When I was a young teenager I had a paper round and would earn around £15 a week. So once a month id have the cash to catch a bus to my local store, buy a box of models, maybe a couple paints, used birthday money on books etc. My nephew is now 12 and has a paper round like I did and hes got almost 0 chance of affording the hobby with a GW game without his parents throwing cash at him.
I’m so glad I turned my back on Games Workshop. It was actually having a negative effect on my MH. It was constant. Just keeping up with the rules and releases as a casual player was stressful. Felt like I was getting my credit card out and buying stuff I didn’t really want or need. I love tabletop war games. Just not GW war games. Infinity gets it right. Free rules, free army builder, great communication, proxy rules, smaller table, well written rules (mostly).
Just for info I started playing during 2nd ed 40K / 5th 6th WFB. Left the hobby for 20 years and got back in during Covid. Re built my dark elves and built a space marine army for 40k. Then I realised I wasn’t haven’t fun any more and moved to infinity.
I still dip my toes into the GW world (Blood Bowl, Warcry... my Old Army is just a fun project) because GW games are still the most played in my area... but I completely relate. I now buy Star Wars Legion stuff because I want it and find it fun, it isn't like when I was playing 40k and eternally buying boxes "chasing the dragon" with trying to stay current. Certain game systems are just so much less intrusive into your life and require less mental and emotional attachment.
I’ve just jumped back into the Warhammer world at the age of 41, I played a lot of Epic, Warhammer, Warhammer 40k, Warhammer Quest and Necromunda back in the 90’s. I’ve only really got into it again as my 9yr stepson started asking about it as he came across it on TH-cam, any I remember how much fun it was and still is…. But as a new starter again, I can’t believe how expensive and complicated it is, I remember getting miniatures with my pocket money and being able to work the rules out with my friends, but now it feels like you need to take a mortgage out and get a PhD to play nowadays…. Having said all that though we are really enjoying Kill Team and Warcry 👍
I'm 38, starting playing board games 8 years ago after being introduced to them at Eurogamer Expo, end of last year I started playing Shatterpoint, Warcry and Kill Team. I feel, for me, that's the closest I'll get to 40k. As I would *never* dip my toe in to 40k normally due to the obsene pricing (£50-80 for a board game or £400+ for an army, not including tools and paints? Guess what I was going to pick). Warcry & Kill Team are just within the 'correct' price and time sink for me to justify getting it with a friend. After the inital hurdle of finding a core box, £30-40 for a new Warband or KT? Sure- that's an impulsive buy. I've no idea how anyone can feasibly afford to play 40k these days. We've always joked locally that Warhammer is a middle class hobby, at this point it might even be upper middle class!
Interestingly I'm in the process of building a starter set of stuff for my nephew to have a go at tabletop wargaming. There was almost no consideration on my part on how to do this. I'm going with a copy of the free One Page Rules, some home made terrain and 3D printed models. Even if you took out the 3D printing side of things I feel the whole approach of OPR as a company (and they are company now really, even if very small) to make these games as accessible as possible is something I think is much needed and has really changed my way of viewing the hobby. I don't see GW as a go-to means of introducing someone to it. I'd rather get them interested in low investment free games with simpler rules and let them explore the wider hobby if interested.
Another great video guys. You touching on the loss of the 'Aesthetic' side particularly struck a cord. My last game of 10th was very interesting. My opponent automatically set up the terrain as per tournament style. He asked if I thought it was ok and I said yes but not to worry about symmetry as its a game about the feel as much as to play. He visibly had a moment where this idea hit him and its like he didn't know what to do with this notion. I said one of my favorite lines these days "its a battlefield not a paint ball arena". Now this didn't suddenly make him change up the table but it was interesting to see the idea filter into his consciousness. The concept of an asymmetrical table was completely alien to him but to me who has played since the 2nd ed days I find mirror tables almost anathema (no issue playing them every now and then for a change). Going hand in hang with this are those 'dinner plate' objectives. Logically I know they make sense but I die inside when I see someone pull them out. They represent everything bad about tournament play seeping into casual play for me. Even a round coin objective feels better for some reason though I much prefer modeled and thematic ones if possible which have almost completely died out. The thing is, game wise I'm having way more fun now in 40k than in 9th. In fact if 10th was just 9.2 I think I would have thrown in the towel. Now its just a much more fun game all round and I don't come out of it with a headache which was happening more and more in 9th. I had to give up 9th as by the end the games were just causing anger. Ive never quit an edition early before. But 10th rallied me and I'm having fun again. Weirdly 10th feels a bit more relaxed to have casual games than 7/8/9th ever did (I see these three as the esport Tournament era when it really exploded) to me.
I honestly think the rules are really good! They’re clear and consistent and do what it says on the tin. It’s what you play the game for (standing in circles) that’s honestly what takes me out of the immersion as well. :)
My son is 11, the part about where to start them really got to me. I genuinly cant think of a way to get him into "the hobby". I fear the attention needed to see it through, and the "healthy obsession" part is missing, not just him, but in the whole generation. Everything needs to be instant, and rewards, constant
I've always knew about Warhammer 40K, but only dipped my toe recently. Well.. I dived into the deep. Bought a novel (Hero of the Imperium), a video game (Dawn of War), and to top it all off, a couple of miniatures and the necessary tools. I'm not trying to get into tabletop, just miniature painting. Yet, it's so daunting almost to get started imo. I've watched hours of painting tutorials, looked up what tools I need and which I don't, which are fairly-priced, and the models aren't that cheap either. A setup and patience is needed. I can see how people are intimidated, let alone the current younger generation.
I help run a youth club with a big focus on wargaming and D&D. There's certainly a lot of competition for attention from digital stuff but the in person social aspects of tabletop games cannot be understated. That being said GW games are often prohibitively expensive for kids plus you need other peers to invest as well compared to a console that you can hook up to the internet with almost zero effort.
My youngest is starting to get an interest in wargaming, thus as a 12 year old, space marines. The way for me to get him into the hobby is a 3d printer and onepage rules. I don't want him near actual gw, as I feel their practices have just become predatory.
My son is 8 and my brother's son is 10. I don't think I would get them started in Warhammer at this age, but we found a Battlemasters set in excellent condition and they've been loving that.
It's a different business right now for sure, starting in retail shops in 93 and still at it today, this will be great to see in the years to come. Great stuff guys!
damn, these are some of the most important conversations about the hobby being had on the webs. really thoughtful and poignant perspectives deliveed with some real objective moxy, despite the subjective roots from which you both evolved. great stuff. I want this series to be an ongoing monthly podcast! :)
I believe using video games (ESports in particular) as a comparison to current 40K is interesting and there’s lots of truth to it. Following that idea, it may also be interesting to take the current landscape of video games into account. Video gaming and Esports are hitting that boomerang moment that you mentioned as we speak. Overwatch league has collapsed, Call of Duty league is dying, LCS (NA League of legends pro league) us struggling. Many esports teams are collapsing due to funding. It’s looking like the general audience has shrunk for ESports. I don’t believe the “competitive side” of things is the be all end all for new players. I believe the REASON for the competitive scene being where people automatically jump into is because that is what is SHOWN to them. LVO competitive coverage. Bat Rep channels always using tournament pack missions, and lists with a competitive tone. When they are presenting lists it’s done as a “these guys are good because they do this in game so well. These guys hold objectives. And these guys are my back line shooting unit” it feels like they are listing off a team comp more than a narrative list. When a new codex drops almost NOBODY talks about the crusade rules. Nobody plays crusade bat reps that keep a consistent story. It’s almost like the narrative side of the game doesn’t exist if you’re looking from the outside. I believe we are completely missing that side of the hobby online, and it’s hard to expect people to WANT to play that way when they were never shown it.
It's SO much easier to make content about competition and list analysis than it is to make engaging narrative content. Path of least resistence. I think the point they touched on in the video about the "camera shift" of the game and artistic-terrain was really valid. It's much harder to excite people about the virtues of taking on a creative challenge (hobby/craft/narrative) than it is to excite them about winning a game (see MTG and Board Game's success vs. mini-wargames and RPGs).
@@pez5767 yea I mean what they said is completely valid for sure. I would just make the argument that there is a format somewhere that would fit for narrative Warhammer games. Maybe it hasn’t been worked out yet, but with the EXTREME success of lore channels and painting channels I’d be surprised if there wasn’t a way to incorporate a narrative campaign into a video series people would enjoy. It would probably look much different than what we have seen but I just feel like there’s a formula somewhere that would work. I just very much agree with the idea that the game will boomerang back around on a cycle.
Wow, what a great conversation. Thanks Ash, I've been feeling a similar way and haven't put the thought in to speak to it the way you have. 40k has felt hollow for the last while, and I'm contanty trying new things (Necropolis28, Hobgoblin, Sludge, Steel Rift, KoW) to try and find that intangible again. Infinity is scratching that itch nicely though 😊
The game store I grew up going to inherited a few tables from the old Baltimore Games Day. One of them was this two-level board that had a huge stone bridge going length-wise across the table. It was one of my favorite tables to play on as a kid.
This is such an interesting topic! I love that you had this conversation. I find it so interesting. I also am a dinosaur in this industry. I've been playing 40k since 1989 and I've seen so much change in that time.
Great conversation. A lot of it reflects my own experience as a player of 25+ years. We were amassing a stockpile of product way faster than we could ever hope to build, paint or play with. Legions and Old World came out so close to each other that I had barely cracked the shrink wrap on one when the second went up for preorder. With regards to Ash's comment about aesthetics, I think the thing that really drove that home for me was when people starting using those big neoprene objective circles on their boards. You'd have this beautiful scenery ruined by two huge, branded mousepads that completely killed the immersion.
I'm an old BFG die-hard (along with Historical mini games), but KT21 was my introduction to 40k ground combat. Absolutely love the system. But as a new painter to 28mm, I was SHOCKED how much longer it took me to build and paint everything than I expected. I bought some Compendium teams to kinda learn how to paint and I've certainly finished a few new KT releases in bits and pieces (so I definitely have stuff to play with), but I have not finished 100% of any of the 6 KT boxes I've purchased. And that's been really hard to stomach when I look at my future hobby expenses with GW.
@@RowdiesFan1 Warhammer is in a vicious cycle right now, where new miniatures are costed and detailed like unique heroes, but the game and release schedule wants you to be buying and painting them like disposable game pieces. Even a 5 point cultist is absolutely festooned with belts, amulets, open sores and other gribblies that take forever to paint. I painted an entire WW2 Marine force (about 60 miniatures) for Bolt Action in the same amount of time it took me to paint a squad of 40k guys.
I left the hobby during 3rd. Largely due to cost and total lack of any local hobby stores. I came back into the hobby right before COVID squarely for the minis and lore. But even that has become difficult for me to justify due to skyrocketing prices. I will probably never play 40K even again simply because of how much Games Workshop has decided to focus the rules toward a competitive style of play. When I do play I play solo games and use OPR rules sets simply because they are so straightforward and easy to do whatever you want with them.
For as long as I can remember (I'm 44 now) GW stores have always been staffed by slightly creepy shop assistants looking to sell the latest release to the kid who drags his mum in, enticed by the allure of the beautifully painted miniatures in the window. 99% of these purchases end up on top of the wardrobe next to the judo suit. It's why GW have always invested so heavily in bricks & mortar shops, rather than being solely online. IMO they're attempting to recreate this 'rash buy' of mum & child in an online environment as well now, by generating artificial scarcity (which is becoming much more commonplace everywhere). Make things limited edition and/or artificially small-run pre-orders, then give the unobtanium to influencers to hype it up. There's a reason GW provide people like Ash with early releases! Each new release is the must-have DLC. The reward now comes from conspiciously owning the product rather than actually using it. The marketing of the drink 'Prime' is the modern gold standard. Take flavoured and coloured coconut water, make it artificially scarce, then hype it online as the most amazing life-changing drink ever. The people that buy it aren't thirsty, they just want to take pictures of themselves drinking from the bottle. Purchasing is about ownership rather than utility. I think society now is about instant gratification rather than deferred pleasure, which is why I believe 'hobbying' as I understand it will eventually die out. I had to earn the right for my armies to take the table by painstakingly building and painting each miniature and poring over the lore to provide an appropriate name for each one, while reading and re-reading the complicated rules, dreaming of the day when I would finally get to roll my custom dice in anger. The pleasure I got when I finally did get to put my army on the table was immense, and better than any instant dopamine hit from getting my hands on the latest release. However I realise I'm a dinosaur, which is one of the reasons I stopped playing. The 'scene' is just alien to me these days. I suppose I'm just as guilty of wanting instant gratification though, watching TH-cam videos of people playing the game rather than doing it myself!
@wesleyejackson considering every pre-release goes out of stock, we can assume that it's not GW underestimating demand. If it is, then that's an astounding level of incompetence.
What an excellent video. I'm loving these thoughtful musings about the state of the industry. I've always snubbed my nose at the notion of GW planned shortages, and I still do for AoS and 40k. However, I think for their specialist games (LI, Necromunda, Titanicus, etc) there is probably a sliver of truth to that idea. I think GW willingingly projects low for specialist games and probably understands that if they "run out" it will generate additional demand on the restock OR if the game doesn't do well, then they're not on the hook for that sunk cost. Effectively they've figured out a way around the need to "guess right" on their production by just shooting low and generating percieved value for items that are now "hard to get". Also, somewhat related, I think their release schedule has caught up with their production schedule. Things aren't getting playtested or even developed as long as they used to.
The release of Leviathan had a lot of uncertainty to it. They had been running out of everything prior to it's release, scalper central was at full speed. There were stories of brick and mortar stores being told they were not going to get a fraction of the boxes they ordered. My local store still has a few copies but would not let me preorder one because they were doing a first come first serve and i and others didnt want to deal with the rush so I ended up buying it directly from GW.
I will say that my wife and I pretty much solely play Warmachine. We are really enjoying the new models and their army model. My friends also play Warmachine adjacent games with us. I've introduced Warmachine to a bunch of children at the school I work at. I firmly believe it is a better game and an easier entry point into the hobby.
There are so, SO many better games out there that are easier entry ways into the hobby than GW's products. Especially anything historical. Choose a setting/time period you find interesting, and then there are hundreds of rulesets available for little money and sometimes even for free and tons of cheap miniatures.
Firstly, the videos are great Secondly, I feel like these days I’m just chasing the excitement of Games Workshop but real life means I don’t really participate in the hobby like I used to. My hobby loops round two things at the moment and that is Frostgrave and Star Wars. The investment for new 40K or any GW product at the moment feels unsatisfactory. I’m not getting the “bang for my buck” I felt I did in my twenties. I don’t want this to sound too negative because I love warhammer and I’m excited about The Old World and I’m buying the books for the Horus Heresy since they are reasonable to pick up at least. I also still think MESBG is fantastic but again I just get the books or terrain around Christmas and my birthday because I usually end up with vouchers for them.
15 years ago, I was a buyer for a couple of independent game stores and our weekly budget for non-GW orders was about $10k. GW was about another $5k. But the non-GW orders were for minis game, board games, card games, RPGs, etc. GW is a sword of countless edges. It was the best selling minis game, but it was the most shoplifted too. It brings new people into the hobbies, but it strangles out competition. Their marketing group is incredibly successful, but their production capacity can't (or won't) keep up. We have an enviable and historically phenomenal selection of games available. If GW dropped out of the market, would we see all of these games burst with popularity, or would we see an exodus of players and hobbyists, moving to other hobbies? I don't play GW games, I don't care for their rules. But to introduce my brother to gaming, I bought him Kill Team. While I am happy to teach people the games I like, I choose to get my brother something he can take to a store and join a game easily. It is a bit of a pickle.
I really enjoy this conversation. Lots of the commentary I feel it as a hobbyist and as some one trying to help out my buddies store. Its been interesting since i've been playing since I was 7 and mid 90s I couldn't see getting some one that age into the hobby. It really has change and heck even remember options I had in 3rd edition the campaigns and battles I've had its just way different. In one way I feel left behind but I can also see where people want this. It'll be interesting to see where it goes and well heck we got a version of epic and old world back so who knows what the future will hold.
40k has definitely lost me. I just dont get the same feeling when playing. I switched to 30k and warlord games stuff and the narrative and gaming club focused stuff is where i really enjoy the hobby.
Thanks for the video; this was an interesting focus on the miniature wargaming hobby. That said, I'd have liked to see more of an interview. I ddin't time this at all, but it felt like the store owner got less screen time. I'd have liked you to ask more questions of him instead of explaining things to him. E.g., on the discussion about bringing in kids to the hobby, it would have been a great time to ask him "do you see parents bringing in kids? what is the average age of people buying new armies?" etc. instead of discussing your own kid and your own take.
Would love to see this talk become a quarterly thing. Every three months "what is the current hot thing", "where is the overall scene moving to", "what are the expectations for the next months" ... I would watch that and love it!
I will be interesting to hear your conversation about "GW monopoly". I have never played a GW game in my adult life and I don't understand how or why people allow themselves to be told that Warhammer IS wargaming. I actually love 40K and WHF lore but I think the game is far inferior to other offerings out there like Malifaux, WM/H, Moonstone, Infinity etc. Its only a monopoly if you let it be. But I get that as a store owner you have to sell what sells.
This is the same phenomenon that's going on in the RPG industry with D&D 5e. People thing RPGs are D&D and there are countless others. There's a value in having a flagship brand, but also an issue when the flagship is so large you cannot see the smaller more agile craft (great small-press games) all around. *sorry for the rambly metaphor, but I think it works?*
Infinity is (or was when I was playing back in N3) a far superior ruleset for competitive, balanced play than 40k, mostly because Infinity was created with competitive, balanced play in mind. A couple of games of Infinity and I never touched a GW game again (other than Mordheim). It was like my eyes had been opened. GW games started as role-playing games and have increasingly attempted to bolt-on competitive style rules to a framework that was never designed for them, and, for me, just ended up a bigger and bigger mess as a result.
Excellent Video. I’m curious how your friend’s store weathered the rise and fall of Warmachine and Hordes? At one point WM/H was more popular (at my FLG) than any miniature wargame. The introduction of 2D terrain was one of the biggest nails in that coffin (for me).
To be fair, when I got into the hobby at 10 years old back in 1999, I also had zero ability to buy any starter sets or boxed games. I had to make do with individual models I thought looked cool and just imagine what it might be like to play the game. My local store was just a used bookstore with one shelf of models and zero space for gaming. Of course boxes were less expensive than they are now, but a mainline boxed Warhammer game was still something I had to wait until I got a job to get.
Braden The Skaven loves the new studio setup, yes-yes! The discussion about the Start Collecting value kits versus the Combat Patrol kits struck a chord with me. I got into the hobby ten years ago with the Imperial Guard no less, no way I'd have been able to afford it if I was born ten years later with the money I had at the time. I was able to buy Dark Vengeance and later the old Cadian Defence Force for about the same as you'd get two combat patrols now. Then, two years afterward came the SC box sets which were an amazing value. I was so sad to see them go. Well, the times they are-a-changin' as they say.
Great conversion, it is something that has been talked about on other channels lightly. Where is 40K going and what will it look like? I think we all know what GW would like it to look like and we see it with their release schedule. However, the fact that fewer and fewer kids are getting into the hobby should be striking alarm bells for GW. However, GW continues to focus on their competitive clientele base. This can be seen in the way the rules are being written and releasing new miniatures with overpowered stats. I think it’s really short sighted on GW's part but typical for large corporations which only care about profits. Coming into the game in 9th I wasn’t exposed to previous editions but now I find myself looking back to see if I missed out on anything and boy did I. The rules are crunchier but you are drawn into the world and setting. You can build your own custom successor chapter with its own heraldry and lore. You are shown how to build your own terrain and there are loads of missions in the core book and in the codexs. This is a far cry from what we have today with our cookie cutter units, generic descriptions and limited war gear.
26:23 I agree 100% it is incumbent on the older hats selling that part of the game. I agree as I age playing the game is great but telling the story and setting up a narrative table is the grind for a fun way to play with the rule set. We are getting there and we are helping influence but getting someone hyped about a game and then the hobby and the table. Hard to focus down sometimes as many draws in many directions.
The entry price into the hobby decades ago (~$200) was also not too far off from buying a game system back then as well. I still have a PS2 and Xbox 360 that collect dust (I use the latter to watch DVD movies when not using a streaming platform) but had the NES, N64, and GameCube back in the day. Once video game console systems started increasing in price to the point of a personal computer (same as smartphones), I am more reluctant to purchase them, don't feel the need to keep up with the market with every new release, and not emotionally invested into that purchase. I'm sure there are many GW customers who feel the same way and simply collect and enjoy other interests while watching model releases from the outside as prices increase, "FOMO" happens with preorders, and games are not supported sufficiently (WHFB, Cursed City, etc.) while GW expands its market. I find it funny that the toy companies selling Warhammer merchandise have a notable price tag for something you can "play with" and collect that competes with just buying more GW models.
I agree and hope the boomerang comes back in regards to the craft of personalized narrative in the hobby. I think dedicated hobby space and time are two hard areas to overcome for lots of newer hobbyists in terms of developing terrain and tables. Despite ITC standardizing terrain for tournaments, GW has been producing some amazing terrain for all their systems, that blows away anything we had back in the day :) So I think as a company they are still pushing the narrative element of their games. I think another major influence to help the hobby will be future Sci-Fi and Fantasy movies and series that promote love of those genres. I think some solid new IPs (or even the expanding GW media) will help to promote that sense of awe in folks, the way Aliens, LOTR, Starship Troopers ❤, and others have done to inspire Warhammer hobbying over the years.
Thank you for making these videos. I always share them out to my local communities because they are POV that dont get a lot of air time, but are so important to properly respecting the business chiifes of our FLGS.
I was all for 10th edition because it seemed like GW was doing everything right, like free rules and a promise to support the existing range. Then large swaths of my collection moved to Legends, the Indexes got pulled with each Codex release, and the entire release cycle turned into FOMO or wait six months for a retail restock. But what ultimately killed it for me was that despite hoping otherwise, it was still 40K, and the same tryhards who pushed me out during 8th and 9th still dominate the local playerbase. At this point I'm painting up my 40K backlog for display because they make me happy, and focusing my attention on AOS or other game systems. And when 11th edition rolls around in two years, I'll know better than to get my hopes up.
Thanks for the video. What's Chris' opinion on printers, especially in regards to in-store play? On one hand every model printed is a model not sold, and might encourage others to move in that direction; on the other hand like he said there's a lot of products that are unavailable for consumers regardless, also printers still purchase paint supplies, and also increases activity in the community that might otherwise not be there.
Interesting... when I started in the 80's, this was a hobby for high school and college kids (there was also the issue of language barrier for younger kids).
Stores getting stuck with too much of a release is the natural order of things when it comes to warhammer. We had to bring in 25 boxes of gorka morka back in the day and we definitely did not sell through on those lol.
Love these discussions. Wonder what would be different if it were a us retailer?? I am not interested in GW games anymore but the Discussions are so interesting.
I dont know if it's just because I'm old and been playing for 15 years and in the lore for 20 years but GW needs to remember that the lore IS 40k. As a game it's never been the best but the world behind it has always been amazing. I do really miss when I didn't feel stressed all of the time with new releases constantly. I hope they give us a break after all of the codex releases and just spend some time getting models updated.
Excellent episode. Personally, I think things are moving too fast. If you play multiple games it’s hard to keep up with. Or even multiple factions within a game.
This video spoke to old man me; 10ed 40K IMO has been hollow - the rulebook is the most "product push" of them all and the aesthetics and metachasing of ITC gives me no interest. I've just played Necromunda much more to get my 40k fix of everything weird and wonderful about the universe, the hobby aspect and not have to chase an unsustainable release schedule.
18:40 I even heard miniwargaming (remember them?!) say that now there are just TOO many releases for them to keep up with; they simply can't follow the GW release schedule as it's too much pressure. So if the bigger sites can't keep following the schedule the one man operation has no chance. I still think Ash should do vids for the big new releases though! Work the algorithm Ash!
That is the problem, Order to much vs. never seeing it again... as you mentioned to see the shelf full or empty... With nothing to offer to get people in...
The codex model is such a legacy product for the younger players. They all have phones and are digital native. Having to sink money into dead books is a crazy idea for new players. They have to move to a digital subscription model for the rules so it becomes a living ruleset
I've been back into the Warhammer hobby now for over 25yrs and as have seen many changes, big and small, happen within the game of 40K, but the one I'm least found of is this move into boring terrain and table layouts that is being pushed due to the competitive scene and its 'need' for water tight game mechanics on par with chess. Boxes, L shapes and huge objective pie plates which flies in the face of the aesthetics and narrative background of the game and which makes every gaming table look the same.
I think a lot of what you feel is the dominance of competitive play over narrative. They are game pieces that need simple balancing at a fast pace. The books are the narrative space. I think the death of casual play means young players can't enjoy it as fun, it's got to be competitive.
I honestly think the movie-set vs game hud thing is both cyclical but also more a content creation issue. Very rarely do you see for example, channels investing in building a narrative campaign for say bat-reps. But especially newer hobbyists will look for them for edutainment content for a new army or edition etc. So they need that top down consistency to See how deployment works or avoiding oppressive sight lines etc But in 9th the crusade rules were somewhat hit and miss so it didn't move matched play from being the benchmark either
Again. I don't get it. I know lots of people who play old editions of 40k. I personally like 3rd edition the best. I can't wrap my head around people constantly buying into these new editions. The game hasn't been good in a long time. Well, there was a brief window during the early days of 8th. But then you gotta go back to 3rd and 4th edition. I'm not constantly throwing money out the window just to have "the new $hit". Especially if that new stuff is worse. Maybe it's a US thing. There's certainly way less of that in European countries.
Seriously! The game is so bloated and more complicated than it used to be! I started with 3rd and thankfully still have my books! With my kids though I've turned to One Page Rules and other games that cut all the fat out.
I had a fun run with GW spanning a couple of decades but I am over them now. Starting to explore other games, both in production and out. I am just over GW’s business model, and if I were still really into their games, I would be really frustrated with availability. I priced what it would take to get everything for Legion Imperialis and play it as shown, and it came to $1000. Screw that. I have just about every box set from WFB 4th edition right up to 40K 10th, including Epic, Necromunda, Man O War, Warhammer Quest, Space Hulk, even Tyranid Attack. Just about everything. I love my collection, but I have zero desire to try and keep up with the hobby as it is. I really feel sorry for new gamers.
I think the opportunity there, which I’ve explored, is to go back to those old games and give them a really good refresh with all the skills you’ve learned over twenty years!
My boy is 6yr old and we are playing Space Hulk. Sorry but Space Hulk is the best starter, they need to redo a NEW SPACE HULK. PS: WH is also very expensive considering 3d printers exist, they need cheap intro kits and Combat Patrols isn't it, $200+ for 12 models and a tank WTF.
I think army based Wargames are difficult to get into. You have to be determined to paint an army of several hundred models. I remember the conversations on the plane back from a tournament were about what army to design and build for next year. It then took a year to make the army. I remember painting gem stones on wave serpents in the airport while waiting for my flight. If you don’t like the painting and making the models you will hate 90% of the hobby. Kill team or war cry are much better for new people. Buy a kill team to see if you like the faction. Then buy a second box and so on.
One thing that gw don't understand that I think was ashame that it was not spoke about was the scalper problem. People will turn away from products if they can't buy it. If this guy in the interview is a retailer I would like to know if he finds customers turning away from him if he sells to scslpers online. This is one reason why I turn to 3d printing. The tabletop market is heavy with scalpers.
How can gamers get into a game like 40k, that is on it's 10th edition of the rules? If GW can't get it right after 2-3 editions, how good can the rules be?
It's all a pretty curious situation. The buy-in price for 40k is higher than ever, but the game has never been more popular. GW has problems just trying to keep certain problems in stock and are always expanding their factories over time. I think it's really, REALLY worth listening to that one podcast episode from The Painting Phase where they talk to former GW product designer Tom Hibberd. He has so many interesting insights into the industry. From the 2000s to the mid 2010s, the biggest customer demographic for GW were 20-45 year old women. (Not exact ages, I forget) This was the Moms buying stuff for their kids. GW hasn't been really accessible to kids for ages. Kinda sucks. Honestly I think Kill Team is a much better entry into the hobby.
GW has become the iPhone of the table-top gaming world. They've priced themselves into the premium product arena and they market themselves as the premium brand of the gaming world. My problem is that they don't fit the premium brand, the miniatures probably are but the games themselves aren't. Eventually they're going to hit a tipping point in regards to pricing. Where they hit a price where the majority of gamers decide the cost is too high. Personally for me they've already hit that and I'm surprised that people are willing to pay the current prices.
![DEEP BREACHING GROUND SMASHER - Weekly Brawl [Starcraft 2 Direct Strike]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9AdmPU4eWto/mqdefault.jpg)
I love how the studio rebuild has made these informal videos possible.
I love the rebuild!
Agreed, I am finally catching up on these videos and it has been a fantastic listen here at work.
When I was a young teenager I had a paper round and would earn around £15 a week. So once a month id have the cash to catch a bus to my local store, buy a box of models, maybe a couple paints, used birthday money on books etc.
My nephew is now 12 and has a paper round like I did and hes got almost 0 chance of affording the hobby with a GW game without his parents throwing cash at him.
I’m so glad I turned my back on Games Workshop. It was actually having a negative effect on my MH. It was constant. Just keeping up with the rules and releases as a casual player was stressful. Felt like I was getting my credit card out and buying stuff I didn’t really want or need.
I love tabletop war games. Just not GW war games.
Infinity gets it right. Free rules, free army builder, great communication, proxy rules, smaller table, well written rules (mostly).
Just for info I started playing during 2nd ed 40K / 5th 6th WFB. Left the hobby for 20 years and got back in during Covid. Re built my dark elves and built a space marine army for 40k. Then I realised I wasn’t haven’t fun any more and moved to infinity.
Infinity is amazing. Stopped playing when N4 dropped as didn't like many of the changes but still far superior to anything modern GW can produce.
I still dip my toes into the GW world (Blood Bowl, Warcry... my Old Army is just a fun project) because GW games are still the most played in my area... but I completely relate.
I now buy Star Wars Legion stuff because I want it and find it fun, it isn't like when I was playing 40k and eternally buying boxes "chasing the dragon" with trying to stay current.
Certain game systems are just so much less intrusive into your life and require less mental and emotional attachment.
Dude just play 6th edition. 8th edition onwards is total aids and the whole “competitive” scene is toxic af
I’ve just jumped back into the Warhammer world at the age of 41, I played a lot of Epic, Warhammer, Warhammer 40k, Warhammer Quest and Necromunda back in the 90’s. I’ve only really got into it again as my 9yr stepson started asking about it as he came across it on TH-cam, any I remember how much fun it was and still is…. But as a new starter again, I can’t believe how expensive and complicated it is, I remember getting miniatures with my pocket money and being able to work the rules out with my friends, but now it feels like you need to take a mortgage out and get a PhD to play nowadays…. Having said all that though we are really enjoying Kill Team and Warcry 👍
I'm 38, starting playing board games 8 years ago after being introduced to them at Eurogamer Expo, end of last year I started playing Shatterpoint, Warcry and Kill Team. I feel, for me, that's the closest I'll get to 40k. As I would *never* dip my toe in to 40k normally due to the obsene pricing (£50-80 for a board game or £400+ for an army, not including tools and paints? Guess what I was going to pick). Warcry & Kill Team are just within the 'correct' price and time sink for me to justify getting it with a friend. After the inital hurdle of finding a core box, £30-40 for a new Warband or KT? Sure- that's an impulsive buy. I've no idea how anyone can feasibly afford to play 40k these days. We've always joked locally that Warhammer is a middle class hobby, at this point it might even be upper middle class!
I love killteam, it's everything that 40k is lacking. Every model counts!
Mate I feel you anything after 8th is complete trash 😂 so I just play 6th edition and Horus Heresy (which is based on 7th)
@@redmerkin 6th edition is a great base ruleset 👍
Interestingly I'm in the process of building a starter set of stuff for my nephew to have a go at tabletop wargaming. There was almost no consideration on my part on how to do this. I'm going with a copy of the free One Page Rules, some home made terrain and 3D printed models. Even if you took out the 3D printing side of things I feel the whole approach of OPR as a company (and they are company now really, even if very small) to make these games as accessible as possible is something I think is much needed and has really changed my way of viewing the hobby. I don't see GW as a go-to means of introducing someone to it. I'd rather get them interested in low investment free games with simpler rules and let them explore the wider hobby if interested.
Ghost Ships needs to be the free square in the center of the Bingo Card.
Ash says, "The Man, the Myth, the Legend..." would also be good.
Another great video guys. You touching on the loss of the 'Aesthetic' side particularly struck a cord. My last game of 10th was very interesting. My opponent automatically set up the terrain as per tournament style. He asked if I thought it was ok and I said yes but not to worry about symmetry as its a game about the feel as much as to play. He visibly had a moment where this idea hit him and its like he didn't know what to do with this notion. I said one of my favorite lines these days "its a battlefield not a paint ball arena". Now this didn't suddenly make him change up the table but it was interesting to see the idea filter into his consciousness. The concept of an asymmetrical table was completely alien to him but to me who has played since the 2nd ed days I find mirror tables almost anathema (no issue playing them every now and then for a change). Going hand in hang with this are those 'dinner plate' objectives. Logically I know they make sense but I die inside when I see someone pull them out. They represent everything bad about tournament play seeping into casual play for me. Even a round coin objective feels better for some reason though I much prefer modeled and thematic ones if possible which have almost completely died out.
The thing is, game wise I'm having way more fun now in 40k than in 9th. In fact if 10th was just 9.2 I think I would have thrown in the towel. Now its just a much more fun game all round and I don't come out of it with a headache which was happening more and more in 9th. I had to give up 9th as by the end the games were just causing anger. Ive never quit an edition early before. But 10th rallied me and I'm having fun again. Weirdly 10th feels a bit more relaxed to have casual games than 7/8/9th ever did (I see these three as the esport Tournament era when it really exploded) to me.
I honestly think the rules are really good! They’re clear and consistent and do what it says on the tin. It’s what you play the game for (standing in circles) that’s honestly what takes me out of the immersion as well. :)
What faction(s) do you play if I might ask?
@@Kingofdragons117 I play nids, csm and daemons but right now I'm playing 99% tyranids. I just like how they play.
Woo! Ten more years of GMG confirmed.
I need to live that long first lol
10 MORE YEARS! 10 MORE YEARS! 😄👍@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames
My son is 11, the part about where to start them really got to me. I genuinly cant think of a way to get him into "the hobby". I fear the attention needed to see it through, and the "healthy obsession" part is missing, not just him, but in the whole generation. Everything needs to be instant, and rewards, constant
I've always knew about Warhammer 40K, but only dipped my toe recently. Well.. I dived into the deep. Bought a novel (Hero of the Imperium), a video game (Dawn of War), and to top it all off, a couple of miniatures and the necessary tools. I'm not trying to get into tabletop, just miniature painting. Yet, it's so daunting almost to get started imo.
I've watched hours of painting tutorials, looked up what tools I need and which I don't, which are fairly-priced, and the models aren't that cheap either. A setup and patience is needed. I can see how people are intimidated, let alone the current younger generation.
I help run a youth club with a big focus on wargaming and D&D. There's certainly a lot of competition for attention from digital stuff but the in person social aspects of tabletop games cannot be understated. That being said GW games are often prohibitively expensive for kids plus you need other peers to invest as well compared to a console that you can hook up to the internet with almost zero effort.
My youngest is starting to get an interest in wargaming, thus as a 12 year old, space marines. The way for me to get him into the hobby is a 3d printer and onepage rules. I don't want him near actual gw, as I feel their practices have just become predatory.
Lords of War was my local shop until I had to move recently, really great guys running the place!
Absolutely love this kind of content, looking forward to more!
Great observation about the movie scene versus a video game HUD. The game has gone from a moment in time to chess on steroids.
My son is 8 and my brother's son is 10. I don't think I would get them started in Warhammer at this age, but we found a Battlemasters set in excellent condition and they've been loving that.
👏👏👏👏
It's a different business right now for sure, starting in retail shops in 93 and still at it today, this will be great to see in the years to come. Great stuff guys!
damn, these are some of the most important conversations about the hobby being had on the webs. really thoughtful and poignant perspectives deliveed with some real objective moxy, despite the subjective roots from which you both evolved. great stuff. I want this series to be an ongoing monthly podcast! :)
I’ve got more guests on the way and there’s one more episode from this visit on the way. :)
I believe using video games (ESports in particular) as a comparison to current 40K is interesting and there’s lots of truth to it. Following that idea, it may also be interesting to take the current landscape of video games into account. Video gaming and Esports are hitting that boomerang moment that you mentioned as we speak. Overwatch league has collapsed, Call of Duty league is dying, LCS (NA League of legends pro league) us struggling. Many esports teams are collapsing due to funding. It’s looking like the general audience has shrunk for ESports. I don’t believe the “competitive side” of things is the be all end all for new players. I believe the REASON for the competitive scene being where people automatically jump into is because that is what is SHOWN to them. LVO competitive coverage. Bat Rep channels always using tournament pack missions, and lists with a competitive tone. When they are presenting lists it’s done as a “these guys are good because they do this in game so well. These guys hold objectives. And these guys are my back line shooting unit” it feels like they are listing off a team comp more than a narrative list. When a new codex drops almost NOBODY talks about the crusade rules. Nobody plays crusade bat reps that keep a consistent story. It’s almost like the narrative side of the game doesn’t exist if you’re looking from the outside. I believe we are completely missing that side of the hobby online, and it’s hard to expect people to WANT to play that way when they were never shown it.
It's SO much easier to make content about competition and list analysis than it is to make engaging narrative content. Path of least resistence. I think the point they touched on in the video about the "camera shift" of the game and artistic-terrain was really valid. It's much harder to excite people about the virtues of taking on a creative challenge (hobby/craft/narrative) than it is to excite them about winning a game (see MTG and Board Game's success vs. mini-wargames and RPGs).
@@pez5767 yea I mean what they said is completely valid for sure. I would just make the argument that there is a format somewhere that would fit for narrative Warhammer games. Maybe it hasn’t been worked out yet, but with the EXTREME success of lore channels and painting channels I’d be surprised if there wasn’t a way to incorporate a narrative campaign into a video series people would enjoy. It would probably look much different than what we have seen but I just feel like there’s a formula somewhere that would work. I just very much agree with the idea that the game will boomerang back around on a cycle.
Wow, what a great conversation. Thanks Ash, I've been feeling a similar way and haven't put the thought in to speak to it the way you have.
40k has felt hollow for the last while, and I'm contanty trying new things (Necropolis28, Hobgoblin, Sludge, Steel Rift, KoW) to try and find that intangible again. Infinity is scratching that itch nicely though 😊
The game store I grew up going to inherited a few tables from the old Baltimore Games Day. One of them was this two-level board that had a huge stone bridge going length-wise across the table. It was one of my favorite tables to play on as a kid.
This is such an interesting topic! I love that you had this conversation. I find it so interesting. I also am a dinosaur in this industry. I've been playing 40k since 1989 and I've seen so much change in that time.
Great conversation. A lot of it reflects my own experience as a player of 25+ years. We were amassing a stockpile of product way faster than we could ever hope to build, paint or play with. Legions and Old World came out so close to each other that I had barely cracked the shrink wrap on one when the second went up for preorder.
With regards to Ash's comment about aesthetics, I think the thing that really drove that home for me was when people starting using those big neoprene objective circles on their boards. You'd have this beautiful scenery ruined by two huge, branded mousepads that completely killed the immersion.
I'm an old BFG die-hard (along with Historical mini games), but KT21 was my introduction to 40k ground combat. Absolutely love the system. But as a new painter to 28mm, I was SHOCKED how much longer it took me to build and paint everything than I expected. I bought some Compendium teams to kinda learn how to paint and I've certainly finished a few new KT releases in bits and pieces (so I definitely have stuff to play with), but I have not finished 100% of any of the 6 KT boxes I've purchased. And that's been really hard to stomach when I look at my future hobby expenses with GW.
@@RowdiesFan1 Warhammer is in a vicious cycle right now, where new miniatures are costed and detailed like unique heroes, but the game and release schedule wants you to be buying and painting them like disposable game pieces. Even a 5 point cultist is absolutely festooned with belts, amulets, open sores and other gribblies that take forever to paint.
I painted an entire WW2 Marine force (about 60 miniatures) for Bolt Action in the same amount of time it took me to paint a squad of 40k guys.
Love this insight into an aspect of our hobby that never gets thought about, unless you're a store owner. Thanks!
I left the hobby during 3rd. Largely due to cost and total lack of any local hobby stores. I came back into the hobby right before COVID squarely for the minis and lore. But even that has become difficult for me to justify due to skyrocketing prices. I will probably never play 40K even again simply because of how much Games Workshop has decided to focus the rules toward a competitive style of play. When I do play I play solo games and use OPR rules sets simply because they are so straightforward and easy to do whatever you want with them.
For as long as I can remember (I'm 44 now) GW stores have always been staffed by slightly creepy shop assistants looking to sell the latest release to the kid who drags his mum in, enticed by the allure of the beautifully painted miniatures in the window. 99% of these purchases end up on top of the wardrobe next to the judo suit. It's why GW have always invested so heavily in bricks & mortar shops, rather than being solely online.
IMO they're attempting to recreate this 'rash buy' of mum & child in an online environment as well now, by generating artificial scarcity (which is becoming much more commonplace everywhere). Make things limited edition and/or artificially small-run pre-orders, then give the unobtanium to influencers to hype it up. There's a reason GW provide people like Ash with early releases! Each new release is the must-have DLC.
The reward now comes from conspiciously owning the product rather than actually using it. The marketing of the drink 'Prime' is the modern gold standard. Take flavoured and coloured coconut water, make it artificially scarce, then hype it online as the most amazing life-changing drink ever. The people that buy it aren't thirsty, they just want to take pictures of themselves drinking from the bottle. Purchasing is about ownership rather than utility.
I think society now is about instant gratification rather than deferred pleasure, which is why I believe 'hobbying' as I understand it will eventually die out. I had to earn the right for my armies to take the table by painstakingly building and painting each miniature and poring over the lore to provide an appropriate name for each one, while reading and re-reading the complicated rules, dreaming of the day when I would finally get to roll my custom dice in anger. The pleasure I got when I finally did get to put my army on the table was immense, and better than any instant dopamine hit from getting my hands on the latest release. However I realise I'm a dinosaur, which is one of the reasons I stopped playing. The 'scene' is just alien to me these days. I suppose I'm just as guilty of wanting instant gratification though, watching TH-cam videos of people playing the game rather than doing it myself!
There's no artificial scarcity.
@wesleyejackson considering every pre-release goes out of stock, we can assume that it's not GW underestimating demand. If it is, then that's an astounding level of incompetence.
@tyrannosaurus696 it's simply not true that every single new release sells out.
I love these conversations. I can use more of these
This was a really interesting listen, mate. Been meaning to get around to checking out this video for a while now, and glad I did.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Sword poster in the back??? Already liked this channel very much.... You got great taste in music as well?? Hell yeah.
Thanks Justin!!
I really enjoy these types of videos a lot. Great content Ash.
Polygamerous man shoehorns in a reference about Ghost Ship.
Don’t be like that it was a smooth big cat just sliding in unnoticed.
@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames you know your first patron watch along has to be Ghost Ship, now, right?
😄😄😄@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames
Yes love the new studio 🎙. Has a great feel and your shows are great
Thank you!!!
Surely kids ageing out of Lego and action figures earlier in favour of digital gaming has eroded a cultural Warhammer on ramp.
What an excellent video. I'm loving these thoughtful musings about the state of the industry. I've always snubbed my nose at the notion of GW planned shortages, and I still do for AoS and 40k.
However, I think for their specialist games (LI, Necromunda, Titanicus, etc) there is probably a sliver of truth to that idea. I think GW willingingly projects low for specialist games and probably understands that if they "run out" it will generate additional demand on the restock OR if the game doesn't do well, then they're not on the hook for that sunk cost. Effectively they've figured out a way around the need to "guess right" on their production by just shooting low and generating percieved value for items that are now "hard to get".
Also, somewhat related, I think their release schedule has caught up with their production schedule. Things aren't getting playtested or even developed as long as they used to.
Love these podcast style conversations. Also I pictured Ash's image of Warhammer 40k 2nd edition. Old Orks are gold. 😊
The release of Leviathan had a lot of uncertainty to it. They had been running out of everything prior to it's release, scalper central was at full speed. There were stories of brick and mortar stores being told they were not going to get a fraction of the boxes they ordered. My local store still has a few copies but would not let me preorder one because they were doing a first come first serve and i and others didnt want to deal with the rush so I ended up buying it directly from GW.
I will say that my wife and I pretty much solely play Warmachine. We are really enjoying the new models and their army model. My friends also play Warmachine adjacent games with us. I've introduced Warmachine to a bunch of children at the school I work at. I firmly believe it is a better game and an easier entry point into the hobby.
There are so, SO many better games out there that are easier entry ways into the hobby than GW's products.
Especially anything historical. Choose a setting/time period you find interesting, and then there are hundreds of rulesets available for little money and sometimes even for free and tons of cheap miniatures.
I honestly thought Privateer Press was out of business!
Great conversation, once again. Thanks Chris and Ash.
I love seeing videos like this. Please keep them coming.
Firstly, the videos are great
Secondly, I feel like these days I’m just chasing the excitement of Games Workshop but real life means I don’t really participate in the hobby like I used to. My hobby loops round two things at the moment and that is Frostgrave and Star Wars. The investment for new 40K or any GW product at the moment feels unsatisfactory. I’m not getting the “bang for my buck” I felt I did in my twenties. I don’t want this to sound too negative because I love warhammer and I’m excited about The Old World and I’m buying the books for the Horus Heresy since they are reasonable to pick up at least. I also still think MESBG is fantastic but again I just get the books or terrain around Christmas and my birthday because I usually end up with vouchers for them.
first time i spotted your Age of Winters album back there, very nice to see another fan of The Sword!
15 years ago, I was a buyer for a couple of independent game stores and our weekly budget for non-GW orders was about $10k. GW was about another $5k. But the non-GW orders were for minis game, board games, card games, RPGs, etc.
GW is a sword of countless edges. It was the best selling minis game, but it was the most shoplifted too. It brings new people into the hobbies, but it strangles out competition. Their marketing group is incredibly successful, but their production capacity can't (or won't) keep up.
We have an enviable and historically phenomenal selection of games available. If GW dropped out of the market, would we see all of these games burst with popularity, or would we see an exodus of players and hobbyists, moving to other hobbies?
I don't play GW games, I don't care for their rules. But to introduce my brother to gaming, I bought him Kill Team. While I am happy to teach people the games I like, I choose to get my brother something he can take to a store and join a game easily.
It is a bit of a pickle.
Outstanding interview. Thanks.
I really enjoy this conversation. Lots of the commentary I feel it as a hobbyist and as some one trying to help out my buddies store. Its been interesting since i've been playing since I was 7 and mid 90s I couldn't see getting some one that age into the hobby. It really has change and heck even remember options I had in 3rd edition the campaigns and battles I've had its just way different. In one way I feel left behind but I can also see where people want this. It'll be interesting to see where it goes and well heck we got a version of epic and old world back so who knows what the future will hold.
Awesome video. Personally i find these tipes of conversation videos way more interesting than any meta rules crap
BREAKING: Oil to be valued in Leviathan, rather than Dollars...
That last section regarding stock (and by extension fluidity) is super important.
This can be a rough business for the small retailer. I hope the best for him seems like an alright, dude.
I’m loving these conversations between content creation and running a store. Thank you! Really interesting conversations
40k has definitely lost me. I just dont get the same feeling when playing. I switched to 30k and warlord games stuff and the narrative and gaming club focused stuff is where i really enjoy the hobby.
Thanks for the video; this was an interesting focus on the miniature wargaming hobby. That said, I'd have liked to see more of an interview. I ddin't time this at all, but it felt like the store owner got less screen time. I'd have liked you to ask more questions of him instead of explaining things to him. E.g., on the discussion about bringing in kids to the hobby, it would have been a great time to ask him "do you see parents bringing in kids? what is the average age of people buying new armies?" etc. instead of discussing your own kid and your own take.
Really appreciate these types of videos, really interesting to hear about
Great content Ash, very interesting topics, love hearing from people that are in the industry in some way!
Would love to see this talk become a quarterly thing. Every three months "what is the current hot thing", "where is the overall scene moving to", "what are the expectations for the next months" ... I would watch that and love it!
REALLY enjoying these chats. Too short ;)
Thank you!
@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames Thoughts on linking your previous videos with Chris in the description? Took me a minute to find the first one.
Great topic and insightful conversation ! And now I feel compeled to watch Ghost Ship ...
As one must fortnightly
@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames I did it, am I still the same ? Time will tell...
I will be interesting to hear your conversation about "GW monopoly". I have never played a GW game in my adult life and I don't understand how or why people allow themselves to be told that Warhammer IS wargaming. I actually love 40K and WHF lore but I think the game is far inferior to other offerings out there like Malifaux, WM/H, Moonstone, Infinity etc. Its only a monopoly if you let it be. But I get that as a store owner you have to sell what sells.
This is the same phenomenon that's going on in the RPG industry with D&D 5e. People thing RPGs are D&D and there are countless others. There's a value in having a flagship brand, but also an issue when the flagship is so large you cannot see the smaller more agile craft (great small-press games) all around. *sorry for the rambly metaphor, but I think it works?*
Infinity is (or was when I was playing back in N3) a far superior ruleset for competitive, balanced play than 40k, mostly because Infinity was created with competitive, balanced play in mind. A couple of games of Infinity and I never touched a GW game again (other than Mordheim). It was like my eyes had been opened.
GW games started as role-playing games and have increasingly attempted to bolt-on competitive style rules to a framework that was never designed for them, and, for me, just ended up a bigger and bigger mess as a result.
Love these videos!
Great discussion. So very appreciated.
Excellent Video.
I’m curious how your friend’s store weathered the rise and fall of Warmachine and Hordes? At one point WM/H was more popular (at my FLG) than any miniature wargame. The introduction of 2D terrain was one of the biggest nails in that coffin (for me).
They opened at the end of Mk3 and entertained bringing it in. They were advised against it.
To be fair, when I got into the hobby at 10 years old back in 1999, I also had zero ability to buy any starter sets or boxed games. I had to make do with individual models I thought looked cool and just imagine what it might be like to play the game. My local store was just a used bookstore with one shelf of models and zero space for gaming. Of course boxes were less expensive than they are now, but a mainline boxed Warhammer game was still something I had to wait until I got a job to get.
Braden The Skaven loves the new studio setup, yes-yes!
The discussion about the Start Collecting value kits versus the Combat Patrol kits struck a chord with me. I got into the hobby ten years ago with the Imperial Guard no less, no way I'd have been able to afford it if I was born ten years later with the money I had at the time.
I was able to buy Dark Vengeance and later the old Cadian Defence Force for about the same as you'd get two combat patrols now. Then, two years afterward came the SC box sets which were an amazing value. I was so sad to see them go. Well, the times they are-a-changin' as they say.
Great conversion, it is something that has been talked about on other channels lightly. Where is 40K going and what will it look like? I think we all know what GW would like it to look like and we see it with their release schedule. However, the fact that fewer and fewer kids are getting into the hobby should be striking alarm bells for GW. However, GW continues to focus on their competitive clientele base. This can be seen in the way the rules are being written and releasing new miniatures with overpowered stats. I think it’s really short sighted on GW's part but typical for large corporations which only care about profits.
Coming into the game in 9th I wasn’t exposed to previous editions but now I find myself looking back to see if I missed out on anything and boy did I. The rules are crunchier but you are drawn into the world and setting. You can build your own custom successor chapter with its own heraldry and lore. You are shown how to build your own terrain and there are loads of missions in the core book and in the codexs. This is a far cry from what we have today with our cookie cutter units, generic descriptions and limited war gear.
26:23 I agree 100% it is incumbent on the older hats selling that part of the game. I agree as I age playing the game is great but telling the story and setting up a narrative table is the grind for a fun way to play with the rule set. We are getting there and we are helping influence but getting someone hyped about a game and then the hobby and the table. Hard to focus down sometimes as many draws in many directions.
The entry price into the hobby decades ago (~$200) was also not too far off from buying a game system back then as well. I still have a PS2 and Xbox 360 that collect dust (I use the latter to watch DVD movies when not using a streaming platform) but had the NES, N64, and GameCube back in the day. Once video game console systems started increasing in price to the point of a personal computer (same as smartphones), I am more reluctant to purchase them, don't feel the need to keep up with the market with every new release, and not emotionally invested into that purchase. I'm sure there are many GW customers who feel the same way and simply collect and enjoy other interests while watching model releases from the outside as prices increase, "FOMO" happens with preorders, and games are not supported sufficiently (WHFB, Cursed City, etc.) while GW expands its market. I find it funny that the toy companies selling Warhammer merchandise have a notable price tag for something you can "play with" and collect that competes with just buying more GW models.
Keep these conversation videos coming they are great.
Great talk and interesting to hear from a retailer's POV.
I agree and hope the boomerang comes back in regards to the craft of personalized narrative in the hobby. I think dedicated hobby space and time are two hard areas to overcome for lots of newer hobbyists in terms of developing terrain and tables. Despite ITC standardizing terrain for tournaments, GW has been producing some amazing terrain for all their systems, that blows away anything we had back in the day :) So I think as a company they are still pushing the narrative element of their games.
I think another major influence to help the hobby will be future Sci-Fi and Fantasy movies and series that promote love of those genres. I think some solid new IPs (or even the expanding GW media) will help to promote that sense of awe in folks, the way Aliens, LOTR, Starship Troopers ❤, and others have done to inspire Warhammer hobbying over the years.
Thank you for making these videos. I always share them out to my local communities because they are POV that dont get a lot of air time, but are so important to properly respecting the business chiifes of our FLGS.
I don’t see as many new players or stores in my area. The community I’m in chases the strongest units and factions. But I endure! My orks endure.
I was all for 10th edition because it seemed like GW was doing everything right, like free rules and a promise to support the existing range. Then large swaths of my collection moved to Legends, the Indexes got pulled with each Codex release, and the entire release cycle turned into FOMO or wait six months for a retail restock. But what ultimately killed it for me was that despite hoping otherwise, it was still 40K, and the same tryhards who pushed me out during 8th and 9th still dominate the local playerbase. At this point I'm painting up my 40K backlog for display because they make me happy, and focusing my attention on AOS or other game systems. And when 11th edition rolls around in two years, I'll know better than to get my hopes up.
Sounds like a bummer, have you tried OPR?
Thanks for the video.
What's Chris' opinion on printers, especially in regards to in-store play? On one hand every model printed is a model not sold, and might encourage others to move in that direction; on the other hand like he said there's a lot of products that are unavailable for consumers regardless, also printers still purchase paint supplies, and also increases activity in the community that might otherwise not be there.
Interesting... when I started in the 80's, this was a hobby for high school and college kids (there was also the issue of language barrier for younger kids).
Stores getting stuck with too much of a release is the natural order of things when it comes to warhammer. We had to bring in 25 boxes of gorka morka back in the day and we definitely did not sell through on those lol.
Love these discussions. Wonder what would be different if it were a us retailer?? I am not interested in GW games anymore but the
Discussions are so interesting.
I dont know if it's just because I'm old and been playing for 15 years and in the lore for 20 years but GW needs to remember that the lore IS 40k. As a game it's never been the best but the world behind it has always been amazing. I do really miss when I didn't feel stressed all of the time with new releases constantly. I hope they give us a break after all of the codex releases and just spend some time getting models updated.
Excellent episode. Personally, I think things are moving too fast. If you play multiple games it’s hard to keep up with. Or even multiple factions within a game.
This video spoke to old man me; 10ed 40K IMO has been hollow - the rulebook is the most "product push" of them all and the aesthetics and metachasing of ITC gives me no interest. I've just played Necromunda much more to get my 40k fix of everything weird and wonderful about the universe, the hobby aspect and not have to chase an unsustainable release schedule.
Are there contractual obligations for FLGS' to stock a certain amount of "beginner" items? ie Leviathan or the starters?
18:40 I even heard miniwargaming (remember them?!) say that now there are just TOO many releases for them to keep up with; they simply can't follow the GW release schedule as it's too much pressure.
So if the bigger sites can't keep following the schedule the one man operation has no chance.
I still think Ash should do vids for the big new releases though! Work the algorithm Ash!
That is the problem, Order to much vs. never seeing it again... as you mentioned to see the shelf full or empty... With nothing to offer to get people in...
The codex model is such a legacy product for the younger players. They all have phones and are digital native. Having to sink money into dead books is a crazy idea for new players. They have to move to a digital subscription model for the rules so it becomes a living ruleset
I've been back into the Warhammer hobby now for over 25yrs and as have seen many changes, big and small, happen within the game of 40K, but the one I'm least found of is this move into boring terrain and table layouts that is being pushed due to the competitive scene and its 'need' for water tight game mechanics on par with chess. Boxes, L shapes and huge objective pie plates which flies in the face of the aesthetics and narrative background of the game and which makes every gaming table look the same.
i might just be some loser on the internet, but you are successful in your own right, algos be damned
Great podcast!
Any chance of having a similar one about AoS?
I think a lot of what you feel is the dominance of competitive play over narrative. They are game pieces that need simple balancing at a fast pace. The books are the narrative space. I think the death of casual play means young players can't enjoy it as fun, it's got to be competitive.
I'm 25 and I'm uncomfortable with playing with unpainted miniatures. And for myself they have to be painted before they go on the green felt.
thanks for talking about the out of stock issue, not sure how this can be good for the hobby
I honestly think the movie-set vs game hud thing is both cyclical but also more a content creation issue.
Very rarely do you see for example, channels investing in building a narrative campaign for say bat-reps.
But especially newer hobbyists will look for them for edutainment content for a new army or edition etc. So they need that top down consistency to See how deployment works or avoiding oppressive sight lines etc
But in 9th the crusade rules were somewhat hit and miss so it didn't move matched play from being the benchmark either
10th has got my wife playing 40K. The simpler rules have made it so much more accessible!
Again. I don't get it. I know lots of people who play old editions of 40k. I personally like 3rd edition the best.
I can't wrap my head around people constantly buying into these new editions. The game hasn't been good in a long time.
Well, there was a brief window during the early days of 8th. But then you gotta go back to 3rd and 4th edition.
I'm not constantly throwing money out the window just to have "the new $hit". Especially if that new stuff is worse.
Maybe it's a US thing.
There's certainly way less of that in European countries.
Seriously! The game is so bloated and more complicated than it used to be! I started with 3rd and thankfully still have my books!
With my kids though I've turned to One Page Rules and other games that cut all the fat out.
Yea, over gamification (itc terrain, Warmachine going all 2d terrain…) is a dangerous direction
What a breath of fresh air
Age of Winters 👌
I had a fun run with GW spanning a couple of decades but I am over them now. Starting to explore other games, both in production and out. I am just over GW’s business model, and if I were still really into their games, I would be really frustrated with availability. I priced what it would take to get everything for Legion Imperialis and play it as shown, and it came to $1000. Screw that. I have just about every box set from WFB 4th edition right up to 40K 10th, including Epic, Necromunda, Man O War, Warhammer Quest, Space Hulk, even Tyranid Attack. Just about everything. I love my collection, but I have zero desire to try and keep up with the hobby as it is. I really feel sorry for new gamers.
I think the opportunity there, which I’ve explored, is to go back to those old games and give them a really good refresh with all the skills you’ve learned over twenty years!
My boy is 6yr old and we are playing Space Hulk. Sorry but Space Hulk is the best starter, they need to redo a NEW SPACE HULK. PS: WH is also very expensive considering 3d printers exist, they need cheap intro kits and Combat Patrols isn't it, $200+ for 12 models and a tank WTF.
I think army based Wargames are difficult to get into. You have to be determined to paint an army of several hundred models. I remember the conversations on the plane back from a tournament were about what army to design and build for next year. It then took a year to make the army. I remember painting gem stones on wave serpents in the airport while waiting for my flight.
If you don’t like the painting and making the models you will hate 90% of the hobby.
Kill team or war cry are much better for new people. Buy a kill team to see if you like the faction. Then buy a second box and so on.
It's a parent's job to keep their kids off the 40K 😜 These nuts are fun, but what happened to the Games?
One thing that gw don't understand that I think was ashame that it was not spoke about was the scalper problem. People will turn away from products if they can't buy it. If this guy in the interview is a retailer I would like to know if he finds customers turning away from him if he sells to scslpers online. This is one reason why I turn to 3d printing. The tabletop market is heavy with scalpers.
How can gamers get into a game like 40k, that is on it's 10th edition of the rules? If GW can't get it right after 2-3 editions, how good can the rules be?
It's all a pretty curious situation. The buy-in price for 40k is higher than ever, but the game has never been more popular. GW has problems just trying to keep certain problems in stock and are always expanding their factories over time.
I think it's really, REALLY worth listening to that one podcast episode from The Painting Phase where they talk to former GW product designer Tom Hibberd. He has so many interesting insights into the industry. From the 2000s to the mid 2010s, the biggest customer demographic for GW were 20-45 year old women. (Not exact ages, I forget) This was the Moms buying stuff for their kids. GW hasn't been really accessible to kids for ages. Kinda sucks.
Honestly I think Kill Team is a much better entry into the hobby.
Honestly, I'm uncertain how correct Tom's customer demographic assertion is. I don't know where the data would come from.
GW has become the iPhone of the table-top gaming world. They've priced themselves into the premium product arena and they market themselves as the premium brand of the gaming world.
My problem is that they don't fit the premium brand, the miniatures probably are but the games themselves aren't. Eventually they're going to hit a tipping point in regards to pricing. Where they hit a price where the majority of gamers decide the cost is too high. Personally for me they've already hit that and I'm surprised that people are willing to pay the current prices.