Around 24:24 ish there are clear smoke cloud particals that go out whenever the corners come down. Just not super consistently. Probably every couple rotations one corner will make contact
I don't know about if it hits the ground or not but its definitely too close to the top part of the engine. Making it higher may fix the problem of it hoing backwards. That's probably the reason because the Shaft is wobbly, and that wobble probably causes the edge of component kit to hit the plank that hold pistons
I think mounting the engine with the crank being inline with the axle would be better, I’m not sure if the torque would make the car flip with the weird physics.
Precisely. Simplify the design and take the transmission out of the equation. Also, don't focus so much on torque, but power to weight ratio. Make it as light as you can so the existing power will have more effect. Try something like a v4 with the v offset front to back like a motorcycle engine
You should in theory be able to make it with the trammel, but you do need to fix a few things with what I have noticed. First, you need to use straight pipes on your gears (curved pipes jam) and also use suspension on it, since the ground is quite quirky in challenge mode. I will look into it again to see if I can fix that somehow, but it didnt affect me and some of my mates too much. Also make sure that the trammel has enough clearance off the ground and to the frame of your vehicle, since its quite large at the corners. You can of course learn advanced speed tech still, to make your life much easier. Edit: Good news, I have actually managed to make the track as smooth as possible now, by making its a single body. Of course it has always been possible before, but now it should be significantly more predictable.
@@uattias Oh it can, its a pretty standard thing on more advanced piston vehicles, especially on anything faster. If you design high speed vehicles, suspension does become a necessary component. If youre wondering how its done, its very similar to real life, where you need more complex suspension setups and driveshafts (or you just use multiple engines lol)
@@uattias First off, they dont create friction within the same creation. Secondly, they dont all have to be double wishbone. Most people actually go for solid axle suspension, to save complexity. On faster builds, you typically find a different type of engine, fitted per wheel or per axle to also negate suspension complexity. If you wanna see an example you can look up "The Nova - Piston Powered" (sorry, they wont let me send a link)
It'll probably work a bit better if you built the engine in-line with the wheels rather than perpendicular. Once you get the engine to output to both sides and build a trammel for each wheel, ya might wanna turn it into a flat 8 or a V 8 for extra horses
Ya, i think that would at least be worthwhile to try. Considering some of the highest speed vehicles we've seen in the game use trammels on the wheels, and NONE of them use the janky fixed rear-end he is using...
that's a good idea. making the power turn 90 degrees is probably eating a lot of power, and lets scrap mechanic's bad physics cause glitches that and I think more ground clearance is probably a good idea. some of the parts were pretty close to the ground and as stretchy as bearings are in scrap, I could see them possibly expanding at speed and touching the bumpy road and glitching out
@methusmit5015 I'm not a fan of 6 piston engines. Assuming the challenge gives 10 pistons like the torque one does, he can do 8 for power and 1 for either side of the pass-through into the trammels. I don't remember if this challenge gives wedges, but those would also be another alternative if he wants to "stabilize" the pass-through.
Make it like a front engine, front wheel drive (sideways engine). It will take the wheelies away, you can always have rear steering, like a forklift. 😂. Never played this game, but enjoy watching your videos.
Actually, your suggestion is superb! Converting "bad" weight to "good" weight is something all dragsters do. It translates well into scrap mechanic too... But front wheels might bounce up (Courtesy of Scrap Mechanic Physics.) a Little weight on the "nose" might fix that too...
I would try some of these gear setups on the dyno. Also, I know nothing about scrap mechanic piston engines, but I feel like a flywheel would fix a lot of your issues
@@RustTree0915Ahh yes, so that when they are off the ground when the car is doing a wheelie, they won't do anything. Like in several of the clips. Great feedback. thanks.
No. Your sarcasm was beyond unnecessary and the other guy is right. Rear steer is glitchy enough at low speeds, you don't even want to try to steer from the rear at high speeds. It's a recipe for disaster.
My only thought was maybe turn the engine sideways and have a wheel off of each end of it so you dont have to have a differential. Maybe just more weight too.
@miken966 I was thinking that too and if it's front wheel drive most of the weight will be on the driven wheels anyway and the torque will give the steering wheels at the back some traction
Have you considered having floating pistons in a boxer configuration where each piston is connected to two counter-rotating crankshafts on opposite sides of the engine? You could even lock the crankshafts with meshing gears directly off of the shaft ends giving you a grarbox-less reverse gear by connecting the output to one or the other shaft.
Question: On the timing adjustment bearing - could you put that on a seperate controller wired into the the driver seat with a loop setting and adjustment of 3 to 5 degrees or so. then pressing 'W' or 'S' would cause the timing to adjust in increments up or down.
You probably need both a sissy bar and suspension. That will make sure all wheel stay in contact evenly. When you have high torque it might be causing some wheels to touch more than the the other
So KAN built an engine that can change directions when running. You just built a Detroit 2 stroker with issues. Welcome to that real world issue. Thank's for the awesome video's KAN, and the time to make them.
I believe this isnt possible with 300 rpm, this track is 200m, the circumference of a 5x5 wheel is 3.92~ meters, 300 rpm is 5 spins a second, u get 19.2 meters per second, roughly 70 km/h (my cars which use a 300 rpm engine reach about that speed so i know the math should be righy) so to do 200 it would take more than 10 seconds, i recommend you try a trammel with 7x7 wheels or some other type of engine, never made an engine thats more than 300~ rpm but i know it exists, from what i could tell just adding more pistons to switch from inline to for example a v or a boxer isnt enough, so dont waste your time on those routs, atleast its not the whole story, just adding more pistons adds more torque not speed, please do the research for us, i really love learning it from you (btw lose the logic gates)
So you're saying he needs about 400rpm? In order to break the 300RPM, the easiest route seems to be to just stack 2 or 3 pistons *in line.* That will double the speed with which they can move the crank arm. Or you could shorten the crank arms to less than 1 unit. Something like sqrt(2)-1 units should be reasonable (since that ensures that it won't be able to collapse down to 0 units). And in order to lessen the impact of the timing logic, I'd lengthen the crank arms but stack more pistons. For example, 1 unit crank arms with 2 pistons each should be trice as sensitive to logic delays than 2 unit long crank arms with 4 pistons. The pistons do generate power on the up stroke, so there's no real reason to use 4 crank arms. In fact, that limits you to use only multiples of 4 for your drive piston count.
@@Pystro i have checked and with 2 pistons stacked i was able to reach 400 rpm, with the 7x7 wheels u will have about 22 blocks per rotation which is 5.5 meters per rotation (if u have no slips) 400 rpm means 6.66 rotations a second which means 36.6 meters per second, in 6 seconds u get 220 meters traveled, which is 20 meters that could account for lack of tractions, so yeah i guess this is the way.
@@nue-fp6yz Interesting. Theoretically, doubling the pistons should double the speed. I wonder where the difference between 2*300rpm and 400 rpm comes from. Maybe timing: 600rpm would be 10 revolutions per second, or a full revolution every 6 ticks (assuming 60 physics tps), or a direction change every 3 ticks. Even a single tick delay will hurt you on that, and you certainly can't afford an additional tick from a logic gate. Maybe the solution is to add the piston speeds in a different way: Make one engine which spins the frame of a second engine, and then the output of that second engine can be twice as fast without requiring more responsive logic.
That drive gear is an opportunity for your vehicle to have an extra direction to flip itself, and to be fairly unpredictable picking between two directions. If you run the trammel gear into it, then you're also doubling your ability to clip through the teeth by dropping a frame or two.
As you were driving you can hear something hitting the ground. If you can raise the rear of the dragster to gain more ground clearance and put the whole dragster at somewhat of a forward rake, I think you'll get better results because your weight is shifted forward and will keep your front end from lifting on accel. Take IRL top fuel dragsters and drag cars as example. They have big tires in the rear for better traction and the front end is lowered as much as it can so it won't lift under acceleration.
Few suggestions 1. Try to make clearance between trammel and the ground, put double or triple wheels on the back and put lot of weight on the back as well to make sure that wheels always touch the ground. You have to balance the weight on forward just enough to not make a wheelie. 2. You can build an 3 piston engine with 120 degree offset, it should be easier to setup timing as well (timing should offset like few degree only) *** Timing for 3 piston engine should activate the pistons few degrees after TDC (top dead center) and stop the piston few degree after full extension compared to the angle of attack on a shaft and how long the piston extends (you have to set it while running slow for fine adjustments)*** 3. Rule of timing should be the same for 4 piston engine. I should activate the piston right after TDC and deactivate just few degree of BDC (bottom dead center), again, make your timing adjustments while engine is in LOW speed, then you can crank it up the speed. (for 3 piston engine, while building it, make sure when the engine is of the lift, the shape of the pistons/bottom parts of the pistons draws an 60 degree triangle while looked from forward/backward view and then you can adjust the timings and the rest. And again, few degree after piston PASSES TDC then you have to activate it, as well as when piston PASSES BDC by few degree it should be deactivated.) I speak from experience as an mechanic in RL over 25yrs of experience with overhauling wartzilla engines on cruiser ships, it is all in timing, and it should ignite the mixture right after TDC and that's it. In this case in SM, remember that pistons also pull stuff when deactivated (not a case in real life engines) so make sure to also deactivate the piston right after BDC (bottom dead center) It should work like a charm ;) Keep up great channel and content kAN Hope something helps from here that I wrote lol can't wait to see what you've done next for this challenge and how you approach the problem. sorry for long comment
some suspentions should help. i tried building a fast car with the gas engine but it was freaking out and making wheelies, so i attached some suspentions to the wheels and put more weight on it and now its going really fast and its maintaining its stability. maybe make some changes to the drive axle because if its too long it will freak out
Gotta love how kAN learns to build piston passthrough fully vanilla, then in the next video completely forgets about them. It's more difficult in challenge mode for sure, but you could still do it. with some smart piston usage. On the other hand there is the simpler method of using a 2x1 warehouse ramp passthrough to achieve the same without using a piston. Removing the logic gates is a must in any of the challenges in this pack. It will completely solve your engine reversal problem for this kind of engine. I do believe an I4 without the logic, a trammel and the 7x7 wheels will be able to make it. The bounces are definitely not your fault. The collisions on a long strip of blocks simply isn't good no matter what you do. Personally I'd say reducing the pottential collision is best, so maybe a trik-like design. I can offer you a total of 2 services: 1. show how to build wedge-passthroughs 2. show the general layout/concept of a "Kein engine" so you can experiment with it
Though i may not be the most tech savy scrap mechanic engineer, i believe that maybe utilizing lower friction blocks may benefit near wheels, timing gears, etc. To prevent mabey a friction glitch.
If you put 4 extra sensors rotated at 45 degrees facing the wheel, you can add 4 more pistons to make it an inline 8. Then rotate all the crankshaft bearings at 45 degrees instead of 90. This is a much smoother engine than a 4 because four pistons will push the crank at the same time rather than just two. The concept is the same, as well; you can adjust the timing to make it smoother and faster.
22:56 It launches so well, but those "hiccups" are bad. I wonder if you could build the engine just in-line with the wheels, turning it 90 degrees and having it in the back. Also remember that if you want to tune a piston engine more finely you should be able to choose 1 unit increments in the controller.
19:00 Not quite Kan, you see, the increase in speed acts like a resistance. In order for the enigine to spin at 300 rpm, it's gotta put a certain amount of force into that, especially under load. With the trammel gear in place, the engine now has to spin twice as *hard* in order to get to 300 rpm. Along with some other factors, high torque engines tend to wheelie vehicles pretty hard especially when geared a certain way.
The tramel gear has the advantage that it forces a fixed gear ratio, but could theoretically be jamming up or at least causing variations in the speed and load on the engine. I wonder if it might be a better idea to go from that to a friction-based gearing. I.e. rolling a larger wheel over a smaller wheel, which in turn is rigidly connected to the larger drive wheels. That would add the advantage of functioning like a clutch (allowing you to spin the engine up to speed).
please add bearings to those curved pipe pieces you placed to counter that "shaft-glitching-out-from-the-bearing effect" 5:43 . It does a really great job on making the shaft more stable
@kANGaming you need to put the extra mass aligned with the wheels axle (not on it ofc) for it to be more efficient. the massyou put in the front countering the wheelie momentum does not push your traction wheels too the ground too much. it's like you made a bounce detector with all that torque and the heavy front maybe also extend a single block column going fowards far for example. play with rotating inertia knowing it has a ^2 factor for mass and distance from the (center of mass? axleish? idk the name in english) i also think (but i have no actual clue) that the sensor colored plate should be not changing at all over time but have a fixed angle
I'm only 4 minutes in but: 1) if you overshoot pressing Q, Shift-Q does the reverse. 2) Sensors on the crank ain't worth it. You tried that before with your 3-cylinder survival engine. Once you have enough pistons the sensors cease to function well.
Rotate the motor and make gear that comes off the motor big and the axle gear small. It will increase the rpm to the wheels at cost of torque. But you increase torque by making the piston arm longer
KAN*********** i have a suggestion try making a dyno that you can load like put a big long rod with barrels on the end so your wheels with load is turning the dyno not just the engine!!
You should do a live stream at some point and then people in the discord can maybe help teach you how to make slightly better engines with more detail.
Remember your survival piston car, you had your engine directly connected to the wheels, that might help with the jumping and jamming. Edit: i made this comment before i finished the video
I wonder if your differential isn't being weird under load. Could you maybe do a transverse engine that directly drives the rear axle via passthroughs? Fewer things to go wrong = more reliable maybe?
You shouldn't need the logic gates to turn the engine on / off via the switch. A Straight through connection sensor to piston omits the 40 click logic block timing problem.. You're using the rear piston to put the power to the road. I did notice less particle emissions between the timing fly wheel and the sensors since adding the gap. I suppose it must be smoother because particle trajectory physics don't need processing. You Could Try a 1 block gap between the wheel rims and the chassis frame.?? I'd link all the pistons to a heavy anchor frame in the start area to push a free wheeling, steerable drivers seat across the finish line within 3 seconds. Cos I'm cheesier than a Chicago Town four cheese deep pan pizza.. Trigger the pistons with a sensor memory latch so the seat can trigger the pistons then continue on its own whilst not being physically connected to the piston "Catapult". I doubt there's enough pistons to stretch all the way to the finish line.?
based on my experience building long tracks out of block there is a time where one section just glitches out and adds a 1 or 3 block high invisible block
The cool thing about a dual timing wheel is I'm pretty sure you can attach the second wheel and controller to a switch, to change the timing on the fly, or duration, rather. See, what I'm confused about is all that glitching while you drive. That makes no sense. I imagine you are losing 50% in that alone. I think a higher RPM would help, but I think the trammel should work just fine.
First time telling kAN that the dynometer is updating at 5hz (5 times pr second) 5*60 fps = 300 rpm. If he can get higher than 5hz update rate which will likely introduce lag, he WILL see that he is way higher than 300 rpm
It wouldn't make a difference The dyno can go up to 40hz but rpm stays the same Plus that assumes the game is a locked 60fps I've tested the dyno above and below and it seems to work the same
ok so you brought up switching the sensors and color wheel and i don't think it will actually change anything but imagine this, you have your main timing setting on the spinning part and then the variable timing could be adjusted by the stationery part and if the color wheel is stationary you could have a post sticking out of the top of the wheel like a big dial so basically when you have high load / low speed your dial moves left and when you have low load / high speed the dial goes right or vice versa. edit: also I'm wondering what would happen if you had more black than white or like a bow tie shape where Top Dead Center and Bottom Dead Center are missing so the piston just goes limp for an instant when its least useful. i still don't have the game so i have no clue if you can even make a piston go limp but just a thought.
Just make two separate color wheels 180 degrees out from one another and have two sensors for the outside pistons and then on the other color wheel two sensors for the inside pistons then you’ll have perfect timing
You were trying to increase the angle of the timing gear but you only had 1controller set to loop so the change was cumulative each loop. This would have resulted in inconsistent timing as it drives.
My guess is that the pipe gear is glitching through and then colliding. That'd at least explain the stop and go as well as sudden veering from it suddenly hammer torquing perpendicular. One stops the wheels and the other tries to flip the car.
Im not sure how much real enines translate to scrap mechanic. Being piston driven you would have to base it off of 2 stroke engines. Straight 6 engines internally balance far better then other inline engines with a crank offset of 60° for 2 strokes. The firing order might also be something to look into. Detroit engines made lots of 2 stroke engines back in the day that might give you a good place to learn more about inline 2 strokes.
I think you couldnt go straight because your axel and the only option you got is making a engine that's in line with your wheels and doing a double tremmel ig.
I don't know if suspension could help catching the bumps... maybe ? I think my stronger engine was a flat 4 instead of the inline 4(tho I don't have dino)
The challenge creator has some good ideas, but i think you have to have more engine rpm. There just does not seem that there could be any way to do it with only 300 rpm. Unexpectedly, I'm enjoying these piston videos.
I wonder if some of the reversing problems comes from the fact that it is a 4 piston setup. might not be enough pistons to prevent it from accidentally reversing.
why don't you set the timing disc in such a way that it adjust the timing as engine spinsup? i mean it should start firing sooner the faster it goes? use controler on the bearing that the disc is on and make it rotate back a bit with time?
Because the controller doesnt know at wich point the engine is running perfect. You would need a way to read the rpm of the engine. Also the timing changes under load so it wouldnt work when its being used
Other than fixing the ground clearance, I've got nothing... I know that pistons extend fastest when set to their 15 max range (more distance in same time = faster extension speed), but I know how to keep the thing from becoming an fps-killing UFO. The only other idea I have is layered pistons, but that would be the opposite of compact and practical, and it'd probably be quite laggy too.
Kan what you should do is try a 1 4 3 2 firing method for the piston engine and if that doesn't work then try a 4 3 1 2 firing method for the piston engine or a 4 4 1 1 2 2 piston firing method in creative mode to see which one works or to see which firing method works
Aren't trammel gear and big wheels do the same job? I think before building a trammel gear you should have tried big wheels. Maybe it is a bit bad at traction and smothness but better than lagging glitching etc.
Is there not a way to make the controls for the engine on the hot bar? I feel like that would be significantly easier than trying to make a car that runs at full speed all the time and has very little control. Also, for a better vehicle try using a transmission, I would have a step up transmission and reduce the engine speed. Probably a 1:3 ratio should work.
No matter what you do, your vehicle will get those abrupt stops. It is caused by the fact that you are driving on a large slab of the same material, and anytime you pass over a boundary of where the blocks were placed, the wheels try to glue themselves to the ground because of the odd collision physics in SM. It's the same reason why your character would bounce when you walked on it. (idk how kein intended this to be completed, but it's quite the oversight playing into what causes this to be more challenging than it needs to be.) Only solution to this without that glitch, is possibly a single wheeled vehicle. So, you aren't doing anything wrong! Your engine should have performed fine because of momentum, though, a higher torque/HP engine will make your last iteration actually go faster. That said, a linear connection would work a lot better, that way your only collision based power transfer is through the trammel gear. In my opinion, you should recreate the challenge in a creative world. Mark the distance yourself such that you can try to drag race it under the time limit. You could screenshot the materials list so you know what you are restricted to as well.
I do have to object somewhat, kans main issue was his curved gears jamming and the trammel colliding with the ground at times. The issues with the ground do exist, seems to be a challenge mode quirk and not exactly sure how to fix that. When I played it, I had 0 issues beating it, even ben and spacewalk managed to do the insane level. It does make it a bit harder, but suspension is basically all you would need to combat it Edit: I have managed to find the exact quirk that causes it and remove it out of the levels now
Gonna need some help figuring out these piston challenges...
The internet will help
Not me tho
I wish I could help but I play evertech sandbox and I did make some piston engines but they're not as good :/
Go faster.
Go faster XD problem solved @@sdff5842
I feel like you need more ground clearance for the trammel. I think when it's diagonal, the corner gets too close to the road
Pulled this up on my phone specifically to suggest this. It seems like every time it "glitches" the component kits are hitting the ground.
Around 24:24 ish there are clear smoke cloud particals that go out whenever the corners come down. Just not super consistently. Probably every couple rotations one corner will make contact
Yeah it seems like the corners of the trammel were hitting the ground. It's the only thing that makes sense.
Was about to comment the same thing
I don't know about if it hits the ground or not but its definitely too close to the top part of the engine. Making it higher may fix the problem of it hoing backwards. That's probably the reason because the Shaft is wobbly, and that wobble probably causes the edge of component kit to hit the plank that hold pistons
I think mounting the engine with the crank being inline with the axle would be better, I’m not sure if the torque would make the car flip with the weird physics.
*crank BEING the axle
Precisely. Simplify the design and take the transmission out of the equation. Also, don't focus so much on torque, but power to weight ratio. Make it as light as you can so the existing power will have more effect. Try something like a v4 with the v offset front to back like a motorcycle engine
@@Sartek what angle on the V?
"it would be kinda like doing a burnout but not"
kan you are truly a philosopher. seriously though, i love this
You should in theory be able to make it with the trammel, but you do need to fix a few things with what I have noticed. First, you need to use straight pipes on your gears (curved pipes jam) and also use suspension on it, since the ground is quite quirky in challenge mode. I will look into it again to see if I can fix that somehow, but it didnt affect me and some of my mates too much. Also make sure that the trammel has enough clearance off the ground and to the frame of your vehicle, since its quite large at the corners.
You can of course learn advanced speed tech still, to make your life much easier.
Edit: Good news, I have actually managed to make the track as smooth as possible now, by making its a single body. Of course it has always been possible before, but now it should be significantly more predictable.
🎉
Suspension on a piston car?
I don't think that will work.
@@uattias Oh it can, its a pretty standard thing on more advanced piston vehicles, especially on anything faster. If you design high speed vehicles, suspension does become a necessary component.
If youre wondering how its done, its very similar to real life, where you need more complex suspension setups and driveshafts (or you just use multiple engines lol)
@@keinanderer9930 yeah I know how dual wishbone suspension works.
But that creates complexity and friction in the system.
@@uattias First off, they dont create friction within the same creation. Secondly, they dont all have to be double wishbone. Most people actually go for solid axle suspension, to save complexity. On faster builds, you typically find a different type of engine, fitted per wheel or per axle to also negate suspension complexity. If you wanna see an example you can look up "The Nova - Piston Powered" (sorry, they wont let me send a link)
It'll probably work a bit better if you built the engine in-line with the wheels rather than perpendicular.
Once you get the engine to output to both sides and build a trammel for each wheel, ya might wanna turn it into a flat 8 or a V 8 for extra horses
Ya, i think that would at least be worthwhile to try.
Considering some of the highest speed vehicles we've seen in the game use trammels on the wheels, and NONE of them use the janky fixed rear-end he is using...
not sure he has enough piston for a flat 8 but maybe a flat 6 with 120° between each pair of piston might be doable. i'm not sure tho.
that's a good idea. making the power turn 90 degrees is probably eating a lot of power, and lets scrap mechanic's bad physics cause glitches
that and I think more ground clearance is probably a good idea. some of the parts were pretty close to the ground and as stretchy as bearings are in scrap, I could see them possibly expanding at speed and touching the bumpy road and glitching out
@methusmit5015 I'm not a fan of 6 piston engines. Assuming the challenge gives 10 pistons like the torque one does, he can do 8 for power and 1 for either side of the pass-through into the trammels. I don't remember if this challenge gives wedges, but those would also be another alternative if he wants to "stabilize" the pass-through.
A trans-axle engine when you can have a wide vehicle works better than the 90 degree offset. Less clipping through.
One could call this "The Piston Cup"....
You did what in the cup!?
@@thechh8297the most underrated joke in that movie.
Boooo!
Make the engine inline with the axle. I feel the jarring motion is due to the differential.
This may be the case. Also small correction. This build doesn't have a differential. These are just gears between two axles
@@Krokmaniak
I could of swore that wasn't the correct wording, I just took from what Kan described it as at the end. 😆
Thank you for the correction!
Make it like a front engine, front wheel drive (sideways engine). It will take the wheelies away, you can always have rear steering, like a forklift. 😂. Never played this game, but enjoy watching your videos.
Over that short of a distance he shouldn't even need the steering at all
Actually, your suggestion is superb! Converting "bad" weight to "good" weight is something all dragsters do. It translates well into scrap mechanic too...
But front wheels might bounce up (Courtesy of Scrap Mechanic Physics.) a Little weight on the "nose" might fix that too...
Rear wheel drive has a lot more force on the drive wheels, and friction is a big consideration in this game. Good suggestion, but game physics say no.
13:24 yeah, that happens in Challenge mode when you have long platforms. Found out the hard way
I would try some of these gear setups on the dyno. Also, I know nothing about scrap mechanic piston engines, but I feel like a flywheel would fix a lot of your issues
Wouldn't a front wheel drive (rear steering) remove the wheelie problem?
@@RustTree0915Ahh yes, so that when they are off the ground when the car is doing a wheelie, they won't do anything. Like in several of the clips. Great feedback. thanks.
No. Your sarcasm was beyond unnecessary and the other guy is right. Rear steer is glitchy enough at low speeds, you don't even want to try to steer from the rear at high speeds. It's a recipe for disaster.
Been keeping up with your lessons Kan. Love these piston videos.
My only thought was maybe turn the engine sideways and have a wheel off of each end of it so you dont have to have a differential. Maybe just more weight too.
And front wheel drive to stop the wheelies
@miken966 I was thinking that too and if it's front wheel drive most of the weight will be on the driven wheels anyway and the torque will give the steering wheels at the back some traction
Have you considered having floating pistons in a boxer configuration where each piston is connected to two counter-rotating crankshafts on opposite sides of the engine? You could even lock the crankshafts with meshing gears directly off of the shaft ends giving you a grarbox-less reverse gear by connecting the output to one or the other shaft.
You could probably put the timing wheel on a seperate slow controller so when you accelerate the engine doesnt immediately kick out max power
he tried that multiple times in the vid
i think having a flywheel on the engine would help the engine push through the bouncing and glitches a little bit more
Does that tremel hit wooden block above when it hit enought rpm?
Question: On the timing adjustment bearing - could you put that on a seperate controller wired into the the driver seat with a loop setting and adjustment of 3 to 5 degrees or so.
then pressing 'W' or 'S' would cause the timing to adjust in increments up or down.
You probably need both a sissy bar and suspension. That will make sure all wheel stay in contact evenly. When you have high torque it might be causing some wheels to touch more than the the other
The painting bearing is just force of habit now. He does it without even thinking about it 😂
So KAN built an engine that can change directions when running. You just built a Detroit 2 stroker with issues. Welcome to that real world issue.
Thank's for the awesome video's KAN, and the time to make them.
would a flywheel help?
this is actually really cool, i play scrap mechanic and had no idea you could do this. It's also way too complicated for me anyways so yeah..
I believe this isnt possible with 300 rpm, this track is 200m, the circumference of a 5x5 wheel is 3.92~ meters, 300 rpm is 5 spins a second, u get 19.2 meters per second, roughly 70 km/h (my cars which use a 300 rpm engine reach about that speed so i know the math should be righy) so to do 200 it would take more than 10 seconds, i recommend you try a trammel with 7x7 wheels or some other type of engine, never made an engine thats more than 300~ rpm but i know it exists, from what i could tell just adding more pistons to switch from inline to for example a v or a boxer isnt enough, so dont waste your time on those routs, atleast its not the whole story, just adding more pistons adds more torque not speed, please do the research for us, i really love learning it from you (btw lose the logic gates)
So you're saying he needs about 400rpm?
In order to break the 300RPM, the easiest route seems to be to just stack 2 or 3 pistons *in line.* That will double the speed with which they can move the crank arm.
Or you could shorten the crank arms to less than 1 unit. Something like sqrt(2)-1 units should be reasonable (since that ensures that it won't be able to collapse down to 0 units).
And in order to lessen the impact of the timing logic, I'd lengthen the crank arms but stack more pistons. For example, 1 unit crank arms with 2 pistons each should be trice as sensitive to logic delays than 2 unit long crank arms with 4 pistons. The pistons do generate power on the up stroke, so there's no real reason to use 4 crank arms. In fact, that limits you to use only multiples of 4 for your drive piston count.
@@Pystro why not try it, should add alot of torque since not only u would have 2 pistons or 3, u will have more leverage
@@Pystro i have checked and with 2 pistons stacked i was able to reach 400 rpm, with the 7x7 wheels u will have about 22 blocks per rotation which is 5.5 meters per rotation (if u have no slips) 400 rpm means 6.66 rotations a second which means 36.6 meters per second, in 6 seconds u get 220 meters traveled, which is 20 meters that could account for lack of tractions, so yeah i guess this is the way.
@@nue-fp6yz Interesting. Theoretically, doubling the pistons should double the speed. I wonder where the difference between 2*300rpm and 400 rpm comes from.
Maybe timing: 600rpm would be 10 revolutions per second, or a full revolution every 6 ticks (assuming 60 physics tps), or a direction change every 3 ticks. Even a single tick delay will hurt you on that, and you certainly can't afford an additional tick from a logic gate.
Maybe the solution is to add the piston speeds in a different way: Make one engine which spins the frame of a second engine, and then the output of that second engine can be twice as fast without requiring more responsive logic.
That drive gear is an opportunity for your vehicle to have an extra direction to flip itself, and to be fairly unpredictable picking between two directions. If you run the trammel gear into it, then you're also doubling your ability to clip through the teeth by dropping a frame or two.
As you were driving you can hear something hitting the ground. If you can raise the rear of the dragster to gain more ground clearance and put the whole dragster at somewhat of a forward rake, I think you'll get better results because your weight is shifted forward and will keep your front end from lifting on accel. Take IRL top fuel dragsters and drag cars as example. They have big tires in the rear for better traction and the front end is lowered as much as it can so it won't lift under acceleration.
Few suggestions
1. Try to make clearance between trammel and the ground, put double or triple wheels on the back and put lot of weight on the back as well to make sure that wheels always touch the ground. You have to balance the weight on forward just enough to not make a wheelie.
2. You can build an 3 piston engine with 120 degree offset, it should be easier to setup timing as well (timing should offset like few degree only)
*** Timing for 3 piston engine should activate the pistons few degrees after TDC (top dead center) and stop the piston few degree after full extension compared to the angle of attack on a shaft and how long the piston extends (you have to set it while running slow for fine adjustments)***
3. Rule of timing should be the same for 4 piston engine. I should activate the piston right after TDC and deactivate just few degree of BDC (bottom dead center), again, make your timing adjustments while engine is in LOW speed, then you can crank it up the speed.
(for 3 piston engine, while building it, make sure when the engine is of the lift, the shape of the pistons/bottom parts of the pistons draws an 60 degree triangle while looked from forward/backward view and then you can adjust the timings and the rest. And again, few degree after piston PASSES TDC then you have to activate it, as well as when piston PASSES BDC by few degree it should be deactivated.)
I speak from experience as an mechanic in RL over 25yrs of experience with overhauling wartzilla engines on cruiser ships, it is all in timing, and it should ignite the mixture right after TDC and that's it. In this case in SM, remember that pistons also pull stuff when deactivated (not a case in real life engines) so make sure to also deactivate the piston right after BDC (bottom dead center)
It should work like a charm ;)
Keep up great channel and content kAN
Hope something helps from here that I wrote lol
can't wait to see what you've done next for this challenge and how you approach the problem.
sorry for long comment
some suspentions should help. i tried building a fast car with the gas engine but it was freaking out and making wheelies, so i attached some suspentions to the wheels and put more weight on it and now its going really fast and its maintaining its stability. maybe make some changes to the drive axle because if its too long it will freak out
Gotta love how kAN learns to build piston passthrough fully vanilla, then in the next video completely forgets about them. It's more difficult in challenge mode for sure, but you could still do it. with some smart piston usage. On the other hand there is the simpler method of using a 2x1 warehouse ramp passthrough to achieve the same without using a piston.
Removing the logic gates is a must in any of the challenges in this pack. It will completely solve your engine reversal problem for this kind of engine. I do believe an I4 without the logic, a trammel and the 7x7 wheels will be able to make it.
The bounces are definitely not your fault. The collisions on a long strip of blocks simply isn't good no matter what you do. Personally I'd say reducing the pottential collision is best, so maybe a trik-like design.
I can offer you a total of 2 services:
1. show how to build wedge-passthroughs
2. show the general layout/concept of a "Kein engine" so you can experiment with it
I wonder if a clutch would work?
Though i may not be the most tech savy scrap mechanic engineer, i believe that maybe utilizing lower friction blocks may benefit near wheels, timing gears, etc. To prevent mabey a friction glitch.
I think a limited slip diff would help with the too much torque problem.
If you put 4 extra sensors rotated at 45 degrees facing the wheel, you can add 4 more pistons to make it an inline 8. Then rotate all the crankshaft bearings at 45 degrees instead of 90. This is a much smoother engine than a 4 because four pistons will push the crank at the same time rather than just two. The concept is the same, as well; you can adjust the timing to make it smoother and faster.
22:56 It launches so well, but those "hiccups" are bad. I wonder if you could build the engine just in-line with the wheels, turning it 90 degrees and having it in the back.
Also remember that if you want to tune a piston engine more finely you should be able to choose 1 unit increments in the controller.
19:00 Not quite Kan, you see, the increase in speed acts like a resistance. In order for the enigine to spin at 300 rpm, it's gotta put a certain amount of force into that, especially under load. With the trammel gear in place, the engine now has to spin twice as *hard* in order to get to 300 rpm.
Along with some other factors, high torque engines tend to wheelie vehicles pretty hard especially when geared a certain way.
The tramel gear has the advantage that it forces a fixed gear ratio, but could theoretically be jamming up or at least causing variations in the speed and load on the engine. I wonder if it might be a better idea to go from that to a friction-based gearing. I.e. rolling a larger wheel over a smaller wheel, which in turn is rigidly connected to the larger drive wheels. That would add the advantage of functioning like a clutch (allowing you to spin the engine up to speed).
please add bearings to those curved pipe pieces you placed to counter that "shaft-glitching-out-from-the-bearing effect" 5:43 . It does a really great job on making the shaft more stable
@kANGaming you need to put the extra mass aligned with the wheels axle (not on it ofc) for it to be more efficient.
the massyou put in the front countering the wheelie momentum does not push your traction wheels too the ground too much. it's like you made a bounce detector with all that torque and the heavy front
maybe also extend a single block column going fowards far for example. play with rotating inertia knowing it has a ^2 factor for mass and distance from the (center of mass? axleish? idk the name in english)
i also think (but i have no actual clue) that the sensor colored plate should be not changing at all over time but have a fixed angle
I'm only 4 minutes in but:
1) if you overshoot pressing Q, Shift-Q does the reverse.
2) Sensors on the crank ain't worth it. You tried that before with your 3-cylinder survival engine. Once you have enough pistons the sensors cease to function well.
Rotate the motor and make gear that comes off the motor big and the axle gear small. It will increase the rpm to the wheels at cost of torque. But you increase torque by making the piston arm longer
The component kits from the tremmel gear was hitting the ground
I feel like a flywheel, even a small one, would help keep it going rotating forward.
KAN*********** i have a suggestion try making a dyno that you can load like put a big long rod with barrels on the end so your wheels with load is turning the dyno not just the engine!!
You should do a live stream at some point and then people in the discord can maybe help teach you how to make slightly better engines with more detail.
Remember your survival piston car, you had your engine directly connected to the wheels, that might help with the jumping and jamming.
Edit: i made this comment before i finished the video
I wonder if your differential isn't being weird under load. Could you maybe do a transverse engine that directly drives the rear axle via passthroughs? Fewer things to go wrong = more reliable maybe?
You shouldn't need the logic gates to turn the engine on / off via the switch.
A Straight through connection sensor to piston omits the 40 click logic block timing problem..
You're using the rear piston to put the power to the road.
I did notice less particle emissions between the timing fly wheel and the sensors since adding the gap.
I suppose it must be smoother because particle trajectory physics don't need processing.
You Could Try a 1 block gap between the wheel rims and the chassis frame.??
I'd link all the pistons to a heavy anchor frame in the start area to push a free wheeling, steerable drivers seat across the finish line within 3 seconds.
Cos I'm cheesier than a Chicago Town four cheese deep pan pizza..
Trigger the pistons with a sensor memory latch so the seat can trigger the pistons then continue on its own whilst not being physically connected to the piston "Catapult".
I doubt there's enough pistons to stretch all the way to the finish line.?
based on my experience building long tracks out of block there is a time where one section just glitches out and adds a 1 or 3 block high invisible block
The cool thing about a dual timing wheel is I'm pretty sure you can attach the second wheel and controller to a switch, to change the timing on the fly, or duration, rather. See, what I'm confused about is all that glitching while you drive. That makes no sense. I imagine you are losing 50% in that alone. I think a higher RPM would help, but I think the trammel should work just fine.
kan basically neutral dropping his vehicle is so sick
With the controller setting starting the engine in reverse, you can just flip the engine around to get the desired rotational output
i would have ended my video at that point, props to you man lol
You can edit blueprints in challange mode by changing the save file
well good on you for trying
First time telling kAN that the dynometer is updating at 5hz (5 times pr second) 5*60 fps = 300 rpm. If he can get higher than 5hz update rate which will likely introduce lag, he WILL see that he is way higher than 300 rpm
It wouldn't make a difference
The dyno can go up to 40hz but rpm stays the same
Plus that assumes the game is a locked 60fps
I've tested the dyno above and below and it seems to work the same
ok so you brought up switching the sensors and color wheel and i don't think it will actually change anything but imagine this, you have your main timing setting on the spinning part and then the variable timing could be adjusted by the stationery part and if the color wheel is stationary you could have a post sticking out of the top of the wheel like a big dial so basically when you have high load / low speed your dial moves left and when you have low load / high speed the dial goes right or vice versa.
edit: also I'm wondering what would happen if you had more black than white or like a bow tie shape where Top Dead Center and Bottom Dead Center are missing so the piston just goes limp for an instant when its least useful. i still don't have the game so i have no clue if you can even make a piston go limp but just a thought.
Just make two separate color wheels 180 degrees out from one another and have two sensors for the outside pistons and then on the other color wheel two sensors for the inside pistons then you’ll have perfect timing
Like many others said, inline the driveshaft with the drive axle. Also, stack pistons for more speed!
You were trying to increase the angle of the timing gear but you only had 1controller set to loop so the change was cumulative each loop. This would have resulted in inconsistent timing as it drives.
kAN: Talks about even weight on the crank shaft.
Also kAN: Only puts weight on 2 sides (should be on 4 sides)
Why on all four? Two is enough to be symetrical
It's not about symmetry.
With 4 the weight is even throughout the rotation.
Put the drive wheels in the front
“What’s the expert level you build a catapult and launch your self?”😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I think you should try having the pistons set to one further than they need to be
yeah im seeing particles hitting from the midsection of the vehicle... you need some ground clearance
I feel like the tremel doesn't have enough room to the ground for cleanace and would the fly wheel help with load?
My guess is that the pipe gear is glitching through and then colliding. That'd at least explain the stop and go as well as sudden veering from it suddenly hammer torquing perpendicular. One stops the wheels and the other tries to flip the car.
It doesn't seem to be mentioned yet. But if you can afford the parts. Increasing the wheel base length will improve front end stability.
make a clutch system with a piston on the driveshaft and two pads made from high friction materials
i feel like the gear system could be cuasing the bouncing? it could be worth a shot having 2 through bearings
Im not sure how much real enines translate to scrap mechanic. Being piston driven you would have to base it off of 2 stroke engines. Straight 6 engines internally balance far better then other inline engines with a crank offset of 60° for 2 strokes. The firing order might also be something to look into. Detroit engines made lots of 2 stroke engines back in the day that might give you a good place to learn more about inline 2 strokes.
Since its on a car now, could you make your steering switch based and us a steering bearing to make a live adjustment timing wheeel?
I think you couldnt go straight because your axel and the only option you got is making a engine that's in line with your wheels and doing a double tremmel ig.
I don't know if suspension could help catching the bumps... maybe ?
I think my stronger engine was a flat 4 instead of the inline 4(tho I don't have dino)
Make engine between back wheels, put some weight to front end (for balancing torque), no need for gear shaft.
The challenge creator has some good ideas, but i think you have to have more engine rpm. There just does not seem that there could be any way to do it with only 300 rpm. Unexpectedly, I'm enjoying these piston videos.
Transverse front wheel drive, Ever see a honda civic have wheelie problems?
Then just have the rear be a tail dragger for linear stability
I think with the new update adding the new map, you guys should bring RO Online for another series
Love it kan😂
I mean a east west engine with a long nose makes sense here for counter rotation... also wheelie bars
Hear me out, lower rpm engine, with a dual trammel setup. So trammel to trammel for a hug increase to speed. Lower rpm for less room for error
Maybe power the front wheels instead of the back ones to avoid wheelies and also use proper wheels on the front
If you can start the build on the ground yoy should still be able to do the trough bearing trick. I don't see what would stop you.
Front wheel drive will mitigate the wheelie issue
I wonder if some of the reversing problems comes from the fact that it is a 4 piston setup. might not be enough pistons to prevent it from accidentally reversing.
why don't you set the timing disc in such a way that it adjust the timing as engine spinsup? i mean it should start firing sooner the faster it goes? use controler on the bearing that the disc is on and make it rotate back a bit with time?
Why not have a different controller move the timing wheel by 1 degree until its perfect
Because the controller doesnt know at wich point the engine is running perfect. You would need a way to read the rpm of the engine. Also the timing changes under load so it wouldnt work when its being used
Could have a controller timed out to adjust by like 30° or smth really slowly and just change the timing for better speed
Other than fixing the ground clearance, I've got nothing...
I know that pistons extend fastest when set to their 15 max range (more distance in same time = faster extension speed), but I know how to keep the thing from becoming an fps-killing UFO. The only other idea I have is layered pistons, but that would be the opposite of compact and practical, and it'd probably be quite laggy too.
"I know that pistons extend fastest when set to their 15 max" only true when connected to a controller
@@user-es6wn6pz3e After a quick test to confirm, I see that it's apparently the opposite of controllers in that shorter distance is faster... hmmm...
Kan what you should do is try a 1 4 3 2 firing method for the piston engine and if that doesn't work then try a 4 3 1 2 firing method for the piston engine or a 4 4 1 1 2 2 piston firing method in creative mode to see which one works or to see which firing method works
Cool video
Pretty sure you need a flywheel to carry the engine through it's skips.
I think the "glitch" part is just the gear hitting the ground.
Its called challenge!!! it cant be too easy!!! :D
You might be able to change your weight problem by building the engine vertically?
make a AWD piston car :D
Aren't trammel gear and big wheels do the same job? I think before building a trammel gear you should have tried big wheels. Maybe it is a bit bad at traction and smothness but better than lagging glitching etc.
i think you need to make the car itself longer bc if you look at real life dragsters they are pretty long
Is there not a way to make the controls for the engine on the hot bar? I feel like that would be significantly easier than trying to make a car that runs at full speed all the time and has very little control.
Also, for a better vehicle try using a transmission, I would have a step up transmission and reduce the engine speed. Probably a 1:3 ratio should work.
Hey kAN love your vids bro
No matter what you do, your vehicle will get those abrupt stops. It is caused by the fact that you are driving on a large slab of the same material, and anytime you pass over a boundary of where the blocks were placed, the wheels try to glue themselves to the ground because of the odd collision physics in SM. It's the same reason why your character would bounce when you walked on it. (idk how kein intended this to be completed, but it's quite the oversight playing into what causes this to be more challenging than it needs to be.) Only solution to this without that glitch, is possibly a single wheeled vehicle.
So, you aren't doing anything wrong! Your engine should have performed fine because of momentum, though, a higher torque/HP engine will make your last iteration actually go faster. That said, a linear connection would work a lot better, that way your only collision based power transfer is through the trammel gear.
In my opinion, you should recreate the challenge in a creative world. Mark the distance yourself such that you can try to drag race it under the time limit. You could screenshot the materials list so you know what you are restricted to as well.
I do have to object somewhat, kans main issue was his curved gears jamming and the trammel colliding with the ground at times.
The issues with the ground do exist, seems to be a challenge mode quirk and not exactly sure how to fix that.
When I played it, I had 0 issues beating it, even ben and spacewalk managed to do the insane level. It does make it a bit harder, but suspension is basically all you would need to combat it
Edit: I have managed to find the exact quirk that causes it and remove it out of the levels now