Are back scabbards a good idea? REPLY to Skallagrim, Wearing a Sword on Your Back Works, BUT...
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 พ.ค. 2022
- A reply to Skallagrim's video on the problems with wearing a sword on your back: • Yes, Wearing a Sword o...
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Posted this on Skal's video but I'll mention it here too.
One thought about the possible origins of the back carry trope. A few years ago I was choreographing a fantasy short film wherein the main character needed to run, jump, clamber over rocks and trees, etc. extensively before drawing his sword. My original intention was to have the sword on his hip, but as you pointed out there was no way to do these stunts without holding the sword in place with one hand (it kept spilling out or getting in the way). Sprinting with one hand stuck to the hip just didn't play very well on camera though, because it always pulled focus to the sword when that wasn't supposed to be the point of the shot. So eventually we moved to a back scabbard, which tolerated the stunts much better.
My thought is that maybe people think back scabbards are super cool because they see them in movies, but maybe they exist in movies simply because they are so practical IN A MOVIE CONTEXT. And if another context, like your fantasy adventure, has you sprinting, scrambling, and tumbling often, then it might be a practical way to carry a sword for you too.
Todd from Todd's workshop said exactly the same
thats why they say, pains in the ass are the mother of invention... or necessity, however you feel like saying it :) Its similar with modern tactical equipment as well.. being able to sling a rifle to your back when running, climbing, manipulating things, carrying things, is a huge bonus. also, modern military studies show that having weight on your hip is astonishingly more tiresome than having it on your back or chest. That is why police officers have been shifting from duty belts to chest rigs and the military has already been doing it for a long time.
that makes sense. jeanne darc was released in 1900, and robin hood and his merry men in 1907. hollywood officially merged with la by 1910. (thank god for google, huh?)
lotr by tolkien was published in 1954. did anyone have a sword on their back in middle earth...?
plenty of time for generations to be influenced by the film industry even if it wasnt historically accurate.
@@maximusjoseppi5904 now that I think about it maybe an adjustable shoulder sling is the perfect middle ground. In can hook around your belt and wrap around your shoulder and have a button or sliding system so you can sit the sword wherever the hell you feel. In a big city and want to keep your expensive sword from being stolen just adjust it to your waist. In the mountains or traveling in your band for days, adjust your sword to your back so it’s less cumbersome and it’s not swinging everywhere. Honestly just a simple sling system feels like the perfect middle ground that adjusts to fit all situations.
It's actually older, there was a British show from the 80s called Robin of Sherwood. The character Nasir a Saracen carried two scimitars sheathed on his back.
Skall: *says something negative about back scabbards*
Shad 0.01 seconds later:
*Shad designs a custom back scabbard to make it more practical because he really enjoys the aesthetics and possible utilities.*
*Skallagrim calls out back scabbard users as tryhards.*
Shad: "Damn it."
Underrated commnet
The end of the video convinced me, they're both wrong and SOF (Sword On Front) is the true way!
i can imagine Shad and Skall going on an adventure together and skall is like:
"of course, he has that silly shabbard thing"
while on the other hand, shad:
"skall is adventuring with a little sword on his hip. typical."
constantly mocking each other whenever they can about it
That s funny
Like Goku and Vegeta, just on a much more friendly basis.
@@apostleianlovelette Or Beavis and Butthead.
You forgot a small, but significant point, that both of you missed (Here) is that with your long/war sword on your back you can have a shorter one handed sword on your hip. In close spaces to have your short messer and on your back you have your big sword
Yes, it's amazing how both of them were literally wearing this setup at some point and didn't address it lol
I'm a bit late to the party, but I'd say this discussion was really a non-issue in Medieval times.
Knights simply didn't lug around war swords or longswords in peace time on their person. A war/longsword was most likely left at home and when a knight went off to a battle it would either be strapped to the horse or carried around by the knight's page. The logic being that in peace time a knight would have no need for a war/longsword and in case of an actual war, the knight would either get the sword from his horse or from his page before going into battle carrying that war/longsword in his hands.
Ok, fine... you can have the title of King of the Nerds. I'll reserve Edgelord for myself, just in case. ;)
Your back scabbard is smart and well made, but one thing that bothers me about it is that it's partially open. One of the functions that a scabbard fulfills is to protect the blade from the elements. This offers a lot more protection than nothing obviously but it can still easily allow moisture in, and much more than could enter through the gaps between the guard and the mouth of the scabbard. Water could pool in the bottom, although on the upside there is more air circulation which would help dry it out to some extent, I guess.
Ah, I just got to the point in the video where you talked about that.
The sword frog is a good point, that has the same advantages as simply sticking a scabbard through a belt or sash (easy to adjust position, can be taken off quickly to carry by hand). The only DRAWback (hurr hurr) is that you *have* to hold on to the scabbard while drawing the sword.
Depending on the type of chair a back scabbard may be easier to sit down with, yes. At the same time I don't think it would be relevant in many situations. If you're in a tavern or some other public place chances are you're not even allowed to bring a big-ass sword in there (be it history or fantasy). In fact in such a confined space it would be useless anyway. You'd want to carry a shorter blade, which is easy to wear on the hip, sitting or not. If you're out travelling by yourself and want to sit down on a tree stump of whatever the side scabbard wouldn't get in the way, and you could take it off anyway to rest.
I take it you're not a fan of the Naruto run? :D
18:43 You were kind of cutting your own backpack there, weren't you?
Fair enough though, I suppose you can combine a backpack and a back scabbard if you really want to.
19:49 With this particular scabbard there is another problem that I wanted to bring up but couldn't really demonstrate because I don't have anything that can be set up this way. Which is, you're basically carrying a steering wheel on your back. If someone grabs the handle and the scabbard they get a lot of leverage and can use it to take you down. The other issue I'm seeing is that you can do very little to prevent the sword from being taken off your back. Just raising one arm the way you did would not deter a determined attacker/thief from using both hands to take it.
I do think weapon retention is a serious problem. That's why duty holsters for pistols have locks that prevent someone else to access the weapon. A back scabbard may even attract shady individuals who are looking for easy targets. However, holster retention systems are operated on the hip, not behind your back... Trying to unhook something behind your back during an adrenaline rush... doubtful.
28:30 Depending on how you draw from the hip the armpit may be somewhat exposed, but much less so. Also, you now have the sword between yourself and the opponent. When it's on the back there is nothing in between.
By the way, you ended up giving away bonus material from the Patreon-only cut. Naughty, naughty... :p
You couldn't have known what would be in the final version though.
45:30 It looks like my rising cut when drawing connects while your blade is still facing backwards, which means arm = wrecked. To be fair though, I was using a much shorter sword that draws faster. For the final upload I actually added a section where I compared side to back draw and timed it. The difference was only about a quarter second, but it's enough to cut the arm before the sword is ready to attack when drawn from back.
I think we can agree that the only truly convenient way to "carry" a sword is by having a summonable magic version that you can just materialize into your hand from a pocket dimension or whatever. :) And thanks for the response. Overall we mostly agree, it's just about the nitty-gritty details.
Amen to pocket dimension swords.
Love both of you guys, would love to see you 2 and metatron do a little podcast thing
@@BE02Raziel Amen
based
Summoning my weapon has always been my preferred method of carrying. Plus you have the added benefit of selling your sword to an unsuspecting merchant and then summoning it back to you once out of town.
I love how "beefs" in the arms and armour community are just polite discussions about ideals.
Peak violence in the medieval enthusiasts TH-cam game : "What you said is absolutely wrong !... You're pretty chill though"
Solve them with hema duels
I love how ironic it is, cause you'd expect they'd be chasing each other with spears by now lmao
A well armed community is a polite community.
@@Uncephalized Damn... you beat me to it
I've said it before... carrying a sword slung across your back could well have been done the same way soldiers would often carry rifles slung across theirs. That is, a way to carry an inconvenient thing so your hands can be free. Not a method of carrying it with the intention that it can be whipped into immediate in action the face of a sneak attack.
Great point that a lot of the "historical" people forget. Ironically they think of things in a way as if people were fighting as they walked through town on the way to the pub.
@@JohnDoe-pt7ru Even if they're traveling through the wilderness someplace where bandits are a thing. Carrying it slung and not available for a quick draw doesn't mean it's useless. I think the chances of being jumped with no time to prepare at all is even more unlikely in a setting like that than walking around town. If you're walking your pack mule or riding your horse down a road miles between towns and some other group is coming the other way, you're going to have lots of time to size them up and prepare. If you're in an area with very close sight lines and bushes and an attacker could jump out just feet away, and you're really worried that this is a real and immediate danger, you're going to have sword in hand no matter where you have the scabbard slung.
Rifles don't go into scabbards though. You just sling them off your shoulder and they are ready to go.
@@JohnDoe-pt7ru
Well if you ever visited The City State Of The Invincible Overlord, and some of the others of that era you would think so.
There is reason people always have a small accessible sidearm.
Main sword on your back. Dagger or even up to an Arming sword literally anywhere on your person. Best of both situations.
Oz, I'm glad you did the second theft attempt when Shad was busy talking, because my main criticism with the first attempts was that a thief wouldn't steal from someone standing in the middle of nowhere with nothing to do but be aware of their surroundings, a thief would steal from someone in a crowd whose mind is busy with something else!
yeah and buckle won't help
@@favkisnexerade I'd disagree, if someone's sneaky and dexterous enough to undo a buckle mechanism without you realizing it then they'd probably be able to just grab a sheath and just pull it out of the loop, right? If they get their hand on the thing and start pulling it out then you might just be fucked either way.
If you're wearing the Shabbard, then that's not an issue, is it? They'd have to undo the entire thing and then pull up without you realizing someone's fiddling with a thing on your back. And if they don't do that then it's tied to your back, so they're not getting around that easily.
@@dracocrusher it does add an extra step to drawing out though, idk if it's worth it
@@shadpant9255 I'd imagine in most situations if you have to fight someone then you'd have it drawn anyways? Like when are you going to be charged by someone you don't see coming so unexpectedly that you don't have time to undo a button or strap?
So happy this was brought up. I had the same criticism; most actual pickpocketers in real life make heavy use of misdirection and attention management of their marks.
So, well done, Oz! For science
I gotta say Shad, that opener actually make me LOL. Respect.
Oh boy, are you planning to make a response to the response video next, Matt?
Shad: I'm king nerd
Me: he has a castle in his garden, that's right.
@@James-mb3je Having a castle does not make one a king. What makes one a king is victory.
I like the video on the cold open. It was awesome!
Matt, give Shad some pointers in keeping a straight face while saying things that could potentially be interpreted in a different way. He's not quite there at your British stiffness yet.
Skall: * uploads a video *
Shad: * reacts in a 57 min long video and uploads it 1 hour after Skall *
The fastest response in the west.
Time travel.
I smell secret collab
Where Shad is, it is already tomorrow so has had a day to record.
@@shadiversity i guess thats actually how to use back scabbards effectively. when you need the sword, just travel a minute back in time, dake your scabbard down and draw the sword. you'll need -40 seconds to have your sword drawn 🤯🤯
Oz makes a good demonstration of the power of distraction when he captures the sword while Shad is distracted with talking to the camera.
Oz also makes a compelling closing argument to the video. For the sake of completeness, he should have had a sword on each hip, a sword on the front, and a sword on the back to protect against attacks from all horizontal directions. For extra protection, he could wear a crotchard with a sword between his legs and a helmard with a sword on the top of his head.
You know, you unintentionally brought up an interesting point. The reason, there are so many back scabbards in fantasy is probably simply about presentation. If you do a close up shot of the face, the weapon will still be on screen.
I’ll be honest: I go to these kinds of channels because of how wholesome and polite the TH-camrs are with each other. I love that Skall, Metatron, Shad, and Matt are just chill nerds who don’t create needless drama.
You sir, have earned a like from me. Same reason I enjoy these channels as well….. well…. That and because I’ve already studied a majority of the battles of wwi and wwii. So I basically use these channels to brush up on the history that predates NATO and the conglomerate that predated NATO before WWII.
Side note. If you study enough history, you start to notice patterns, where in politicians always repeat the same mistakes of the past. Politicians make poor historians, but historians, in my opinion, would make excellent politicians.
Yep. Because they don't treat it like a popularity contest. Once somebody does that, they gradually become opportunistic and unbearable.
Agreed. This is the kind of conversations that are focused on trying to investigate and understand one another.
Weapons and platform systems histories are complex subjects to study.
These guys have knowledge, humility, humor, and their nerds. Like the rest of us lol.
One benefit of having two hands free when running is that you can hold things.
Grab a heavy Plot Mcguffin and take off running with your sword on the side. That's a fairly common need for an Adventurer
You mean Mcmuffin :V
Omg OZ that is brilliant! Why has noone ever thought of carrying on the front before.
Modern military often sling their firearms on the front for the same reason - it's ready and immediate.
Many past African & Asian warriors actually use front sling scabbard as pointed out by another TH-camr Scholagladiatoria. The mobility arguments even more pronounced as most of the Asian warriors are jungle hunters, where there are activities they need to do in full mobility like climbing trees.
I said this on the other video and I'm saying it here.
The next Elder Scrolls needs to have Skall and Shad as rival blacksmiths with their shops on opposite sides of the street from each other and they're constantly throwing insults at each other and occasionally chase each other with weapons but at the end of the day they're in the tavern drinking together like brothers.
There needs to be a movie that takes place in Medieval Times where Shad and Skallagrim are two characters.
Someone please make this a mod for Skyrim, Please!
@@PrinceAlhorian 🤣
Maybe if Skall ever chooses to move to Australia we could see that reenacted XD
If Bethesda doesn’t do this, there *has to* be a mod that does.
So, after these two discussions about back scabbard vs side scabbard... why not both?
The size of weapon that justifies the back scabbard is not a viable weapon in the kinds of spaces Skallagrim was criticizing the back scabbard for being bad in, while the size of weapon that justifies a side scabbard isn't as strong as the larger weapon with the space to shine. As far as I can tell, carrying a beefy sword in a back scabbard and a short sword or dagger in a side scabbard will cover you for all situations.
In Urban environments, populated towns, claustrophobic city streets and the like, using a beefy sword wouldn't be viable at all. If you get attacked by some guy with a knife, you can't risk hitting civilians, or damaging your sword on a wall. As such, in those situations you would just strap the beefy sword to protect from thieves, and use your sidearm that's actually useful in those environments. Forests could go either way, depending on how dense the forest is and where you get attacked.
In uninhabited roads and fields where you can easily spot thieves and use the beefy sword unhindered, you can loosen the straps on the beefy sword and use that as your primary weapon. Thanks to the range and power of that larger weapon, it can fend off assailants more easily than the smaller weapon, especially if it's 1v2 or more.
This would be overkill for the average person, but I can see this combination being viable for mercenaries, wandering travellers, bodyguards, the kinds of people who don't always know where they're going to be in a few weeks. Having both the beefy sword in the back scabbard and the sidearm in the side scabbard will keep you covered in pretty much every situation you might need to be prepared for.
How much weight do you want to carry around? Swords are heavy. I want to carry as little as possible.
@@Go-ah-oold Sword's aren't particularly heavy at all. A shortsword is less than a kilogram, and the heavier sword Shad was using would probably max out at around 2-3, at the absolute most. The scabbards and swords in total would be maybe 4-5 kilograms. It's additional weight, yeah, but ultimately insignificant.
@@Go-ah-oold swords are not heavy lol
@@calsalitra4689 1kg is still 1000g to much. Karrying 1000g just because you will not use it is unwise. All you carry around should be stuff that you need, nothing else. Having two swords just because you can, well, that may work if you have a home where you can store it easily, if you however go for a 10 year trip to the mountains where the nearest infrastructure is 2000km away, and you will maybee have an upportunity to use it 2 times during 10 years, well, then it is better to not take it with you.
@@Go-ah-oold Good job proving you didn't read my entire comment. If you did, you might have noticed that I specified that I think this is overkill for the average person, and further specified that I think this could be useful for a mercenary, bodyguard, or certain wandering travelers who don't always know what they might need for the road. You could very easily infer from this that I don't think this would be particularly useful for anyone else.
You know what I trully learn from this, that I love Skall and Shad rants about stuff they love and they try to see if it works or not, and also, never give your back to Oz, sneacky sneacky Oz, like a shadow in the dark, like a breeze in a storm, he will steal your sword without saying a word.
I love how you both can have this discussion without trying to shut down the others whole argument, but add to it and be open to each other.
It’s only been like an hour since Skallagrim released the video, how did Shad get enough time to film a response video ?
When it comes to back scabbards I POSES THE POWER OF TIME TRAVEL!!!
It's Shad, how did you not expect this?
@@shadiversity Yaaaaaaa
@@shadiversity man the Medieval History TH-cam community is absolutely epic.
does skallagrim have a membership or patreon (or he sent Shad the video ahead of time) so he saw it early
"We can't debate who's favorite color is right. It's green by the way" "No, it's red, Skallagrim!" THAT was the part I was waiting for. Knowing Shad and Skall's favorite colors and that Shad was TOTALLY going to bring that up once he got to it. You two are the reason I got into swords and melee weapons in general, that I recently began to expand to other types and picked up a three-section staff to add to my collection thus far.
Also I have to agree with Skall, Green > Red.
It's blue, with yellow.
Green is Red's compliment not the other way around so Red>Green.
Green and red looks good together. So does blue and yellow. And purple and orange. And black and pretty much any other colour. But green does sit on top.
@@comradebork As a Swede, I can't officially disagree with that. But in private I can say it's the dark reds, like burgundy or maroon.
you are all wrong, black is the king.😊
One point about the quick draw:
While out in the open it's very useful, you don't want to use such a big sword in crowded places and indoors.
Naturally you'd keep a far smaller weapon on your side if you can, which would work much better when you're limited in space.
So, every issue in those environments only applies when it's your only ready to use weapon.
Clearly the only way to solve this is for Shad to send Skall a version of his back sheath and an EXTREMELY passive aggressive challenge note for him to try it out for a week.
I actually think that 40:10 thing that Oz did only adds to validity of Skall's point about stealing, since at that moment Shad had 0 awareness about it opposed to the tests at around 21:00 mark. So good job, Oz!
I agree. It was my thought that it would be easier to steal the sword from the back then the side as long as the person is not alert or expecting something to happen. All the thief would need to do is wait for the person to be distracted and not as alert and then try and grab it. In that case they are more likely to succeed stealing from the back compared to the side since you hands and arm would naturally be closer to stop the theft. Plus you would have better leverage trying to stop something being grabbed from your belt.
Thief just grabs the hilt and a part of the scabbard in the small of your back. They leverage down, pulling you off your feet. Your fall draws the sword for them. Before you can react you’re on your back with a sword in your throat 🤪😅
Point, but to be honest, if someone wanted to steal your sword, they'd probably have a knife to your throat from a blind spot rather than just hope you didn't have reactions fast enough to grapple them as they fled
@@stevetherush1193 that depends on how much they want to commit crime. Stealing using coercion is robbery instead of theft. If you're caught as robber you are typically charged with a greater penalty than a thief (when the same value is stolen). Pickpockets and thieves are more common than muggers.
@@tribunemetellus6846 then why not just track you and steal it when you put it down? I'm just saying...no way someone is taking your sword from your person and expecting you to just stand there, they expect a beating at the very least...and if you do catch up, maybe a real fight will happen, since they have a sword now
I know he explained how he managed to respond so quickly, but I just like the idea that Shad can see the future and uses that ability to make preemptive response videos.
where? missed that
Wait when did he explain that?
And that’s the ONLY thing he uses the ability for
@@yellovvcake when he said Skall gives material to his patrons before the shorter version hits TH-cam
I think what we've learned out of this, and probably the most important part of the videos. Don't put a shorter sword on your back, back scabbards are for larger weapons.
Also, yes, if you compare everything to those toothpicks skall carries with him as opposed to a longer blade, sure you can draw, swing, do whatever faster - to some extent.
I think the main difference is Shad you are applying this discussion to larger swords and yeah agree with the majority of your points, where as Skall is referring to small or standard size arming swords. But that's just my perspective on the discussion. Love the work keep it.
Skaalgrim: *uploads a video*
Shad: *uploads a 57 minute video reponse 1 hour later*
Me: "I concede, the Shabbard does have the speed advantage"
Lol I love that Shad chose to use the type XVIIIb Longsword by Lockwood that he got FROM Skall for this response.
“Do you need to have your hands free” feels like a point lacking imagination. It’s not hard to think of circumstances where an adventurer needs to be carrying something with both hands but can’t just leave their sword behind.
A ladder, a pole vault, treasure while being chased, a wounded comrade, a crossbow. All *sorts* of things in all *sorts* of circumstances. And then yes, just being able to move your arms when sprinting… say you’re being chased by a bulette, do you really want to have to hold your sword when running or do you want to book it in a heartbeat?
Or hell, what if your left arm is injured and can’t hold the scabbard? Are you just gonna trip yourself up when trying to flee and die for it?
I would argue that while carrying a ladder or something else you porbably wouldn't usually run, which was the focus point of the hands free discussion. For carrying wounded people there are techniques where you just need one hand (and can run) and with the scenario of being chased it would come down for me on what disadvantages/slows me the most - sword or something else.
This is not to proof you wrong, I genuinely can see scenarios where you will want to have both hands free without worrying about the sword getting caught in something, like climbing or having both hands free to stop your fall.
Good point
@HiddenRealm "because it's such an ingrained convenience"
100%
(quality of life improvement :-)
Yea dude, you need hands for things like eating, peeing, smoking, scratching yourself, pulling up your pants adjusting your garb, fiddling in all the various pouches and pockets you have, strapping them back down, catching a random thing that unexpectedly flies your way like a rock or a rabbit or a flying fly…. Try Catching a flying fly or pulling up your pants with a sword in your main hand.
Good luck
bro, it's so good to see Shad having a blast as always making his vids, it's really joyful. The sneak attempt was hilarious
I actually didn't expect Shad to make me laugh THAT hard in the intro "No! I'm more cringeworthy than you! So there!"
I say you win king because you have an Oz, a little.. goblin..smeagol..servant.. I'd say squire but hunchbacks can't use normal human swords. Yes I visualize Oz as a hunchback. Everybody knows having an exotic creature for a servant elevates ones status among nobles. Skall has a wife, and as much as those are exotic creatures to certain types of people, it still doesn't count.
And shad also got one of these
Oz needs to try and steal the sword every time Shad has it on his back.
Dammit! 🤣 That intro alone reminds me, why I keep coming back to this channel! Never lose your humor Shad!
Ok shad - throwing history aside completely, its time to invent 'magic velcro'. The amazing magical force that holds weapons floating a good 6 inches from the back of the computer game adventurer. At first I thought it may involve magnets but I have seen it used to suspend wooden staves and such. Only a man such as you can solve this great mystery of the ages!
Not sure youd want a magnet powerful enough for retention that close to your brain/spine. I have a powerful magnet at my shop that can cause serious problems if you turned it on and waved it close to someones brain. This isnt an mri and the magnetic waves* arent controlled for imaging.
*laymans vernacular... i use this magnet to pick up big pieces of metal at my shop.
Local telekinesis
Shad already did a video with magnets sewn into their clothes to "magically" hold a sword in place. Turns out that magnets powerful enough for this are finicky and dangerous for the hands :p
Gotta love how close knit the medieval TH-cam community is. Another great one Shad
That intro has me dying of laughter.
You are in fact the cringier nerd king, but that’s a good thing.
With your improved design, I think I would definitely prefer a back scabbard if it is not exceeding expensive. Especially if I was a adventurer in a fantasy setting. Well done !
If I were "an adventurer" and if I had a back scabbard, it would not be that hard to craft an efficient "greatsword cloak" for keeping dry. It would have an asymmertical design. what you would want is a single piece of cloth that would drape over the right shoulder, under the scabbard and hanging to the ground, drape across your front and over your left shoulder, then back across your back (over top of the scabbard), and then loop it back to the front side, passing between the sword and the neck, and fold over the body like a very large scarf that then drapes to the ground. I would need to do some tests to get the dimensions right, but I'm picturing something along the shape of a giant long sleeve shirt, with a very broad middle portion, and then thinner "arms" to represent the parts that drape over the front and back of the right arm.
This *should* add up to strong protection from the elements, and fully cover the scabbard, but not interfere with its function. It might be best used with some sort of tabbard or "back skirt" to handle the slit running down the right shoulder though.
My friend, I would love to see a physical example of what you're talking about. Not only could it fix the issue, it sounds really cool! Particularly, a character from a book series I'm trying to write could definitely use this "accessory." XD
The flash can't beat the speed of shad replying to skall's vid
🤣🤣🤣
40:28 Oz NEVER disappoints me. I knew he would try to do it off-script.
The "casual" intimidation attitudes/poses deserve a separate video. I really would like to see OZ performing his own examples.😂😂
feels like shad has quite some experience with acting/roleplay
Team Oz!
@@apollohateshisdayjob9606 He should use the tagline of "All Natural Oz-someness"
I'm all for more Oztistic content and Lord Shad as a medieval sellman.
And Nathan narrating as he usually does, as a tennis commentary.
Shad, you're Shabbard is amazing, just in case you need to hear that.... Maybe Skall should have one for his testing too? I think the exposure to the Elements would be one of the biggest issues for an adventurer, that and the fact that it's damn hard to caress your big Pommel if it's above your head....
And the next Witcher game better include a Shabbard instead of a regular one where the blade morphs in!
Wow that was quick.
A 57 minute long video an hour after skals vid was uploaded...
Must have their notif bells on for each other, wHEEZe
That was my question
@@faust8218 that might be it.
32:40 Experiment proposal: Have Oz standing around with a whistle and a clock. He blows into the whistle at random, which gives you the signal to start drawing. Afterwards you can take a look at how long it takes
Me and my mechanical scabbard: "There will be blood!!! Shed!!!"
I can't believe that Shad didn't mention the most obvious reason for Shabbards. You can carry _at least_ one more sword, possibly two, if one isn't too long. In addition to two swords on each hip, that's _six swords,_ opening the possibility for hextuple wielding, if you have six arms, or an abundance of options, if you have only one or two arms, or even just fewer than six. Obviously, you'll need hands to go with those arms, and, also, you can hextuple wield while having _more_ than six arms, in which case the extra arms won't need hands. Clearly, if you have more or less than two hips or shoulders, that'll throw off the numbers.
Weapon on the back vs weapon on hip intimidation factor.... At first I was with skall casually resting your hand on it is enough for most people to stop and think but it is hard to ignore the rediculus large sword on shads back. Both work well for intimidating someone. I do think you can have your hand on the hilt on your hip and have it look relaxed so if you want to just blend it hip works better.
I am an exercise physiologist and I try to insert some useful information in the comments when applicable. Couple things: not criticisms, but helpful information. Swinging with both arms is biomechanically beneficial. By not swinging your arms, you are affecting your balance in a way that will ultimately slow you down (part of the reason why you swing the opposite arm to the opposite leg). How much does this matter? Depends on the situation but if your balance is affected, other musculature has to work harder thus bringing on the onset of fatigue sooner. I genuinely believe the back scabbard would be more beneficial for adventurers who need to be able to escape a situation as fast as possible.
Yep. I’ve had folks do this before to prove the point…. Run while swinging the same arm as the foot that’s striding. Left leg, left arm and right leg, right arm. It hilarious and basically impossible. Even just walking like that is very awkward and energy inefficient
I Love the banter between these two, this is what makes this community so cool.
As an adventurer, removing the sword in the scabbard, being able to run, having a huge sword, being able climb and wade, are bigger advantages,
but having it stolen from behind, harder to be intimidating and trouble sitting is a much smaller problem since adventurers find themselves in chaotic, rapidly changing environments that are quiet and not full of other humans
Something that annoys me: Skallagrim's belt solution requires two hands to draw, and yet the one-handed solution is clumsier and less convenient?
As for rain and moisture getting in the scabbard, there's records of wooden scabbards swelling and trapping the sword, or for like 19th century steel scabbards, the blades rusting to the scabbards, freezing them in place
that's why you maintain the blade
@@sakesaurus1706 maintain the blade all you want, but if the scabbard swells up, an oily blade isn't gonna save you
If the wood's the problem, change the material.
The commissioned shabbard for example, (the one Shad wears the entire video, not the one he made) is leather. The frongy bit that guides the sword in can still be made of wood, and should keep the sheath straight enough, if i'm understanding how physics and leather works that is.
Test it either way! Validate or debunk me, i wish to know.
@@DZ-1987 the lockwood's scabbard is woodcore. In the medieval period, you couldn't exactly make the scabbard out of polymer. Most scabbards were woodcore and leather scabbards. And I'm pretty sure his backscabbard is woodcore, otherwise it would begin to lose shape since it's so long
@@tylerreed610 Mm, that's a thing is it? Alright, fair enough. And noted.
personally i like the idea of a back scabbard in a fantasy setting i've been brewing for a while. there's a "special forces" type group who primarily patrol and enforce a very wet swamp region, they carry a swordstaff as a primary weapon but also have a short machete like blade they wear across their back both for utility and if the combat gets too close for their staves.... why this particular combo? they can wade damn near up to their waste in water and not have to worry about their metal weapons getting submerged and the protective oil getting washed off.
One major advantage drawing from the hip has it that even before the sward fully out it is shielding your torso.
This video really convinced me of one thing.
Back scabbards, and especially the open one, is at least imo amazing for carrying really big swords. It just seems better in almost every way.
I'll say I'm with skall for shorter swords tho.
So.... As usual, use case is almost everything.
I feel that the difference is that when you draw it from the side you immediately get protection from the moment you start drawing it because it is facing the enemy. So even when it's not fully out you can still catch the enemy's blade. I see that less with the backscabbard
I agree.
True but it’s not like it really defends your armpits from thrusts which is the main point.
Drawing your weapon in general puts you at risk, and I think the shabard actually has a place for larger swords that simply can’t be drawn effectively from the hip.
@@rhett6946
Katana on the hip and Two Handed War Sword on the back... Then carry a Great Sword for the lols.
This video is everything I love about this channel. You don't fall victim to your own bias, you try to work through a problem and figure out solutions instead of thinking of as many arguments that you can just to confirm your original opinion.
"You don't fall victim to your own bias"
I wouldn't really say that. I mean his use of objective when stuff ain't kind of shows him putting a bias over truth, like what makes an "objectively" good weapon. I mean that entire video was him putting forth a subjective standard for what makes a good weapon and finding objective ways to go about meeting his subjective standard. I'm not saying he isn't open to reevaluate his stances but he can be just as stubborn to his biases like all the rest of us. On what makes good storytelling or not he is very biased.
The head nod was terrifying
Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t.
Gotta love the back and forth between Skallagrim and Shadiversity.
Just on the stealing the sword thing:
The vast majority of pickpockets are blending in, just another passerby. And sometimes they work in pairs. So someone might wander up, you don't notice them as a pickpocket, and then you've lost your sword. Or, it might be walking in pairs. On wanders up, bumps into you, sort of gets caughts and/or draws your vision, then the other one comes up and you're robbed. Many ways work. So whilst the Oz test does show it's decently possible even when your confident anyone aproaching is a pickpocket, in the real world it could be even more difficult to detect before they grab your blade.
Mechanical Scabbards for the win.
RE: The ease of stealing the sword from your back -
If someone with ill intent can surreptitiously get close enough to one person to steal a sword sheathed on their victim's back, they can also get close enough to someone wearing a sword on their belt to jam a knife in their neck or armpit and then proceed to take all their valuables while their victim bleeds out. If we're talking about a pickpocket-esque scenario, a practiced thief isn't going to bother with somebody openly carrying around weapons and seemingly ready for a fight; even if the thief can get the sword off them, they can still chase the thief down and "persuade" them to give back the sword at the point of a dagger or short sword that the adventurer is most likely carrying.
On the point of secondary weapons, here's a rebuttal to one of Skal's point's in his comment on this video, about the back scabbard becoming a "Steering wheel" to manipulate someone in a grappling situation; While an assaulter is busy trying to wrestle an adventurer to the ground via his scabbard, at least one of the adventurer's hands are free to unsheath a dagger and slip it between the ribs of his attacker, or if the attacker is behind them, cut the strap of the scabbard and get some separation.
@@HiddenRealm In a situation where it's either A; pay a few coins to a tanner or blacksmith or whomever to repair and readjust a leather strap or B; die, I know which choice I'd make in the moment. A corpse doesn't really have need of pristine equipment.
By "persuade" I meant "stab them in the back as they try to run away". Any thief dumb enough to steal from an armed and presumably experienced warrior is also stupid enough to try to fight it out with them, so why give them the chance? Either way, we both seem to agree most thieves would rather go after softer marks, so I doubt it'd be all that common of a scenario.
On sidearms, we obviously agree. I think its a given anyone who's life revolves around violence would quickly fall into the habit of having a small, exceedingly quick to draw, weapon in easy reach. The utility of the thing is just too high not to.
Also, all this is being said from the highly unrealistic assumption that any real world adventurers would be going around solo. It's a hell of a lot harder to steal from someone who's got three or four armed friends watching their back. It also eases up on some of your own SA burden.
Not to be rude, but a lot of your points are stupid. You are ignoring pieces of info, or adding points that might not be true to make your points. Example:
In your first point your argument is based around if someone wishes you harm they could do worse things. This is dumb because you are asserting that they can do those things. What if the guy sneaking up on you is unarmed? How is he meant to stab you then? If the guy is unarmed the worst thing they could do is take your weapon and use it on you.
BTW, just because they CAN do worse, doesn't mean they want to, also just because they CAN do worse doesn't make the holes in your defence not holes.
Your second point about a thief not bothering is also stupid because you are just making a bunch of assumptions. Not only about them being a "practiced thief", but also that the sword isn't extremely valuable itself. If the sword is valuable and easy to take, why not take it?
More on that, why would them being "ready for a fight" change anything? The guy above me makes a salient point, why would they be scared of this dude with a little knife when they now have a far superior weapon?
There are other issues, but "Hidden" seems to cover em.
@@mikegeen7826 My first point was meant to illustrate that Skal and Shad are missing the obvious worst case scenario that obviates the need to worry about stolen swords, and, by inference, that your primary objective is to not get snuck up on in the first place.
My second point isn't based on assumptions, but on the basic principles of any predator. Thieves want to pick targets with the lowest possibility of harm to themselves. By "practiced thief", I mean someone who has been robbing people for longer than a month or two and hasn't wound up thrown in jail, losing a hand, or beaten to death in the back of an alley. An "unpracticed thief" who tries to pull shit like this ends up dead rather quickly. It doesn't matter how valuable a weapon is if you wind up dead long before you can sell it off, and any street wise kid is gonna understand that logic.
Finally, you can assert all you want that a pissed off man, probably in some sort of armor, trained to fight, who kills people and monsters for a living, and is armed with "only" a dagger is less threatening than a half starved pickpocket whose only conception of armed combat is "the pointy end goes into the other man" and is holding a sword for the first time in his life. I for one beg to differ. And again, an experienced thief, even one who, for some reason, might be able hold his own in a fight, still isn't going to put himself in that situation in the first place. The potential for a horrendous return on investment is just too damn high.
@@uummmnocoolnames
Yes, and that point is stupid. The conversation is about the weaknesses of a back scabbard vs. a traditional one. You "pointing out" someone could stab a guy in the back might as well as been you pointing out that the guy could be shot with a handgun. The point is that the back scabbard has an additional problem that the traditional doesn't.
Also, again, you are looking at this extremely unintelligently. Looking at worst case scenario, and only worst case ignores every failing up until that point. Also, using the logic of basically "just don't get snuck up on, bro". Applies to everything. Sword and shield vs. only sword. Pretty much even. Just don't get cut/stabbed, bro.
Your point is absolutely based on assumptions, multiple assumptions. As is just about everything you write. Even your defence is lame. "Well, a thief would choose an easier target". As if that applies to everyone, it doesn't. Some steal candy, some rob banks. If something is valuable enough, they might take it. If someone is desperate enough, they might act rashly. Also, if someone put them up to it, or if they hold some kind of advantage (like the guy not knowing the place and it being tricky to navigate). They again might.
It is baffling to me that you can only see things from such a specific, linear view point.
This last part is funny:
You: "I am not making assumption"
Also, you: "A pissed off man, probably in some sort of armor, trained to fight, who kills people and monsters for a living".
Kek, wtf, I guess you got me. I forgot that the thief in this scenario was just a dude, but the guy with a sword on his back was some kind of Superman. My mistake. Seriously, what a fucking stupid point. Imagine so desperately clinging to your wrong point that you need to max out one dudes stats (in all scenarios, BTW), but reduce the other guy to mentally challenged at best practically.
@@mikegeen7826
It's not a stupid point, it's providing context to the situation. It's *perhaps* not very relevant to the main topic itself, but that's really it, and that is a perhaps. It's relevant to the larger context of the entire discussion, because the severity or importance of the matter goes way down when considering who would be at risk for theft.
That's not an assumption, that's verifiable fact, based on countless years of history, and a farily basic understanding of how someone who robs would think. You literally said how it's bad that he made assumptions, but you're assuming something that is very atypical "if someone is desperate enough, they might act rashly". It's a very generally accurate position, it's quite the opposite of linear.
Even if somewhat exaggerated, what are the actual dynamics here between the theif and the sword wielder? The life, goals, and and capabilities of a theif are gonna be a lot different than an adventurer, so even just as a general thing, there is a decent bit of validity to saying that the thief is far less prepared and wanting to even engage in any fighting. I find it highly ironic that you said "Not to be rude...", and yet very quickly become toxic and insulting, but hey, shit like that is becoming the new "Not to be racist, but-". Again, he didn't reduce anything, he provided context in an area (unneeded at worst), and gave a better understanding in another. Tbh tho, it just seems like you're toxic, so I'm not even sure any argumentation would matter
I just wanted to say I enjoy all the effort, research and passion you put into subjects like this; at this point I'm happy to say that Side Scabbard vs Back Shabbard does come down to a matter of personal preference, but now there's one subject relating to this which I'd be interested to see you cover;
The viability of arm-based sheathes for smaller blades (both forearm and up to your shoulder).
When timing your draw, time each weapon either to Longpoint, as if you’re completing the first cut, or to Parry, for defensive draw. Apples to apples… :)
Japanese style of sword techniques.
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 Could you elaborate the meaning behind your sentence?
@@daedalus5253
One of the japanese style for sword combat focuses on unsheathing the katana in such a way that you can strike or deflect another weapon in a single motion.
European sword combat styles has this too but it's not that elaborate/common to see in manuscripts.
As is the case with most European long swords where such techniques do not work or act as a "half blade" action because the sword is too long or too short... That such techniques become negligible at best.
So the general take seems to be that both scabbards are cool in their own way rule-of-cool wise, and have considerable minor drawbacks.
Generally the shabbard is good for big swords and maybe a little better for adventurers, but has room to be optimised. Scabbard is still the general way to go esp for a purely self-defense weapon and naturally better for shorter swords as well. Just remember that a sidearm can also be used in addition to a shabbard as well.
Dude! ❤❤❤ I love those videos! They are full of great content and blow my imagination to the skies.
Shad posing to show how the back scabbards can intimidate remembers me of his mall ninja video talking about how people like to pose with their weapons
You have just been putting out videos left and right this week Shad. All I have to say is good job to you, Oz and Nathan.
Well damn! I 100% expected a reply posted by Shad but this was put out much faster than I could ever hope for. Honestly just can't wait to watch the video.
Never had I seen a video both opening and ending so powerfully
When a person is going to steal from you..does it really matter if it's on the back or not? If a person has it at their hip, the thief can just run by while grabbing the handle and draw it as they run. You're likely NOT stopping that if it's on the hip, at all.
This is probably why some of the japanese gunto had locking mechanisms on them.
I don't know what the big argument is, everyone knows drawing a sword from a pencil is the easiest way.
I've been reading the book series, last kingdom and one of the thing I remember most is Uther talking about how he wears his sword, serpent-breath, on his back because, in his own words, it's easier to pull out in mid fight and also combine it with a strike, since you can slam it down as you pull it up. While reading that I was thinking "lol, shad would have something to say to this guy"
You can combine your draw with a strike when drawing from the side, too. You can strike with the blade of the sword right as you draw the sword out of the scabbard. And if you really wanted to you could strike with the pommel or guard as you draw the sword out. And you wouldn't have to go into wrath guard in between. I don't think it is easier or faster to pull a sword out of a scabbard mid-fight than from a side scabbard. To the contrary, I think the side scabbard draw is quicker and easier unless you are carrying a particularly large sword like a greatsword. And you get a more intuitive draw with a side scabbard.
Dude should’ve watched Skal’s video, those quick-draw comparisons overlapped on green screen was awesome.
The backscabbard lets you poke someone standing behind you with the scabbard, obviously a disadvantage for the side scabbard, where you can only go for groin shots. Poking the face is a major historical technique
That whole book series is bullshit
Iaido is a style completely centered around quick draw slashes though, this won't work from back scabbards..
Intimidation part is definitely correct. Looking at the face you can't even see sword at the belt, action of resting your arm on it, draws your attention there. Sword on the back, you can't unsee it.
Only detriment to back sword I see is cloaks. Detaching it can be designed with 2 hooks. If you have detachment, then you can protect that open sword part by detaching it.
But it has a lot of advantages over regular one.
I still like regular scabbard because you have complete scabbard and not altered one and it takes less space than back one if you detach it but If you exclude cloaks, back one seems to be more useful overall.
You hit on this but it made the most sense for me to view it this way:
One way of carry will excel and the other will fall short depending on the need.
In the military we generally knew our mission's needs. We had our mission essential gear and loadout configured for that specific mission. If we stuck to only 1 loadout, being flexible / adaptable would only get you so far.
What is the need? You both already presented nearly all scenarios.
To me, the winner is who can draw the sword faster and not lose it in transit. That's likely the life or death test for most cases.
Well done.
It seems like this:
Longer Swords/Great Swords, it's best on the back (With Shad's Scabbard design)
Short Swords and Longswords, can be better on the hip, since the length of the blade isn't a problem.
Length of the blade seems to be the deciding factor, as Skallagrim never used anything longer than an Arming Sword it seemed. As Shad points out in his video many times, length of the sword matters just as much.
Just as Skall mentioned in his video. It was literally his closing argument for that video on when he can see a back scabbard being usefull.
@@antonakesson quite literally I paused not 10 seconds before
Skall's video one hour old. This one is 57 mins long and just came out. Did it take him 4 minutes to get dressed, prepared and start talking? Or shad just walks around with his sword & brigandine always ready at minutes notice (litteraly) to debate back scabbards?
When it comes to back scabbards I POSES THE POWER OF TIME TRAVEL!
@@shadiversity Is it a closed loop model of time travel?
One to peruse the video. One to prepare the setting. 57 to make a response. One to upload it.
I just love how friendly these guys are to each other its like they're brothers who love each other ❤
I was sold from the first video, but then I made one myself and tried it out and loved it even more.
We need more Skall-Shad collabs! =)
It's like Shad Sensed a disturbance in the force and quickly reacted.
Edit: Interesting Point, I'm from South East Asia, and Farmers Carry thier Bolo's with or without Scabbard using a Rope around the waist to this day. Bolo's for agricultural Use , chopping wood, getting rid of Grass in the farm or hacking a way in the jungle such versatile Tool.
I think the back scabbard has an advantage in transporting.. As in you're not expecting a bad guy to attack you any second.. like a troop march. You slap your sword/s on your back and get it out of the way.. If you're expecting trouble, you move it to your hip...
The lesson here for me is if you want a big fuck off sword, carry two. Practical sword on the hip, large sword on the back, and if you plan to use it, take it off in advance.
What I'm not seeing addressed is that when drawing from the hip, the sword is IN FRONT of you, thus being a less vulnerable position in the immediate time-frame
a sword that long would ideally be drawn when your opponent is more than a few arm lengths away.
the length wouldnt be practical if your opponent closes the gap, i would assume.
Just a minor comment on the Sword stealing test, you have the advantage of being aware that at some point it Oz will make the attempt. In day to day life, unless you're obscenely paranoid, you're not going to be as aware. If you're in a situation where you feel extra awareness is warranted and you devote the additional energy to being extra aware, then yes, it would be more difficult to steal. In a practical sense though, unless your sword is especially valuable, no thief worth their salt is going to target a hyper vigilant and jumpy adventurer, they'll find an easier mark like someone who is more lackadaisical, distracted or impaired in some way (Inebriated, upset, etc.). The hip scabbard has the advantage of being in a naturaly easier to observe location and a very practical and effective way to keep extra safe that doesn't impact its utility, you can just rest a hand on it. The same could be done with the back scabbard though that would get tiring for your arm and is naturally very conspicuous.
[EDIT] 40:27 Yeah, like that.
🤣🤣 that was so good. oz is a funny guy
I’m other words they need to be as paranoid as me (who trusts nobody and is constantly making sure my stuff is exactly where it’s supposed to be) for the sword stealing test to be considered valid.
Shad, a nail-catch back Shabard
A back sheath with quick release method if you use 2 nail point on the Shabard instead of just one like with your bow or spear.
Gotta thank you both for calling it, A BACKPACK...and not a freaking napsack. It's for packing down the trail and road, with all your things..on your BACK...! Thanks again to you both for interesting thoughts and ideas. Fun show as always. Enjoyed very much as usual. Good night.
After watching both videos and being more on the side of the back... I'm gona have to give this one to skall. Most of them came down to nitpicks and practice of drawing from each position, but skall has convinced me that drawing from the hip has the slightest edge against the back. But all and all, I don't think it matters that much. the difference seems negligible.
Running w/o arms: apparently running with the arms uses about 10% less energy than running with arms still. Not sure how that affects immobilizing a single arm, but even if it's 5%, surely that will make some difference.
Also as another comment says the arms are also used for balance while running or during other various activities on their own. (As in you don't put much mental or physical effort into this natural body balancing system).
when running with arms down it is also harder to breathe correctly, so you may end up in better shape after the sprint.
The main things the arms are used for is balance and helps breathing which improves distance running.
Slightly off topic, but this is why it doesn't really make sense for humanoid fantasy races that have tails have better balance because of the tail. Our arms are just so good at that that a tail wouldn't make much of a difference.
@@AnotherDuck tails make a huge difference when changing direction. But your right it wouldn't affect 2 legged humanoids balance much as you want to maintain balance around the center of gravity.
4 legged animals on the other hand get massive improvement for high speed turns.
One of the things about hearing people sneaking up behind you on the grass… If you’re walking through a busy town or busy city street there’s probably enough background noise that you won’t hear somebody coming up behind you to swipe your sword off of you
I like the look of the back scabbars aswell, but in a high stress situation, side scabbard is way more reliable in my opinion. The reaching to the back is just more awkward than going to the hip.
to be fair the awareness test performed here has a flaw, shad is completely ready that someone is coming to take the sword even if not when, in a real world scenario you wouldnt Stand around waiting for someone to come grab your sword, and they would probably do it when you're occupied with some other activity that has your focus.
watch the video further ;) better test performance ahead
I think it's so flawed that a skilled pickpocket could steal a sword from a side scabbard as well. Sure, it's easier to steal from a back scabbard, but the main issue is the thief's skills and the circumstances, not the particular scabbard.
And right as I finish Skallagrim's video and refresh youtube, Shad uploads his response. I do not think timing can be more perfect.
Upvoted just for the frog. Very cool idea, makes so much sense. Also, awesome mic! Based on the huge wind in the background.
17:06 In the fallout RPG's, putting your weapon away significantly increases your running speed. I have actually experienced this while hunting. There's a reason rifles had slings.
🌸😹I cannot say that I did not see this coming and it shall be interesting to see your take and it is astonishing how swift your reply was.😹🌸
I realize we have a video of a grown man in medieval cosplay explaining sword scabbards in front of a fake castle he built in his backyard... The King of Nerds, indeed. I bow to thee
Exactly shad if you are anticipating danger you either have a quick draw frog or you already have your blade in your hand and as for carrying your sheath around in your hand, yes I pull my weapon sheath in all from my hip just before I sit down or lay back against a tree or wall
Hey Shad. One probable solution to the rain thing is to have the slit facing DOWN instead of up. You'd have to draw it from the opposite shoulder, but it might be worth exploring.