury. Safe diving.
@@LakeHickoryScuba I wasn’t overweighted as this was the weight that was needed to submerge with a relatively brand new farmer John style suit. I was of course massively overweighted at only 20m when the suit (Beaver Icelandic) was compressed due to plain physics but I still had the weight as a constant. This proves the “myth” completely correct. Most DIR founded agencies have been making students aware of this for years, and rightly so. The rest might catch on in time, with any luck to increase awareness and safety. I still have access to a well used Beaver Icelandic do if you are ever in Ireland you can give it a go and I’ll film you. Won’t charge either 😀
That’s great to hear Neil Egerton, thank you for sharing that with us.
Crap visibility
Hello MadMax31, that it is.
@@LakeHickoryScuba As a Puget Sound diver I know from crap visibility 😉
BS, you did not do a vertical ascent and you were resting and holding onto the wreck at the deepeest point when you would be heaviest. If it is a safe configuration then why did you not swim up vertically? and you don't understand physics or vectors or you would understand that kicking up a angled line IS using your fins to facilitate the ascent.
In addition, you failed to demonstrate that your weight was sufficient to hold a safety stop with no air in the tank. The reality of the situation is that you were under weighted and you were not wearing a thick hood, nor a two piece 7 mm suit which wouldfd have more bouyancy.
You fail on this demo, Although I give you credit for going to 100 ft in cold water in a wetsuit.
Hello Whatandwhen2. Sorry to hear that you disagree with our video. Nevertheless, we appreciate you watching it and sharing your thoughts with us. Happy diving.
@@LakeHickoryScuba why don't you address the physics and the reality of the situation? You never demonstrated you had enough lead, you cheated on the ascent and you provide factually incorrect information about physics.
We will respectfully disagree.
@@LakeHickoryScuba look at 8:53, clearly shows you holding yourself up off the wreck.. How can you disagree? Swimming at a 45 degree angle upward is causing half your fin propulsion to push you vertically and half forward. This is math and physics, on what basis can you disagree? LOL
Hello Whatand When2, in your first comment you stated I was underweighted. Now you are saying I had to hold myself up. We do appreciate you commenting on our video and the concerns in the matter, it shows you have a passion for this sport. If you feel our video is inaccurate in any way, we would be happy to have you join us on a dive. We will even cover your charter fee with us. We would also like to offer you a free Perfect Buoyancy course, at my expense, to help explain the math better for you. We look forward to working with you very soon. Happy Diving.
Whoever believes this myth needs to come out to Channel Islands National Park to dive. Should also learn to properly weight themselves.
Also those training agencies that believe/state that, should probably inform west coast salt water instructors.
Hello Matt Meza, to be honest, I believe it is a very small percentage of divers that buy into this claim, and ironically, they are from the California area. We have already began production on several other videos, addressing claims by that small percentage. So stay tuned for those videos as well. And I would love to come to Southern California to dive. I've always heard the National Park there was beautiful to dive.
@@LakeHickoryScuba That's pretty crazy that it's coming from out here. The kelp diving in the national park is amazing. Check out the video on my channel if you have a chance! There's only one video there, you can't miss it.
I will go watch it now. Would love to come dive the Kelp Forest out there.
@@LakeHickoryScuba Greatly appreciated. There's great diving up and down the coast. There's both liveaboards and day trips. The Spectre out of Ventura is extremely popular. Onboard air fills and bbq for lunch.