Rutgers University Confirmed: Meshtastic and LoRa are dangerous
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2023
- In 2020, I was the first TH-camr to make a video about “Meshtastic,” created by Kevin Hester. The project name was a merge between Mesh and Fantastic. Already then, I loved the project. But why is it the “most dangerous LoRa project”? Here is the proof: My video was included in a study titled “NETWORK-ENABLED ANARCHY” by an organization featured by the US government under the topic “instructions for encrypted messaging”. So stay tuned when I show you what you can do with it even if you have a normal profession.
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Isn't it just amazing how stopping the government from snooping on you is now labeled 'dangerous' and not 'privacy' ?
Welcome to „democracy“.
They must not have studied history. In the 20th century, the bloodiest in human history, more innocent people were murdered by their own government than were killed in all the wars that took place, combined.
that's some animal sh it
I love this! Sure taverns and taphouses are great for fighting tyranny, but this has tactical advantage.
This raises hate in me instead of preventing it
We need even more decentralized and private communication. Governments HATE it when people aren’t under surveillance at all times.
but inevitably it will end up in the hands of facists of all types, left wing and right wing.
We should be skeptical of anyone who doesn't feel comfortable discussing their ideas in the open like everyone else has to.
If you encourage secrecy around politics how can you possible protect yourself from groups who have alterior motives since they could communicate in different registers of communication then just dogwhistle to their public followers or people in the know, but still enabling open public political radicalism.
@@jordan3636 The government, with the help of big tech, is attempting to silence every dissenting voice. It is this censorship that idiots like you are defending.
It is only by removing the ability of governments and big tech to censor people that we have a chance to remain free. Furthermore, a decentralized and private system cannot be taken over by any faction. Such a system will allow people of every persuasion to communicate, and there will be no way to stop them.
One of the major factors in the destruction of Soviet control over Eastern Europe was the ability of those opposed to Soviet tyranny to communicate using fax machines. It was this decentralized (and largely secure) method of communication that allowed these people to coordinate anti-Soviet activities. Only a tyrant (or the tool of a tyrant) wants to prevent people from communicating with each other without interference.
@@jordan3636paranoid much? Bypassing privacy is just as much of a fascist tactic as any, especially by fascist governments who wish to censor their populace. This is just selective bias.
@@jordan3636true 😐
@@jordan3636 That would be - remotely - fine if there were no legal consequence to just speech, unfortunately that's not always the case.
Government: "We can't intercept this communication! Something illegal must be going on!"
People in the chat: "So what did everyone have for breakfast this morning?"
💯💞🤣 food and pet 🐕 pics
Half of it will be people saying "Good Morning" and sharing Pepe memes
The fact that they’re concerned about this and not WhatsApp, when they’re both encrypted, tells me that if push comes to shove they could access the WhatsApp messages. A lock is only as strong as the will of the person holding the keys.
incredible that anyone would think whatsapp is actually a secure way to send messages, spot on
I believe in the UK the government wanted to be able to access all messages, hence making encrypted messaging illegal, I believe WhatsApp and other companies just said they wouldn’t comply and would just stop working in the UK.
The problem with whatsapp isnt that the encryption is flawed but that facebook stores data such as who you are messaging and when and possibly where.
@@zxzz593I know, right?! Not to mention, cell is the most insecure device you own...ugh.
In Brazil, by law, companies are not allowed to operate if they can't comply with the justice system when they ask for data - which is understandable, since the location of a kidnapped child could be available within the communication channel of the bandits. People very often forget that privacy and security are very hard to balance; but I digress. So, when they ask WhatsApp for data and WhatsApp doesn't comply, they block WhatsApp in the entire country (I'm not sure how they're able to do that, but they do). That's a big thing for WhatsApp, for they are VERY strong here. They're the main communication channel in the country, by far. There are maps showing this in the web, you can look for it. So, this goes on for 1-2 days, and then the block is lifted. How? We may ask. Well, WhatsApp, somehow, complies. Let's say that, for WhatsApp, end-to-end encryption is very easy to break if you can clone a phone.
Them considering it dangerous is what makes this technology great!
The thinking "anti-facists" are dangerous is the funniest part of this. One of them is so fucking poor he is running backup sights unironically.
Dangerous to their communist censorship .
As an American:
They can go fun themselves.
@@DickCheneyXX What? Anti-fascists, or antifa, are anarchist communist, they are fascist pretending to be anti-fascist, just like North Korea pretends to be a “democratic people’s republic” lmao…
brain dead take.
Not needing infastructure for communication is a weird thing to be against.
Governments like governing things.
Only if you presume they are working for us.
They are not against it, they are aware of the risks that are implied.
Funny how freedom for us is a risk for them. Maybe people's reaction is a response to your action?@@MartinBgelund
@@Willy_Tepes Meshtastic is a powerful tool, just like an AK-47 and nuclear missiles are.
And sometimes we want to restrict access to powerful tools for people who are not friendly towards us. That's why we had the Cuban missile crisis.
Inventing or popularizing a technology that gets mentioned in the same sentence as 3d printed weapons is a badge of honor.
:-)
Agreed. If governments are scared of you, there's a good chance you're doing something right.
This reminds me of the time when I used to sneak behind the Southern Korean kids at lunch, and then tap on their hair, causing it to bounce.
Every government is worried when they cannot 'pull the plug' of a communication system.. It was the reason for poor encryption of early https protocol and probably why so many routers where shipped with hidden backdoors (Cisco? ). Love your videos , you are the best!!
Considering how they are acting, they have every reason to be worried. Stuff like this is called a self-fulfilling prophesy. They will get everything they deserve and there is nothing they can do to stop it,....because they are literally doing it to themselves.
Long live the revolution!
Another conspiracy or real thing? Talking about backdoor
A conspiracy is a real thing. Criminal conspiracy is an actual crime, and everything indicates that those who rule us are conspiring against us.@@neodimium
@@neodimium Cisco backdoors are well documented at this point, you can find atricles from reputable sources.
@@pasikavecpruhovany7777 Cisco SOHO routers are absolute garbage.
The fact that the state's number one concern is information control is all a guy needs to know about the state.
The Western establishment covered up for the man-made nature of Covid-19, a possible global bioterror attack using US gain-of-function research (and celebrated by the WEF as "The Great Reset"), but the real danger to our society isn't continued gain-of-function research but rather the scary possibility that the lower classes might be able to communicate independently even if the state shuts down the Internet and cell phone towers.
Years ago it was concern (decide retrospectively whether real or not) that it would put the state sanctioned PTT monopolies out of business 🤔
Governments don't like communications that they cannot break into. Exactly why you should use these types of devices.
My thoughts exactly...
Most of todays messaging is encrypted. So it is not easy to monitor.
@@AndreasSpiessbut it is (relatively) easy to kill
@@AndreasSpiess
it's easy to log, decrypt now or in the future as tech advances, easy to break the encryption, intimidate the authority which holds your encrypted data, incentives them and sometimes well most of the times, companies don't give a flop about customer data and would skip the security part or do it loosely.
When you're on the internet it's safe to assume that you have no privacy or security, at all, no matter what you do or use.
@@AndreasSpiess Easier if the phone has been hacked.
This is the highest praise a communication technology can get.
:-)
I honestly saved this to watch and review because I was thinking it would be about some kind of EMF hazards or something.
I ... somehow forgot we live in a nation that lives in abject terror at the thought of a free public. I guess a lot of it boils down to I was already looking at stuff like this simply because there was absolutely nothing they could do to stop it, so I already factored them out of my thinking.
Generally, I was looking at a sort of hybrid protocol where a lora mesh could be used to distribute keys and routing information for higher bandwidth services. Use the lora mesh to build the VPN and then route the big data through that.
Fortunately, such low power devices cannot harm the human body at all. You usually need at least a microwave oven to do so ;-)
It's not so much fear of a "free public" but fear of being unable to detect "naughty" communications (avoiding using the word in case YT blocks my comment). It's a valid fear, although I don't get how lora/meshtastic makes this any easier. I would have thought it was vastly quicker and easier to just slap together a custom encrypted messaging platform and take advantage the existing internet infrustructure than to equip every "naughty" person with a custom lora communicator.
@@clonkextheyre scared because they couped the US government long before you or i were born, amd now that peoppe are starting to notice they have to clamp down harder and harder. The only reason we're as free as we are is 2A, but thats going to go away eventually too. Theyre going to chip away at all freedoms until the poor are once again serfs and slaves
Mark my words
@@clonkex indeed. I think the main benefit of using meshtastic for secure communication is that you can pretty much KNOW for sure there's no backdoors or anything like that. I mean, even if you have the most open software etc there's (almost) no way of knowing for sure there's no backdoor in your BIOS firmware etc... then again there's some new ARM V computers that are totally open hardware..
@@syrus3kI'm seriously rusty in IT and software active skills but I'm keeping up as best as I can to understand these topics. And I think you're spot on. I arrived at this comment section via watching another video regarding mesh networking and a specific producer of devices. So far the fundamentals look ok. Backup communication systems are also usefully in case of an intense solar flare akin to the Carington event. So it's not perse bad intend etc that could leave us voiceless. Humans like to stay connected, and preferably without meddling in the middle.
I've been watching your videos for years now, and just wanted to let you know that I appreciate the effort you put into keep your videos short and full of information. Your planning and scripting put your videos above many others on my feed because I know I'm going to learn something and it's not going to take forever or contain filler. Thanks, and keep up the good work!
Thank you for your kind words. I try to produce my videos like the ones I prefer on TH-cam ;-)
They consider this technology dangerous for the simple reason, they can not track your behavior.
it's so amusing to see governments getting upset about this "new" technology, i invented a wireless mesh network system for my MSc thesis back in the mid-nineties
So you were pretty early!
It makes me think they're used to having a lot more access than we realize.
@@bryede I knew a guy who worked for AT&T. He said there was a room in his building which no AT&T employees were allowed to enter, but he'd see police go in there.
can you share link to your thesis? i would love to read it
Found your channel through TechAirSpace Meshtastic T-Deck video. How did I not know about Meshtastic before? Our local HAM circles are out of date! Nice to see "new" HAM stuff pop up! :)
I am a TH-camr and always interested in new projects ;-)
Thank you, Andreas! This video inspires me to dig out my old t-bones and restart this project.
Very good!
Hey, I've been doing some deep dives into LoRa and ESP32 recently, and remembered that, in one of your videos, you talked about the ESP32 losing connectivity/memory when it goes into deep sleep/wakes from deep sleep, and therefore, you were using an Atmel solution that didn't have that "feature". I was just watching some videos on ESP32 deep sleep, and found that there is a way to declare variables and preserve memory between deep sleep/wake cycles, and it made me wonder if that just hadn't been implemented yet in the firmware - the ability to remember the connection details between startups.
Any article related to this?
I'd imagine that feature being used now.
afaik it uses the RTC-Memory right? Thats how i preserve data when sleeping.
Alternatively you can use flash to persist data on power-loss, but the flash has limited write-cycles (i think a few thousands)
@@bloginoobs Look for the RTC_NOINIT_ATTR attribute to remember variables between deep sleeps.
Connection states are preserved in more shallow sleep states on the ESP32.
That was mentioned on the vídeo were he installed a sensor o the mailbox. But that problem only exists if you want to use a network like thethingsnetwork because there is a join procedure. If you build your own lora network that is not a issue.
As @tarakivu8861 writes, you can preserve data. But the library I used does not do this. It would have to be reprogrammed.
TY for the great video! As co-founder of the world's first global social network and first ISP in half a dozen midwestern U.S. states, I've always paid the price to be on the bleeding edge of technology. YET... I have to admit, in this arena I'm a noob but learning fast and VERY impressed with how collaboration and capabilities of this have gone, progressed and look to move forward with a path that is a win-win for everyone participating. While I 'retired' when I sold my first Internet company in '95, I'm either a glutton for punishment or serial entrepreneur.. some days it is both. I hope to contribute to this project... if nothing more than building out many nodes to donate and hopefully get many businesses to match that gesture with use of their buildings for mounting of nodes or repeaters. And you can bet I've subscribed and will stay tuned, I know that feeing of being years ahead of most and when I find someone who is on such promising technology, I DO pay attention!
Welcome on the channel. You ahve an impressive story to tell! Just one word of caution: These devices offer an increadible low throughput. They are only made for short text messages. So they are very good for one use case: Long distance, low power, and low traffic. Or transfer of sensor data.
I was an ASIO Liaison Officer in Australia for ten years or so. ASIO is the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation. Sounds pretty effin' serious, and to the untrained observer it looks great on my resume. But I was just the back room guy for a couple of local ISPs. Whatever legislative act it was back then required a nominated person to show ASIO where to plug in whenever they turned up at your shop. Of course at various interviews since then they'd ask me about this ASIO Liaison Officer thing and I'd say well, ... I think you can work out the rest. I never got a single job with that on my resume, who wants in on that? Except when I got hired by...
I agree: You have to pay attention to your resume. It is written every day whether you want or not...
Except when you got hired by ASD?
@@TerrisLeonis Hehe, you know I can't talk about that 😂😂
@@TerrisLeonisHe CAN talk about it, but then he would have to kill you.
@@AndreasSpiess Wouldn't it be better for privacy to use the Helium network rather than your phone?
Government will not allow any encryption protocol unless they have the backdoor.
Witness PGP back in the 90's. The developer created an encryption that the government couldn't crack and would not give them the backdoor.
They destroyed his life with lawsuits, harassment and more. You can be sure that PGP now has the backdoor built in.
I don't think so because it is open source and the math checks out. The only concerning thing are quantum computers because they can break the public / private key system
Maybe if you release stuff like this through anonymous accounts it'll be harder for them to find out who made it?
@@Nexalian_Gamer No one is anonymous. They track you with so many things it's impossible. Browser, phone, computer, car, cameras, listening devices. It would be very difficult to use any type of communications and remain anonymous. Except LoRa and that's why they're trying to outlaw it.
@@jackflash6377 It is actually extremely easy. Use tor or if youre really schizo just use a public / hacked wifi from someone else and route your traffic trough tor.
I do not understand how it's illegal foe Dutch Royal police to break in to encrochat servers & plant a bug that hovered up vast amounts of corporate info as well as those braggards that broadcast their illicit activities lol. I thought it was the definition of "Fruit from the forbidden tree?"
I have a few Heltec LoRa boards laying around. I was able to setup one in a couple of minutes. Pretty neat. For some reason I'm only able to connect to one of them. The rest seems to have bluetooth disabled. Still reading the docs, but this is super fun thanks for the video.
Thanks Andreas! I follow your videos for years now, and you helped me a lot.
You are welcome!
Thank you Andreas for another excellent video. We are working in a project that is using meshtastic (and other approaches )that could be potentially be useful for search and rescue , emergency communications etc. For example earthquakes, floods, natural disasters etc in which mobile telephony networks are down.. If anybody is interested for this please let me know!
Sounds like a great idea!
I would think bringing in the equivalent of a cell tower (the hub/repeater) and having equivalent pager receivers for First Responders like Fire, or EMS, would be a great advantage. I, as a Ham and former EMT, would love to have something like this during our tornado season, or longer term ice storms...
Have you ever heard about radio? It's fantastic, amazing and 200 years old.
In the Amateur Radio community there are many clubs looking at this technology.
Hey koko I was working on this as a hobby as a few months ago! Unfortunately the only departments I found who were interested were police departments, because other first responders generally use police tech anyway. I spoke to the decision maker at my local PD, and he said he'd have to run any comms purchase through "[his] guy" in a 3 letter agency. I was in Army intel for a few years, and have no trust for any three letter group becauae of some severe abuses I experienced while serving. So, big fun project that could probably make an impact and a sustainable income is essentially scrapped because the intelligence community gatekeeps my market and I dont trust them anymore. 😅
The fact the government is against this means I absolutely will be getting into it.
ESP is truly a revolution in IoT. So many goodies.
I agree!
I had just finished watching your video using RemoteXY and I have to say that all of your videos are super helpful and informative. Your remotexy video helped a lot with my project. Since I am new to using arduino's and esp32's this was really helpful with unlocking the Bluetooth potential with my esp32. I tried using the remotexy app and it worked really easily with controlling led lights but I also included a circular bar and I can't figure out how to make it so that the bar updates its value based on RSSI readings from the phone to create a bar that can show me how far away my esp32 is. Could you help me with this? Also is it possible to make an led blink on and off a couple times when a push button is pressed because as of now, it just turns on and then off. Thanks so much.
Great video Andreas, as usual! Thanks for taking the time.
My pleasure!
When you said LoRa was dangerous I was thinking Rf dangers lol.
But I'm glad I watched this because its kinda like helium but free. Is it possible to mesh with others or does everyone need to be onboard with same settings? Just thinking ahead of the supposed internet blackout around the corner.
The free Helium is TTN. Both offer LoRaWAN.
For commercial use, TTN is not free, and Helium can be much cheaper - it depends on how you get your Helium console
the government would make whispering in someone's ear illegal if they could
Thanks Professor Spiess, i really appreciate your videos ❤
My pleasure!
Nice video, this takes DIY and Hobby electronics to a whole different level.
I agree!
A great video. Nice to see a mix of hardware is interoperable. My question... I don't have anyone close to mesh with or any obvious disaster or use case as I would be an early adopter. How easy is it to get started and familiar with the hardware and software to explore its possibilities IF you are on your own? I'm not even sure if there are other active users within range.
I just tested it by myself, with a few different nodes. There are range tests you can do, so you can place one node in your house and see how far you can reach it, etc. It's fun to play with, and now I have these modules all configured and ready to go, if I ever need it.
not difficult at all if you have a few LORA modules and depending on your use case. people often use them to grab sensor data and what not but i have two modules and created a text chat just to dabble with the tech.
You need for sure some technical knowledge for this project. It is no consumer-grade project.
@@AndreasSpiess I think I have some of that (not with RF or antennas though) but the people round me with whom I might eventually 'mesh' don't, so I would have to start any project on my own you see. Therefore, I wondered how rewarding it could be to start solo.
Another great video Andreas
Thanks for putting LoRa back in the video-feed 🙂
You are welcome!
Great video, again!
Funny that just today I watched another one called "End-to-End Encryption Will Be a Historical Footnote" related again on how government wants to read our files before and after encryption, making encryption worthless.
Can they un-invent it? Then it’s going nowhere. Things get cheaper and easier. They can try and push back the tide, but that just means people innovate faster.
Thanks a lot for sharing! Really a good overview!
You are welcome!
We love you!
Thanks :-)
Danke! Immer tolle Beiträge, die mir viel Freude bereiten.
Vielen Dank für die grosszügige Spende!
THIS IS REALLY A REAL SCHOOL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR SHARING.
I currently use my T-beam on 868MHz as a lora tracker with a 6dBi antenna mounted on the car. I passed the San Gottarno Tunnel yesterday and passed Bern . Hopefully I connected to your gateway 😊 I have a nice trace on the TTN Mapper from South France until Frankfurt 👍
I live near Basel. If you passed there you might have a point from my gateway.
Because you have a 6dBi antenna, you've decreased your transmit power by 6dB, correct? (Otherwise, it's not compliant.)
This reminds me of the Citysense project I worked on in 2007 at Harvard, and the Roofnet project at MIT before then. Unfortunately, these stopped working because they used WiFi at 2.4 ghz and that band quickly became saturated.
These nets are easily saturated. That is why we would have to learn to distinguish between data and information (as we had to do before the high speed internet).
@@AndreasSpiessforgive my ignorance, but what is the difference? And how does that help with the saturation problems?
@@glenn1you0 Concentration on the important things (information) helps avoiding a lot of data. In the 1960 they went to the moon with very low-capacity communication...
Thank you for the update! I bought two nodes long ago, but the iPhone app was not yet available. Looks like there have been some very interesting updates!
Indeed, the project advanced quite a bit.
Hi Andreas, quite interesting how steady the development of Meshtastic is going on in the past several years. Is there also some kind of API available, to integrate self written C/C++ software for own sensor readings and data processing with a ESP32 ? This could be a nice extension for remote located IoT projects. Best regards, Peter
They support a few sensors, but I do not know their strategy or if they support APIs. Maybe you ask them on their Discord?
I like to tinker with electronics, but this is way out of my knowledge spectrum. And I wanted to ask a couple of questions about LoRa's capabilities:
- what is the typical range of a P2P connection in an urban environment, or say, in a mall?
- what is the data throughput? is a voice call possible? low-res video call?
- could one use triangulation to detect another LoRa device in a semi-close environments where GPS isn't available, like (again) a mall? if so, how accurately?
I haven't tested in an urban environment, but based on Research you should be good for at least 300 m, but it depends on the space, of course.
Figuring out location would probably be done based on signal strength similar to Wi-Fi location, but I haven't looked for something that does that specifically.
Voice and video are absolutely out of the question. When respecting duty cycle in dense Networks, you're looking at measuring data in kilobytes per minute
@@academicpachyderm5155 Thanks, that's pretty informative! That kilobytes per *minute* was a little oof.
Regarding the positioning, just identifying the distance to target is not what I was hoping for. Would be cool if by use of 2 antennae it was possible to triangulate the source of a signal.
@@FaridAbbasbayli I've gotten speeds of 10 kb per second between two nodes on my workbench, but that was point to point in perfect conditions. One reason I put the speed in kilobytes per minute rather than bytes per second is the duty cycle limitations to make a dense network work. Any collisions have to be retransmitted, so dense meshes with lots of traffic can't guarantee super low latency transmissions.
@@FaridAbbasbayli 3 or a movement component on the seeking device. The approximate distance is how triangulation works you just need multiple receivers a known distance apart.
It can be done, it's not straightforward and not particularly high accuracy.
In malls the range is terrible.
You must use dozens and dozens of units.
Dew to thick walls and interference from lots of electronics....
There was a commercial mesh network in the early 2000s called Ricochet from a company called Metronet, a Paul Allen company. I worked for a company that built wireless PCMICA cards for this network and it could do 256 Kbps and in testing we were seeing 512K although the higher speed was never deployed. Metronet put their transceivers on street light poles and then had supernodes that connected to landline high speed networks.
Interesting and well ahead of time. Similar to Amazons "Sidewalk" where they want to expose their routers to the public...
The Ricochet network has now evolved into the smart grid networks. Same frequency range and slightly modified packets but it’s essentially the same network with a new name but not used for public access.
I bet it has ties to Echelon Network & programmable transistors. In street lights, traffic cams, IoT devices going back all the way to Bell Labs era basically.
Metricom, I believe.
@@isthereafeeforthis Yes I think Metricom is correct. Its been 20 years since if folded. The company I worked for ended up suing Allen in Bankruptcy court and won. The company placed large inventory orders when they knew their ability to pay was severely impaired and that they could possibly be facing bankruptcy which they did shortly after. It was a real sleaze ball move from a company whose owner I once looked up to.
Thanks for the video Andreas! I guess I should be flattered to be named in such a report. ;-)
:-))
top top top top, fazia tempo que eu estava esperando uma atualização sua sobre este teu projeto maravilhoso 😍
:-)
Always interesting - and educative too! Thanks
Glad you enjoyed it!
lol the reaction to the paper was literally "Oh no! Anyway ..."
Hello Andreas, I used the meshtastic in the past. Would be nice to know if there are any public channels with active users.... lilygo t-deck is really nice like a blackberry phone with lora chip it could be used for meshtastic I hope.
They already discuss the matter on the Meshtastic project. A very good fit, I think.
Great content, congrats. Is there any information on how many nodes are supported on the mesh network? And how many hops are supported for communication between nodes? Tks
Not that I know of
Fantastic video, as always. Thanks for sharing. I hope after your "fame" because of this US study you can still travel easily to the US
We will see next time I attend Supercon or so...
This is so good!
Also, if you join forces with Jorg Sprave (a mechanical wiz!) whose channel was once reffered to by the clueless media as "a Terrorist school" you will be unstoppable! 😁
He creates quite scary things, at least, for me ;-)
@andreas ~question for you sir. Using the standard firmware flashed onto my heltec esp32 v3 Lora boards that I installed from the website as you show and using the iOS apps on my smartphone(s) is it possible to add a pir motion sensor to my boards as well as a pir sensor so that I can use the excellent software infrastructure they have established to meet my own personal needs. I would like to then use node red to decide what happens when motion is detected. So in summary, use the infrastructure of meshtastic and the ease of if then type scenarios in node red. I’ve been on a hunt to find the right elegant system that doesn’t recreate the wheel. I know there are many ways to do what my end goal requires but simplicity is good. Thank you sir. PS do you have a video or short showing how a person might find you on channel five. I am not super knowledgeable but I do love the technology.
Meshtastic supports some sensors. Maybe you find further information on their project pages.
Thanks a lot for the video, but I just want to ask you a question...
I want to make some gps sensors in order to monitor my animals (cows and goats) using a LoRa
and see where they are on a map while they graze.
First I wanted to try on Helium... but now I wanted to ask you, in your opinion,
should I use Meshtastic or Helium network ? ...or use some personal LoRa settings ?
Thanks again
Maybe you mount your own Gateway and use TTN instead of Helium. I made a ton of LoRa videos. Keep in mind: These sensors consume quite some power.
@@AndreasSpiess I must use Helium cause my town is not covered by TNT.
Maybe I will make sleep the sensor for 10-15 min. and then wakeup it, send the position and then sleep again.
In your opinion a battery of 3,7V with 3000 mA will work for about a month ?
Thanks again
@@MrDenisJoshua You have to try how long it will work. One month should be possible.
@@AndreasSpiess Ok I will... thanks for the answers.
attaching a repeater or router node to a kite 400 feet up in the air, can create a mesh range that is hundreds of square miles. The fact that sensor data and GPIO control can be a payload, it is certainly possible to remote trigger a dirty bomb quite far away from a target. I have flown a router node on a kite and driven MILES away and had excellent signal on a range test. A lightweight gain antenna made out of 300 ohm twin lead, or other wire for 915MHz is quite small and can fly on the kite payload quite easily.
As said in the video, the range is huge if you can create a line of sight, also with the stock antennas supplied with the boards.
Just want to add that android has an OS level back button. iOS uses an app level approach. The one you figured out is with gesture navigation on but you can set it to 3 button navigation and keep a back button at the bottom left of your screen. In my opinion it's one of many ways android has better UI. You always know where the back button is instead of needing to know how that specific so handled it. But I realize it's more about which OS you're more used to more than anything else.
Thank you for the info! So you know that I am an IOS user ;-)
Okay that's awesome. I vaguely knew something like that was out there. But didn't know the details. I'm gonna have to go buy some hardware bits.
Thanks o/
Enjoy!
Waw, this is mind blowing! Great content!
Thanks!
As fascinating as this is, I cannot help but think of these 'Ring' devices, with their own MESH networks. Basically able to communicate without an internet connection (to other devices that may have an internet connection to smuggle out your data). It's actually a scary world we live in. Liked you video too man!
There are much more scary things out there than networks if I watch the daily news ;-)
@@AndreasSpiess Thanks for the reply Andreas! Ahh, don't get me started about the 'news' 😂😂 When the ruling classes use words such as, "safety' and 'protection' we know our civil rights are being trampled on 😲😤😢
I've been following the meshtastic project as well. I'm not sure it's wise to advertise its use because most governments seem to be adopting some of the more questionable policies of early/pre WWII, and any act of circumvention could be construed as defiance, and therefore "extremist".
I am astonished about the many comments about the government. All current messengers are encrypted and you easily can encrypt your mail. No need for Meshtastic for this purpose...
@@AndreasSpiess There are, unfortunately, many people out there who don't fully understand encryption technologies and simply believe the hyperbole sold to them by their choice of sensationalist. Or simply generate their own hyperbole.
@@Kilroy_Was_Here_1897There's a little truth to it: you can't tell whether the big companies running these messaging services really are doing end-to-end encryption vs just end-to-server and server-to-end encryption. And in fact most of them definitely do the latter, so they can use your conversation text (anonymized) as training data for AI or for useful features. You just have to blindly trust them to not grant access to the data going through their servers to government agencies / law enforcement / organized crime syndicates (😉).
@@AndreasSpiessStill, the level of control and independence is a whole new ball game compared to Internet based messengers on a commercial smart phone.
@@AndreasSpiess most messages are *not* e2e encrypted, and having a corporation hold your private keys is as good as sending your messages in plaintext. there are literally dozens of cases in the public record of messaging services being coerced into decrypting their users' data.
Hi, thanks for the links in the description, for the LILYGO® TTGO Meshtastic T-Beam, there are many options, i want 868Mhz, but "no solder" means A) it is not soldered and i have to do it ? or B), there is no solder for me to do as is it already soldered ?
AFAIK, the no solder is for the OLED. I order them without soldering (so I have no experience with the other version) because some cases need a spacer for the OLED display. Maybe they add also headers in the soldered version which probably would not fit the cases.
I'd be interested in a follow-up video covering the inner workings of the mesh network. For example, how does it select routes to deliver messages? And what happens with airtime when a lot of nodes try to communicate or when a message has to hop many times. Regards, Nicolas
Maybe stuff for a smaller channel like mine because it is not so interesting for a wider audience...
You could cover Briar too. It works without an extra device, just your phone and without internet via Bluetooth or WiFi. Also does Blogs and Forums.
If some intended recipient hasn't been reached yet, unreceived messages are stored on any device authorized to receive it and will be sent once the right recipient is within range.
So basically I send Alice a message that is also addressed to Bob, but Bob isn't within range. Once Alice gets close to Bob, Alice's device will send the message to Bob.
Nice project. However, I can shout as loud as my phone's Bluetooth reaches... LoRa is very different.
Cool, modern day POP & streetpass :)
I wonder if this means that anyone who's downloaded the meshtastic firmware is on some sort of watchlist as a result.
We never know :-(
With enough AI capacity you can have everyone on a watchlist…
@@serpent213 AI isn't magic. Exactly what would it be doing in this hypothetical scenario?
@@clonkex I was thinking about having all your traces around the internet processed by AI. That download is just a single data point.
Anyone who espouses the theory that the government is watching them is put on the watch list.
Supper helpful and interesting. Thank you so much for putting out this video.
You are welcome!
Brilliantly done and very informative. Many thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Alternative, secure messaging isn't criminal, it should be the default.
Secure messaging is the default by now (see WhatsApp, Telegram, etc)
Whatsapp decrypts all messages en route. It's not secure. Better to set up your own XMPP server @@AndreasSpiess
This system would be perfect for me to actually have communication with my children without their psychopathic mother feeling like she needed to interfere with it, because she has their phones installed with monitoring software so she can prevent them from having contact with me. Now, if only I could contact them to come and visit me, I could set their phones up with the app and they could shut off their systems access and still be able to contact me without their mother trying to control them!
You know, somethimes it is easier to use another way like just buying a second phone.
@@amogussus9603 You're forgetting the part where their mother interferes at every given opportunity, she controls what the kids have and allows them to have one phone and will not tolerate anything else. She's a toxic Narcissist with a penchant for controlling every aspect my children's lives, so much so that they are going to be totally screwed up as adults. You have no idea the things and tactics she stoops to in order to do what she does, it would make you physically ill to hear what she does to her own children, and Law will not do anything about it!
@@oculusangelicus8978 You should communicate in ingame intern messages short and clear to meet up or exchange some important informations about life or the next meeting day somwhere. This could be a app which as intern chat messaging in this app so I think no one could read from outside.
Or some videogames on computer and chatting there.
Then when you meet outside and set a date you could meet in libraries, or gym studios or in swim sport center or things like this: in places nobody can go without membeship and have no access wtihout a card or some place like the swim center where you cant go in wtihout swiming clothing.
So you could easily prevent her from following, observing and entering some places. Inside you are safe :D
You need to outsmart here. You can also use some hidden secret gadget to communicate which is covered as some other object but is acutally a phone, usb stick with chat installed encrypted progamme and so on
Goverments could easily join the network and eavesdrop, disrupt, or change network data.. Or use high-powered jammers..
You are right.
You can run encrypted, which would stop the eavesdropping issue. As for jamming, radio jamming is generally a big nono because they interfere with all sorts of devices. (its also pretty trivial to figure out exactly where the jammer is.
From your video I saw that it is possible to flash the firmware for LilyGo T-Deck, but I can't find that hardware in the website. Is there any region restriction?
I do not think that the T-Deck is already supported. Maybe in the developer's path?
But look at your video at the minute 2:21. T-Deck is on your list.. 🤔
This is great but previously we had limitations with lora as few data points per day duty cycle is it the same now or it won't be effected with this
The 1% duty cycle applies here, too.
This would be great for disaster situations. Are there any discords or groups for building out LORA emergency mesh networks?
I agree. There are HAM radio organizations that focus on emergency coms.
Talk with your local ham group, they may have interest. I have found few at any of the local groups care about digital modes though. If you can find ppl that run packet radio, they would be good ppl to work with. Ive wanted to create a lora to packet bridge, this will eliminate privacy but give much more range.
I wonder, if there will be more and more such LoRa devices, will the radio air become more polluted with overall bandwidth dropping down below?
These devices are for areas without cellular coverage. And these areas are sparsely populated.
I assume it would be possible to adapt this for amateur radio and then you'd be able to transmit over very long distances (across continents/oceans) without the internet.
In the amateur radio world, Winlink already does this but long distance comms mean very slow data rate. Not like Lora.
There is an adaptation (presented on my second HAM radio channel)
with ham radio you would run into issues re the encryption (generally not allowed on ham, at least here in the US)
You mean, like FT8, FT4 etc?
Wouldn't connecting to the MQTT server open your data up to bulk collection? Would you then be depending on the anonymity of the connection and some sort of encryption protocol for some sort of security?
For such devces, I do not care about security. They are for my hobby and no secret information is transferred. But you can create your own (secret) MQTT broker if you want.
How is privacy dangerous?
For the government, yes. How dare you?
Telcos can’t charge you for service. Which is dangerous when it gets too popular.
Andreas is not responsible if these groups use his teachings for evil.
I agree!
@AndreasSpiess
Hallo Andreas, vielen herzlichen Dank für Deine lehrreichen Videos mit Erklärungen und ein bischen Grundlagen. Eine Frage habe ich nun aber doch zu LoRa bzw. 868 MHz Antennen - einfach aus einem Stückchen Draht. Für erste Gehversuche reicht sicher erst mal ein Stückchen Draht für Tests auf dem Schreibtisch. 299.792.458 m/s / 868.0 MHz = 34,57 cm. L/4 = ca. 8,64 cm. Nun fand ich aber auch einen Verkürzungsfaktor in Formeln von 0,95. Das wären dann für L/4 = ca. 8,19cm. Wie lang sollte ein gerades Stückchen Draht für ein RFM95 / SX1276 (868) LoRa Modul sein? Eine Idee eine etwas bessere Ant. zu basteln von mir ist, ein Deckel einer Konservendose, ein Loch in die Mitte bohren und ein Koax Kabel wie für TV SAT Anlagen zu nehmen, dann die Seele als Drahtstummel ca. 8 cm stehen lassen, den Koaxschirm an den Deckel? Ist das Sinnvoll? Macht L/2 Sinn = ca. 17,2 cm anstelle von L/4 ? Ich würde mich über eine Antwort sehr freuen. Viele Grüße in die Schweiz
Es gibt viele Antennenanleitungen auf dem Internet. Ich mache mir normalerweise eine Ground plane aus Hartlötdrähten und einem SMA Stecker. Ich habe mal ein Video gemacht über wie man Antennen ausmisst. Das ist nämlich das wichtigste.
You make it look so simple, but there are so many chip options and different firmware/software revisions, how does someone know what to get in order to have the repeater on the hill, vs the battery powered back/forth style communicators.
Yes, they offer many options. But with the current version, it should run right off the box. And from there on you can tweak it.
How do you set one as a repeater? Do they all act as repeaters by default?
@@paaao The repeater function seems only to change the routing behavior. All nodes should transfer messages (it is a mesh...)
Andreas, we all knew, that you are an anarchist! 😂
As a Swiss, we select our government ourselves. So we cannot complain ;-)
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:00 📶 *Meshtastic, created by Kevin Hester, is a project combining Mesh networking with fantastic features, and it's the focus of this video.*
00:56 🔒 *Meshtastic creates encrypted LoRa Mesh networks, independent of mobile infrastructure, making them hard to detect and observe.*
01:25 🛠️ *The Meshtastic project has evolved to support repeaters, internet tunnels, sensor data transfer, and a variety of devices.*
02:49 📱 *Meshtastic devices can connect to PCs, Macs, iPhones, and Androids, with a recommendation to use a different smartphone for each node for clarity.*
07:40 📡 *In Meshtastic networks, the more nodes there are, the greater the chance of achieving a line-of-sight connection, which is crucial for LoRa's effectiveness.*
Made with HARPA AI
Grüezi von Genf Andreas ! Silly question, In Europe is it better to use 433 or 868 Mhz ? I am thinking of buying 2 units for testing purposes. Thanks for your time and reply.
868 is used by LoRaWAN. So, if you want to try this one, too, 868 is better. Otherwise it is not too important.
I switched to 433MHz because the ranges are longer and it is possible to use an antenna cable of up to several meters with an antenna on the roof with acceptable losses. It's not possible with 868 because you will lose all the power in the cable. It didn't work in my tests. In addition, on 868MHz there is a strong direct visibility effect, and on 433 it is much less so, therefore the range is greater. The argument about interference at 433MHz no longer has any value, basically all gate remote controls and similar are already sold at 868MHz. In my city of 70,000 inhabitants, there are not many 433MHz remote controls and the meshtastic module works very well.
I'm very happy to see this, even if it's not something I'm interested in playing with. It gives me faith in the future of humanity. If the internet goes down in any way, people have already found ways around it.
Education whether formal or not, is the key to people being free from tyranny.
Unlike Whatsapp, fb, X & others, mesh radio modules with encryption are not linked to the NSA. Simple dimple explanation of the bashing.
A dangerous tool in the hands of everyone is always better than the same tool in the hands of a select "trusted" few.
Communication, intelligence (human and artificial), defense capabilities, etc.
Excellent point.
very cool... i'd love to see you discuss more meshtastic when you start diving into ProxMox and VM / Container stuff (for example for hosting your own MQTT server, node-red installation, etc.)
I do not see the link between meshtastic and Proxmox :-(
@@AndreasSpiess well, because meshtastic can talk mqtt and proxmox is a really great place to run your mqtt broker with mosquito. Also node-red and other great containers
I just recently heard of Meshtastic, this information is really valuable. Now I just need to do a deep dive and learn everything about it ... Especially the best nodes and sensors to get. Thanks! 🤘
There is a ton of information on TH-cam now. So it should be easy.
Whn my LoRa meshnetwork project (DTProtocol) will be more developed and widespread I hope it gets onto some terorist watchlists too. Thank you for the motivation!
Keep me informed!
Thanks Andreas great update. I got 5 TTGOs (3 Tbeam 2 simple lora )now thanks to your first video where you created the irrespirable envy to purchase. One simple Lora is used w OMG and Homeassistant, the other Lora is w LoRaAPrs as igate . All ok
Now for the tbeam it has been a real headache. One tbeam doa w gos never worked. Second tbeam ok w Meshtastic last beta. Third one in the box. Why because I tried all the different flavors of LoRa APRS tracker and GPS reset v2 v3 and total failure. So (request) would be great if you could do a troubleshooting video on tbeam gos fixing and alternate APRS tracker methods !!
73 EA4GIL
Sometimes you have to reset the GPS chip (if the internal battery was discharged). Search for TTGO_T-beam_GPS-reset
Andreas your chanel is one of my favourite.
I love your content.
I hope one day we be able to add some system of payments through the LoRa.
That will be very cool.
Thank you for your kind words!
This could be interesting in a war zone (like Ukraine) or in a wilderness areas as a type of emergency beacon.
I agree with "for the wilderness".
It would be interesting for cutting back on paying a cellphone bill.
Oh no, govt. are not able to make money from LoRa 😆
Keep up the great work 👋
The problem here is not taxes that the State stops receiving. It is the fear of losing control by the bourgeois class that uses the State to control the population.
@@CassioRogerioEskelsen I wasn’t going to mention Klaus Schwab, but since you started, there I said it 😆🙏
#freedom
Your video was what introduced me to LoRa. It looked like 'the' technology although I hadn't thought of it as some super-secret messaging medium, I was actually looking for was an improved Bluetooth. As for going long distances with low power I'd guess from your other hat that you're familiar with things like FT8 and WSPR.
(BTW -- I thought that all Swiss were 'preppers', They've got laws about this or something.)
Indeed, we all have a private shelter ( I showed ours once in a video about a Geiger counter) ;-)
I don't know about you guys, but I watch Andreas Spiess videos for his advice on how to overthrow governments
Bad idea. I am a convinced democrat (not in the American sense) who can select his government :-)
Most Arduino/programming channels would take multiple videos to get all the information needed for specific projects... But not here! One video packed into all you need to know
Thank you!
Can i get access to the internet over lora
: For example:I got one lora module at home connected to the wifi. I am in the forest 5 km away from home and got a second lora module connected to my phone. Can I while being in the forest send a link of a website from my phone to the lora module in the forest and this lora module sends this link to the lora at home. The lora at home when gets the html content of the website because it is connected to the wifi and then send it back to the lora in the forest. That Lora sends when what html content to my phone. Is this possible? Do you have any other advice or suggestion to improve this plan?
LoRa has a very, very low data rate and is only good for text messages.
This is the video that pushed me over the edge towards getting started with meshtastic I have 5 devices now and will be setting up a network
Cool!
Imagine some day you dont have to have a provider, pay anything to anyone, just get a Device like LoRa and connect to a worldwide Mesh set up by every device taken online from anyone ... just imagine Providers would loose every tiny bit of power over the user they had ... but with LoRa i feel like the bandwith is nowhere enough to stream a video or even upload a big picture
Well the bandwidth is so limited to reach this range and because of the band we are only allowed to use.
I dont think we as consumers will ever be able to stream video over long distances like this. The frequency-spectrum is just so full already with other stuff not assigned to us. (party understandable, otherwise we would scream everything full)
The reason you pay to somebody is so they can purchase the equipment and take care of the running cost. In my case, an hour of my work pays for 2 months internet connection. In other words, If I spend more than 30 minutes a month maintaining the devices, it's cheaper to pay the ISP. And I get somewhat faster internet connection including TV streaming packages and other services.
And yes, the ISP is making profit as well, I know, but it is still cheaper.
it's not enough bandwidth and it's limited by government policies. They're not dumb, here you have to use baud rates equivalent to a telegraph for legal operation of a 433 MHz emitter.
i was not specific on LoRa, just such a thing than like a peoples network .... not specifically bound to any technology @@eldorado3523
Yeah install high bandwidth reliable cellular communication requires co-ordination and professionalism.
excellent reason to use meshtastic and lora: because these rutger authoritarians hate it.