When I was a teenager the appendices were my favourite part seemed so mysterious. Great video. Good to remind people that a lot of things were going on in Middle Earth aside from the ring bearer story. This is my favourite video thus far. 😋
This one was a bit spur of the moment. Instead of replying to a comment directly or in the upcoming Appendices video, I just made a video to answer someone's question about the absence of Elves and Dwarves in The War of the Ring. Proof that I do pay attention to your comments! And thanks to everyone watching this War of the Ring video when there's a huge focus on the TV just now with all the videos out there. Alway a worry that content like this will get buried! Support The Red Book: www.patreon.com/theredbook
I love your definition of "spur of the moment video". Others would call it a fully fleshed out video that calls upon an deep understanding of Middle-earth.
That all the events beyond the fellowship are happening is what makes this such an epic tale. The appendices are a reward to the reader for making it through the story and makes the experience all the richer realizing how big the story really was.
Great video! I thirsted for every word Tolkien put to page when I first discovered his works more than 35 years ago. My passion for the world he created hasn't lessened over the years, to the contrary it has only grown stronger.
I'm hoping I am still as enthusastic after so long. I can't imagine not being though :D . Love hearing from the long-term readers. Always an interesting perspective on things - reading Tolkien long before Twitter wars about his works or huge Hollywood adaptations!
@@TheRedBook I feel like Tolkien sowed the seeds of imagination, he took stories from the past like Beowulf, Le Mort de Artur, and The Brothers Grimm and molded the world's into something so vast and real that the edges of that world are incomprehensible. He created lands and languages, people's and beasts, heroes and monsters all telling the neverending tale of good versus evil. He incorporated politics, racial bias and the human condition into a parallel of life that is always relevant. His works are truly timeless. Thanks for giving me a forum to express my humble opinion.
Very well put, hinting at what makes his work timeless and why we all constantly talk about it and discuss it. I've tried many other authors clearly influenced by Tolkien and none of it works for me. I just keep returning to Tolkien and exploring the depths of the world he made. There will still be stuff we're discussing about it decades from now.
Sauron probably had nightmares of the peoples of Middle Earth uniting against him on the borders of Mordor once more, and worked long and hard to make that impossible.
Good stuff, you didn't take Amazon's filthy lucre. I was born in 1952, and first read LOTR in the late '60's. Ordered, and still have, a first hardcover edition of the Silmarillion, which I've just been rereading to get the bad taste of RoP out of my mind. Just subscribed to your channel.
I think I would like the story kept as it is and have even more in the appendices: more about what was happening in Rhún, the Eastern dwarf holds or basically everywhere else outside the narrative.
I'd like that too. I know they weren't a part of the story but I wish Tolkien had maybe dedicated some time to the east or south, some lost scribblings from someone dwelling in those lands about what was going on. Would be great to read how he imagined them.
@@TheRedBook This is exactly how I feel. I think the actual books are just fine in what they are and do, but my hunger is for more from the rest of the world (and some more detail about daily life in Gondor).
@@TheRedBook Isn't there some content about the Easterlings in The Children of Hurin? It's been a long time, but I remember Nienor being a captive and there being some description of them there. Granted, that's the First Age, but it's probably how Tolkien imagined them in the Third Age as well.
Great stuff Steven. I've always wondered why so many people skip the Appendices. I remember reading it for the first time and realising just how many battles were taking place, just how many people had to be involved to give Frodo and Sam their chance at Mount Doom.
I wonder if more would read them if they had a different name? I get a lot of people saying stuff I quote from Letters doesn't matter because "It's not a part of the story". I've even had some say quoting from The Appendices "doesn't count". Strange people...
@@TheRedBook It's puzzling how some people want to disregard so much of what Tolkien wrote. I had an exchange a couple of weeks ago with someone who doesn't consider anything published posthumously valid. That's the vast majority of what Tolkien wrote. I don't get it.
I discovered your channel last week, and I think I’ve seen just about every video since. First one I’m catching live, so to speak. Excellent topic, and presentation is wonderful as always
Good stuff as Ever Steven. I first read the appendices, after I read the book, because it was more words and I didn’t want the book to be over, when I first read the book again I read the appendices more deeply and loved them. Had he written of more of the wider world in the narrative, it would have taken him years. For me what is unsaid and unknown are a vital part of the story, which gives it some of its wonderful depth, so I for one am glad that there was not more. Thanks and keep up the good work.
I can't imagine how he'd work this stuff into the story without it maybe involving another volume? I'm hoping most realise there's a lot of cool stuff in the Appendices and that it deserves its place alongside the story itself.
Thanks for this video. Tolkien's deep religious roots and his visceral understanding of the extent of battles in a true world war infuse the entire legendarium.
@@TheRedBook where do you get less of a hit on your contributions - from ewetoob or from patreon? I heard yt takes 30% but have no idea how much the other takes.
Patreon is around 8%, TH-cam about 30%. Some folks want to support the channel without signing up for Patreon, so that's why the TH-cam membership is there. The three tiers on TH-cam get the same benefits as the three tiers on Patreon and there are a few higher tiers just on Patreon.
Imagine, if JRRT had unlimited time and unwavering passion to expand on almost everything in the appendices and his letters. Not that what we have isnt enough, but had the man continued his process to go into minute detail on the events he only hints at or describes beyond the main story. How wonderful would that be! Im sure these works wouldve been more beautiful than the Silmarils themselves!
@@brendav8967 I had a very good August and half of September has been good. The best so far on the channel. Seems to be dying down again but it was a good period of growth :D
@@TheRedBook Well I hope you keep growing. I love the format and I really love everything about this channel. I'm glad I found it. Have a great weekend!😍
Thanks :) and yeah I just a ran a poll on here to determine what the next episode will be about I'll be working on that and it should be up on Spotify next week.
@@TheRedBook I watch the videos here since I discovered the channel, but found it on Spotify and it’s the kinda of thing I love to hear while I work out lol
Wow! I already knew The War of the Ring encompassed so many fronts and factions, but it simply never struck me just how vast the conflict truly was until this video. I always thought this final conflict of The Third Age was actually quite “small stakes” compared to the 3 Ages before; after all, it only lasted a year. But what a finale to The Elder Days it actually was! Now that I think about it, after abandoning The New Shadow in The Fourth Age, Tolkien should have expanded on The War of the Ring. Like The Silmarillion, a collection of tales from elsewhere throughout Middle-Earth, of The Free Peoples’ struggles!
This underscores how deeply flawed Sauron's overall strategy was. He divided his armies to attack regions that couldn't or wouldn't go on the offensive instead of concentrating his forces to wipe out Gondor in one campaign. After that he could have certainly picked off the others one by one perhaps leaving Lorien for last. This strategy, of course, doesn't take into account the Ringbearer's quest but it would have been the more intelligent war plan.
To be fair, I would assume that armies of orcs still need to eat. Without modern transportation, it would have been impossible to gather such a vast host in a single place without them running out of supplies.
Glad you included that incredible artwork of the Battle of Dale from Weta Workshop, apparently made during the Hobbit movies. In the commentary of the extended edition of the Return of the King, Peter Jackson mentions how he wanted to do a montage sequence showing this battle alongside the Pelennor, but they had of course not designed Erebor/Dale etc having not made the Hobbit first, and that, given time and money constraints, it wouldn't have been worth it. Would've been great just to see Brand, the elderly Dain and those fantastic Easterling designs again.
First off excellent video and topic and I've often wondered these things. Other than reading the books themselves..... I haven't really done much of a reading on the background of Tolkien.... I did read somewhere that he was delayed in his writings.... I'm aware of all of the books that his son put out.... So yeah I think anytime you're putting out a fantasy world that you should put out a fantasy world historical compendium explaining things to a degree so that people can have a better formulation in their minds of what your world is about but this takes more time and effort that maybe most writers don't have and I think a lot of writers don't want to get into that because they really don't want to take the time to create such an in-depth background and of course it is time consuming.... Plus a lot of riders want to create mystery it keeps people wondering so when you're not creating all this background then people are wondering and they're thinking about this and they're thinking about that because most people when reading about history or people's backgrounds or the backgrounds of a country or city they like to see the foundations it gives them depth he gives them security and solidity most people don't like the unknown..... And of course adding appendices helps.... However Tolkien's books leave tons of possibilities for future stories I mean personally and I've never heard anyone talk much about it if at all but I would love for someone eventually to do an entire book on or a series of books on the time the time when the Ainur were coming down upto the War of Utumno and Tulkas...... It would be awesome to see all those thousands of years of Morgoth and his followers taking on and whooping Valar ass..... There could be shown the interpersonal discussions of Melkor talking and wooing other Ainur including Sauron..... You could also show the interworkings of the Valar and their daily struggles and defeats..... Also seeing Eru himself more and also the dark and evil things that are talked about could also be shown in my opinion to come from the void and Siblings of Eru..... Or Eru created first things that became evil and he cast them into the void then later Morgoth finds them on his journey into the void and brings them in or somehow they sneak in by following him back..... So there's an endless array of things that could be shown in these elf free times that even the elves themselves know little about...... These stories could be told by one of the Valar..... Maybe he or she is telling the story to one of the elves..... Or maybe Mando's himself telling these histories to some of the Dead while they wait their judgment..... So yeah wish that there would have been more done I think the best thing for the future with tolkins writings and his story is for other people to add to it and create other unique aspects to the story and to his world I think that gives the ultimate flattery to his work and to his genius is when other geniuses are adding to his work then you have pound for pound one of the greatest of all stories histories mythologies of a fictional work.
I eagerly read the appendices after my first time reading Lord of the Rings and have read them often since then. There are times when Tolkien might have been able to insert a reference to the battles in the north, such as when he was talking with Denethor. Overall though I agree with not making them a significant part of the main story.
I always read A and B after The Lord of the Rings but the rest is really reference material for research, etc. I'm not going to be sitting reading about Calendars before I go to sleep :D
@@TheRedBook you mean lord of grifts. Be glad you were beneath his notice like the hobbits of the shire. You are one of the few loretubers who haven’t fallen In to shadow.
I'm very guilty of skipping the appendices at the time thinking that they were just a place to slap author notes and family trees, the only thing that caught my eye at the time was a page on dwarf runes, I'll have to go through them when I do a re read.
There's certainly a lot of that but Tolkien does put what might interest most people within Appendix A and Appendix B. Those are the must-reads for me any time I read The Lord of the Rings. The rest is interesting but certainly closer to reference material.
My biggest question is about Feanor. Where did he get the weapons for the kinslaying? If the never had to fight against anything why would they have weapons?
Good question Evan. The answer is found in The Silmarillion, and Melkor is to blame (as always) "But to Fingolfin and Finarfin it was said: 'Beware! Small love has the proud son of Míriel ever had for the children of Indis. Now he has become great, and he has his father in his hand. It will not be long before he drives you forth from Túna!' And when Melkor saw that these lies were smouldering, and that pride and anger were awake among the Noldor, he spoke to them concerning weapons; and in that time the Noldor began the smithying of swords and axes and spears. Shields also they made displaying the tokens of many houses and kindreds that vied one with another; and these only they wore abroad, and of other weapons they did not speak, for each believed that he alone had received the warning. And Fëanor made a secret forge, of which not even Melkor was aware; and there he tempered fell swords for himself and for his sons, and made tall helms with plumes of red. Bitterly did Mahtan rue the day when he taught to the husband of Nerdanel all the lore of metalwork that he had learned of Aulë." The Silmarillion - Chapter 7 - Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
It's also likely that Sauron's reach was limited in the east and in the south by distance and geography. If you head east and south, I imagine that you'll eventually enounter realms that aren't firmly allied to Sauron. We know there are two houses of dwarves there, Black Numenoreans, and the elves that refused the summons. I doubt all of these people's were fully under Sauron's control. Doubtless there are other settlements and creatures unknown to the writers of the Red Book. The entwives, other Ainor spirits like the Blue Wizards, and Ungoliant are probably out there for some amojnt of time. Sauron spends centuries in the second and third age where his activities are unknown. It's possible he was at war during these periods in distant lands to the east.
I first read the books when i was 12 and i remember being so confused by certain aspects of the story. I thought sauron must be an elf since he had lived so long and there isnt much explaining the Maiar in the narrative. I do wish he would have given us just a glimpse of Sauron as well during the book but I say all that to make the point that many of the sparse hints and details are what drove me deeper into the story and motivated me to read his other works. Needless to say I was overwhelmed by the depth and scale of the works
A great point Greg K and one I can relate to. When I first read The Lord of the Rings I also thought Sauron was some type of evil Elf. The Maiar aren't mentioned really at all. More of Sauron could be a blessing, or a curse. I like that he's so mysterious and in the background - the looming threat. Though, I like him as a character and more of him in the story would obviously be enjoyable too.
I have a question: Where is Gothmog? He dies in the first age. And being a maiar he should reform/reappear after a while, just like Sauron in the second and third age. Heck, all the balrogs should be back in the third age. Where are they all?
Not necesarily. When an evil being is incarnated and is vanquished, it's quite likely that despite the spirit remaining, it would be so diminished. Sauron was able to return and reform due to the One Ring existing. The Balrogs who were defeated may not have been able to muster the will to reshape.
At one point, Gimli and Legolas discuss how beneficial it would be to have some of their kin defending Minas Tirith and Legolas says something to the effect that they are dealing with war at their own borders.
In the DVD commentary, Peter Jackson and Phillipa Boyens said that they brought the elves to Helm's Deep in the movie to reflect that the conflict involved more than just the Fellowship.
He could have worked these battles into the narrative. The problem with LotR is that it was too short. Giving the big picture with these other battles would have helped.
Wonderful work you keep on doing, i cherish and appreciate it! I didn't want to add a complicated question on your already long list but i have been wondering the following. What happens when an orc dies? We know that they are corrupted elves ensnared long ago by Morgoth's malice and torture when the world was young. It is known that when an Elf dies, he goes to halls of Mandos only to return later to Arda if they deserve and desire because their fate is tied to it so long as the world exist,so shall elves. Does the death of an orc release him from his worldly corruption because there is healing and forgiveness in Aman, or does the corruption and evil taints their very souls, making them eternally irredeemable and unforgivable. The Valar gave pardon to Morgoth and many others of the children of Illuvitar. What fate awaits the Orcs? Thank you in advance and i apologize for the burden.
Thanks Stephen, I like how you didn't want to add a complicated question but then may have asked one of the most complicated questions. You might be interested in my video "How long do Orcs live" and maybe my other video "What happened to Orcs in the Fourth Age". For your main question, this is something I have on my to-do list and I can't really answer it in a comment section. It's very complicated and doesn't even have a definitive answer - a lot of speculation and thoughts taken from different times in Tolkien's writings. I won't ignore it though and hope this will become a video.
I wish Tolkien had written more about the rings of power. What i find distressing is, why would Sauron want three of the Seven Rings of the Dwarf Lords back? And apparently he did nothing with them. (I know he offered to return these three to the Dwarves for that 'least of trinkets' he desired.) The 'bonus material' narrative about the last of the Seven Rings is quite interesting.
A lot of this is to do with Sauron's personality: his entitlement, ego, and pride. Even though the Dwarves hoarded new wealth, they suffered under these rings. Yet, they couldn't fade and couldn't be dominated. This meant Sauron saw them as using these rings to just pile up their gold and increase the strength of their empires all without benefit directly to him. This wouldn't do and he would want them returned. No one else can benefit from them (even with hardship) if Sauron does not benefit from them - that's what he's like.
My video request- an examination and comparison of the Girdle of Melian, the power of Galadriel that protected Lothlorien “more than the bows of the elves”, and the resistance that Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas felt impeding them as they tracked the orcs to rescue Merry and Pippin. Seems to me that all were of the same nature. Thanks,
I think this could have been part of a series where Tokein fleshed-out the stories in the Appendices. The stories of the wars of The Elves and the Dwarves, would have fit in as supplemental books to the Lord of the Rings, or as extra books in The Lord of the Rings, an extended edition. Remember that the Lord of the rings was six separate books. The story of these wars would be extra books slided in among the six. Although that may have been too much of a good thing.
Can you do a video of Eriador during the War of the Ring or at least theories? I think Lotro did a pretty good job by giving Eriador a big purpose in preventing evil from rising there where it could've done a fatal blow to those resisting Sauron in the east. I liked how characters in Lotro are a bunch of nobodies with different backgrounds that just get dragged into the conflict due to them being capable fighters, and the situation being just as dire. I mean player characters face horrors that are serving Angmar and some of those horrors like the gaunt men and Merrevail (harpy women) survived past the 1st Age by hiding until the Witch King demands their service. I find it fascinating since Eriador after the fall of Arnor is left as a blank page where he may have been planning on writing a different story.
Nice to see a fair bit of non-movie inspired art in this vid. Much as I love the Peter Jackson trilogy, I feel it has squashed the creativity of many Tolkien artists. I am kind of sick of seeing the movie actors' faces in the artwork of Tolkien TH-cam Videos, and of the general art style of the movies being so prevalent (in the architecture, armour, and the fact that movie Witch King and Movie Sauron seem to have completely monopolised the art scene).
Definitely! It's something I've lamented for a long time. I remember years back trying to look up fanart of the Balrog, Minas Morgul, Durin's Tower, the winged steeds of the Nazgul, etc. and having to sift through page after page after page of movie fanart before finally finding material based on the book's descriptions. In fact that's how I first discovered Roger Garland and his depiction of Minas Morgul. I received a book of Tolkien fanart for my birthday a few months ago, and it's incredible; it was published in 1992, which means no movie influence (well, okay, so John Howe and Alan Lee are in there, but this was pre-PJ at any rate).
I have alway appreciated the appendices. They added so much depth to the story. What I appreciated most was knowing what happened to the members of the fellowship. What is the bit of lore you most appreciate being included in the appendices?
My favorite adaptations of the War in the North are the video games Battle for Middle-earth II and the mod The Last Days for Mount & Blade Warband. The game actually titled "War in the North," on the other hand, is okay but not as fun to replay.
I don't think that it would have been wise to add the other conflicts and events of the dwarves and elves, because this would have bogged down the already taxed pacing of the story. I remembered how anticlimactic the war of Hobbiton was for me when I read it. I fear that adding other side narratives would do the same. Slog the storyline. As far as the appendices are concerned; through channels like this one I have become convinced that I need to read those fully this time around and that I did myself a disservice before by not reading them all. 🙂
He couldve given us one single detail about the Avari. That wouldve been nice. Its so tantalizing. Im jealous of people who could just write to him back in the day asking for elucidation on these things and possibly maybe even get a letter back.
Can't imagine what it would have been like to receive a letter back, an answer to some question that no one else had asked yet. It's one reason I love the Letters so much.
@@TheRedBook I bet in a few centuries there will be scholars who question whether JRR Tolkien was even one man or a collective name for a number of different authors, like Homer. They'll start to doubt one man could possibly have come up with the Legendarium of Arda all on his own.
I want to know why it never crossed Denethors mind to pursue his own alliances in the East and South to counter Sauron. Maybe he couldve used Gondor's wealth to hand out bribes or hire mercenaries. I think thats what I would do in that impossible position: take a page from the Byzantine Emperors. Of course, that might not be possible when your opponent can reasonably (from the perspective of the men of darkness) claim to be a God-king on earth, with strange powers and armies of monstrosities.
It would have been a disaster aesthetically to have tried to fit all of these different narratives into the one narrative that exists. We wouldn't care about these other conflicts because we wouldn't care about the fate of those fighting them as we do the fate of the fellowship members. The beauty of LOTR is that it tells a mythic tale and yet we care about the personal fate of these members. Tolkien drew them so beautifully and invested each of them with enough idiosyncrasies so as to make them personable to and knowable by us.
I love the abundance of different spellings of Phil's last name that pop up in comments 😅 . Lothlorien is a terrific chapter in tha Audiobook - really nice use of music.
@@TheRedBooklol.yes . The music audio effects are so well done , onec you listen to it any other version is terrible. Like the music and fire noise in shadow of the past , perfect.
I am not as well read into the annals and tales and letters, although I didn't stop even in the first reading until I had digested the appendices. It seems to me that although there was indeed a much wider and greater war, Tolkien himself must have chosen to tell the tale of the ascent of man into his rightful stewardship of Middle Earth as the inheritors after the defeat of Sauron for indeed in this telling the destruction of the one ring was at the centre of the tale, and the pivotal deeds leading to the greater victory. The publishers being eager for another great tale probably by their pressure on the Author led him to choose to focus on the primary tale. or it would have been far too long in the telling.
Tolkien definitely could have worked more of these tales into the Lord of the Rings but I believe he didn’t do so for the same reasons I wouldn’t. In terms of the narrative they are irrelevant.
When I was a teenager the appendices were my favourite part seemed so mysterious. Great video. Good to remind people that a lot of things were going on in Middle Earth aside from the ring bearer story. This is my favourite video thus far. 😋
The Lord of the Rings being more than The Lord of the Rings :D favourite video until...the next one!
I couldn't agree. After reading the appendices I frenetically searched other Tolkien's books.
@@karldehaut The Lost Tales, I believe that there are 10 volumes. One of my favourites is The Children of Hurin, that's a riveting read.
@@sebastianjosephmarkjones9332 Yes it's great ! The fall of Numenor is also good story!
I loved the appendices too!!! 🖤🖤
This one was a bit spur of the moment. Instead of replying to a comment directly or in the upcoming Appendices video, I just made a video to answer someone's question about the absence of Elves and Dwarves in The War of the Ring. Proof that I do pay attention to your comments!
And thanks to everyone watching this War of the Ring video when there's a huge focus on the TV just now with all the videos out there. Alway a worry that content like this will get buried!
Support The Red Book: www.patreon.com/theredbook
And to great result!
I love your definition of "spur of the moment video". Others would call it a fully fleshed out video that calls upon an deep understanding of Middle-earth.
Oh, I wouldn't go as far as that :D I assume anyone who has read The Appendices would know this stuff but I like answering questions people have!
That all the events beyond the fellowship are happening is what makes this such an epic tale. The appendices are a reward to the reader for making it through the story and makes the experience all the richer realizing how big the story really was.
My thoughts exactly.
Great video! I thirsted for every word Tolkien put to page when I first discovered his works more than 35 years ago. My passion for the world he created hasn't lessened over the years, to the contrary it has only grown stronger.
I'm hoping I am still as enthusastic after so long. I can't imagine not being though :D . Love hearing from the long-term readers. Always an interesting perspective on things - reading Tolkien long before Twitter wars about his works or huge Hollywood adaptations!
@@TheRedBook I feel like Tolkien sowed the seeds of imagination, he took stories from the past like Beowulf, Le Mort de Artur, and The Brothers Grimm and molded the world's into something so vast and real that the edges of that world are incomprehensible. He created lands and languages, people's and beasts, heroes and monsters all telling the neverending tale of good versus evil. He incorporated politics, racial bias and the human condition into a parallel of life that is always relevant. His works are truly timeless. Thanks for giving me a forum to express my humble opinion.
Very well put, hinting at what makes his work timeless and why we all constantly talk about it and discuss it. I've tried many other authors clearly influenced by Tolkien and none of it works for me. I just keep returning to Tolkien and exploring the depths of the world he made. There will still be stuff we're discussing about it decades from now.
You must be loving Tolkien’s increasing popularity as more & more fans are drawn to his work.
Sauron probably had nightmares of the peoples of Middle Earth uniting against him on the borders of Mordor once more, and worked long and hard to make that impossible.
You are right. Divide and conquer - anything but hope would be beneficial to him.
Good stuff, you didn't take Amazon's filthy lucre. I was born in 1952, and first read LOTR in the late '60's. Ordered, and still have, a first hardcover edition of the Silmarillion, which I've just been rereading to get the bad taste of RoP out of my mind. Just subscribed to your channel.
I think I would like the story kept as it is and have even more in the appendices: more about what was happening in Rhún, the Eastern dwarf holds or basically everywhere else outside the narrative.
I'd like that too. I know they weren't a part of the story but I wish Tolkien had maybe dedicated some time to the east or south, some lost scribblings from someone dwelling in those lands about what was going on. Would be great to read how he imagined them.
@@TheRedBook This is exactly how I feel. I think the actual books are just fine in what they are and do, but my hunger is for more from the rest of the world (and some more detail about daily life in Gondor).
@@TheRedBook Isn't there some content about the Easterlings in The Children of Hurin? It's been a long time, but I remember Nienor being a captive and there being some description of them there. Granted, that's the First Age, but it's probably how Tolkien imagined them in the Third Age as well.
Great stuff Steven. I've always wondered why so many people skip the Appendices. I remember reading it for the first time and realising just how many battles were taking place, just how many people had to be involved to give Frodo and Sam their chance at Mount Doom.
I wonder if more would read them if they had a different name? I get a lot of people saying stuff I quote from Letters doesn't matter because "It's not a part of the story". I've even had some say quoting from The Appendices "doesn't count". Strange people...
@@TheRedBook It's puzzling how some people want to disregard so much of what Tolkien wrote. I had an exchange a couple of weeks ago with someone who doesn't consider anything published posthumously valid. That's the vast majority of what Tolkien wrote. I don't get it.
Dammit, I just noticed that my german Translation from 1999 has no Appendices. I didn't knew they where supposed to be there.
I discovered your channel last week, and I think I’ve seen just about every video since. First one I’m catching live, so to speak. Excellent topic, and presentation is wonderful as always
Happy you have found the channel, it's been growing nicely in the last few weeks :D . Thanks!
Good stuff as Ever Steven. I first read the appendices, after I read the book, because it was more words and I didn’t want the book to be over, when I first read the book again I read the appendices more deeply and loved them. Had he written of more of the wider world in the narrative, it would have taken him years. For me what is unsaid and unknown are a vital part of the story, which gives it some of its wonderful depth, so I for one am glad that there was not more. Thanks and keep up the good work.
I can't imagine how he'd work this stuff into the story without it maybe involving another volume? I'm hoping most realise there's a lot of cool stuff in the Appendices and that it deserves its place alongside the story itself.
This channel deserves way more views. Keep up the great videos.🙏 For the algorithm.
I agree, I'd like even more views :D . More views leads to more comments, more discussions, and more content!
Thanks for this video. Tolkien's deep religious roots and his visceral understanding of the extent of battles in a true world war infuse the entire legendarium.
Very welcome Catherine :) I like the use of the word visceral, I completely agree!
@@TheRedBook having been fighting in the trenches during WW1 is kinda the definition of visceral, isn't it?
@@TheRedBook where do you get less of a hit on your contributions - from ewetoob or from patreon? I heard yt takes 30% but have no idea how much the other takes.
Patreon is around 8%, TH-cam about 30%. Some folks want to support the channel without signing up for Patreon, so that's why the TH-cam membership is there. The three tiers on TH-cam get the same benefits as the three tiers on Patreon and there are a few higher tiers just on Patreon.
@@TheRedBook thank you!
Imagine, if JRRT had unlimited time and unwavering passion to expand on almost everything in the appendices and his letters. Not that what we have isnt enough, but had the man continued his process to go into minute detail on the events he only hints at or describes beyond the main story. How wonderful would that be! Im sure these works wouldve been more beautiful than the Silmarils themselves!
It is a shame when you think about it, just how much we didn't get to read. But what we got is timeless anyway!
If Tolkien's theology is correct, there might indeed be more books.
New subscriber here! I'm really really enjoying this channel. Keep up the good work!💕
Thank you Brenda for the support :D
@@TheRedBook This channel is so underrated I hope you keep growing!💕
@@brendav8967 I had a very good August and half of September has been good. The best so far on the channel. Seems to be dying down again but it was a good period of growth :D
@@TheRedBook Well I hope you keep growing. I love the format and I really love everything about this channel. I'm glad I found it. Have a great weekend!😍
Love the videos, gotta ask are you put more episodes in Spotify?
Thanks :) and yeah I just a ran a poll on here to determine what the next episode will be about I'll be working on that and it should be up on Spotify next week.
@@TheRedBook I watch the videos here since I discovered the channel, but found it on Spotify and it’s the kinda of thing I love to hear while I work out lol
3:01 Barliman Butterbur really gets around, doesn't he?
He is The One after all. He works in mysterious ways!
thank you great video as always very detailed and i love it because im always learning more
Very welcome :D
Wow! I already knew The War of the Ring encompassed so many fronts and factions, but it simply never struck me just how vast the conflict truly was until this video. I always thought this final conflict of The Third Age was actually quite “small stakes” compared to the 3 Ages before; after all, it only lasted a year. But what a finale to The Elder Days it actually was!
Now that I think about it, after abandoning The New Shadow in The Fourth Age, Tolkien should have expanded on The War of the Ring. Like The Silmarillion, a collection of tales from elsewhere throughout Middle-Earth, of The Free Peoples’ struggles!
A good idea. I'd certainly love to read about the conflict against Sauron from the perspective of other kindreds in Middle-earth.
Recently followed your channel, and you have such great videos. Excellent information, and great narration and pacing. Just want to say thanks!
Happy you found the channel! Thanks for this comment :D
Just watched it Steven before I start my shift and I can say I wasnt disappointed
😉👍
That's cool :D
@@TheRedBook
Steven. You, men of the west, and Dave aka Tolkien Untangled have integrity.
That's why I repeatedly anticipate when you all upload
😁
This is a great video, and really well told
This underscores how deeply flawed Sauron's overall strategy was. He divided his armies to attack regions that couldn't or wouldn't go on the offensive instead of concentrating his forces to wipe out Gondor in one campaign. After that he could have certainly picked off the others one by one perhaps leaving Lorien for last. This strategy, of course, doesn't take into account the Ringbearer's quest but it would have been the more intelligent war plan.
To be fair, I would assume that armies of orcs still need to eat. Without modern transportation, it would have been impossible to gather such a vast host in a single place without them running out of supplies.
Will have to watch this in the morning mate but I always enjoy 😊👍
Glad you included that incredible artwork of the Battle of Dale from Weta Workshop, apparently made during the Hobbit movies. In the commentary of the extended edition of the Return of the King, Peter Jackson mentions how he wanted to do a montage sequence showing this battle alongside the Pelennor, but they had of course not designed Erebor/Dale etc having not made the Hobbit first, and that, given time and money constraints, it wouldn't have been worth it. Would've been great just to see Brand, the elderly Dain and those fantastic Easterling designs again.
It was vastly faught by Elves of Lorien and Mirkwood. The Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain beside the men of Dale deserve a show in its own!!!
First off excellent video and topic and I've often wondered these things.
Other than reading the books themselves..... I haven't really done much of a reading on the background of Tolkien.... I did read somewhere that he was delayed in his writings.... I'm aware of all of the books that his son put out....
So yeah I think anytime you're putting out a fantasy world that you should put out a fantasy world historical compendium explaining things to a degree so that people can have a better formulation in their minds of what your world is about but this takes more time and effort that maybe most writers don't have and I think a lot of writers don't want to get into that because they really don't want to take the time to create such an in-depth background and of course it is time consuming.... Plus a lot of riders want to create mystery it keeps people wondering so when you're not creating all this background then people are wondering and they're thinking about this and they're thinking about that because most people when reading about history or people's backgrounds or the backgrounds of a country or city they like to see the foundations it gives them depth he gives them security and solidity most people don't like the unknown..... And of course adding appendices helps.... However Tolkien's books leave tons of possibilities for future stories I mean personally and I've never heard anyone talk much about it if at all but I would love for someone eventually to do an entire book on or a series of books on the time the time when the Ainur were coming down upto the War of Utumno and Tulkas...... It would be awesome to see all those thousands of years of Morgoth and his followers taking on and whooping Valar ass..... There could be shown the interpersonal discussions of Melkor talking and wooing other Ainur including Sauron..... You could also show the interworkings of the Valar and their daily struggles and defeats..... Also seeing Eru himself more and also the dark and evil things that are talked about could also be shown in my opinion to come from the void and Siblings of Eru..... Or Eru created first things that became evil and he cast them into the void then later Morgoth finds them on his journey into the void and brings them in or somehow they sneak in by following him back..... So there's an endless array of things that could be shown in these elf free times that even the elves themselves know little about...... These stories could be told by one of the Valar..... Maybe he or she is telling the story to one of the elves..... Or maybe Mando's himself telling these histories to some of the Dead while they wait their judgment..... So yeah wish that there would have been more done I think the best thing for the future with tolkins writings and his story is for other people to add to it and create other unique aspects to the story and to his world I think that gives the ultimate flattery to his work and to his genius is when other geniuses are adding to his work then you have pound for pound one of the greatest of all stories histories mythologies of a fictional work.
I eagerly read the appendices after my first time reading Lord of the Rings and have read them often since then. There are times when Tolkien might have been able to insert a reference to the battles in the north, such as when he was talking with Denethor. Overall though I agree with not making them a significant part of the main story.
I always read A and B after The Lord of the Rings but the rest is really reference material for research, etc. I'm not going to be sitting reading about Calendars before I go to sleep :D
I’ve been looking for a new Tolkein lore channel since most of those I followed took the rings offered by Amazon. Looks like I’ve finally found it.
Bezos, Lord of Gifts, didn't even offer me a ring to turn down!
@@TheRedBook you mean lord of grifts.
Be glad you were beneath his notice like the hobbits of the shire. You are one of the few loretubers who haven’t fallen In to shadow.
I'm very guilty of skipping the appendices at the time thinking that they were just a place to slap author notes and family trees, the only thing that caught my eye at the time was a page on dwarf runes, I'll have to go through them when I do a re read.
They have full blown stories and narratives. Theyre so rich,youve been missing out bigtime.
There's certainly a lot of that but Tolkien does put what might interest most people within Appendix A and Appendix B. Those are the must-reads for me any time I read The Lord of the Rings. The rest is interesting but certainly closer to reference material.
My biggest question is about Feanor. Where did he get the weapons for the kinslaying? If the never had to fight against anything why would they have weapons?
Good question Evan. The answer is found in The Silmarillion, and Melkor is to blame (as always)
"But to Fingolfin and Finarfin it was said: 'Beware! Small love has the proud son of Míriel ever had for the children of Indis. Now he has become great, and he has his father in his hand. It will not be long before he drives you forth from Túna!'
And when Melkor saw that these lies were smouldering, and that pride and anger were awake among the Noldor, he spoke to them concerning weapons; and in that time the Noldor began the smithying of swords and axes and spears. Shields also they made displaying the tokens of many houses and kindreds that vied one with another; and these only they wore abroad, and of other weapons they did not speak, for each believed that he alone had received the warning. And Fëanor made a secret forge, of which not even Melkor was aware; and there he tempered fell swords for himself and for his sons, and made tall helms with plumes of red. Bitterly did Mahtan rue the day when he taught to the husband of Nerdanel all the lore of metalwork that he had learned of Aulë."
The Silmarillion - Chapter 7 - Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
@@TheRedBook awesome thank you.
It's also likely that Sauron's reach was limited in the east and in the south by distance and geography. If you head east and south, I imagine that you'll eventually enounter realms that aren't firmly allied to Sauron. We know there are two houses of dwarves there, Black Numenoreans, and the elves that refused the summons. I doubt all of these people's were fully under Sauron's control. Doubtless there are other settlements and creatures unknown to the writers of the Red Book. The entwives, other Ainor spirits like the Blue Wizards, and Ungoliant are probably out there for some amojnt of time. Sauron spends centuries in the second and third age where his activities are unknown. It's possible he was at war during these periods in distant lands to the east.
I first read the books when i was 12 and i remember being so confused by certain aspects of the story. I thought sauron must be an elf since he had lived so long and there isnt much explaining the Maiar in the narrative. I do wish he would have given us just a glimpse of Sauron as well during the book but I say all that to make the point that many of the sparse hints and details are what drove me deeper into the story and motivated me to read his other works. Needless to say I was overwhelmed by the depth and scale of the works
A great point Greg K and one I can relate to. When I first read The Lord of the Rings I also thought Sauron was some type of evil Elf. The Maiar aren't mentioned really at all. More of Sauron could be a blessing, or a curse. I like that he's so mysterious and in the background - the looming threat. Though, I like him as a character and more of him in the story would obviously be enjoyable too.
I have a question: Where is Gothmog? He dies in the first age. And being a maiar he should reform/reappear after a while, just like Sauron in the second and third age. Heck, all the balrogs should be back in the third age. Where are they all?
Not necesarily. When an evil being is incarnated and is vanquished, it's quite likely that despite the spirit remaining, it would be so diminished. Sauron was able to return and reform due to the One Ring existing. The Balrogs who were defeated may not have been able to muster the will to reshape.
At one point, Gimli and Legolas discuss how beneficial it would be to have some of their kin defending Minas Tirith and Legolas says something to the effect that they are dealing with war at their own borders.
Very true, a small hint towards a much wider conflict.
In the DVD commentary, Peter Jackson and Phillipa Boyens said that they brought the elves to Helm's Deep in the movie to reflect that the conflict involved more than just the Fellowship.
@@9Dunk Interesting. While I always hated the insertion of Elves at Helms Deep, at least there was a reason.
He could have worked these battles into the narrative. The problem with LotR is that it was too short. Giving the big picture with these other battles would have helped.
I'd probably still say The Lord of the Rings was too short if it had 6 volumes!
Wonderful work you keep on doing, i cherish and appreciate it! I didn't want to add a complicated question on your already long list but i have been wondering the following.
What happens when an orc dies?
We know that they are corrupted elves ensnared long ago by Morgoth's malice and torture when the world was young. It is known that when an Elf dies, he goes to halls of Mandos only to return later to Arda if they deserve and desire because their fate is tied to it so long as the world exist,so shall elves. Does the death of an orc release him from his worldly corruption because there is healing and forgiveness in Aman, or does the corruption and evil taints their very souls, making them eternally irredeemable and unforgivable. The Valar gave pardon to Morgoth and many others of the children of Illuvitar. What fate awaits the Orcs? Thank you in advance and i apologize for the burden.
Thanks Stephen, I like how you didn't want to add a complicated question but then may have asked one of the most complicated questions. You might be interested in my video "How long do Orcs live" and maybe my other video "What happened to Orcs in the Fourth Age". For your main question, this is something I have on my to-do list and I can't really answer it in a comment section. It's very complicated and doesn't even have a definitive answer - a lot of speculation and thoughts taken from different times in Tolkien's writings. I won't ignore it though and hope this will become a video.
I remember Frodo's vision, showing him the breadth and scope of the war, the strife encompassing all the free peoples..
I wish Tolkien had written more about the rings of power. What i find distressing is, why would Sauron want three of the Seven Rings of the Dwarf Lords back? And apparently he did nothing with them. (I know he offered to return these three to the Dwarves for that 'least of trinkets' he desired.)
The 'bonus material' narrative about the last of the Seven Rings is quite interesting.
A lot of this is to do with Sauron's personality: his entitlement, ego, and pride. Even though the Dwarves hoarded new wealth, they suffered under these rings. Yet, they couldn't fade and couldn't be dominated. This meant Sauron saw them as using these rings to just pile up their gold and increase the strength of their empires all without benefit directly to him. This wouldn't do and he would want them returned. No one else can benefit from them (even with hardship) if Sauron does not benefit from them - that's what he's like.
Thanks!
Much appreciated :D thanks Connor.
No problem 😊
My video request- an examination and comparison of the Girdle of Melian, the power of Galadriel that protected Lothlorien “more than the bows of the elves”, and the resistance that Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas felt impeding them as they tracked the orcs to rescue Merry and Pippin. Seems to me that all were of the same nature.
Thanks,
I think this could have been part of a series where Tokein fleshed-out the stories in the Appendices. The stories of the wars of The Elves and the Dwarves, would have fit in as supplemental books to the Lord of the Rings, or as extra books in The Lord of the Rings, an extended edition. Remember that the Lord of the rings was six separate books. The story of these wars would be extra books slided in among the six. Although that may have been too much of a good thing.
Can you do a video of Eriador during the War of the Ring or at least theories? I think Lotro did a pretty good job by giving Eriador a big purpose in preventing evil from rising there where it could've done a fatal blow to those resisting Sauron in the east. I liked how characters in Lotro are a bunch of nobodies with different backgrounds that just get dragged into the conflict due to them being capable fighters, and the situation being just as dire. I mean player characters face horrors that are serving Angmar and some of those horrors like the gaunt men and Merrevail (harpy women) survived past the 1st Age by hiding until the Witch King demands their service. I find it fascinating since Eriador after the fall of Arnor is left as a blank page where he may have been planning on writing a different story.
After the rangers leave to accompany Aragorn, Saruman's agents conquer the Shire and attempt to conquer Bree. No need for theories.
I think it's fair to say the appendices are pretty important given how much is implied through the narrator and the characters when they speak.
I already know the answer but I have a feeling there’s gonna be something good in here anyway plus I want to boost you for the algorithm. ;)
Nice to see a fair bit of non-movie inspired art in this vid. Much as I love the Peter Jackson trilogy, I feel it has squashed the creativity of many Tolkien artists. I am kind of sick of seeing the movie actors' faces in the artwork of Tolkien TH-cam Videos, and of the general art style of the movies being so prevalent (in the architecture, armour, and the fact that movie Witch King and Movie Sauron seem to have completely monopolised the art scene).
Definitely! It's something I've lamented for a long time. I remember years back trying to look up fanart of the Balrog, Minas Morgul, Durin's Tower, the winged steeds of the Nazgul, etc. and having to sift through page after page after page of movie fanart before finally finding material based on the book's descriptions. In fact that's how I first discovered Roger Garland and his depiction of Minas Morgul.
I received a book of Tolkien fanart for my birthday a few months ago, and it's incredible; it was published in 1992, which means no movie influence (well, okay, so John Howe and Alan Lee are in there, but this was pre-PJ at any rate).
Certainty of death
Small chance of success
What are we waiting for ..
More importantly: where was Gondor when the Westfold fell?
Great video
I have alway appreciated the appendices. They added so much depth to the story. What I appreciated most was knowing what happened to the members of the fellowship. What is the bit of lore you most appreciate being included in the appendices?
Great point Joseph and great question. I will answer this for you in the Appendices video at the end of the month.
Cool! I look forward to it!
My favorite adaptations of the War in the North are the video games Battle for Middle-earth II and the mod The Last Days for Mount & Blade Warband.
The game actually titled "War in the North," on the other hand, is okay but not as fun to replay.
Yes, and finally the Silmarillion was published...that was exciting times.
I don't think that it would have been wise to add the other conflicts and events of the dwarves and elves, because this would have bogged down the already taxed pacing of the story. I remembered how anticlimactic the war of Hobbiton was for me when I read it. I fear that adding other side narratives would do the same. Slog the storyline.
As far as the appendices are concerned; through channels like this one I have become convinced that I need to read those fully this time around and that I did myself a disservice before by not reading them all. 🙂
Best channel
He couldve given us one single detail about the Avari. That wouldve been nice. Its so tantalizing. Im jealous of people who could just write to him back in the day asking for elucidation on these things and possibly maybe even get a letter back.
Can't imagine what it would have been like to receive a letter back, an answer to some question that no one else had asked yet. It's one reason I love the Letters so much.
@@TheRedBook I bet in a few centuries there will be scholars who question whether JRR Tolkien was even one man or a collective name for a number of different authors, like Homer. They'll start to doubt one man could possibly have come up with the Legendarium of Arda all on his own.
I want to know why it never crossed Denethors mind to pursue his own alliances in the East and South to counter Sauron. Maybe he couldve used Gondor's wealth to hand out bribes or hire mercenaries. I think thats what I would do in that impossible position: take a page from the Byzantine Emperors. Of course, that might not be possible when your opponent can reasonably (from the perspective of the men of darkness) claim to be a God-king on earth, with strange powers and armies of monstrosities.
It would have been a disaster aesthetically to have tried to fit all of these different narratives into the one narrative that exists. We wouldn't care about these other conflicts because we wouldn't care about the fate of those fighting them as we do the fate of the fellowship members. The beauty of LOTR is that it tells a mythic tale and yet we care about the personal fate of these members. Tolkien drew them so beautifully and invested each of them with enough idiosyncrasies so as to make them personable to and knowable by us.
Fighting in dale the lonley mtn. Lothlorien and mirkwood
👍💯great job
Btw im currently listing to the audiobook ( phil daglesh) again. Just got to loth lorian . .
I love the abundance of different spellings of Phil's last name that pop up in comments 😅 . Lothlorien is a terrific chapter in tha Audiobook - really nice use of music.
@@TheRedBooklol.yes . The music audio effects are so well done , onec you listen to it any other version is terrible. Like the music and fire noise in shadow of the past , perfect.
@@TheRedBook lol dragash . Brain fart
How is Sauron known as the necromancer I mean I read the books, but I still never understood that
One cannot but wonder why Amazon , having the right to the appendices, hasn't done this part -it would have been awesome!
I am not as well read into the annals and tales and letters, although I didn't stop even in the first reading until I had digested the appendices. It seems to me that although there was indeed a much wider and greater war, Tolkien himself must have chosen to tell the tale of the ascent of man into his rightful stewardship of Middle Earth as the inheritors after the defeat of Sauron for indeed in this telling the destruction of the one ring was at the centre of the tale, and the pivotal deeds leading to the greater victory.
The publishers being eager for another great tale probably by their pressure on the Author led him to choose to focus on the primary tale. or it would have been far too long in the telling.
Cheers.
I wonder how JRR would feel if he knew how Amazon has used his Appendices to make their Rings of Power series?
And then to add insult to injury, they didn't even use the appendices they obtained the rights for.
I think a little if it should have been mentioned. Especially in the Trilogy of Peter Jackson.
Cant watch the live streams? I'm NOT special... I'm good LOL. Keep doing you.
What do you mean?
The short answer. 'They were in decline'.
Tolkien definitely could have worked more of these tales into the Lord of the Rings but I believe he didn’t do so for the same reasons I wouldn’t. In terms of the narrative they are irrelevant.
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DWARVES
Maybe they were at yo mommas house? Huh? You thought about that ey? Maybe they were at yo mommas house....
Thanks!
Very kind of you David, thanks a lot!