@the_holland ok but the thing is it's the half of the arena that it blocks is in the air, a lot of the time that is because if you could just spam pogo then the boss would be super easy. take pure vessel for example, 90% of his attacks can be dodged by being above him, if you could just keep pogoing and using wings when he teleports then the fight would be a cake walk, hence he has a jump attack that he uses if you try to do that. I admit it's a crude solution but it solves the problem.
Honestly its just another pattern to learn, this just sounds like you just want to constantly pogo off the boss, i feel like the repositing was made to counter that, its just another move you have to look out for.
The difference is that other moves are telegraphed, while jumps are not. What you do against Hornet's Lunge-attack is dodging it when you see it. That's fun! What you do against her jump is *never being in the air* or hoping to God she doesn't decide to jump at the wrong time if you go there. That sucks!
@the_holland While there are definitely bosses with bad randomness, Hornet isnt one of them. The thing is that Hornet's jump reposition is entirely telegraphed. Never being in the air, while a valid solution, is not necessary to avoid getting hit by it. Its sudden animation, although technically reactable to, is rlly fast and is also not the main way of avoiding damage. Instead, you are supposed to keep in mind the boss's behavior in the last few seconds to predict when a jump is about to happen. There is no randomness to it, cos she always jumps to reposition if: 1. her stagger has just ended 2. she is backed up against the wall and the player is attacking her 3. her distance from the player is such that none of her attacks are possible. All of her attacks require her to be in specific distances with respect to the player character, and if none of those requirements are met she repositions herself to a better position. Because of this, when she starts a repositioning attack is always predictable, provided you have had enough experience with her fight to have picked up on these cues. You can see this in speedruns for example, where the players always react to a repositioning jump just before it actually starts. Where she lands is also predictable/dodgable by just watching her trajectory. Dodging into where she is landing is usually just a result of impatience/nervousness (at least for me), which is definitely a skill issue and not a boss design issue. Whether a boss should have movement like this that isnt telegraphed through animation, but through positioning and behabior is a different question. In my opinion, it works for the hornet fight, cos it adds replayability to an otherwise simple boss by allowing for greater mastery of the fight. Additionally, it makes you pay attention to your positioning throughout the entire fight, both to dodge the jump, and if you want, to attack her throughout the jump (you can hit her 2-3 times in one jump while shes midair for extra damage but it requires good control over your positioning. Its also possible to forcibly control her trajectory by timing your attacks well and hitting her towards specific directions, although this is mostly just needed in speerduns). The spikes in Hornet 2 are also for the same purpose of making movement more of a focus, by adding obstacles, but also by adding more objects to pogo while in the air. Without this, Hornet would struggle to measure up against bosses like the Mantis Lords and Watcher Knights which require good movement and attacking both, given the easy to dodge conventional attacks she has. And it only takes a few fights before you start recognizing this pattern, so I think the barrier to entry is also reasonable (Godhome makes this quite easy to do). Lost Kin's jump, while having the same tells as Hornet's, does have a small amount of randomization to it. Instead of just a jump, he can choose between any aerial attack in those situations, and for staggers, even his basic dash. So you have to keep all of those possibilities in mind. However, I think it still works. It adds to the chaos of the fight, and its still managable, since all of the aerial attacks can be dodged by just staying on the ground in those three situations. Bad Examples of Randomness in Bosses: That said, Traitor Lord's walk is absolutely unfair. There is absolutely no behavior or positioning tell. Instead, he just cancels his dash attack and walks into you for no reason, dealing two masks of damage at a time. The only way to dodge it is 1. by doing aerial combat for most of the fight, or 2. being paranoid of it the whole fight just in case he does it. Absolute Radiance can also sometimes choose an attack sequence that leads to undodgable damage. Watcher Knights have a small chance to roll backwards instead of forwards, and this attack still has the same wind-up animation. Crystal Guardian's vertical lasers and jumps are both too random to make for a rewarding fight. There are some others too, but these are the ones i find to be most egregious.
Shaw, that is the most well thought out counter-argument to my video I've yet to see, and I appreciate you a lot for taking the time to write it. I still do believe it's almost impossible to dodge some repositioning moves (try beating Hornet Sentinel on Radiant only by pogo'ing her). But you *do* make good points about prediction - for example, Hornet always jumping after a stagger is something I just recently learned, and although still basically impossible for new players to understand, it does make that particular reposition predictable (and as such way more fair). I really appreciate your thoughts. Thanks for sharing ❤️
@the_holland I assume that only pogo-ing means never hitting the ground during the fight (floor is lava)? I tried for around half an hour, managed to hitless the Ascended fight and got through more than 80% of the Radiant fight once. Definitely a hard challenge, and it took me a while to get my strategy down, but after that most of my deaths were due to the attack where she jumps up and lunges towards you rather than the reposition. I see your point about how its almost impossible to dodge tho. Though I figured out a good movement pattern for dodging that while attacking, it was really hard in execution and I mostly played it safe by moving to the other side of the arena after I had hit her twice, to avoid having to dodge it. But I feel like that happens with most Radiant fights, especially challenge ones such as this? For example with NKG, I don't go for the optimal attack patterns when I'm trying to Radiant. In a normal fight, as long as you have picked up on the specific tells for when she is about to reposition, her moves are fair imo, both in how you are supposed to predict them and in how you are supposed to dodge them (they can be challenging for sure, but it still feels like a fair fight). In the floor is lava radiant challenge I agree, even when I could tell that shes about to reposition, I couldnt always execute the dodge movement reliably, so I would play it safe. But that is such an edge case that I dont think it is a boss design problem.
@@Shaw21-w6j I appreciate you attempting my challenge! I guess I'll just have to disagree with you that it's an edge-case; I think *we* make it a non-issue (or at least a lesser issue) by playing in a very restricted way.
I think your change (adding telegraph to the reposiotionning) would make the air a too safe zone, and most of the fights would feel the same (staying in the air, pogoing) and easier, which in my opinion would make the game less fun, because with how it is, each boss feels different because you have to dodge the attacks in a different way for each boss
That's a good point, Emeric - you'd definitely have to make sure that each boss still felt different. But I think they already would if you implemented proper telegraphs. Think of Broken Vessel's Smash. Or Hornet's Aerial Lunge. Both of these, even if you are in the air, require you to react in two separate ways to avoid getting hit. Definitely an important point to bring up, though!
This is a non-issue. You’re not meant to pogo your way to victory. Restricting free movement is an integral part of the fight design, and that’s exactly why many encounters involve navigating platforms, avoiding spike pits, or managing tight spaces. These constraints force you to think critically about positioning, timing, and how to use your tools effectively. Repositioning attacks are part of this challenge. They prevent you from relying solely on pogoing indefinitely. The inclusion of hazards, platforms, and repositioning attacks makes fights more dynamic, if you could move freely without obstacles or react to every attack without challenge, the game would lose much of its depth and tension.
I agree with you man, but that's not my point. My point is that you should be able to react to repositioning moves in the same way you do attacks - which you can't if the reposition is instantaneous. It needs a telegraph if it's going to deal damage. And I don't believe that you think this is a non-issue, because I've never seen a player not die at one point or another to an un-telegraphed repositioning move.
This is not a non-issue, as contact damage creates situations where you are unfairly damaged. For example, when fighting Pure Vessel, one of the stun animations for the boss has it pushed back in the air before falling on the ground. The amount of deaths I got from that stupid animation made me change my entire strat for a radiant run. It's not a skill issue, it's not a "just play safer" issue. I should not be punished for successfully stunning a boss. Playing SAFE is NOT FUN, skillfully RESPONDING to a boss is fun. Everyone here is ignoring games like Dark Souls, arguably the core DNA of Hollow Knight. It has no contact damage, and the bosses are just as hard, and positioning is just as important.
With all due respect, I feel like you might've missed the point of my argument. You don't respond to a repositioning move, you have to predict it - which is also technically impossible, since it's usually random
@the_holland I understand this, but what I like about it is that it makes the game feel more like a real 1v1 fight. Take Cuphead for example, a game where the boss has a set of easy to predict but difficult to dodge attacks. The bosses in this game feel like bosses. They're bigger than you and throw way more stuff at you. (Note that this is not necessarily good or bad game design, just drawing a comparison) Hollow knight on has bosses, as you said, repositioning themselves. It feels more like a fair 1v1 fight where both you and the bosses are throwing simple attacks and jumping around the screen. I think the ability to heal also counteracts this. Sometimes you'll get the middle finger from bosses and get hit by the reposition, but can slow down and focus on healing to mitigate this
@@daforkgaming3320 Oh, I definitely agree that repositioning as a concept is a great thing! I *do* want the bosses to reposition - I'd just rather they did it in a fair way where I actually had a chance to respond to them and not get hit, rather than - as you say - getting the middle finger and being forced to go heal because the boss decided to jump at you without a telegraph.
You're mostly right except the part where you should be able to learn it It's impossible to learn something that's random, you can try to predict it but it's basically impossible to dodge something like that 100% or the time even if you do everything right. Attacks like the entirety of Hollow Knight's moveset have a specific pattern and can be dodged due to animations that give away what attack he's gonna use, just jumping up randomly and landing in a random spot on the other hand is not a well telegraphed attack hence why it's "unfair"🤓
7:14 ill explain why both solution 2 qnd 3 wont work. No collision damage on reposition wouldn't make sense, as boss like Hornet, Hive Knight, Lost Kin (and broken vessel) have the repostion move as a main part of their kit, not to mention as i stated in a previous comment, sit there for a second before jumping, its all just a pattern, a pattern you'd have to learn. And the teleport, wouldn't make sense at all, all bosses that teleport have reasons, Soul Master/tyrant use soul, Hive Knight (well idk much about the hive so confused), Pure Vessel/Hallow Knight, use void to teleport (most likely)
Right, Hive Knight is the exception - so I do think it can be a martial move, as I state in the video. And I agree with you, Solution 1 and 2 are hard to implement without ruining other parts of the fights.
is ur argument that jumps arent telegraphed? if so, hornet isnt a good example, as her jumps are telegraphed theyre not given the same amount as another attack, but she crouches ever so slightly before them
Yes, yes this is true. You *are* right. But my point is that her telegraph isn't long enough to respond to if you're in the wrong place - say, right above her.
@the_holland Stop pogoing when it's not necessary. Your gameplay is very painful to watch as you keep pogoing when a simple strike would've been more effective and less risky. Also you could just dash out the way.
“Guys. There’s an issue with games. The bosses are too difficult. My solution you may ask? Well it’s very simple you see. What we need to do is make a new baby mode and add invulnerability.” Mate, speaking honestly, stick to FarmVille.
No but see, if we *just* add invulnerability, we'd still have to beat the boss. You can't be thinking like this. We *also* have to reduce the boss' health to 1, so he dies in a single strike. Now THAT would be fun!
What a productive comment. You are ignoring games like Dark Souls, arguably the core DNA of Hollow Knight. It has no contact damage, and the bosses are just as hard, and positioning is just as important. Rhe most important point: playing SAFE is NOT FUN, skillfully RESPONDING to a boss is fun.
Hahaha I def agree with this. Its a similar problem to Malenia’s Waterfowl Dance actually, where the entire fight becomes based around passivity to avoid an attack that’s borderline undodgeable at certain positions.
my main gripe with this is the fact that you CAN predict where "generally" the boss will land. take lost kin for example, i might be wrong but im 90% sure he never intentionally jumps on top of you without doing the downward plunge telegraph, if you calm down and play the boss slower you'll realize that he jumps to either side so you just need to slow down and react accordingly the telegraph starts when he jumps and then he can do one of 3 things, land on the right, land on the left, or plunge, 2 of which you don't have to do anything for and the last one has an additional telegraph. what I can agree with you on is attacks where bosses like traitor lord will walk forward a little with no telegraph as you just don't have time to react to that. I do wish there were more bosses where I could stay in tha air a bit more but I don't think it's as big of a problem as you make it out to be.
You're right, Onefish, that Lost Kin doesn't intentionally "go for you" unless he's doing the down-smash, in which case you have (more) time to react. The problem is that even if he's not going for you, he can bump into you on his way from, let's say, going right to left. This means you have to stay on the ground for fear of being randomly hit, and it's something I constantly have to help people with when I introduce them to Hollow Knight - I have to tell them "don't jump, don't ever jump unless you need to, because it's gonna get you randomly killed". So in that sense, it's definitely an issue. If you don't see it as one, that's because you're used to the fight and know not to jump - but that doesn't make it a good mechanic. Now I'm at least glad we can agree about the Traitor Lord-walk-forward-bug! And thanks a lot for the comment!
@the_holland yeah I I think it's fine for bosses to have moves like that but I think what would be better is if the boss had a bunch of moves that they do if you're in the air that would be harder or easier to dodge. that would make each boss more of a do I fight this one in the air or on the ground kind of deal which I think would be super cool. also is that traitor lord thing a bug? if so I wish they would've fixed it.
I just assume it's a bug, because it happens so rarely and makes no sense. I think he's trying to back away from you, but accidentally goes the wrong way
A LOT of the comments here are saying that "repositioning is part of the boss' patterns" and you should have to memorize/remember that the boss can do that (ie. skill issue!!) Yes. Repositioning IS part of the boss' moveset, and it is something players have to learn and adjust their playstyles to. But it can sometimes be a BAD part of their moveset. That's the whole point. For some bosses, like Crystal Guardian, Lost Kin, Hornet, etc. they can randomly jump (which would telegraph to any logical player that "hey, they're going to do an air attack,") and they end up doing nothing at all, which is jarring and unpredictable (AND unreactable, in some cases). Even worse is when the boss repositions or jumps at insanely fast speeds (which is very possible in this game since some bosses can just zip across the screen) which can just instakill a player that's in the "wrong" spot (a spot that was presumably safe, even to the brightest and most calculating players). An example of GOOD repositioning (imo) is Hive Knight, specifically where he disappears off screen and reappears (with warning) to reposition. This isn't the ONLY way to do repositioning. I'd actually argue that turning off hitboxes for repositioning is a BAD thing because it can be jarring to phase through a boss unexpectedly (and this fix would also remove the inherent difficulty of some bosses like Nosk as others mentioned. Other games (ie. Nine Sols, you all should play it! Surprisingly amazing!) may fix the repositioning problem like this: enemies never have hitboxes that damage you, only their attacks have hitboxes. While this is inherently super different from Hollow Knight, and I wouldn't implement it in this game if I had the chance, I don't hate on it just for that-- it plays REALLY well, and I actually PREFER it, because I know I can walk right through bosses but the second they attack me I have to be wary. (Also, enemies' bodies having no damage hitboxes means the devs can play around with stronger and more interesting attacks, to balance things out!) With all of that said, here's what I would do to address the inherent problem of boss repositioning mentioned in this video. Simply make the bosses NOT do that stuff. Replace their random jumps with other moves that work better for the purpose, like Hornet's jump and shaw, or Lost Kin's slamdown. Crystal guardian could have a new attack where he shoots a laser into the ground to launch himself to another location on the map. Other bosses can do other readable, fitting things. (I'd wager one of the major reasons these things weren't implemented was because the devs didn't think to or they didn't want to because of time, budget, effort, etc... It's much easier just to make the dude hop) If those attacks were the only things players had to calculate for, the game would FEEL a lot better to play on that front, and you can't really make the argument that the boss loses any "beneficial" difficulty or value, because anything weird they WOULD have done is replaced with something more reasonable. With all of that said, I have hundreds of hours on HK and my favorite pastime in the game is to run pantheons. I love the game and its combat a LOT, and I've played many other platformers and metroidvanias as well. I'd never give Hollow Knight anything below a 10/10, especially on the combat front, but I can't lie and say the game is "perfect," and this random repositioning issue happens to be one of the MINOR things I wish could change. Hopefully Silksong solves this problem in its own unique way and makes bosses even more exciting, readable, and strategic than HK!
Also, you talked about telegraphing in the video, and this is one of the biggest things other comments are missing as well, I just wanted to point out that your logic is sound and it's fair to say that many repositioning moves aren't telegraphed to the same DEGREE as other attacks in HK. I also wanted to add that, if an attack or repositioning move telegraphs roughly WHERE it will happen (ie. where will the boss jump? left or right? straight up or towards you?) in some sort of way, that's an added plus for me. The more readable a boss is (ie. relaying the right info to the player to help them make the right decisions) the better, of course this is a generalization and it's not all black and white but you get my point!
Hi Adabat, I read both of your comments, and I'm relieved to feel like someone finally gets me. I love everything you're saying, even the point about this being a minor issue (because it IS a minor issue in the grand scheme of things - Hollow Knight is no doubt a 10/10, even in combat!). And having the boss deal no damage - but only their attacks - although hard to implement into Hollow Knight as we know it sounds like an AWESOME fix! I'd pin your wonderful comment, but that would seem too much like I'm patting myself on the back 😆 Thank you a lot for taking the time to write it, though. I really appreciate it.
@the_holland Hey, glad to see your response! I definitely didn't put as much time into the comment as you did into the video, of course, so I'd like to return the sentiment: thanks for making the vid, and keep it up!
I think your solution would just make the fights straight up easier. I don't think repositioning is a very big problem, you just need to restrict your movement, which is fine. You're not supposed to fight every boss while flying. He is the boss and you are the Challenger, it's fine that he sets the "rules" for the fight, and you need to fight in a specific way.
That's a fair opinion, Matheus, even though I must say I disagree - although not on the point about making the fights easier, it definitely would do that. Although you could easily counterweigh that by making the bosses harder in another way - like having them act quicker. Thanks a for the comment, though!
Everyone here is ignoring games like Dark Souls, arguably the core DNA of Hollow Knight. It has no contact damage, and the bosses are just as hard, and positioning is just as important. The concepts are not mutually exclusive. See AbsRad.
I feel like this isn't that big of an issue because you can either tie a pogo to a bosses attack (pogoing pure vessel while he's doing his triple swing attack to get over it and deal damage) or just get more damage by using desolate dive/descending dark or just nail spamming next to them but if they were to get a telegraph I think all they need is crouch animation as the player should get a feel of where the boss should land after they do a jump
5:42 thats not a fix, 99% of boases become non issues if you remove collision, lets take nosk for example, he becomes a cakewalk. Edit: Abstard and Radiance don't count, I'm talking about bosses that had hit boxes to start.
Well, Locker, I actually agree with you that this probably isn't a very good solution. But if you *had* to implement it, what you'd presumably do with bosses like Nosk was to more clearly define that his Charge-attack *is* an attack and not just a repositioning move - so it *would* deal damage.
This is one of the main reasons I end up taking damage or outright dying to bosses, especially when playing on Radiance difficulty or attempting Pantheons with bindings. A telegraph fix would definitely help make the combat more fun, less frustrating, and more memorable.
@the_holland It’s really frustrating to die just because a boss jumps in the same direction as the player. That aside, keep up the great work you’ve been doing, I’m looking forward to seeing more KR related content in the future!
@@plagueknight3056 I'll probably be focusing less on Kingdom Rush, but I've got at least one more video cooking! Thank you for watching and commenting, it means a lot :)
100% agree with you. I think most people in the comments missed the most important point: playing SAFE is NOT FUN, skillfully RESPONDING to a boss is fun. If people think that removing contact damage makes bosses too easy, they haven't defeated radiant AbsRad. It just means those other bosses aren't optimally designed. Personally, I think an additional solution would be to distinguish between simply repositioning and a reposition attack. It works just fine in games like Super Smash Bros and Dark Souls, I don't see why it wouldn't work in Hollow Knight.
The entire problem feels like it is just you wanting to not touch the ground and bosses preventing you from doing it imo. Making bosses teleport is just not an option(thk, pv and Hive Knight are trained warriors who learned how to teleport from their king/queen so it makes sense to them). And telegraphing them is not needed. One answer, stay closer to the ground. Gpz is known for jumping a lot so you should only jump after he does the shockwaves and the running attack. The only boss that allows cool midair moves with downwards attacks is soul master/tyrant(his fakeout version just has a very fun way to dodge it for me). Bosses really are designed for you to stay on the ground more that stay in the sky(except markoth). Yes, repositioning can be unfair, for example, you want to Abyss shriek lost kin when he jumps to end the fight faster but he jumps right at you and you are still in the animation of the spell(Abyss shriek is the worst spell imo btw) and get hit. But you can just, not do that. There are no bosses requiring you to be in the sky for a long time, there is always some ground to stand on. Okay, this sure was an unstructured load of thoughts...
What you're saying is true, Oshirothebubble - to not get hit, you should stay on the ground. What *I'm* saying is that this is a flaw in Hollow Knight's gameplay design, and I wish it would change. It's not that any fight really "requires" you to be in the air. It's that you *can* be in the air, but if you go there, you can get lucky and have nothing happen, or - as you point out - you can have Lost Kin randomly jump at you and make you take unavoidable damage. And even though I love Hollow Knight, I think that's a design flaw.
You misunderstood the lost kin part a little. I meant that even if you are on the ground and use Abyss Shriek on the boss, it can still hit you while repositioning because you thought it will jump over you. And the worst part is that you can't avoid the damage because of the very long shriek animation. Another way of getting unfair hits is when the boss gets staggered in the air and falls right at you. Also you can be too close to Pure Vessel and he falls on stagger and you get double damage which really sucks. The clips of radiant fails because of repositions raise some questions to me. Gpz attacks with jumping and repositioning and the collector only way of moving is repositioning. You only have to worry about when he wants to grab you which is not a reposition. If you are trying radiant bosses, you should know the moves of the boss already and all you need to do is dodge them consistently and beat the boss fast. One last thing:why is there traitor lord in the thumbnail? He isn't mentioned in the video except some gameplay footage and the reposition in his fight is just... walking. The jump is an attack.
I think people will generally agree that a repositioning move is just another type of attack. However, I'm not sure I agree that all attacks need to be telegraphed. The end goal is to have the boss fight be something that's difficult at first, but that can be learned without too much trouble (...but with some trouble - these are bosses, they're supposed to be a challenge). Telegraphs are just one tool to accomplish this - they're little signs that you can learn and understand as you practice the boss. But this isn't the only way. Take the "Massive moss charger" boss. It only has two attacks - it either jumps or dashes at you, neither of which are telegraphed. Is the boss unfair? Not at all. After the attack has started, you're given enough time to react before the boss reaches you. You talked about how bosses should do something to indicate where they plan on landing when their jump is done - but do they actually need to do this? Are these scenarios any different from the "massive moss charger" - they start their jump, you can see their trajectory, and you have enough time to decide if you need to rush or stay put. This certainly isn't trivial because you're not given much time to figure it out, but with a bit of practice, it's very possible, and that's exactly the point. If we think it's too difficult, the solution could be to just slow their jump down a bit, as opposed to adding a huge telegraph to the jump. Another good example is the Mantis Lord. He attacks in a very easy-to-pick-up rythym, so you know when he's going to attack and when you have time time to strike. When he does attack, it's usually one of two options - the jump dive or the lunge, neither of which is telegraphed (if I remember correctly), but that's perfectly fine. You should know when it's safe to POGO on him, and when you should be a few paces away, ready to dodge, not because you've picked up on a telegraph, but because you've picked up on the rhythm.
Hi, Scottyjam, Can I just say: thank you for making these counter-arguments in the way you did. I really appreciate how respectful you're being, and you make some damn good points too! I actually agree with basically everything you're saying. Maybe I can comment on a few things? 1. I'd say Massive Moss charger *does* actually telegraph his attack, but it's in a very untraditional way: he always pops up a certain distance away from you, giving you time to react. As you note yourself, you're "given enough time to react" - to me, that implies a telegraph. 2. But your point about not showing *exactly* where Moss Charger wants to go is totally valid. I really think you're right that this might be too much. I'm also not 100% sure I even like the solution myself - I was simply trying to come up with some sort of fix for the more annoying bosses. But I think Moss Charger solves the problem very well already. 3. Traitor Lord is one of my favourite bosses, and he does actually have a telegraph for each of his attacks. It's still somewhat hard to react to his up-slash if you're pogo'ing him, but I really don't think this is a huge issue. Thank you so much for the comment! I really enjoyed reading it :D
Most repositioning situations in bosses exist to either make you stop pogo'ing off the boss or to give the boss some space so you can't just spam hit him. Yes it doesn't have a telegraph, you're not supposed to "react" to it, it supposed to make you fight the boss in a certain way.
@@xdeluxezx Well, if you can only predict and not respond to something that's going to damage you, then you end up having an event that can randomly damage you or randomly not damage you - which is more luck than skill and not fun at all
I honestly think bosses like Broken Vessel or Lost Kin should keep their changing position thingy, my only topic on this is that they should have prefixed spots where they can jump to, for example, for the middle of the arena.
Thank goodness, someone finally put into words what I felt like was the worst aspect of the game-worst precisely because it is a stain on what is otherwise one of the best aspects of the game.
I really do not want to sound harsh or mean here but to be honest, sounds like a skill issue. You seem to have some issues with how you play the game: 1) You assume all attacks must have telegraphing. They do not. All repositioning moves are attacks too. Yes, some attacks seem rather unpredictable at first, but if you simply take the time to learn their movement then you will realize that they are more predictable than they at first seem. The only times repositioning attacks are unavoidable are when you actively respond in a way you should not, and you are punished accordingly. 2) You assume that you are the one calling the shots in terms of movement. You aren't. You are not supposed to have 100% freedom of movement during a bossfight, as part of the skill in playing the game is learning to follow the boss. The boss is the one dictating how the movement of the fight will go, and you have to learn to play around the bosses, as they won't play around you. 3) You assume staying in the air is how the game was designed to be played. That is partially true, but not to the extent you believe it to be. Yes movement in the air feels really good and I know you can be in the air, but that doesn't mean you should spend all your time there. You've gotta keep grounded in many fights. This also references back to point number 2 here. If a boss is in the air a lot, you can't just decide that you want to be in the air all the time too. As a result of these three points, you assume there is a problem with how the game was designed and that how you play is not the problem. I'm also going to address how your four solutions would worsen the game: 1 and 2) Many bosses are designed around having physical hitboxes that damage you. Removing them would break most bosses and make them free wins, resulting in a much less engaging and less enjoyable combat. The only reason Radiance/AbsRad doesn't have one is because she is designed so that a hitbox would make it straight up impossible. 3) Teleporting bosses would make most of them worse too. If all bosses acted like Elder Hu and just teleported around they wouldn't be fun bossfights. Some bosses make teleporting work, but it won't apply to all of them. 4) If all bosses telegraphed their movements, the game would be way too easy and it would likely ruin bossfights. Where is the skill in simply avoiding where telegraphs indicate the boss will move? Simply looking at where these indicators are and avoiding them is not skill, it's just observation. You need to get a feel for how each boss moves around. Here's my advice. You need to learn to flow with the boss, instead of stubbornly trying to go against how the boss moves. Air movement is incredibly fun, I know, but if a boss's attacks and movement clash with air movement, you have to adapt and stay grounded. Also, try to rely less on telegraphing. If you solely respond to telegraphing you will never truly learn how to fight these bosses.
Games like Dark Souls, arguably the core DNA of Hollow Knight, invalidate your points. It has no contact damage, and the bosses are just as hard, and positioning is just as important. It wouldn't be hard to redesign bosses to show a distinction between a damaging reposition, and a non-damaging reposition.
Repositioning moves should only make the boss back away from you, that is why godtamer and broken vessel is annoying sometimes. However, being an efficient killer is also part of hollow knight's skill expression. We all love to see a TAS jump around the boss like a chimpanzee, but knowing what button to press, finding a good time window to attack, and making the most use of that window take skill and are fun as well.
I agree with that, definitely! So maybe we could just add half a second to the crouch-down jumping telegraph for bosses like Hornet so the average player also has a chance to react?
If you are not constantly chasing down enemies, you will be able to react easily or don't even have to bother with repositions. Repositioning is a punishment for over-agression, just like how parrying by hornet and hollow knight is a punishment for mindlessly mashing attack.
The fights definitely feel unfair when you get hit during the boss' repositioning. Eventually, we get better and don't get hit so often so we can go past most fights with little to no damage taken. However, even after beating P5, the repositioning takes away most of the fun I could otherwise have when learning the fights on Radiant. Even Markoth - which is super difficult and also has a good part of his fight being RNG - feels like it's beatable. Fights like Lost Kin and Hornet 2 make me wanna quit. The regular/ascended fights are SO FUN, but being instakilled by the bosses jumping randomly doesn't feel good nor can be avoided through skill, you just have to play it more patiently/safely which is BORING. Really good video (again)!
I'd guess because it's quite a difficult thing to understand. And to differentiate between a good and a bad attack takes thought. Writing "skill issue" is just easier; I even predicted that people would do this in my outro, haha
Telegraphing these moves would make bosses more readable for sure, I'm guessing it was more of a design choice to make the bosses less predictable and more threatening that also incentivizes you to learn their movement patterns. I see your points tho and I respect you putting them out despite the inevitable brainrot in the comments. You are sure getting a lot of interactions for the algorithm!
@the_holland I meant the person that made the comment is wrong There is not a fixed time u will learn to dodge the jumps Like just because u have 200+ hours doesn't mean u can avoid And just because u only have 50 hours doesn't mean u can't avoid the attack
this is valid criticism ngl, idk why everyone else is hating. these moves are unreactable and random which is just bad game design. giving them a short amount of startup would still make them more difficult to dodge to punish the player for just staying above the boss while not forcing them to take damage for playing the game in a certain way.
I do agree that repositioning moves are an attack, but if your going to class them as an attack, LEARN THEM LIKE ONE. It's not that hard to beat these bosses. (except for markoth.) But for literally every other boss in the game you can work around these moves and dodge them, just like a regular attack. And you can learn when to be in the air and when not to be in the air, just then learning when to dash, and when to run. It's the same thing. You just have to learn it like an attack and dodge it like you would an attack. Also you don't need a telegraph to know when an attack is going to occur and you can also just react to the attack happening. (I'm referring to repositioning moves)
@the_holland False knights jumping repositioning attack. There is no telegraph, but even just being on top of him pogo'ing him you can react fast enough to just, shade dash out of the way.
@@sushiverseichigo7264 You stated that "(...) you don't need a telegraph to know when an attack is going to occur (...)" I'm asking you to defend that position by giving me an example of an attack that you can "just react to"
You seem to be getting a bunch of comments of derision and dismission, often undeserved. I agree that for certain bosses, the repositioning is for most intents and purposes, an extra, subtle and unpredictable attack that lacks proper a telegraph. Personally I would only consider the last solution you proposed, as it is just giving the player more control and the possibility to appropriately react, instead of drastically modifying the level of treath these bosses may pose. I hope you have a good day.
Thank you very much for commenting, Sast. I really appreciate your civility, and I'm so glad we see eye to eye. I also do think the last solution would be preferable, if not then a totally different solution I haven't imagined yet. And to you!
Pogoing in this game is completely broken because it trivialises most of the boss's moves. To change players playstyle they added unreadable jump repositioning to some bosses, so the players would play differently, staying more on the ground and being careful with chaotic jumping. Otherwise players would just pogoing on bosses the whole game.
@the_holland you have a valid opinion and I don't understand hate in the comment, and yet I have to disagree with you. In some games telegraphed jumping would be a good solution, in HK I think it was an intentional choice. I think pogo attack was designed to be a "reward" to punish bosses for horizontal lunge attacks (which almost all bosses have in the game), so the player could jump over the boss when the boss is dashing toward the player and hit it with a couple Pogo attacks. The problem becomes when it starts to be the dominant strategy, I think it could be easily seen in the watcher knight fight. The optimal strategy is to just pogo the whole fight on them because 3/3 of their attacks are based on ground control while only 1 covers air. While I don't think it is a bad thing to have some bosses designed this way, it is important to keep strategies in check to not make the combat stale. For example you were speaking about hornets. Let's say you make jump telegraphed, what you have as a result is the boss has 5 ground-control attacks (lunge, nail throw, jump-repositioning, air lunge to ground, silk explosion) and 1.5 air-control attacks (silk explosion is mostly used after the initial jump, rarely on the ground). So what do you think would be the strategy if jumps are telegraphed? Just pogo on its head until it dies. Not fun at all. But in the current hornet version, all options to avoid attack (side-walking, jumping or dash on second hornet fight) are equally valid, while pogo remains a good tool to punish dash attack for additional damage.
You make good points, but I'm not sure pogo'ing would be as broken as you say. Maybe, but I don't think so. And if it did become the only good way to play, then I would want Team Cherry to redesign the fights to take that into consideration - giving the bosses more air-attacks,
Not rlly bc it’s not a problem. I’m pretty sure all of the bosses have a crouch animation that’s noticeable before they jump so you should be able to avoid them.
alright, i have 180 hrs in this game and have never really found this a problem, it is just part of the boss that you can easily learn, sorry if this sounds mean but don't moan about parts of the game that are perfectly fine, this is 100% not a problem and just something you need to learn to combat with the move set given to you as i and others have. you don't need to jump around to feel like ur dancing with the boss as you said. Also, bosses are supposed to be hard, what would fun if it was all easy and no challenge at all, its designed in such a way that if perfect for the game and would ruin it if removed or changed so just stop moaning and get used to it (srry this all sounds harsh but i think its a rlly bad idea)
The question if whether all types of hard are equally fun. What if a boss randomly took away 1 mask of health every 10-90 seconds? Sure, that would make them harder, but fun? I don't know about that... So if you feel like bosses would get too easy if they had proper telegraphs, you could just make them attack more often or quicker or whatever to make up for that!
Also, I love how you keep references to earlier game bosses and go out of your way to not spoil absolutely anything. As popular as Hollow Knight is nowadays, it's refreshing to see someone care so much about their viewer's experience to the point where you'd not even show/explain anything about A.R., not even mention the name. I only started the game in 2023 so I had seen lots of spoilers when I got to it, unfortunately. Respect!
Wow, I really appreciate that, Vinicius. I was also very late to the party, only starting in 2022 or thereabouts, and I remember being spoiled myself - so I'm really glad you thought I didn't spoil too much!
I totally agree with you and I'm glad someone finally speaks up about it. It always felt annoying with bosses and some enemies having collision damage. The nail's range is so short it makes it so you have space almost perfectly and while it is a skill to master, I think it also limits the designs somewhat. I hope they do something about this in Silksong, the game would be much more enjoyable in my opinion
You yourself gave a solution to the "repositioning problem"
It is to learn how a boss repositions and then avoid that area
Haha, okay man, but if that area is like half of the arena, don't you think that's a bit - *cringe* - ?
@the_holland ok but the thing is it's the half of the arena that it blocks is in the air, a lot of the time that is because if you could just spam pogo then the boss would be super easy. take pure vessel for example, 90% of his attacks can be dodged by being above him, if you could just keep pogoing and using wings when he teleports then the fight would be a cake walk, hence he has a jump attack that he uses if you try to do that. I admit it's a crude solution but it solves the problem.
I think you're making a good point, but crude is definitely not an overstatement
Honestly its just another pattern to learn, this just sounds like you just want to constantly pogo off the boss, i feel like the repositing was made to counter that, its just another move you have to look out for.
The difference is that other moves are telegraphed, while jumps are not.
What you do against Hornet's Lunge-attack is dodging it when you see it. That's fun!
What you do against her jump is *never being in the air* or hoping to God she doesn't decide to jump at the wrong time if you go there. That sucks!
@the_holland While there are definitely bosses with bad randomness, Hornet isnt one of them. The thing is that Hornet's jump reposition is entirely telegraphed. Never being in the air, while a valid solution, is not necessary to avoid getting hit by it. Its sudden animation, although technically reactable to, is rlly fast and is also not the main way of avoiding damage. Instead, you are supposed to keep in mind the boss's behavior in the last few seconds to predict when a jump is about to happen. There is no randomness to it, cos she always jumps to reposition if:
1. her stagger has just ended
2. she is backed up against the wall and the player is attacking her
3. her distance from the player is such that none of her attacks are possible. All of her attacks require her to be in specific distances with respect to the player character, and if none of those requirements are met she repositions herself to a better position.
Because of this, when she starts a repositioning attack is always predictable, provided you have had enough experience with her fight to have picked up on these cues. You can see this in speedruns for example, where the players always react to a repositioning jump just before it actually starts. Where she lands is also predictable/dodgable by just watching her trajectory. Dodging into where she is landing is usually just a result of impatience/nervousness (at least for me), which is definitely a skill issue and not a boss design issue.
Whether a boss should have movement like this that isnt telegraphed through animation, but through positioning and behabior is a different question. In my opinion, it works for the hornet fight, cos it adds replayability to an otherwise simple boss by allowing for greater mastery of the fight. Additionally, it makes you pay attention to your positioning throughout the entire fight, both to dodge the jump, and if you want, to attack her throughout the jump (you can hit her 2-3 times in one jump while shes midair for extra damage but it requires good control over your positioning. Its also possible to forcibly control her trajectory by timing your attacks well and hitting her towards specific directions, although this is mostly just needed in speerduns). The spikes in Hornet 2 are also for the same purpose of making movement more of a focus, by adding obstacles, but also by adding more objects to pogo while in the air. Without this, Hornet would struggle to measure up against bosses like the Mantis Lords and Watcher Knights which require good movement and attacking both, given the easy to dodge conventional attacks she has. And it only takes a few fights before you start recognizing this pattern, so I think the barrier to entry is also reasonable (Godhome makes this quite easy to do).
Lost Kin's jump, while having the same tells as Hornet's, does have a small amount of randomization to it. Instead of just a jump, he can choose between any aerial attack in those situations, and for staggers, even his basic dash. So you have to keep all of those possibilities in mind. However, I think it still works. It adds to the chaos of the fight, and its still managable, since all of the aerial attacks can be dodged by just staying on the ground in those three situations.
Bad Examples of Randomness in Bosses:
That said, Traitor Lord's walk is absolutely unfair. There is absolutely no behavior or positioning tell. Instead, he just cancels his dash attack and walks into you for no reason, dealing two masks of damage at a time. The only way to dodge it is 1. by doing aerial combat for most of the fight, or 2. being paranoid of it the whole fight just in case he does it.
Absolute Radiance can also sometimes choose an attack sequence that leads to undodgable damage.
Watcher Knights have a small chance to roll backwards instead of forwards, and this attack still has the same wind-up animation.
Crystal Guardian's vertical lasers and jumps are both too random to make for a rewarding fight.
There are some others too, but these are the ones i find to be most egregious.
Shaw, that is the most well thought out counter-argument to my video I've yet to see, and I appreciate you a lot for taking the time to write it.
I still do believe it's almost impossible to dodge some repositioning moves (try beating Hornet Sentinel on Radiant only by pogo'ing her). But you *do* make good points about prediction - for example, Hornet always jumping after a stagger is something I just recently learned, and although still basically impossible for new players to understand, it does make that particular reposition predictable (and as such way more fair).
I really appreciate your thoughts. Thanks for sharing ❤️
@the_holland I assume that only pogo-ing means never hitting the ground during the fight (floor is lava)? I tried for around half an hour, managed to hitless the Ascended fight and got through more than 80% of the Radiant fight once.
Definitely a hard challenge, and it took me a while to get my strategy down, but after that most of my deaths were due to the attack where she jumps up and lunges towards you rather than the reposition. I see your point about how its almost impossible to dodge tho. Though I figured out a good movement pattern for dodging that while attacking, it was really hard in execution and I mostly played it safe by moving to the other side of the arena after I had hit her twice, to avoid having to dodge it.
But I feel like that happens with most Radiant fights, especially challenge ones such as this? For example with NKG, I don't go for the optimal attack patterns when I'm trying to Radiant. In a normal fight, as long as you have picked up on the specific tells for when she is about to reposition, her moves are fair imo, both in how you are supposed to predict them and in how you are supposed to dodge them (they can be challenging for sure, but it still feels like a fair fight). In the floor is lava radiant challenge I agree, even when I could tell that shes about to reposition, I couldnt always execute the dodge movement reliably, so I would play it safe. But that is such an edge case that I dont think it is a boss design problem.
@@Shaw21-w6j I appreciate you attempting my challenge! I guess I'll just have to disagree with you that it's an edge-case; I think *we* make it a non-issue (or at least a lesser issue) by playing in a very restricted way.
I think your change (adding telegraph to the reposiotionning) would make the air a too safe zone, and most of the fights would feel the same (staying in the air, pogoing) and easier, which in my opinion would make the game less fun, because with how it is, each boss feels different because you have to dodge the attacks in a different way for each boss
That's a good point, Emeric - you'd definitely have to make sure that each boss still felt different. But I think they already would if you implemented proper telegraphs.
Think of Broken Vessel's Smash. Or Hornet's Aerial Lunge. Both of these, even if you are in the air, require you to react in two separate ways to avoid getting hit.
Definitely an important point to bring up, though!
This is a non-issue. You’re not meant to pogo your way to victory. Restricting free movement is an integral part of the fight design, and that’s exactly why many encounters involve navigating platforms, avoiding spike pits, or managing tight spaces. These constraints force you to think critically about positioning, timing, and how to use your tools effectively.
Repositioning attacks are part of this challenge. They prevent you from relying solely on pogoing indefinitely.
The inclusion of hazards, platforms, and repositioning attacks makes fights more dynamic, if you could move freely without obstacles or react to every attack without challenge, the game would lose much of its depth and tension.
I agree with you man, but that's not my point. My point is that you should be able to react to repositioning moves in the same way you do attacks - which you can't if the reposition is instantaneous. It needs a telegraph if it's going to deal damage.
And I don't believe that you think this is a non-issue, because I've never seen a player not die at one point or another to an un-telegraphed repositioning move.
This is not a non-issue, as contact damage creates situations where you are unfairly damaged.
For example, when fighting Pure Vessel, one of the stun animations for the boss has it pushed back in the air before falling on the ground. The amount of deaths I got from that stupid animation made me change my entire strat for a radiant run. It's not a skill issue, it's not a "just play safer" issue. I should not be punished for successfully stunning a boss.
Playing SAFE is NOT FUN, skillfully RESPONDING to a boss is fun.
Everyone here is ignoring games like Dark Souls, arguably the core DNA of Hollow Knight. It has no contact damage, and the bosses are just as hard, and positioning is just as important.
@@romankhamov6229 Great point, Romankhamov. Bosses changing their hitboxes when they get stunned can be such bs
The repositioning is part of the boss, it's just another pattern you should be able to learn or react to
With all due respect, I feel like you might've missed the point of my argument. You don't respond to a repositioning move, you have to predict it - which is also technically impossible, since it's usually random
@the_holland I understand this, but what I like about it is that it makes the game feel more like a real 1v1 fight.
Take Cuphead for example, a game where the boss has a set of easy to predict but difficult to dodge attacks. The bosses in this game feel like bosses. They're bigger than you and throw way more stuff at you. (Note that this is not necessarily good or bad game design, just drawing a comparison)
Hollow knight on has bosses, as you said, repositioning themselves. It feels more like a fair 1v1 fight where both you and the bosses are throwing simple attacks and jumping around the screen. I think the ability to heal also counteracts this. Sometimes you'll get the middle finger from bosses and get hit by the reposition, but can slow down and focus on healing to mitigate this
@@daforkgaming3320 Oh, I definitely agree that repositioning as a concept is a great thing!
I *do* want the bosses to reposition - I'd just rather they did it in a fair way where I actually had a chance to respond to them and not get hit, rather than - as you say - getting the middle finger and being forced to go heal because the boss decided to jump at you without a telegraph.
You're mostly right except the part where you should be able to learn it
It's impossible to learn something that's random, you can try to predict it but it's basically impossible to dodge something like that 100% or the time even if you do everything right. Attacks like the entirety of Hollow Knight's moveset have a specific pattern and can be dodged due to animations that give away what attack he's gonna use, just jumping up randomly and landing in a random spot on the other hand is not a well telegraphed attack hence why it's "unfair"🤓
@@Kar_Batteries Very well spoken, Kar
7:14 ill explain why both solution 2 qnd 3 wont work. No collision damage on reposition wouldn't make sense, as boss like Hornet, Hive Knight, Lost Kin (and broken vessel) have the repostion move as a main part of their kit, not to mention as i stated in a previous comment, sit there for a second before jumping, its all just a pattern, a pattern you'd have to learn. And the teleport, wouldn't make sense at all, all bosses that teleport have reasons, Soul Master/tyrant use soul, Hive Knight (well idk much about the hive so confused), Pure Vessel/Hallow Knight, use void to teleport (most likely)
Right, Hive Knight is the exception - so I do think it can be a martial move, as I state in the video.
And I agree with you, Solution 1 and 2 are hard to implement without ruining other parts of the fights.
is ur argument that jumps arent telegraphed?
if so, hornet isnt a good example, as her jumps are telegraphed
theyre not given the same amount as another attack, but she crouches ever so slightly before them
Yes, yes this is true. You *are* right. But my point is that her telegraph isn't long enough to respond to if you're in the wrong place - say, right above her.
@the_holland Stop pogoing when it's not necessary. Your gameplay is very painful to watch as you keep pogoing when a simple strike would've been more effective and less risky. Also you could just dash out the way.
I'm trying to make a point, good Sir
@@Wombattuus let bro play how he wants lil guy
@@calm2747 Bro can play however he wants as long as he doesn't make a video complaining about how the downsides of how he plays "ruins the game"
“Guys. There’s an issue with games. The bosses are too difficult. My solution you may ask? Well it’s very simple you see. What we need to do is make a new baby mode and add invulnerability.” Mate, speaking honestly, stick to FarmVille.
No but see, if we *just* add invulnerability, we'd still have to beat the boss. You can't be thinking like this. We *also* have to reduce the boss' health to 1, so he dies in a single strike.
Now THAT would be fun!
What a productive comment.
You are ignoring games like Dark Souls, arguably the core DNA of Hollow Knight. It has no contact damage, and the bosses are just as hard, and positioning is just as important.
Rhe most important point: playing SAFE is NOT FUN, skillfully RESPONDING to a boss is fun.
Hahaha I def agree with this. Its a similar problem to Malenia’s Waterfowl Dance actually, where the entire fight becomes based around passivity to avoid an attack that’s borderline undodgeable at certain positions.
Oh yeah! I never got that far into Elden Ring, but I've heard about that attack - a very good comparison!
Thanks for the comment!
dont play silksong when it comes out, i dont want someone as bad as you controlling me
I believe you
I don't get controlled but i constantly get obliterated again and again by pros, or fight.noobs till they beat me😭
Dance, my little puppet... DANCE! *You're* watching and commenting on my video, so charade you are! Muahahaha! DANCE!
Man you need to get some sleep
Well at least im more lucky then poor desert sqorage, it's gotta be the worst fate to be the first ever boss in the most popular mod ever😥
my main gripe with this is the fact that you CAN predict where "generally" the boss will land. take lost kin for example, i might be wrong but im 90% sure he never intentionally jumps on top of you without doing the downward plunge telegraph, if you calm down and play the boss slower you'll realize that he jumps to either side so you just need to slow down and react accordingly the telegraph starts when he jumps and then he can do one of 3 things, land on the right, land on the left, or plunge, 2 of which you don't have to do anything for and the last one has an additional telegraph. what I can agree with you on is attacks where bosses like traitor lord will walk forward a little with no telegraph as you just don't have time to react to that. I do wish there were more bosses where I could stay in tha air a bit more but I don't think it's as big of a problem as you make it out to be.
You're right, Onefish, that Lost Kin doesn't intentionally "go for you" unless he's doing the down-smash, in which case you have (more) time to react.
The problem is that even if he's not going for you, he can bump into you on his way from, let's say, going right to left. This means you have to stay on the ground for fear of being randomly hit, and it's something I constantly have to help people with when I introduce them to Hollow Knight - I have to tell them "don't jump, don't ever jump unless you need to, because it's gonna get you randomly killed". So in that sense, it's definitely an issue. If you don't see it as one, that's because you're used to the fight and know not to jump - but that doesn't make it a good mechanic.
Now I'm at least glad we can agree about the Traitor Lord-walk-forward-bug! And thanks a lot for the comment!
@the_holland yeah I I think it's fine for bosses to have moves like that but I think what would be better is if the boss had a bunch of moves that they do if you're in the air that would be harder or easier to dodge. that would make each boss more of a do I fight this one in the air or on the ground kind of deal which I think would be super cool.
also is that traitor lord thing a bug? if so I wish they would've fixed it.
I just assume it's a bug, because it happens so rarely and makes no sense. I think he's trying to back away from you, but accidentally goes the wrong way
A LOT of the comments here are saying that "repositioning is part of the boss' patterns" and you should have to memorize/remember that the boss can do that (ie. skill issue!!)
Yes. Repositioning IS part of the boss' moveset, and it is something players have to learn and adjust their playstyles to. But it can sometimes be a BAD part of their moveset. That's the whole point. For some bosses, like Crystal Guardian, Lost Kin, Hornet, etc. they can randomly jump (which would telegraph to any logical player that "hey, they're going to do an air attack,") and they end up doing nothing at all, which is jarring and unpredictable (AND unreactable, in some cases). Even worse is when the boss repositions or jumps at insanely fast speeds (which is very possible in this game since some bosses can just zip across the screen) which can just instakill a player that's in the "wrong" spot (a spot that was presumably safe, even to the brightest and most calculating players).
An example of GOOD repositioning (imo) is Hive Knight, specifically where he disappears off screen and reappears (with warning) to reposition. This isn't the ONLY way to do repositioning. I'd actually argue that turning off hitboxes for repositioning is a BAD thing because it can be jarring to phase through a boss unexpectedly (and this fix would also remove the inherent difficulty of some bosses like Nosk as others mentioned. Other games (ie. Nine Sols, you all should play it! Surprisingly amazing!) may fix the repositioning problem like this: enemies never have hitboxes that damage you, only their attacks have hitboxes. While this is inherently super different from Hollow Knight, and I wouldn't implement it in this game if I had the chance, I don't hate on it just for that-- it plays REALLY well, and I actually PREFER it, because I know I can walk right through bosses but the second they attack me I have to be wary. (Also, enemies' bodies having no damage hitboxes means the devs can play around with stronger and more interesting attacks, to balance things out!)
With all of that said, here's what I would do to address the inherent problem of boss repositioning mentioned in this video. Simply make the bosses NOT do that stuff. Replace their random jumps with other moves that work better for the purpose, like Hornet's jump and shaw, or Lost Kin's slamdown. Crystal guardian could have a new attack where he shoots a laser into the ground to launch himself to another location on the map. Other bosses can do other readable, fitting things. (I'd wager one of the major reasons these things weren't implemented was because the devs didn't think to or they didn't want to because of time, budget, effort, etc... It's much easier just to make the dude hop) If those attacks were the only things players had to calculate for, the game would FEEL a lot better to play on that front, and you can't really make the argument that the boss loses any "beneficial" difficulty or value, because anything weird they WOULD have done is replaced with something more reasonable.
With all of that said, I have hundreds of hours on HK and my favorite pastime in the game is to run pantheons. I love the game and its combat a LOT, and I've played many other platformers and metroidvanias as well. I'd never give Hollow Knight anything below a 10/10, especially on the combat front, but I can't lie and say the game is "perfect," and this random repositioning issue happens to be one of the MINOR things I wish could change. Hopefully Silksong solves this problem in its own unique way and makes bosses even more exciting, readable, and strategic than HK!
Also, you talked about telegraphing in the video, and this is one of the biggest things other comments are missing as well, I just wanted to point out that your logic is sound and it's fair to say that many repositioning moves aren't telegraphed to the same DEGREE as other attacks in HK. I also wanted to add that, if an attack or repositioning move telegraphs roughly WHERE it will happen (ie. where will the boss jump? left or right? straight up or towards you?) in some sort of way, that's an added plus for me. The more readable a boss is (ie. relaying the right info to the player to help them make the right decisions) the better, of course this is a generalization and it's not all black and white but you get my point!
Hi Adabat,
I read both of your comments, and I'm relieved to feel like someone finally gets me. I love everything you're saying, even the point about this being a minor issue (because it IS a minor issue in the grand scheme of things - Hollow Knight is no doubt a 10/10, even in combat!). And having the boss deal no damage - but only their attacks - although hard to implement into Hollow Knight as we know it sounds like an AWESOME fix!
I'd pin your wonderful comment, but that would seem too much like I'm patting myself on the back 😆
Thank you a lot for taking the time to write it, though. I really appreciate it.
@the_holland Hey, glad to see your response! I definitely didn't put as much time into the comment as you did into the video, of course, so I'd like to return the sentiment: thanks for making the vid, and keep it up!
@@AdabatOfficial You are too kind, Adabat, thanks a lot for the kind words!
Amen brother! Most people on the comments are missing the point entirely.
I think your solution would just make the fights straight up easier. I don't think repositioning is a very big problem, you just need to restrict your movement, which is fine. You're not supposed to fight every boss while flying. He is the boss and you are the Challenger, it's fine that he sets the "rules" for the fight, and you need to fight in a specific way.
That's a fair opinion, Matheus, even though I must say I disagree - although not on the point about making the fights easier, it definitely would do that.
Although you could easily counterweigh that by making the bosses harder in another way - like having them act quicker.
Thanks a for the comment, though!
Everyone here is ignoring games like Dark Souls, arguably the core DNA of Hollow Knight. It has no contact damage, and the bosses are just as hard, and positioning is just as important.
The concepts are not mutually exclusive. See AbsRad.
Never let bro cook again
Thank you ❤️
I feel like this isn't that big of an issue because you can either tie a pogo to a bosses attack (pogoing pure vessel while he's doing his triple swing attack to get over it and deal damage) or just get more damage by using desolate dive/descending dark or just nail spamming next to them but if they were to get a telegraph I think all they need is crouch animation as the player should get a feel of where the boss should land after they do a jump
Well said, Rohit! Perhaps a slightly longer crouching animation would be enough!
5:42 thats not a fix, 99% of boases become non issues if you remove collision, lets take nosk for example, he becomes a cakewalk. Edit: Abstard and Radiance don't count, I'm talking about bosses that had hit boxes to start.
i agree absrad is a cake walk
Well, Locker, I actually agree with you that this probably isn't a very good solution.
But if you *had* to implement it, what you'd presumably do with bosses like Nosk was to more clearly define that his Charge-attack *is* an attack and not just a repositioning move - so it *would* deal damage.
@the_holland There are ways to avoid the 'attack', it's not unfair and you shouldn't get yourself in a position where this 'attack' could harm you
But now you're cowering on the ground rather than dodging an attack. That's simply not skill, it's fear!
@the_holland This feels so ai generated
This is one of the main reasons I end up taking damage or outright dying to bosses, especially when playing on Radiance difficulty or attempting Pantheons with bindings. A telegraph fix would definitely help make the combat more fun, less frustrating, and more memorable.
I'm really glad you think so, Plagueknight :D
@the_holland It’s really frustrating to die just because a boss jumps in the same direction as the player. That aside, keep up the great work you’ve been doing, I’m looking forward to seeing more KR related content in the future!
@@plagueknight3056 I'll probably be focusing less on Kingdom Rush, but I've got at least one more video cooking!
Thank you for watching and commenting, it means a lot :)
@the_holland That’s unfortunate but understandable, I can’t force you to make more if you don’t want to. And you’re welcome
there is no repositioning problem, the only problem is you not being good enough at the game
Get 'em, Queen! ❤️
100% agree with you. I think most people in the comments missed the most important point: playing SAFE is NOT FUN, skillfully RESPONDING to a boss is fun.
If people think that removing contact damage makes bosses too easy, they haven't defeated radiant AbsRad. It just means those other bosses aren't optimally designed.
Personally, I think an additional solution would be to distinguish between simply repositioning and a reposition attack. It works just fine in games like Super Smash Bros and Dark Souls, I don't see why it wouldn't work in Hollow Knight.
Wonderful comment, love everything you're saying. Thanks for backing me up here, I really appreciate it
The entire problem feels like it is just you wanting to not touch the ground and bosses preventing you from doing it imo. Making bosses teleport is just not an option(thk, pv and Hive Knight are trained warriors who learned how to teleport from their king/queen so it makes sense to them). And telegraphing them is not needed. One answer, stay closer to the ground. Gpz is known for jumping a lot so you should only jump after he does the shockwaves and the running attack. The only boss that allows cool midair moves with downwards attacks is soul master/tyrant(his fakeout version just has a very fun way to dodge it for me). Bosses really are designed for you to stay on the ground more that stay in the sky(except markoth). Yes, repositioning can be unfair, for example, you want to Abyss shriek lost kin when he jumps to end the fight faster but he jumps right at you and you are still in the animation of the spell(Abyss shriek is the worst spell imo btw) and get hit. But you can just, not do that. There are no bosses requiring you to be in the sky for a long time, there is always some ground to stand on.
Okay, this sure was an unstructured load of thoughts...
What you're saying is true, Oshirothebubble - to not get hit, you should stay on the ground.
What *I'm* saying is that this is a flaw in Hollow Knight's gameplay design, and I wish it would change.
It's not that any fight really "requires" you to be in the air. It's that you *can* be in the air, but if you go there, you can get lucky and have nothing happen, or - as you point out - you can have Lost Kin randomly jump at you and make you take unavoidable damage.
And even though I love Hollow Knight, I think that's a design flaw.
You misunderstood the lost kin part a little. I meant that even if you are on the ground and use Abyss Shriek on the boss, it can still hit you while repositioning because you thought it will jump over you. And the worst part is that you can't avoid the damage because of the very long shriek animation.
Another way of getting unfair hits is when the boss gets staggered in the air and falls right at you. Also you can be too close to Pure Vessel and he falls on stagger and you get double damage which really sucks.
The clips of radiant fails because of repositions raise some questions to me. Gpz attacks with jumping and repositioning and the collector only way of moving is repositioning. You only have to worry about when he wants to grab you which is not a reposition. If you are trying radiant bosses, you should know the moves of the boss already and all you need to do is dodge them consistently and beat the boss fast.
One last thing:why is there traitor lord in the thumbnail? He isn't mentioned in the video except some gameplay footage and the reposition in his fight is just... walking. The jump is an attack.
Traitor Lord is in the thumbnail because he has that little walk-forwards bug that is impossible to dodge
@the_hollandwhat? I didn't understand you quite well.
@oshirothebubble Pardon me, I fixed it :D
I think people will generally agree that a repositioning move is just another type of attack.
However, I'm not sure I agree that all attacks need to be telegraphed. The end goal is to have the boss fight be something that's difficult at first, but that can be learned without too much trouble (...but with some trouble - these are bosses, they're supposed to be a challenge). Telegraphs are just one tool to accomplish this - they're little signs that you can learn and understand as you practice the boss. But this isn't the only way.
Take the "Massive moss charger" boss. It only has two attacks - it either jumps or dashes at you, neither of which are telegraphed. Is the boss unfair? Not at all. After the attack has started, you're given enough time to react before the boss reaches you. You talked about how bosses should do something to indicate where they plan on landing when their jump is done - but do they actually need to do this? Are these scenarios any different from the "massive moss charger" - they start their jump, you can see their trajectory, and you have enough time to decide if you need to rush or stay put. This certainly isn't trivial because you're not given much time to figure it out, but with a bit of practice, it's very possible, and that's exactly the point. If we think it's too difficult, the solution could be to just slow their jump down a bit, as opposed to adding a huge telegraph to the jump.
Another good example is the Mantis Lord. He attacks in a very easy-to-pick-up rythym, so you know when he's going to attack and when you have time time to strike. When he does attack, it's usually one of two options - the jump dive or the lunge, neither of which is telegraphed (if I remember correctly), but that's perfectly fine. You should know when it's safe to POGO on him, and when you should be a few paces away, ready to dodge, not because you've picked up on a telegraph, but because you've picked up on the rhythm.
Hi, Scottyjam,
Can I just say: thank you for making these counter-arguments in the way you did. I really appreciate how respectful you're being, and you make some damn good points too!
I actually agree with basically everything you're saying. Maybe I can comment on a few things?
1. I'd say Massive Moss charger *does* actually telegraph his attack, but it's in a very untraditional way: he always pops up a certain distance away from you, giving you time to react. As you note yourself, you're "given enough time to react" - to me, that implies a telegraph.
2. But your point about not showing *exactly* where Moss Charger wants to go is totally valid. I really think you're right that this might be too much. I'm also not 100% sure I even like the solution myself - I was simply trying to come up with some sort of fix for the more annoying bosses. But I think Moss Charger solves the problem very well already.
3. Traitor Lord is one of my favourite bosses, and he does actually have a telegraph for each of his attacks. It's still somewhat hard to react to his up-slash if you're pogo'ing him, but I really don't think this is a huge issue.
Thank you so much for the comment! I really enjoyed reading it :D
Goddamn the comment is cooking this dude
They sure are
My favorite counter to this is to D Dark if i dont know whats happening lol
That's the sign of a good Hollow Knight player, haha - and a very good instinct to have!
Most repositioning situations in bosses exist to either make you stop pogo'ing off the boss or to give the boss some space so you can't just spam hit him. Yes it doesn't have a telegraph, you're not supposed to "react" to it, it supposed to make you fight the boss in a certain way.
If that's true, that's poor game design - limiting freedom, fun and heavily punishing new players.
@the_holland you don't have that much freedom when fighting bosses and yeah, hollow knight is...punishing... who would have thought that
@@xdeluxezx There's a huge difference between "hard" and "poorly designed", so that sadly doesn't work
@the_holland how is it poorly designed?
@@xdeluxezx Well, if you can only predict and not respond to something that's going to damage you, then you end up having an event that can randomly damage you or randomly not damage you - which is more luck than skill and not fun at all
I honestly think bosses like Broken Vessel or Lost Kin should keep their changing position thingy, my only topic on this is that they should have prefixed spots where they can jump to, for example, for the middle of the arena.
That would definitely help, although maybe be a bit static? I also think a longer wind-up animation would help a lot too
Thank goodness, someone finally put into words what I felt like was the worst aspect of the game-worst precisely because it is a stain on what is otherwise one of the best aspects of the game.
I'm so glad to hear that you agree, InkLore!
I really do not want to sound harsh or mean here but to be honest, sounds like a skill issue.
You seem to have some issues with how you play the game:
1) You assume all attacks must have telegraphing. They do not. All repositioning moves are attacks too. Yes, some attacks seem rather unpredictable at first, but if you simply take the time to learn their movement then you will realize that they are more predictable than they at first seem. The only times repositioning attacks are unavoidable are when you actively respond in a way you should not, and you are punished accordingly.
2) You assume that you are the one calling the shots in terms of movement. You aren't. You are not supposed to have 100% freedom of movement during a bossfight, as part of the skill in playing the game is learning to follow the boss. The boss is the one dictating how the movement of the fight will go, and you have to learn to play around the bosses, as they won't play around you.
3) You assume staying in the air is how the game was designed to be played. That is partially true, but not to the extent you believe it to be. Yes movement in the air feels really good and I know you can be in the air, but that doesn't mean you should spend all your time there. You've gotta keep grounded in many fights. This also references back to point number 2 here. If a boss is in the air a lot, you can't just decide that you want to be in the air all the time too.
As a result of these three points, you assume there is a problem with how the game was designed and that how you play is not the problem. I'm also going to address how your four solutions would worsen the game:
1 and 2) Many bosses are designed around having physical hitboxes that damage you. Removing them would break most bosses and make them free wins, resulting in a much less engaging and less enjoyable combat. The only reason Radiance/AbsRad doesn't have one is because she is designed so that a hitbox would make it straight up impossible.
3) Teleporting bosses would make most of them worse too. If all bosses acted like Elder Hu and just teleported around they wouldn't be fun bossfights. Some bosses make teleporting work, but it won't apply to all of them.
4) If all bosses telegraphed their movements, the game would be way too easy and it would likely ruin bossfights. Where is the skill in simply avoiding where telegraphs indicate the boss will move? Simply looking at where these indicators are and avoiding them is not skill, it's just observation. You need to get a feel for how each boss moves around.
Here's my advice. You need to learn to flow with the boss, instead of stubbornly trying to go against how the boss moves. Air movement is incredibly fun, I know, but if a boss's attacks and movement clash with air movement, you have to adapt and stay grounded. Also, try to rely less on telegraphing. If you solely respond to telegraphing you will never truly learn how to fight these bosses.
If observing a telegraph and responding accordingly isn't skill, then I'd love you to tell me what is
Games like Dark Souls, arguably the core DNA of Hollow Knight, invalidate your points. It has no contact damage, and the bosses are just as hard, and positioning is just as important.
It wouldn't be hard to redesign bosses to show a distinction between a damaging reposition, and a non-damaging reposition.
Repositioning moves should only make the boss back away from you, that is why godtamer and broken vessel is annoying sometimes.
However, being an efficient killer is also part of hollow knight's skill expression. We all love to see a TAS jump around the boss like a chimpanzee, but knowing what button to press, finding a good time window to attack, and making the most use of that window take skill and are fun as well.
I agree with that, definitely! So maybe we could just add half a second to the crouch-down jumping telegraph for bosses like Hornet so the average player also has a chance to react?
If you are not constantly chasing down enemies, you will be able to react easily or don't even have to bother with repositions.
Repositioning is a punishment for over-agression, just like how parrying by hornet and hollow knight is a punishment for mindlessly mashing attack.
@@Doxxtrain I guess that makes sense
The fights definitely feel unfair when you get hit during the boss' repositioning.
Eventually, we get better and don't get hit so often so we can go past most fights with little to no damage taken.
However, even after beating P5, the repositioning takes away most of the fun I could otherwise have when learning the fights on Radiant.
Even Markoth - which is super difficult and also has a good part of his fight being RNG - feels like it's beatable.
Fights like Lost Kin and Hornet 2 make me wanna quit.
The regular/ascended fights are SO FUN, but being instakilled by the bosses jumping randomly doesn't feel good nor can be avoided through skill, you just have to play it more patiently/safely which is BORING.
Really good video (again)!
I agree with you! Very good points
A wise Hornet once said: "Git Gud!"
Shaw!
Also keep uploading,i like your videos!
Thanks a lot, Daniel! I really appreciate that ❤️
just move out of the way
This video is getting me so much good feedback
@the_holland Yeah almost as if you're one of few people thinking this is an issue, as other people can dodge this easily and consistently
You can make this an ego-thing, but then we're losing the argument in favour of trying to brag to each other
@the_holland Wtf are you blathering on about? I'm just saying if this "ruins combat", why does everyone find this issue to be non-existent.
I'd guess because it's quite a difficult thing to understand. And to differentiate between a good and a bad attack takes thought. Writing "skill issue" is just easier; I even predicted that people would do this in my outro, haha
When the game fight gets too real
Ye
Telegraphing these moves would make bosses more readable for sure, I'm guessing it was more of a design choice to make the bosses less predictable and more threatening that also incentivizes you to learn their movement patterns. I see your points tho and I respect you putting them out despite the inevitable brainrot in the comments. You are sure getting a lot of interactions for the algorithm!
Wow, thanks for being so cordial. I really appreciate that! And yeah, I guess you're right about the algorithm ':D
after 200+ hours of gameplay, I think (opinion) that eventually you just know when to move out of the way
I definitely agree with that. Question is: *should* it be that way?
As someone with 260 hours and skill issue
It's subjective skill matters more than time spend
I don't really understand?
@the_holland I don't know because new players tend to not know what to do so it might be hard for them.
@the_holland I meant the person that made the comment is wrong
There is not a fixed time u will learn to dodge the jumps
Like just because u have 200+ hours doesn't mean u can avoid
And just because u only have 50 hours doesn't mean u can't avoid the attack
Skill Issue
I'm so glad someone listened 🥲
Bro is a whiny baby
I'm sure you treat people around you nicely
this is valid criticism ngl, idk why everyone else is hating. these moves are unreactable and random which is just bad game design. giving them a short amount of startup would still make them more difficult to dodge to punish the player for just staying above the boss while not forcing them to take damage for playing the game in a certain way.
I'm so glad you agree, Drew - that's exactly right. Thank you for commenting
I do agree that repositioning moves are an attack, but if your going to class them as an attack, LEARN THEM LIKE ONE. It's not that hard to beat these bosses. (except for markoth.) But for literally every other boss in the game you can work around these moves and dodge them, just like a regular attack. And you can learn when to be in the air and when not to be in the air, just then learning when to dash, and when to run. It's the same thing. You just have to learn it like an attack and dodge it like you would an attack. Also you don't need a telegraph to know when an attack is going to occur and you can also just react to the attack happening. (I'm referring to repositioning moves)
Name one attack without a telegraph that you can "just react to"
@the_holland False knights jumping repositioning attack. There is no telegraph, but even just being on top of him pogo'ing him you can react fast enough to just, shade dash out of the way.
@@sushiverseichigo7264 That's a repositioning move, not an attack
@the_holland Says the one calling repositioning moves attacks????
@@sushiverseichigo7264 You stated that "(...) you don't need a telegraph to know when an attack is going to occur (...)" I'm asking you to defend that position by giving me an example of an attack that you can "just react to"
You seem to be getting a bunch of comments of derision and dismission, often undeserved.
I agree that for certain bosses, the repositioning is for most intents and purposes, an extra, subtle and unpredictable attack that lacks proper a telegraph.
Personally I would only consider the last solution you proposed, as it is just giving the player more control and the possibility to appropriately react, instead of drastically modifying the level of treath these bosses may pose.
I hope you have a good day.
Thank you very much for commenting, Sast. I really appreciate your civility, and I'm so glad we see eye to eye. I also do think the last solution would be preferable, if not then a totally different solution I haven't imagined yet.
And to you!
Pogoing in this game is completely broken because it trivialises most of the boss's moves. To change players playstyle they added unreadable jump repositioning to some bosses, so the players would play differently, staying more on the ground and being careful with chaotic jumping. Otherwise players would just pogoing on bosses the whole game.
That's an interesting theory, Pticman. I mean that. But still, I think it's a band-aid solution.
@the_holland you have a valid opinion and I don't understand hate in the comment, and yet I have to disagree with you. In some games telegraphed jumping would be a good solution, in HK I think it was an intentional choice. I think pogo attack was designed to be a "reward" to punish bosses for horizontal lunge attacks (which almost all bosses have in the game), so the player could jump over the boss when the boss is dashing toward the player and hit it with a couple Pogo attacks. The problem becomes when it starts to be the dominant strategy, I think it could be easily seen in the watcher knight fight. The optimal strategy is to just pogo the whole fight on them because 3/3 of their attacks are based on ground control while only 1 covers air. While I don't think it is a bad thing to have some bosses designed this way, it is important to keep strategies in check to not make the combat stale. For example you were speaking about hornets. Let's say you make jump telegraphed, what you have as a result is the boss has 5 ground-control attacks (lunge, nail throw, jump-repositioning, air lunge to ground, silk explosion) and 1.5 air-control attacks (silk explosion is mostly used after the initial jump, rarely on the ground). So what do you think would be the strategy if jumps are telegraphed? Just pogo on its head until it dies. Not fun at all. But in the current hornet version, all options to avoid attack (side-walking, jumping or dash on second hornet fight) are equally valid, while pogo remains a good tool to punish dash attack for additional damage.
You make good points, but I'm not sure pogo'ing would be as broken as you say. Maybe, but I don't think so. And if it did become the only good way to play, then I would want Team Cherry to redesign the fights to take that into consideration - giving the bosses more air-attacks,
@the_hollandthey have that the point of the comment
What?
Thank you so much for watching! Do you have any other ideas on how to fix the Repositioning Problem?
Not rlly bc it’s not a problem. I’m pretty sure all of the bosses have a crouch animation that’s noticeable before they jump so you should be able to avoid them.
Judging by the shown gameplay, I would simply suggest getting more grounded, it looks like you try to stay in the air way too hard
@@KevinFridge-qc2pp Try pogo'ing above Hornet and getting out of her way before she jumps *only* by watching the telegraph. I can't do it!
@alastor6430 Haha, that's totally fair, Alastor. It was to make the point that you really *can't* be too much in the air, which I think is a shame!
alright, i have 180 hrs in this game and have never really found this a problem, it is just part of the boss that you can easily learn, sorry if this sounds mean but don't moan about parts of the game that are perfectly fine, this is 100% not a problem and just something you need to learn to combat with the move set given to you as i and others have. you don't need to jump around to feel like ur dancing with the boss as you said. Also, bosses are supposed to be hard, what would fun if it was all easy and no challenge at all, its designed in such a way that if perfect for the game and would ruin it if removed or changed so just stop moaning and get used to it (srry this all sounds harsh but i think its a rlly bad idea)
The question if whether all types of hard are equally fun.
What if a boss randomly took away 1 mask of health every 10-90 seconds? Sure, that would make them harder, but fun? I don't know about that...
So if you feel like bosses would get too easy if they had proper telegraphs, you could just make them attack more often or quicker or whatever to make up for that!
@the_hollandthis is the worst reason I’ve ever seen
Okay
absolute skill issue
I appreciate that ❤️
Git gud
Yes i find this so annoying but i believe its just to punish player mistakes, anyway good video
Thanks! I appreciate that
i think it's intentional given how OP pogoing is
Hmm, I wonder why exactly pogo'ing would be OP? I'd love for you to elaborate
Also, I love how you keep references to earlier game bosses and go out of your way to not spoil absolutely anything. As popular as Hollow Knight is nowadays, it's refreshing to see someone care so much about their viewer's experience to the point where you'd not even show/explain anything about A.R., not even mention the name. I only started the game in 2023 so I had seen lots of spoilers when I got to it, unfortunately. Respect!
Wow, I really appreciate that, Vinicius. I was also very late to the party, only starting in 2022 or thereabouts, and I remember being spoiled myself - so I'm really glad you thought I didn't spoil too much!
I totally agree with you and I'm glad someone finally speaks up about it. It always felt annoying with bosses and some enemies having collision damage. The nail's range is so short it makes it so you have space almost perfectly and while it is a skill to master, I think it also limits the designs somewhat. I hope they do something about this in Silksong, the game would be much more enjoyable in my opinion
I'm so glad you agree, Matthew - and I hope they take this into consideration in Silksong, too!
Tbh…SKILL ISSUE
XD
Honestly this is a skill issue and you should stop pogoing so much
Just thinking out of the box here, man. You should try it sometime
@the_holland Thinking outside the box still requires thought
I know, but I believe in you
@the_holland This is 'no u' levels of counterarguments. Come up with something funny that still makes sense next time.
Will do
git gud
This is a real honour!