The Myths & Truths About The Wheel Flanges Revealed! Hornby Triang.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ย. 2024
- Hornby Triang Featuring: All about the differences of the 4 variants in wheel flanges used on the Triang/Hornby X.122/X.3122/X.210/X.3169 power bogies as used in Triang/Hornby locos R55, R155, R159, R253, R353, R257 & R753. Thanks for watching, cheers, John.
As a newbie I recently bought a dockyard shunter, it was shorting all the time , I found one set of wheels wrong way round , so problem solved , thanks to you 😀
you are some Dude!!! at last a real old school video on how to increase power, my favourite so far!!
Thanks buddy for the great comment. Cheers, John.
Hello again John. James from Lincoln.
Just watched another video re wheels and flanges, again very interesting and informative. Having slight problem with some rolling stolck lifting on the points, so now looking for the small flanged wheels, Kind regards, take care, and keep safe. All good fun?
Nice one Neil....I too have done this & yes it does work well...it's just that not everybody has the facility to do this. That is why I did the vid for people to locate the smooth/smaller flange wheels themselves. Just one small point here, When turning the flanges down in a lathe there is obviously a lot of heat generated & this can cause melting of the plastic insulating bush on the pick-up wheel! It is best to remove the wheel & bush from the axel first. Thanks for your comment, cheers, John.
I couldn't agree with you more! Thanks for all your comments & input to my channel. Best regards, John.
I was hoping this video would help a lot of people out there understand more the issues with running old locos on later track. Big thanks again Adam for your support. Cheers, John.
I either rewheeled all my stock with more accurate aftermarket wheelsets or simply rigged wires to the power bogie / engine block and held the wheels over a file until they were suitably turned down.
Moving or spinning the work over a fixed file, as opposed to actual filing the work fixed in place, is called "Linishing" in engineering parlance.
Oddly enough the spoked wagon wheels in metal underframes (1959 until early 1960's) will happily run on code 75 and code points and track with no problem.
Yes....your points are noted & understood here. Cheers, John.
Hello again buddy....that's a nice kind comment from you. Thank you. Cheers, John.
Thank you, John, great advice and tips we presented in your videos
Thank you Andrew....glad the video helped you. Doing wheel changing on these old Triang locos & rolling stock isn't such a big deal really...it just needs a bit of TLC, patience & the correct replacements. Regards, John.
Hi buddy. Yes, I'm not surprised in the least! I am in the process of having about 50 sets of the old Triang loco drive wheels reprofiled to use on modern track. I will be putting some of them on ebay in the near future. Cheers, John.
Good information John. Still a useful resource in 2020 that I recommend to people having locomotives using these Tri-ang based products. Some extra thoughts from me:
A very good power bogie for its time and still much to recommend it today. The list of model types using this bogie got very long as I thought about and looked up variations of this four wheeled power bogie.
Used in the following models if you include the variations with different side frames, as did Tri-ang in the service sheets :
R 55 Single ended Diesel from 1955 or 1956 with the introduction of this power bogie I think
R 155 Diesel Switcher - 1957
R 156 SR Suburban Motor Coach -1957
R 157 Diesel Power Car (later 101 DMU) -1958
R 159 Double Ended Diesel - 1958
R 253 Dock Shunter - 1958
R 257 Double Ended Diesel with operating pantographs - 1959 (as originally described in some sources and the Australian instruction leaflet coming with locomotives and sets. So a lack of knowledge at Tri-ang Moldex about what a diesel was. )
R 450 NSW Suburban Motor Car with operating pantograph - 1960 ( a very rare semi scale Australia only production, but possibly too "suburban" to be popular even in Australia. )
R 555 Blue Pullman Power Car - 1963
R 753 AL1 Electric - 1964 or 1965 (After Tri-ang ditched the Hornby Dublo single axle drive unit after the 1964 Hornby-Dublo collapse and clear out)
Not including colour variation based renumberings.
Eagerly looking forward to when you are able to post new videos.
Regards
John D.
Thanks for your comment Dylan & yes....the replacement wheels are fine but the grip is not as good as the ribbed ones! I am in the process of having about 40 sets of the large flange ribbed wheels turned-down on a laythe...I will be putting some of them on ebay in time. Regards, John.
As always straightforward information, very well explained, and a few "wrinkles" to help us on our way, many thanks.
Hi, just sorted out my dock shunter with the issue over points, I removed the wheel axel and put this in my lathe and turned down the flange diameter to give clearance that i measured with my callipers, it now runs smooth over all point's etc. Neil
I also found this problem with some of the wheels on carriages which had the old plastic wheels , , so have changed a few to the new metal wheels , now no problem
Hi buddy & yes me too....I'd thought of doing exactly the same with my Dremel! You would have to be very carefull though not to damage the top of the frog section! In the end I decided against this & opted for the safer way by finding suitable replacement wheels! Kind regards, John.
Always full of Hints n Tips, always interesting to watch, keep the TH-cam clips coming, most are educational in a Dummy Guide to Modelling, Thumbs Up buddy!
To be honest with you my friend....I have personally found that most of the time it is the drive wheels that present the main problem with little [or no] trouble coming from the coach wheels....even from the same sets! Nevertheless....I have had a few coaches which ran on the sleeper-grips & needed wheel changes! Thanks again for a good comment. Cheers, John.
I think measuring the overall dimension of the wheel Including flange is misleading. You need to measure the diameter over the tyre or tread, set the caliper to 0 and THEN measure the total diameter, and divide by 2. That will tell you the depth of the flange, which is the issue. Also the back to back dimension is crucial.
Hi buddy, glad you found the video useful....that was exactly my intentions in making & uploading it! Regards, John.
Hello Hugh & thanks for your comment & question. OK, to be honest no I don't! When I get problems like this myself I look really deep into everything & most of the time I find the problem(s). One problem that most people don't think about is the wheel spacing! I have had many-a-time an axel where the wheel spacing has moved...either inwards or outwards. I use electronic callipers to get the spacing very accurate! Try this first. Best regards, John.
Ahh, wheel flanges! I have this problem too, and it can cause rolling stock to de-rail also.
I had thought about taking a grinding disc attached to my Dremel and grinding down the plastic on the frog to allow more clearance. Just enough and not too much so as too weaken it. Not done one yet, but may give that it ago later today....
Surely if you only replace the front wheels, you can't reverse over a point as the unchanged wheels will lift?
I made new wheels out of brass on a metal lathe. I first tried to trim the original wheels on the lathe but they were too hard. I guess I could have heated them to take the temper out, but it was more fun to make my own. Works pretty good.
crusherbmx Well that's sure interesting buddy! I think if you'd heated them they may have miss-shaped? Yes....they are very hard....the guy who does mine uses a Carbide Cutter! Thanks for the comment, regards, John.
You'd need a carbide cutter at the least! I'm saving the old wheels just in case I come across a carbide cutter or something else that works.
crusherbmx Sounds about right to me buddy! Thanks for the comment. Cheers, John.
Hi John, What are these sleeper grips you keep going on about. Do you mean the chairs that hold the track?
Hi Albert. OK, all the export models [inc the Vic loco etc] had smooth, smaller flanged wheels so I don't know why you should be having a problem with the Vic loco? Nevertheless & either way I am in the process of having 60 axel sets of the ribbed [better grip] wheels turned-down on a precision grinder to enable them to work on modern track! I have just collected the first trail pair & they are perfect! When I get all the others back I'll do a video on this & put some on Ebay. Regards, John.
I had the same problem with the horrible old clunky plastic wheels on the hopper wagons I bought - the flanges can be easily sanded down to stop the lifting problem and I also went to the trouble of filing down the width of the wheels too, so they were virtually identical in width to modern wheel sets, however, I found plastic wheels both unrealistic and very prone to attracting and depositing dirt on rail heads, so I have now replaced all wheel sets with metal ones. Much better running - the wheels run freely, less drag and far less dirt. I consequently now have a bag of plastic wheel sets which I was going to bin, but if anyone wants them, I would be quite happy to give them away. Most are wagon wheels with just a few carriage (12mm) sets.
On the old (50's/60's) Hornby working bottom drop hoppers, I even managed to replace the axles (metal pins) along with the wheels by inserting brass bearings and using Peco metal pin-point axle sets. Quite a tricky but well worthwhile project.
I will put up a video of how to do this on my channel in the not too distant future.
I wish i had seen this video a week ago. Spent hours trying to figure out why some of my DC Loco's were stalling on Peco Insulfrog points. I thought the wheels were shorting out on the frog. ie, the wheels were bridging the two legs of the frog. Took me hours to figure out the the plastic troughs were not deep enough and the wheels were lifting off the track. I used a small piece of emery cloth to sand out the troughs to make them deeper.
Hi buddy & thanks for your comment. I'm glad the video gave you an insight to the various problems these wheels can cause! All the best John.
Great video as always. I have done many of my old locos now thanks to this, however I still use Code 100 track in most of the layouts, and old flanges are never an issue. I know many modelers want the latest track etc, but if you model 1950's and 60's for example, code 100 track is fine. There is still a huge market for it, flex track and points, which is why it is still made. And it is cheaper too, yet more reliable.
...................I'm constantly learning about my power bogies from your informative vdos. Yes I find the nylon cogs do move about on the axle and obviously are more susceptible to wear than the older brass ones. Fortunately I only have one model with these wheels...and as you say they are from a R155 Switcher that must have come here long ago. It has the CN livery so that must place it around the early 70's (?).
Yes Brian that sounds about righ for the R155 switcher. If you ever have problems with her I can supply you with 2 axles fitted with brass cogs....no problem! Thanks again for the nice comments & support. Best, John.
chambs123
Another point I might mention , you mention that some of the older export models have the later wheels which don't cause problems : I could be wrong on this but as I believe that track of which Hornby called system six had been around years before they ever started doing it and was likely what most of the rest of the world had . Also I might also mention when it come to HO and OO though the track gauge is the same , the scale is different and that includes the track . SEE NEXT COMMENT
Hi John
Looking to replace wheel set on a train blue pullman and also on a triang class 31 .
Can you please point me in the direction to buy replacement replacement wheels.
Thanks
Andy
living here in the states, I bought some tri ang not knowing this about the wheels, in short had to replace the wheels on the rolling stock.
There is now replacement wheels on e eBay for this, you just take the old triang ones off the axel and put the replacement ones on, iv done it on one of my blue Pullmans the only disadvantage iv found is wheel spin. So I'm tempted to put the old ones back on because I borrowed the idea off you of having a dedicated super 4 track :p
I have two alternative solutions....
1. Use switches with metal frogs, this will require a relay or switch machine to change polarity on the frog but it will result in flawless operation over the entire switch.
2. Instal aftermarket sliding rail pickups to improve electrical contact between the loco and the rails, this is an especially useful modification on locos with only two axles.
Hi matey & thanks for your input to my channel. OK, what you say does have some credibility but please let me explain. Whilst insulfrog points do have less advantage than electrofrog points....in actual fact this doesn't really cure the problem of the height of the older wheel flanges. The main problem with them is the fact that the flanges hit the bottom of the point trough on 'any kind of points'! ....and this causes the wheels 'to lift' & so the loco will always stop regardless of the kind/brand of points used. Kindest regards, John.
chambs123
Ok, then use aftermarket sliding rail pick up shoes.
srenchin
Understood my friend....thank you. Cheers, John.
hello there
What great information you have now solved my problem i have een loooking for a good aussie triang Vic railways engine but all the flanges on the wheels are large i have two others now with the same problem im gonna search ebay for some wheels wow thats great news thank you so much mate
cheers
Albert( the mad Aussie)
Sounds like a good ending story to me buddy! Cheers, John.
You like so many are very serious about your hobby of preoccupation, thanks for such insight and I came on to make sure that the train sets are Hornby Triang, no memory loss there, I am pleased. Interesting and detailed discussion and thank you for sharing.
Thanks again Hendrik....your kind comments are appreciated. Cheers, John.
Hi John, They are not sleeper groups they are chairs.
Hello John. Could you inform me of a supplier of the small fang wheels., James of Lincoln.( Rolling stock ).
I have been looking for ages to find out how to replace the entire drive wheel of the nylon geared wheel as shown at 17:13. the motor runs but at some time in the locos past someone has dropped it and the nylon gear teeth have gotten mashed to a point where the worm will not go through them. How did you get the wheel off the loco and do you know if you can buy replacement nylom gears? Thank you.
Hey buddy no worries there.....lol! Cheers, John.
The theory behind the ribbed wheels is an interesting one. I would have thought they would lead to less grip and that in this instance smooth would in fact have more grip. So this is not so, interesting
Hello Hendrik & yes....the ribbed wheels do grip better....along with the diesel kind-of noise they make. Thanks for your valued comment. Cheers, John.
hmmm could you not just hollow out the frog a bit then it would save all the wheel swapping? or would that be too risky? i'm thinking of doing this on my layout as unfortunately its hard to find replacement wheels for my locos
Yes Tom I have already thought about that. Also thought about making a special tool to do it but...after further thought, I decided against it as if I change all the wheels over a period of time, I can then do away with the older track altogether! Seasons greetings & best regards, John.
John, just " discovered " you on You Tube. I saw your videos about exchanging loco wheels. Are you able to replace " Jinty" engine wheels from the 1950's. Also for a 1960's Battle of Britain class.?
As far as I can tell, you're only measuring the diameter of the flanges. I would assume that in order to measure / calculate the actual height of the flanges, you would also have to measure the diameter of the wheel tread, and subtract this from the diameter of the flanges (and then divide by 2)
It might be so that all the wheels you are measuring all have the same wheel tread diameter, but it would make sense for me to point this out.
A wheel with a tread diameter of 17 mm and a flange diameter of 19 mm will have a flange height of 1 mm.
Whereas a wheel with diameter of 13,5 mm and a flange diameter of 17,5 mm will have a flange height of 2 mm.
Thus a wheel with a bigger flange diameter can actually have smaller flange height than a wheel with a smaller flange diameter.
In other words, a smaller flange diameter does not necessarily mean a smaller flange height, and it's the flange height that is causing these problems.
good to see a info vid agAIN
Funnily enough I have an old what I believe to be 1953 Tri-ang Princess Elizabeth that had to have the drive wheel flanges turned down so it will run on system six or as I believe known universally as standard 100 track . I found the problem was that it was sparking going over the track joints . Asking Thomas Harding , The Model Railway Doctor he told me what to do and did the job for me and problem solved
Hi John, Do you still have any of the machined smooth/flange wheels? as i could do with at least 2 sets. Thanks
would anyone know how to remove the body from a Hornby Network Southeast railcar. There are 2 screws in the base but the body still will not come off.
+Tom Denny Hi Tom...I don't have this model so can't help here. Have you tried to google it? Cheers, John.
COMMENT CONTINUED . In terms of thickness , distance between the sleepers ETC system six or Standard 100 is in fact HO in scale . Hornby would have had to change to it just to bring themselves in line with the rest of the world , or so I am lead to understand
Hi, my dock shunter hates peco points and just stalls on my double slip! Where can I get new profile wheels?
Hi Mark....I have the re-profiled wheels on Ebay here:
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131262928594?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649
You can also see the results on my TH-cam video here:
Hornby Triang 'Wheel Sets For Your Triang Locos R55/R155/R159/R253/R257/R353/R753 & All Variants'.
Hope that helps? Kind regards, John.
Useful - thank you.
intresting john, heres my dilema , iv used peco 100 concrete sleeper track, with peco medium points in my layout i have 1 large crossing, i have 40 diesel locos, in that lot i have 3 peeks 2 mainline ones and 1 replica , now every loco runs fine over these points nd crossing apart from these 3 peeks, mainline ones the worst, derail all the time at crossing the front wheels go over but the back ones tend to go up the outher way on the crossing, any ideas m8, ....hugh
Hello John and thank you, I've just had my problem solved due to this video. I am building a 00 gauge
garden railway after over 40 years out of the hobby so I have a lot of Triang Hornby stock which obviously jumps, stalls or derails on my new peco code 100 points, if I gently file the raised plastic between the frogs as your video shows I'm sure they will run ok, BUT by doing this will it affect the modern stock that I am now buying? Thank you for posting a very informative video John,
thanks for the info vid very intresting.
Hi I would like to know, where I can fine some, Than'k Canada
I have bought a class 31 early triang hornby of course nobody changed the driving wheels so will not run over Peco 100 points can you help ?
Hi David. OK, the Tri-ang/Hornby class 31's came out the factory with two different size wheel flanges. The early ones had a large flange so they are a problem on modern track. The later ones (also same bogie on the class 37) has the smaller flanges & these are 95% perfect on modern track. Either way & whichever size flanges you have on yours there is a simple fix. The trailing bogie on the later types had pick-ups as well as the power bogie. If yours doesn't have this then just get one from ebay & fit it to your loco. Like this you always have pick-up even if the front flange lifts up a tad over the points! Hope that helps? All the best, John.
thanks John; just bought a load of dcc stuff, do i need a license?, controller or something?
Neil.
Hi buddy. You don't need a license. You say DCC so you will need to get a DCC controller. Just google DCC for model railway & read about it all first. Hope that helps? Cheers, John.
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