I was wrong: there is one aspect of Religious Freedom in China I was wrong about
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ม.ค. 2025
- Mario Cavolo is a practicing Catholic in China and he knows something I don't.
Watch this evening as he explains why I am wrong and what the reasoning behind my mistake was - it all makes sense now
Yes, Jerry, as you concluded this conversation with Mario, you commented that you like to be corrected for your "mistakes" made in what you said in your commentaries. That is a great quality of your mindset which many popular speakers do not possess. In fact, I also noticed it often during my year of following your programmes through exchanging views with you. Good on you.
Thanks Donat - I don't think it's a unique or even rare "quality" it is something we should all aspire to but not as many do, as you correctly point out!
Jerry, you have many many helpful masterpieces. If there is a nomination for a "Best Show", this is going to be very near the top for me.
Thank you - I hope others see it the same way. I'm just happy that there are people getting the messages on China's realities
Jerry u no need to prove anything. U perfect. Don't need to worries about how others ppl think of u . Not important . U r not them . U r perfect . Enjoy & be happy perfect 💗💗💗💗💗 🙏💪❤️
Thank you Jerry for speaking the truth
Mario Cavolo. Most delighted to see you again. You've been away far too long.
Great to see Mario again and as your guest speaker！😊
Glad you enjoyed it David, thank you
Please take care jerry.. ❤️
Thank you both 🙏👍🙏
Religion is personal . Be happy . Please don't care others think .b🙏🙏🙏💪👍💕💗❤️
My dad was a member of the Friends Meeting, aka "Quaker." My mother sometimes took me to the meeting which consists of one hour of silence while the members go within & commune with god. As a child I was only asked to sit quietly, sometimes I had a small paper & pencil to practice making letters. Other Sundays my mom took me to a huge greenhouse filled with exotic plants. She said this was her idea of communing with god. I grew up with an appreciation of both views.
A great appreciation - I actualy like the idea of a silent "church" meeting - it would suit me a lot better than the ceremonies I grew up with
Just my perspective: I was brought up Lutheran. In 7th grade, we had a brief "World Religions" course in our Social Studies class. It was about a week, learning about MANY different religions in a very broad sense. I personally believe this was a good thing, but I enjoy learning about these things. I can understand why it would offend many believers of any religion, but I was absolutely fascinated by it. It's where I learned that Jewish, Christian, and Muslim beliefs are all "Abrahamic" religions and share similar beginnings. This helped me question world events later on. It also had a section on Egypt, and we "mummified" a chicken as a school function. It was a real formative part of my psyche, but as I said earlier I understand why it would be frowned upon. I honestly don't know how nobody got in trouble for any of this. Religion is a touchy subject for so many people. I'm glad to know you two are happy to have friendship between different beliefs, I wish others could learn this kind of compassion for their fellow humans.
This is fascinating Brandon, I like the way your school or your community handled it, that makes a lot of sense
The trouble about religion is that is ALL about belief…. When I realised that the brain is capable of TRULY believing in a FLAT EARTH , then it was easy to understand that belief in ANYTHING is perfectly logical ! I now know why most of humanity NEEDS a God. Take your pick….. I no longer have this need but I would NEVER try to change a persons “faith”. Whichever one.
China ? White men's creation of Christianity borrowing heavily from Jewish Torah.
Why should China people be Christians to be decided by foreign white men mandates and "control".
The argument is the same why Eastern religions are promoted in western society.
The social impact ain't well to do white men's religion.
Look at Philippines as well as ex colonial nations and people around the world. None of these people nor nations become better to be on par with Western Christian nations.
Christianity is a factor in retarding nationalism for native people to excel.
For the mandate of natives comes from the western white control.
Church ain't the champion for non whites natives people's prosperity.
@@MicheleLLOYD-bk2mt I always believed that the flat earth theory originates from people's distrust of the western govt and their media, to the point that they lose their capability of judging what is right or wrong based on science and logic. It is as if they want to prove that everything said by the media and the govt is wrong, to the point that they would say the exact opposite of what is being taught.
Great to here Mr. Cavolo sharing his own first hand experience....appreciated
It’s like in our church here in the US, the kids stay for the prayer and singspiration then they’ll go to Sunday school while the adults stay for service.
I'd wished that my family wasn't that effective in bringing me up Catholic.
My family including my aunts, uncles, cousins, all relatives are Catholic, devoted Catholic. Abiding to Catholic rules, we ABANDONED our ancestors and lost most of our CHINESE cultural practices.
I only realized that was a great loss to me, losing my Chinese heritage for most of my life. And I've wasted most of my 74 years fighting to get free of the bondage Catholicism had on me. But I could not re-learn and re-experience many colourful and meaningful Chinese cultures lost because my family followed straight Catholic practice.
That seems sad Rita, what a pity they couldn't have been a little more pragmatic about it - this is one of the things I heard about in HK, if you wanted to be baptised, it meant foregoing all previous traditions and cultures - for me, that's a terrible sin - even the Brits were allowed to keep traditions and culture that came from pagan days and we still do - Christmas and Easter are not Christian celebrations, they were pagan rites that were adopted to make Christianity more acceptable
Even our weekdays come from old Gods: Saturn, the Sun, the Moon, Twis, Woden, Thor, Freya - most of them Viking gods. What a pity the later Christians were far more exclusive - imagine a Catholicism where your own ancestors were as important as your god!!!
The CPC leaders know what they are doing.
This is a great debate as ancient as the world. Faith is as important to personal life as seeking values and hope gives meaning to each entity within the society. Meanwhile the state is trying to organize that society according to tangible rules and regulations. The essence of any significant debate lays in the overlapping of one with respect to the other. Faith lead the way and commanded order to the village till the village grew over the limits of sustainability, leading to wars between villages. This broke the religious order because churches needed to play the role of the state and often weaponized itself to do so. In so doing they violated their moral ground and lost credibility of their followers, because you cannot teach peace and wage war. The lords seized this opportunity to separate civic duty and faith as symbiotic entities that could only coexist as long as they did not violate the boundaries of a secular state. This way many different religions, in theory at least, could coexist within a single state without dissention. It's been observed that Christianity has insidiously worked together with the state to prepare the ground for invasion and ethnic cleansing of the native Indian population of the Americas, Africa, Australia, East Asia, including China... through their missionaries of course. So the Catholic and Christian churches are by far not so innocent political entities. Think "Manifest Destiny" what it's all about, think crusades and realize that the Church can be used as a very powerful virus disguised as a charitable entity. You let your guard down and now they know your language, your clashes and all your weaknesses and in no time your country is under the control of foreign power that flip your government in favor of international oligarch interests that ransacked the country of it's vital resources. They vampirize your nation under the name of their god's send democratic values. Now can you blame the CCP for being suspicious of any church expansion? Now, let's nuance this a bit: Once upon a time the Buddhists lead the resistance against the decadent Imperial state corruption. So the emperor went to war against the monks. and in this case is was legitimate for the Buddhist temples to support for the population insurgency. All in all time has proven that the balance is needed between faith and state as long as it profits the nation as a whole. Sovereignty can only be achieved as a result of unifying the people no matter if it is the CCP or the Church. They must serve the people of China and not the reverse, because if the reverse occurs, we end up with the corruption of a system in which a 0.01% enslaves the 99.99% of their constituents. History knows better; the truth always lies in the balance of power.
Great points, thank you for adding them, I'm 100% in agreement as I was reading I was nodding along to each new point - especially that last on the 0.1% enslaving the rest - we're seeing it now in the USA and the religion is money, we say it in Tibet until the Chinese government tolld the Dalai Lama it couldn't be accepted and must change, the rest, as they say is history!
Thank you Jerry and Mario! So informative! Jerry you are not arrogant at all. You are confident. It’s different. Arrogant folks do not apologize publicly. You just did in spite of an honest misunderstanding.
Cheers, I appreciate that Honeybadger - seems you really like this one!
@@jerrystakeonchina799 I love ALL your videos! I’m actually in the middle of listening to Lee, Fernando and you chatting about EV as we speak. Thank you for your tireless efforts in sharing the real truths and debunking smearing propaganda. Xie xie Jerry.
Great show!!! You both are telling the China stories by backing up with historical facts. I gained so much knowledge from you video. It was educational!!!
Thanks Raymond
Thanks for the clarification. I learned a bit about religious practices in China as well as in the western countries.
As a practising Catholic i really appreciated this chat. Thank you
Thank you too Silly
Chikdren should be allowed to decide when they have become of age. It's sensible. It's not wrong!
BTW, ancient Chinese do use gunpowder in wars. Three Kingdom period master strategist Zhuge Liang used a very primitive firm of land mines. However by far we use it for celebrations and IMHO, that should be the only non industrial use for the blasted thing. Side note, the massive amount of firecrackers and fireworks that rural China uses during CNY is a bit worrying to be honest 😅
Yes, I was aware of that, I made a video about it, about 2 years ago - you can probably still find it if you looked hard enough :-))
Very interesting conversation. I learned about Hong Xiuquan in university, he failed his imperial civil service exam three times, and he had fell into depression. In Hong's 2nd attempt, he ran into a Christian missionary named Edwin Stevens. He might have gotten his ideas about his warped version of Christianity from that man. When Hong had a psychological breakdown, he made up some story that he was the younger brother of Jesus. From then, he started his rebellion which caused massive devastation in Southern China and the loss of tens of millions of people.
Indoctrination of any religion at a very young age is more like brainwashing, because like Mario said people are incapable of understanding what is being preached. The law that they have in China is reasonable in my opinion. My ex-girlfriend was a very religious person, and I can say with certainty that she devoted too much time to church. I think her parents indoctrinated her to being a Christian at a very young age, and her sister indoctrinated her children at a young age also. It is very difficult to have a rational conversation with a person that is fully indoctrinated in any religion. The answers to life's problem isn't about believing in prayer, it is about making the right choices.
It's an interesting story and one which should sound a warning to all countries - relgious freedom shouldn't be total freedom
One thing I am most grateful to my father was he pulled me out from my Catholic primary school (8 years started from kindergarten!) and dumped me to a Buddhist school 🤪 Then I was 2 years in a Catholic school for matriculation class and then into the college affiliated with the US United Church, ending up an atheist😂. I agree that Catholic schools may have better discipline, and I appreciate one young Catholic nun told us “your conscience is also a belief and actually a good one.” 🤩
Wait a sec, from my early limited knowledge of Catholicism, baptism is just the entry level, you need “confirmation” to “reinstate” to become a Christian. I remember classmates needed to stay for classes Saturday after school for those preparations and I think that holy sacrement is some time around Easter. And before Easter they need to go to retreat thing like a summer camp thing.
I was confirmed, we did it all through the school as I went to Catholic primary schools., there was no need for extra curricula activities
I think your Nun was right - I follow my conscience too, it seems to do ok for me.
I recently made a video and wrote an article (not for YT but for a business client) about doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do - ethics in leadership and management is hugely important
Freedom from religion is a beautiful thing. So many abuses on children take place from institutions of religion. Not to mention the terror concepts like eternal punishment afflict on the minds of people of any age. I see this as a positive thing, protecting children from obscurantism and mental abuse by cult leaders.
Agreed, people say China was wrong to ban Falungong, but when people start dying because of them, there really is something wrong with it as a religion
@@jerrystakeonchina799 half of the interesting thing of Western History is the throwing off of the yoke of religious chains on societal norms. Which sadly it stopped doing as soon as the Communists proposed a deeper rejection of obscurantism. The Western capitalists broke with the secular rationalism of their ascent, and now are politically running on the vapors of their own descent as they fund and support religious fundamentalist groups at home and abroad.
Taiping Rebellion: The "disaffected" and religion, that's the work of missionaries.
That's the point and the reason why missionaries are not allowed in China
Generally@@jerrystakeonchina799 it is worrisome when a religion demands your "soul", one true God and all that. I like to think that our "souls" belong to each other, regardless of faith/practices.
We have to understand the historical aspects of this topic
@26:00 - the cpc had a lot of supports from religious groups during the civil war
I personally knew a catholic priest who became a communist sympathiser during that period - he was one of my teachers when I was 12 years old, he was based in Shanghai but lived in rural Jiangsu and got caught up in the long march for a while, so I know you're right, in his case though his Catholic church did not support, they had to pay a ransom to get him released but by the time he was released he was a staunch communist and still a Catholic priest - I met him in about 1971/2 and thought he was the best teacher in the world
@jerrystakeonchina799 Wow! Jerry, I'm very impressed that you really take time to reply to all 'replies!! Imagine the time this takes! From each reply, I learned more of you. (I knew you replied to my response on Mario, I will reply to that, soon.) You made this human connection 'net', full of humility and pure 'love'. I am very touched! I admired you and your teacher!
Oh no! During the BCCI money laundry scandal crisis in 1991, there was “stories” about Vatican involvement in funding anti-government guerrilla forces. I remember there was a map tracking the complicated route of the laundry process, and Hollywood was also part of the game!😂
There was indeed and there were also some very suspicious deaths around that time too - includine one Pope!!!
Jerry you weren’t wrong, it was just a case of being misinformed or misunderstood. But a big man never hesitate to apologize. That’s why you are well respected and why we love you!
Thank you - I was in fact wrong, the policy is different to my statement, but, as is normal in China, the reality on the ground in some places, is different from the policy sent down from Beijing - I've seen kids in church here and thy look Chinese but might be Korean (usually you can tell them apart because the Koreans have different haircuts and, I hesitate to say this, but are more fashionably dressed in a lot of cases) and Mario has seen kids and even takes his own 12 year old to church, but he admits, he hasn't seen another youngster in the church.
When someone says kids are banned from church, my answer should have been: yes, but... instead of no they are not. In that respect, I take responsibility for the mistake and own it but I'm leaving the video up there with a comment in the description to explain
@@jerrystakeonchina799 that is noble. I was a devout baptist from 94 to circa 2008 and subsequently became agnostic. Similar experience as yours.
A few corrections: HONG Xiuquan’s home town Hua County actually was in Guangzhou, now part of Guangzhou Municipality and he and his gang started in Jin Tian(meaning Gold Paddy) in Guangxi Province, west neighbouring province to Guangdong. Hong did not start the Boxer Rebellion (1899-1901). His was the Tai-ping Rebellion or Tai Ping Heaven State (1850-1864) What he did with the bare knowledge of Christianity was similar to FLG using QiGong as a start. However Communist China down-played the religion aspect and label it as peasants rebellion against the ruling class. ROC govt and Chiang also rectified. In 1920’s it was a criminal offence to address the rebellion as a riot (because both have the just cause in overthrowing the Qing govt😂). Hong’s concept of setting up a Heaven family where everyone is brother or sister has a touch of communism but gradually vanished after they gained foothold. My view is that a country needs to breed a vast population of selfless upright conscientious and knowledgeable people as its base, otherwise whether heavenly order or democracy by a small group of “elite” will definitely steer towards corruption and turmoil. This is well reflected in Chinese history.
Watch again ltbriar, I did mention the two were very different things, I mentinoed that Hong was born in what is now Huadu, I also mentioned Guangxi, where the headquarters of the Taiping movement was in Nanning.
The Boxer Rebellion, to my knowledge was not aimed at bringing down the Qing Dynasty and even had the support and endorsment of the Dowager Empress - I could be wrong, especiall as my knowledge is mostly from Western historians but I am aware that it was the 8 Nations Alliance that brought it down, not the Qing military and the Qing Government needed to pay reparations to the 8 Nations, which would all indicate that it was a movement in support of, or at least with the support of the Qing.
@@jerrystakeonchina799
I remember you said so and double checked the transcript. At 1:09:58 you did mix up Hong as the guy who started the Boxer Rebellion. It’s probably a slip of tongue and it’s tough on a foreigner to remember all the names, events in the history of another country, just as I can’t remember how many queens Henry VIII married.
As well my error for not making it clear as I wrote. By referring “both” are overthrowing the Qing govt, I meant Tai Ping Rebellion and ROC led by Sun Yat San, NOT Tai Ping and the Boxers. That’s why in 1920’s they prohibited addressing Tai Ping Rebellion as riot movement. You’re right that the Boxers were against the priests and clergymen and the Qing’s nobles believed that they were spiritually protected by spells which were nothing but certain circus tricks like swallowing fire or walking harmlessly over burning charcoals.
Furthermore, Hong’s army took Nanjing (not Nanning) March 19, 1853, 2 years n 2 months after they started in Jin Tian, Guangxi. They built palaces for Hong and Yang, one of his Lords in Nanjing, which were ruined when Qing army reoccupied the city. Qing govt later reconstructed the site into the office of the governor in charge of the then Jiangnan (a district being southern bank of Yangtze River covering Jiangsu, Anhui, and Shanghai) and Jiangxi. Despite the reconstruction, a lot of the Tai Ping palace relics were kept intact. When Qing was overthrown in 1911, the governor’s office was shortly used by the ROC government as the provisional President House and Sun Yat San lived there shortly before he stepped down and agreed to pass the presidency to Yuan Sikai (who later self-declared as Emperor Dec 12, 1915 but last only for 102 days as it was widely objected. So this is another linkage between Tai Ping army and the initial ROC government.
The so called mistake has done NO dent on your credibility at all. I trust you always speak to the best of your knowledge and beliefs with utmost sincerity and honesty.
Thank you
Very interesting dialogue. I too went to a Catholic school but my parents were not Catholic. They didn't really know what 'indoctrination' went on there but I still remember... Since then I've explored various religions in my travels and academically. As for spiritually no special comment.
Thanks Angela, interesting that your parents never knew, if it was me, I'd have been making sure they knew :-))
@@jerrystakeonchina799 British people play a game of who knows or doesn't know I think. Learned in childhood clearly. I don't live there for a long time because I got tired of playing the game. No need of mass surveillance although it exists there if course.Any thoughts Jerry?
The law not allowing religious workers knocking doors was introduced by Ming dynasty in 14th century. The Law of Ming was inherited by Qing, so it went go. The enforcement of that rule finally met its end in reality around 1830s, when American, disguising as British btw as the US not yet been officially introduced to Qing dynasty, protestant missionaries came.
I didn't know that, thank you
I am glad you come to understand a little more about religion through Mario. I had been following you forva while and i was shocked to learn that you had turned anti-China....now i know what your plan is
I've never turned anti-China - I'm not sure what you're referring to but it seems you've either misunderstood me or are attempting to undermine me - not sure what that would be but it isn't welcome either way
I'm not even sure what my own plan is, so I'm not sure how you would know
Even china is from China, LOL.
Renaissance was triggered by Mongol Invasion.
Importation of Chinese technology + Exodus of Greeks from byzantine to Western Europe, all due to Mongols coming from the East.
So Western Europe was met with Chinese + Greek cultures at the same time, while they were in dark ages, sparking innovative thoughts.
Greeks are not one of ancient civilizations, they are part of Egyptian civilization.
Most famous Greek philosophers, scientists, mathematicians went to Egypt and Studied there in youth.
That include Pythagoras, Aristotle, Archimedes, Draco, and Solon.
Yes, China did come from China
This is such a lovely conversation, long, but I have thought about these issues on and off by now (we are probably of the same age).
If I am anything, I would have been a Catholic but I am not sure why other than I went to Catholic school in my youth ... college-academic talk and all that. But I share the same sentiment as Curro. Both Jerry and Mario came from Catholic families, which means that being Catholic is in part their "culture" for lack of a better work. To outsiders, who can only look at being a Catholic as a choice of religion. I think that there's a difference -- Catholics by acculturation vs by choice. Maybe younger adults need more time to make this choice. So much here, so contemporary, ... a must watch!
Thank you
The discussion dances around the question who makes the decision for the children, the government or the parents?
Not at all, the information is there, the government makes the decision that the kids must be adults before they can go to church. But, at the same time, it allows a degree of leeway and doesn't impose that decision - Mario is a perfect example, he takes his son to church, but is the only parent in his current church to do so, no one stops him - his former Church in Shanghai, had lots of children there too.
The decision is made by the government
When I was in Wuhan, I attended local Chinese churches (open to all but ministered by Chinese pastors and speakers. I also attended a foreign church with admission only by foreign passports, ministered and preached by foreign pastors and preachers. There is a third variant: the clandestine underground or family churches, with undisclosed locations, managed by foreign church workers who entered China on social or tourist visa. China does crackdown on these churches as the church workers are violating the conditions of their visa. Besides, China is wary of foreign church leaders preaching to Chinese converts given its historical past.
I wonder whether Father Mario is a Chinese citizen to be able to preach to a Chinese congregation? Or is the Catholic Church treated differently from the Protestsnt?
Mario isn't a preist, he was referring to several priests in the conversation but he himself is a businessman and academic.
Your experience in Wuhan is similar to mine in Zhongshan but I've never heard of a church for foreigners only. There were definitely some "private" churches going on but the people I knew who were in them were genuinely devout Christians without any agenda other than to worship their God without outside interference. At least that's the people I knew, I don't know of others but experience in HK proves there were some intelligence operations run through church leaders, I'd assume there would have been others in the Mainland too and I fully approve of the government restricting them
Mario, explains more about the Easter Vigil than my priest ever did.
Mine too
Good evening every one wherever. I the Russian Orthodox Church families attend the service with their children. China is wonderfull in putting people first.
You may be interested to check some websites to see how the holy light appears in Bethlehem Orthodox Church at midnight every year on Easter day ....
Thank you - I'm a big fan of the orthordox churches, much more so than the more modern evangelicals!
Hello Jerry, I don't think you were wrong, you simply looked at it from defferent perspective.
In terms of the policy I was wrong, in terms of what actually happens I was correct but the statement I made several months ago was that kids are not banned - technically they are but there is some consideration given to families, especially when there is a large foreign community there
Good evening everyone … there is one issue which should be taken into consideration is that when we are calling someone a Christian usually, we are referring to different denominations and churches. The point that I'm trying to make is that out of the hundreds if not thousands of different churches which are calling themselves Christian there is only one where the founder, he is Jesus Christ himself. All the other churches have a founder which is an ordinary person. You can check this from their historical and from theological point of view and you will see let only one church has Jesus as its founder. Therefore, there is a fundamental difference when comparing with those churches created my ordinary men or women, and the difference being that one is an original Christian Church, and all the others are heretical or heresies. I will leave to you to make your own conclusion and you can verify this from Theological and historical sources.
Well said Yiannis
Jerry lost weight . 🙏💪
Wow, you noticed??? Thank you
I started a new regime 3 weeks ago and am down 6.2KG so far - I'm working on getting 20kg off over the next 6 months
@@jerrystakeonchina799 I'm on a carnivore diet and also do fasting. Working great for me. What method are you using?
Your guest never need to lose his cultural believes. All he had to choose is between Catholicism/Christianity or not. But, as Chinese, we had to ABANDONE our traditional, ancestral, cultural ancestral worship, to follow the First and Second Commandments.
That is asking us to give up most of our Chinese identity.
That's telling you that your ancestors were Jewish not Chinese. 😂😂😂
You Guys been Tibet and Nepal 🇳🇵.
Not yet, but I know plenty who have and I know the Western media (and politicians) lies about absolutely everything I do know about China - I don't suspect my experience in Tibet when I get there will be much different from my many trips to Xinjiang
Jerry, not “sky flower” which means smallpox! 😂 Firework in Chinese is ”烟火” smoky fire or “烟花” smoky flower. Smoky fire is used mainly in Putonghua and Smoky flower is used in Cantonese and HK.
Thank you for the correction
Chinese policies with regards to religion are there to protect the people and there culture and religious beliefs. If it wasn’t for certain policies the Uyghurs Muslims in Xinjiang would have been practicing a totally different Islam and their local cultures and practices would have been changed.
Agreed, this is apparent in Inner Mongolia where the Mongolian script is still practiced and widely used, I've heard of people frm Mongolia coming to Hohhot to learn how to write it
Anyone below the age of, say 18, are not adults, and therefore have not yet developed the mental capacity of critical thinking for what will be essentially a life changing adherence.
If they're not allowed drink, or operate motor vehicles or join the armed forces until their majority (meaning 18 yo), why then are the adults pushing THEIR religious believes on these impressionable youngsters and essentially forcing them into this or that religious pigeonbox? Parents doing this is bad enough, but total strangers doing it? Heck naw!
I agree with you, I know others that don't
Anothe great vid.👍👍👍👍👍
Thanks 👍
I thought this would be boring, thanks
Glad it wasn't John, thank you
The Boxer Revolution led to the Eight Foreign armies invading Bijan.
As Mario rumbles about why he wanted to prepare his son for his future by bringing him to the church…… I wondered what Jerry thinks of that?! Mario should give his son the liberty to learn, to grow to decide whatever he wants to be. Layers of baptism, first communion, doctrine teachings ….. will not make a perfect man, but, a superficial man!
Very wise thoughts Catherine, I was "Mario's Son" 50 or so years ago. I've met his son, he really is a very nice, polite, intelligent young man, despite being so young. Mario and his wife have done a great job.
I don't know what decisions the lad will make, but if he's like me, he will go on to reject the spiritual but live by the ideals of Christianity, the good parts at least. If he is like Mario, he will accept his God and live with the spiritual as well as the ideal - either way, it won't be a bad thing for him - I had two kids, neither of them was forced to accept religion, both of them grew up to be upstanding and, even if I do say so myself, outstanding, adults - we didn't need God in our lives to achieve that.
What I was thinking was, each to his own but I'm glad I'm not Mario's son :-))
@jerrystakeonchina799 Jerry, even though we are like distant stars away, but, I feel so lucky to know you. Thank you so much for taking the time to answer all our comments. I know where you stand on churches and spirituality.....I am also a non-church-goer, now..... but my love for mankind has not changed. Just wish and hope Mario's son finds the right path for himself. He is so young.....
I think infant baptizing started because of high infant mortality in the past, so pious parents of course wanted their baby to have salvation and be blessed by the lord. Salvation for if they didn't make it, they are going to heaven, and blessed by the lord that they shall make it into adulthood and live a full beautiful life. It makes sense.
That does make sense - but at the same time, it shouldn't cause the child to be the property of one God
If one looks at the long course of Chinese history up to even today, religion has always thrived. What's different from the West is that religion is excluded from within the Chinese government...even when an emperor was very devoted. While there had been conflicts between religious groups, even persecutions by the government from time to time (as with any country), nothing to the extent of the kind in the West or the Middle East. The famous Ming Dynasty fantasy novel "Journey to the West" reflect a world where Taoist and Buddhist myths and practices exist side by side. Martial arts pop novels, which can be very "Han" nationalistic, frequently referenced Muslim minority schools positively. Every New Year, Qingming, or other traditional holidays, people of all different faiths perform essentially Taoist rituals without batting an eye. What the Chinese government fears is not religion, but "cults" that cause chaos, especially during times of invasion, weakness, or natural disasters. Taiping was just one such examples. China had recognized that early. Even before China was truly unified under First Emperor of China, the state had effectively removed shamanistic and cults from within the court 3000 years ago following the fall of the Shang Dynasty. "Cults" simply cannot be tolerated, China or elsewhere. The young must be protected from "indoctrination" in school (no different than the US really), but also missionaries or other underground churches. Community ritual is fine, or what the parents want to impart to their children, but indoctrination and final acceptance of faith is better left to the individual as an adult.
Absolutely correct, they son't want another Taiping Rebellion, that's for sure and Falung Gong was a danger of creating that
Hi Jerry, nice interesting talk. With regards to noodles or spaghetti question it’s proven that Chinese were the first ones who made noodles. The art of making noodles didn’t stay in China but also moved to Middle East and it wouldn’t surprise me that it made it’s way to other areas. Earliest forms of Noodles in China dates back more than 4000 years ago. So No, Marco Polo didn’t steal the art of making noodles from China. And I wouldn’t call it stealing because the art of noodles developed differently from area to area.
Great point, there's no evidence that Italians got it from anywhere else but it almost certianly did travel and there's no reason to think it didn't start in China, the civilisation is certainly long enough but no way Marco Polo took it from here - there's also a rumour that he took the Nang bread from Xinjiang and developed it as a pizza too - equally as fun a stroy to spread but also not true
Preparation for an adult baptism is similar in Malaysia and is not unique to China. The Catholic Church has been around for 2000 years. The church now is not the same then and did not develop without a context and historicity. The Nicene creed is the core of the faith while the living out of that faith changes with time like culture in China has evolved through 1000s of years.
Very true and thank you for sharing Malaysia's perspective - I've been there several times, only for visits, with none of them being longer than about 10-12 days but I"ve always found a high level of acceptance and tolerance and always enjoyed my time there
@@jerrystakeonchina799 That's great. I've visited China for 10+ years (until 2018) during school term holidays. I love the beautiful/historical places I've visited from East to West. I don't speak Mandarin. I'm what some describe as a "banana" Chinese.
Being westernised I'm not exactly comfortable dealing with the Chinese people who don't follow the "English" mannerisms/sensibilities. LOL. But I do find them kind and caring, like everywhere else in the world.
Personally I find Malaysia a paradise EXCEPT for the politics which is "played" mainly along race and religion by corrupt forces.
Lastly I'm very grateful you have this channel to shed light on China. Although I'm ethnically Chinese I consider myself a citizen of the world - all peoples' and their countries' welfare are of concern to me. Afterall we are all of just ONE race.
You aroused my interest in Chinese history. I saw the eight-nation alliance on TH-cam, where the 8 western nations invaded China in 1900. Some TH-cam videos described these western nations going into China to rescue the Christians as a reason for the invasion. There are videos that try to put a positive spin on the story. Is it possible to create a video to tell us the truth. I think it will help others understand China. Thank you!!!
Thanks Raymond, in the West, that's exactly how they saw it - Christians and in particular missionaries were being targeted by Chinese martial artists - the fact that the missionaries were not welcome and were "stealing" land that belonged to Chinese people seemed to be over the top of their heads!
I'm working on a couple of projects that are historical in nature, one of them is going to encompass something like this - but I work entirely alone except for a little editing help from a couple of students - it's a long process but it is on my to do list and in fact already started - at any given time, I have something lie 20-30 projects which I think will make good videos but I can only get one or two a week out - by the time I've done that, the list of projects has grown by a couple so it's a never ending process for me.
One of the video scripts I'm working on right now is about religion and divinity in China and I can include a small part of this and the Taiping rebellion too - just to set the record straight
There are many church groups that do not baptise children.
Agreed, but there are few that exclude them too
What I've told Christian friends who have a problem with the kinds of restrictions the Chinese government places on Christian pracitce is this: A "White Christian" nation attacked China in the 1800s in order to force them to allow the sale of Opium on Chinese streets. That's easier for me to explain than the Taiping or Boxer rebellions, although I might make mention of those things too. I'm simply trying to impress on them that time & good will might make a difference to China's policy in the future... If Christians start acting like Christians.
There's no way anyone I know would think very highly of breaking up home churches and may even react that accusations of "money laundering" are merely a government ploy. Just going on how I know US Christians often think. All I can do is simply explain China's side of it as best as I can. I take things like this pretty serious, because believing in our innate "goodness" outside of the grace of God is what I think had a hand in leading us to these endless wars that I'm sick of by now, and I know others of all walks of like will back me up on.
So if I can grasp what the two of you are saying: There is a legal restriction on the instruction in the Faith children in China can recieve, yet it's often not enforced, and some churches get around it by holding separate services for the kids. Does that sum it up about right? ETA: I just now caught the part about parents giving such instruction towards the 1st communion of their kids - That Chinese policies prefers that over a mor institutionalized from of instruction at a younger age. Correct?
The only thing I find factually incorrect is the notion that Batpists want you to be a legal adult according to the law before you can recieve instruction towards conversion. If I may, I'll direct those who're interested to the Wikipedia page on Believer's Baptism > Age of accountability. Generally believer's baptism is practiced by two groups: Anabaptists - the forunners of the Mennonite & Amish groups, and Baptists. Most maistream churches these days have adopted this view. Not everyone agrees precisely on what age does one become responsible for their own actions, but our practice is generally believed to be based on the Jewish tradition of Bar Mitzvah, which is given to children at age 12 or 13. This makes it the oldest expression of how these issues are handled among the people of Yahweh ✌
Yes Kevin, you pretty much summed it up, there is a policy, not a law, so it's not strictly adhered to - there are also "sunday Schools".
I love the line... when Christians start acting like Christians!
2000 years ago it was the custom all over the world to divide by age in three categories, children, young adults learning responsabilitie and adults. The age of puberty was the line dividing childhood from adulthood. Religious practice was you start practicing at puberty, usually around 12 yo. A strange thing happened during the industrialisation of Europe. Maybe due to some polution coming from the massive usage of Coal everywhere, the age of puberty start increasing from the 1800 to the 1900 up to 18, 21. So the age of childhood increased slowly giving rise to changes in marriage laws and mandatory schol age, drinking age, citizen age etc.. With the new pseudoscience of the 4 races this phenomenon was changed to a sign of the superiority of the white race. The European empires imposed the citizen age in all of their empire and in international laws. Until the 1900, when massive coal Usage was being replaced by massive Oil and natural gas usage, the puberty age in the western industrial world start to decrease to the natural age of around 12. The first communion was the christian version of the jewish tradition of children first participating in the ritual in the temple at puberty. The Chinese laws are base on the international (adultulthood) citizen age of 18. Only adults can have the true freedom of religion. It doesn't bode well with some organized religion that argue the parents have the duty to brainwash their children into their religious beliefs from day 1.
Great additions, thanks
Hi, thanks for this discussion on children not being allowed to attend mass (but may attend Sunday school). I am unclear about whether this is government policy or church policy does this rule apply to other kinds of Christian traditions, and does it also apply to Muslims and other religions? (That said, I think only adult males go to mosques, boys usually don’t, but I am not sure. So maybe this isn’t an issue for Muslims since their tradition discourages attendance by minors.)
My understandting is that it's a government policy that church is for adults, but the church can offer a "caretaker service" which means they would get like a Sunday School, it's for all religions - although I do know there are some Buddhist schools for kids in Tibet I also know that religion is prohibited in all schools everywhere
When my (Christian)teachers asked me what I want to be when I grow up. My answer till I was 13 was a priest, Jesuits to be precise for similar reason of going to all corners of the world to spread the words of God like Jerry said about when he was a kid. However I grew out of it for a far less noble reason than Jerry. I kind of find out I like making money so much that I would probably become a TV Evangelist. So might as well spare the church of that. I mean I kind of felt bad for those merchants the Lord chased out of the Temple 😂. I get why He did it but I still feel for those merchants 😅. I know, I am terrible. 😛
haha, yes, less noble but very honest Marc. cheers
That rule does not apply to foreigners.
Jerry! Jerry!🎉🎉 Jerry said something wrong about China in a video!?! Have you thought about working for CNN, they do it all the time! I hear there is an opening since Ronna McDaniel left. 😊
Keep up all of your amazing work.
Cheers Andrew - I can make mistakes, even Jesus said so!!!
@@jerrystakeonchina799 great video
We have separation of church and state so there’s no talk of religion in all public school in the US.
This is not what I've heard but I hope it's true, it ought to be, especially in a multicultural society, whihc the USA, particularly the coasts should be
Later on, the American Christians and the Kuomintang is another wonderful can of worms.
Probably just a precaution that children may not be dragged into a cult, belief or brain washed into believing without understanding.
True
Boxer Rebellion 1899 to 1901
Thanks James - I"m good with facts, but not with figures - I knew it ended in 1901 but couldn't remember the start date
Something to ponder: should an underage person, a minor below the age of 18, be given the responsibility to decide when they can have sex change and transition into another gender, drive a car, consume alcohol at a local bar etc?
In my opinion, no, but I don't make the rules - should a 16 year old be allowed to join the army, as I did when I left school, again, the answer is no, but there we have it.
@@jerrystakeonchina799 I concur and agree with you.
So China should change its policy to adapt to foreigners or foreigners should change their attitude and adapt in a foreign land.
Very true - as people must when they go to America or the UK - the Brits are worried now that more Mosques are being build while churches are being turned into pubs and clubs!
👍👍👍👍👍👍
In USA Biden procliming EASTER SUNDAY to LGBTQ DAY / TRANSGENDER DAY, what a religiuos country, that is something for sure.
Yes, that was an interesting move
Very poor presentation from Cavolo. Cannot continue after a few minutes.
Sorry to hear that
Tibetan Buddha Dmamma shangha.
I'm not sure why you said this - is it a question or a stratmetn and what is it supposed to mean - it's a little too cryptic for me
Jesus was born in Asia. He lived in Asia and died in Asia. So Jesus is Asian. Because Jesus is God himself, so God is also Asian. God created the universe from the Foundation Stone, located in the Doom of the Rock, in Jerusalem, Asia. Jesus was crucified on Good Friday and resurrected on the following Sunday, just as Asia was suppressed in the last few centuries, and rising again today.
Agreed, if you believe that Jesus is actually the son of God- I do believe he existed, so do Muslims too!
Why don't you ask or interview Chinese people?
I have, many times, they don't like to come on an English language media because they are afraid their language skills are not good enough - I have an idea though, if you come to China, you can ask them yourself and you will learn a lot of surprising things
I don't agree that children be coerced into any religious faith their parents believe in. Let them be children first. Christianity and Islam like convert people with carrot and stick. That is not right
I'm with you on this
Discouraging religion...yet one more thing that I like about China.
Actually, they don't discourage it, they are ambivalent towards it
Dalai Lama???
Again, too cryptic - did you want to know the dates he was on the Standing Committee of the NPC? That was in 1954, 0r the date he said that Tibet is an integral padt of the People's Republic of China - I recently linked that in a video too
People in Washington have no idea what's going on in Tibet because they aren't on the ground - if you have specific questions, I can see what I can find out for you from my genuine Tibetan friends, or from my foreign friends who have been there - or, more accurately, I can also search Chinese media and find the truth for you, you certainly won't see it in Western media
But please stop leaving cryptic messages - I won't waste any more time in replies to you
@@jerrystakeonchina799 🙏🙏🙏 which video? Could you give me video link?
With all this, I'm pretty sure that neither know or care to that LL the Traditional Religions have been OBSOLETE for over 150 years!!! In keeping with your Religious beliefs is only perpetuating the ignorance about GOD.
Each to their own I always say - I don't believe in organised religion, many people I know do, it doesn't mean they are bad, stupid or ignorant, it just means they have a life experience that makes them different to me - I respect that and think others ought to as well
Your guest is super long winded
He is passionate, yes!
only ccp party member or any goverment official like police, soldiers. are not allow to send there kids to church or any religious building and rituel.
I don't think that's true - kids are not allowed in church full stop but several people do take kids to church so the rules are not strictly applied.
I've heard this story that CPC members are not allowed to be religious but that's not true - or if it is, no one has been able to prove it to me yet
中国共产党不是不能信教，而是你不能把你信的那些教议带到工作中，中国有记载的历史太久了，其中有不少是因为教会造成国家动荡，或者王朝灭亡。由于官员信教传教对老百姓造成的伤害更大，就像中国现在土地政策一样，中国的土地是国家的，或者是集体所有的，尤其农村的土地，那是农村人所有，国家租给你，你可以在土地上做你想做的任何事情。国家不收你任何税，但有一个强制性的政策，土地不允许进行任何的买卖。这个政策是因为中国历史很多记载，一个王朝，经过一段时间的发展，会出现土地兼并的问题，就是富人会通过收割穷人的土地，导致穷人越穷。最后连土地种田都没有，活活饿死的情况。（现在美国好像越来越有这种现象了，就是无家可归的人。这在中国是不可能有这种情况的。这也就是为什么你在中国找不到或者很少找到无家可归的人的原因了。）
@@jerrystakeonchina799 Far too many people who have NEVER experienced being China and living there, make suppositions and assumptions, much of them, created from their own fevered imagination. They don't use common sense, they do check up on their sources, they do not meet and question the people in their subject matter, they have a scanty knowledge of history, cultures and traditions - and they apply their own set of values upon others while trying to appear to be an "expert".
Here you go, again on propaganda path.
So, prove me wrong
@@jerrystakeonchina799 🙏👍🙏