Nah bro the title, thumbnail and the wild use of the word pretentious makes me think this whole vid is either just the lowest form of fandom bait or a youtuber actually being pretentious by trying to have the most "le BASED" take out there 💀. "Without love, it (the truth) cannot be seen" simply means that if you approach a situation without 'love' - without good faith and belief in the goodness of the people involved, and without an open mind - then often you will see that situation as being colder, darker, and more hopeless than if you had approached it otherwise. I'm convinced this 100+ hour story is designed to be the ultimate litmus test for media literacy.
Yeah I feel you missed the point of the goats. It wasn't a jab at being caring too much about the mystery side of the story so much as people wanting to be spoonfed the answers without deducing it through the question arcs and coming to understanding the nature of truth and how the deconstruction of truth in the later episodes helps to recontextualize your understanding of events in the previous episodes. I'm pretty sure it was intended for readers to go back and re-read episodes 1-4 to come to the same conclusions Will did in episode 7. Also for someone who said they understood the magic scene's and how they we're contexualized you think you'd get that Lambda being the Witch of Certainty and you know supporting humans who believe in her would tell you the reason she is fighting Bern represents Battler and Ange's desire for a "good" ending at least regards to the book of single truth and not having people aka goat's revel in the suffering of the Ushiromiya massacre and what happens so they can keep theorizing disregarding Ange's real world involvement and how it affects her and the memories of those who died. The representative aspect in the meta context still works because of that. Saying that I do believe that the Manga does aspects of Episode 8 better though it comes at the cost of revealing everything it does point out how Battler's intention being good doesn't exact work as intended with regards to Ange and if he had just told her and had more trust without using too much magic for the message he wanted to send her, Ange probably could've moved on. I firmly disagree with the ending being pretentious though and the idea of Virtue signalling. The VN has already established the notion of Truth not being a clear cut objective thing that is easily defined which is why the heart of the story is more important. Magic is less not acknowledging the truth but understanding it and choosing to believe hope for the future to move on. Trick involves searching for a truth that doesn't exist because nobody can truly know everything that happened, even Eva's Book of Single truth is unlikely to be a completely unequivocally unbiased recollection of events. Ange would literally be searching for an answer that doesn't exist and the spend of her life miserably searching for it. Having the message of understanding the reasons why people do things and how multiple truths can exist in tandem isn't signaling about how good of a person you are so much as having empathy for the people within the story inspite of them being flawed. You say the theme was hammered in, but honestly it felt like you completely missed the nuance of the VN and theme it had hammered throughout the entire thing. Ironically, a lot of the VN scene's that aren't meta battles between Beatrice and Battler actually spell out the bigger picture if you look at the VN with more of the heart/motive of the character. The notion of belief is hugely integral to the story after all. It's only reason red truth works at all since the reader needs to have faith in the rules of the game aka the mystery for it to work.
Gotta love how the people that say the VN is repetitive are the ones that didnt get it. Umineko got a lot of concepts that are hard to understand even if its repeated over and ovrr.
@@weeecalango2761 then tell us the point if you so smart. you ryukushi fanboys are so boring, like everytime when someone has diffrent opinion or view on story, or help God dosnt like Battler, or beatrice (yasu) you go out and say : hE MISseD THe poInT : HE'S a TRolL : hE HaveN'T ReaD MidneKo Erika was the only one right.
@@Perskan. So, theres a comment of mine pointing the major things the video got wrong about chapter 8. Basically, umineko is not a normal mistery story. Its a battle between mystery and fantasy genre. In a way Erika was right however, thats not the point of the story, and she wasnt even completely right either. The people who say Erika was right usually read it while considering all the magic stuff as skipable bs, and thats not the case. Its hard to explain, but basically, neither side of the game could win. Thats why Bern was 'the final villain' despite siding with Battler the whole story, and thats why Lambda surprisingly sides with Battler in the end. I dont see many people talking about this. You see, the games between Bern and Lambda involves Lambda creating a inescapable maze where Bern is sure to loose and Bern repeats it untill she manages to create a miracle and escape. It was the same in Higurashi. Bern is the witch of miracles and Lambda is the witch of certainity. So, Lambda is actually satisfied with keeping the game going forever, while Bern has to win. Thats why Bern calls for Ange when she turns against Battler. The truth is, she realised Battler was STALLING and wanted to end it, having Ange finding the single truth. Battler was stalling because at some point he realised that his victory would be the end of his world, which is the story itself. If you pay attention youll notice chapter 8 is all about avoiding a conclusion/the end of the story. His world is a battle between fiction and reality. Like in taoism, our world is a battle between light and darkness. For anything to exist, those to must be present. Like how you cant see anything in total darkness, but you also cant see anything in total bright light. Shapes, things only show(exist) in contrast. This is a common theme in japanese fiction, YugiohGX story for example is all about that. The protagonist was the envoy of the king of darkness, its weird to have an 'evil' protagonist but the thing is, in that world the light was about to completely defeat darkness, and the world would end so a messiah of darkness was necessary. That doesnt even begin to explain everything and i myself havent figured out everything about Umineko, i just wanted to explain why Erika isnt right and why trick side couldnt win,take a look at my other comment in this comment section for a bit more of information.
The golden truth are the ones based of belief, like Battler belief that Beatrice gameboards follows rules so he can say that the burned corpse was Kinzo or Ange belief that her family is in her heart, Battler didn't try to tell Ange that she don't have to seek the golden truth, is quite the opposite actually... Was Battler was trying to say is that the objective truth don't exist (core topic of Umineko) because Rokkenjima exploded and even Eva's diary is not the objective truth (proving by the vn itself with Tohya being alive), he was trying to say to Ange that because Rokkenjima is a catbox as the truth can be whatever she wants she might have to choose the one that is better to her (kind of the same message Maria gave her in EP 4), is literally without love it cannot be seen. Saying EP 8 is pretentious because it didn't show the truth of what happened that day to me is proof you didn't understood the topics of the novel. The truth of Rokkenjima was never important to begin with, the novel wants you to understand Beatrice (as to why, how, and who). Battler didn't show the truth to Ange because he knows that it would destroy her, also in rereading is easily visible that EP 7 ??? is the truth when you see how Tohya/Battler chapters has parts of it (like Rosa telling about the secret mansion or the game to choose the heir that the cousins play) or EP 3 ??? as Eva hints that she was hiding the truth from Ange (the "absent mind" state she was before Ange entering, telling Ange to question her parents in hell the truth, she being angry as the fact that rudolph's daughter is going to inherit the gold instead of George) Is funny that you call yourself a goat lmao, at least you are self aware you didn't undestood the topics of the novel and besmirch it just because you couldn't connect the dots instead of try harder to see the intention of the author (Don't stop thinking, remember is a phrase highly used in the novel), you are talking that you don't care about the emotions of the characters so is clear you didn't also understood the core topic of the novel, love as phillia (understand people motives, empathy) I'm with you about the magic battles, Bernkastel and Lambadelta fight was dragged out to me, but they are not pointless... how it could be pointless the battle of certainty (fate) that want Ange not suffering against the lack of miracle of it not going to occur? (that is a funny thing because with Bernkastel revelation on the ending that she was just playing the role is clear that the miracle was going to occur anyway, all that ending is just a facade she puts) but well by now you demostrated that you took magical scenes as literal instead of the clear intention of the novel about it being metaphors/analogies to explain the concepts of it. Well you also misunderstood what was the meaning of the trick vs magic end so by now I'm just gonna say that while is kind of sad that you read something that can be easily considered the novel of our century and misunderstood almost all the topics so you call it "pretentious"... Umineko is A LOT more than just a murder mistery... To me it can be easily be the parable our modern times needed, a modern bible (or at least new testament) if you want to call it that way. To close, there is a topic Beatrice and Eva Beatrice talks in EP 3 about modernity rejecting the ideals of love, as to witches being pursuit for using magic to the modern people that were born without it. With your video is clear that he hit the nail with that, also is funny that Erika is your favourite character when the novel CLEARLY had the intention to use her as the way to not see Umineko.
@@TomatOgorodow high iq is not needed, just understand the metaphors and remember what the text says, to me the novel is easier to understand if you know Christian philosophy (that Umineko is clearly based from). Also sorry for the Bad English, saw a lot of mistakes in My writing... Is not My first language and I had autocorrector on.
The fact that this cheesy line trying to be deep was overused so much throughout the series It was nothing compared to the stuff they tried to do in episode 8 says a lot
I find you a bit agressive in your argument and that makes the video less constructive in my opinion when the point you discuss is very interesting from a story-reception perspective. Like pacing sucks, I agree with you no problem. Lambda vs Bern is useless. The avenger battle is useless. I don't agree these because there is a lot of meta things to take away if you try to go full Detective Mode with no magic. It is in my opinion why the trick ending is so small, because once the truth is found there is nothing more (also as shown with Erica truth can do worse things than a lie sometimes). And I would argue the trick ending is actually not negative but one of the key to understand all of the magic ending. When the truth is revealed and all hopes are down the mind can crumble so magic being there as a cope mechanism is actualy beautiful in my opinion since we saw how self-destructive Ange as a character is without it.
magic as a coping mechanism is just stupid, it is toxic, an unhealthy coping mechanism, should have just made magic about perspective (atleast with ange only) and not making up delusions to cope lol
im not gonna sit here and say that umineko has no flaws but holy saying its repetitive in how it shows the themes and then missing the entire point is just crazy,😭 Ryukishi should have been more repetitive ig
I love episode 8 and I respect the difference in opinion. Personally I didn't find it pretentious because I really resonated with Ange and Battler's back and forth or have issues with the pacing here really. The only time Ryukishi got on my nerves was through his self insert writing with Featherine, where he kept talking about his clear salt towards readers not reading in-between the lines in work, which you can argue came off snobby and ungrateful towards those who try his works, but atleast he was self-aware enough to have Ange there playing devil's advocate to those points in those scenes (she states to Featherine to not underestimate her readers as an example), so it's still not too bad. I do think episode 8 lovers and haters are bit too aggressive sometimes though, as they are so hell bent in proving they're right, while the other side is wrong and "either didn't get it" or are "ryukishi simps" depending on the side they're on. It's very childish and doesn't really do anyone favours, people should be allowed to interpret art differently without acting like the other side is braindead or only like it because of x and y petty reasons.
I didn't really perceive Featherine to be any sort of self-insert more like she was representing a certain type of a writer archetype. Imo Yukari Kotobuki was his self-insert, it was even mentioned that her works weren't as popular abroad until after the release of the 6th volume, when a group of enthusiasts decided to translate the whole series to English.
I mean obviously she has more to her than being a potential Ryukishi self-insert. I was just making a point to say that I can see aspects of the VNs writing where Ryukishi could come off kinda snobbish. This idea of being really not subtle about wanting the readers to work things out is done elsewhere in the VN too, he really wants to get the idea across and I can see why that might come off as condescending.@@anubis7457
The fact that this cheesy line trying to be deep was overused so much throughout the series It was nothing compared to the stuff they tried to do in episode 8 says a lot
Bro is literally just an Erika simp no wonder he has this take. 💀 Jokes aside from that episode 8 being "pretentious" and "virtue signaling" is literally the writer putting the final touches on appealing to the reader's emotions, this was it the final push of the button where it made us question once more "Are the facts and evidence truly what matter after all has been said and done?". You have come out of this episode disappointed because Ryukishi didn't spell it out and mouth feed us what really happened in Rokkenjima because knowing where the characters stand at the end of it all is what mattered all along.
1:39 “even if you removed erika from the island there are only 17” Was this a mistake or are you actually not paying attention? The book clearly says “even if we include you that’s only 17.” This is explicitly saying there’s no more than 16 people on the island, because Shannon and Kanon are one person. Shannon & Kanon being the same person is the biggest trick of the novel that’s why they said revealing it would reveal Beatrice’s ‘heart’
Everytime i see stuff like this i forgive Ryukishi a little bit more for his extremely repetitive writing. Theres no way people can get clobbered with it for almost a 100 hours and still not get it.
I respect the opinion and willingness to put it out there, but honestly the story just touched my heart that when it came to episode 8 I was just like “who gives a shit?”
I love how he gave it 8/10 and got this many dislike lmao. Umineko fans are basically Rick and Morty fans 'If you don't like it you're just too dumb to get it'. And it's even funnier when I imagine him talking to Ryukishi about the same points, and Ryukishi would probably just listen and have a normal quiet discussion.
I’m almost completely sure this is bait but the problems you have with episode 8 can be solved by understanding the message ryukishi spent 150 hours spoon feeding you. Without love it cannot be seen isn’t a quote ryukishi was using only within the context of uminekos plot. Understand the meta narrative and Christian subtext before commenting on this masterpiece.
In defense of Episode 8, the whole chapter is about emotional closure, and the act of putting down a story, both as a reader and a writer. After episode 7, what else is there even to say about the mystery? Even If you disagree with how Ryukishi decided to answer them in Ep 7, that's how he wanted to go about it. The mystery is "solved," with both an explanation of the culprit's whydunnit and howdunnit (not exactly nitty gritty details but you learn the overall methodology, mindset, and tools they had at their disposal) as well as the Ep 7 tea party providing an alternate answer for the truth seekers. So after that, what else could there even be to say? Did people genuinely want Beatrice and Battler to sit down and go over every single fine point of the mystery like "wow so that's what happened, that's crazy I never would have thought of that" How do you give closure to characters in the story, when a majority of the cast is already dead? The Halloween party provides an outlet for the characters to express their regrets and move on. The "games" are over now. The 18 primary cast members no longer have to perform their roles anymore. The pressures of their lives don't matter anymore. They can finally all reflect on themselves, and let the walls they have built up finally come down. The fight between Lamba and Bern is catharsis for two characters who have been playfully antagonistic forces for the whole story but never actually got to go all out and show their stuff against each other. The goats attacking *is* a jab at the readers so I won't blame people for getting annoyed for that, but I also consider it at least somewhat of a commentary on the consumption of true crime as a piece of media by uninvolved strangers, making entertainment out of real tragedies. I do agree it would have been nice to have a more expanded version of the Trick Ending. It's still Ange finding closure and moving on with her life, even if it's more of a bittersweet outcome compared to the Magic Ending. And I won't defend Ryukishi's pacing issues in his writing style, I do think that's Umineko's biggest flaw.
1 - "many people interpreted this as Ryuukishi throwing a jab at real life fans.." - Thats because it is exactly what he was doing. Because people wanted him to give the final, objective answer to what really happened in the island, and that would mean the death of this piece as a whole, you could just get your answer, close it and never think about it again. This visual novel is a piece of writing that denied its own death, and its probably why community still that alive...13+ years later. Ryuukishi WANTS you to challenge his misteries and interact with the world of Umineko, but he wont give you the answers.. That way that world will be alive forever, the characters are still alive and will be there if you want to try to solve it again and again, as ryuukishi stated. Umineko never really ended because it was made not to die. 2 - On the whole Battler trying to convince Ange to give up her search for the definitive truth. So.. Ange never wanted to know the definitive truth in the first place, what she wanted was to bring her family back. When she first started learning magic with Maria, the reason was to bring her family back. At some point she ended up becoming a witch of truth just like Eirika, but that was because Bernkastel tricked her. Knowing the actual Truth would, in fact, kill her(as it did). Battler wanted her to have a future and move on. After learning the truth, she doesnt accept it! She denies the truth completely and makes her own truth wich denies the death of her family members, becoming a wicth of ressurrection, as she initially intended. Then when confronting Bernkastel, Bern couldnt kill her family off even after stating that they were dead with the red truth. The true nature of our world is death, for us too, knowing the truth means death. The only way out is 'magic' or 'fiction', or i could say fiction IS magic itself, because it literally is. Theres no virtue signaling here at all, just insane religious teaching. Knowing a bit about gnosticism and religion overall can help you understand what is going on in this chapter, there is many many things i wanted to talk about this, but it would get too long so basically what i can say is that i have never seen any piece of fiction so heavy on religious enlightment as Umineko. This is not a normal piece of fiction, its like instructions on how the world and magic works. To anyone interested in the deep topics of Umineko, the breaking of the 4th wall, the denial of death(truth), and the relation between fiction and reality, i recommend a manga that is releasing called Undead Unluck. It starts kinda silly but i promise you will not regret it if you too are researching those topics.
@@anubis7457 ok, so, i didnt really read the manga but ive seen discussion about this. It seems contradicting for Ryuukishi to make a whole arc in the story about the character stopping Featherine from revealing the single truth(because this would mean killing the story) and then reveal the truth in the manga. What happened becomes clear when you see this letter Ryuukishi made talking about the woman who drew the manga, under his directions: -This is part of the final letter r07 wrote for ep 8 of the manga: "And she answered my demands on all counts, with all of her spirit. As she drew, we had much correspondence over details and things that were not explicitly revealed in the visual novel. It was like carving open the cat box to open it up - or as Bernkastel might say, cutting open the stomach of the cat box and pulling out all of its contents. Ultimately, I believe that I expressed everything that the cat-box was to Natsumi-sensei. So I think that it is reasonable to state that the only living person who understands what happened on that island that day as much as I, Ryukishi07, is Natsumi-sensei. She opened the cat-box up in her manga, and drew it brilliantly to the end." This Bernkastel did which he refers as "Cutting open he stomach and pulling out its contents" is the revealing of the answer for all misteries, and extraction of all meaning out of the story(interestingly, its the same as the ritual Rika performs in higurashi). This is exactly what the main characters prevent during the events of the VN. Im not sure if this part is in the manga at all, but anyways, the only conclusion to be made here is that the end of the manga is a BAD ENDING(bad ending meaning that is an ending where things go wrong, not an badly written ending). In other words, an ending where the world of Umineko was definately put to an end. We know for a fact that Ryuukishi wrote umineko chapter by chapter while seeing the feedback from the public. I dont know exactly why he did this on the manga, but maybe that was a response to negative feedback for him not revealing the answers until the very end. This whole case has a very similar paralel in another enigmatic piece of fiction: TWIN PEAKS. Basically, Twin Peaks is a series where a woman named Laura Palmer is killed and the protagonist is put to investigate the case. But the author said he wanted the series to be a mourning for her death and not exactly the chase for the culprit. The suspects in this series basically feed from attention, its hard to explain, but as you can see, the premise is VERY similar to how umineko handles the misteries specially towards the end. What happened is that after the series ended, the public put so much pressure that the author was forced to make another season, in which he revealed everything. Guess what? It got a bad ending too. the series literally ends in a gutural scream. Twin Peaks is a special case because the author really believed the series was a ritual to trigger a change in the mind of the public, so the author really understood his creative process as a magic spell, which i dont know if its the case with Ryuukishi, but, even if those two authors ended up revealing the main misteries of their works, the stories are so filled up with misteries that even that cant kill the story in the end. Thats why everyone still talks about those. theres people that basically spent a lifetime deciphering messages in Twinpeaks.
@@weeecalango2761 I mean personally I didn’t like the manga providing a singular answer either but the manga readers get mad if you try to point out you could see it as an interpretation instead of definite fact.
@@anubis7457 yea as i said, its not an interpretation, the ending of the manga IS definite fact. Ryuukishi has said this, i couldnt find it now but he said something along the lines of " the ending of the manga is not individual interpretation its actually what happened in Rokkenjina".I dont like this too but im not disputing it. I just wanted to point out that the revealing of the Single truth is the [bad ending] that was avoided in the VN and Ryuukishi confirms this when he says that the "catbox stomach was ripped open and the insides were pulled out" because thats exactly what Battler and Ange desperately fought to avoid in the last chapter.
@@anubis7457The manga exists in a world that also contains the VN -- it is not a replacement but a retelling. Like all those manuscripts in bottles, the manga provides "an" answer, not "the" answer... because it co-exists with the VN in the real world. You'ree free to take from both/either whatever you like 😊... This doesn't even depend on Ryūkishi's current opinion (which may change over time... in 20 years he may change his opinion). Umineko is meta AF.
Well, for me Umineko is the best VN ever written (at least for now - maybe I'll find even better one eventually), however, I could agree about those battle scenes, I'm definitely not very much a fan of them. Still, both endings, as well as Bernkastel's detective game redeem for me all the flaws and problems with pacing that could be found in that episode.
I enjoyed the ending especially the trick magic choice execution. The way it's presented the right hand of Beatrice which is revealed to have the candy is like the catbox of Rokkenjima, they hand you a scenario that makes it clear that either way you perceive it you were tricked because you are invited to look at the wrong place a place where the answer to your question doesn't exist just like the question arcs, so no one can say what was happening in the other hand or on Rokkenjima. while it's more than possible to make deductions and theories the exact truth in the VNs is similarly deliberately obscured.
Not only do I disagree with this stance, I also feel it needs pointing out that the Japanese fanbase' visceral hatred of Episode 8 and the harassment campaigns that followed are the reasons that we don't get more Umineko stuff made. Even if I didn't already like everything to do with the finale, I would have to disagree off the principle of that alone. But as for the actual content... What's not to love? If you find yourself relating to the goats' arguments, you're literally doing the exact same shit that everybody has made fun of Battler for throughout the entire story - You're trying to give answers to questions without thinking about why those questions are being asked in the first place.
The goats weren't just those without critical thought. They were EVERY fragment of theory that tried to explain the story Pretty much anything that tried to explain any point became a fragment, which is why knoxx and dyne tried to reoell their theories.
People writing here, "blud still doesn't get it 💀💀💀" He absolutely does, the episode just didn't deliver in the best way EDIT: on a second thought, he called all the fight scenes pointless, well I guess he missed the point on this particular part of the novel
While I don't agree with most of this video I can definitely see the issues you had. The pacing ,while I had no real issues with in this episode specifically, can get really tiring sometimes (ESPECIALLY EP 4 DAWG) . I personally loved the halloween party tbh, it was really fun to see the WHOLE cast hang out. The fights I will agree were getting fucking old atp though I didn't find them pointless exactly. Lambda was basically fighting Bern to buy Battler and Ange time, because she wanted a good ending from them. And the family was fighting Erika to protect the goldenland. (though ig it didn't matter since they all pulled up fine later lol) Also Battler decking tf outta Bern got pumped up too. Oh yeah I agree the music was amazing. All in all decent video even though I disagree with it.
What can I say other than "Without love it can't be seen" 😂😂😂 There's a reason you don't teach middle schoolers calculus, or an arts student astronomy... No really imagine missing the most basic message of umineko after reading episode 8 TWICE 💔
Umineko ending indeed sucks and people have been brainwashed. The thumb is perfect and Ryukishi is a talentless coward who hides behind metafiction. Dude really managed to retroactively ruin this series with this lame episode
"Hur dur without love it cannot be seen" When half of your work is lame metafiction (which you don't even clearly states whether is real or note), you are just a lame author
Yea episode 8 for me at least, was all about challenging our assumptions in the narrative. Two interesting pieces to the puzzle. Why was Ange fate a multiple choice decision? What is a catbox? I think these are the questions key to the magic ending.
I think your position is too motivated by personal salt, which given Umineko had me on an emotional rollercoaster (not in a good way I burnt out hard mid-episode 5) the entire time, I can sympathize. Battler felt too dumb at times, The themes too in your face. Anyone who says it can't feel pretentious at times is lying or bought in. I can be content with the argument that it was a bad approach or the execution is lacking, but overfocusing on Ryukishi insulting the fans just kills the discussion. Fact of the matter is, if you emotionally resonate with the series and accepted the emotional "logic" it threw at you around ~episode 4, it all fits. And it's not like there isn't value to that approach either. It can lead to fun discussions and storycrafting. Ironically it was learning the truth of the murders that made me realize that because I was so disappointed in them. It was my first mystery so I was expecting way crazier shit. I also came right after Higurashi and expected there to be *something* supernatural. I assume most people who are this mad at not getting answers care more about the overall story/mystery than individual characters. But if that's the case what exactly do you feel was missing? I feel like what happened on Rokkenjima is pretty spelled out and not all that complicated. I feel like most of the characters and their personalities were as well. What remaining mysteries did you want specifically? The full life of the culprit? I can agree it's overrated, that it's too long, that the way it tells its themes can be kind of annoying and isolating, that Ryukishi comes off as incredibly full of himself for pretty basic stuff here, but ultimately I don't get that complaint in particular. I DO think the manga is better but it doesn't really change a lot. If the episode bothers you that much so should the entire story imo.
in your opinion what do you think would have made the story not overrated and deserving of its praise do you think entire narratives have to be changed or the story just needs some editing here and there
yesss i feel like no one is willing to criticize umineko. i loved the series as a whole, but most of it was wayyyy too slow, and the halloween party in ep 8 was absolutely the worst offender. in higurashi i loved every second of the slice of life scenes because of the characters, but the same cant be said for umineko...
Honestly the overly slow pacing the only major issue I have with umineko, the VN has a lot of minor problems but nothing really bug enough to ruin the narrative (unlike the last higurashi animes ... ) Ange just failed to understand part 8 as much as he failed to understand saya no uta
this is unironically the funniest thing ive ever seen me and my girlfriend are on part 8 and we cannot stop calling it "virtue signal of the golden witch" akhfajksh
atheists hate episode 8 because it is that episode that makes them realise the whole story was an argument in favour of faith. the "solution" to the mystery doesn't matter. 8 elevates umineko from standard fare murder mystery to a story with truly deep meaning
Dunno if it's really a thing specific to atheists, Umineko had meaning before ep8, I'm not very religious and I love Umineko all-throughout. I'd say it's pretty christian in it's philosophy but it's not like you can't appreciate its messages/themes if you are an atheist, at the end of the day it's about acceptance, love and trust for others and seeing the person behind someone's actions
A comment I made on a video 2 years ago seems to be relevant here, so I guess I'll write it here as well. Oh, and R07 fanatics - take your meds before reading, please; The problem with Umineko Chiru is that despite what most people think Ryukishi07 probably didn't write the series alone. I forget the name of the guy, but he worked with Ryukishi07 and according to some he came up with most of the elaborate mysteries and tricks. The problem is... he died during the production of one of the Chiru Episodes (or even before, after the question arcs were complete). Because of that a lot of people theorize that without the guy, Ryukishi07 didn't have a satisfying and complex solution to the mystery which the fans really wanted and couldn't come up with a satisfying solution to the mystery that grew way too complex for him, so he grew increasingly frustrated with the fans' demands for a satisfying solution - a frustration that resulted in the whole obvious "demon goats=fans hungry for solutions" metaphor and the "It was a love story, not a mystery from the very beginning, don't ask for solutions that don't matter, you goats!" which really pissed off all the dedicated fans (I mean damn some Japanese fans actually managed to solve epitaph correctly before episode 7, there was a hell of a dedicated fanbase back in the day). The solution that was provided was also so underwhelming - multiple personalities and a rotating list of servant collaborators for every episode? Anyone could predict and solve this (and many did as early as after episode 4), people expected a better mind-blowing complex solution that would introduce a single impossible culprit that somehow committed all the crimes with no willing assistants... because the alternative was... underwhelming and boring. I enjoyed the ride all the way through but I can't say I feel very positively about Ryukishi07 baiting fans for 7 episodes with a mystery and then clearly insulting them for wanting a solution (in my opinion because he couldn't provide a good enough solution after all the build-up). That guy whose name I don't remember might have had a better solution in mind or might have been able to come up with one but without him, Ryukishi07 just wasn't good enough. I mean, damn, some people are still so pissed so many years later that they insist on the Rosa = Beatrice theory still being valid... and to be fair that solution doesn't violate anything and is technically more interesting and complex so...
BT was not the scenario writer for Umineko nor any of Ryuukishi's works; he was the webmaster and that's the only thing he's ever been credited for. The only impact he may have had in the story is that Ryuukishi's stated in interviews that Umineko began as a passion project, partly out of a desire to impress his friend (BT) with the riddles it presents; but that would still imply Ryuukishi is the one who came up with the mystery, not BT. You could argue BT's death left him jaded and that it affected the direction Chiru was going in, but I've only ever seen people using BT's death as a crutch to claim Ryuukishi is a hack and that BT was the true mastermind behind the question arcs and similar baloney; some doing it to justify their own pet-theories being valid pre-Chiru. This whole narrative surrounding BT is just a cope for bitter fans to reconcile their disappointment with Ryuukishi and simultaneous enjoyment of the series.
W. In my opinion Ep1 was the best episode in the saga. it had this horror higurashi mixed with blair witch project horror climate. i think this what should umineko follow not this mystery nonsense. Also in answer arcs they ruined beatrice (Sayo,Kanon,Shannon) charachter like they are the same person, better explanation was shown in ep2
I think at that point if they went the full horror mystery route they could have just done and adaptation of the book " and then there were none" which episode 1 was clearly inspired by
@@sukashi_0901 umineko eliminates the horror aspects and makes it clear as day when the Kanon vs goat scene happens in EP 2 that that is not the direction it intends going on and most horror elements are gone and Higurashi is where ryikishi putted his atmospheric ambience at Higurashi and later explored his characters more in Kai, is umineko overrated kinda but it isn't what I would call a "horror" story
VN readers really be getting offended over everything no wonder everyone views us as soft weirdos. At the end of the day Im not gonna care about a opinion made from some one whos favorite vns are basically just mid rom coms
Out of curiosity, what are your favorite visual novels then? Also, I have plenty of non romcom in my top favs like Sharin no Kuni, Ever17, Symphonic Rain, Criminal Border, Nukitashi, Bokuten, etc
Damn you talk fast. To be honest, I hate Ryukushi's pacing, I feel like we can easily cut 20-25% of overall text and still have concrete story. I agree with you that Erika is the best girl, for me she carried episodes 5-6, I absolutely hated that Battler Christ like scene in ep 5 were he comes back to life and solves the mystery. It left a bad taste in my mouth. I actually stopped reading around midways of episode 7, cause I was getting tired and not enjoying story at all. No worries though, I spoiled myself wayback. Which once more left soury taste in my mouth. The whole episode 8 debasco, I agree with JP fandom it feels like a pretentious disrespect to the reader. Like someone mentioned episode 8 is very much based on faith and believe. (From what I saw on TH-cam videos) However, Umineko as a whole heavily uses Christian particularly Catholic influences and the magic system is clearly based on western esoterism. For example, the whole (demons, stakes, Supernatural) are based on Lesser Key of Solomon. I wouldn't be surprised that the magic seals and symbols indeed come from Lesser Key. Episode 8 Ange vs Bern battle (saw on TH-cam) has heavy biblical undertones. Despite my overall dislike, I commend Ryukushi for actually researching and exploring stuff outside his cultural boundaries. In this regard, he done great job.
Haven't watched those, but based on what I hear I'm not particularly interested I saw basically everything after Kai (and maybe Rei) as the typical shallow fan service money grab
@@AngeVNsdo you mean you see kai and rei as money grabbing crap? Because if that's what you mean then i can't take you seriously anymore, but yeah aside from these 2, the rest of the higurashi content is pure garbage if that's what you mean
It's a shame you're using loaded phrases like "virtue signaling" cuz i mostly agree with EP 8 being a dud. I don't mind the mystery being kept vague but in that case, it should've ended with EP 7 (ideally on a happier note). EP 8 meanders because it's constrained by R07 hiding the truth. The manga did it a lot better.
I respect your opinion, but I disagree with a lot of your points - 1) characters weren't fighting "for no reason" just because you may have failed to see the reason. 2) I still don't get what virtue signaling you're talking about. You keep saying it, but not explaining it.
They were tho? The whole "ange summoning goats to destroy magic realm" was dumb It was her choice, battler fighting against her after giving her that choice is just a very selfish thing. Bernkastel also had nothing to get out of it and the fighting scenes didn't add anything to the story They weren't even trying Battler vs erika had so many stupid rushed arguments that it made so clear that the entire ooint was fanservice. Erika was also very out of character
@@Jrdotan Your interpretation of these events sounds too literal. That whole episode was Ange's inner battle. Battler wasn't literally fighting her or trying to take away her agency. It was Battler's message to her that was causing internal turmoil. Ange summoning goats was her appealing to the public opinion in order to reject Battler's message. Berrnkastel has as much to get out of a situation as the very concept of fate and probability has. Again, Bernkastel is not a literal entity with her own goals. She's the embodiment of the concept of uncontrollable chance, while Lambdadelta is the embodiement of the concept of working hard to increase the probability of you succeeding. When you take that into consideration, you realize what the fight between them means. The Battler vs Erika fight was coupled with the Ange vs Beatrice fight for a reason. Ange vs Beatrice was Ange dealing with her feelings that the culprit (the Witch) created the catbox and made it so that Ange couldn't get her answers. The Erika vs Battler fight was the trick vs magic endings. The search for the One Truth vs Battler's message of moving on. Like I get everyone has different interpretations of media, but I feel like the argument here is based on no interpretation. Like saying all the fights are meaningless, when there is a lot that can be read into them.
@@crazyfun95 i know what they mean, my issue is that EVERYTHING is meta so allegories are meaningless when they don't add anything to the overall theme or narrative progression. For example, you say my issue is lacking interpretation for the fights and then describe the struggle as important because of how ange arbitrarily choose to go for public opinion and that heavily conflicted with the intentions of battler and the whole thing she learned throught her journey + throught inner thoughts based on what she learned from maria's diary However, instead of bloating the episode of fights that didnt even try to capture high stakes or well done coreography not well ilustrated characterization The same thing could be achieved by placing Ange against the affective memory of her parents, contrasting with the stories she heard Seeing Ange going for the truth despite knowing that this means loosing the image she has of her father in a more abstract but directly meaningful way would be both more important to the core concept of the story, but easier to empathize with. It also would take the spotlight directly to Ange, instead iof removing her showtime to split between all those characters in an avenger-esque finale. In fiction metaphorical symbolism is useless because the message has no weight if it lacks finesse in its execution.
I don't agree that Ryukishi was virtue signaling, at least I don't think the video did a good job of explaining why you thought this. However, I completely agree that Episode 8 was a pretentious slap to the face that wasted the readers time. It soured me not only on Umineko as a whole but as Ryukishi as a writer. If he ever went in released a version that added the answers from the manga version into the visual novel I would be more forgiving but as it stands I consider Umineko to be an incomplete work and wouldn't recommend it. You did a good job of arguing why not giving the answers, in the Answers Arc, can be interpreted as a direct insult to the reader.
I don't even need to watch this to agree. I despise Chiru, and this is a time I have to agree with the Japanese AND the Westerners who read it as it was getting translated (like myself). It's only Westerners who got into it later and wasn't reading as it was going along who love it.
Ange ruined the series for me. Couldn't stand her arc and whole character. So since the 4th episode, she took Maria's place as the worst one haha. The novel was great at first but... the longer it went, the more boring it was. Ep7 was my saviour at the end, I really enioyed it only to get devastated during the 8th with lack of interest in the finale thanks to... yeah, like everything.
@@AngeVNs Yeap. Makes the westerners of a certain type identify with her even more and end up loving it just for that reason. You know what's bad? That you still have to go check the manga after reading the entire VN because shit was unclear, there is no mystery to be solved it's just a badly written mystery VN. Kara no shoujo restored my faith on the mystery genre after reading the crap that is umineko.
@@HanSDevX you failed so hard at understanding Ryuukishi´s work youre mad at the author. Massive L, i can tell your mind noticed there was something extremely important in the story but you lacked the background to understand it and now youre pissed. The hint is modern gnosticism. And the story is clash Fantasy vs Mistery genre, or you could say Fiction vs Reality, but the point is, you prob shouldnt have expected a common mistery story.
Nah bro the title, thumbnail and the wild use of the word pretentious makes me think this whole vid is either just the lowest form of fandom bait or a youtuber actually being pretentious by trying to have the most "le BASED" take out there 💀.
"Without love, it (the truth) cannot be seen" simply means that if you approach a situation without 'love' - without good faith and belief in the goodness of the people involved, and without an open mind - then often you will see that situation as being colder, darker, and more hopeless than if you had approached it otherwise. I'm convinced this 100+ hour story is designed to be the ultimate litmus test for media literacy.
Yeah I feel you missed the point of the goats. It wasn't a jab at being caring too much about the mystery side of the story so much as people wanting to be spoonfed the answers without deducing it through the question arcs and coming to understanding the nature of truth and how the deconstruction of truth in the later episodes helps to recontextualize your understanding of events in the previous episodes. I'm pretty sure it was intended for readers to go back and re-read episodes 1-4 to come to the same conclusions Will did in episode 7.
Also for someone who said they understood the magic scene's and how they we're contexualized you think you'd get that Lambda being the Witch of Certainty and you know supporting humans who believe in her would tell you the reason she is fighting Bern represents Battler and Ange's desire for a "good" ending at least regards to the book of single truth and not having people aka goat's revel in the suffering of the Ushiromiya massacre and what happens so they can keep theorizing disregarding Ange's real world involvement and how it affects her and the memories of those who died. The representative aspect in the meta context still works because of that.
Saying that I do believe that the Manga does aspects of Episode 8 better though it comes at the cost of revealing everything it does point out how Battler's intention being good doesn't exact work as intended with regards to Ange and if he had just told her and had more trust without using too much magic for the message he wanted to send her, Ange probably could've moved on.
I firmly disagree with the ending being pretentious though and the idea of Virtue signalling. The VN has already established the notion of Truth not being a clear cut objective thing that is easily defined which is why the heart of the story is more important. Magic is less not acknowledging the truth but understanding it and choosing to believe hope for the future to move on. Trick involves searching for a truth that doesn't exist because nobody can truly know everything that happened, even Eva's Book of Single truth is unlikely to be a completely unequivocally unbiased recollection of events. Ange would literally be searching for an answer that doesn't exist and the spend of her life miserably searching for it.
Having the message of understanding the reasons why people do things and how multiple truths can exist in tandem isn't signaling about how good of a person you are so much as having empathy for the people within the story inspite of them being flawed. You say the theme was hammered in, but honestly it felt like you completely missed the nuance of the VN and theme it had hammered throughout the entire thing. Ironically, a lot of the VN scene's that aren't meta battles between Beatrice and Battler actually spell out the bigger picture if you look at the VN with more of the heart/motive of the character.
The notion of belief is hugely integral to the story after all. It's only reason red truth works at all since the reader needs to have faith in the rules of the game aka the mystery for it to work.
Gotta love how the people that say the VN is repetitive are the ones that didnt get it. Umineko got a lot of concepts that are hard to understand even if its repeated over and ovrr.
The trick/magic question of Episode 8 is one of the best personality litmus tests we have
have a shot every time he said "virtue signaling"
Have a shot every time he says "pretentious"
@@22222j Have a shot every time he says infinity war.
Bro read Umineko twice, and managed to miss the point both times. 💀
he missed the point so hard i feel like dropping a 98 paragraph comment here
@@weeecalango2761 then tell us the point if you so smart. you ryukushi fanboys are so boring, like everytime when someone has diffrent opinion or view on story, or help God dosnt like Battler, or beatrice (yasu) you go out and say
: hE MISseD THe poInT
: HE'S a TRolL
: hE HaveN'T ReaD MidneKo
Erika was the only one right.
@@Perskan. So, theres a comment of mine pointing the major things the video got wrong about chapter 8. Basically, umineko is not a normal mistery story. Its a battle between mystery and fantasy genre.
In a way Erika was right however, thats not the point of the story, and she wasnt even completely right either. The people who say Erika was right usually read it while considering all the magic stuff as skipable bs, and thats not the case.
Its hard to explain, but basically, neither side of the game could win. Thats why Bern was 'the final villain' despite siding with Battler the whole story, and thats why Lambda surprisingly sides with Battler in the end. I dont see many people talking about this. You see, the games between Bern and Lambda involves Lambda creating a inescapable maze where Bern is sure to loose and Bern repeats it untill she manages to create a miracle and escape. It was the same in Higurashi. Bern is the witch of miracles and Lambda is the witch of certainity. So, Lambda is actually satisfied with keeping the game going forever, while Bern has to win.
Thats why Bern calls for Ange when she turns against Battler. The truth is, she realised Battler was STALLING and wanted to end it, having Ange finding the single truth. Battler was stalling because at some point he realised that his victory would be the end of his world, which is the story itself. If you pay attention youll notice chapter 8 is all about avoiding a conclusion/the end of the story.
His world is a battle between fiction and reality. Like in taoism, our world is a battle between light and darkness. For anything to exist, those to must be present. Like how you cant see anything in total darkness, but you also cant see anything in total bright light. Shapes, things only show(exist) in contrast.
This is a common theme in japanese fiction, YugiohGX story for example is all about that. The protagonist was the envoy of the king of darkness, its weird to have an 'evil' protagonist but the thing is, in that world the light was about to completely defeat darkness, and the world would end so a messiah of darkness was necessary.
That doesnt even begin to explain everything and i myself havent figured out everything about Umineko, i just wanted to explain why Erika isnt right and why trick side couldnt win,take a look at my other comment in this comment section for a bit more of information.
Smartest trick ending fan
@@dxgeu5322 average magic ending fanboy. rolplaying INGSOC. You know magic dosnt exist right ? since forgies were wrotten by featherine and battler
The golden truth are the ones based of belief, like Battler belief that Beatrice gameboards follows rules so he can say that the burned corpse was Kinzo or Ange belief that her family is in her heart, Battler didn't try to tell Ange that she don't have to seek the golden truth, is quite the opposite actually... Was Battler was trying to say is that the objective truth don't exist (core topic of Umineko) because Rokkenjima exploded and even Eva's diary is not the objective truth (proving by the vn itself with Tohya being alive), he was trying to say to Ange that because Rokkenjima is a catbox as the truth can be whatever she wants she might have to choose the one that is better to her (kind of the same message Maria gave her in EP 4), is literally without love it cannot be seen.
Saying EP 8 is pretentious because it didn't show the truth of what happened that day to me is proof you didn't understood the topics of the novel. The truth of Rokkenjima was never important to begin with, the novel wants you to understand Beatrice (as to why, how, and who). Battler didn't show the truth to Ange because he knows that it would destroy her, also in rereading is easily visible that EP 7 ??? is the truth when you see how Tohya/Battler chapters has parts of it (like Rosa telling about the secret mansion or the game to choose the heir that the cousins play) or EP 3 ??? as Eva hints that she was hiding the truth from Ange (the "absent mind" state she was before Ange entering, telling Ange to question her parents in hell the truth, she being angry as the fact that rudolph's daughter is going to inherit the gold instead of George)
Is funny that you call yourself a goat lmao, at least you are self aware you didn't undestood the topics of the novel and besmirch it just because you couldn't connect the dots instead of try harder to see the intention of the author (Don't stop thinking, remember is a phrase highly used in the novel), you are talking that you don't care about the emotions of the characters so is clear you didn't also understood the core topic of the novel, love as phillia (understand people motives, empathy)
I'm with you about the magic battles, Bernkastel and Lambadelta fight was dragged out to me, but they are not pointless... how it could be pointless the battle of certainty (fate) that want Ange not suffering against the lack of miracle of it not going to occur? (that is a funny thing because with Bernkastel revelation on the ending that she was just playing the role is clear that the miracle was going to occur anyway, all that ending is just a facade she puts) but well by now you demostrated that you took magical scenes as literal instead of the clear intention of the novel about it being metaphors/analogies to explain the concepts of it.
Well you also misunderstood what was the meaning of the trick vs magic end so by now I'm just gonna say that while is kind of sad that you read something that can be easily considered the novel of our century and misunderstood almost all the topics so you call it "pretentious"... Umineko is A LOT more than just a murder mistery... To me it can be easily be the parable our modern times needed, a modern bible (or at least new testament) if you want to call it that way.
To close, there is a topic Beatrice and Eva Beatrice talks in EP 3 about modernity rejecting the ideals of love, as to witches being pursuit for using magic to the modern people that were born without it. With your video is clear that he hit the nail with that, also is funny that Erika is your favourite character when the novel CLEARLY had the intention to use her as the way to not see Umineko.
Based comment
To be fair, you need a very high IQ to understand Umineko.
@@TomatOgorodow high iq is not needed, just understand the metaphors and remember what the text says, to me the novel is easier to understand if you know Christian philosophy (that Umineko is clearly based from).
Also sorry for the Bad English, saw a lot of mistakes in My writing... Is not My first language and I had autocorrector on.
@@dukissjtuki no worry, me too. My comment is also a kind of metaphor, a baiting one.
Ah hell nah💀
Ofcourse he said that. This dude's best girl is Erika 💀
THE GOAT IS HERE
Ryuukishi was right, without love it cannot be seen.
i'm crying i look at the comments and the first thing i see is this
without love it cannot be seen
The fact that this cheesy line trying to be deep was overused so much throughout the series
It was nothing compared to the stuff they tried to do in episode 8 says a lot
@@AngeVNs without love it cannot be seen
@@nasa1722 War is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength
People die when they are killed!
@@Perskan.without love, it cannot be seen
I find you a bit agressive in your argument and that makes the video less constructive in my opinion when the point you discuss is very interesting from a story-reception perspective.
Like pacing sucks, I agree with you no problem.
Lambda vs Bern is useless. The avenger battle is useless.
I don't agree these because there is a lot of meta things to take away if you try to go full Detective Mode with no magic.
It is in my opinion why the trick ending is so small, because once the truth is found there is nothing more (also as shown with Erica truth can do worse things than a lie sometimes). And I would argue the trick ending is actually not negative but one of the key to understand all of the magic ending.
When the truth is revealed and all hopes are down the mind can crumble so magic being there as a cope mechanism is actualy beautiful in my opinion since we saw how self-destructive Ange as a character is without it.
magic as a coping mechanism is just stupid, it is toxic, an unhealthy coping mechanism, should have just made magic about perspective (atleast with ange only) and not making up delusions to cope lol
WHAT IS BLUD WAFFLIN ABOUT💀💀💀
Without love, you will miss the point
im not gonna sit here and say that umineko has no flaws but holy saying its repetitive in how it shows the themes and then missing the entire point is just crazy,😭 Ryukishi should have been more repetitive ig
except it really does not have flaws like y'all pretend it does
@@tarkovsky97it absolutely does what the heck you on
I love episode 8 and I respect the difference in opinion. Personally I didn't find it pretentious because I really resonated with Ange and Battler's back and forth or have issues with the pacing here really. The only time Ryukishi got on my nerves was through his self insert writing with Featherine, where he kept talking about his clear salt towards readers not reading in-between the lines in work, which you can argue came off snobby and ungrateful towards those who try his works, but atleast he was self-aware enough to have Ange there playing devil's advocate to those points in those scenes (she states to Featherine to not underestimate her readers as an example), so it's still not too bad.
I do think episode 8 lovers and haters are bit too aggressive sometimes though, as they are so hell bent in proving they're right, while the other side is wrong and "either didn't get it" or are "ryukishi simps" depending on the side they're on. It's very childish and doesn't really do anyone favours, people should be allowed to interpret art differently without acting like the other side is braindead or only like it because of x and y petty reasons.
I do agree extremists on both sides are pretty annoying
I didn't really perceive Featherine to be any sort of self-insert more like she was representing a certain type of a writer archetype. Imo Yukari Kotobuki was his self-insert, it was even mentioned that her works weren't as popular abroad until after the release of the 6th volume, when a group of enthusiasts decided to translate the whole series to English.
@@LambdaaaDeltaYeah... I feel like people put too much emphasis on Featherine as a self-insert instead of evaluating her as her own character.
I mean obviously she has more to her than being a potential Ryukishi self-insert. I was just making a point to say that I can see aspects of the VNs writing where Ryukishi could come off kinda snobbish. This idea of being really not subtle about wanting the readers to work things out is done elsewhere in the VN too, he really wants to get the idea across and I can see why that might come off as condescending.@@anubis7457
Without love, it cannot be seen.
The fact that this cheesy line trying to be deep was overused so much throughout the series
It was nothing compared to the stuff they tried to do in episode 8 says a lot
Wtf, umineko s the qu'ran now.
@@cesarpietrocalathaki9539what??
Bro is literally just an Erika simp no wonder he has this take. 💀
Jokes aside from that episode 8 being "pretentious" and "virtue signaling" is literally the writer putting the final touches on appealing to the reader's emotions, this was it the final push of the button where it made us question once more "Are the facts and evidence truly what matter after all has been said and done?". You have come out of this episode disappointed because Ryukishi didn't spell it out and mouth feed us what really happened in Rokkenjima because knowing where the characters stand at the end of it all is what mattered all along.
Hell yeah Erika was right
@@AngeVNs agree. Erika is the only one on this series that has functional brain instead of that idiot battler.
(Rosa is the best ngl)
i don't even remember what went down in ep8
1:39 “even if you removed erika from the island there are only 17”
Was this a mistake or are you actually not paying attention? The book clearly says “even if we include you that’s only 17.”
This is explicitly saying there’s no more than 16 people on the island, because Shannon and Kanon are one person. Shannon & Kanon being the same person is the biggest trick of the novel that’s why they said revealing it would reveal Beatrice’s ‘heart’
Everytime i see stuff like this i forgive Ryukishi a little bit more for his extremely repetitive writing. Theres no way people can get clobbered with it for almost a 100 hours and still not get it.
Ryuukishi07 should never be forgiven for repetitive writing under any circumstance
The Japanese are right. Ryukishi is a hack.
did you dislike umineko or
I respect the opinion and willingness to put it out there, but honestly the story just touched my heart that when it came to episode 8 I was just like “who gives a shit?”
I love how he gave it 8/10 and got this many dislike lmao. Umineko fans are basically Rick and Morty fans 'If you don't like it you're just too dumb to get it'. And it's even funnier when I imagine him talking to Ryukishi about the same points, and Ryukishi would probably just listen and have a normal quiet discussion.
@@darkcarr0t Even though I have a lot of criticisms of Ryuukishi07 I'd still love to meet him and have a proper mature discussion
I’m almost completely sure this is bait but the problems you have with episode 8 can be solved by understanding the message ryukishi spent 150 hours spoon feeding you. Without love it cannot be seen isn’t a quote ryukishi was using only within the context of uminekos plot. Understand the meta narrative and Christian subtext before commenting on this masterpiece.
Fr. Go read game of thrones or some shit if you care so much about this nitpicky bullshit
In defense of Episode 8, the whole chapter is about emotional closure, and the act of putting down a story, both as a reader and a writer. After episode 7, what else is there even to say about the mystery? Even If you disagree with how Ryukishi decided to answer them in Ep 7, that's how he wanted to go about it. The mystery is "solved," with both an explanation of the culprit's whydunnit and howdunnit (not exactly nitty gritty details but you learn the overall methodology, mindset, and tools they had at their disposal) as well as the Ep 7 tea party providing an alternate answer for the truth seekers. So after that, what else could there even be to say? Did people genuinely want Beatrice and Battler to sit down and go over every single fine point of the mystery like "wow so that's what happened, that's crazy I never would have thought of that"
How do you give closure to characters in the story, when a majority of the cast is already dead? The Halloween party provides an outlet for the characters to express their regrets and move on. The "games" are over now. The 18 primary cast members no longer have to perform their roles anymore. The pressures of their lives don't matter anymore. They can finally all reflect on themselves, and let the walls they have built up finally come down. The fight between Lamba and Bern is catharsis for two characters who have been playfully antagonistic forces for the whole story but never actually got to go all out and show their stuff against each other. The goats attacking *is* a jab at the readers so I won't blame people for getting annoyed for that, but I also consider it at least somewhat of a commentary on the consumption of true crime as a piece of media by uninvolved strangers, making entertainment out of real tragedies.
I do agree it would have been nice to have a more expanded version of the Trick Ending. It's still Ange finding closure and moving on with her life, even if it's more of a bittersweet outcome compared to the Magic Ending. And I won't defend Ryukishi's pacing issues in his writing style, I do think that's Umineko's biggest flaw.
1 - "many people interpreted this as Ryuukishi throwing a jab at real life fans.." - Thats because it is exactly what he was doing. Because people wanted him to give the final, objective answer to what really happened in the island, and that would mean the death of this piece as a whole, you could just get your answer, close it and never think about it again. This visual novel is a piece of writing that denied its own death, and its probably why community still that alive...13+ years later.
Ryuukishi WANTS you to challenge his misteries and interact with the world of Umineko, but he wont give you the answers.. That way that world will be alive forever, the characters are still alive and will be there if you want to try to solve it again and again, as ryuukishi stated. Umineko never really ended because it was made not to die.
2 - On the whole Battler trying to convince Ange to give up her search for the definitive truth. So.. Ange never wanted to know the definitive truth in the first place, what she wanted was to bring her family back. When she first started learning magic with Maria, the reason was to bring her family back. At some point she ended up becoming a witch of truth just like Eirika, but that was because Bernkastel tricked her. Knowing the actual Truth would, in fact, kill her(as it did). Battler wanted her to have a future and move on.
After learning the truth, she doesnt accept it! She denies the truth completely and makes her own truth wich denies the death of her family members, becoming a wicth of ressurrection, as she initially intended. Then when confronting Bernkastel, Bern couldnt kill her family off even after stating that they were dead with the red truth.
The true nature of our world is death, for us too, knowing the truth means death. The only way out is 'magic' or 'fiction', or i could say fiction IS magic itself, because it literally is.
Theres no virtue signaling here at all, just insane religious teaching.
Knowing a bit about gnosticism and religion overall can help you understand what is going on in this chapter, there is many many things i wanted to talk about this, but it would get too long so basically what i can say is that i have never seen any piece of fiction so heavy on religious enlightment as Umineko. This is not a normal piece of fiction, its like instructions on how the world and magic works.
To anyone interested in the deep topics of Umineko, the breaking of the 4th wall, the denial of death(truth), and the relation between fiction and reality, i recommend a manga that is releasing called Undead Unluck. It starts kinda silly but i promise you will not regret it if you too are researching those topics.
For point number 1, how do you explain the manga's providing of a single answer... then...?
@@anubis7457 ok, so, i didnt really read the manga but ive seen discussion about this.
It seems contradicting for Ryuukishi to make a whole arc in the story about the character stopping Featherine from revealing the single truth(because this would mean killing the story) and then reveal the truth in the manga.
What happened becomes clear when you see this letter Ryuukishi made talking about the woman who drew the manga, under his directions:
-This is part of the final letter r07 wrote for ep 8 of the manga:
"And she answered my demands on all counts, with all of her spirit. As she drew, we had much correspondence over details and things that were not explicitly revealed in the visual novel. It was like carving open the cat box to open it up - or as Bernkastel might say, cutting open the stomach of the cat box and pulling out all of its contents. Ultimately, I believe that I expressed everything that the cat-box was to Natsumi-sensei. So I think that it is reasonable to state that the only living person who understands what happened on that island that day as much as I, Ryukishi07, is Natsumi-sensei. She opened the cat-box up in her manga, and drew it brilliantly to the end."
This Bernkastel did which he refers as "Cutting open he stomach and pulling out its contents" is the revealing of the answer for all misteries, and extraction of all meaning out of the story(interestingly, its the same as the ritual Rika performs in higurashi). This is exactly what the main characters prevent during the events of the VN. Im not sure if this part is in the manga at all, but anyways, the only conclusion to be made here is that the end of the manga is a BAD ENDING(bad ending meaning that is an ending where things go wrong, not an badly written ending).
In other words, an ending where the world of Umineko was definately put to an end. We know for a fact that Ryuukishi wrote umineko chapter by chapter while seeing the feedback from the public. I dont know exactly why he did this on the manga, but maybe that was a response to negative feedback for him not revealing the answers until the very end.
This whole case has a very similar paralel in another enigmatic piece of fiction: TWIN PEAKS. Basically, Twin Peaks is a series where a woman named Laura Palmer is killed and the protagonist is put to investigate the case. But the author said he wanted the series to be a mourning for her death and not exactly the chase for the culprit. The suspects in this series basically feed from attention, its hard to explain, but as you can see, the premise is VERY similar to how umineko handles the misteries specially towards the end.
What happened is that after the series ended, the public put so much pressure that the author was forced to make another season, in which he revealed everything. Guess what? It got a bad ending too. the series literally ends in a gutural scream.
Twin Peaks is a special case because the author really believed the series was a ritual to trigger a change in the mind of the public, so the author really understood his creative process as a magic spell, which i dont know if its the case with Ryuukishi, but, even if those two authors ended up revealing the main misteries of their works, the stories are so filled up with misteries that even that cant kill the story in the end.
Thats why everyone still talks about those. theres people that basically spent a lifetime deciphering messages in Twinpeaks.
@@weeecalango2761 I mean personally I didn’t like the manga providing a singular answer either but the manga readers get mad if you try to point out you could see it as an interpretation instead of definite fact.
@@anubis7457 yea as i said, its not an interpretation, the ending of the manga IS definite fact. Ryuukishi has said this, i couldnt find it now but he said something along the lines of " the ending of the manga is not individual interpretation its actually what happened in Rokkenjina".I dont like this too but im not disputing it.
I just wanted to point out that the revealing of the Single truth is the [bad ending] that was avoided in the VN and Ryuukishi confirms this when he says that the "catbox stomach was ripped open and the insides were pulled out" because thats exactly what Battler and Ange desperately fought to avoid in the last chapter.
@@anubis7457The manga exists in a world that also contains the VN -- it is not a replacement but a retelling. Like all those manuscripts in bottles, the manga provides "an" answer, not "the" answer... because it co-exists with the VN in the real world. You'ree free to take from both/either whatever you like 😊... This doesn't even depend on Ryūkishi's current opinion (which may change over time... in 20 years he may change his opinion).
Umineko is meta AF.
the only thing i took away from this video is that bro doesn't know what 'simp' *or* 'virtue signalling' means
Well, for me Umineko is the best VN ever written (at least for now - maybe I'll find even better one eventually), however, I could agree about those battle scenes, I'm definitely not very much a fan of them. Still, both endings, as well as Bernkastel's detective game redeem for me all the flaws and problems with pacing that could be found in that episode.
I enjoyed the ending especially the trick magic choice execution. The way it's presented the right hand of Beatrice which is revealed to have the candy is like the catbox of Rokkenjima, they hand you a scenario that makes it clear that either way you perceive it you were tricked because you are invited to look at the wrong place a place where the answer to your question doesn't exist just like the question arcs, so no one can say what was happening in the other hand or on Rokkenjima. while it's more than possible to make deductions and theories the exact truth in the VNs is similarly deliberately obscured.
Favorite moment was when Erika wore the pirates hat
That part was pretty great!
Not only do I disagree with this stance, I also feel it needs pointing out that the Japanese fanbase' visceral hatred of Episode 8 and the harassment campaigns that followed are the reasons that we don't get more Umineko stuff made. Even if I didn't already like everything to do with the finale, I would have to disagree off the principle of that alone.
But as for the actual content... What's not to love? If you find yourself relating to the goats' arguments, you're literally doing the exact same shit that everybody has made fun of Battler for throughout the entire story - You're trying to give answers to questions without thinking about why those questions are being asked in the first place.
But Battler did the right thing fighting evil witches premise.
The goats weren't just those without critical thought.
They were EVERY fragment of theory that tried to explain the story
Pretty much anything that tried to explain any point became a fragment, which is why knoxx and dyne tried to reoell their theories.
People writing here, "blud still doesn't get it 💀💀💀"
He absolutely does, the episode just didn't deliver in the best way
EDIT: on a second thought, he called all the fight scenes pointless, well I guess he missed the point on this particular part of the novel
You're like if Erika read umineko
What a coincidence, Erika is my fav character
While I don't agree with most of this video I can definitely see the issues you had. The pacing ,while I had no real issues with in this episode specifically, can get really tiring sometimes (ESPECIALLY EP 4 DAWG) . I personally loved the halloween party tbh, it was really fun to see the WHOLE cast hang out. The fights I will agree were getting fucking old atp though I didn't find them pointless exactly. Lambda was basically fighting Bern to buy Battler and Ange time, because she wanted a good ending from them. And the family was fighting Erika to protect the goldenland. (though ig it didn't matter since they all pulled up fine later lol) Also Battler decking tf outta Bern got pumped up too.
Oh yeah I agree the music was amazing. All in all decent video even though I disagree with it.
What can I say other than "Without love it can't be seen" 😂😂😂
There's a reason you don't teach middle schoolers calculus, or an arts student astronomy...
No really imagine missing the most basic message of umineko after reading episode 8 TWICE 💔
What's the message lol?
@@jolel3842without love it can’t be seen obv
Umineko ending indeed sucks and people have been brainwashed. The thumb is perfect and Ryukishi is a talentless coward who hides behind metafiction. Dude really managed to retroactively ruin this series with this lame episode
"Hur dur without love it cannot be seen"
When half of your work is lame metafiction (which you don't even clearly states whether is real or note), you are just a lame author
Yeah I have mixed feelings on umineko as a whole I sometimes like it and I sometimes hate it
I agree. He's kinda lame. same plot in every series. higu,umi,now ciconia shit
@@jolel3842 Bro didn't even finish Ciconia chapter 2 (at least). The justification was even worse, weak ass shit as always...
Who cares?
Yea episode 8 for me at least, was all about challenging our assumptions in the narrative. Two interesting pieces to the puzzle.
Why was Ange fate a multiple choice decision?
What is a catbox?
I think these are the questions key to the magic ending.
I think your position is too motivated by personal salt, which given Umineko had me on an emotional rollercoaster (not in a good way I burnt out hard mid-episode 5) the entire time, I can sympathize. Battler felt too dumb at times, The themes too in your face. Anyone who says it can't feel pretentious at times is lying or bought in.
I can be content with the argument that it was a bad approach or the execution is lacking, but overfocusing on Ryukishi insulting the fans just kills the discussion. Fact of the matter is, if you emotionally resonate with the series and accepted the emotional "logic" it threw at you around ~episode 4, it all fits. And it's not like there isn't value to that approach either. It can lead to fun discussions and storycrafting. Ironically it was learning the truth of the murders that made me realize that because I was so disappointed in them. It was my first mystery so I was expecting way crazier shit. I also came right after Higurashi and expected there to be *something* supernatural.
I assume most people who are this mad at not getting answers care more about the overall story/mystery than individual characters. But if that's the case what exactly do you feel was missing? I feel like what happened on Rokkenjima is pretty spelled out and not all that complicated. I feel like most of the characters and their personalities were as well. What remaining mysteries did you want specifically? The full life of the culprit?
I can agree it's overrated, that it's too long, that the way it tells its themes can be kind of annoying and isolating, that Ryukishi comes off as incredibly full of himself for pretty basic stuff here, but ultimately I don't get that complaint in particular. I DO think the manga is better but it doesn't really change a lot. If the episode bothers you that much so should the entire story imo.
in your opinion what do you think would have made the story not overrated and deserving of its praise
do you think entire narratives have to be changed or the story just needs some editing here and there
yesss i feel like no one is willing to criticize umineko. i loved the series as a whole, but most of it was wayyyy too slow, and the halloween party in ep 8 was absolutely the worst offender. in higurashi i loved every second of the slice of life scenes because of the characters, but the same cant be said for umineko...
@@jasmine____23 dealing with Umineko simps is simultaneously frustrating and hilarious
nah the slice of life scenes in higurashi were also too slow
Honestly the overly slow pacing the only major issue I have with umineko, the VN has a lot of minor problems but nothing really bug enough to ruin the narrative (unlike the last higurashi animes ... )
Ange just failed to understand part 8 as much as he failed to understand saya no uta
@@joaquinjovanenot slow as the umineko ones
this is unironically the funniest thing ive ever seen me and my girlfriend are on part 8 and we cannot stop calling it "virtue signal of the golden witch" akhfajksh
How can one be so tone deaf💀
atheists hate episode 8 because it is that episode that makes them realise the whole story was an argument in favour of faith. the "solution" to the mystery doesn't matter. 8 elevates umineko from standard fare murder mystery to a story with truly deep meaning
Dunno if it's really a thing specific to atheists, Umineko had meaning before ep8, I'm not very religious and I love Umineko all-throughout. I'd say it's pretty christian in it's philosophy but it's not like you can't appreciate its messages/themes if you are an atheist, at the end of the day it's about acceptance, love and trust for others and seeing the person behind someone's actions
jesus christ this delusion... "elevates from standard murder mystery"...
It was not even standar, it was bad.
Party was very nice, solely magic shit was tiring to even skip.
lmfao
A comment I made on a video 2 years ago seems to be relevant here, so I guess I'll write it here as well. Oh, and R07 fanatics - take your meds before reading, please;
The problem with Umineko Chiru is that despite what most people think Ryukishi07 probably didn't write the series alone. I forget the name of the guy, but he worked with Ryukishi07 and according to some he came up with most of the elaborate mysteries and tricks. The problem is... he died during the production of one of the Chiru Episodes (or even before, after the question arcs were complete). Because of that a lot of people theorize that without the guy, Ryukishi07 didn't have a satisfying and complex solution to the mystery which the fans really wanted and couldn't come up with a satisfying solution to the mystery that grew way too complex for him, so he grew increasingly frustrated with the fans' demands for a satisfying solution - a frustration that resulted in the whole obvious "demon goats=fans hungry for solutions" metaphor and the "It was a love story, not a mystery from the very beginning, don't ask for solutions that don't matter, you goats!" which really pissed off all the dedicated fans (I mean damn some Japanese fans actually managed to solve epitaph correctly before episode 7, there was a hell of a dedicated fanbase back in the day). The solution that was provided was also so underwhelming - multiple personalities and a rotating list of servant collaborators for every episode? Anyone could predict and solve this (and many did as early as after episode 4), people expected a better mind-blowing complex solution that would introduce a single impossible culprit that somehow committed all the crimes with no willing assistants... because the alternative was... underwhelming and boring. I enjoyed the ride all the way through but I can't say I feel very positively about Ryukishi07 baiting fans for 7 episodes with a mystery and then clearly insulting them for wanting a solution (in my opinion because he couldn't provide a good enough solution after all the build-up). That guy whose name I don't remember might have had a better solution in mind or might have been able to come up with one but without him, Ryukishi07 just wasn't good enough. I mean, damn, some people are still so pissed so many years later that they insist on the Rosa = Beatrice theory still being valid... and to be fair that solution doesn't violate anything and is technically more interesting and complex so...
BT was not the scenario writer for Umineko nor any of Ryuukishi's works; he was the webmaster and that's the only thing he's ever been credited for. The only impact he may have had in the story is that Ryuukishi's stated in interviews that Umineko began as a passion project, partly out of a desire to impress his friend (BT) with the riddles it presents; but that would still imply Ryuukishi is the one who came up with the mystery, not BT. You could argue BT's death left him jaded and that it affected the direction Chiru was going in, but I've only ever seen people using BT's death as a crutch to claim Ryuukishi is a hack and that BT was the true mastermind behind the question arcs and similar baloney; some doing it to justify their own pet-theories being valid pre-Chiru. This whole narrative surrounding BT is just a cope for bitter fans to reconcile their disappointment with Ryuukishi and simultaneous enjoyment of the series.
You earned my sub. Great Video.
I just finished reading it and i don't get bro like wtf
W. In my opinion Ep1 was the best episode in the saga. it had this horror higurashi mixed with blair witch project horror climate. i think this what should umineko follow not this mystery nonsense. Also in answer arcs they ruined beatrice (Sayo,Kanon,Shannon) charachter like they are the same person, better explanation was shown in ep2
I think at that point if they went the full horror mystery route they could have just done and adaptation of the book " and then there were none" which episode 1 was clearly inspired by
Umineko was never supposed to be a horror story read Higurashi if you want a horror story
what's with all the horror aspect from the Question Arcs then though?
@@sukashi_0901 umineko eliminates the horror aspects and makes it clear as day when the Kanon vs goat scene happens in EP 2 that that is not the direction it intends going on and most horror elements are gone and Higurashi is where ryikishi putted his atmospheric ambience at Higurashi and later explored his characters more in Kai, is umineko overrated kinda but it isn't what I would call a "horror" story
@@Juanpablofanasito850 i watched higurashi alredy. And that horror aspect is what makes higurashi better then umineko
VN readers really be getting offended over everything no wonder everyone views us as soft weirdos. At the end of the day Im not gonna care about a opinion made from some one whos favorite vns are basically just mid rom coms
Out of curiosity, what are your favorite visual novels then?
Also, I have plenty of non romcom in my top favs like Sharin no Kuni, Ever17, Symphonic Rain, Criminal Border, Nukitashi, Bokuten, etc
I came back to check the comments a day later and the ryukishitards are seething with rage. Love to see it.
@@HanSDevXhi dude I find you in TH-cam for a second time
@@Juanpablofanasito850 Want an autograph? :P
At least those are not glorified pretentious crap
Damn you talk fast. To be honest, I hate Ryukushi's pacing, I feel like we can easily cut 20-25% of overall text and still have concrete story. I agree with you that Erika is the best girl, for me she carried episodes 5-6, I absolutely hated that Battler Christ like scene in ep 5 were he comes back to life and solves the mystery. It left a bad taste in my mouth. I actually stopped reading around midways of episode 7, cause I was getting tired and not enjoying story at all. No worries though, I spoiled myself wayback. Which once more left soury taste in my mouth. The whole episode 8 debasco, I agree with JP fandom it feels like a pretentious disrespect to the reader. Like someone mentioned episode 8 is very much based on faith and believe. (From what I saw on TH-cam videos) However, Umineko as a whole heavily uses Christian particularly Catholic influences and the magic system is clearly based on western esoterism. For example, the whole (demons, stakes, Supernatural) are based on Lesser Key of Solomon. I wouldn't be surprised that the magic seals and symbols indeed come from Lesser Key. Episode 8 Ange vs Bern battle (saw on TH-cam) has heavy biblical undertones. Despite my overall dislike, I commend Ryukushi for actually researching and exploring stuff outside his cultural boundaries. In this regard, he done great job.
I Slightly caved into youtuber talk
episode 5 is my favorite but everything after is mid to bad
Episode 6 certainly when the narrative style changed a lot
And then he also ruined higurashi with that utterly pointless sotsugou
Haven't watched those, but based on what I hear I'm not particularly interested
I saw basically everything after Kai (and maybe Rei) as the typical shallow fan service money grab
@@AngeVNsdo you mean you see kai and rei as money grabbing crap? Because if that's what you mean then i can't take you seriously anymore, but yeah aside from these 2, the rest of the higurashi content is pure garbage if that's what you mean
@@LeafSouls nope Kai and Rei def not moneygrabbing! Tho Rei was arguably unnecessary
@@AngeVNs ye maybe ur right but it was good tho
It's a shame you're using loaded phrases like "virtue signaling" cuz i mostly agree with EP 8 being a dud. I don't mind the mystery being kept vague but in that case, it should've ended with EP 7 (ideally on a happier note). EP 8 meanders because it's constrained by R07 hiding the truth. The manga did it a lot better.
I respect your opinion, but I disagree with a lot of your points - 1) characters weren't fighting "for no reason" just because you may have failed to see the reason. 2) I still don't get what virtue signaling you're talking about. You keep saying it, but not explaining it.
Characters weren't fighting "for no reason"? Say it in red!
@@TomatOgorodow *in red* Characters weren't fighting "for no reason"
They were tho?
The whole "ange summoning goats to destroy magic realm" was dumb
It was her choice, battler fighting against her after giving her that choice is just a very selfish thing.
Bernkastel also had nothing to get out of it and the fighting scenes didn't add anything to the story
They weren't even trying
Battler vs erika had so many stupid rushed arguments that it made so clear that the entire ooint was fanservice.
Erika was also very out of character
@@Jrdotan Your interpretation of these events sounds too literal. That whole episode was Ange's inner battle. Battler wasn't literally fighting her or trying to take away her agency. It was Battler's message to her that was causing internal turmoil. Ange summoning goats was her appealing to the public opinion in order to reject Battler's message.
Berrnkastel has as much to get out of a situation as the very concept of fate and probability has. Again, Bernkastel is not a literal entity with her own goals. She's the embodiment of the concept of uncontrollable chance, while Lambdadelta is the embodiement of the concept of working hard to increase the probability of you succeeding. When you take that into consideration, you realize what the fight between them means.
The Battler vs Erika fight was coupled with the Ange vs Beatrice fight for a reason. Ange vs Beatrice was Ange dealing with her feelings that the culprit (the Witch) created the catbox and made it so that Ange couldn't get her answers. The Erika vs Battler fight was the trick vs magic endings. The search for the One Truth vs Battler's message of moving on.
Like I get everyone has different interpretations of media, but I feel like the argument here is based on no interpretation. Like saying all the fights are meaningless, when there is a lot that can be read into them.
@@crazyfun95 i know what they mean, my issue is that EVERYTHING is meta so allegories are meaningless when they don't add anything to the overall theme or narrative progression.
For example, you say my issue is lacking interpretation for the fights and then describe the struggle as important because of how ange arbitrarily choose to go for public opinion and that heavily conflicted with the intentions of battler and the whole thing she learned throught her journey + throught inner thoughts based on what she learned from maria's diary
However, instead of bloating the episode of fights that didnt even try to capture high stakes or well done coreography not well ilustrated characterization
The same thing could be achieved by placing Ange against the affective memory of her parents, contrasting with the stories she heard
Seeing Ange going for the truth despite knowing that this means loosing the image she has of her father in a more abstract but directly meaningful way would be both more important to the core concept of the story, but easier to empathize with.
It also would take the spotlight directly to Ange, instead iof removing her showtime to split between all those characters in an avenger-esque finale.
In fiction metaphorical symbolism is useless because the message has no weight if it lacks finesse in its execution.
I don't agree that Ryukishi was virtue signaling, at least I don't think the video did a good job of explaining why you thought this. However, I completely agree that Episode 8 was a pretentious slap to the face that wasted the readers time. It soured me not only on Umineko as a whole but as Ryukishi as a writer. If he ever went in released a version that added the answers from the manga version into the visual novel I would be more forgiving but as it stands I consider Umineko to be an incomplete work and wouldn't recommend it. You did a good job of arguing why not giving the answers, in the Answers Arc, can be interpreted as a direct insult to the reader.
In retrospect, perhaps I overused the word "virtue signal" and didn't explain well enough
oh well.
@@AngeVNs that's kinda a big problem to just say oh well to
I don't even need to watch this to agree. I despise Chiru, and this is a time I have to agree with the Japanese AND the Westerners who read it as it was getting translated (like myself). It's only Westerners who got into it later and wasn't reading as it was going along who love it.
I personally think I dislike this even if I read Umineko for the first time now
holy based
Ah hell nah
Ange ruined the series for me. Couldn't stand her arc and whole character. So since the 4th episode, she took Maria's place as the worst one haha.
The novel was great at first but... the longer it went, the more boring it was. Ep7 was my saviour at the end, I really enioyed it only to get devastated during the 8th with lack of interest in the finale thanks to... yeah, like everything.
While I kinda like Ange, I do think her character dying in Episode 4 would have been more than good enough payoff for her.
Thank you for making this video. Umineko sucks big time. I do think westerners loves this because of Beatrices... quirks if you may call it.
Are you referring to Beatrice's "real identity"?
@@AngeVNs Yeap. Makes the westerners of a certain type identify with her even more and end up loving it just for that reason. You know what's bad? That you still have to go check the manga after reading the entire VN because shit was unclear, there is no mystery to be solved it's just a badly written mystery VN. Kara no shoujo restored my faith on the mystery genre after reading the crap that is umineko.
you receive da dumb certificate.
@@weeecalango2761 Thanks bro, im so honored and it makes me happy when ryukishi07 fanboys gets mad.
@@HanSDevX you failed so hard at understanding Ryuukishi´s work youre mad at the author. Massive L, i can tell your mind noticed there was something extremely important in the story but you lacked the background to understand it and now youre pissed. The hint is modern gnosticism.
And the story is clash Fantasy vs Mistery genre, or you could say Fiction vs Reality, but the point is, you prob shouldnt have expected a common mistery story.
Yep pretty much agree with everything you said