I know the "don't want to ruin it" feeling. I had a pretty intense hypothermic event following a 3 dive day (130', 85', and ending with a 40' night dive). I really felt exhausted from the 2 day dives, and didn't want to even go on the night dive.... but it was our "last chance" for night dive this trip. So... I went. It was all wrong for me from the start, but I stayed until I just knew I shouldn't anymore and called the dive. It still took another 20 min before I was completely out of the water, and an hour before I was out of the wetsuit. Don't know exactly what all happened in my body, whether a combo of narcosis and hypothermia, but I went through some strange and painful physical sensations for several hours before things, fortunately, improved. All because I did t want to ruin my partner's diving opportunities. (He wouldnt have gone without me.) Never again. Always listen to your body. If it's off, pay attention. You'll only put yourself and your dive buddy at risk.
Former comm diver here. A little over 30 years ago, with thousands of dives already under my belt, a simple, open-circuit dive. First dive of the day... 50' for 60 minutes. Withing rec diving tables, safety stop, no issued during the dive. Came up super fatigued. Bent over to take off a bootie and the world spun. Nausea and throwing up. Feeling like I wasn't getting air. A lot of the same symptoms as Woodie. Before I could even think about what was going on...they had me on O2 and on the way to a hospital with a chamber. Maybe an hour trip, symptoms coming in waves, with periods where I felt fine. They knew we were coming, and within fifteen minutes of arriving at the chamber, we were pressurizing to 60'. It took that 15 minutes because they took a chest X-ray first. As soon as we "dove," there was instant relief. Tired from puking and extreme anxiety, but other than that, all the symptoms were gone. I was diagnosed with a micro-rupture in the lungs that led to an air-gas-embolism. The diving physician (super-experienced, retired USN dive physician) told me that it happens, even on a perfect dive, especially if exertion is involved. The X-ray was looking for barotrauma, but it was likely a micro-rupture that wasn't visible on the films. The crew I was with didn't screw around. I had just come up from a dive and was displaying possible dive-injury CNS-related symptoms. They didn't care that it could be this or that. There was A CHANCE that it was a dive injury, and the first thing they did was to get me to help.
As a diagnostician, I appreciate the nuance in this discussion about symptoms. It’s always difficult to have insight into what your body is telling you, and it’s hard to admit something is wrong with one of your buddies! Thanks for adding your perspective Gareth.
Thanks for bringing Gareth into the conversation. He has such a great perspective on how to non-judgmentally look at the facts and feel comfortable sharing our stories so we can all collectively learn and improve from each other.
Gareth's point about the marketing of divers insurance vs the reality/availability of resources and the implicit reliance divers have in these insurances is an EXTREMELY good point. Honestly, alot of his points about the fallibility of "assumptions" and the culture of silence/fear within the diving community is invaluable.
As a shrink, I truly appreciate Gareth’s insights. His clear explanations of variability in symptoms, common errors in decision making, and opportunities to use these understandings to make small but meaningfully tweaks to improve safety, just 👏🏻!
Interesting how the stories topic came up. I have been skydiving long before I started SCUBA diving, and every evening after jumping all day, we’d start a bonfire, break out some beers and we’d share our stories. Like SCUBA, skydiving is also a technical sport that could also have dire consequences if things went wrong. As a newer skydiver, I learned so much listening to those stories, and I actually have had to apply that knowledge a few times to save myself or my student once I became an instructor. It is very important to tell stories, the good, bad, and ugly because that will not be the last time people go through that.
I'm not qualified to have a opinion on Woody's incident. Having said that the whole conversation and the concepts of human perception, before and after an incident and why people do the things they do is absolutely fascinating and not only applicable to diving incidents.
Guys, this is hands down one of the best episodes I've seen. This is great content. The short lesson i learned in my very first deco class is "there's no such thing as an 'undeserved' hit, hemodynamics is far to complicated to make those statements, Woody is a prime example of what that would historically be called. He did EVERYTHING right and followed the dive plan and deco model and went further to additional conservancy. We've all read about symptom denial and how people will deny deny deny, but it's great to hear it 'first hand' from the horses mouth, how this experience played out. I'm glad everything worked out and Woody is on the mend. Great job with this episode. Garath was an excellent guest!
41:20 Spot on, Woody. I'm NOT a diver but love the educational & safety aspects of your vids. You guys have opened up a new world to me; a world of rebreathers, deco, Trimix, laying line, etc. & you present this material in a way that diver newbies/non-divers can comprehend. Your audience clearly isn't sick of these educational aspects cos your subscriber-ship keeps growing. GREAT VID btw! SOOO glad you survived to be able to tell the tale, Woody.
My mom had a 13 hour heart attack at home with me. Her symptoms mimicked a Flu with some anxiety. It wasn't till she collapsed that we knew things were bad. For months and years afterwards I felt such guilt not knowing she was legit having a heart attack 😔She did survive and going forward even if she had the slightest symptoms of anything, I called 911 lol, I legit had PTSD. It very traumatic and the guilt I felt for not knowing what was really wrong with her lasted a very long time. Gus💜You did the best you could with the situation you were handling at that moment AND you are better for it in the end. Woody I hope your feeling much better and I'm great full you had such great dive partners who had your back💜
I'm sure you did what you could. The symptoms for heart attacks in women are so strange and different from men that they're hard to identify. I'm so glad your mom is ok.
@@LadyGeckoFoot Thank you💜Yes it was nothing like what you'd think it would be. What saved her life was the fact that she naturally has very low blood pressure. She definitely was given a second chance that's for sure.
Woody , I also got bent and seriously I did not know what was going on. I believe it was DCS. It started with lethargy ! I was pretty tired. After the first night I started experiencing shortness of breath and then elbows , shoulders and knees aching ! It was hard to sleep in my bed ! The next thing I experienced was a spasm in my left chest area. I thought it was a Heart Attack. I went to the Hospital and did the stress test even. It has been 8 months since it happened. I tell this because I never had a clue what was going on. I thought DCS was the issue but everything look about the same ! It was not a denial thing , I just didn’t know.. looking back yeah I now know. This is a great conversation you three are having ! Because I believe many have had this happen to them and they didn’t understand what was going on. You going over the GF factor on the Shearwater is an absolutely massive help !
i just had my first experience with a substantial DCS hit on a trip very recently. it was sort of the same thing. the guy was in complete denial, to the point where he almost convinced me out of getting him treatment. that being said, he could not walk nor support his own weight should have been obvious. he thought maybe his sugar was low or needed to eat something among many other things. its tough when you are immersed in the situation and this dive should have been in recreational limits. in hindsight, of course you can judge what you should have done different but in the moment, there is a lot happening in a very short time frame. This whole incident, also occurred over several hours. We finally convinced him to go to the chamber and thank God there was one on the island. after a week of treatments, he was finally released to travel home. great episode guys.. these lessons are important, the situation mentioned above was a huge learning experience to me. This episode is so helpful.
See? That’s a huge difference when the “victim” is telling you “I don’t need to go to the hospital” but they can’t walk, vs. when they look and behave normal. Huge difference!
@@DIVETALKI think this is an American thing vs a European thing. As a European I'd always be safe rather than sorry. In England we also get taught to check as you can't tell what's going on inside and you can fake recover from internal injuries. This is pretty well known I'd say. Not about the bends but things like punches, car accidents, falls, strokes, heart attacks, knifing etc so I would assume this was the same for the bends as for everything else
@@DIVETALKpeople will always sit in the back of my ambulance and blame their chest pain on some tacos they ate a week ago rather than the heart attack my monitor says they're having.
Gareth always manages to make you think. Very interesting discussion. I took his webinar course a few years back and it really changed the way I think about risk, how we communicate in our team, do debriefs, etc.
The human factor videos should be a requirement for all advanced divers. I really places how preconceptions and bias can so fundamentally affect how you make decisions. Highly recommended
I'm reading under pressure currently. It's definitely thought provoking. Its helping me to approach my own mistakes while learning to become a safer diver.
I was glad to hear Woody say it's OK for them to learn a lesson from this. It's important to be able to recognize that even if 99 % of the criticism directed at you is unjustified there is still that 1% that needs to taken on board.
First responder here, its really normal for people to think they dont need goto the hospital. Even when they're having a heart attack, even after they've been in a car accident. Lots of very human reasons they dont want to go. Also conditions rarely present as textbook cases and there is always a degree of uncertainty.
My SO used to be an EMT and part of his training was apparently basically "if you know someone isn't doing well but they're refusing transportation, just stick around and wait for them to lose consciousness" because it's so common for people to not want to go when they really really need to. (I don't think they meant actually sit there and watch them go downhill so much as "don't go too far because you're probably gonna be called right back again." When you're unconscious consent is assumed.)
Gus I would like a dive buddy and a friend like you. You treated Woody wonderfully! You were there for him when he needed him. Then you learned from your experience. I watch both you and Woody so I can learn. I like your styles. ❤
Your personalities are what entertains me but your commentary is what educates me. I've been watching for a few years now and i have tons more knowledge about diving than i previously had but it also taught me to be aware of when i think i know something do i actually know it or is my ego telling me i know the correct way. I don't dive but i use those lessons in daily life too.
WOW! An amazing discussion. Gareth is the GOAT for analizing cause and effect. Honest talk about what was going through your heads at the time and how it affected your thinking. Excellent. Any chance Gareth is speaking in Bonaire at the Meet-up? Woody, brother, I agree completely on the Texas Toast. Can't miss out on Texas Toast. 😊 God bless you guys, can't wait to see you again in Bonaire.
I am going to say that it’s a hard stop that if a person needs O2, or goes on O2, even if only because of a “maybe, better to be safe” then the decision to go in for further evaluation has been made. Full stop.
Sure, but at that time Woody wasnt reporting symptoms anymore. Even later when he was showing symptoms again and actually went to the hospital the Doctors still weren't certain it was DCS. The docs probably would have admitted him for observation if he had presented to the hospital sooner, but would he have had chamber treatment at that time, or significantly sooner than when he actually did?
I haven't been bent, but I've driven myself to the hospital after an adverse medication reaction. I talked myself out of going for 30 minutes, but I finally committed to going after asking myself, "What's the worst thing that is going to happen if I go? They tell me that I'm fine?" It turned out that my blood pressure was severely elevated (for me). Thankfully, my heart was fine, but it gave me so much relief to know that I wasn't having a heart attack.
There’s a video on Smarter Everyday, where Destin goes to NASAs training pool and dives to watch them work. Would be so awesome to watch you guys react.
Great video guys. Loved hearing from Gareth. Human factors play a huge part in patient safety in healthcare, the area I work in. It’s important to be able to be asked questions about what your thinking was and why you decided that course of action. It’s harder to answer openly and honestly when the consequences of what you’re talking about are already established rather than a hypothetical situation, but it’s an incredibly important conversation to have. Very interesting! Thanks.
Love the expert's intelligence and analysis, specifically with regards to changing memories. Every time you touch a memory you change it. Also love that he reigned you guys in on generalizations, this was one experience, it can be different for others. Then, when I heard Woody discuss how he felt, that's how I often feel, I have low bp, sugar and iron. Those symptoms can be so many things.
I really appreciated his comments around listening to stories. When we were learning to dive we watched so many videos, a lot of them stories about something going wrong during a dive, including some unfortunate deaths. But we watched them to learn. We talked about how we could apply what we were learning to avoid a situation. It made us practice skills over and over. Even now, we jump in with all our "tech" gear on a Florida dive boat and we have a plan for which skills we are going to practice on that dive. In the event of an emergency, we want the skills to be muscle memory, even though we don't dive every week because of where we live.
When I was doing my DM, I had a dive that went really badly (luckily no one got hurt) and I felt so ashamed and stupid afterwards, and heavily blamed myself for messing up. Other divers that evening noticed I was down (crying behind my wrap around shades, very cool) and it was really difficult but I told them how I messed up. Everyone at that table was more experienced than me, and every person there went “no wait that’s messed up, you shouldn’t have been doing that, you aren’t qualified to do that, that’s against the rules etc”. I had no idea I’d been in a situation, and given a responsibility I SHOULDNT HAVE HAD. If I’d kept my mouth shut, I would have blamed myself so heavily. Sharing that story with my peers taught me something I didn’t know. I’m a huge fan of sharing stories, sharing screwups!
45:10 - "Success is a terrible teacher, if you get it right at the first time". This is similar to what the chief engineer use to say at one of jobs, "there's nothing more treacherous than a working prototype". We learn from our mistakes. Things are so variable in the real world, and rarely look like what's taught in text books, that we'll miss things. As long as we're not in "the box" (coffin), we are always learning.
"As long as we're not in "the box" (coffin), we are always learning." - I would caveat that, we are always learning if we are reflecting on the activity. Learning can happen 'in the moment' but is much more effective if we reflect 'on the moment', focusing on the context and decision-making leading up to the event rather than saying "I won't do that again" or "I'll be more careful next time".
Hey Woody and Gus I’m a huge fan of your channel. I’m not a diver but I watch all of your videos and when Gus said dive buddy it got me thinking the only way I would go cave diving is if it was with y’all or MrBallen. Really enjoy your channel keep up the good work guys!
I sympathize. I am a physician and cave diver with over 600 cave dives. I took a ride in a chamber about 5 years ago (nearest chamber to Lake City in North Florida was Orlando FYI - chambers mostly do hyperbaric O2 for wounds because those patients can be denied without insurance and they come in during normal business hours. Even the University of Florida where I trained had no chamber accessible to divers) It turns out I was not bent - muscoloskeltal issue. However, I could have been. I had gotten a bit cold on a 4 hour dive with 90 min of deco and had to move fast to pick up gear before the dive site closed afterward, thought maybe I dehydrated despite in water hydration, etc.. Without that dive having been something “more than my usual” dives I would not have been thinking DCS so quickly but frankly something was wrong and it took about an hour for shoulder pain to really make think, OK this is getting worse not better and I need nearest ER. I admit to feeling bad having to tell my buddy the remaining 3 days of our 4 day dive weekend just got torpedoed.
Amazing and professional recap. Thank you for sharing this. All of these observations and lessons are far reaching, even beyond the diving community. Would love to have Brian and Gus recount their perspectives as well. Bless you all for the great videos and hard work while being honest. 😊❤
I was one of the "experts" in the comments that criticized you for the seemingly cavalier oxygen use delaying treatment (I said something along the lines of "if oxygen is helpful, then that means there's something seriously wrong and you shouldn't delay treatment"). So, I'm a diver and a hyperbaric/undersea medicine physician... But I wasn't there, and that's the important part. As your guest so eloquently stated, we are all informed by our perceptions and past experiences as well as the information that we have available to us. When you listed the other things that you were thinking about when you had your incident, it really supports the appropriateness of why you did what you did. In medicine, we call that a differential diagnosis, and it's important to note as your guest did, that the perception - what we think is going on - changes as the situation evolves. So now, I can't fault you at all for what you did, and I understand, too, the difficulties of the various parties communicating based on the information they have or had, and their perspective and specialties. I think that if there are additional lessons to be learned by those watching your video, they are: 1) if you think a condition is one thing, and you do the appropriate thing to treat that condition but you do not have an appropriate response, then you MUST NOT be afraid to reevaluate the possibility of it being something else, or to change your approach to treatment, and 2) when you're approaching an emergency situation, your job is to think about the worst thing it could be, and only THEN find out what it actually is. That way, you don't forget about the possibility of the bad stuff. 3) medicine is hard - especially for conditions for which there aren't any objective laboratory or imaging tests, and there are multiple presentations. So there's no reason to feel like an idiot if you have to get checked out, and it turns out to be something minor. Don't be afraid to get help. In the end, I think that's what you did, and I'm glad everything worked out okay, and that you are continuing to provide a service to the diving community with discussions like this. Stay safe, and happy diving!
I like how everything turn out for the best and the fact that you shared this story showing that even someone who discussed and commented all those mishaps and accidents found themself in the similar situation and turn it to great learning experience, great video and open up some questions. Keep up the good work, and dive safe!
I really appreciate how open they are about everything that happened and about their own possible mistakes too, such great learning experience these videos for any diver.
Let alone the consequential effects of DCS, contributing physiological problems such as hypoxia, hyperoxia, hypo- or hyperthermia, hypo- or hypercapnia can not only have overlapping symptoms but can, as Gareth says, also make the victim the least able to diagnose their condition. That for me means that I need to have access to an organisation and expertise that can do the heavy lifting for me if I have a problem because I may not be able to self-diagnose or handle the basic admin of my treatment.
Crazy timing of this, a local Dive Instructor sent me info on the HFID 2 day course coming to my local area yesterday and today get alert for this video. Feels like I got to sign up.
Ive got a few thousand dives in mainly from working full time as a dm, in the community we used to do some pretty bad dives regarding profiles quite often. But we were very cautious when it came to getting any sort of symptoms. Meaning we would be straight off to the deco chambers and dive physicians just in case. There were two fatalities I know of personally, but they were both freediving at the time. Bottom line for me is regardless, if you have any sort of symptoms out of the ordinary dont mess about, get yourself straight to a chamber asap. Better safe than sorry.
I am NOT a diver, nor will I ever be due to disability issues, but I love your videos, and I HAVE LEARNED a lot. It has made me very Interested in what you do, and I'd support even my son if he wanted to do it. I would now, make absolutely sure he was educated well and CORRECTLY, because of what I've learned watching dive talk!
Very good discussion. I must say, I was one of the folks very critical of the situation in Abaco and moreover, disappointed with what seemed like a lack of accountability on the behalf of the divers themselves. To me, it seemed like the focus was on the shortcomings and shortfalls of DAN, which has, in my opinion been a highly credible organization. I immediately thought that Gareth should be involved in the review (and emailed him that opinion as well). This video was great though, and I applaud Woody & Gus for their openness and willingness to be self-critical in the reflection of the situation, which is hard to do. I do think Gareth was the conduit for this and I learned lots from the discussion. Perhaps education and entertainment is possible. Thank you again for providing this discussion. My hope is that it helps get more focus on Human Factors and Gareth’s work. He is doing the most important work in the scuba diving industry.
Man, I love this discussion. Sounds like it’s time for a new rule to be added: never listen to the casualty. It’d be awesome to see you guys leverage your experiences and connections to create a short screening tool that can be used in the field and easily incorporated into practice. I think it should be a primary point before any dive that should there be any signs or symptoms of a medical event-no matter how small-a diver will be taken to the hospital out of precaution, period. Leave no room for doubt or discretion. And if you all need a grant or medical writer, hit me up :D
As a newer open water diver, I think this content will not only help me be a better dive buddy. But also help other new divers know what to watch for with their dive buddies.
This open conversation is very inspirational in my mind you can take the thought process and apply it to many other facets of life the idea of rationalization of the actions woth separation from the individual makes the help or input on said topic alot less like a personal attack to a thought conversation on why these actions happen and what situation may have created the particular situation gus and woody you guys truly help me learn how to understand situation in life better and more intellectually your like the two uncles that are very enthusiastic about alot of diving knowledge but actually teach life lessons thay apply to alot of real life issues
I've been a fan of the channel for a couple years now and you guys have opened my mind and blown my mind so much! I really want to try scuba diving one day, and although there are a lot of reasons that right now, I'm kind of scared of trying, I still know I definitely want to try because I now know so much more about diving and I know enough to know that I don't know enough and that I have a lot to learn before trying. But I have started practicing in a local lake with my family. We get swim goggles and snorkels and grab rocks off the bottom. And I had such an amazing experience once, just last year. I was swimming through probably fifty yards of waist deep water full of plants and algae when suddenly it opened up to about just over my head depth, and the floor was smooth and pebbly, and the sun was shining right through the water, and I was surrounded by hundreds of three to four inch long fish, a few different schools of different species. It was absolutely incredible and breath taking! And that was just in a small man made reservoir in rural Montana. I can't imagine a place like the Bahamas or coral reef or something like that. You guys are incredibly entertaining and informative. I would know nothing about all the top tier and excellent professional divers or the beautiful caves you guys visit. Please never lose hope in what you're doing. I always love to see you guys have uploaded and I always watch whatever you upload! ❤
My thought when I watched the first video and remains the same now is that if I had a dive buddy on O2 for any reason once we are out of the water our next stop is the hospital. Why take a chance.
People can smile and learn at the same time... Not a diver but I'm definitely considering, after getting hooked on your videos. DEFINITELY learn with each vid. Thanks for being a great pair faces for the diving community. Stay safe.
I used to have a lot of support for Woody. But well-done? That’s not something I can support. On a more serious note, thanks for the update video! It’s always easier to see things in hindsight.
I'm not a diver, but in aviation, they say rules and procedures were written in blood. You have to learn from problems, deaths, etc, or you'll never get better and safer.
I looked at DAN as well and definitely got the one would get picked up by a chopper. Granted I we got our certifications in Hawaii, so maybe that is the case there, but that wasn't spelled out, it sounded they make it happen wherever you are. I live near some ocean diving spots and have heard stories about dive boats leaving people. When we went diving in Mexico they dumped us off in a jellyfish swarm. You really have to assume the worst can happen no one is gonna worker harder to keep you safe and alive than you are willing to.
I dived in a jellyfish swarm once, and everyone else much more experienced than me was like “no it’s fine, you just need to break through the top layer and then it’s all fine”. Not a single person thought about when we had to come back up, face first into a layer of jellyfish. We ended up having to blast a hole in them using an octi so we could get up, because a few of us were starting to freak out and didn’t want to surface.
I always find it interesting how its way more common in America to not have this first instinct of using medical help for minor things. Im not putting blame on any of you guys. I would however say as an European me and all of the people around me would immediatly bring each other to hospital or atleast a doctor for first assessments when something happens that we seem as overly abnormal. And i feel like its a social conditioning with having medical bills, insurance troubles and what not in your subconcious mind all the time growing up.
The main issue in the US is our healthcare system makes it so much more expensive. It really has nothing to do with social conditioning for me at least. I served in the US military and have to pay out pocket to take care of all of my “non-military related injuries”. This country won’t take care of its veterans let alone its people. Most of the European countries have an amazing healthcare system. I wish the US would follow suit to be honest.
It's social conditioning, all right, but it has nothing to do with the cost of medical care. The US dive industry is saturated with pretentious, egotistical dickheads. They also don't have the defamation laws many other countries do. People are terrified to go to the chamber because they're going to be destroyed on Internet forums by people whose only way of elevating themselves is to tear others down. People would rather die than suffer the embarrassment. As for the cost of care, no one who's dying is thinking about what it's going to cost. BTDT. In the USA, you can't even be asked about ability to pay until an emergency is resolved. Woodie wasn't in the USA, which is why the hospital wanted money up front.
I have a serious question. I don’t have an Amex card with 50K of available credit to cover the cost of a chamber ride. Had I been in Woody’s shoes, I likely would be dead or seriously injured. Should I trust DAN any more? If the answer is yes, why should I trust them? Other than the limited info that DAN is “working on their procedures” as a result of Woody’s incident it’s been radio silence from them. This doesn’t instill me with confidence in DAN. Should we be looking for other companies that offer dive insurance? I suspect that there aren’t many other options available for us. I am still waiting for answers from them.
I think that's the challenge in this situation, let's set aside your confidence in DAN...let's say DAN is no longer an option...now what? Have nothing? I heard there is Dive Assure but they have a ton of limitations, and I assume Dive Assure and any other companies like them follow the same recipe, partner up with companies around the world to provide these services, so if you get bent in Jamaica or Mexico or wherever they can take care of you; will having one vs the other provide different results? I bet they would use the same contractors. So in this case I think you have to stick with DAN because there are no better options out there, the only thing we can hope for is that DAN (and other companies like them) learns from these incidents and make changes that benefit all divers out there. Tweak their procedures, ramp up their capabilities (contractor database), etc.. And for all the people that say "They are only making changes because they've been 'exposed on Dive Talk'" I say GREAT! We're glad to influence change in our industry that benefits divers globally. Whether those changes happened because DAN wants to get better or because they're being "forced" to get better, who cares? they are still changing for the better and that's all I care about.
@@DIVETALK I’m right there with you guys! It doesn’t matter why or how the needed changes initiated, only that they are…. While it sucks that this happened to anyone, I’m thankful that it happened in a set of circumstances that the unfortunate diver had the means to react in a way that minimized the potential bad impact. I’m so thankful that we had the outcome that we had. You have to take care of yourself, there aren’t many people around that can communicate directly with fish!!! 😂
@@DIVETALK I feel the problem in this case is the country. There are countries with expensive healthcare. But it's usually illegal to deny proper emergency care, when the patient can't cough up the payment upfront or isn't sufficiently covered. There are countries with cheap healthcare where this could definitely happen. It seems the Bahamas is both very expensive and doesn't have anything in the way of insuring proper medical emergency treament for patients. Which is kinda messed up. And a little suprising given it's tourism based economy.
I’m just saying… I have to order transcripts for lectures and webinars for work, and the turnaround is incredibly quick, no matter which service we use. Even more so with AI tools available now. Happy to hear they’re being responsive, but those transcripts should already be done.
I had a PFO closure at age 14 (started diving at 11/12, 22 now) I found out I had one because my mum got bent and discovered she had one. I was lucky to not get the bends prior or since, been sidemount for a long time finally looking at doing rebreather this year hopefully. Great video and very informative as always
I’m a physician and talked myself out of being treated on Catalina Island when I woke up with joint pains after diving several cold water air dives to 130 feet. I now suffer from avascular necrosis in multiple joints from that terrible decision. I thought I hurt my knees from getting thrown up against the steps with the rough water or just over exercising since we had hauled gear up and down steep hills. When I did finally get some hypobaric treatment almost a week later much of the damage was done and the hospital in Phoenix didn’t give me nearly a deep enough or frequent enough treatments,although the pain was relieved while I was diving. Btw,I also hobbled back to the house 1/4 mile from the back pasture,took a shower,waited until the ER times were less and than drove myself 40 miles to the ER with a badly broken fractured right tibial plateau so I’m not the best person to decide my own treatment.
I work very heavy construction, theres many near miss situations that are not reported and best believe someone else will do the same thing but not be so lucky. Acknowledging is the first step to resolving the problem.
Totally different matter, but Woody’s case reminded me of my own personal health scare a few years ago. I had a fever, and was experiencing muscle pain. I thought it was the flu, and my physician thought it was some other infection and told me to come in the next day for a blood test. At midnight, I started running a really high fever, and my family took me to the ER. The doctors told me I had a fever of 40 degrees Celsius (104 in Fahrenheit), and that the blood test they ran showed I had an acute liver disorder and I had to be admitted because they had no idea what kind of liver disorder I was experiencing. The doctors tested my blood for days until they found out it was Hepatitis A. It turned out I was in the early stages of it. I made full recovery, but I don’t blame my physician for not spotting it on that visit. My fever was not that high then, and my symptoms only started worsening that night. My face and eyes started to turn yellow after I was admitted, so I wasn’t even showing the symptoms. The lesson I learned was to take all the vaccines that are available, even if they are expensive. I’m so glad that Woody was fine after he got treatment, but I don’t want to blame anyone in this situation because things always seem clear in hindsight.
Is “expectation bias” a part of why we don’t do a good job of recognizing a bad situation? I always wonder about how to separate normal positive learning from expectation bias.
I have been in similar medical type situations with friends. It’s nothing to be ashamed of but Gus was in a state of panic out of concern. The way to combat panic is experience. Gus now has more experience. Gus did nothing wrong here. Making a mistake and learning and then telling everyone is something to be very proud of. Woody is in the clear here too because he brought two very good friends capable of getting him the help he needed. That’s is the protocol.
I'm not a diver, I'm merely a crisis manager by profession for coming up to 15 years and I can tell you this much. This video combined with the initial video will safe lives. Thank you for sharing.
You simply don‘t know what inside your body goes own, maybe your body had somekind of immune reaction lowering your normal capabilities! We simply are a far cry away from understanding our own system! It happened, despite being hit by total surprise you guys did the right thing, plenty of reason to be very happy! That said of coarse the educational part and your effort to learn that we always need to expect the unexpected is again why I enjoy watching you guys so much!
19:50 thank you. 100% you force them. No choice in it for the "victim" as they might be affected by the injury, might feel guilty etc, any risk of the bends it's hospital time. However is this a European thing where we don't have to balance cost vs safety?
@@DIVETALK I meant more cultural lessons we learn which affect the way we interact with the world. BTW love your videos. I'll never be able to do the kind of diving you do but I love hearing about it from you and have done my first dive since watching you
I think the fact that America doesn't have free health care and health care can be quite costly in the US must play a part to some degree. Europeans may be apprehensive as well but probably for different reasons that aren't cost I'd imagine.
I just need to comment, because your talk really struck me. Three weeks ago me and my wife lost our child. We went to hospital when she was pregnant in week 24 with horrible back and chestpain, but she really didn't want to stay in hospital, because she had some important tasks to do the next few days. The staff said it's up to her. I had the strong feeling of NO, she has to stay no matter how much she objects. So we stayed leading to a week of hospital, leading to constant supervision of baby and mother, to an emergency cesarian with a baby that had a chance to life, but sadly died after birth. BUT, if we wouldn't have stayed in hospital at that moment, the baby would have died in the belly for certain and it would have also been life threatening for my wife. I read stories of women falling into a coma and liver failure, because they only got pain medication instead of staying in hospital. So: Yes, when you are the victim ALWAYS tell others something is odd. And when you are the one being told: You're the one that needs to protect them and take the safe route, because they are not in the position to judge!
Halfway through now, and wanted to point a couple things out, Woody may not recall as well now, but I remember him dwelling some on how he didn’t want to impact the night or the whole trip for the others. Gus is really trying to justify his mindset, but it comes off sounding silly, because like their guest points out it’s not ridiculous to implore someone to go against their will. I feel bad the guys feel they have to justify their actions and reactions, but people are so toxic for no reason. I’m hoping their responses are overreactions in some cases, some of these questions sound like legitimate ones, how did you not know is an important topic of discussion, because the show is dive talk and the hosts are typically our experts.hope the guest gets to speak at some point because the proper mindset for these types of incidents should be shared, even if Woody and Gus did it wrong this time.
By watching this I got a feeling that "it can't happen to me because I'm now aware of all of this". But when I really think about it, this doesn't make any sense and I know I just have to be as aware as possible and take no chance. Weird feeling. Anyway, great video thanks for sharing!
I just want to say that what you do is educational, not just on the dive aspect. You going through this helps explain to normal everyday people what it feels and looks like to be bent. You helped find flaws in the system that could also save lives in the future. Personally, I won't dive due to cold sensitivity and health, but being able to see what you see (thanks to the videos) is another world entirely. Thank you for sharing that with us.
I think a lot of the “denial” in these situations is less about ego and more about not wanting to “ruin” a nice vacation and it happens in all sorts of situations, not just diving.
I would of been dead, I'm autistic and have adhd I panic off the slightest bit of stress. The bottom of the sea is not the place for me 😆 you guy's are legends just for having the guts to go down there in the first place.
So, had you immediately taken him to the nearby hospital while he was in the ‘I’m ok’ phase of the wave, what would they have done beyond basic vitals checks that might have detected something? Or would the vitals check have found something? If they cleared him to go home, your resolve to not pursue it further could have lasted much longer.
Denial isn't about ego, it's a difficulty coming to terms with the severity of a situation. Your mind has to process, is this really happening, and is this really happening to me. To do this your mind has to go through the process of dismissing alternative conclusions. So when Woody was feeling better, your mind would have gone oh problem solved, here is an alternative conclusion, I was simply overreacting. But then when the symptoms started again your brain had to reasses oh shit, I was wrong again. So Ur constantly second guessing urself and hence the process of accepting the severity of the problem and that its happening to you gets further and further delayed... until it becomes very clear, and unfortunately the point where it becomes clear is the point where it's becoming too late. So Denial isn't about ego, it's about assessing the risk of taking action over something that might or might not be minor vs this could be serious. In these situations the people going through it are not to blame, our mind will always start with the least risk scenario if the severity isn't obvious. However medical professionals should know better. Once the chamber was recommended, it should have been done.
Great discussion!! I can’t comment on all the topic I have in my mind.. not enough time or space 😁.. (yes, for those who doesn’t know I’m a physician with only 29 years taking care of critical patients 😌😏)
Galapagos doesn’t have any evacuation. We had to take our entire live aboard back from the furthest island,a 24 hour ride,for a guy who got bent. This is a remote place,especially the far islands.
This was a really really productive video. I respect so much you guys don’t hide stuff and take accountability. I mean I don’t dive but I feel like if I were in Gus’s shoes I would have a hard time just beeping like on your opinion dosent matter we are bringing you to get help. Also I think back to when you guys say you have friends that aren’t rich and they cave dive and it made me wonder like how much is Dan? Is ot even affordable to people that probably don’t have a bunch of money?
Thx for the update about Abaco. luckily everybody is in good health again. and indeed thx for some answering the questions a lot of divers where thinking about. This is stuff you don't want to become experts in. (or to much experienced in) Did you know there's a difference between DAN USA/Asia-Pacific and DAN Europe. Turns out that the problems you had with the payments would not have been happend if you had the insurance from DAN Europe.
@@DIVETALK But it does matter though because to me it really speaks of a deeper problem in the culture at DAN. If the only reason they are treating you right and enacting change is because it's Woody, there has to be no shortage of people who ended up in a similar situation and we're left hanging by DAN.
I think I can actually add something to this conversation about denial, which surprises me a little bit. With Woody's case of the bends being neurological, there's some interesting parallels to my experience with a traumatic brain injury I had four years ago that I want to touch upon for people who maybe haven't experienced a neurological event or injury. For context, I had recent first aid training, and had spent many a day chatting with a friend who was a firefighter-paramedic in Canada and learning more advanced first aid than was taught on my course. I had more knowledge about neurological symptoms than most first aiders on my course did. If you've never experienced a neurological event, it can be difficult to comprehend that during such an experience your brain is not as capable as it would normally be, but you might be absolutely convinced it's working normally at the time, because your brain, at that moment in time, isn't necessarily capable of recognizing that you are currently impaired. In my case, my neurological impairment was a result of falling off a horse. When I hit the ground with the back of my head, I was out for a moment, I don't know how long, and I remember being unable to coordinate my limbs for a few moments after that. My sister, who witnessed my injury, doesn't remember that being a thing - but that's because she wasn't in my brain at that time and able to understand what I was trying to do - what I remember is feeling significant stress over the fact my arms and legs were jerking around and not moving where I wanted them to go. After I'd managed to sit up, with some assistance, and get more of my consciousness back, I did decide I didn't want to go to the hospital, thinking I just had a regular concussion, and would recover over the next week to month. Again, at that moment in time, my brain was impaired, so was I mentally fit to make that judgement? Probably not. Like Woody described with his case of the bends, initially, I was really bad, then I started feeling better, then I declined again several hours later - I lost coordination again, and started feeling really tired. I had enough cognitive ability to recognize I needed to stay with my sister and my parents instead of going home, because I had serious concerns about what would happen if my condition worsened if I was home alone with no one to monitor me. Throughout that initial 24-48 hours, one thing was consistent - my speech was slurred, and my balance was off - I could be sitting in a chair, and my head would tilt to the side, because I felt like I wasn't upright, or I might try to walk, and be staggering like I was drunk. Initially, I didn't even want to walk, I crawled everywhere. In the end, I did go to a doctor, and from there, to the hospital, some time later. I don't remember how long - neurological symptoms again, some of that time is just gone for me. I only know they assessed me as having suffered a mild to moderate coup-contrecoup injury to the cerebellum and frontal cortex. It's easy to say "you should have known", but I think it's really easy to ignore that the neurological symptoms themselves make it very difficult to accurately assess yourself, even if you do have enough knowledge to make an informed guess as to what's going on. Altered states of consciousness are a significant deficit in accurate self-assessment. Meanwhile, your friends, family, bystanders, they don't know what's going through your mind, so they may miss symptoms simply because they're unaware you're struggling with something specific, and you're at the time unable to describe exactly what it is you're struggling with. Again, it's easy to say Gus should have known, but he's not Woody, so he didn't know much about Woody's mental and physical state beyond what he could see as an outside observer, and what Woody was able to tell him while Woody himself was impaired.
Warning, long post: I watched the video and wondered if anyone examined the cultural element in how Woody's illness was handled. I'm an American who has spent long periods of time outside the US and my husband is European, but an enthusiastic, libertarian American convert. We are older than Gus, but younger than Woody. We completely understand why these guys handled things this way. When Gareth asked Gus in this segment why he didn't just bring Woody to the hospital against his wishes, we looked at eachother and "got it". We prob. would have also respected Woody's decision. My husband laughed at the time where I fought with medics who tried to take me in one time (not dive related) I actually felt violated and would not want another person to feel this way. This would affect how I handled an incident like this. We wonder if the people who are putting down these divers are from other countries, younger generation and/ or just don't have the same pov that many of us have here in the states, where our civil liberties and personal freedom are so important and ingrained. We definitely all learned from this, and will most likely drag people to hospital now, just in case. However, this "sport" on some boards to retroactively blame Woody's friends for "not knowing" or being negligent in not forcing him to go to the hospital is ridiculous.
Idk if you’re going to see this @divetalk , but as someone who studied neuropsychology for many years, here’s my take on this: I totally understand what happened. It’s not arrogance or stupidity. Many people that are severely injured, sick, or in some other form of peril don’t realize it at first. They also express confusion if they’ve followed all the rules, because in theory, it shouldn’t happen. Examples: “I didn’t realize I was shot in the leg until much later.” “How did I get cancer??? I live a super healthy lifestyle, have nutritious meals, exercise regularly, and do my best to get enough sleep!” “I was so lost in the amazing view of the mountain, I did not realize that the soil beneath my feet was so loose.” There are also plenty of people in severe circumstances that try to “walk it off” because they don’t feel that bad and don’t want to ruin an event for others. I’m so glad you shared this experience with us, but please don’t feel so stupid/guilty. This happens ALL THE TIME. And like you said: “It’s totally okay that we’ve all learned our lesson.” You’re humble, insightful, and most importantly, human. Humans make mistakes, and taking it in stride is an excellent mark in character.
I have been bent a number of times. 1 open water course bad headache on the boat. Gone when I reached shore. 2 no symptoms but poor judgement driving home. Totally clear mind. 3 night dive from shore. Totally exhausted dragged my carcass on to the beach. I was done. (Had no idea what was going on) Just now realized I must have been bent. 4 multiple times crawling on my belly drooling and nausea. All but one was a 2 dive day. None were deco and I followed my computer religiously. I have 54 cave dives some deco and never bent. I live in DR and I doubt they have a chamber.
I was trying to figure out, if you knew woody was bent, how hard would it have been to go back down to level his pressure? Or would he have drown, because some people say as soon as they're under pressure they go back to normal.
My basic understanding is, that you don't go down, because you don't know exactly to what depth and for how long... and maybe most importantly, during the time down you would amass even more (a lot more) decompression time. So you would need even more time to go slowly up and off-gas. Plus you're under water, so if anything else happens, you're in trouble. You would need the air to do it, which you didn't plan for and probably don't even have on the boat. Your buddies would also amass more decompression time... so ultimately it creates more risks/problems than benefits.
going to the ER room for every thing that makes you concerned is a bad idea in America - the penalty financially is too large you can't just do that. I would be bankrupt if I followed the safety standard of advice that everyone always says for all industries and all situations.
I mentioned this elsewhere but I’m curious if general search and rescue insurance would work at all - in a way, once you’re topside it’s kinda like any other backcountry rescue. And by that nature, IMMEDIATE air transport is pretty standard. I’m also curious, what the hell else would DAN do other than transport people to the nearest level 1 trauma center? Sounds like there’s not a whole lot of “rescuing” in diving… what the hell else do they do??
I know the "don't want to ruin it" feeling. I had a pretty intense hypothermic event following a 3 dive day (130', 85', and ending with a 40' night dive). I really felt exhausted from the 2 day dives, and didn't want to even go on the night dive.... but it was our "last chance" for night dive this trip. So... I went. It was all wrong for me from the start, but I stayed until I just knew I shouldn't anymore and called the dive. It still took another 20 min before I was completely out of the water, and an hour before I was out of the wetsuit. Don't know exactly what all happened in my body, whether a combo of narcosis and hypothermia, but I went through some strange and painful physical sensations for several hours before things, fortunately, improved. All because I did t want to ruin my partner's diving opportunities. (He wouldnt have gone without me.) Never again. Always listen to your body. If it's off, pay attention. You'll only put yourself and your dive buddy at risk.
Former comm diver here. A little over 30 years ago, with thousands of dives already under my belt, a simple, open-circuit dive. First dive of the day... 50' for 60 minutes. Withing rec diving tables, safety stop, no issued during the dive.
Came up super fatigued. Bent over to take off a bootie and the world spun. Nausea and throwing up. Feeling like I wasn't getting air. A lot of the same symptoms as Woodie.
Before I could even think about what was going on...they had me on O2 and on the way to a hospital with a chamber. Maybe an hour trip, symptoms coming in waves, with periods where I felt fine. They knew we were coming, and within fifteen minutes of arriving at the chamber, we were pressurizing to 60'. It took that 15 minutes because they took a chest X-ray first. As soon as we "dove," there was instant relief. Tired from puking and extreme anxiety, but other than that, all the symptoms were gone.
I was diagnosed with a micro-rupture in the lungs that led to an air-gas-embolism. The diving physician (super-experienced, retired USN dive physician) told me that it happens, even on a perfect dive, especially if exertion is involved. The X-ray was looking for barotrauma, but it was likely a micro-rupture that wasn't visible on the films.
The crew I was with didn't screw around. I had just come up from a dive and was displaying possible dive-injury CNS-related symptoms. They didn't care that it could be this or that. There was A CHANCE that it was a dive injury, and the first thing they did was to get me to help.
As a diagnostician, I appreciate the nuance in this discussion about symptoms. It’s always difficult to have insight into what your body is telling you, and it’s hard to admit something is wrong with one of your buddies! Thanks for adding your perspective Gareth.
Thanks for bringing Gareth into the conversation. He has such a great perspective on how to non-judgmentally look at the facts and feel comfortable sharing our stories so we can all collectively learn and improve from each other.
Gareth's point about the marketing of divers insurance vs the reality/availability of resources and the implicit reliance divers have in these insurances is an EXTREMELY good point.
Honestly, alot of his points about the fallibility of "assumptions" and the culture of silence/fear within the diving community is invaluable.
As a shrink, I truly appreciate Gareth’s insights. His clear explanations of variability in symptoms, common errors in decision making, and opportunities to use these understandings to make small but meaningfully tweaks to improve safety, just 👏🏻!
Interesting how the stories topic came up. I have been skydiving long before I started SCUBA diving, and every evening after jumping all day, we’d start a bonfire, break out some beers and we’d share our stories. Like SCUBA, skydiving is also a technical sport that could also have dire consequences if things went wrong. As a newer skydiver, I learned so much listening to those stories, and I actually have had to apply that knowledge a few times to save myself or my student once I became an instructor. It is very important to tell stories, the good, bad, and ugly because that will not be the last time people go through that.
I'm not qualified to have a opinion on Woody's incident. Having said that the whole conversation and the concepts of human perception, before and after an incident and why people do the things they do is absolutely fascinating and not only applicable to diving incidents.
Especially the part about an extra well done steak.
Guys, this is hands down one of the best episodes I've seen. This is great content. The short lesson i learned in my very first deco class is "there's no such thing as an 'undeserved' hit, hemodynamics is far to complicated to make those statements, Woody is a prime example of what that would historically be called. He did EVERYTHING right and followed the dive plan and deco model and went further to additional conservancy. We've all read about symptom denial and how people will deny deny deny, but it's great to hear it 'first hand' from the horses mouth, how this experience played out. I'm glad everything worked out and Woody is on the mend. Great job with this episode. Garath was an excellent guest!
I believe, we as divers need to talk more about all these lessons. I loved this
41:20 Spot on, Woody. I'm NOT a diver but love the educational & safety aspects of your vids. You guys have opened up a new world to me; a world of rebreathers, deco, Trimix, laying line, etc. & you present this material in a way that diver newbies/non-divers can comprehend. Your audience clearly isn't sick of these educational aspects cos your subscriber-ship keeps growing. GREAT VID btw! SOOO glad you survived to be able to tell the tale, Woody.
My mom had a 13 hour heart attack at home with me. Her symptoms mimicked a Flu with some anxiety. It wasn't till she collapsed that we knew things were bad. For months and years afterwards I felt such guilt not knowing she was legit having a heart attack 😔She did survive and going forward even if she had the slightest symptoms of anything, I called 911 lol, I legit had PTSD. It very traumatic and the guilt I felt for not knowing what was really wrong with her lasted a very long time. Gus💜You did the best you could with the situation you were handling at that moment AND you are better for it in the end. Woody I hope your feeling much better and I'm great full you had such great dive partners who had your back💜
I'm sure you did what you could. The symptoms for heart attacks in women are so strange and different from men that they're hard to identify. I'm so glad your mom is ok.
@@LadyGeckoFoot Thank you💜Yes it was nothing like what you'd think it would be. What saved her life was the fact that she naturally has very low blood pressure. She definitely was given a second chance that's for sure.
Woody , I also got bent and seriously I did not know what was going on. I believe it was DCS. It started with lethargy ! I was pretty tired. After the first night I started experiencing shortness of breath and then elbows , shoulders and knees aching ! It was hard to sleep in my bed ! The next thing I experienced was a spasm in my left chest area. I thought it was a Heart Attack. I went to the Hospital and did the stress test even. It has been 8 months since it happened. I tell this because I never had a clue what was going on. I thought DCS was the issue but everything look about the same ! It was not a denial thing , I just didn’t know.. looking back yeah I now know. This is a great conversation you three are having ! Because I believe many have had this happen to them and they didn’t understand what was going on. You going over the GF factor on the Shearwater is an absolutely massive help !
i just had my first experience with a substantial DCS hit on a trip very recently. it was sort of the same thing. the guy was in complete denial, to the point where he almost convinced me out of getting him treatment. that being said, he could not walk nor support his own weight should have been obvious. he thought maybe his sugar was low or needed to eat something among many other things. its tough when you are immersed in the situation and this dive should have been in recreational limits. in hindsight, of course you can judge what you should have done different but in the moment, there is a lot happening in a very short time frame. This whole incident, also occurred over several hours. We finally convinced him to go to the chamber and thank God there was one on the island. after a week of treatments, he was finally released to travel home. great episode guys.. these lessons are important, the situation mentioned above was a huge learning experience to me. This episode is so helpful.
See? That’s a huge difference when the “victim” is telling you “I don’t need to go to the hospital” but they can’t walk, vs. when they look and behave normal. Huge difference!
@@DIVETALKI think this is an American thing vs a European thing. As a European I'd always be safe rather than sorry.
In England we also get taught to check as you can't tell what's going on inside and you can fake recover from internal injuries. This is pretty well known I'd say. Not about the bends but things like punches, car accidents, falls, strokes, heart attacks, knifing etc so I would assume this was the same for the bends as for everything else
@@DIVETALKpeople will always sit in the back of my ambulance and blame their chest pain on some tacos they ate a week ago rather than the heart attack my monitor says they're having.
Gareth always manages to make you think. Very interesting discussion.
I took his webinar course a few years back and it really changed the way I think about risk, how we communicate in our team, do debriefs, etc.
The human factor videos should be a requirement for all advanced divers. I really places how preconceptions and bias can so fundamentally affect how you make decisions. Highly recommended
I listen to under pressure on audio book, i wish there was more similar content available
I'm reading under pressure currently. It's definitely thought provoking. Its helping me to approach my own mistakes while learning to become a safer diver.
I was glad to hear Woody say it's OK for them to learn a lesson from this. It's important to be able to recognize that even if 99 % of the criticism directed at you is unjustified there is still that 1% that needs to taken on board.
It's really great what dive talk already did for the sport, and at the same time it's so entertaining, thank you for that!
First responder here, its really normal for people to think they dont need goto the hospital. Even when they're having a heart attack, even after they've been in a car accident. Lots of very human reasons they dont want to go. Also conditions rarely present as textbook cases and there is always a degree of uncertainty.
My SO used to be an EMT and part of his training was apparently basically "if you know someone isn't doing well but they're refusing transportation, just stick around and wait for them to lose consciousness" because it's so common for people to not want to go when they really really need to. (I don't think they meant actually sit there and watch them go downhill so much as "don't go too far because you're probably gonna be called right back again." When you're unconscious consent is assumed.)
Gus I would like a dive buddy and a friend like you. You treated Woody wonderfully! You were there for him when he needed him. Then you learned from your experience. I watch both you and Woody so I can learn. I like your styles. ❤
Your personalities are what entertains me but your commentary is what educates me. I've been watching for a few years now and i have tons more knowledge about diving than i previously had but it also taught me to be aware of when i think i know something do i actually know it or is my ego telling me i know the correct way. I don't dive but i use those lessons in daily life too.
WOW! An amazing discussion. Gareth is the GOAT for analizing cause and effect. Honest talk about what was going through your heads at the time and how it affected your thinking. Excellent.
Any chance Gareth is speaking in Bonaire at the Meet-up?
Woody, brother, I agree completely on the Texas Toast. Can't miss out on Texas Toast. 😊
God bless you guys, can't wait to see you again in Bonaire.
I am going to say that it’s a hard stop that if a person needs O2, or goes on O2, even if only because of a “maybe, better to be safe” then the decision to go in for further evaluation has been made. Full stop.
100%
@@skydiverninetysix seems like an easy to understand threshold for sure
Sure, but at that time Woody wasnt reporting symptoms anymore. Even later when he was showing symptoms again and actually went to the hospital the Doctors still weren't certain it was DCS. The docs probably would have admitted him for observation if he had presented to the hospital sooner, but would he have had chamber treatment at that time, or significantly sooner than when he actually did?
I haven't been bent, but I've driven myself to the hospital after an adverse medication reaction. I talked myself out of going for 30 minutes, but I finally committed to going after asking myself, "What's the worst thing that is going to happen if I go? They tell me that I'm fine?"
It turned out that my blood pressure was severely elevated (for me). Thankfully, my heart was fine, but it gave me so much relief to know that I wasn't having a heart attack.
There’s a video on Smarter Everyday, where Destin goes to NASAs training pool and dives to watch them work. Would be so awesome to watch you guys react.
Great video guys. Loved hearing from Gareth. Human factors play a huge part in patient safety in healthcare, the area I work in. It’s important to be able to be asked questions about what your thinking was and why you decided that course of action. It’s harder to answer openly and honestly when the consequences of what you’re talking about are already established rather than a hypothetical situation, but it’s an incredibly important conversation to have. Very interesting! Thanks.
Love the expert's intelligence and analysis, specifically with regards to changing memories. Every time you touch a memory you change it.
Also love that he reigned you guys in on generalizations, this was one experience, it can be different for others.
Then, when I heard Woody discuss how he felt, that's how I often feel, I have low bp, sugar and iron. Those symptoms can be so many things.
Thanks for update, great conversation like always, no matter why DAN react, matter you influence them changing for the better
I really appreciated his comments around listening to stories. When we were learning to dive we watched so many videos, a lot of them stories about something going wrong during a dive, including some unfortunate deaths. But we watched them to learn. We talked about how we could apply what we were learning to avoid a situation. It made us practice skills over and over. Even now, we jump in with all our "tech" gear on a Florida dive boat and we have a plan for which skills we are going to practice on that dive. In the event of an emergency, we want the skills to be muscle memory, even though we don't dive every week because of where we live.
When I was doing my DM, I had a dive that went really badly (luckily no one got hurt) and I felt so ashamed and stupid afterwards, and heavily blamed myself for messing up.
Other divers that evening noticed I was down (crying behind my wrap around shades, very cool) and it was really difficult but I told them how I messed up.
Everyone at that table was more experienced than me, and every person there went “no wait that’s messed up, you shouldn’t have been doing that, you aren’t qualified to do that, that’s against the rules etc”. I had no idea I’d been in a situation, and given a responsibility I SHOULDNT HAVE HAD. If I’d kept my mouth shut, I would have blamed myself so heavily. Sharing that story with my peers taught me something I didn’t know. I’m a huge fan of sharing stories, sharing screwups!
45:10 - "Success is a terrible teacher, if you get it right at the first time". This is similar to what the chief engineer use to say at one of jobs, "there's nothing more treacherous than a working prototype". We learn from our mistakes. Things are so variable in the real world, and rarely look like what's taught in text books, that we'll miss things. As long as we're not in "the box" (coffin), we are always learning.
"As long as we're not in "the box" (coffin), we are always learning." - I would caveat that, we are always learning if we are reflecting on the activity. Learning can happen 'in the moment' but is much more effective if we reflect 'on the moment', focusing on the context and decision-making leading up to the event rather than saying "I won't do that again" or "I'll be more careful next time".
Thank you guys for sharing your story! I’m glad Woody is doing better!
Hey Woody and Gus I’m a huge fan of your channel. I’m not a diver but I watch all of your videos and when Gus said dive buddy it got me thinking the only way I would go cave diving is if it was with y’all or MrBallen. Really enjoy your channel keep up the good work guys!
I sympathize. I am a physician and cave diver with over 600 cave dives. I took a ride in a chamber about 5 years ago (nearest chamber to Lake City in North Florida was Orlando FYI - chambers mostly do hyperbaric O2 for wounds because those patients can be denied without insurance and they come in during normal business hours. Even the University of Florida where I trained had no chamber accessible to divers) It turns out I was not bent - muscoloskeltal issue. However, I could have been. I had gotten a bit cold on a 4 hour dive with 90 min of deco and had to move fast to pick up gear before the dive site closed afterward, thought maybe I dehydrated despite in water hydration, etc.. Without that dive having been something “more than my usual” dives I would not have been thinking DCS so quickly but frankly something was wrong and it took about an hour for shoulder pain to really make think, OK this is getting worse not better and I need nearest ER. I admit to feeling bad having to tell my buddy the remaining 3 days of our 4 day dive weekend just got torpedoed.
Amazing and professional recap. Thank you for sharing this. All of these observations and lessons are far reaching, even beyond the diving community. Would love to have Brian and Gus recount their perspectives as well. Bless you all for the great videos and hard work while being honest. 😊❤
I was one of the "experts" in the comments that criticized you for the seemingly cavalier oxygen use delaying treatment (I said something along the lines of "if oxygen is helpful, then that means there's something seriously wrong and you shouldn't delay treatment").
So, I'm a diver and a hyperbaric/undersea medicine physician... But I wasn't there, and that's the important part. As your guest so eloquently stated, we are all informed by our perceptions and past experiences as well as the information that we have available to us.
When you listed the other things that you were thinking about when you had your incident, it really supports the appropriateness of why you did what you did. In medicine, we call that a differential diagnosis, and it's important to note as your guest did, that the perception - what we think is going on - changes as the situation evolves.
So now, I can't fault you at all for what you did, and I understand, too, the difficulties of the various parties communicating based on the information they have or had, and their perspective and specialties.
I think that if there are additional lessons to be learned by those watching your video, they are: 1) if you think a condition is one thing, and you do the appropriate thing to treat that condition but you do not have an appropriate response, then you MUST NOT be afraid to reevaluate the possibility of it being something else, or to change your approach to treatment, and 2) when you're approaching an emergency situation, your job is to think about the worst thing it could be, and only THEN find out what it actually is. That way, you don't forget about the possibility of the bad stuff. 3) medicine is hard - especially for conditions for which there aren't any objective laboratory or imaging tests, and there are multiple presentations. So there's no reason to feel like an idiot if you have to get checked out, and it turns out to be something minor. Don't be afraid to get help.
In the end, I think that's what you did, and I'm glad everything worked out okay, and that you are continuing to provide a service to the diving community with discussions like this.
Stay safe, and happy diving!
I like how everything turn out for the best and the fact that you shared this story showing that even someone who discussed and commented all those mishaps and accidents found themself in the similar situation and turn it to great learning experience, great video and open up some questions. Keep up the good work, and dive safe!
I really appreciate how open they are about everything that happened and about their own possible mistakes too, such great learning experience these videos for any diver.
Let alone the consequential effects of DCS, contributing physiological problems such as hypoxia, hyperoxia, hypo- or hyperthermia, hypo- or hypercapnia can not only have overlapping symptoms but can, as Gareth says, also make the victim the least able to diagnose their condition. That for me means that I need to have access to an organisation and expertise that can do the heavy lifting for me if I have a problem because I may not be able to self-diagnose or handle the basic admin of my treatment.
Crazy timing of this, a local Dive Instructor sent me info on the HFID 2 day course coming to my local area yesterday and today get alert for this video. Feels like I got to sign up.
Ive got a few thousand dives in mainly from working full time as a dm, in the community we used to do some pretty bad dives regarding profiles quite often. But we were very cautious when it came to getting any sort of symptoms. Meaning we would be straight off to the deco chambers and dive physicians just in case. There were two fatalities I know of personally, but they were both freediving at the time. Bottom line for me is regardless, if you have any sort of symptoms out of the ordinary dont mess about, get yourself straight to a chamber asap. Better safe than sorry.
I am NOT a diver, nor will I ever be due to disability issues, but I love your videos, and I HAVE LEARNED a lot. It has made me very Interested in what you do, and I'd support even my son if he wanted to do it. I would now, make absolutely sure he was educated well and CORRECTLY, because of what I've learned watching dive talk!
Great video. The added value you provide to the diving community is amazing !
Very good discussion. I must say, I was one of the folks very critical of the situation in Abaco and moreover, disappointed with what seemed like a lack of accountability on the behalf of the divers themselves. To me, it seemed like the focus was on the shortcomings and shortfalls of DAN, which has, in my opinion been a highly credible organization. I immediately thought that Gareth should be involved in the review (and emailed him that opinion as well).
This video was great though, and I applaud Woody & Gus for their openness and willingness to be self-critical in the reflection of the situation, which is hard to do. I do think Gareth was the conduit for this and I learned lots from the discussion. Perhaps education and entertainment is possible.
Thank you again for providing this discussion. My hope is that it helps get more focus on Human Factors and Gareth’s work. He is doing the most important work in the scuba diving industry.
So excited i had time to actually watch this in full Will never dive but I love you guys and all you represent.
Gareth’s course is amazing
Man, I love this discussion. Sounds like it’s time for a new rule to be added: never listen to the casualty. It’d be awesome to see you guys leverage your experiences and connections to create a short screening tool that can be used in the field and easily incorporated into practice. I think it should be a primary point before any dive that should there be any signs or symptoms of a medical event-no matter how small-a diver will be taken to the hospital out of precaution, period. Leave no room for doubt or discretion.
And if you all need a grant or medical writer, hit me up :D
As a newer open water diver, I think this content will not only help me be a better dive buddy. But also help other new divers know what to watch for with their dive buddies.
This open conversation is very inspirational in my mind you can take the thought process and apply it to many other facets of life the idea of rationalization of the actions woth separation from the individual makes the help or input on said topic alot less like a personal attack to a thought conversation on why these actions happen and what situation may have created the particular situation gus and woody you guys truly help me learn how to understand situation in life better and more intellectually your like the two uncles that are very enthusiastic about alot of diving knowledge but actually teach life lessons thay apply to alot of real life issues
I've been a fan of the channel for a couple years now and you guys have opened my mind and blown my mind so much! I really want to try scuba diving one day, and although there are a lot of reasons that right now, I'm kind of scared of trying, I still know I definitely want to try because I now know so much more about diving and I know enough to know that I don't know enough and that I have a lot to learn before trying. But I have started practicing in a local lake with my family. We get swim goggles and snorkels and grab rocks off the bottom. And I had such an amazing experience once, just last year. I was swimming through probably fifty yards of waist deep water full of plants and algae when suddenly it opened up to about just over my head depth, and the floor was smooth and pebbly, and the sun was shining right through the water, and I was surrounded by hundreds of three to four inch long fish, a few different schools of different species. It was absolutely incredible and breath taking! And that was just in a small man made reservoir in rural Montana. I can't imagine a place like the Bahamas or coral reef or something like that.
You guys are incredibly entertaining and informative. I would know nothing about all the top tier and excellent professional divers or the beautiful caves you guys visit. Please never lose hope in what you're doing. I always love to see you guys have uploaded and I always watch whatever you upload! ❤
Let’s go!!! I didn’t see this one pop up? Also a year membership today! Lol🎉
My thought when I watched the first video and remains the same now is that if I had a dive buddy on O2 for any reason once we are out of the water our next stop is the hospital. Why take a chance.
People can smile and learn at the same time... Not a diver but I'm definitely considering, after getting hooked on your videos. DEFINITELY learn with each vid. Thanks for being a great pair faces for the diving community. Stay safe.
Thank you for the Longform content guys!
I used to have a lot of support for Woody. But well-done? That’s not something I can support.
On a more serious note, thanks for the update video! It’s always easier to see things in hindsight.
Dont worry Woody. Im part of the well done steak crew too. The flak never ends but its our taste! Great video as always guys!
I'm not a diver, but in aviation, they say rules and procedures were written in blood. You have to learn from problems, deaths, etc, or you'll never get better and safer.
I looked at DAN as well and definitely got the one would get picked up by a chopper. Granted I we got our certifications in Hawaii, so maybe that is the case there, but that wasn't spelled out, it sounded they make it happen wherever you are. I live near some ocean diving spots and have heard stories about dive boats leaving people. When we went diving in Mexico they dumped us off in a jellyfish swarm. You really have to assume the worst can happen no one is gonna worker harder to keep you safe and alive than you are willing to.
I dived in a jellyfish swarm once, and everyone else much more experienced than me was like “no it’s fine, you just need to break through the top layer and then it’s all fine”. Not a single person thought about when we had to come back up, face first into a layer of jellyfish.
We ended up having to blast a hole in them using an octi so we could get up, because a few of us were starting to freak out and didn’t want to surface.
I always find it interesting how its way more common in America to not have this first instinct of using medical help for minor things. Im not putting blame on any of you guys. I would however say as an European me and all of the people around me would immediatly bring each other to hospital or atleast a doctor for first assessments when something happens that we seem as overly abnormal. And i feel like its a social conditioning with having medical bills, insurance troubles and what not in your subconcious mind all the time growing up.
Too true
The main issue in the US is our healthcare system makes it so much more expensive. It really has nothing to do with social conditioning for me at least. I served in the US military and have to pay out pocket to take care of all of my “non-military related injuries”. This country won’t take care of its veterans let alone its people. Most of the European countries have an amazing healthcare system. I wish the US would follow suit to be honest.
It's social conditioning, all right, but it has nothing to do with the cost of medical care. The US dive industry is saturated with pretentious, egotistical dickheads. They also don't have the defamation laws many other countries do. People are terrified to go to the chamber because they're going to be destroyed on Internet forums by people whose only way of elevating themselves is to tear others down. People would rather die than suffer the embarrassment.
As for the cost of care, no one who's dying is thinking about what it's going to cost. BTDT. In the USA, you can't even be asked about ability to pay until an emergency is resolved.
Woodie wasn't in the USA, which is why the hospital wanted money up front.
I have a serious question. I don’t have an Amex card with 50K of available credit to cover the cost of a chamber ride. Had I been in Woody’s shoes, I likely would be dead or seriously injured. Should I trust DAN any more? If the answer is yes, why should I trust them? Other than the limited info that DAN is “working on their procedures” as a result of Woody’s incident it’s been radio silence from them. This doesn’t instill me with confidence in DAN. Should we be looking for other companies that offer dive insurance? I suspect that there aren’t many other options available for us. I am still waiting for answers from them.
I think that's the challenge in this situation, let's set aside your confidence in DAN...let's say DAN is no longer an option...now what? Have nothing? I heard there is Dive Assure but they have a ton of limitations, and I assume Dive Assure and any other companies like them follow the same recipe, partner up with companies around the world to provide these services, so if you get bent in Jamaica or Mexico or wherever they can take care of you; will having one vs the other provide different results? I bet they would use the same contractors.
So in this case I think you have to stick with DAN because there are no better options out there, the only thing we can hope for is that DAN (and other companies like them) learns from these incidents and make changes that benefit all divers out there. Tweak their procedures, ramp up their capabilities (contractor database), etc.. And for all the people that say "They are only making changes because they've been 'exposed on Dive Talk'" I say GREAT! We're glad to influence change in our industry that benefits divers globally. Whether those changes happened because DAN wants to get better or because they're being "forced" to get better, who cares? they are still changing for the better and that's all I care about.
@@DIVETALK I’m right there with you guys! It doesn’t matter why or how the needed changes initiated, only that they are…. While it sucks that this happened to anyone, I’m thankful that it happened in a set of circumstances that the unfortunate diver had the means to react in a way that minimized the potential bad impact. I’m so thankful that we had the outcome that we had. You have to take care of yourself, there aren’t many people around that can communicate directly with fish!!! 😂
@@DIVETALK I feel the problem in this case is the country. There are countries with expensive healthcare. But it's usually illegal to deny proper emergency care, when the patient can't cough up the payment upfront or isn't sufficiently covered. There are countries with cheap healthcare where this could definitely happen.
It seems the Bahamas is both very expensive and doesn't have anything in the way of insuring proper medical emergency treament for patients. Which is kinda messed up. And a little suprising given it's tourism based economy.
I’m just saying… I have to order transcripts for lectures and webinars for work, and the turnaround is incredibly quick, no matter which service we use. Even more so with AI tools available now. Happy to hear they’re being responsive, but those transcripts should already be done.
I had a PFO closure at age 14 (started diving at 11/12, 22 now) I found out I had one because my mum got bent and discovered she had one. I was lucky to not get the bends prior or since, been sidemount for a long time finally looking at doing rebreather this year hopefully. Great video and very informative as always
I’m a physician and talked myself out of being treated on Catalina Island when I woke up with joint pains after diving several cold water air dives to 130 feet. I now suffer from avascular necrosis in multiple joints from that terrible decision.
I thought I hurt my knees from getting thrown up against the steps with the rough water or just over exercising since we had hauled gear up and down steep hills.
When I did finally get some hypobaric treatment almost a week later much of the damage was done and the hospital in Phoenix didn’t give me nearly a deep enough or frequent enough treatments,although the pain was relieved while I was diving.
Btw,I also hobbled back to the house 1/4 mile from the back pasture,took a shower,waited until the ER times were less and than drove myself 40 miles to the ER with a badly broken fractured right tibial plateau so I’m not the best person to decide my own treatment.
I work very heavy construction, theres many near miss situations that are not reported and best believe someone else will do the same thing but not be so lucky. Acknowledging is the first step to resolving the problem.
Totally different matter, but Woody’s case reminded me of my own personal health scare a few years ago. I had a fever, and was experiencing muscle pain. I thought it was the flu, and my physician thought it was some other infection and told me to come in the next day for a blood test. At midnight, I started running a really high fever, and my family took me to the ER. The doctors told me I had a fever of 40 degrees Celsius (104 in Fahrenheit), and that the blood test they ran showed I had an acute liver disorder and I had to be admitted because they had no idea what kind of liver disorder I was experiencing. The doctors tested my blood for days until they found out it was Hepatitis A. It turned out I was in the early stages of it. I made full recovery, but I don’t blame my physician for not spotting it on that visit. My fever was not that high then, and my symptoms only started worsening that night. My face and eyes started to turn yellow after I was admitted, so I wasn’t even showing the symptoms. The lesson I learned was to take all the vaccines that are available, even if they are expensive. I’m so glad that Woody was fine after he got treatment, but I don’t want to blame anyone in this situation because things always seem clear in hindsight.
Fantastic discussion, incredibly insightful. Good job 👍
Is “expectation bias” a part of why we don’t do a good job of recognizing a bad situation? I always wonder about how to separate normal positive learning from expectation bias.
I have been in similar medical type situations with friends. It’s nothing to be ashamed of but Gus was in a state of panic out of concern. The way to combat panic is experience. Gus now has more experience. Gus did nothing wrong here. Making a mistake and learning and then telling everyone is something to be very proud of. Woody is in the clear here too because he brought two very good friends capable of getting him the help he needed. That’s is the protocol.
I'm not a diver, I'm merely a crisis manager by profession for coming up to 15 years and I can tell you this much. This video combined with the initial video will safe lives. Thank you for sharing.
You simply don‘t know what inside your body goes own, maybe your body had somekind of immune reaction lowering your normal capabilities! We simply are a far cry away from understanding our own system! It happened, despite being hit by total surprise you guys did the right thing, plenty of reason to be very happy! That said of coarse the educational part and your effort to learn that we always need to expect the unexpected is again why I enjoy watching you guys so much!
19:50 thank you. 100% you force them. No choice in it for the "victim" as they might be affected by the injury, might feel guilty etc, any risk of the bends it's hospital time.
However is this a European thing where we don't have to balance cost vs safety?
Like we mentioned on the video, it doesn’t matter where you are from since this happened in the Bahamas.
@@DIVETALK I meant more cultural lessons we learn which affect the way we interact with the world.
BTW love your videos. I'll never be able to do the kind of diving you do but I love hearing about it from you and have done my first dive since watching you
I think the fact that America doesn't have free health care and health care can be quite costly in the US must play a part to some degree. Europeans may be apprehensive as well but probably for different reasons that aren't cost I'd imagine.
I just need to comment, because your talk really struck me. Three weeks ago me and my wife lost our child. We went to hospital when she was pregnant in week 24 with horrible back and chestpain, but she really didn't want to stay in hospital, because she had some important tasks to do the next few days. The staff said it's up to her. I had the strong feeling of NO, she has to stay no matter how much she objects. So we stayed leading to a week of hospital, leading to constant supervision of baby and mother, to an emergency cesarian with a baby that had a chance to life, but sadly died after birth.
BUT, if we wouldn't have stayed in hospital at that moment, the baby would have died in the belly for certain and it would have also been life threatening for my wife. I read stories of women falling into a coma and liver failure, because they only got pain medication instead of staying in hospital.
So: Yes, when you are the victim ALWAYS tell others something is odd. And when you are the one being told: You're the one that needs to protect them and take the safe route, because they are not in the position to judge!
Halfway through now, and wanted to point a couple things out, Woody may not recall as well now, but I remember him dwelling some on how he didn’t want to impact the night or the whole trip for the others. Gus is really trying to justify his mindset, but it comes off sounding silly, because like their guest points out it’s not ridiculous to implore someone to go against their will. I feel bad the guys feel they have to justify their actions and reactions, but people are so toxic for no reason. I’m hoping their responses are overreactions in some cases, some of these questions sound like legitimate ones, how did you not know is an important topic of discussion, because the show is dive talk and the hosts are typically our experts.hope the guest gets to speak at some point because the proper mindset for these types of incidents should be shared, even if Woody and Gus did it wrong this time.
By watching this I got a feeling that "it can't happen to me because I'm now aware of all of this". But when I really think about it, this doesn't make any sense and I know I just have to be as aware as possible and take no chance. Weird feeling. Anyway, great video thanks for sharing!
Heyy. Im sorry if i missed it but was it ever explained what was the CAUSE of Woody getting bent ? Sounds to me like you did the dive by the book.
I just want to say that what you do is educational, not just on the dive aspect. You going through this helps explain to normal everyday people what it feels and looks like to be bent. You helped find flaws in the system that could also save lives in the future. Personally, I won't dive due to cold sensitivity and health, but being able to see what you see (thanks to the videos) is another world entirely. Thank you for sharing that with us.
Thank you for this-no ego involved here. I think that if Woody can get Bent, anyone can, and I think that is a very important message.
I think a lot of the “denial” in these situations is less about ego and more about not wanting to “ruin” a nice vacation and it happens in all sorts of situations, not just diving.
I would of been dead, I'm autistic and have adhd I panic off the slightest bit of stress. The bottom of the sea is not the place for me 😆 you guy's are legends just for having the guts to go down there in the first place.
“Texas toast” I’m dead 😂
Guys, videos are getting better and better!
So, had you immediately taken him to the nearby hospital while he was in the ‘I’m ok’ phase of the wave, what would they have done beyond basic vitals checks that might have detected something? Or would the vitals check have found something?
If they cleared him to go home, your resolve to not pursue it further could have lasted much longer.
if my buddy needs o2 on the surface at all im taking them to the hospital
Yup standard procedure in my o2 classes no exception
@@scooterdog5684 that's what I'm saying procedures are put in place for a rwason
Denial isn't about ego, it's a difficulty coming to terms with the severity of a situation. Your mind has to process, is this really happening, and is this really happening to me. To do this your mind has to go through the process of dismissing alternative conclusions. So when Woody was feeling better, your mind would have gone oh problem solved, here is an alternative conclusion, I was simply overreacting. But then when the symptoms started again your brain had to reasses oh shit, I was wrong again. So Ur constantly second guessing urself and hence the process of accepting the severity of the problem and that its happening to you gets further and further delayed... until it becomes very clear, and unfortunately the point where it becomes clear is the point where it's becoming too late. So Denial isn't about ego, it's about assessing the risk of taking action over something that might or might not be minor vs this could be serious. In these situations the people going through it are not to blame, our mind will always start with the least risk scenario if the severity isn't obvious. However medical professionals should know better. Once the chamber was recommended, it should have been done.
Great discussion!! I can’t comment on all the topic I have in my mind.. not enough time or space 😁.. (yes, for those who doesn’t know I’m a physician with only 29 years taking care of critical patients 😌😏)
Great vid guys. This channel really is a valuable resource.
Extra well done team✊🏽 stay strong
Galapagos doesn’t have any evacuation. We had to take our entire live aboard back from the furthest island,a 24 hour ride,for a guy who got bent. This is a remote place,especially the far islands.
This was a really really productive video. I respect so much you guys don’t hide stuff and take accountability. I mean I don’t dive but I feel like if I were in Gus’s shoes I would have a hard time just beeping like on your opinion dosent matter we are bringing you to get help. Also I think back to when you guys say you have friends that aren’t rich and they cave dive and it made me wonder like how much is Dan? Is ot even affordable to people that probably don’t have a bunch of money?
Very affordable. I believe their most expensive plan (the one we have) is like $15 a month.
Thx for the update about Abaco. luckily everybody is in good health again.
and indeed thx for some answering the questions a lot of divers where thinking about.
This is stuff you don't want to become experts in. (or to much experienced in)
Did you know there's a difference between DAN USA/Asia-Pacific and DAN Europe.
Turns out that the problems you had with the payments would not have been happend if you had the insurance from DAN Europe.
The curious thing is would DAN have responded in all of this after action work had it not been Woody from "Dive Talk"? I guess we will never know.
Like we said in the video, it doesn’t matter as long as it changes for the better.
@@DIVETALK But it does matter though because to me it really speaks of a deeper problem in the culture at DAN. If the only reason they are treating you right and enacting change is because it's Woody, there has to be no shortage of people who ended up in a similar situation and we're left hanging by DAN.
I think I can actually add something to this conversation about denial, which surprises me a little bit. With Woody's case of the bends being neurological, there's some interesting parallels to my experience with a traumatic brain injury I had four years ago that I want to touch upon for people who maybe haven't experienced a neurological event or injury. For context, I had recent first aid training, and had spent many a day chatting with a friend who was a firefighter-paramedic in Canada and learning more advanced first aid than was taught on my course. I had more knowledge about neurological symptoms than most first aiders on my course did.
If you've never experienced a neurological event, it can be difficult to comprehend that during such an experience your brain is not as capable as it would normally be, but you might be absolutely convinced it's working normally at the time, because your brain, at that moment in time, isn't necessarily capable of recognizing that you are currently impaired. In my case, my neurological impairment was a result of falling off a horse. When I hit the ground with the back of my head, I was out for a moment, I don't know how long, and I remember being unable to coordinate my limbs for a few moments after that. My sister, who witnessed my injury, doesn't remember that being a thing - but that's because she wasn't in my brain at that time and able to understand what I was trying to do - what I remember is feeling significant stress over the fact my arms and legs were jerking around and not moving where I wanted them to go. After I'd managed to sit up, with some assistance, and get more of my consciousness back, I did decide I didn't want to go to the hospital, thinking I just had a regular concussion, and would recover over the next week to month. Again, at that moment in time, my brain was impaired, so was I mentally fit to make that judgement? Probably not.
Like Woody described with his case of the bends, initially, I was really bad, then I started feeling better, then I declined again several hours later - I lost coordination again, and started feeling really tired. I had enough cognitive ability to recognize I needed to stay with my sister and my parents instead of going home, because I had serious concerns about what would happen if my condition worsened if I was home alone with no one to monitor me. Throughout that initial 24-48 hours, one thing was consistent - my speech was slurred, and my balance was off - I could be sitting in a chair, and my head would tilt to the side, because I felt like I wasn't upright, or I might try to walk, and be staggering like I was drunk. Initially, I didn't even want to walk, I crawled everywhere.
In the end, I did go to a doctor, and from there, to the hospital, some time later. I don't remember how long - neurological symptoms again, some of that time is just gone for me. I only know they assessed me as having suffered a mild to moderate coup-contrecoup injury to the cerebellum and frontal cortex.
It's easy to say "you should have known", but I think it's really easy to ignore that the neurological symptoms themselves make it very difficult to accurately assess yourself, even if you do have enough knowledge to make an informed guess as to what's going on. Altered states of consciousness are a significant deficit in accurate self-assessment.
Meanwhile, your friends, family, bystanders, they don't know what's going through your mind, so they may miss symptoms simply because they're unaware you're struggling with something specific, and you're at the time unable to describe exactly what it is you're struggling with. Again, it's easy to say Gus should have known, but he's not Woody, so he didn't know much about Woody's mental and physical state beyond what he could see as an outside observer, and what Woody was able to tell him while Woody himself was impaired.
Warning, long post: I watched the video and wondered if anyone examined the cultural element in how Woody's illness was handled. I'm an American who has spent long periods of time outside the US and my husband is European, but an enthusiastic, libertarian American convert. We are older than Gus, but younger than Woody. We completely understand why these guys handled things this way. When Gareth asked Gus in this segment why he didn't just bring Woody to the hospital against his wishes, we looked at eachother and "got it". We prob. would have also respected Woody's decision. My husband laughed at the time where I fought with medics who tried to take me in one time (not dive related) I actually felt violated and would not want another person to feel this way. This would affect how I handled an incident like this. We wonder if the people who are putting down these divers are from other countries, younger generation and/ or just don't have the same pov that many of us have here in the states, where our civil liberties and personal freedom are so important and ingrained. We definitely all learned from this, and will most likely drag people to hospital now, just in case. However, this "sport" on some boards to retroactively blame Woody's friends for "not knowing" or being negligent in not forcing him to go to the hospital is ridiculous.
Idk if you’re going to see this @divetalk , but as someone who studied neuropsychology for many years, here’s my take on this:
I totally understand what happened. It’s not arrogance or stupidity.
Many people that are severely injured, sick, or in some other form of peril don’t realize it at first. They also express confusion if they’ve followed all the rules, because in theory, it shouldn’t happen.
Examples:
“I didn’t realize I was shot in the leg until much later.”
“How did I get cancer??? I live a super healthy lifestyle, have nutritious meals, exercise regularly, and do my best to get enough sleep!”
“I was so lost in the amazing view of the mountain, I did not realize that the soil beneath my feet was so loose.”
There are also plenty of people in severe circumstances that try to “walk it off” because they don’t feel that bad and don’t want to ruin an event for others.
I’m so glad you shared this experience with us, but please don’t feel so stupid/guilty. This happens ALL THE TIME.
And like you said: “It’s totally okay that we’ve all learned our lesson.”
You’re humble, insightful, and most importantly, human. Humans make mistakes, and taking it in stride is an excellent mark in character.
Do you guys use a separate CO analyzer for checking for bad gas?
I have been bent a number of times. 1 open water course bad headache on the boat. Gone when I reached shore. 2 no symptoms but poor judgement driving home. Totally clear mind. 3 night dive from shore. Totally exhausted dragged my carcass on to the beach. I was done. (Had no idea what was going on) Just now realized I must have been bent. 4 multiple times crawling on my belly drooling and nausea.
All but one was a 2 dive day. None were deco and I followed my computer religiously. I have 54 cave dives some deco and never bent. I live in DR and I doubt they have a chamber.
yes the risk assessment we speak about a lot but real life we search the chamber ... and the specialist to operate !
FINALLY another well done steak enjoyer. Meat is just a conveyor for the sauce to get to my mouth.
What a shame, you’re missing out on the whole joy of the actual STEAK. I am so sad for folks like you and woody 😔 Gus get it 😉
I was trying to figure out, if you knew woody was bent, how hard would it have been to go back down to level his pressure? Or would he have drown, because some people say as soon as they're under pressure they go back to normal.
My basic understanding is, that you don't go down, because you don't know exactly to what depth and for how long... and maybe most importantly, during the time down you would amass even more (a lot more) decompression time. So you would need even more time to go slowly up and off-gas. Plus you're under water, so if anything else happens, you're in trouble. You would need the air to do it, which you didn't plan for and probably don't even have on the boat. Your buddies would also amass more decompression time... so ultimately it creates more risks/problems than benefits.
going to the ER room for every thing that makes you concerned is a bad idea in America - the penalty financially is too large you can't just do that. I would be bankrupt if I followed the safety standard of advice that everyone always says for all industries and all situations.
I mentioned this elsewhere but I’m curious if general search and rescue insurance would work at all - in a way, once you’re topside it’s kinda like any other backcountry rescue. And by that nature, IMMEDIATE air transport is pretty standard.
I’m also curious, what the hell else would DAN do other than transport people to the nearest level 1 trauma center? Sounds like there’s not a whole lot of “rescuing” in diving… what the hell else do they do??