The point you made about going to the magic shop with the glass counters and having the magician show the tricks really hits home. The shop I used to go to would ask about my experience and even recommend tricks to get started with. I, too, miss those days!
Amazing video David!! Every thing that you said is so true! We are the same age and I used to run my own magic retail business at Camden lock Market as a stall holder and other venues around London UK for 5-7 days a week for 17 years. After demonstrating and selling tricks like the Svengali deck, Floating Match, Dynamic Coins among many more…. to thousands of people, Tricks that were sold long before my time and continue to this day to be demonstrated and sold around the world by thousands of retailers to millions of people around the globe. I learned ONE clear thing about people finding out how a trick is done. And that is that every day I was able to amaze a new group of people with the same tricks over and over again. Because the world is too big! And there are enough people in the world for you to perform to that will never have seen or even heard of a Svengali deck or anything that you perform. Plus as my wife says; “it’s only you magicians that care! That take magic so seriously. Nobody else cares!
Yes, its the effort, the old guard is of the thinking that if you don't put 'put in the work' you don't deserve the knowledge. Many other professions have this way of thinking. Its the old, "I had to walk to school barefoot in the snow uphill both ways to learn" This was a fantastic video but I feel like its preaching to the choir. Many of us think like you but those that that do not wont have their minds changed. Thanks for doing what you do. We are the same age exactly and that bit about being in a shop and asking to see a trick really hit me right in the feelz. My uncle had a friend that owned a shop in the Staten Island Mall and I would go all the time and split my time between the Time Out arcade and the magic store.
What a great Tutorial you had me glue to every word you said. I enjoyed it so much and like you miss the brick and mortar shops. We have just one professional Magic Shop now in Las Vegas that I still enjoy going to and just hang out and meet the people that come in.
FANTASTIC arguments as usual🙂. If it weren’t for these times we wouldn’t be able to watch your wonderful videos, also sometimes it seems magics biggest “threat” isn’t exposure, but competing with so much other entertainment….🤷♂️ Cheers!!
Preach, David... preach it! The only nuance that I give to this is that I fault nobody for looking up a magic secret out of their own interest, just to know it. I reason that the weight of 'deception' (even when it is consensual and for entertainment) is really on us. That premise alone takes a significant chunk of people out of the game... and they aren't really "wrong" given the relativity of it all. Knowledge is power, in all things, even though I personally think that the conclusion of such folks is misguided. Great video! Especially for teaching, common magicians like me.
@@magicorthodoxy TH-cam did a dislike purge a while ago. I think they are gradually moving away from the thumbs down option. Don't know how I feel about that, but I noticed that all of my videos were 'cleansed' of dislikes... but they absolutely are/were there.
Well said, David! I started learning magic through TH-cam tutorials and probably wouldn't be a magician at all if it weren't for TH-cam. I have two anecdotes for you. First, I totally have had a spectator tell me they saw it on TH-cam. I did a performance for some of my computer science students and then asked for feedback after the performance. One of the tricks was ambitious card, and it features a particular sleight pretty heavily. The student said he had seen a tutorial on it and knew that sleight, so he knew how most of it had to work. Much to everyone's surprise, the world did not end. ;) I asked him if it detracted from his enjoyment and he said not at all, he could admire the skill and, of course, my particular presentation. My second anecdote is that most of my friends who watch me perform have told me on multiple occasions that knowing *would* ruin it for them, so they don't ask and they don't search for things. Like you said, someone has to explicitly hunt for it. If someone wants to know how a sleight is done, they can find out. In my experience, this is the same kind of person for whom magic is not diminished by revealing behind the curtain. One honest question for you: why is it exposure to show the workings of certain gimmicks, like a himber wallet or other magic wallet? We show the inner workings of sleights, so why not the gimmick? Is the concern that someone will then be able to build it themselves, thus taking away from the original creator? I would much rather know exactly what I'm getting into. Here's the perfect example: The Raven. Before buying it, I want to know exactly what it physically is and how it works so I can understand the constraints and see if that will work for me. There are so many gimmicks I've passed on because I didn't understand what I'd actually be buying.
@@Tecom38415 I guess I have a few reactions to this. 1) In terms of building blocks like sleights, most things are revealed and have been for over a century. Expert at the Card Table is 120 years old. ;) As David says, this stuff has been out there, the only difference is that TH-cam lowers the barrier a bit, but our secrecy as magicians is an illusion. Anyone who really wants to know will find out. So yes, if that bothers you, you should quit. ;) 2) I never said that we should reveal everything. What I'm saying is that it would be nice to know what I'm actually buying before I drop $160 on a magic wallet. Will the peak device work for the tricks I have in mind? 3) As stated above, I have found that people who really want to know will find out anyway and people who don't won't bother. So what are we hiding? I agree with David here, I think exposure is about intent. If you're on TH-cam showing the secrets of magic wallets, that's not great. If you have a video up on Penguin Magic showing the insides of the wallet, that's fine by my standards. That said, I'm not a magic dealer. I genuinely don't know if that's something that would hurt their sales, which is why I'm not here revealing how the magic gimmicks I have work. The last thing I want to hurt the community. So maybe another question is: can we do it in a way that doesn't hurt the sellers or the magic community?
I like that this video exists. As someone who knows an insane number of tricks as well, I personally just can't remember how everything works. If my hobby includes studying and practicing and keeping up with new stuff, and I can't even remember everything, then a casual spectator that learned how one trick works online should never phase me.
I know this video is a little older but I agree with you completely. When I was a kid the only exposure to magic I had was only on tv. I really wanted to learn but in small town Midwest there were no shops for 150 miles and and no books at the library. I wish there had been internet then. Something they need to think about and I’ll use what I do for a living as an example. I’m a historical blacksmith 3rd generation my grandfather started smithing in 1908. So I was exposed to an older world way of thinking. Many blacksmiths for centuries kept techniques and formulas secret. By the 1970s blacksmithing was almost completely gone and the internet is helping bring it back by teaching. But over the centuries thousands of techniques have been lost by keeping secrets. Now how many magic tricks have been lost from the same thing. People can start learning from books and videos both but will naturally look for others in person to learn from weather it’s a class or new friends. The argument of teaching videos takeing away money is nonsense in the long run it’ll bring more to the craft. Sorry for going on. There’s just a big parallel with what I do and I’ve already seen the outcome of the old thinking
A personal story of my learning magic. When I watched David Blaine on his first TV special, I was about 12 or 13 years old. His -The Ambitious Card- which I had no idea what it was called at the time, is what hooked me to want to learn magic and have been for over 20 years now. Unfortunately for me I didn't have a magic shop to go to but I did have and utilized the internet at the that time to essentially "learn" to the best of my ability, David Blaines magic tricks and became knowledgeable and when I grew older and had money I then could buy all the books and DVDs and tricks, gradually building up and still learning to this day. So "exposure or revealing" on the internet is great in my opinion for any young person just starting out and doesn't have access to money.
I think the non-serious people will either forget or do it once or twice and the serious people will seek to learn more and that will feed them into local communities
Not sure if I entirely agree on the succinct distinction given between the two. Intent doesn’t change the end result. Just because I intended to teach doesn’t mean that it doesn’t expose “inner circle secrets” to an audience it’s never “intended” for. This is because it’s being “taught” ( in my opinion “exposed”) in a public forum or medium ( like social media or you tube etc). This, I believe is what I feel is doing a disservice to the magic community and even spectators. It takes away the awe because methods are floating around on public platforms for any casual observer whereas in the past, you had to buy the book or video or get your magic learning privately. To post methods on public platforms is the tech equivalent of standing on the street corner telling Joe Spectator how to do a trick. That’s far different than paying a subscription fee or download fee to be “taught” the inner circle secret method. This dilemma exists because of how easy it is to have access to information these days but magicians should guard the access to these secrets because like the movie line says, “ As soon as you tell them the secret, you’re nothing to them”. Preserve the spectators awe and wonder. Post privately, not publicly.
What a great presentation. TH-cam is a great place to learn and START a relationship with Magic. I started with athe Amateur Magician's Handbook and when I didn't understand the concept that the book taught I knew I could go on TH-cam to see it performed and learn. I'm injured and have been on the couch for about a year trying to learn magic. There may be a lot on TH-cam yet you can only learn so much. The tricks being exposed are not big tricks of significance. You can only learn so much on TH-cam and eventually a student will need to find another source to learn from. And those instructions may require a bigger investment.
Very thought provoking. I'm cynical enough to think it was just about money but you've persuaded me that it's a bit deeper than that. Keep on keeping on!
Loud round of applause Dude, Magicians guard empty safes and the analogy I use when having this discussion is that there are 88 keys on a piano and the sheet music for Bach's Goldberg Variations is widely available for free. Good luck with taking advantage of that.
Absolutly agree with everything you said. Especially if you teach open book tricks in a good way (crediting, teaching it correctly etc.) it will help more than do harm
What a great video David. it's always good to hear someone grounded in reality talking sense about the subject of ''exposure''. I bet some members of TFM are blowing green and red smoke from their ears and nostrils respectively after watching this. Ray J springs to mind :)
David, great video. It gives one side of the story perfectly right. If I put myself in the shoes of a person wanting to learn magic, your views are perfect. I want to learn all secrets free on TH-cam. You also touched upon how exposure affects the sale of a magic creator. But I am more worried about magic as an art being affected by the exposure. The unfortunate fact is magic is enjoyable because it is an ultimate deception. I still perform silk vanish using TT by telling a story about how this trick was the first magic I saw and how I got hooked on to magic after that. People who don't know the secret, are still hugely mesmerized by that classic act. But many people especially young crowd have seen it many times in TH-cam. So there is no mystery. If there is no mystery, there is no enjoyment. There are exceptions to this. Linking rings for example, can be thoroughly enjoyed even if you know the secrets. Shin lim's slight of hands acts can be throughly enjoyed even if we know the methods behind them. But vast majority of the magic is not like that. Some of the classics props of magic like TT, Svengali notepads, Ambitious Card routines etc cannot be used directly in today's world. Many people after watching a good show, go and google for an exposure video. Now when I search for Penn and Teller in TH-cam, the first video that comes up is a TH-cam channel that exposes magic from Penn & Teller shows. So In my opinion, if the intention is to teach, perform it live in the public TH-cam channel, and then teach (those interested in learning for performing) in a private channel. That will serve both parties. People who genuinely want to learn will get it free, at the same time, it is safe from people who just want to know the secret (just for killing their own fun as well as their friends). Just my 2 cents.
"If there is no mystery, there is no enjoyment" I know how a lot of magic is done and still enjoy seeing magic performed. "Many people after watching a good show, go and google for an exposure video." Many people? I would argue "very few people" and there will always be those people. Great comment - great perspective!
@@magicorthodoxy I also enjoy all the magic even if I know the methods. But we are magicians and we love magic. That is why we enjoy them even if we know the methods. But laymen has a completely different perspective. They love magic because it intrigues them and mesmerizes them. The moment they know the secret, they stop enjoying it (except for some visual effects like linking rings etc.)
"But laymen has a completely different perspective." who says? My wife is not a magician and she knows how tricks are done and she loves magic. We should stop "worrying" about other people - if someone wants to RUIN the mystery for themselves - let em. The secrets are out there - the "exposure" argument is "let's not make it EASY for them" LOL the bottom line is - if they want to find the answers - they can. I don't care about those people and I am not going to live my life in fear because they exist.
Love your thoughts on this, plus many magicians happen to be dyslexic and have trouble reading...if the information is already available to free what does the form of that information matter?
Hi David, nice video and all good points. If I may, there is a comment I would like to add as a "non-magician" but as someone who enjoys doing tricks for friends and colleagues. Sometimes when I see a video exposing a trick (or even when I get the trick myself by watching it perfomed), I still buy the trick from a magic store. Simply because, without all the work carried out by such magician/s, I would have not thought about it. We seem to forget the time it takes to elaborate a new trick and all the efforts necessary. Even if the trick is simple. Even if it does not require some skills. So if we want to see the silver lining here, this could be one: if you enjoyed the trick, consider buying it to support the people that produced it.
great video and totally agree :) and the analogy with the cake is perfect :) ..... also agree on that I would never teach on video tricks from current magicians :)
Very good point David I look at it like this with the whole “I’ve seen how this is done” I a) your my performance change there mine b) the trick will also be the trick it’s how you sell it which makes it magic! But very valid point you bring up and I agree 100%!!!
One additional argument that I thought about is the one that states that 'Magic is best learned through trade apprenticeship'. It suggests that there is a seniority structure where subordinates gradually gain the keys to the kingdom. Folks in this camp will refer to a few very famous magicians that learned under previous masters, etc. But the argument completely ignores the vast majority of great acts that picked up bits and pieces along the way... as well as a whole host of acts that are completely original in both effect and method and could not have been learned from anyone. Magic is not some narrow trade subject matter. This is not metal work and we are not blacksmiths. I think these arguments come about innocently in an effort to create mystique. But they just fall flat under honest reflection.
nice presentation David 👍🏻👍🏻 Will never please everyone … and here in America, with freedom of speech, the minority is out to get “exposure” … I love learning Magic from public videos and I love teaching Magic to someone interested in the art. The Magic community wouldn’t have new, up and coming magicians without the interest generated from public videos. Thanks for sharing 👍🏻👍🏻
But why learn tricks in a public forum? There are all sorts of private resources magicians ( amateur and pro) have to learn from one another so that the mystery that is supposed to surround around magic is preserved. I mean, our art is one of mystery…not the “known”. Public forums don’t require any “skin in the game” to know those secrets and so where is the value in just giving away secrets at that point? Did the icons of magic give away their tricks to the general public? NOPE. Even the purchase of a book represents skin in the game as “an entry fee” and deters Joe Spectator
No, that wasn’t my point. I’m saying that the critical piece is where people post methods ( public or private). I’m saying as magicians, our purpose is to mystify the public. Period. To post any methods at all in a public forum ( and therefore for free and open to any passer-by) is to de-mystify the public. That goes completely against our very purpose so why do that?? For those who want to learn, it’s simply done privately. For the young magician just getting their start and not having much $$, there are plenty of inexpensive resources online. Many of the main magic retailers have programs for that exact thing ( to encourage and develop young magicians). Downloads can cost as little as $5 for a card trick or sleight. That’s less than a meal at Mcdonalds and let’s be honest. The vast majority of kids out there are walking around with an $800 Iphone or just got done gaming on an expensive Xbox or VR system etc. It’s like anything in life. If a person wants something badly enough ( in this case to learn magic) then they will make use of the many available resources to make it happen instead of simply expecting the world to just give it to them for free or hand it to them. When folks have some skin in the deal ( even a little), there is greater commitment and any art or craft demands that.
Wait. Wait. Wait. You mean I can't actually make stuff disappear and reappear. Or pull a hat out of a bunny. 👀 Uhh anywho... welcome to the wonderful world of digital information. And a big thanks to you, David, for bringing us one of the best informative content and conversations that allows the magic community to develop in this modern era.
Yeah! I drink like you tube exposure,but what can we do! Yeah I miss go to the magic store,here he closed no more store around now internet:(.thanks David for this video!
The point about the book in the library to watching a secret on TH-cam. The library takes effort clicking on TH-cam dont. Also people who watch DVD’s and call themshelf’s visual learners it’s another word for can’t be bothered to read a book .
As far as if anyone ever said "I saw that on TH-cam". Happened to me once. He thought I was using a stripper deck, which I've never used lol. I said "Go ahead examine it"
David…there’s not just ONE person wanting to know the “secrets” there’s ALOTTTTTT. I’ve had tons and tons and TONS of people come up to me after my street act and say yeah I know some magic…from tiktok and TH-cam. And the problem is that they THINK they know it all. So they don’t feel the need or want to see a magic show.
We can talk “numbers” and “views” but when the vanishing bottle effect has been revealed to over 9 million people on TikTok it’s gets me a little nervous.
I recently had a young teen party. On plus side they got so excited when they thought I was on Tik Tok. ( Unfortunately not) On the negative, one kid after the show said he knew how the rope trick worked. I said "it's clever isn't it? Don't tell anyone" But I havnt worried about exposure before. My pet peeve is the magician who has "fame " on Tik Tok, gets hired for a smart corporate and bombs badly. He deliberately entices the like n share by promising to expose a certain trick. Good article Dave.
Great show! I have always believed that a secret belongs to anyone who is willing to spend the time researching it, but magic belongs to anyone willing to spend the time to perform it. I have entertained people using effects in which they knew the method and in many cases, they still did not know how it was done. Dai Vernon performed the linking rings after it was exposed in an advertisement and still mystified thousands. Magic is not the same as method. I think that we should also stop pretending that people who demonstrated effects and/or owned brick and mortar magic shops were always the most ethical people. Case in point is Hank Lee’s Magic Factory. Hank was a scam artist long before he started stealing from a rich guy’s Am Ex. He was always happy to charge you rush shipping and often, when your package arrived it was just an envelope with a note explaining that the item was back ordered! That was just the tip of the iceberg. Many of us in the magic community were not surprised when he went to prison. The “good old days” of magic never existed. Let’s all stop romanticizing the past. And please don’t get me started on the use of misleading ad copy back in the “good old days!” Rant over. Sorry about that.
You cannot brush away the "effort"-argument. I have seen people use google to type in magic trick they have see and get an answer and to see the magician in a lesser light. A trip to the library would have been too much effort for those... Somehow I feel the easy accessibility makes the secret less valuable. Of course there is also the argument of magicians not being able to hide the magic in such a way so it becomes harder to google.... I really hate it, when magicians call the magic square a "magic square" in front of the audience.
There is a reason magic shops only sell “simple tricks” like Svengali, spongeballs, etc. it’s for a REASON. Give them a little bit….not the whole damn turkey.
It's true, over 2hrs, maybe it a way of obtaining loads of email addresses for future promotions. But sadly they're not the 6 greatest card tricks ever.
Great stuff. Make your magic entertaining regardless of exposure and you got nothing to worry about. If it wasn’t for the 52kards channel, I woulda never gotten into magic and proceeded to spend thousands of dollars on magic downloads and magic content from creators all around the world. Oh noooooo 😂
You make compelling arguments, but I can’t help but think that ultimately the huge access to information is eroding the public’s appetite for magic (as we define magic). This diminished appetite of course can affect professional magicians’ income. For example, my youngish niece is aware of the DL and she frequently exclaims, “You picked up two cards”. I think the DL has become so overexposed that it doesn’t play well out in the field to some audiences. The return of the top card to the pack and then the flip is a dead giveaway today. Again, I’m just using this as an example. The other thing to consider is analogous to the reason we don’t do a trick twice to the same audience. The second time around it’s no longer a trick in the spectators’ minds. It’s more of a puzzle to figure out. I think it’s well established and it makes perfect sense that once a trick is revealed, the usual reaction is “Oh, is that all you did?” The sense of magic and wonder are gone. Of course they are completely oblivious to the magician’s art and highly refined skill in pulling off that supposedly “simple” move undetected. This is not to refute what you have said in your video. It’s just some additional thoughts I had to add to the discussion. You are correct of course that with the explosion of the Internet, it is what it is. In this skeptical day and age, I’m blessed to have a wife who doesn’t want to know how I do things. She just wants to delight in that magical feeling from a trick done well.
I got back into magic after many years due to TH-cam tutorials. Don't have a problem with them. However, ALOT of those tutorials are garbage and I figured that out quick. Teaching say, an Erdnase change is fine, teaching it poorly is a problem.
I think livelihood needs to be addressed, or the historic idea of livelihood in the presentational arts. During the hayday of vaudeville a performer could make a living on a 15 minute routine. Not a good living, but few folks did either. That just cannot be sustained in our modern economy. The cost of doing magic is high. The cost of learning is high. The cost of practicing is high. The cost of producing magic is high. Since exposure equals zero value, free equals zero. As the distance between zero and a unit of lively hood increases linearly at some point magic will become a luxury pursuit.
Lmao hate to break to y’all but keeping it in a BOOK is DEFINITELY 90% more safe than uploading it to TH-cam. That is ALMOST a fact. Ask anyone ;) none of my friends read haha and they’ll be DAMNED before they head to book store and BUY a book on magic and sleights before they can just simply watch a 6min TH-cam video. #commonsense
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The point you made about going to the magic shop with the glass counters and having the magician show the tricks really hits home. The shop I used to go to would ask about my experience and even recommend tricks to get started with. I, too, miss those days!
yep
Amazing video David!! Every thing that you said is so true! We are the same age and I used to run my own magic retail business at Camden lock Market as a stall holder and other venues around London UK for 5-7 days a week for 17 years. After demonstrating and selling tricks like the Svengali deck, Floating Match, Dynamic Coins among many more…. to thousands of people, Tricks that were sold long before my time and continue to this day to be demonstrated and sold around the world by thousands of retailers to millions of people around the globe. I learned ONE clear thing about people finding out how a trick is done. And that is that every day I was able to amaze a new group of people with the same tricks over and over again. Because the world is too big! And there are enough people in the world for you to perform to that will never have seen or even heard of a Svengali deck or anything that you perform. Plus as my wife says; “it’s only you magicians that care! That take magic so seriously. Nobody else cares!
your wife is very wise
@@magicorthodoxy Thank you! What she said has stayed with me throughout
Yes, its the effort, the old guard is of the thinking that if you don't put 'put in the work' you don't deserve the knowledge. Many other professions have this way of thinking. Its the old, "I had to walk to school barefoot in the snow uphill both ways to learn" This was a fantastic video but I feel like its preaching to the choir. Many of us think like you but those that that do not wont have their minds changed. Thanks for doing what you do. We are the same age exactly and that bit about being in a shop and asking to see a trick really hit me right in the feelz. My uncle had a friend that owned a shop in the Staten Island Mall and I would go all the time and split my time between the Time Out arcade and the magic store.
I feel like I still have one foot in the "old guard" mentality - but I know if I don't "roll with the times" I'll get "rolled over" by progress.
I cannot thank you enough David for bringing this topic to the forefront. Well spoken my brother. Very well spoken. You are a rockstar!!!
I appreciate that
One of your best videos. Thanks for creating it.
Wow, thank you!
What a great Tutorial you had me glue to every word you said. I enjoyed it so much and like you miss the brick and mortar shops. We have just one professional Magic Shop now in Las Vegas that I still enjoy going to and just hang out and meet the people that come in.
Glad it was helpful!
FANTASTIC arguments as usual🙂. If it weren’t for these times we wouldn’t be able to watch your wonderful videos, also sometimes it seems magics biggest “threat” isn’t exposure, but competing with so much other entertainment….🤷♂️
Cheers!!
everyone has their own personal threshold of what they consider "exposure"
Preach, David... preach it!
The only nuance that I give to this is that I fault nobody for looking up a magic secret out of their own interest, just to know it. I reason that the weight of 'deception' (even when it is consensual and for entertainment) is really on us. That premise alone takes a significant chunk of people out of the game... and they aren't really "wrong" given the relativity of it all. Knowledge is power, in all things, even though I personally think that the conclusion of such folks is misguided.
Great video! Especially for teaching, common magicians like me.
thanks for stopping by
Fun fact: I've never seen a single dislike on Magicorthodoxy.
My favorite TH-cam channel. Thank you so much! You are a teaching and review guru.
oh THEY ARE there !!!
@@magicorthodoxy TH-cam did a dislike purge a while ago. I think they are gradually moving away from the thumbs down option. Don't know how I feel about that, but I noticed that all of my videos were 'cleansed' of dislikes... but they absolutely are/were there.
Well said, David! I started learning magic through TH-cam tutorials and probably wouldn't be a magician at all if it weren't for TH-cam.
I have two anecdotes for you. First, I totally have had a spectator tell me they saw it on TH-cam. I did a performance for some of my computer science students and then asked for feedback after the performance. One of the tricks was ambitious card, and it features a particular sleight pretty heavily. The student said he had seen a tutorial on it and knew that sleight, so he knew how most of it had to work. Much to everyone's surprise, the world did not end. ;) I asked him if it detracted from his enjoyment and he said not at all, he could admire the skill and, of course, my particular presentation.
My second anecdote is that most of my friends who watch me perform have told me on multiple occasions that knowing *would* ruin it for them, so they don't ask and they don't search for things. Like you said, someone has to explicitly hunt for it.
If someone wants to know how a sleight is done, they can find out. In my experience, this is the same kind of person for whom magic is not diminished by revealing behind the curtain.
One honest question for you: why is it exposure to show the workings of certain gimmicks, like a himber wallet or other magic wallet? We show the inner workings of sleights, so why not the gimmick? Is the concern that someone will then be able to build it themselves, thus taking away from the original creator? I would much rather know exactly what I'm getting into. Here's the perfect example: The Raven. Before buying it, I want to know exactly what it physically is and how it works so I can understand the constraints and see if that will work for me. There are so many gimmicks I've passed on because I didn't understand what I'd actually be buying.
yea, that's a good question, maybe another viewer has some thoughts
Thanks for your thoughtful contribution to the debate.
Absolutely relate to that. All the best.
So just reveal everything? Lol nice. I’ll just quit magic now haha
@@Tecom38415 I guess I have a few reactions to this.
1) In terms of building blocks like sleights, most things are revealed and have been for over a century. Expert at the Card Table is 120 years old. ;) As David says, this stuff has been out there, the only difference is that TH-cam lowers the barrier a bit, but our secrecy as magicians is an illusion. Anyone who really wants to know will find out. So yes, if that bothers you, you should quit. ;)
2) I never said that we should reveal everything. What I'm saying is that it would be nice to know what I'm actually buying before I drop $160 on a magic wallet. Will the peak device work for the tricks I have in mind?
3) As stated above, I have found that people who really want to know will find out anyway and people who don't won't bother. So what are we hiding?
I agree with David here, I think exposure is about intent. If you're on TH-cam showing the secrets of magic wallets, that's not great. If you have a video up on Penguin Magic showing the insides of the wallet, that's fine by my standards.
That said, I'm not a magic dealer. I genuinely don't know if that's something that would hurt their sales, which is why I'm not here revealing how the magic gimmicks I have work. The last thing I want to hurt the community.
So maybe another question is: can we do it in a way that doesn't hurt the sellers or the magic community?
You speak the truth, David. I went to the Library, I also was taught a few tricks by a magician who worked at a camera store by me.
nice !!!
I like that this video exists. As someone who knows an insane number of tricks as well, I personally just can't remember how everything works. If my hobby includes studying and practicing and keeping up with new stuff, and I can't even remember everything, then a casual spectator that learned how one trick works online should never phase me.
great comment
Agreed! The difference of teaching and exposure is the context!!!
on both the giver and the taker
Thank your for the posting. Appreciate it. & You quote Wayne Dyer....kudos there sir :)
Thank you kindly!
I know this video is a little older but I agree with you completely. When I was a kid the only exposure to magic I had was only on tv. I really wanted to learn but in small town Midwest there were no shops for 150 miles and and no books at the library. I wish there had been internet then. Something they need to think about and I’ll use what I do for a living as an example. I’m a historical blacksmith 3rd generation my grandfather started smithing in 1908. So I was exposed to an older world way of thinking. Many blacksmiths for centuries kept techniques and formulas secret. By the 1970s blacksmithing was almost completely gone and the internet is helping bring it back by teaching. But over the centuries thousands of techniques have been lost by keeping secrets. Now how many magic tricks have been lost from the same thing. People can start learning from books and videos both but will naturally look for others in person to learn from weather it’s a class or new friends. The argument of teaching videos takeing away money is nonsense in the long run it’ll bring more to the craft. Sorry for going on. There’s just a big parallel with what I do and I’ve already seen the outcome of the old thinking
Great perspective
This discussion was therapeutics. Magicians everywhere need to hear these words.
it's a good discussion to have
A personal story of my learning magic. When I watched David Blaine on his first TV special, I was about 12 or 13 years old. His -The Ambitious Card- which I had no idea what it was called at the time, is what hooked me to want to learn magic and have been for over 20 years now. Unfortunately for me I didn't have a magic shop to go to but I did have and utilized the internet at the that time to essentially "learn" to the best of my ability, David Blaines magic tricks and became knowledgeable and when I grew older and had money I then could buy all the books and DVDs and tricks, gradually building up and still learning to this day. So "exposure or revealing" on the internet is great in my opinion for any young person just starting out and doesn't have access to money.
I think the non-serious people will either forget or do it once or twice and the serious people will seek to learn more and that will feed them into local communities
Not sure if I entirely agree on the succinct distinction given between the two. Intent doesn’t change the end result. Just because I intended to teach doesn’t mean that it doesn’t expose “inner circle secrets” to an audience it’s never “intended” for. This is because it’s being “taught” ( in my opinion “exposed”) in a public forum or medium ( like social media or you tube etc). This, I believe is what I feel is doing a disservice to the magic community and even spectators. It takes away the awe because methods are floating around on public platforms for any casual observer whereas in the past, you had to buy the book or video or get your magic learning privately. To post methods on public platforms is the tech equivalent of standing on the street corner telling Joe Spectator how to do a trick. That’s far different than paying a subscription fee or download fee to be “taught” the inner circle secret method. This dilemma exists because of how easy it is to have access to information these days but magicians should guard the access to these secrets because like the movie line says, “ As soon as you tell them the secret, you’re nothing to them”. Preserve the spectators awe and wonder. Post privately, not publicly.
Great comment, I hope everyone reads this
What a great presentation. TH-cam is a great place to learn and START a relationship with Magic. I started with athe Amateur Magician's Handbook and when I didn't understand the concept that the book taught I knew I could go on TH-cam to see it performed and learn.
I'm injured and have been on the couch for about a year trying to learn magic. There may be a lot on TH-cam yet you can only learn so much. The tricks being exposed are not big tricks of significance. You can only learn so much on TH-cam and eventually a student will need to find another source to learn from. And those instructions may require a bigger investment.
very true Tony - get well
Very thought provoking. I'm cynical enough to think it was just about money but you've persuaded me that it's a bit deeper than that.
Keep on keeping on!
Thanks Gary
Loud round of applause Dude, Magicians guard empty safes and the analogy I use when having this discussion is that there are 88 keys on a piano and the sheet music for Bach's Goldberg Variations is widely available for free.
Good luck with taking advantage of that.
wonderful !!!
Absolutly agree with everything you said. Especially if you teach open book tricks in a good way (crediting, teaching it correctly etc.) it will help more than do harm
thanks for stopping by
In the end its all about conjuring smiles and wonder..long live our art
YES !!!
What a great video David. it's always good to hear someone grounded in reality talking sense about the subject of ''exposure''. I bet some members of TFM are blowing green and red smoke from their ears and nostrils respectively after watching this. Ray J springs to mind :)
why red and green?
@@magicorthodoxy Green for envy, and red to indicate how incensed they are :)
Also don't forget that "books are the only way to learn!" So tired of that argument. There are MANY ways to learn
David this was so informative and truthful. 😊👍😊😊👍👍
Glad it was helpful!
David, great video. It gives one side of the story perfectly right. If I put myself in the shoes of a person wanting to learn magic, your views are perfect. I want to learn all secrets free on TH-cam. You also touched upon how exposure affects the sale of a magic creator. But I am more worried about magic as an art being affected by the exposure. The unfortunate fact is magic is enjoyable because it is an ultimate deception. I still perform silk vanish using TT by telling a story about how this trick was the first magic I saw and how I got hooked on to magic after that. People who don't know the secret, are still hugely mesmerized by that classic act. But many people especially young crowd have seen it many times in TH-cam. So there is no mystery. If there is no mystery, there is no enjoyment. There are exceptions to this. Linking rings for example, can be thoroughly enjoyed even if you know the secrets. Shin lim's slight of hands acts can be throughly enjoyed even if we know the methods behind them. But vast majority of the magic is not like that. Some of the classics props of magic like TT, Svengali notepads, Ambitious Card routines etc cannot be used directly in today's world. Many people after watching a good show, go and google for an exposure video. Now when I search for Penn and Teller in TH-cam, the first video that comes up is a TH-cam channel that exposes magic from Penn & Teller shows. So In my opinion, if the intention is to teach, perform it live in the public TH-cam channel, and then teach (those interested in learning for performing) in a private channel. That will serve both parties. People who genuinely want to learn will get it free, at the same time, it is safe from people who just want to know the secret (just for killing their own fun as well as their friends). Just my 2 cents.
"If there is no mystery, there is no enjoyment" I know how a lot of magic is done and still enjoy seeing magic performed. "Many people after watching a good show, go and google for an exposure video." Many people? I would argue "very few people" and there will always be those people. Great comment - great perspective!
@@magicorthodoxy I also enjoy all the magic even if I know the methods. But we are magicians and we love magic. That is why we enjoy them even if we know the methods. But laymen has a completely different perspective. They love magic because it intrigues them and mesmerizes them. The moment they know the secret, they stop enjoying it (except for some visual effects like linking rings etc.)
"But laymen has a completely different perspective." who says? My wife is not a magician and she knows how tricks are done and she loves magic. We should stop "worrying" about other people - if someone wants to RUIN the mystery for themselves - let em. The secrets are out there - the "exposure" argument is "let's not make it EASY for them" LOL the bottom line is - if they want to find the answers - they can. I don't care about those people and I am not going to live my life in fear because they exist.
@@magicorthodoxy a magician’s wife is not a layman:)
Love your thoughts on this, plus many magicians happen to be dyslexic and have trouble reading...if the information is already available to free what does the form of that information matter?
very true
Hi David, nice video and all good points. If I may, there is a comment I would like to add as a "non-magician" but as someone who enjoys doing tricks for friends and colleagues. Sometimes when I see a video exposing a trick (or even when I get the trick myself by watching it perfomed), I still buy the trick from a magic store. Simply because, without all the work carried out by such magician/s, I would have not thought about it. We seem to forget the time it takes to elaborate a new trick and all the efforts necessary. Even if the trick is simple. Even if it does not require some skills. So if we want to see the silver lining here, this could be one: if you enjoyed the trick, consider buying it to support the people that produced it.
yes - solid point
great video and totally agree :) and the analogy with the cake is perfect :) ..... also agree on that I would never teach on video tricks from current magicians :)
no - never
Very good point David I look at it like this with the whole “I’ve seen how this is done” I a) your my performance change there mine b) the trick will also be the trick it’s how you sell it which makes it magic! But very valid point you bring up and I agree 100%!!!
yes - we should make our magic "look different" from other magicians
@@magicorthodoxy Absolutely! You want the person to feel that they have never seen anything like it before!!!! The magic is in the magic!!!
One additional argument that I thought about is the one that states that 'Magic is best learned through trade apprenticeship'. It suggests that there is a seniority structure where subordinates gradually gain the keys to the kingdom. Folks in this camp will refer to a few very famous magicians that learned under previous masters, etc. But the argument completely ignores the vast majority of great acts that picked up bits and pieces along the way... as well as a whole host of acts that are completely original in both effect and method and could not have been learned from anyone.
Magic is not some narrow trade subject matter. This is not metal work and we are not blacksmiths.
I think these arguments come about innocently in an effort to create mystique. But they just fall flat under honest reflection.
we live in different times
Great one , Dave.
thanks Mr Crawford
Love how you lay down the law, well said.
thanks !!!
@@magicorthodoxy no problem. I remember you gave us a shout out when we had our podcast. Been a fan of you and your honesty.
Even though magicians hate it, what you're saying is true. Fantastic video.
yep, lots of magicians dont agree with this philosophy
nice presentation David 👍🏻👍🏻
Will never please everyone … and here in America, with freedom of speech, the minority is out to get “exposure” … I love learning Magic from public videos and I love teaching Magic to someone interested in the art. The Magic community wouldn’t have new, up and coming magicians without the interest generated from public videos.
Thanks for sharing 👍🏻👍🏻
thanks for stopping by
But why learn tricks in a public forum? There are all sorts of private resources magicians ( amateur and pro) have to learn from one another so that the mystery that is supposed to surround around magic is preserved. I mean, our art is one of mystery…not the “known”. Public forums don’t require any “skin in the game” to know those secrets and so where is the value in just giving away secrets at that point? Did the icons of magic give away their tricks to the general public? NOPE. Even the purchase of a book represents skin in the game as “an entry fee” and deters Joe Spectator
@@tomsenn9344 So only people with disposable income should be allowed to learn?
No, that wasn’t my point. I’m saying that the critical piece is where people post methods ( public or private). I’m saying as magicians, our purpose is to mystify the public. Period. To post any methods at all in a public forum ( and therefore for free and open to any passer-by) is to de-mystify the public. That goes completely against our very purpose so why do that?? For those who want to learn, it’s simply done privately. For the young magician just getting their start and not having much $$, there are plenty of inexpensive resources online. Many of the main magic retailers have programs for that exact thing ( to encourage and develop young magicians). Downloads can cost as little as $5 for a card trick or sleight. That’s less than a meal at Mcdonalds and let’s be honest. The vast majority of kids out there are walking around with an $800 Iphone or just got done gaming on an expensive Xbox or VR system etc. It’s like anything in life. If a person wants something badly enough ( in this case to learn magic) then they will make use of the many available resources to make it happen instead of simply expecting the world to just give it to them for free or hand it to them. When folks have some skin in the deal ( even a little), there is greater commitment and any art or craft demands that.
That was perfect. I agree 100%.
THANKS !!!!
How would you deal with someone saying “ I know how you did that” mid performance?
you do? Me 2 !!!
Wait. Wait. Wait. You mean I can't actually make stuff disappear and reappear. Or pull a hat out of a bunny. 👀 Uhh anywho... welcome to the wonderful world of digital information. And a big thanks to you, David, for bringing us one of the best informative content and conversations that allows the magic community to develop in this modern era.
pull a hat OUT of ....
That’s so true! No one cares about the secrets of magic except magicians.
No deception= no magic= no ticket sales
The 100 something people coming out of shin Lims theater everyday say otherwise.
Yeah! I drink like you tube exposure,but what can we do! Yeah I miss go to the magic store,here he closed no more store around now internet:(.thanks David for this video!
my magic store closed as well
Please review "Sudden Box by Ebbytones"
I reviewed it in the member section
@@magicorthodoxy Ok
But if I can tell someone how it's done and they want to know how I know I then tell them who created it and what company sells it so they can buy it
Get em David.
woot woot
“ if you don’t want something exposed, put it in print “ there’s a difference.
:D
I really like this video 🔥🔥🔥
thanks
The point about the book in the library to watching a secret on TH-cam. The library takes effort clicking on TH-cam dont. Also people who watch DVD’s and call themshelf’s visual learners it’s another word for can’t be bothered to read a book .
Thanks for watching
As far as if anyone ever said "I saw that on TH-cam". Happened to me once. He thought I was using a stripper deck, which I've never used lol. I said "Go ahead examine it"
LOL - classic
David…there’s not just ONE person wanting to know the “secrets” there’s ALOTTTTTT. I’ve had tons and tons and TONS of people come up to me after my street act and say yeah I know some magic…from tiktok and TH-cam. And the problem is that they THINK they know it all. So they don’t feel the need or want to see a magic show.
yea ... they "think" they know, but they dont. Thats why we should not make our tricks "copies" of the add copy - but make it our own
We can talk “numbers” and “views” but when the vanishing bottle effect has been revealed to over 9 million people on TikTok it’s gets me a little nervous.
9 million is the population of JUST New York .... that means the rest of the country doesn't know
@@magicorthodoxy I have friends that perform that in New York haha
9 million between a population of more than 2 billion people in the planet. That’s nothing.
@@thiagorfpinheiro that’s just ONE tiktok though
@@thiagorfpinheiro Yeah,and not every 2 million views fully watched,and not all 2 million will remember😂😂😂
WELL SAID!!!!!
Thanks!!!
I recently had a young teen party. On plus side they got so excited when they thought I was on Tik Tok. ( Unfortunately not)
On the negative, one kid after the show said he knew how the rope trick worked. I said "it's clever isn't it? Don't tell anyone"
But I havnt worried about exposure before. My pet peeve is the magician who has "fame " on Tik Tok, gets hired for a smart corporate and bombs badly. He deliberately entices the like n share by promising to expose a certain trick. Good article Dave.
Thanks Colin !!!
Great show! I have always believed that a secret belongs to anyone who is willing to spend the time researching it, but magic belongs to anyone willing to spend the time to perform it. I have entertained people using effects in which they knew the method and in many cases, they still did not know how it was done. Dai Vernon performed the linking rings after it was exposed in an advertisement and still mystified thousands. Magic is not the same as method. I think that we should also stop pretending that people who demonstrated effects and/or owned brick and mortar magic shops were always the most ethical people. Case in point is Hank Lee’s Magic Factory. Hank was a scam artist long before he started stealing from a rich guy’s Am Ex. He was always happy to charge you rush shipping and often, when your package arrived it was just an envelope with a note explaining that the item was back ordered! That was just the tip of the iceberg. Many of us in the magic community were not surprised when he went to prison. The “good old days” of magic never existed. Let’s all stop romanticizing the past. And please don’t get me started on the use of misleading ad copy back in the “good old days!” Rant over. Sorry about that.
very well said ....
Well put 👏 👏
thank you
You cannot brush away the "effort"-argument. I have seen people use google to type in magic trick they have see and get an answer and to see the magician in a lesser light. A trip to the library would have been too much effort for those... Somehow I feel the easy accessibility makes the secret less valuable. Of course there is also the argument of magicians not being able to hide the magic in such a way so it becomes harder to google.... I really hate it, when magicians call the magic square a "magic square" in front of the audience.
GREAT POINT
Is it when you get your wand out in public…?
NEVER take out your wand in public
There is a reason magic shops only sell “simple tricks” like Svengali, spongeballs, etc. it’s for a REASON. Give them a little bit….not the whole damn turkey.
it's also easy on the sales people - they dont have to be "experts"
@@magicorthodoxy true but my point still stands.
Penguin posted a new download “6 greatest card trick ever” 2h 30 min tutorial with Rick Lax… cost $0.00
oh nice
It's true, over 2hrs, maybe it a way of obtaining loads of email addresses for future promotions. But sadly they're not the 6 greatest card tricks ever.
Great stuff. Make your magic entertaining regardless of exposure and you got nothing to worry about.
If it wasn’t for the 52kards channel, I woulda never gotten into magic and proceeded to spend thousands of dollars on magic downloads and magic content from creators all around the world. Oh noooooo 😂
and when 52kards started off, he got so much HATE for being an "exposure" channel
You make compelling arguments, but I can’t help but think that ultimately the huge access to information is eroding the public’s appetite for magic (as we define magic). This diminished appetite of course can affect professional magicians’ income.
For example, my youngish niece is aware of the DL and she frequently exclaims, “You picked up two cards”. I think the DL has become so overexposed that it doesn’t play well out in the field to some audiences. The return of the top card to the pack and then the flip is a dead giveaway today. Again, I’m just using this as an example.
The other thing to consider is analogous to the reason we don’t do a trick twice to the same audience. The second time around it’s no longer a trick in the spectators’ minds. It’s more of a puzzle to figure out. I think it’s well established and it makes perfect sense that once a trick is revealed, the usual reaction is “Oh, is that all you did?” The sense of magic and wonder are gone. Of course they are completely oblivious to the magician’s art and highly refined skill in pulling off that supposedly “simple” move undetected.
This is not to refute what you have said in your video. It’s just some additional thoughts I had to add to the discussion.
You are correct of course that with the explosion of the Internet, it is what it is.
In this skeptical day and age, I’m blessed to have a wife who doesn’t want to know how I do things. She just wants to delight in that magical feeling from a trick done well.
the challenge is to make all old things "new again."
@@magicorthodoxy True indeed.
I got back into magic after many years due to TH-cam tutorials. Don't have a problem with them. However, ALOT of those tutorials are garbage and I figured that out quick. Teaching say, an Erdnase change is fine, teaching it poorly is a problem.
very true
I think livelihood needs to be addressed, or the historic idea of livelihood in the presentational arts. During the hayday of vaudeville a performer could make a living on a 15 minute routine. Not a good living, but few folks did either. That just cannot be sustained in our modern economy. The cost of doing magic is high. The cost of learning is high. The cost of practicing is high. The cost of producing magic is high. Since exposure equals zero value, free equals zero. As the distance between zero and a unit of lively hood increases linearly at some point magic will become a luxury pursuit.
all good points
👍
👍 THANKS !! 👍
You have magicians on tik tok and TH-cam revealing magic
yep
Lmao hate to break to y’all but keeping it in a BOOK is DEFINITELY 90% more safe than uploading it to TH-cam. That is ALMOST a fact. Ask anyone ;) none of my friends read haha and they’ll be DAMNED before they head to book store and BUY a book on magic and sleights before they can just simply watch a 6min TH-cam video. #commonsense
I dont think anyone would disagree
who is the toxic person exposing magic with the intent of hurting magic?
did I say that?
@@magicorthodoxy you sure did, LOL!
oh the tik toker? I purposefully didnt name him - I'm not here to backstab people