Actually we recommend NOT using stabilization on our models, especially on maiden flights. Nothing wrong with stabilization, but if not working properly it causes a lot of problems. For the Minuette the rudder is far more powerful for turning that the ailerons. The ailerons are somewhat effective, but only to help level out the model a bit quicker and smoother than rudder alone - and they can also help eliminate some of the rudder "waggle" that happens with overuse of the rudder. A rudder/aileron mix could be programmed in, but simply learning to manually use both controls in sync is a good technique to have, regardless of the model.
I always coordinate turns with rudder and aileron together (drilled into my brain by my full-scale instructor many years ago). I think you're saying that if just do that I'll be fine. True?
This is what I like about your masterclass and this page. An honest look at the flight and what happened. Made me think again about how I fly and build. Thank you for all you do for this hobby.
After building and flying everything for the past 47 years I do not understand why folks want to over complicate a basic simple model. For me, never have used a stabilized receiver. Maybe you just like to tinker. Wind, no wind it doesn't matter let your eyes and fingers fly the airplane. Folks expect some magic box to make them a better flyer in all weather conditions these days. I hope you figure your issue out and get your plane flying the way you want it too! Beautiful flying site you have too!
I think you are missing a lot of details here. I PERSONALLY do not fly with stabilization. I fly on a FrSky system and own zero stabilization receivers. This is being setup for the DU-BRO giveaway, which could literally go to ANYONE, so it's in my best interest to set it up for success as much as possible. Not to mention Horizon Hobby donating the radio and electronics so It makes sense to try and use the tool set given for the application. It is entirely likely that I've setup something wrong here because Spektrum is not my usual platform and I never setup stabilization. So, that being said, take a step back and maybe a breath or two and try to digest the full context of the situation. Thanks for the comment. I really do appreciate it.
I didn’t see your preflight check, I assume you did one. My question is did you turn safe on and then hold the plane inverted. Next switch to AS3X mode and hold the plane inverted. In AS3X the control surfaces may move momentarily, but go back to normal position. In Safe mode the control surfaces will not rest, until the plane is upright and level. I’m guessing the plane is always in Safe mode.
If you want help - List exact equip used. RX. Servos etc. show close up’s of control surfaces on ground. Get an experienced Spektrum user to look it over. For me I too believe SAFE is engaged. Maybe by default. I had to re-bind to turn SAFE off. There is specific steps with a Spektrum RX to assign which is engaged during binding.
Remember my first flight on a plane with stabilization, a HK Hawker Tempest 800mm. I couldn't get it to switch modes so I flown in beginner mode at first since I figured as experienced pilot I'll be more than fine, and let me say - beginner mode isn't beginner friendly, at all. The plane wasn't listening to sticks, I was lucky to be flying in an open field because otherwise I'd need to climb a tree to get it down, had to make like a 50m radius circle to get it around for landing. 2nd attempt was on "experienced" mode and while it was a lot better I eventually took off the gyro and fly with just bare minimum equipment
Keep the stabilization off until you resolve your aileron control issue. Try setting differential aileron control- more Up aileron instead of down aileron throws. Some wings don’t like down aileron throw which causes more drag than roll.
looks like you are in 'SAFE' mode which limits throws.... In the radio you have to assign a SAFE/AS3X switch for on/off; ' and/or rotary knob to increase/decrease gyro...You also need 100% rates when using SAFE (if not; it'll take a 40 acre field to get it turned around ) 🙂 just a thought...nice plane, have a great week...
SAFE mode has not been setup at all. Limits have not been set. I even verified this in the radio after the fact to double check. I appreciate the comment!
Wow.. So frustrating when a model just won't cooperate. Its awful, it keeps me up at night and I gotta bother all my flying buddies to try and figure it out.. I'm sure you'll sort this one out... You know what you're doing.. Good luck.. Will
Interesting model ! I hope you are able to solve your problems. I don't know how she is built, but if you can still arrange to have a pinch more dihedral - at least rudder will be able to give more ability to bank for turns. Aileron placement is a bit unique, being so far inboard yields less authority. Another thing I wondered about was the wing itself. Does the wing seem to be rigid? If the whole wing is able to flex ( warp - similar to old time wing warping ) then the ailerons might lose authority because of how the structure behaves. All my brain storming may be WAY off base. ? Again - Good luck figuring it out.
For the first flight or two I was 100% sure that the problem was a gyroscopic progression issue related to the spin and right-hand rule torque of the dummy rotary-radial. All full size aircraft with engines of this type had additional control issues. I wonder if the ailerons are supposed to have asymmetrical throws (top of wing vs. bottom) due to the flat-bottom wing?
Maybe a touch of differential but it would'nt entirely null out roll input. I've used differential on many WWI models I've setup and their initial flight is fine and the tail is just a bit sloppy in turns. I've got a few ideas yet to exhaust.
You have a stiffness problem in either your fuselage frame and stringer structure or a stiffness problem in your wing box and aileron structure. Sounds like you're getting twist/flex which is inhibiting your roll.
Did you have stabilisation completely tuned off? Looked like the model was set to angle mode for aileron with very little authority. I would try it with a non as3x receiver.
This is my next step. I want to try it on my own FrSky system and see what's what. knowing that it WILL fly rudder only prepares me for what steps I need to take there.
Nice video. Mr. Its funny about those ailroms. Have a tigermoth did the same, if i put a litle rudder and ailrons it turns on cent 😊 no safe or thigs like that. Nice plane you have there, sure u make it work. Waiting to see a good flight mr
It sure looks like it's in SAFE Self-Leveling envelope. That plane will barrel roll with normal aileron throws. Turn the plane upside down and roll it left & right, if the ailerons auto correct back & forth to right the plane...SAFE is on.
We need a flight stabilization system on that? It Is basically an ugly stick, anyone with any flying skill whatsoever can fly it without a stabilization system.
Actually, yes! Because of how much wing area it has, it can be blown around quite a bit in gusty winds. AS3X will dramatically help keep the model stable despite the wind penetration. This is similar to ultramicro models. No worries, I'll get it figured out.
Actually we recommend not using stabilization on our models, especially on maiden flights. Nothing wrong with stabilization, but if not working proper it causes a lot of problems.
You need more than that, you need a miniture female Choppergirl pilot, and a choppergirl roundels. And my custom soundpack on your transmitter so it talks back to you. Lot of bad RC advice out there by no nothings.. My first quadcopter flight, everyone was like first you need to hover it in level flight in your cramp back yard or in a garage LOS. That was the absolute worst advice. After almost destroying my model several times, I was like you know what, a big open field, I can totally fly this thing FPV easy peasy after doing so 200 hours in the sim, and I was right. Now I've got 3,000+ hours behind me in the sim, and I'd never fly any RC with only 200 hours in the sim. The difference is between a baby who can walk, and a high performance world champion ballet dancer.
Would have been useful to see how much aileron deflection you have. If that's good though, I'm guessing maybe the stabilization is fighting you, even though you claim it was turned off? You could confirm that by holding the model & manually rolling it back-n-forth. Listen to the servos, you should only hear them moving when stabilization is on. If that's not the problem then maybe the servos are stalling? They might be either under sized for the job or you have an issue with the wiring... low amps getting to the servos. Loose or bendy control horn(s) might be another culprit. Push rods bending under load is another thought. Did you program any aileron differential & if so, check that's not working backwards (should be more up aileron than down). That shouldn't necessarily reduce your roll rate though but I'm running out of ideas. I'd check that stabilized receiver though... maybe try flying it using a standard receiver, see what that does. Good luck, lovely model.
No bendy control horns. THey are DU-BRO and the rods are 4-40 threaded rod and short at that. Ball links on both ends so I know it's not slop in my setup. It's not likely that the servos are stalling. These are small control surfaces on a rather slow model, with a Hitec servo that has more torque than the average standard size servo. I did confirm that flight mode 1 is DEAD on AS3X. I blipped the throttle and on the other two modes I get servo action when the knob is turned up but nothing on flight mode 1. It's all still a mystery. Really the only other thing that may be a contributor is torsional rigidity of the wing. It seems par for the course but still TBD.
@@Mikeylikesit1968 I would agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong. From one of the product blurbs from the AR630, for example: "The Spektrum AR630 AS3X Telemetry Receiver is a DSM2 and DSMX capable receiver. Its compact footprint is designed to fit in a wide range of aircraft models including park flyers and larger sport models. The AR630 is a full range 6-channel receiver with built in AS3X and SAFE stabilization, which counters the effects of wind, turbulence and torque using 3-axis MEMS gyro and exclusive flight control software tuned by expert RC pilots."
Get rid of SAFE. I don't understand the need to use it. You just spent a bunch of time building something and you turn on SAFE on the maiden. Get some time on the airplane before tinkering with flight stabilization. I've played with flight stabilization with the Aura 5 Lite. I admit it's neat to play with but to rely on it for everyday flying, I don't get the appeal. Learn to fly rudder.
I think you are missing context here, much like another commenter. I regularly fly on a FrSky systemand own zero receivers with stabilization. This is not my thing. I'm off platform and setting up the model for a giveaway sponsored by DU-BRO using a radio and electronics donated by Horizon Hobby. This model could go to literally anyone and I'm just trying to set it up the best I can for that winner to have success. I do think that it's entirely possible that I've setup something wrong here so I'll not count out the stabilization just yet but I will note that SAFE has NOT been setup. AS3X stabilization, but SAFE is a different tech that has no bearing here. No travel limits or heading holds. I'm a scientist by profession so I know to only change one variable at a time. Still, I've nver been a big fan of stabilization but ultimately I will do what's est for this particular model, including shipping it with no stabilization.
such a dum defective, floaty, ANTIQUE design.! bleh all those guys make a LOT of drag. this is an example of a full-size design feature that should NOT be scaled down. 0219 ailerons are small. and, all of the area of the wing trailing edge that is stationary DAMPS responses to aileron inputs. when the model is level, the main landing gear Should be located directly below the wing leading edge. this is an example of FLAWED original design.! imo, it is the opposite of smart to replicate original Mistakes in a design, for the sake of scale accuracy. 0300 because...... wut 0310 if i had a prop strike..... wut 0316 make sure..... wut
Actually we recommend NOT using stabilization on our models, especially on maiden flights. Nothing wrong with stabilization, but if not working properly it causes a lot of problems. For the Minuette the rudder is far more powerful for turning that the ailerons. The ailerons are somewhat effective, but only to help level out the model a bit quicker and smoother than rudder alone - and they can also help eliminate some of the rudder "waggle" that happens with overuse of the rudder. A rudder/aileron mix could be programmed in, but simply learning to manually use both controls in sync is a good technique to have, regardless of the model.
I always coordinate turns with rudder and aileron together (drilled into my brain by my full-scale instructor many years ago). I think you're saying that if just do that I'll be fine. True?
@@gbisaga 👍
This is what I like about your masterclass and this page. An honest look at the flight and what happened. Made me think again about how I fly and build. Thank you for all you do for this hobby.
Man, what a kind comment. Thank YOU. The world needs more decent humans like you.
After building and flying everything for the past 47 years I do not understand why folks want to over complicate a basic simple model. For me, never have used a stabilized receiver. Maybe you just like to tinker. Wind, no wind it doesn't matter let your eyes and fingers fly the airplane. Folks expect some magic box to make them a better flyer in all weather conditions these days. I hope you figure your issue out and get your plane flying the way you want it too! Beautiful flying site you have too!
I think you are missing a lot of details here. I PERSONALLY do not fly with stabilization. I fly on a FrSky system and own zero stabilization receivers. This is being setup for the DU-BRO giveaway, which could literally go to ANYONE, so it's in my best interest to set it up for success as much as possible. Not to mention Horizon Hobby donating the radio and electronics so It makes sense to try and use the tool set given for the application. It is entirely likely that I've setup something wrong here because Spektrum is not my usual platform and I never setup stabilization. So, that being said, take a step back and maybe a breath or two and try to digest the full context of the situation. Thanks for the comment. I really do appreciate it.
I would suspect receiver issues…I wonder how it would fly with a basic four channel receiver with no AS3X?
Nice looking (and interesting) model. Hope you get it quickly sorted out and bring her back on the channel for us to see.
I didn’t see your preflight check, I assume you did one. My question is did you turn safe on and then hold the plane inverted. Next switch to AS3X mode and hold the plane inverted. In AS3X the control surfaces may move momentarily, but go back to normal position. In Safe mode the control surfaces will not rest, until the plane is upright and level.
I’m guessing the plane is always in Safe mode.
If you want help -
List exact equip used. RX. Servos etc.
show close up’s of control surfaces on ground.
Get an experienced Spektrum user to look it over. For me
I too believe SAFE is engaged. Maybe by default. I had to re-bind to turn SAFE off. There is specific steps with a Spektrum RX to assign which is engaged during binding.
Remember my first flight on a plane with stabilization, a HK Hawker Tempest 800mm. I couldn't get it to switch modes so I flown in beginner mode at first since I figured as experienced pilot I'll be more than fine, and let me say - beginner mode isn't beginner friendly, at all. The plane wasn't listening to sticks, I was lucky to be flying in an open field because otherwise I'd need to climb a tree to get it down, had to make like a 50m radius circle to get it around for landing. 2nd attempt was on "experienced" mode and while it was a lot better I eventually took off the gyro and fly with just bare minimum equipment
Keep the stabilization off until you resolve your aileron control issue. Try setting differential aileron control- more Up aileron instead of down aileron throws. Some wings don’t like down aileron throw which causes more drag than roll.
looks like you are in 'SAFE' mode which limits throws.... In the radio you have to assign a SAFE/AS3X switch for on/off; ' and/or rotary knob to increase/decrease gyro...You also need 100% rates when using SAFE (if not; it'll take a 40 acre field to get it turned around ) 🙂 just a thought...nice plane, have a great week...
SAFE mode has not been setup at all. Limits have not been set. I even verified this in the radio after the fact to double check. I appreciate the comment!
Put a basic receiver in it. It will be fine. Beautiful model!
Two words: Fu taba. No gyro junk. Just fly the plane with your two sticks. That being said, excellent building skills👍
Wow.. So frustrating when a model just won't cooperate. Its awful, it keeps me up at night and I gotta bother all my flying buddies to try and figure it out.. I'm sure you'll sort this one out... You know what you're doing.. Good luck.. Will
Torsional rigidity of the wing? Are the wings torquing in flight when you deflect the ailerons?
This is being looked at as a possible contributor.
Interesting model ! I hope you are able to solve your problems. I don't know how she is built, but if you can still arrange to have a pinch more dihedral - at least rudder will be able to give more ability to bank for turns. Aileron placement is a bit unique, being so far inboard yields less authority. Another thing I wondered about was the wing itself. Does the wing seem to be rigid? If the whole wing is able to flex ( warp - similar to old time wing warping ) then the ailerons might lose authority because of how the structure behaves.
All my brain storming may be WAY off base. ? Again - Good luck figuring it out.
Built per plans from old school model works and their demo flight looks amazing and calm. This was not.
Are you sure the as3x is going the right direction on ailerons
For the first flight or two I was 100% sure that the problem was a gyroscopic progression issue related to the spin and right-hand rule torque of the dummy rotary-radial. All full size aircraft with engines of this type had additional control issues. I wonder if the ailerons are supposed to have asymmetrical throws (top of wing vs. bottom) due to the flat-bottom wing?
Maybe a touch of differential but it would'nt entirely null out roll input. I've used differential on many WWI models I've setup and their initial flight is fine and the tail is just a bit sloppy in turns. I've got a few ideas yet to exhaust.
@@JoshuaOrchard Good Luck Josh, it's a beautiful model!
You have a stiffness problem in either your fuselage frame and stringer structure or a stiffness problem in your wing box and aileron structure. Sounds like you're getting twist/flex which is inhibiting your roll.
Did you have stabilisation completely tuned off? Looked like the model was set to angle mode for aileron with very little authority. I would try it with a non as3x receiver.
This is my next step. I want to try it on my own FrSky system and see what's what. knowing that it WILL fly rudder only prepares me for what steps I need to take there.
Nice video. Mr. Its funny about those ailroms. Have a tigermoth did the same, if i put a litle rudder and ailrons it turns on cent 😊 no safe or thigs like that. Nice plane you have there, sure u make it work. Waiting to see a good flight mr
It sure looks like it's in SAFE Self-Leveling envelope. That plane will barrel roll with normal aileron throws. Turn the plane upside down and roll it left & right, if the ailerons auto correct back & forth to right the plane...SAFE is on.
That was a bit scary Josh. Looking forward to the solution
We need a flight stabilization system on that? It Is basically an ugly stick, anyone with any flying skill whatsoever can fly it without a stabilization system.
Actually, yes! Because of how much wing area it has, it can be blown around quite a bit in gusty winds. AS3X will dramatically help keep the model stable despite the wind penetration. This is similar to ultramicro models. No worries, I'll get it figured out.
Actually we recommend not using stabilization on our models, especially on maiden flights. Nothing wrong with stabilization, but if not working proper it causes a lot of problems.
@@osmwagree always have a way to turn it off at least which looks like he did
@@osmw Exactly!
You need more than that, you need a miniture female Choppergirl pilot, and a choppergirl roundels.
And my custom soundpack on your transmitter so it talks back to you.
Lot of bad RC advice out there by no nothings.. My first quadcopter flight, everyone was like first you need to hover it in level flight in your cramp back yard or in a garage LOS. That was the absolute worst advice. After almost destroying my model several times, I was like you know what, a big open field, I can totally fly this thing FPV easy peasy after doing so 200 hours in the sim, and I was right.
Now I've got 3,000+ hours behind me in the sim, and I'd never fly any RC with only 200 hours in the sim. The difference is between a baby who can walk, and a high performance world champion ballet dancer.
Just put wind midgation on it
Would have been useful to see how much aileron deflection you have. If that's good though, I'm guessing maybe the stabilization is fighting you, even though you claim it was turned off? You could confirm that by holding the model & manually rolling it back-n-forth. Listen to the servos, you should only hear them moving when stabilization is on. If that's not the problem then maybe the servos are stalling? They might be either under sized for the job or you have an issue with the wiring... low amps getting to the servos. Loose or bendy control horn(s) might be another culprit. Push rods bending under load is another thought. Did you program any aileron differential & if so, check that's not working backwards (should be more up aileron than down). That shouldn't necessarily reduce your roll rate though but I'm running out of ideas. I'd check that stabilized receiver though... maybe try flying it using a standard receiver, see what that does. Good luck, lovely model.
No bendy control horns. THey are DU-BRO and the rods are 4-40 threaded rod and short at that. Ball links on both ends so I know it's not slop in my setup. It's not likely that the servos are stalling. These are small control surfaces on a rather slow model, with a Hitec servo that has more torque than the average standard size servo.
I did confirm that flight mode 1 is DEAD on AS3X. I blipped the throttle and on the other two modes I get servo action when the knob is turned up but nothing on flight mode 1. It's all still a mystery. Really the only other thing that may be a contributor is torsional rigidity of the wing. It seems par for the course but still TBD.
fly farther away we can still see the airplane
Also as3x isn't a gyro, all it does is makes the plane fly more smoothly when you have wind.
That receiver absolutely has a 3 axis MEMS gyro inside. That's how AS3X works :)
@@cdub3d nope
@@Mikeylikesit1968 I would agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong. From one of the product blurbs from the AR630, for example: "The Spektrum AR630 AS3X Telemetry Receiver is a DSM2 and DSMX capable receiver. Its compact footprint is designed to fit in a wide range of aircraft models including park flyers and larger sport models. The AR630 is a full range 6-channel receiver with built in AS3X and SAFE stabilization, which counters the effects of wind, turbulence and torque using 3-axis MEMS gyro and exclusive flight control software tuned by expert RC pilots."
Get rid of SAFE. I don't understand the need to use it. You just spent a bunch of time building something and you turn on SAFE on the maiden. Get some time on the airplane before tinkering with flight stabilization. I've played with flight stabilization with the Aura 5 Lite. I admit it's neat to play with but to rely on it for everyday flying, I don't get the appeal. Learn to fly rudder.
I think you are missing context here, much like another commenter. I regularly fly on a FrSky systemand own zero receivers with stabilization. This is not my thing. I'm off platform and setting up the model for a giveaway sponsored by DU-BRO using a radio and electronics donated by Horizon Hobby. This model could go to literally anyone and I'm just trying to set it up the best I can for that winner to have success. I do think that it's entirely possible that I've setup something wrong here so I'll not count out the stabilization just yet but I will note that SAFE has NOT been setup. AS3X stabilization, but SAFE is a different tech that has no bearing here. No travel limits or heading holds. I'm a scientist by profession so I know to only change one variable at a time. Still, I've nver been a big fan of stabilization but ultimately I will do what's est for this particular model, including shipping it with no stabilization.
such a dum defective, floaty, ANTIQUE design.! bleh all those guys make a LOT of drag. this is an example of a full-size design feature that should NOT be scaled down.
0219 ailerons are small. and, all of the area of the wing trailing edge that is stationary DAMPS responses to aileron inputs. when the model is level, the main landing gear Should be located directly below the wing leading edge. this is an example of FLAWED original design.! imo, it is the opposite of smart to replicate original Mistakes in a design, for the sake of scale accuracy.
0300 because...... wut
0310 if i had a prop strike..... wut
0316 make sure..... wut