Ooh, jumping on that right away! TH-cam is FAR and away my favorite social media because it sparks the best conversations, debates, and good-faith criticisms.
What Hollywood calls "ironic humor" is akin to the maturity of a highschool student confessing love to his crush, and then immediately saying "I'm joking. You took it serious, didn't you?" because they fear the rejection.
Yeah perfect example it's like director don't have believe in their ability that they can create serious moment and attract audience towards it so they just take easy way out by repeating same cringe humor
Damn, I would be lying if I'd say that didn't strike a chord with me, the industry itself probably has people that are insecure of their quality and so use this to help soften the blow.
@@yash124 Frankly speaking, I actually think emotional immaturity has become much more common and accepted, and the writers display theirs in their films. People live pampered lives and don't have to 'grow up', and therefore don't learn how to handle their emotions.
yeah spot on - def the reason irony and cynicism have taken hold in modern media is because its taking fewer risks. have shallow characters or cringy dialogue? who cares, its just a joke anyway right? Ofc playing a story straight you always run into danger of making a fool out of yourself. Its very easy to make dialogue or pacing feel immature or cringe - but honestly Id take 5 failed movies that give a shit about their stories over this cynical, cowardly storytelling we have right now
I've been on a re-watching frenzy with them the last few years and that is precisely the conclusion I came to with why they are so good. And they chose to invest time and money into making them the right way
Like LOTR, I’ve been loving the new Dune movies. They care about the subject matter and take themself seriously. Can’t wait to see what they do with the 3rd one
@@Joe-kg2dv yeah. Lotr has super lovable characters and Stilgar prob came the closest in dune, but lotr still had more emotion (and better soundtrack) going into it. But I DO love how much more genuine dune feels than a lot of Hollywood atm
I wouldn't say that they took themselves seriously. I think the movies have the same tone as the books. Where everything is presented in a matter-of-fact manner. It isn't like "HOLY SH*T we got little people living in tiny houses and dragons and dwarves and sh*t. This is f*cking WILD!!" They were like "yeah there's a thousand year old evil entity living in this cave. No biggie."
That's pretty much how I feel about the Deadpool and wolverine movie. Like I know it's hard not to be invested in all the different comic book movie lore and whatnot at this point cuz there's been so many so it's kind of impossible not to identify with some of the stories. But Deadpool 3 as a movie is so meaningless without everything that came before it. Is that a bad thing? I don't know but it also has made feel very mixed feelings about it.
@@ronnope3988I give Deadpool a pass because breaking the forth wall and being ironic about everything the problem is that it really only works for Deadpool and they really should stop trying to be ironic and funny in every other super heroe movie
Guillermo del Toro is one of the filmmakers who understands this. He's talked about it in interviews, and when you watch his work you can see it. As over-the-top ridiculous as something like Pacific Rim is, he's playing it absolutely straight and the audience is invested for it.
I read an article the other day about his vision for the Hobbit... It actually sounds pretty sick, sad we never got it because the studio wanted its big action sequence
Some of the few “comic relief” moments hit so much better in LOTR because they’re so subtle and rare. When Gimli tells Aragorn “toss me..” and explains “I cannot jump the distance you’ll have to toss me!!”, then “eh.. don’t tell the elf?”. Aragorn simply replies sincerely “not a word”.
Yes, and most importantly they're the kind of jokes that real people might plausibly share in moments of tension. People do make jokes irl, but it's not all the time.
SPOILERS Theres a scene in Return of the King where Pippin is putting on his uniform after pledging his service to Gondor, and he jokingly asks "its just ceremonial right? they dont actually expect me to fight?" and gandalf/faramir (dont remember who) says "well you signed up for it" and its little bits like that throughout the movies that work well without being overly meta, like yeah sure, a midget isnt gonna be able to fight like a full-grown warrior, but he did pledge his service to Denethor and thats a solemn vow taken seriously within this world,
This joke is also built upon the former film when they escaped Moria. This is a example of "planting seeds". Give yourself stuff to build on for later without it being a major plot point so to speak. Think of whatever goes on the story as a part of a big toolbox that can be pulled out for later.
Your experiences with "Lord of the Rings" sounds little like being surrounded with cynics your whole life and then having a sincere friendship with someone: you manage to forget how much you craved it without realizing.
@@millo7295 Now? Not, I used to have not so good experiences with people and then aquired sincere friend, so I know the feeling of forgetting how much someone could crave honesty and his thoughts about expecting cynic jokes in "Lord of the Rings" reminded me of being suprised that, in contrast to those people I had bad relationships, sincerity still exists and is much stronger than postmodernist irony. Thanks for your concern!
This absolutely nails it. There's something really nasty and manipulative about getting someone to open up and then jabbing them once they're belly-up, both with storytelling and friendships. I'm a sincerely emotional person and it's a lesson I've had to learn time and time again in friendships, and it's sad when that's overtaken our storytellers, who should be the most sincere among us.
@@mariahanczewska8109there's a song by The Shins that this makes me think of... "Oh what a contrast you were to the brutes in the halls... My timid young fingers held a decent animal"
@@Maab134 They even dedicated a whole episode to it at one point. That is to say, more than 7 percent of the sherlock series is directly, inarguably, dedicated to informing you that you are stupid and/or crazy for caring about what is happening in the show.
@@Maab134Oh man, I hated that series! The whole smugness and arrogance of Sherlock and by extension, the show's, really got on my nerves. It's like they took this beloved and genuinely enjoyable character and made a mockery of everything good about it, then threw it in our face. Wtf.
I got tired of Rick and Morty for how it kept giving you a story, then laughing you for caring about it while throwing it away, and I think you nailed what's going on with it and everything else.
Yeah, I took the show as being an attempt to comment on all the nihilism in art, like it would do everything in its power to convince you that it was ironic but then the true sincerity would be allowed to bleed through - the narrative embodied by Rick himself. Like it's not just a nihilistic story with tone-deaf sincere moments like Deadpool, but a sincere one buried under the nihilism and trying to break out. "The Vat of Acid" episode was so quintessential of its intentions, showing that the inherent absurdity of (the meta) irony was destroying everything that could've been good in the family's lives. Sadly it seems that the latest season lost the plot. And I feel more betrayed giving Rick and fricking Morty a chance with the reputation it had back in the day and making an 'ackchually you need 500 IQ' comment about it now because of that :/
Yeah Rick and Morty is where I drew the line on this crap. Hated that they essentially laughed at the fact I wanted them to tell a good story, which they had for a while
@@lurkingaround7410 I think Regular Show is quite a great example of sincerity in absurdity as they'd always go into the most absurd situations you can think of (I mean really, from just playing basketballs to there being an actual God of Basketball), and they treat these weirdness with the utmost sincerity. oh, now there's a God of Street Performing? cool. no questions asked. and in the midst of all the absurdities in the show, they managed to still deliver a very relatable and emotional story about friendship, love, family, etc. all treated, with great sincerity. Regular Show will continously be my favorite animated TV show.
Rick and Morty was the exact thing I was thinking too, and for all Rick's nihilism and uncaringness the best moments of the show had shined when Rick took the people and the relationships around him seriously, it's best episodes are where it had taken itself seriously in all its absurdity, the later seasons just become more and more riddled with meta jokes and Rick just backpedling on his supposed character developement
I think the last few seasons have been really good honestly. They may not have as clear of a plot line as some people want, but they're not embarrassed of having heartfelt moments anymore either.
I think this is the reason Dune part one and two have done so well and have become a breath of fresh air because they take their world seriously and don’t feel the need to reference how absurd the world can be sometimes. Hollywood should really learn from the sucess of more sincere movies and realize that’s what the audience wants.
Yes!!! Wow!! I think it is so incredible how the adaptation was simultaneously earnest in it's respect, and sometimes fear of the plot's stakes, and also didn't make the mistake of falling into older tropes by whitewashing the moral ambiguity and gray-ness of the characters. It felt wholly original in that way. A real modern myth. I expected no less from Denis, and honestly it has always been his curiosity about the complexity and gray-ness of power and relationships of, and in relation to his characters that has left an ever-churning impact in my mind. But he is far from sterile and cerebral-it's an emotional sincerity that has driven home any metaphysical questions he asks in his stories
Absolutely, when you was younger you would watch mostly any movie, just for the fun of it.. now that I’m 23 and living a sort of adult life with real life responsibilities, I don’t find that much time to just watch movies for the fun of it, I watch for the stories and characters cause I wanna relate to them and their earned triumphs! I usually check what the people rate a movie now a days before watching it, merely because of time restraints and I don’t wanna waste my time watching something pointless. I hope with all of my heart that they make movies like they did before iPhones come to the world😭
I felt a deep sadness when you described your experience with Lord of the Rings, where you expected it to all be treated as a joke because of years of conditioning. Directors who tell you, "this is stupid, and you're stupid for liking it" should never be in charge of that project, they should be in therapy instead.
Im super thankful the Hobbit films are mostly still of the same mentality of being sincere about their storytelling, even if Legolas sticks out like a sore thumb and the final film jumped the shark, its not really making fun of anyone.
Irony is so over used not only in movies to keep the audience from feeling genuine emotion, but also in conversations where people don't want to be vulnerable by being genuine. It's hard to express that you're passionate about a topic/cause/belief without making a self-depricating joke about it, but I think we could all benefit from being a little more genuine.
Just yesterday, one of my friends who does live streaming chose the theme, "What are we grateful for?" It was sad and disappointing how many people in the comments couldn't, or wouldn't, say they were grateful for anything. They mocked him for asking the question, kept wanting to change the subject, and generally exhibited how frightened they were of expressing any pure feelings, lest they be mocked too. What's truly sad is, some of them have children.
@@georgiaurso6257 Try watching the works of Edgar Wright, Sam Mendes, David Fincher, Phil Lord & Chris Miller, Lana & Lilly Wachowski, Bong Joon-ho, Park Chan-wook, and Joel & Ethan Coen.
The internet did this. All of these problems, not just with movies, but in society today is the addiction. We are all addicted to it. Even writing this comment shows that I am addicted as well. Maybe it is time to pull the plug. We are all being turned into uninteresting, hive mind, robots. And then people wonder why sincerity has died. Any day now though reality is going to slap us in the face. It takes one order from Putin to start lobbing nukes at NATO or us. China and the USA could go to war at any minute. The middle east is at war again. Inflation has made just buying groceries difficult. But everyone sticks their head in the sand of social media just trying to make those millions before the world blows up.
This also affects people in real life. Someone will be venting about a very serious subject and then someone (sometimes including the venter) will just make a really bad joke because they think they just HAVE to be funny and ironic instead of just being genuine.
@@George-ls9ce I've had that problem in my real life. I made a joke at everything, my brain was wired to say funny stuff. I even made myself stop making jokes for a week because that was my whole personality. It came from a place of insecurity, making jokes does not force you to reveal yourself. Now, after therapy and growing up, I overshare and am overtly open. Some people don't like it, but it also inspires others to overshare and it's better to overshare than undershare, in my experience. (Funny how 'undershare' is highlighted as a typo)
Ryan Reynolds built his career being that person both in real life and on screen and I don’t understand the hype for Deadpool and Reynolds because to me it’s just cringey edgelord stuff and it’s dull.
That monologuing joke in Incredibles works because it was set up earlier when Bob & Lucius were reminiscing in the car and listening to the police scanner. It is an authentic part of that world as much as it is a meta joke but having the basis for Syndrome’s line be previously established also continues to inform on his character. He began as a super fan and has become cynical, so being self aware fits his characterization.
It also helps that while the line is amusing in it's genre-referencing it's not actually subverting the tone of the scene. It's not deflating any tension when he points out that he slipped into monologing like the trope goes, it's actually increasing it that he catches Mr. Incredible trying to manipulate him and catches him physically trying to escape, making him seem a competent threat. A post 2010s movie would have Bob actually successfully sneak away and it just be played for humor when Syndrome notices he fell into a villain trope.
@@CuteKiller313 Yup. Also this scene shows how egomaniac Syndrome is, with just a little tease got him monologuing and he let his guard down, showing the audience the flaw of his character. It foreshadows how he is going to lose, that he will get too cocky and it would blow up in his face. That scene works on many different level.
It's still the same thing that Loki does in Avengers. There's nothing wrong with that kind of meta-reference, whether explicit like in Incredibles, or implicit like in Avengers. If it's done well, it works. I feel like making a sweeping judgement against a movie trope because it's often done badly is kind of a criticism cop-out. It's like saying superhero movies are all garbage because you didn't like the last three you saw.
i love the incredibles; im just kinda lost at the connection between the police scanner scene and the monologuing scene. was there some line in the scanner scene that i didnt catch that references the future monologuing?
I think a key difference between sincere movies with funny scenes (I.e. pirates of the Caribbean, Indiana Jones) is that the humor is not about the scene/story but rather within in it. They’ll show something humorous in the world they are showing rather that putting the spotlight on the inherent absurdity of the situation.
Like when Indie grabs the hat under the closing door, or the swordsman showing off and Indie just shoots him....its a cherry on top that adds to the scene but doesn't dominate or take away from the plot at all
Exactly, and it's all in keeping with his character, too, so it totally fits! They aren't doing an ironic lampshade about action movie fight scenes, Indy's just getting tired and has more important things to do than grandstand with some idiot show-off who brought a sword to a gun fight
@@helenl3193 Funny thing is, that scene wasn't planned that way--Harrison Ford really was too tired for filming it as it was written, with Indy having a sword as well, because he was dealing with a wicked case of food poisoning. I think it works because it really was a serious situation for Harrison and he knew how to make it a sincere scenario for his character.
agreed. like Jack Sparrow does all this ridiculous stuff, but the movies are still serious the characters just roll their eyes or comment about how ridiculous it was
Aragorn might be the best depicted hero in all of fiction. He was not a superhero, except for exceptional long life. He was compassionate to the max, competent to the max, honorable to the max, brave to the max, I could go on…
Aragorn's sincerity is the most admirable thing about him, and that's saying a lot considering all his other wondrous traits you started eluding to - compassion, courage, strength etc. He is truly an epic hero, so virtuous.
I literally always say I want to marry a LOTR man😂😂 So full of love, sincerity, honour, good humour and respect. Faramir in the books is also just such an amazing character ❤❤❤
To add to your point, think of the scene in Puss in Boots: The Last Wish, when Puss is having a panic attack, and Perrito finds him there. Every single review for the film I’ve seen expresses gratitude that they didn’t use that scene for a cheap joke, and instead played it completely straight and honest. Perrito doesn’t make any quips or anything like that. The scene is silent as he lays his head down on Puss’ stomach and lets Puss catch his breath. Irony and meta humor is fine, but don’t let it come at the expense of the emotional core of your story. Because it’s those moments of pure honesty and emotional conveyance that sticks with people, long after the film released. Good stuff!
That scene is strong especially when "Last Wish" still uses meta jokes regarding fairytales. Kinda ironic, not in the story itself, but how storytellers took the wrong cues from the first "Shrek" film. It used ironic humor, but it was still sincere about sending a moral about how you should not judge people by how they look. I think "Chicken Little" (2005) was first victim of this.
Another reason why The Incredibles “monologuing” joke works is because it’s in character for Syndrome. He’s a nerd, and his primary frame of reference is comics and movies.
Syndrome is a massive hero fanboy, to the point that his whole start of darkness is not getting to be a sidekick like he wanted. Of course he's going to have all of the hero/villain interaction bits down.
Remember that is the second time this joke is used in that movie. The first is frozone talking about the olds and being bested by some villain until said villain started monologue. It shows how all the superheroes are familiar with this MO and it's just part of the job, so when syndrome does it, me incredible takes advantage of the situation because he is familiar with it. I think it makes it a little meta at least.
The Incredibles is fantastic because it's both a deconstruction of the superhero genre while also being a MASSIVE love letter to the Golden Age of Comics. It's therefore sincere despite being self-aware because it's grounded by being a family drama as well as a superhero action film. Brad Bird is a fantastic enough filmmaker to be able to deftly blend genres like this, whereas most people in Hollywood are nepotistic DEI hires forced to make entertainment by committee nowadays.
I haven’t seen it mentioned yet but the monologue joke is a Chekhov’s Gun. They set it up by having Frozone and Incredible laugh about the played out cliche in the car; always being the downfall of the villain. We see Mr. Incredible try to exploit this weakness at the midpoint of the movie, and finally we see it payoff, while Syndrome Monolgoue’s about “getting his revenge,” he has a car thrown at him. It was perfectly executed.
THIS! I hate the random quips at the end of almost every trailer. They’ll build the trailer and the music to an epic conclusion, title drop, then drop some corny self aware joke that not a single person finds funny besides those fake reactor channels.
@@thedarkcloakartist The D&D movie is actually funny though, and it knows when to be serious. It's just that D&D itself is pretty humorous even in the tabletop. ESPECIALLY in the tabletop, the _weirdest_ shit can happen there.
I wish they don't really follow the movie trailer template sometimes, it just makes them all look the exact same ones with nothing interesting or unique going on. It's okay not to follow the template, like what Longlegs is doing with their trailers. Makes it more engaging and actually interests me to watch it.
I think that makes for better humor than irony: instead of having the characters in the movie acknowledge how absurd the events are, just have absurd events and have the characters take it seriously. Leave it up to the audience to notice how absurd the events are. They're adults, they don't need the movie explaining it's jokes to you.
@@vinsplayer2634 that's exactly why it works so well. When the characters acknowledge the absurdity, it makes the characters feel like actors themselves, like they're faking, which is terrible for a character personality if it doesn't fit in the overall story.
@@MChief123 And it's also annoying, it feels like the show-makers think we're as stupid as a 3-year old and can't figure out when the stuff happening in the movie isn't ordinary.
Perfectly put. I remember hearing characters refer to crazy concepts like "the Bullet Farm", but doing so with complete earnestness, and it enriches the world so much. Gets my mind racing imagining what this place is like and what role it serves in the post-apocalyptic world the characters inhabit. So much intrigue from such a throwaway line, and all because the characters take the world they're in seriously.
This is why I feel Dune worked so well and is a big part of why it's so popular. Those two movies are definitely ones that take themselves seriously. They're not trying to be ironic or comedic. The sincere moments remain sincere. The stakes remain high. The tension is never broken by a joke or a nod to the audience.
Almost. Dune part 1 was completely solid. Dune part 2 turned Stilgar bafoon that was the butt of a joke almost every seen he's in. Not at all how he was in the books or previous adaptations. Also that scene of Paul getting slapped when he comes out of the spice trance and the sound that became a meme blasts while he's dead eyeing the camera, is literally cancer. Sorry for the rant, Dune is very special to me and I have some very strong opinions about Dune 2.
@@eddiedead2702 I mean that's fair - my partner is also a huge Dune fan and wasn't sure how to feel about Part II. All I can give is my opinion as someone who wasn't familiar with the source material but who does come from a fundamentalist religious background. I found both films great, but Part II I found particularly moving. I understand some significant changes were made (much the same with LOTR), but Stilgar to me didn't come across as a buffoon, but as a deeply religious leader. Sure there were some funny moments from him, but never in a way that felt like ironic or trying to cheapen the moment. As someone who grew up in a fundamentalist religious enviornment, I can't overstate how poignant Part II was as a film that examines religious zeal as a force for Tragedy.
@@FireflyFanatic3 Dune is popular because Villeneuve is an artist who believes in the power of visual storytelling and atmosphere. And we barely get any Villeneuves taking over blockbuster cinema.
@@eddiedead2702 I would argue that that doesn't sacrifice the sincerity of Dune in the same way that Marvel does. There are jokes in Dune the same way there are jokes in life. The fremen are not humourless people just because their lives are hard. Does it make Stilgar a bit silly early on? Yes. But in the end of the movie, especially during Paul's speech to the elders, you can see the very serious side of his faith in Paul. Both how profound and deeply held it is, and how utterly terrifying that is.
@vowgallant4049 I get that, and that's why it's tolerable in comparison. The issue I have with it is how much it deviates from the source material and changes the perception of the character. That is not Stilgar. The Fremen don't need to be portrayed as a humorless robotic society for an accurate portrayal of a singular character.
I'd argue that it works in large part because Kuzco is so insincere and is the butt of the joke. The movie has a lot of meta jokes but the whole time it's also going, "okay but THIS is what your relationship with the world is like when you become completely ironic and self-absorbed"
@@rhi-y8dtrue, it's good to see Kuzco as the butt because it has a purpose. It teaches him some humility. To be a better person. The random humor is just icing on the cake. The rest of the movie still has a solid story.
@@redshirt5126 Ich bin der Geist der stets verneint! Und das mit Recht; denn alles was entsteht Ist werth daß es zu Grunde geht; Drum besser wär’s daß nichts entstünde. So ist denn alles was ihr Sünde, Zerstörung, kurz das Böse nennt, Mein eigentliches Element.
@@panamajack5972 yeah there’s a wilful degrading of morale present in the world, but there’s still inspiring stories as well, so I wouldn’t say it’s all controlled with that intent There cannot be one without the other, Wisdom excelleth folly as light excelleth darkness
This is literally what powers behind closed doors have been molding the west into for over 50 years. Look into who made Hollywood. None of this is because money, that's a canard.
This is why TNG and Berman-era Trek succeeded. Classically trained actors like Patrick Stewart put on the space pajamas, took the clunky technobabble, and committed. Their characters never knew they were in a TV show.
Heh? Clunky technobabble? Not to be rude, but Trek had some of the most well-written, least clunky technobabble in existence. You tune in to any random clip, and if you have a layman's understanding of tech, it mostly makes sense. Unlike other franchises, where the technobabble is either incoherent or contradictory, e.g. w your tank is "compensating for terrain flux"?!? Man, I hope the terrain isn't in flux, because we're doomed if you try to run a nice flat tank through terrain that's acting like a settling bedsheet.
At least I saw this kind of tone again for Star Trek Prodigy, despite its demographic. It very much felt like Voyager---because it IS Voyager Series 2.
The Spider-Verse movies proved that Sincerity and Irony can exist in the same story and can actually enhance each other, but Marvel hasn't been using that yet.
I think the difference is that the self referential humor feels like it's coming from a place of _love_ rather than insecurity. Laughing with rather than at, yk? It feels moreso like a love-letter to everything that makes spiderman what it is, than a jab at you for daring to enjoy it. Which works perfectly to reflect the main arc of miles working out what exactly it means for _him_ to be spiderman. Hence, it enhances rather than detracting from the narrative!
@@justanothercomment Which exactly why Lord & Miller are better filmmakers than Shawn Levy, in addition to Levy not have one ounce of understanding of craft.
The overuse of subversion & flippancy makes writers look like they're afraid of being genuine, afeard of their work standing for what it is. Subversion is easy. Crafting something so powerful it becomes the standard for several generations is a monumental task.
It's a shame too. Humans were made to participate in creation, but we often shy away from it, opting for subversion and destruction because it seems easier.
@@Pan_Z They're giving the audience what they want - mindlessness. They simply don't have the attention span to watch anything they have to think about. No mysteries, no challenges or surprises. We get incompetent villains and Mary Sue heros who never lose. From Bowfinger - "Its too cerebral. We're tryin to make a movie here, not film"
yeah a lot of people underestimate how hard it is to craft something thats even just decent especially on a big project like a movie. To be fair tho I dont think its completely the writers fault here. Maybe some are scared yes, but I think hollywood is just really enforcing this type of filmmaking because its more safe and profitable. But I also think some other filmmakers are so so set on making those monumental masterpieces that they forget making something just fundamentally good. Not everything needs to be subversive, genre defining etc. Just tell the damn stories you wanna tell
@@Myyoutube625 There are definite levels to what you said. Levels that go very deep and very ancient (if linear time was objectively real and not a perceptual construct).
Especially when they resort to "dropped a bridge on him" means of subverting expectations. When they defy established lore, character motivations and internal consistency for a cheap laugh or a failed attempt of an emotional gut punch.
I like to use the boxing trunks analogy. If 99 boxers wore pink trunks and you wore plain black trunks, you're gonna stand out. However if those 99 boxers copied you and started wearing black trunks, you would stand out if you wore pink trunks. Breaking the fourth wall was funny in 2012 because it was new, now it has become the norm. So to stand out today you need to be authentic.
The Avengers scene where Hulk throws Loki around also works because it’s consistent with Hulk’s character to do that. These days they are taking essentially serious and sincere characters like Thor, have him do something cool or impressive like defeat a bunch of enemies, and then puncture his moment of triumph by having him slip on a banana peel or 💩 himself.
It’s also a suitable comeuppance for Loki himself, who has spent the whole movie taking himself VERY seriously, elevating his own ego and resentment to be more important than the survival of the Earth. When Hulk smashes him mid-monologue, it’s not just a gag - it’s a primadonna villain being not just defeated, but humiliated by one of the creatures he treated as beneath him. Joss Whedon’s style has become synonymous lazy eye-rolling ‘well THAT just happened’ moments, but we should remember he made his bones ripping the absolute hearts out of his audience on television with some of the most emotionally impactful stories in the medium. I’d say that the first Avengers movie has a balance between sincerity and humour that, say, Quantumania doesn’t.
@@Poodlestroop I think when Whedon was cooking, the humor heightened the sincere emotion but cutting through the insincere emotions. Had Hulk stopped to listen to Loki's whole grandiose monologue, where would be the sincerity in that? Or the authenticity? It would have been just another scenery chewing bit of cliche. I think the problem is that critics think they've figured out some new bad trend, when it always comes down to the same thing-- it's working or it's not. The reason Quantumania didn't work is that the jokes weren't good, not because it was trying to be funny. In the right hands, the same story, and the same approach, might have been brilliant. But critics can't just keep saying "it was undercooked," even though 99% of the time, that's the problem. The other problem, of course, is that films tend to imitate one another without understanding what it is they're trying to copy. So they copy the form of the joke, like the owlbear doing the Hulk smash routine, without the unique premise that made that routine a perfect payoff to that film. But that's what happens when you quote someone else's joke out of context instead of making one of your own. You only remind people how much funnier that other guy was. That said, Most of Dungeous & Dragons was hilarious. I kinda feel like that owlbear bit was something some bullshit exec insisted on. Uncreative people always think putting something they've seen before into something new is a creative act.
See how drastically they changed T'Challa from Civil War to Black Panther. He was serious, stoic, no-nonsense character in Civil War and once BP came around, he was just one of the quippy Marvel heroes. Like two different characters.
@@711ramen4 nothing about that horrid movie works, it character assassinates Thor and Loki, and it's the absolute worst offender of ''sincerity is for geeks; irony is for cool dudes like me, who have threesomes on the porch''. The first Thor movie clears that horrible third movie any day because it actually knows where to be serious and when to be fun. Ragnajoke doesn't know how to be either and instead reads like a derranged fanfic.
You know, i kinda want to make all these ironic film directors go back and watch The Princess Bride, which shows how you do both a deconstructive story that occasionally subverts expectations while still being sincere and telling a story you can fall in love with
I think Hollywood, especially Marvel, went too far with it. I remember the scene when Asgard was completely destroyed in Thor Ragnarok and they were all just joking around. I was like: wtf, Asgard just got destroyed, how can that be funny?!
I always think back to Jeremy Jahns and his take on the Thor: Ragnarok. "It's entertaining, but if you backed off on the comedy and let the gravity of the situation soak through, it would be even better."
It was around the time Black Widow was coming out when I was just plain tired of this whole thing and easily skipped out on. My wife's friend was talking about how she was looking forward to see it, and asked why I wasn't when I saw so many other Marvel films. "I'm tired of the villain being boring and forgettable. I'm tired of them having a serious moment, then immediately making a joke to break any tension. I'm tired of watching movies that know they are going to be leading into other movies, rather than a standalone adventure in the universe. Stories should have a beginning, middle, and ending. These movies don't end, they just go into the next one." They never got any better, only worse. Spiderman was great the same way Deadpool was great: it was an ending to multiple stories for Andrew and Tobey like DP was for many Sony characters. ENDING. It felt satisfying to finish off and tie loose ends. It just unfortunately is also another movie, in a series that we're going to get, until the series is no longer profitable to produce instead of a satisfying conclusion.
First scene I thought of when I watched this video. That “joke” really left a sour taste in my mouth leaving the cinema. Like how many people just died, and we it’s okay to make a joke? Is that what our society is like now?
There is humor to defuse tension, and then there's not taking your own story handed down to you seriously. And it only got worse form there. Taika is a buffoon. Sure, people had problems with the first Thor movie and Dark World, but the answer wasn't to make a comedy out of the acceptance of the throne and loss of home. The answer was most certainly not to have Thor bullying kids online for his schlub "friends" while neglecting his people.
Chronic irony feels like it punishes audiences for their suspension of disbelief. It also gives the sense that the film makers are insecure in what they’re making and desperate for you to like them. I like your comment on the occasional subversive joke. I think the occasional subversive joke helps add immersion, almost as if the film makers intend to say, “hey, we’re watching this with you,” rather than setting up a trap.
I'm also noticing a pattern that modern filmmakers are afraid of the reckoning or the confrontation. For example in Ahsoka, when it was revealed that Sabine had forsaken the universe to rescue Ezra, both Ezra and Ahsoka were surprisingly fine with it. It's like that writers were afraid to write a confrontation between the characters. Better writers would relish that kind of reckoning but Ahsoka's writers just threw it away. Imagine you were watching School of Rock and the writers skipped the scene where Jack Black was revealed to be a fake teacher.
@@ayamutakino I’m not familiar with ALL their work but they seem like exceptions since their work isn’t predictably subversive. Plus, Lord and Miller revel in not just comedic irony and but know to make good use of dramatic irony. They know when to be sincere.
I know. I invited a coworker to campaign with us one time, and he was like that. I had confused his irony for sincerity, and he was never invited back. We actually ended the session early because he was not getting into the role play. Yes, it's cringe, but we do it around each other, so it's not cringe and actually fun. It was not a good time, and I almost forgot about it until now.
My players are serious as a heart attack. They are dedicated to the scene and are wonderful people. Even the most irrelevant one, my very brother, plays it straight. I suppose it helps that my games tend to be pretty serious, too. Not a "no fun allowed" zone by any means. I just try to keep the goals and challenges grounded and the price of failure or even success tangible.
I never played, hoping to get the chance some day. But I think I'd inevitably make a generic good guy young hero that needs to learn true heroism and selflessness, simply cause I love this type of character. Like, the guy that thinks he's the main character but has to learn to just do his best for his friends
@dvmpld9103 I usually play a drunk/high genius cynical mage. Who's always difficult to work with but opens up by the middle and truly cares by the end. My evil runs, I'm 1000% selfish. I am the true definition of chaotic evil cause my character does what they want, when they want and don't adhere to the whims of an order or society. There's no wrong way to role play.
Dude, this was like a puzzle piece falling into place! It's like all along, I've felt as if something was amiss, but the feeling was almost subconscious. This is eye-opening. From this day on, I will forever judge movies based on this realization, and I have you to thank for that. I don't do this often, but even if I never watch another of your videos, you earned my subscription.
At 7:00 the term you’re searching for is post-irony. It’s something David foster Wallace used to talk about in the 90’s. It’s irony for it’s own sake that doesn’t point anything out other than “hey this is a lame joke but I’m commenting on how lame it is to get ahead of your criticism.” It’s empty and afraid to say anything at all. Great vid btw.
I know people like to criticize the FOX Xmen and Fantastic Four, but I've always really appreciated how different they feel from the MCU. Xmen feels incredibly mature, and Fantastic Four feels like a family adventure. Both have some humor but it never distracts from the story.
Fox xmen was great. I don't understand the criticism. The fantastic four movies weren't the best but were still enjoyable. Nevertheless I agree with your statement
@shadow-man8715 People criticized the Xmen movies for not being comic accurate, but I think the writing more than makes up for that. I say this as a comic book fan, I didn't need to see Wolverine running around in his yellow suit.
X-men days of future past is one of the best superhero movie ever even the top even when you compare it to the best of the MCU , I don’t think they have any film like DOFP
@@shadow-man8715 Let's not get ahead of ourselves, 2-3 of the movies were great, (X2, Days of Future Past and arguably the first one) a few others were alright with the rest being just as terrible as some of the MCU films today. If you watch or listen to the decently made criticisms with an open mind, you'd understand why others don't like the majority of the films.
@Deadput I'd add the first Xmen movie, and Xmen First Class. Both feel like fantastic approaches because they throw us into the world, but you never feel lost because of how well they set the stage.
What I hate the most is the lack of effort in making anything stand on its own. I’m not impressed that they’ve looked at some numbers behind the scenes and know which billion dollar movie to reference
That's funny, I don't feel so different about thse video essays to be honest. They even build this absurd mythology that has, objectively, no actual research behind it. Just feelings. But someone else said it, so it is safe to perpetuate it.
@@dantan1249 That’s where Phil Lord & Chris Miller, Edgar Wright, Sam Mendes, and the Coen brothers come in to slap you in the face and show you the possibilities of cinema.
@@futurestorytellerYou've taken a wrong turn somewhere. This isn't r/iamverysmart But no, if *everyone* is sensing that something is wrong with cinema right now, we're probably right.
@@Snowie7826 Everyone? So all 300+ million people in the country? And you know this information because you personally asked all of us? Why am I responding this way? Because you put pointless emphasis on the word "everyone". God I hate the internet
@@Snowie7826 Saying that I'm treating this thread like iamverysmart, when I'm criticizing you is the biggest unintentional self own I've seen in a long time.
Ozzy Osbourne was once asked if he listened to his own music, he said of course -- I wouldn't make a song I wouldn't listen to. It feels like the people making the big movies nowadays are making movies they wouldn't watch.
Thank you for putting into words the feelings that have been broiling in me for years. It's like having that one friend who says "hey, you got something on your shirt", and when you look down, he flicks your nose -- and he ALWAYS does that. Every time one of these modern MCU movies has a "sincere" moment, I actually almost never invest into it, because I'm holding my breath for when someone burps or makes a stupid quip and deflates the whole scene.
"O'Connell! Hey, O'Connell! It Looks To Me Like I've Got All The Horses!" "Hey, Benni! Looks To Me Like You're On The Wrong Side Of The River!" Yep, that's how you do it. This is what both characters would actually have said, it perfectly fits their own egos.
"What's the plan?" "Kill the creature. Save the girl." Perfectly threading the needle: so blatant that you *know* it is a nudge and a wink, but never actually called out -- and it is, in fact, the plan (such as it is). The equivalent of really, really dry humor, and it requires both good writing and spot-on acting to really pull it off.
David Foster Wallace said it best: "All we seem to want to do is keep ridiculing the stuff. Postmodern irony and cynicism’s become an end in itself, a measure of hip sophistication and literary savvy. Few artists dare to try to talk about ways of working toward redeeming what’s wrong, because they’ll look sentimental and naive to all the weary ironists. Irony’s gone from liberating to enslaving. There’s some great essay somewhere that has a line about irony being the song of the prisoner who’s come to love his cage.”
@@vanlinhnguyen5966 David Foster Wallace has not seen the films of Edgar Wright, Sam Mendes, The Wachowski Sisters, The Coen Brothers, and Phil Lord & Chris Miller
A good example of this is during my screening of the first Joker in 2019, and that is a pretty serious movie, but the audience I was with were actually laughing a lot during the serious and sad scenes and I was like wtf guys
A few other notes on why the "monologuing joke" serves the film, rather than undercutting it: 1. There's set-up for it in the scene where Lucius and Bob are laughing about villains monologuing. Instead of taking us out of the world, it reinforces the world were in. 2. Bob's ploy fails. So often in these modern movies, these subversions are used against the characters themselves, as if the creators want to punish and mock the characters for falling into these tropes. 3. It actually aligns with the themes of the movie, instead of irony/subversion for its own sake. Syndrome's ego is his downfall. Its actually in line for his character to monologue about himself and his plans to Bob. It also sets up his downfall, when his impractical costume gets him killed.
Came to comments to reply this as well and you explained it better than I probably would have. 👍 Very much yes - Syndrome's reference to monologuing doesn't undercut the film because it's already been established in the film that there is a canon of superhero and villain tropes that all the characters (or at least just the supers) understand. It's an in-joke of their own in-universe culture.
As an indie filmmaker myself, there's a rule I follow when writing: laugh now, cry later. It's kinda corny but basically it's this: a character will use humor to deflect from discomfort or pain but will inevitably have to deal with the discomfort or pain. They'll have to face reality. That's the growth and arc of the character, right? What I've noticed with Marvel movies is that they do the opposite: something tragic will happen but then the moment is undercut with a joke. And what this signals to the audience is that none of this matters. It's just empty spectacle and hollow stakes that ultimately mean nothing. I think this is the one connective "message" in all of these movies: nihilism. Just like you said. None of it means anything other than making more money and staying on top of the pop culture heap. And it's not even the humor so much as how it's used. Take Fight Club, for example. The Narrator in that movie has a very ironic and detached sense of humor but as the stakes in the movie rise he's forced to deal with his little creation and the snarky jokes aren't going to fix the problem he's created. It's not the snark or irony per se but how it's used in these movies: it's all there to let us know none of this matters. In these movies the heroes are always cracking jokes as they kill all the bad guys because there's no real danger or stakes. It's just like running on a treadmill to them--it's exercise. Iron Man died but RDJ is back. Wolverine died in Logan but he's back, etc, etc. Half the universe gets "snapped" out of existence but then it's back and nothing's really changed and none of it matters. Just consume Content™ and buy Funko pop, rinse, repeat.
I think that "laugh now, cry later" works is because that's how a lot of real people react, so the odd joke or laugh doesn't feel fake it feels genuine and can sometimes even feel painful
The "nihilism" you speak of in the MCU (that was tempered in Phase 1) doesn't really show itself in the Russo Bros-directed films & that's why I rank those films above the rest of them. Sure, there may be a joke undercutting some genuine pathos here or there, but Civil War & Infinity War are better about it than most. And on the DC side, The Batman doesn't do it at all. Those films are refreshing in the genre or sub-genre or whatever you want to consider superhero movies.
@@Batman88878 The Daredevil series was also serious, where the hero had to struggle many times with every (muscle) fiber of his, to win the fight. I barely can believe it was made by Netflix. He also had strong faith and moral code.
I have literally been talking about this exact thing regularly for years. And I'm a GenZer! I'm really grateful that I was raised on cinema like LOTR, and _not_ the goofy, comedic, ironic, "meta" media. As an adult now, I can't stand it, and yearn for the sincerity of the older films I grew up with. Honestly at this point 80% of the time I just watch older films. They have a _real_ sense of sincerity, nobility, heartfelt romance, deep and moving drama, beautifully portrayed archetypes, and I could go on and on and on. I know anyone who reads this comment gets it. Why would I even bother spending my time on these modern popcorn flicks when there are SO many from the 20th century that I haven't seen??
Yeah, same here. Honestly, even just rewatching the Raimi Spiderman trilogy over and over again never gets boring to me. Or the FOX Xmen films. I appreciate how sincere it feels. How different it feels from the MCU. Feel more mature. And there are so many others.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp - Yes! The _only_ superhero films I will happily rewatch are the OG Iron Man movie, the first couple Cap movies, the FOX X-Men movies, and the Dark Knight trilogy. That's it.
Counterpoint: Phil Lord & Chris Miller, The Coen Brothers, Park Chan-wook, Sam Mendes, The Wachowski Sisters, Bong Joon-ho, and Edgar Wright are some of the greatest filmmakers who ever lived.
You've outlined a major reason which I now realize why I've not been rewatching most films of the last 15 odd years or so. While I often want to rewatch anime, or older films and series. Because that sincerity in telling a story is there, where as most media now-a-days is just "look how postmodern I am! please hang out with me! I'm cool!" it just reeks of desperation.
That was exactly my thought and observation. The movies/shows that take themselves serious keep you invested even after you have finished them. It's become a rare treat but I'm glad to hear the trend is going into the opposite direction lately.
There was a debate around this in literature in the 90s that gave birth to the new sincerity movement. David Foster Wallace wrote about irony and cynicism destroying culture 35 years ago, when Seinfeld was seen as peak television. Now it's morphed into something far more disturbing: post-truth and insincere-sincerity.
Remember "The (As It Were) Seminal Importance of Terminator 2" from _Both Flesh..._ ? Man oh man, if Wallace could see what they've done since! All this spinning from what's post-post-postmodernism has me wondering if we'll ever take anything seriously again. But whadda I know? I'm just a sarcastic, cynical comment-writer, who's trying to break the fourth wall for thumb-ups, amirite? And you, Elfo, are prolly a bot. My other comment was serious.
@@dunningdunning4711 Why? That essay absolutely wrecks _Terminator 2_ for its excesses, but by today's standard of expectations, the film is like a cultural icon for what constitutes solid, serious movie storytelling. "Cool! My own terminator." Was about as close to fourth-wall breaching as it got.
@@ryudhal Maybe not. That is, of course everything is cyclical, but the time period that the cycle takes to repeat might end up being much, much longer in this case. Why? Because cultural cynicism is like having a poisoned well; sometimes the actions of a generation will reverberate through several others, so it could take a very long time before kids can learn to relax and suspend their disbelief again.
The BEST comedy is SINCERE. Irony in comedy doesnt get you gar, if you want a perfect pie to the face scene, the actors MUST act like it was a serious event.
Writers were just better back then. Most of my favorite movies are very dark and serious. But they also had lots of funny parts. Fight club, snatch, reservoir dogs, boondock saints, pulp fiction. It's definitely a lost art
I dunno. The Monty Python films were pretty postmodernist like the films of today (I’ve never watched the Meaning of Life though), but I think they’re much funnier.
I've been ranting about this for years, but I'd never heard from someone who was raised(?) on this ironic, self-aware storytelling that seems to pervade most modern releases. I felt bad for you with your opening statements but ultimately you've given me some encouragement because you've indicated that there is perhaps an intrinsic appetite for sincere storytelling. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and I can't speak for any upcoming art, but at least you have a lot of older stuff to enjoy if you haven't already.
@@hopefulpellinore5490 Edgar Wright, Sam Mendes, David Fincher, The Coen Brothers, The Wachowski Sisters, and Phil Lord & Chris Miller are some of the greatest filmmakers of all time but k 🙄
@@ayamutakino I think we're looking at different parts of media, and that's fine. I didn't claim that good films are no longer being made, but I wholeheartedly agree with the point that the original video is making: the baseline for "most" mainstream films/shows is this pervasive insincerity. You listed filmmakers who have nothing at all to do with the subject of this video. I'll assume goodwill and that you didn't intentionally misunderstand. I'm a big fan of most of the directors you listed btw.
@@hopefulpellinore5490 Actually, they do have something to do with the video. Lord & Miller, Coens, and Wright, especially, made their whole careers out of subversion and self-awareness. They’re also filmmaking masters who embraced the possibilities of cinema and had their own personal creative visions that they stuck to, no matter what movie they’re making. If fucking Deadpool is the one you deem as the blueprint and not the films (The Lego Movie, No Country for Old Men, and Shaun of the Dead, for example) of any of these filmmakers, then you never watched enough movies.
@@ayamutakino I'm really not trying to argue with you about this, but I can see you're invested. I'll end by saying that it appears to me you are comparing Vivaldi to Katy Perry simply because they wrote some songs in the same key. Rian Johnson, Taika Waititi and their ilk are *nothing* compared to the directors you listed, but sure they may have been inspired by them. "Lesser sons of greater sires" and all that. The issue at hand is the current "house style" that is now the rule rather than the exception and how it affected the author of this video as a person who was seemingly raised on it (we're likely talking last ten years at most, not about filmmakers who have decades worth of "hits"). You're barking up the wrong tree. Peace!
I think John Wick (especially the first one) is a good modern example of the power of sincerity in storytelling. The films take themselves very seriously despite being absurdly unrealistic at times. That seriousness, or rather the commitment to sincerely presenting the fictional world and characters, really helps maintain the emotionally driven story. Of course, the sequels do have that one little meta joke about how all John Wick's actions were all about his puppy. But that doesn't detract at all from the first film.
@@ericb.1384can't speak for the sequels, but for the first film I don't think it's about rooting for him. I think the writers were aware that it's kind of hard to root for a character who is as bad, if not worse, than the "villains" of the story. Most people could probably only get behind the vengeance-feuled killing spree because of the emotional impact of John Wick's dog being killed. At least that is my take on the appeal of the story as a whole.
There are some moments from these movies that take me out from the story a bit, like when someone is trying to kill John and they stop mid fight to say how much they admire him (I'm pretty sure it has happened more than once), but overall I really appreciate how seriously everything is taken.
It was funny when Joss Whedon did it in the late 90s to early 2010s. But now it's just like a child that made their parents laugh once and they keep making the same joke expecting them to laugh every time.
Couldn’t agree with you more. This is not just a movie problem btw, sincerity seems to be a rarity in every medium of entertainment these days. Although i don’t care much for the dune movies or villeneuve in general, i love how unapologetically epic his stuff is
Exactly. A very simple example would be how a lot of music nowadays have sad lyrics play on top of very upbeat and happy tracks. Like I get it's intentional, but it's not allowing me to feel the intended emotion.
It's not even just a media problem. It feels like people generally are terrified of experiencing any emotion beyond detached contempt, and can't not try to be the biggest comedian in the room at all times.
@axiss5840 you hit the nail on the head. I rarely am able to have a sincere conversation without someone butting in with their "jokes" and completely derailing the conversation.
@@thelostcosmonaut5555 I have had to teach myself to either just stop talking once someone tries to do it or keep talking through the 'joke', which usually amounts to 'haha you said something that could vaguely reference bodily functions let's stop the entire conversation so I can point it out'. Every single person wants to be the biggest comedian in the room, at all times. It's depressing.
Some things do take themselves too seriously. If what you've written is schlock, don't be offended if it's recognised as schlock. But if what you've written *is* in fact serious, well done.
@@doncorleone1553Not going to argue (cuz you’re Don Corleone, obviously). Just going to note that trite is an adjective. I think you meant tripe. Avatar’s definitely tripe. Sincere tripe.
Yeah, one of the signs that shows that Avatar *really* was conceived back in the day is that the movie never tries to be ironic. The villains are literally after a mineral called _Unobtainium_ and nobody makes fun of it
@@NIDELLANEUM 'Unobtainium' was a completely self-aware inside joke that engineers/scientists would get and dates back to the 1950s aerospace industry. It's not even the first movie to reference it. I think it's mainly just poking fun at all the fictional mcguffin metals we so often see in stories and is no less silly than something like vibranium. Even in the Avatar universe it's just a nickname, and it's only the Corpo moron who says it out loud. Its actual "scientific" name is UBH-310, a room-temperature superconductor.
This is the first video of yours that I watched - and I can't tell you how cathartic it was to finally, finally, hear the uncomfortable and unnerving experience of watching movies lately, being put into words and reason. It deeply resonated with me. Thank you!
I love this video essay. Just one correction; the substance being smoked out of the pipe by the hobbits is not “weed.” It’s “Long Bottom Leaf” which is actually just tobacco. It wasn’t until the early 70’s that all the hippies assumed it was weed, but Tolkien was a devout religious man and condemned so it would never have been used as weed by him. Just fyi
Pipe-weed is similar to, but not exactly tobacco, so there's a little room for interpretation. IMO the most egregious aspect of LOTR films lacking sincerity is when they lean into the "weed" comparison a little too hard. We're adults: you can keep it subtle/implied and we'll still get the joke.
So its weed, its fucking regular weed that doesnt get called weed in middle earth. No need to get pedantic about it. Tolkien was christian, not a mormon, he could make a joke-under-the-table about it.
It's a case of life imitating art weed wasn't slang for Marijuana until after the Lord Of The Rings came out. Specifically many hippies were fans of the books and would also call Tolkiens telephone late at night to say how much they liked the books.
One of my favorite movie lines is one of Lucy Liu in Detachment: 'It takes courage to care' she shouts at a young girl who acts like she couldn't care less about where her life is going. This can be applied both to the audiences and writers now. To venture into new stories, to take them seriously, to get invested into characters knowing it might hurt you, to *have* expectations in the first place - all of this takes courage. Taking stuff seriously is scary. Subverting expectations can be done good, in such case it's a witty joke told to the audience. But like any joke, it can be done poorly and cheaply, and then we, the viewers, are the butt of it. And no one likes to feel like a fool for caring.
@@tunnelsnakesrule7541 And they’re great for that. I hated how in Multiverse of Madness Scarlet Witch ended up being the villain, but the pure sincerity in the film cannot be overlooked. I do wonder if Raimi even wanted to use Scarlet Witch as the villain and was mandated to. I genuinely wouldn’t mind if he did another Marvel film. Preferably Blade. He’d be perfect for Blade.
It actually came to bite him back when he made Spider-Man 3. People HATED how melodramatic it was and that it had people crying all the time and talking about their feelings. Nowadays you wish you could get superhero movies where the titular character would cry without someone stepping into the frame to call him a pussy and telling him to man up.
@@SpiderkillersIncSam Raimi only directed Multiverse of Madness. The screenplay was already written, and it's unclear how much power he had to change anything in it at all. Which is why there's some standout moments visually but the story feels like such gobbledegook. How gruesome some of the deaths are, some unorthodox camera angles and transitions, etc.
One of the reasons I love going back to watch superhero movies from before the MCU was a big thing. We used to get dramas mixed with superhero elements, and now we get comedies with superhero elements mixed in.
iron man 1 was genuinely a great film no unnecessary jokes it took itself seriously, this whole comedy started with avengers 1 which was good too but unnecessary quips takes you out of the dire situations sometimes, i liked infinity war final battle.
@Maab134 Avengers 1 did a good job balancing it. You still took the situation seriously. Where it really went downhill was Age of Ultron. Even the villains were making quips in that movie. They let Whedon off the leash and he went crazy with the humor. Endgame I feel did same the same as Age of Ultron. The music and color grade made it feel like you were supposed to take things seriously, but they had nonstop jokes that really got put of hand. And the writing was just flat out lazy in Endgame as well.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp overall yes avengers 1 took itself seriously it wasn't Deadpool or anything but it still has jokes during battle of newyork, then endgame too yeah very unnecessary scenes but overall endgame has a solid sendoff and ending it had consequences so it was overall kinda worth it but still infinity was a superior film, it was different kind of avengers movie where main character wasn't avengers per say but thanos and he actually won and the movie ended nicely with him chilling on his homeworld while half the universe turns to dust.
@Maab134 Honestly, Endgame felt rushed and poorly written. I think they dropped the ball hard on everyone except for Tony. I mean, they were so lazy they literally used time travel to get the stones, and the circumstances surrounding it don't make sense. It didn't feel like a satisfying conclusion, just an ending. I think we should be demanding better. Endgame is responsible for most of the problems in Phases 4 and 5. Whatever problems people had with Thor 4, were just continuing what Endgame set up.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp final battle was rushed and poor in my opinion and could have been better tbh hulk and war machine had little to no screentime and I didn't liked how the final fight was structured it all looked very bland too many heroes and too much going on infinity war has them separated in multiple teams which worked but here it didn't worked for me, Tony's scenes with his loved ones was great and his death was great too, I think you are talking about the multiverse and the TVA thing when talking about the problems it created post endgame right?
The Planet of the Apes trilogy had great apes throwing spears at cop cars, firing assault rifles while riding on horses and fighting on the top of a collapsing tower in San Francisco, and never once do you question what's happening or thinking it looks stupid because the movies always make you feel the weight of everything that happens, making it all not only believable, but also incredibly cool.
@@Eamonshort1 The Planet of the Apes is basically a good example of anything good: worldbuilding, character arcs, music, direction. They are exceptional, it's a shame so few people know them
@@radogen7845 Yeah, while they aren't 2001 A Space Odyssey, or Tree of Life, they accomplish everything they set out to near flawlessly. And they would be great for building a first year college course around. As, again, while not being high art, when it comes to both the script/structure and the technical aspects of film making, it excells. It shows a great understanding of film making fundamentals that is sadly lacking in big budget blockbusters at the moment.
very well put. I've finally figured out why I dislike most new movies and shows. It's not necessarily the premise that bothers me, but rather the overuse of this ironic, 'wink-wink, nudge-nudge' style of storytelling.
I do wonder if internet culture has contributed to this. Internet film discourse is obsessed with relentless deconstruction, shining big spotlights on every plothole, approaching movies as if it's a challenge to see how many flaws you can spot rather than just taking it as the experience is presented. Should we be surprised that the industry has noticed and is getting ahead of us by ironically deconstructing narratives before we can so much as write an IMBD review?
I agree sometimes it really does feel like everything needs to be deconstructed as fast as possible to show off your intelligence and expertise, it leaves smaller room to sit there and appreciate when a story is actually done pretty well.
definitely a part of it. even the most out-of-touch directors and writers probably consider that reviewers will examine every line and every frame in HD and if you can't beat em, might as well join em in making fun of your movie
This. It's like moviemakers are afraid that what they're making will be mocked online and turned into a meme, so they pre-emptively mock their own movie ironically, as if saying "you can't make fun of this movie if we're self-aware and point out all the absurdity before you have a chance to".
i think a big part of why LOTR ages better than a lot of modern ironic media is because ironic media leaves very obvious space for the viewer *within* the movie. the movie acknowledges (and, essentially, insists upon) a specific audience reaction that wont always be the same with every viewing. wont be the same with every audience, every generation watching. but LOTR lets the viewer have their own input. whether it be a reaction within context of a fresh premier or a reaction in the year 2064 where everyone sees it completely differently, the audience is *allowed* to have its own reaction no matter the occasion.
I want to make a strange/silly comparison. You know those content creators on TikTok or Instagram who literally cover half the screen with their face, doing nothing but staring you with a specific expression? Yeah, sometimes modern movies seem to be doing this: they "stare" at you in a way that feels like they're saying "see, this is the exact face you should have right now"
I feel that the internet has really promoted this as well. My girlfriend, bless her soul I love her but it really bugs me that she can’t keep to sincerity because she’s been conditioned by media and her friends to think that’s just how people are and have to be. Everything must be funny, and if something takes itself seriously and can’t be seen as a joke at the moment, well that’s just goofy and now the whole thing is a joke. And that seems to be a very common sentiment right now, is that if something is serious it shouldn’t be taken seriously.
I have this exact problem with a friend. Can't hold a serious conversation with him about anything because everything eventually delves to "why you gay" or "yo mama so fat" jokes. Every. Single. Time.
Agreed lol I've been aware of this problem for a while and may have skipped over this video if it hadn't been for my girlfriend's recent labeling of anything and every thing that doesn't immediately undercut it's sincerity with some out of pocket quip as "corny" I asked her the other day "so what makes this corny?" She couldn't come up with a straight answer. Once she figures out she's been conditioned to feel that way hopefully we can get back to taking movies and certain TV shows seriously again 😂
This legitimately made me tear up. We need sincerity to understand the things that truly matter, and the damage that insincerity has caused (like you waiting for the punchline throughout LOTR or us waiting for the punchline at the end) is profound. We don’t trust or believe in anything beautiful anymore because every story we tell punishes us for being foolish enough to think that things like good and evil, or love, or honesty are anything other than props to be used and abused to make box office ‘hits.’ And this piece nails it-sincerity is why John Wick was so much fun. It’s why so many (truly terrible) movies from twenty and thirty years ago are so much better than what we make today-they were sincere. They had real stakes, even if every part of them was absurd or dumb. They carried some weight because they tried to carry some weight. Well done, sir. This is the critique we needed.
yeah remember in Lotr the two towers, Legolas made joke of Gimli height in a very tense situation or Gimli asking Aragorn to toss him over and the latter flabbergasted with the dwarf wish, he just reply with "what?"
Looking back, the fact that Nolan made a trilogy about a ninja in a bat suit fighting characters like a psychopath in clown makeup while spouting philosophy without a shred of irony, and as a result created one of the best superhero movies ever made, is kinda amazing. I legitimately can't imagine someone playing a concept like that straight these days.
@@Sergei_Ivanovich_Mosin Didn’t we all slam Christopher Nolan for taking his movies seriously? What fucking changed? And why didn’t we get to the core root of the problem, which is “we stopped listening to the artists and allowed studios to fuck them over”
@@ayamutakino I only remember a few people making fun of Nolan for that, most people I knew thought the Dark Knight movies were pure kino. Except the opening scene of TDKR, Baneposting is still a meme to this day thanks to how awkwardly written that whole scene was.
Time didn't do anything. There's merit in what he said. There will always be merit. You can go to any era and see it. Just the way he said it was a a little off
Great analysis. I feel like most comments in social media mirror this. It’s almost like we humans in modern society have become too afraid to be sincere anymore.
Finally someone recognizes the weakness of Ragnarok. Most people said it was so fun and bright, so it must be good. But I see it as the first major death of a sincere character in the MCU. Sure Thor has had his goofball moments in the avengers, but Ragnarok was a whole movie about Thor filled with an ooc Thor. That insincerity was also a big reason why Endgame was weaker than Infinity War which was SO serious.
Honestly, i enjoyed Ragnorak the first time i watched it. But every watch after it gets worse and worse. It's nowhere near as good as the Ragnorak storyline in the comics. The only scene i genuinely still like is the Doctor Strange scene. Also, totally agree on Endgame. It's almost like they want it to feel serious. The coloring and music, but then they constantly make jokes and references. It feels like it was made by completely different people.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lpBro that's exactly how I felt about Ragnorak. First time watching it was a blast. Then after watching it for the second and third time, I just got annoyed. It didn't help that the Thor comics I was reading made me despise what they were doing with him in the MCU. Reading the Thor comics was almost like reading Lord of Rings. A vast world with sorcerery, elves, giants and Dwarves.
Honestly, I liked Ragnorok just because I was tired of all the serious stuff. Like, the Avengers fell apart, Thanos is coming, it was nice to have a goofy movie before everything went bad. But in hindsight, yeah. Turning Thor into a joke was bad for the character and set up the disaster that was Love and Thunder.
Thank you so much for saying this. I’ve been feeling the exact same way for years now! I feel like Taika Waititi just took the character of Thor, killed him and replaced him with a terrible replica. He basically made a clone of Star Lord, but with a Thor skin. I hated how in that movie, Thor’s friends get brutally murdered by Hela but yet he has no intense reaction to their deaths whatsoever. That was my first red flag. The director just treated it all like a joke and Love and Thunder just made it worse.
Yeah, I've been disappointed by how Thor and Loki have been consistently made less serious. I was prepared for Ragnarok because my family had seen it before me and kept saying how hilarious it was, so I was able to mostly enjoy it by adjusting my expectations. But the one thing I still hated was the music choice for when Thor rose up at the end. If that one thing had been changed from "badass rock song" to "powerful, moving, soundtrack" I think it could've saved Ragnarok for me personally. Just to have at least the most important part of the film, the culmination of Thor's entire character arc, be taken seriously would've been enough. But no, we'd rather feel badass than like a phoenix from the ashes with all the pain of the fire that burned us coursing though our veins. Fine. Be that way. I hate it.
Nic Pizzolatto called this "abusing the audience". He was talking about that same exact problem when explaining why True Detective became such a hit. Because both he and his show respected the audience and treated it seriously. It was earnest, and earnestness is the kryptonite for cynics.
@@LynetteTheMadScientist It had a nihilistic main character, however the show was not inherently nihilistic, as Cohle is a vastly changed character by the end of the show. I'd rewatch it if that was the main takeaway you got got from it on first watch if I were you.
@@KingJori_True, rust by the end of the season 1 was a changed man. He becomes optimistic and started believing in higher power none of which he was or believe in the show before that point.
I watched fellowship with my wife recently. She had never seen it before and was entranced into its world, story and characters. Everything about it seemed genuine and real in its presentation. She too was stuck in that rut of watching "modern" movies.
I think the other side of the coin is when modern storytelling isn’t hinging on irony, it replaces sincerity with repugnant didacticism. Moralistic, self-righteous characters who gleefully slap around and kill antagonists for daring to disagree with their worldview are neither heroic nor compelling. Thus as a culture we have become brutalized by an endless barrage of amoral character arcs and one-dimensional villainy…. Or in other words, what you said, nihilism. This is a great video. I studied screenwriting, never broke into the industry, but always loved storytelling and you put into words here and the heart of an issue that has been bothering me since 2005. So great job lol
I've said this before, ever since Shrek, people seem terrified to be honest with their emotions, they hide everything behind irony or humor, never daring to show their true feelings. It just makes everything so insincere and shallow.
which is insane because shrek has always tugged so strongly at my heartstrings and always communicated such heart-filled messages like how much value a person inherently has despite social opinion, and how finding your tribe can help you love yourself authentically, and that authentic self love attracts your best life. it really boils down to execs missing the points of good ironic media, i think. they saw the beginning of the movie, went "clearly the ironic tone is killing" and they regurgitate it without bothering to see the earnestness under the surface ):
@colorblockpoprocks6973 I'm not knocking Shrek, I love the movie as much as you do. Shrek probably wasn't the first movie like that, but it was certainly the first movie I remember that was incredibly cynical. The whole "subverting tropes" seemed to have started with that movie and that cynicism seemed to have spread rapidly through kids movies before spreading out to regular movies too. You couldn't have a regular princess that needed saving anymore, there had to be some twist on the story. You couldn't have someone go on an adventure anymore, there had to be some winking at the camera at all times. Like I said, it probably didn't start with Shrek but Shrek certainly popularized the attitude, and it caught on like wildfire. I can't remember the last sincere movie I watched. Everything is so insincere now, so afraid of showing any honest emotion. It just all seems so hollow.
I think it has less to do with Shrek and more to do with online culture (which was going mainstream around the time Shrek came out). Satires like Shrek had existed for decades, but what hadn’t was the internet. We didn’t used to be able to connect with other fans daily, or watch comedic criticisms on youtube, or be able to tag celebrities directly on social media. There was a big barrier between the people who made media and the people who consumed it, so meta commentary, fan service, and winks to the audience were much rarer. The people making movies now have grown up online, and they bring that cynical, nihilistic meme culture with them.
@@solarydaysmaybe so, but boomers are incredibly thin skinned emotional people. The most economically lucky people to ever live on earth and still filled with grievances against everyone else
Thor Ragnarok was directed by Taika Waititi. Taika had always been cynical and postmodern, but he was grounded by mostly telling stories with serious undertones drawing largely from his own experiences as a smalltown Maori boy. When he got his shot in the big leagues he decided to leave that behind and double-down on all cynicism all the time which isn't very clever or interesting.
The ending made me smile genuinely, because I WAS expecting a joke...you proved your point that we've all been conditioned to be uncomfortable with sincerity. Great video.
In addition to some films mentioned in the comments and in your video: *RRR*. An absolute masterpiece and breath of fresh air against this trend. With all its over the top action, impossibly skilled superhero-tier characters in a world with no supernatural elements, special effects where the laws of nature don't apply - and the entire time, the movie just leans into it fully, and takes itself and the story 100% seriously. Which makes the sincere, serious moments of the film feel completely in place and belieavable. Not once is all those impossible elements played for laughs, or the audience made fun of for caring about the story and characters. The only humor there is, is actual classic humor between the characters - the guy being nervous and awkward with girls, the imperial british failing spectacularly at dancing compared to the main characters, language barriers, etc. Not what I expected after the last few years' insincerity seen especially in action movies.
Same, I don't even watch modern movies and yet it still got me- made me realize how much the old MCU has damaged my brain even when I am fully aware of the humor being cheap
One way I have phrased this problem in the past is: “Why would I take this movie serious, if the movie itself refuses to. The characters take every opportunity to tell me it is no big deal”
Very good. I teach a high school cinema studies class and it never really dawned on me how much MCU humor had warped their minds and expectations. This put a new perspective on a few things.
@@developingtank have you ever considered watching the works of Phil Lord & Chris Miller, Edgar Wright, Sam Mendes, Lana & Lilly Wachowski, Park Chan-wook, Bong Joon-ho, and the Coen brothers instead of restricting yourself to multi-million dollar superhero movies?
It's all mainstream entertainment these days. There's more content than one could have dreamed of having access to even 20 years ago, yet it has all the depth of a half-empty paddling pool. It sounds hipster-y, but the only places you get actual quality in any medium these days is from small studios, independent artists, people who don't owe their souls to corporations.
Top Gun: Maverick and Godzilla Minus One. A couple big films (even if one isn't Hollywood) of the past few years which come to mind as being very well-received and getting excellent word-of-mouth praise, and I've always felt a HUGE part of this (among their other qualities) is exactly this sort of sincerity and taking themselves seriously. They don't undercut serious emotional moments with humour, and in Maverick I can think of a few times they do the opposite, undercutting _humour_ with _being_ _serious._ It's something that I think a lot of people are aware of on some unconscious level, even if they don't know how to put it into words, but people WANT to let themselves be emotionally invested in the characters, the story, the world, that's... kind of the whole purpose of fiction, really.
@@vileink4733 not as much as you think, when people discuss them online, they talk about how genuine they feel, how sincere the films are. . Like the film, R.R.R. people genuinely love the bromance aspect, they point out that the actors play their roles straight without cynicism. . I recommend Patrick H. Willems video on R.R.R.
@@vileink4733 Some of them are. Others are appreciated for their sincerity. They're often jokingly called live action anime and I think there's more to the comparison than how over the top they are.
I think modern movies are both trying to be movies and are afraid of being movies at the same time. Like, they try to be all like "that's not realistic or practical" but also try to not be serious or have that kinda heart.... Like, they are trying to be too meta and not take the story seriously, but also tie down the story to be too realistic at the same time...
@@TheDeathmail The films of Edgar Wright, Sam Mendes, David Fincher, The Coen brothers, the Wachowski sisters, Park Chan-wook, Hideaki Anno, Bong Joon-ho, and Phil Lord & Chris Miller say otherwise. Some of the greatest filmmakers of all time.
Something I love about anime and manga is that everything about it, the vision, the world building, the characters, and storytelling, more often than not seems so un-compromising.
There are some, but i feel like most anime lately is as bad as it gets with meta humor, tropes and working on audience expectations. Certainly doesn't feel very sincere when characters are there to fill otaku checkboxes like the obligatory yandere
@@CptnYarrow I think anime definitely became popular because of it's sincerity--just look at the widely loved melodrama of shounen--unfortunately now anime is suffering from the same issue too. Before it was just throwing out completely generic content shamelessly, enthusiastically following the same structure with the same tropes proudly but with a slight thematic twist. Now, it's that, but with a level of meta irony. Hell, the Japanese even literally use the word _meta_ for it. In our era of global hyper-consumption, finding even average fiction/entertainment is becoming an active participation treasure hunt.
@@CptnYarrowI don’t think so anime always had that kind of unapologetic shitty humor it just didn’t surface that much but the core mainstream shonen animes still take themselves very much seriously
Godzilla Minus One is another recent example of earnest storytelling done right, earning the love of the audience as a result. Even a “monster movie” can be so sincere that it makes everyone in the theater weep. I cried both times I watched it.
Absolutely! I was hoping to see it mentioned in here. First movie I've seen in theatres four times (also, three times). It has a ton of amazing points in its favour, but the honesty and sincerity are absolutely a huge part of why it's gotten such fantastic and largely word-of-mouth praise. People WANT characters, stories, and worlds that they can love and care about, even if they don't quite consciously realize that's what they've been missing.
Meme culture plays a big part in this too, as sincere movies provide countless memes at the expense of the movie. An example I keep on thinking of is "Whats in the box?" from Seven. Taken out of context, Brad Pitt's reaction seems over-the-top, but within the movie it is an incredibly moving, dramatic scene.
Se7en is an inherently insincere movie because of how serious it takes itself, honestly. Twin Peaks: The Return spoofing it with cherry pie in a box I think seals it. Because Twin Peaks is intensely serious and personal, and not in an exploitative way that Se7en is. Se7en doesn't even name it's city, I don't think you can call a movie serious in the good way if it could plausibly take place in Gotham City for all we know, that makes in very insincere.
Weird you didn’t mention “Everything Everywhere All At Once”. That’s the only movie to truly embrace irony with stuff like raccacuoi, and still have me in tears by the end with its genuine sincerity
I took the movie as an argument *against* the kind of meta irony this video is talking about. The villain uses the meta irony as a defense mechanism to mask her real pain. She's saying "the world is random and meaningless," but she wants to be wrong about that. That's especially evident in rock scene.
That's why to this day one of my favorite movies is Speed Racer, as fucking insane as that movie is, the pure deep sincerity, the way the movie hands you its heart in that final race. I was 8 when I watched it and it was the first time a movie made me cry.
I think the reason why the Loki/ Hulk scene works is not just because it's subverts expectations, but it's also realistic in the world that we are watching on the screen. The Hulk doesn't wait to hear the monologue he just gets right into pounding Loki. It would be more unrealistic if the Hulk just sat there listening to his monologue, which is a usual Trope in superhero movies where the hero hears the villains monologue. However, in that scene reality subverts the expectations of the audience and that's why we laugh because it also makes sense. Anyhow thats my two cents on it. Love your video!🎉
Yeah, except, Loki is supposed to be smart and cunning, and he would obviously know that Hulk isn't to be reasoned with. At the very least, he'd have a projection of himself make threats to the Hulk just in case. Again, that's the MCU formula: sacrificing character consistency for cheap laughs.
@@antona.1327Loki was also full of ego and possibly going insane at the time due to excessive use of the mind stone. He probably really believed he could make the Hulk submit by bragging about his good hood.
0:48 Yes, we have seen this before. No, not a villain monologue: a villain monologue being interrupted by the hero showing that a hero doesn't listen to speeches, they act. Specifically, this is just a repetition of the scene in The Incredibles when Syndrome runs his mouth and Mr. Incredible tries to kill him for it.
Not sure Loki getting trashed by Hulk is an example of self-aware humour. At the very least, it's a mix of both self-aware and sincere humour. Loki is establishled as having delusions of grandeur, and Hulk is established as a physican match for Thor, who is in turn established to be stronger than Loki, but Hulk lacks Thor's and Loki's (and Tony's TBF) fondness of theatrics, because it's barely capable of anything else other than rampaging. So the scene played out the only way it possibly could, even if it subverted the evil monologe trope in the process.
Exactly the joke works because it's still true to the characters. The joke works cause it's a little man who thinks he's tough being embarrassed. It's satisfying and means something to the story and it's themes more than just haha funny. It's the play that ends loki as a threat.
It's a more general problem where studio people see something work once and then just thoughtlessly copy it (for a more specific example, look at family connections in Star Wars). That's not a new problem, but I think it's especially bad with this one because the movies are telling you not to care.
Sure is. Loki was a serious character in Branagh's Thor, who had absolutely nothing remotely funny about his character. Then comes in Whedon and thinks it'd be cool to take MCU's titular villain and make him the most pathetic and irrelevant clown imaginable. Granted, in retrospect, compared to what happened with Loki in 2017 onward, that scene isn't as bad, but it's still garbage and it kills any consequences or sense of danger the character have brought.
@@omalleycaboose5937 Loki was a tragic character in the hands of Branagh (the only person in the entire MCU who got Loki right). Why the F does Loki need to be the butt of jokes suddenly and why his threat needs to stop? Imagine if in The Dark Knight the last we saw of the Joker wasn't him laughing like a madman, but him telling the SWAT team that's approaching him ''Hey, guys, wanna hang out? Get it? Hahaha, hahaha... Yeah, sorry, I'm kind of getting dizzy over here from all this height. It's hard to make good jokes when hang on a rope on a skyscraper.''
In the Avengers film, Loki is also meant to be a despicable arrogant villain, so seeing him beaten by the Hulk was a moment of catharsis and proof that for all his bragging, Loki is basically a pathetic bully. The scene is funny sure, but it has the purpose of making the audience cheer when the villain gets their desserts.
I also think the main issue with this irony problem is that there's nothing ELSE but meta humor and subversion, to the point that it has become, by itself, a cliché. Like you said, it worked in Avengers because it was unexpected, but I also think that it was complimentary rather than the point of the movie unlike Thor: Ragnarok, and even then, that movie worked because it came after a string of more serious movies. Look at what happened with Thor 4 and how everyone seems to hate it--the shiny new gimmick stopped working due to overuse. I've said this before and I'll say it again, but it also feels like the writers are too scared to show any vulnerability out of fear that their work will be made fun of, so what you get are empty husks pantomiming humanity. Who cares if someone makes fun of your art? People parody LOTR often. Does that detract from its quality? Yeah, exactly. It doesn't. Let them laugh. As someone who has always enjoyed satire and parody, these pale imitations fail the moment they have nothing to say, the moment they use the label as a crutch rather than an element to get their point across. They have no point. They're nothing. Conversely, the most acclaimed comedies out there tend to have a 'heart' from which their jokes get meaning and allow the audience to get attached. It's okay to feel. It's great to feel, in fact.
The problem isn't with our entire culture, there are still plenty of sincere and earnest people out there. The problem is with the particular sort of people who have taken up most of the jobs in creative media over the past decades. The industry is full of cynical nihilists and overgrown children. They were pipelined straight into the job from their creative writing majors in expensive colleges, and their parents were probably already in the industry. They are exclusively career-oriented, have never been outside their bubble to see the real world, and their own inner lives are plastic and shallow. They hide their lack of depth and life experience by covering up with sneers and snide quips. The creative caste has become weak, lazy, and out of touch, and needs replacing. With exceptions, of course.
@eyespy3001 it's hilarious how you think the Drinker is alone in his assessment and brainwashing everyone, much like the trashbags you're probably subscribed to. Projection much? Lol
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hey everyone! I made a video reacting to some of your comments: th-cam.com/video/Nn1P_OQHUVU/w-d-xo.html
@@thecozykinoshow more disrespect towards lord & miller 🤬🤬🤬
@@ayamutakino what?
Ooh, jumping on that right away! TH-cam is FAR and away my favorite social media because it sparks the best conversations, debates, and good-faith criticisms.
🎉😅❤😊❤❤@@ayamutakino
What Hollywood calls "ironic humor" is akin to the maturity of a highschool student confessing love to his crush, and then immediately saying "I'm joking. You took it serious, didn't you?" because they fear the rejection.
Yeah perfect example it's like director don't have believe in their ability that they can create serious moment and attract audience towards it so they just take easy way out by repeating same cringe humor
Damn, I would be lying if I'd say that didn't strike a chord with me, the industry itself probably has people that are insecure of their quality and so use this to help soften the blow.
@@yash124 Frankly speaking, I actually think emotional immaturity has become much more common and accepted, and the writers display theirs in their films.
People live pampered lives and don't have to 'grow up', and therefore don't learn how to handle their emotions.
You're spot on
yeah spot on - def the reason irony and cynicism have taken hold in modern media is because its taking fewer risks. have shallow characters or cringy dialogue? who cares, its just a joke anyway right?
Ofc playing a story straight you always run into danger of making a fool out of yourself. Its very easy to make dialogue or pacing feel immature or cringe - but honestly Id take 5 failed movies that give a shit about their stories over this cynical, cowardly storytelling we have right now
Been saying this for years - the reason LOTR was such a success and will have such staying power is because it actually took itself seriously
I've been on a re-watching frenzy with them the last few years and that is precisely the conclusion I came to with why they are so good. And they chose to invest time and money into making them the right way
Like LOTR, I’ve been loving the new Dune movies. They care about the subject matter and take themself seriously. Can’t wait to see what they do with the 3rd one
@@Joe-kg2dv yeah. Lotr has super lovable characters and Stilgar prob came the closest in dune, but lotr still had more emotion (and better soundtrack) going into it. But I DO love how much more genuine dune feels than a lot of Hollywood atm
I wouldn't say that they took themselves seriously. I think the movies have the same tone as the books. Where everything is presented in a matter-of-fact manner. It isn't like "HOLY SH*T we got little people living in tiny houses and dragons and dwarves and sh*t. This is f*cking WILD!!" They were like "yeah there's a thousand year old evil entity living in this cave. No biggie."
@@bene233 I entirely disagree. They absolutely took themselves seriously.
When everything is ironic, nothing is
That's pretty much how I feel about the Deadpool and wolverine movie. Like I know it's hard not to be invested in all the different comic book movie lore and whatnot at this point cuz there's been so many so it's kind of impossible not to identify with some of the stories. But Deadpool 3 as a movie is so meaningless without everything that came before it. Is that a bad thing? I don't know but it also has made feel very mixed feelings about it.
Now that's ironic
@@ronnope3988I give Deadpool a pass because breaking the forth wall and being ironic about everything the problem is that it really only works for Deadpool and they really should stop trying to be ironic and funny in every other super heroe movie
@@shaneriggs6678Logan and Ang Lee’s Hulk are exceptions.
You sly dog!
Guillermo del Toro is one of the filmmakers who understands this.
He's talked about it in interviews, and when you watch his work you can see it.
As over-the-top ridiculous as something like Pacific Rim is, he's playing it absolutely straight and the audience is invested for it.
I read an article the other day about his vision for the Hobbit... It actually sounds pretty sick, sad we never got it because the studio wanted its big action sequence
I still like that movie in 2024
To this day, Pacific Rim is a film that is still fun to return to because the world is taken serious
@@WhyIsGhostInTheArenaagreed, it's so epic.
I wish he stayed on for Pacific Rim 2, we could've had something really good but instead got...whatever we have now
Some of the few “comic relief” moments hit so much better in LOTR because they’re so subtle and rare. When Gimli tells Aragorn “toss me..” and explains “I cannot jump the distance you’ll have to toss me!!”, then “eh.. don’t tell the elf?”. Aragorn simply replies sincerely “not a word”.
Yes, and most importantly they're the kind of jokes that real people might plausibly share in moments of tension. People do make jokes irl, but it's not all the time.
SPOILERS
Theres a scene in Return of the King where Pippin is putting on his uniform after pledging his service to Gondor, and he jokingly asks "its just ceremonial right? they dont actually expect me to fight?" and gandalf/faramir (dont remember who) says "well you signed up for it" and its little bits like that throughout the movies that work well without being overly meta, like yeah sure, a midget isnt gonna be able to fight like a full-grown warrior, but he did pledge his service to Denethor and thats a solemn vow taken seriously within this world,
@@goleogthais Did you really put a spoiler warning for Return of the King, a 21 year old movie? You are a very kind person.
@@goleogthais Thank you for the warning. Here’s a bowl of Eowyn’s soup: 🥣
This joke is also built upon the former film when they escaped Moria. This is a example of "planting seeds". Give yourself stuff to build on for later without it being a major plot point so to speak. Think of whatever goes on the story as a part of a big toolbox that can be pulled out for later.
Your experiences with "Lord of the Rings" sounds little like being surrounded with cynics your whole life and then having a sincere friendship with someone: you manage to forget how much you craved it without realizing.
. . .
Do you have a problem with something?
You need help?
@@millo7295 Now? Not, I used to have not so good experiences with people and then aquired sincere friend, so I know the feeling of forgetting how much someone could crave honesty and his thoughts about expecting cynic jokes in "Lord of the Rings" reminded me of being suprised that, in contrast to those people I had bad relationships, sincerity still exists and is much stronger than postmodernist irony.
Thanks for your concern!
This absolutely nails it. There's something really nasty and manipulative about getting someone to open up and then jabbing them once they're belly-up, both with storytelling and friendships. I'm a sincerely emotional person and it's a lesson I've had to learn time and time again in friendships, and it's sad when that's overtaken our storytellers, who should be the most sincere among us.
@@mariahanczewska8109there's a song by The Shins that this makes me think of...
"Oh what a contrast you were to the brutes in the halls...
My timid young fingers held a decent animal"
@@MaxToddUniverse
AMONG US
I'm sorry...
"When movies mock themselves, they are actually mocking the people who genuinely enjoy them."
BBC sherlock also did that
MCU
@@Maab134 They even dedicated a whole episode to it at one point. That is to say, more than 7 percent of the sherlock series is directly, inarguably, dedicated to informing you that you are stupid and/or crazy for caring about what is happening in the show.
@@GrohiikVahlokJul exactly, absolutely garbage show.
@@Maab134Oh man, I hated that series! The whole smugness and arrogance of Sherlock and by extension, the show's, really got on my nerves. It's like they took this beloved and genuinely enjoyable character and made a mockery of everything good about it, then threw it in our face. Wtf.
I got tired of Rick and Morty for how it kept giving you a story, then laughing you for caring about it while throwing it away, and I think you nailed what's going on with it and everything else.
Yeah, I took the show as being an attempt to comment on all the nihilism in art, like it would do everything in its power to convince you that it was ironic but then the true sincerity would be allowed to bleed through - the narrative embodied by Rick himself. Like it's not just a nihilistic story with tone-deaf sincere moments like Deadpool, but a sincere one buried under the nihilism and trying to break out. "The Vat of Acid" episode was so quintessential of its intentions, showing that the inherent absurdity of (the meta) irony was destroying everything that could've been good in the family's lives. Sadly it seems that the latest season lost the plot. And I feel more betrayed giving Rick and fricking Morty a chance with the reputation it had back in the day and making an 'ackchually you need 500 IQ' comment about it now because of that :/
Yeah Rick and Morty is where I drew the line on this crap. Hated that they essentially laughed at the fact I wanted them to tell a good story, which they had for a while
@@lurkingaround7410 I think Regular Show is quite a great example of sincerity in absurdity as they'd always go into the most absurd situations you can think of (I mean really, from just playing basketballs to there being an actual God of Basketball), and they treat these weirdness with the utmost sincerity. oh, now there's a God of Street Performing? cool. no questions asked. and in the midst of all the absurdities in the show, they managed to still deliver a very relatable and emotional story about friendship, love, family, etc. all treated, with great sincerity. Regular Show will continously be my favorite animated TV show.
Rick and Morty was the exact thing I was thinking too, and for all Rick's nihilism and uncaringness the best moments of the show had shined when Rick took the people and the relationships around him seriously, it's best episodes are where it had taken itself seriously in all its absurdity, the later seasons just become more and more riddled with meta jokes and Rick just backpedling on his supposed character developement
I think the last few seasons have been really good honestly. They may not have as clear of a plot line as some people want, but they're not embarrassed of having heartfelt moments anymore either.
I think this is the reason Dune part one and two have done so well and have become a breath of fresh air because they take their world seriously and don’t feel the need to reference how absurd the world can be sometimes. Hollywood should really learn from the sucess of more sincere movies and realize that’s what the audience wants.
So true. Can’t wait to see what Denis Villeneuve does with the 3rd Dune movie. Absolute amazing movies
Yes!!! Wow!! I think it is so incredible how the adaptation was simultaneously earnest in it's respect, and sometimes fear of the plot's stakes, and also didn't make the mistake of falling into older tropes by whitewashing the moral ambiguity and gray-ness of the characters. It felt wholly original in that way. A real modern myth. I expected no less from Denis, and honestly it has always been his curiosity about the complexity and gray-ness of power and relationships of, and in relation to his characters that has left an ever-churning impact in my mind. But he is far from sterile and cerebral-it's an emotional sincerity that has driven home any metaphysical questions he asks in his stories
Absolutely, when you was younger you would watch mostly any movie, just for the fun of it.. now that I’m 23 and living a sort of adult life with real life responsibilities, I don’t find that much time to just watch movies for the fun of it, I watch for the stories and characters cause I wanna relate to them and their earned triumphs!
I usually check what the people rate a movie now a days before watching it, merely because of time restraints and I don’t wanna waste my time watching something pointless. I hope with all of my heart that they make movies like they did before iPhones come to the world😭
I made a comment about this too. A lot of big blockbusters are embracing sincerity again. Dune as you said, but also Avatar, Maverick, and The Batman
But Deadpool and Wolverine was way more successful so your entire comment has no merit.
I felt a deep sadness when you described your experience with Lord of the Rings, where you expected it to all be treated as a joke because of years of conditioning.
Directors who tell you, "this is stupid, and you're stupid for liking it" should never be in charge of that project, they should be in therapy instead.
THIS!
Im super thankful the Hobbit films are mostly still of the same mentality of being sincere about their storytelling, even if Legolas sticks out like a sore thumb and the final film jumped the shark, its not really making fun of anyone.
Ever seen Postal?
Most audience like being treated as children though, thats why they do it.
@@AndersonMallony-EricCF Pretty sure some of the audience are also children wanting to be treated like theyre smart for enjoying meta and quirky humor
Irony is so over used not only in movies to keep the audience from feeling genuine emotion, but also in conversations where people don't want to be vulnerable by being genuine. It's hard to express that you're passionate about a topic/cause/belief without making a self-depricating joke about it, but I think we could all benefit from being a little more genuine.
We're all living in a post-South Park world where genuinely caring about something is seen as cringe and a weakness to be mocked.
Just yesterday, one of my friends who does live streaming chose the theme, "What are we grateful for?" It was sad and disappointing how many people in the comments couldn't, or wouldn't, say they were grateful for anything. They mocked him for asking the question, kept wanting to change the subject, and generally exhibited how frightened they were of expressing any pure feelings, lest they be mocked too. What's truly sad is, some of them have children.
@@georgiaurso6257 Try watching the works of Edgar Wright, Sam Mendes, David Fincher, Phil Lord & Chris Miller, Lana & Lilly Wachowski, Bong Joon-ho, Park Chan-wook, and Joel & Ethan Coen.
Quote from Red in OSP "Self Depricating humor is funny only to people who want to depricate you."
The internet did this. All of these problems, not just with movies, but in society today is the addiction. We are all addicted to it. Even writing this comment shows that I am addicted as well. Maybe it is time to pull the plug. We are all being turned into uninteresting, hive mind, robots. And then people wonder why sincerity has died. Any day now though reality is going to slap us in the face. It takes one order from Putin to start lobbing nukes at NATO or us. China and the USA could go to war at any minute. The middle east is at war again. Inflation has made just buying groceries difficult. But everyone sticks their head in the sand of social media just trying to make those millions before the world blows up.
This also affects people in real life. Someone will be venting about a very serious subject and then someone (sometimes including the venter) will just make a really bad joke because they think they just HAVE to be funny and ironic instead of just being genuine.
Yes there are some people that feel the need to make EVERYTHING a joke and it’s just so draining.
It's that "bro visited his friends" meme. No one is serious again.
@@George-ls9ce I've had that problem in my real life. I made a joke at everything, my brain was wired to say funny stuff. I even made myself stop making jokes for a week because that was my whole personality.
It came from a place of insecurity, making jokes does not force you to reveal yourself. Now, after therapy and growing up, I overshare and am overtly open. Some people don't like it, but it also inspires others to overshare and it's better to overshare than undershare, in my experience. (Funny how 'undershare' is highlighted as a typo)
Ryan Reynolds built his career being that person both in real life and on screen and I don’t understand the hype for Deadpool and Reynolds because to me it’s just cringey edgelord stuff and it’s dull.
Well shit. I've done that.
That monologuing joke in Incredibles works because it was set up earlier when Bob & Lucius were reminiscing in the car and listening to the police scanner.
It is an authentic part of that world as much as it is a meta joke but having the basis for Syndrome’s line be previously established also continues to inform on his character. He began as a super fan and has become cynical, so being self aware fits his characterization.
It also helps that while the line is amusing in it's genre-referencing it's not actually subverting the tone of the scene. It's not deflating any tension when he points out that he slipped into monologing like the trope goes, it's actually increasing it that he catches Mr. Incredible trying to manipulate him and catches him physically trying to escape, making him seem a competent threat. A post 2010s movie would have Bob actually successfully sneak away and it just be played for humor when Syndrome notices he fell into a villain trope.
@@CuteKiller313 Yup. Also this scene shows how egomaniac Syndrome is, with just a little tease got him monologuing and he let his guard down, showing the audience the flaw of his character. It foreshadows how he is going to lose, that he will get too cocky and it would blow up in his face. That scene works on many different level.
It's still the same thing that Loki does in Avengers. There's nothing wrong with that kind of meta-reference, whether explicit like in Incredibles, or implicit like in Avengers. If it's done well, it works. I feel like making a sweeping judgement against a movie trope because it's often done badly is kind of a criticism cop-out. It's like saying superhero movies are all garbage because you didn't like the last three you saw.
i love the incredibles; im just kinda lost at the connection between the police scanner scene and the monologuing scene. was there some line in the scanner scene that i didnt catch that references the future monologuing?
Frozone is telling a story about how he is the clutches of a villain and he escapes because the villain starts monologuing
@colorblockpoprocks6973
I think a key difference between sincere movies with funny scenes (I.e. pirates of the Caribbean, Indiana Jones) is that the humor is not about the scene/story but rather within in it. They’ll show something humorous in the world they are showing rather that putting the spotlight on the inherent absurdity of the situation.
Like when Indie grabs the hat under the closing door, or the swordsman showing off and Indie just shoots him....its a cherry on top that adds to the scene but doesn't dominate or take away from the plot at all
Exactly, and it's all in keeping with his character, too, so it totally fits!
They aren't doing an ironic lampshade about action movie fight scenes, Indy's just getting tired and has more important things to do than grandstand with some idiot show-off who brought a sword to a gun fight
@@helenl3193 Funny thing is, that scene wasn't planned that way--Harrison Ford really was too tired for filming it as it was written, with Indy having a sword as well, because he was dealing with a wicked case of food poisoning. I think it works because it really was a serious situation for Harrison and he knew how to make it a sincere scenario for his character.
agreed. like Jack Sparrow does all this ridiculous stuff, but the movies are still serious
the characters just roll their eyes or comment about how ridiculous it was
@@tgbluewolf Wasn't Indy supposed to just disarm the guy with some fancy whip tricks?
Aragorn might be the best depicted hero in all of fiction. He was not a superhero, except for exceptional long life. He was compassionate to the max, competent to the max, honorable to the max, brave to the max, I could go on…
Aragorn's sincerity is the most admirable thing about him, and that's saying a lot considering all his other wondrous traits you started eluding to - compassion, courage, strength etc. He is truly an epic hero, so virtuous.
I literally always say I want to marry a LOTR man😂😂 So full of love, sincerity, honour, good humour and respect. Faramir in the books is also just such an amazing character ❤❤❤
@@erinwantenaar7206i would pick Faramir too! 😊 Film was also good ❤️
Then go on.
Tell me how a non super hero can toss a dwarf during battle
To add to your point, think of the scene in Puss in Boots: The Last Wish, when Puss is having a panic attack, and Perrito finds him there. Every single review for the film I’ve seen expresses gratitude that they didn’t use that scene for a cheap joke, and instead played it completely straight and honest. Perrito doesn’t make any quips or anything like that. The scene is silent as he lays his head down on Puss’ stomach and lets Puss catch his breath. Irony and meta humor is fine, but don’t let it come at the expense of the emotional core of your story. Because it’s those moments of pure honesty and emotional conveyance that sticks with people, long after the film released. Good stuff!
That scene is strong especially when "Last Wish" still uses meta jokes regarding fairytales. Kinda ironic, not in the story itself, but how storytellers took the wrong cues from the first "Shrek" film. It used ironic humor, but it was still sincere about sending a moral about how you should not judge people by how they look. I think "Chicken Little" (2005) was first victim of this.
Another reason why The Incredibles “monologuing” joke works is because it’s in character for Syndrome. He’s a nerd, and his primary frame of reference is comics and movies.
Syndrome is a massive hero fanboy, to the point that his whole start of darkness is not getting to be a sidekick like he wanted. Of course he's going to have all of the hero/villain interaction bits down.
Remember that is the second time this joke is used in that movie. The first is frozone talking about the olds and being bested by some villain until said villain started monologue. It shows how all the superheroes are familiar with this MO and it's just part of the job, so when syndrome does it, me incredible takes advantage of the situation because he is familiar with it. I think it makes it a little meta at least.
The Incredibles is fantastic because it's both a deconstruction of the superhero genre while also being a MASSIVE love letter to the Golden Age of Comics. It's therefore sincere despite being self-aware because it's grounded by being a family drama as well as a superhero action film. Brad Bird is a fantastic enough filmmaker to be able to deftly blend genres like this, whereas most people in Hollywood are nepotistic DEI hires forced to make entertainment by committee nowadays.
Yes, exactly like Abed in Community.
I haven’t seen it mentioned yet but the monologue joke is a Chekhov’s Gun. They set it up by having Frozone and Incredible laugh about the played out cliche in the car; always being the downfall of the villain. We see Mr. Incredible try to exploit this weakness at the midpoint of the movie, and finally we see it payoff, while Syndrome Monolgoue’s about “getting his revenge,” he has a car thrown at him. It was perfectly executed.
One thing I really hate is how at the end of every trailer nowadays, theres always some joke to end the trailer, and its not even a good joke.
THIS! I hate the random quips at the end of almost every trailer. They’ll build the trailer and the music to an epic conclusion, title drop, then drop some corny self aware joke that not a single person finds funny besides those fake reactor channels.
right. and they expect everyone in the theater to laugh but instead everyone just gets second hand embarrassment
ugh... the D&D movie trailer reeks of this so bad.
@@thedarkcloakartist The D&D movie is actually funny though, and it knows when to be serious. It's just that D&D itself is pretty humorous even in the tabletop. ESPECIALLY in the tabletop, the _weirdest_ shit can happen there.
I wish they don't really follow the movie trailer template sometimes, it just makes them all look the exact same ones with nothing interesting or unique going on. It's okay not to follow the template, like what Longlegs is doing with their trailers. Makes it more engaging and actually interests me to watch it.
This is one of the reasons why Fury Road is so different. They have crazy shit like flamethrower guitar but everyone in the movie take it seriously.
I think that makes for better humor than irony: instead of having the characters in the movie acknowledge how absurd the events are, just have absurd events and have the characters take it seriously. Leave it up to the audience to notice how absurd the events are. They're adults, they don't need the movie explaining it's jokes to you.
@@vinsplayer2634 that's exactly why it works so well. When the characters acknowledge the absurdity, it makes the characters feel like actors themselves, like they're faking, which is terrible for a character personality if it doesn't fit in the overall story.
@@MChief123 And it's also annoying, it feels like the show-makers think we're as stupid as a 3-year old and can't figure out when the stuff happening in the movie isn't ordinary.
Perfectly put. I remember hearing characters refer to crazy concepts like "the Bullet Farm", but doing so with complete earnestness, and it enriches the world so much. Gets my mind racing imagining what this place is like and what role it serves in the post-apocalyptic world the characters inhabit. So much intrigue from such a throwaway line, and all because the characters take the world they're in seriously.
God I loved Fury Road. What a world, what a trip.
This is why I feel Dune worked so well and is a big part of why it's so popular. Those two movies are definitely ones that take themselves seriously. They're not trying to be ironic or comedic. The sincere moments remain sincere. The stakes remain high. The tension is never broken by a joke or a nod to the audience.
Almost. Dune part 1 was completely solid. Dune part 2 turned Stilgar bafoon that was the butt of a joke almost every seen he's in. Not at all how he was in the books or previous adaptations. Also that scene of Paul getting slapped when he comes out of the spice trance and the sound that became a meme blasts while he's dead eyeing the camera, is literally cancer.
Sorry for the rant, Dune is very special to me and I have some very strong opinions about Dune 2.
@@eddiedead2702 I mean that's fair - my partner is also a huge Dune fan and wasn't sure how to feel about Part II. All I can give is my opinion as someone who wasn't familiar with the source material but who does come from a fundamentalist religious background.
I found both films great, but Part II I found particularly moving. I understand some significant changes were made (much the same with LOTR), but Stilgar to me didn't come across as a buffoon, but as a deeply religious leader. Sure there were some funny moments from him, but never in a way that felt like ironic or trying to cheapen the moment.
As someone who grew up in a fundamentalist religious enviornment, I can't overstate how poignant Part II was as a film that examines religious zeal as a force for Tragedy.
@@FireflyFanatic3 Dune is popular because Villeneuve is an artist who believes in the power of visual storytelling and atmosphere. And we barely get any Villeneuves taking over blockbuster cinema.
@@eddiedead2702 I would argue that that doesn't sacrifice the sincerity of Dune in the same way that Marvel does. There are jokes in Dune the same way there are jokes in life. The fremen are not humourless people just because their lives are hard. Does it make Stilgar a bit silly early on? Yes. But in the end of the movie, especially during Paul's speech to the elders, you can see the very serious side of his faith in Paul. Both how profound and deeply held it is, and how utterly terrifying that is.
@vowgallant4049 I get that, and that's why it's tolerable in comparison. The issue I have with it is how much it deviates from the source material and changes the perception of the character. That is not Stilgar. The Fremen don't need to be portrayed as a humorless robotic society for an accurate portrayal of a singular character.
The Emperor's New Groove is a good example of a movie with tons of meta jokes that still makes us care about the characters and their relationships.
@@capitaopacoca8454 If that is the only example you can list, you haven’t watched enough movies.
I'd argue that it works in large part because Kuzco is so insincere and is the butt of the joke. The movie has a lot of meta jokes but the whole time it's also going, "okay but THIS is what your relationship with the world is like when you become completely ironic and self-absorbed"
@@rhi-y8dtrue, it's good to see Kuzco as the butt because it has a purpose. It teaches him some humility. To be a better person. The random humor is just icing on the cake. The rest of the movie still has a solid story.
Factual
"Hey, that's kinda like what he said to you when you got fired."
"I know. It's called a cruel irony. Like my dependance on you."
It’s all quite nihilistic, because if everything is a joke, then life itself is a joke, there’s no stakes, no peril, no beauty in self sacrifice
"Everything that exists deserves to perish."
-Mephistopheles
@@redshirt5126
Ich bin der Geist der stets verneint!
Und das mit Recht; denn alles was entsteht
Ist werth daß es zu Grunde geht;
Drum besser wär’s daß nichts entstünde.
So ist denn alles was ihr Sünde,
Zerstörung, kurz das Böse nennt,
Mein eigentliches Element.
If I told you that was the point of such writings were quite literally to spread that point of view upon the masses, for profit, would you believe me?
@@panamajack5972 yeah there’s a wilful degrading of morale present in the world, but there’s still inspiring stories as well, so I wouldn’t say it’s all controlled with that intent
There cannot be one without the other,
Wisdom excelleth folly as light excelleth darkness
This is literally what powers behind closed doors have been molding the west into for over 50 years.
Look into who made Hollywood. None of this is because money, that's a canard.
This is why TNG and Berman-era Trek succeeded. Classically trained actors like Patrick Stewart put on the space pajamas, took the clunky technobabble, and committed. Their characters never knew they were in a TV show.
So much this ⬆️
I mentioned The Twilight Zone (originals) but those are good picks.
Heh? Clunky technobabble?
Not to be rude, but Trek had some of the most well-written, least clunky technobabble in existence. You tune in to any random clip, and if you have a layman's understanding of tech, it mostly makes sense. Unlike other franchises, where the technobabble is either incoherent or contradictory, e.g. w your tank is "compensating for terrain flux"?!? Man, I hope the terrain isn't in flux, because we're doomed if you try to run a nice flat tank through terrain that's acting like a settling bedsheet.
@@aaronimp4966 Snark, comrade. Nobody reads Shakespeare without acknowledging how over the top ridiculous it is. YOU COMMIT.
At least I saw this kind of tone again for Star Trek Prodigy, despite its demographic. It very much felt like Voyager---because it IS Voyager Series 2.
The Spider-Verse movies proved that Sincerity and Irony can exist in the same story and can actually enhance each other, but Marvel hasn't been using that yet.
@@gaidencastro9706 Phil Lord & Christopher Miller are better filmmakers than Shawn freaking Levy.
I think the difference is that the self referential humor feels like it's coming from a place of _love_ rather than insecurity. Laughing with rather than at, yk?
It feels moreso like a love-letter to everything that makes spiderman what it is, than a jab at you for daring to enjoy it.
Which works perfectly to reflect the main arc of miles working out what exactly it means for _him_ to be spiderman. Hence, it enhances rather than detracting from the narrative!
@@justanothercomment Which exactly why Lord & Miller are better filmmakers than Shawn Levy, in addition to Levy not have one ounce of understanding of craft.
"im going to say the N word spiderman"
The overuse of subversion & flippancy makes writers look like they're afraid of being genuine, afeard of their work standing for what it is.
Subversion is easy. Crafting something so powerful it becomes the standard for several generations is a monumental task.
It's a shame too. Humans were made to participate in creation, but we often shy away from it, opting for subversion and destruction because it seems easier.
@@Pan_Z
They're giving the audience what they want - mindlessness. They simply don't have the attention span to watch anything they have to think about. No mysteries, no challenges or surprises. We get incompetent villains and Mary Sue heros who never lose.
From Bowfinger - "Its too cerebral. We're tryin to make a movie here, not film"
yeah a lot of people underestimate how hard it is to craft something thats even just decent especially on a big project like a movie. To be fair tho I dont think its completely the writers fault here. Maybe some are scared yes, but I think hollywood is just really enforcing this type of filmmaking because its more safe and profitable. But I also think some other filmmakers are so so set on making those monumental masterpieces that they forget making something just fundamentally good. Not everything needs to be subversive, genre defining etc. Just tell the damn stories you wanna tell
@@Myyoutube625 There are definite levels to what you said. Levels that go very deep and very ancient (if linear time was objectively real and not a perceptual construct).
@@justinw1765Man, where’d you get your Time Machine, I wanna see Babylon before its fall. Do agree with the deep and ancient sentiment, though.
Subverting tired tropes is now a tired trope.
The irony
Especially when they resort to "dropped a bridge on him" means of subverting expectations. When they defy established lore, character motivations and internal consistency for a cheap laugh or a failed attempt of an emotional gut punch.
I like to use the boxing trunks analogy. If 99 boxers wore pink trunks and you wore plain black trunks, you're gonna stand out. However if those 99 boxers copied you and started wearing black trunks, you would stand out if you wore pink trunks. Breaking the fourth wall was funny in 2012 because it was new, now it has become the norm. So to stand out today you need to be authentic.
Shits a fractal
They're only tired tropes when not done correctly.
The Avengers scene where Hulk throws Loki around also works because it’s consistent with Hulk’s character to do that.
These days they are taking essentially serious and sincere characters like Thor, have him do something cool or impressive like defeat a bunch of enemies, and then puncture his moment of triumph by having him slip on a banana peel or 💩 himself.
It’s also a suitable comeuppance for Loki himself, who has spent the whole movie taking himself VERY seriously, elevating his own ego and resentment to be more important than the survival of the Earth. When Hulk smashes him mid-monologue, it’s not just a gag - it’s a primadonna villain being not just defeated, but humiliated by one of the creatures he treated as beneath him.
Joss Whedon’s style has become synonymous lazy eye-rolling ‘well THAT just happened’ moments, but we should remember he made his bones ripping the absolute hearts out of his audience on television with some of the most emotionally impactful stories in the medium. I’d say that the first Avengers movie has a balance between sincerity and humour that, say, Quantumania doesn’t.
@@Poodlestroop I think when Whedon was cooking, the humor heightened the sincere emotion but cutting through the insincere emotions. Had Hulk stopped to listen to Loki's whole grandiose monologue, where would be the sincerity in that? Or the authenticity? It would have been just another scenery chewing bit of cliche.
I think the problem is that critics think they've figured out some new bad trend, when it always comes down to the same thing-- it's working or it's not. The reason Quantumania didn't work is that the jokes weren't good, not because it was trying to be funny. In the right hands, the same story, and the same approach, might have been brilliant. But critics can't just keep saying "it was undercooked," even though 99% of the time, that's the problem. The other problem, of course, is that films tend to imitate one another without understanding what it is they're trying to copy. So they copy the form of the joke, like the owlbear doing the Hulk smash routine, without the unique premise that made that routine a perfect payoff to that film. But that's what happens when you quote someone else's joke out of context instead of making one of your own. You only remind people how much funnier that other guy was.
That said, Most of Dungeous & Dragons was hilarious. I kinda feel like that owlbear bit was something some bullshit exec insisted on. Uncreative people always think putting something they've seen before into something new is a creative act.
And it worked in Ragnarok when Loki shot up and exclaimed, "THATS what it feels like!"
See how drastically they changed T'Challa from Civil War to Black Panther. He was serious, stoic, no-nonsense character in Civil War and once BP came around, he was just one of the quippy Marvel heroes. Like two different characters.
@@711ramen4 nothing about that horrid movie works, it character assassinates Thor and Loki, and it's the absolute worst offender of ''sincerity is for geeks; irony is for cool dudes like me, who have threesomes on the porch''. The first Thor movie clears that horrible third movie any day because it actually knows where to be serious and when to be fun. Ragnajoke doesn't know how to be either and instead reads like a derranged fanfic.
You know, i kinda want to make all these ironic film directors go back and watch The Princess Bride, which shows how you do both a deconstructive story that occasionally subverts expectations while still being sincere and telling a story you can fall in love with
And the jokes in that movie are an earnest attempt to be funny instead of smug meta jokes about how much better it is than its own genre
I think Hollywood, especially Marvel, went too far with it. I remember the scene when Asgard was completely destroyed in Thor Ragnarok and they were all just joking around. I was like: wtf, Asgard just got destroyed, how can that be funny?!
I always think back to Jeremy Jahns and his take on the Thor: Ragnarok.
"It's entertaining, but if you backed off on the comedy and let the gravity of the situation soak through, it would be even better."
Omg, Asgard just got totally wrecked mah dudes! LMAO, ROFL!
(Note: I am poking fun at this trend."
It was around the time Black Widow was coming out when I was just plain tired of this whole thing and easily skipped out on. My wife's friend was talking about how she was looking forward to see it, and asked why I wasn't when I saw so many other Marvel films.
"I'm tired of the villain being boring and forgettable. I'm tired of them having a serious moment, then immediately making a joke to break any tension. I'm tired of watching movies that know they are going to be leading into other movies, rather than a standalone adventure in the universe. Stories should have a beginning, middle, and ending. These movies don't end, they just go into the next one."
They never got any better, only worse. Spiderman was great the same way Deadpool was great: it was an ending to multiple stories for Andrew and Tobey like DP was for many Sony characters. ENDING. It felt satisfying to finish off and tie loose ends. It just unfortunately is also another movie, in a series that we're going to get, until the series is no longer profitable to produce instead of a satisfying conclusion.
First scene I thought of when I watched this video. That “joke” really left a sour taste in my mouth leaving the cinema. Like how many people just died, and we it’s okay to make a joke? Is that what our society is like now?
There is humor to defuse tension, and then there's not taking your own story handed down to you seriously. And it only got worse form there.
Taika is a buffoon. Sure, people had problems with the first Thor movie and Dark World, but the answer wasn't to make a comedy out of the acceptance of the throne and loss of home. The answer was most certainly not to have Thor bullying kids online for his schlub "friends" while neglecting his people.
Chronic irony feels like it punishes audiences for their suspension of disbelief. It also gives the sense that the film makers are insecure in what they’re making and desperate for you to like them. I like your comment on the occasional subversive joke. I think the occasional subversive joke helps add immersion, almost as if the film makers intend to say, “hey, we’re watching this with you,” rather than setting up a trap.
Counterpoint: Everything Phil Lord & Chris Miller and The Coen Brothers make.
Exactly!! It's like the film makers are laughing at the audience for caring!
@@TeaAndCroissants Again: Lord & Miller and the Coen brothers say otherwise
I'm also noticing a pattern that modern filmmakers are afraid of the reckoning or the confrontation. For example in Ahsoka, when it was revealed that Sabine had forsaken the universe to rescue Ezra, both Ezra and Ahsoka were surprisingly fine with it. It's like that writers were afraid to write a confrontation between the characters. Better writers would relish that kind of reckoning but Ahsoka's writers just threw it away. Imagine you were watching School of Rock and the writers skipped the scene where Jack Black was revealed to be a fake teacher.
@@ayamutakino I’m not familiar with ALL their work but they seem like exceptions since their work isn’t predictably subversive. Plus, Lord and Miller revel in not just comedic irony and but know to make good use of dramatic irony. They know when to be sincere.
You can't even play a tabletop RPG nowadays without everyone at the table trying to be a comedian and subvert the tropes. It's exhausting.
I know. I invited a coworker to campaign with us one time, and he was like that. I had confused his irony for sincerity, and he was never invited back. We actually ended the session early because he was not getting into the role play. Yes, it's cringe, but we do it around each other, so it's not cringe and actually fun. It was not a good time, and I almost forgot about it until now.
Can relate, had to stop watching GOT with someone who would sing the South Park parody "floppy wiener" during every intro, killed the vibe 100%
My players are serious as a heart attack. They are dedicated to the scene and are wonderful people. Even the most irrelevant one, my very brother, plays it straight.
I suppose it helps that my games tend to be pretty serious, too. Not a "no fun allowed" zone by any means. I just try to keep the goals and challenges grounded and the price of failure or even success tangible.
I never played, hoping to get the chance some day. But I think I'd inevitably make a generic good guy young hero that needs to learn true heroism and selflessness, simply cause I love this type of character. Like, the guy that thinks he's the main character but has to learn to just do his best for his friends
@dvmpld9103 I usually play a drunk/high genius cynical mage. Who's always difficult to work with but opens up by the middle and truly cares by the end. My evil runs, I'm 1000% selfish. I am the true definition of chaotic evil cause my character does what they want, when they want and don't adhere to the whims of an order or society. There's no wrong way to role play.
Dude, this was like a puzzle piece falling into place! It's like all along, I've felt as if something was amiss, but the feeling was almost subconscious. This is eye-opening. From this day on, I will forever judge movies based on this realization, and I have you to thank for that.
I don't do this often, but even if I never watch another of your videos, you earned my subscription.
At 7:00 the term you’re searching for is post-irony. It’s something David foster Wallace used to talk about in the 90’s. It’s irony for it’s own sake that doesn’t point anything out other than “hey this is a lame joke but I’m commenting on how lame it is to get ahead of your criticism.” It’s empty and afraid to say anything at all. Great vid btw.
@@ColinJoseph5154 notoriously empty and afraid film 22 jump street.
I know people like to criticize the FOX Xmen and Fantastic Four, but I've always really appreciated how different they feel from the MCU. Xmen feels incredibly mature, and Fantastic Four feels like a family adventure. Both have some humor but it never distracts from the story.
Fox xmen was great. I don't understand the criticism. The fantastic four movies weren't the best but were still enjoyable. Nevertheless I agree with your statement
@shadow-man8715 People criticized the Xmen movies for not being comic accurate, but I think the writing more than makes up for that. I say this as a comic book fan, I didn't need to see Wolverine running around in his yellow suit.
X-men days of future past is one of the best superhero movie ever even the top even when you compare it to the best of the MCU , I don’t think they have any film like DOFP
@@shadow-man8715 Let's not get ahead of ourselves, 2-3 of the movies were great, (X2, Days of Future Past and arguably the first one) a few others were alright with the rest being just as terrible as some of the MCU films today.
If you watch or listen to the decently made criticisms with an open mind, you'd understand why others don't like the majority of the films.
@Deadput I'd add the first Xmen movie, and Xmen First Class. Both feel like fantastic approaches because they throw us into the world, but you never feel lost because of how well they set the stage.
What I hate the most is the lack of effort in making anything stand on its own. I’m not impressed that they’ve looked at some numbers behind the scenes and know which billion dollar movie to reference
That's funny, I don't feel so different about thse video essays to be honest. They even build this absurd mythology that has, objectively, no actual research behind it. Just feelings. But someone else said it, so it is safe to perpetuate it.
@@dantan1249 That’s where Phil Lord & Chris Miller, Edgar Wright, Sam Mendes, and the Coen brothers come in to slap you in the face and show you the possibilities of cinema.
@@futurestorytellerYou've taken a wrong turn somewhere. This isn't r/iamverysmart
But no, if *everyone* is sensing that something is wrong with cinema right now, we're probably right.
@@Snowie7826 Everyone? So all 300+ million people in the country? And you know this information because you personally asked all of us?
Why am I responding this way? Because you put pointless emphasis on the word "everyone". God I hate the internet
@@Snowie7826 Saying that I'm treating this thread like iamverysmart, when I'm criticizing you is the biggest unintentional self own I've seen in a long time.
Ozzy Osbourne was once asked if he listened to his own music, he said of course -- I wouldn't make a song I wouldn't listen to. It feels like the people making the big movies nowadays are making movies they wouldn't watch.
Thank you for putting into words the feelings that have been broiling in me for years. It's like having that one friend who says "hey, you got something on your shirt", and when you look down, he flicks your nose -- and he ALWAYS does that. Every time one of these modern MCU movies has a "sincere" moment, I actually almost never invest into it, because I'm holding my breath for when someone burps or makes a stupid quip and deflates the whole scene.
This. I agree with you
This is why I love The Mummy from the 90s. Great blend of comedy and tragedy. Its a classic in my book.
"O'Connell! Hey, O'Connell! It Looks To Me Like I've Got All The Horses!"
"Hey, Benni! Looks To Me Like You're On The Wrong Side Of The River!"
Yep, that's how you do it. This is what both characters would actually have said, it perfectly fits their own egos.
"What's the plan?" "Kill the creature. Save the girl." Perfectly threading the needle: so blatant that you *know* it is a nudge and a wink, but never actually called out -- and it is, in fact, the plan (such as it is). The equivalent of really, really dry humor, and it requires both good writing and spot-on acting to really pull it off.
David Foster Wallace said it best: "All we seem to want to do is keep ridiculing the stuff. Postmodern irony and cynicism’s become an end in itself, a measure of hip sophistication and literary savvy. Few artists dare to try to talk about ways of working toward redeeming what’s wrong, because they’ll look sentimental and naive to all the weary ironists. Irony’s gone from liberating to enslaving. There’s some great essay somewhere that has a line about irony being the song of the prisoner who’s come to love his cage.”
@@vanlinhnguyen5966 David Foster Wallace has not seen the films of Edgar Wright, Sam Mendes, The Wachowski Sisters, The Coen Brothers, and Phil Lord & Chris Miller
@@ayamutakinoThese artists are sadly few and far between when the trendy movies dominate the culture.
@@dr.feelgoodmalusphillips2475 These artists matter more than some bullshit trends.
@ayamutakino They do matter but sadly, not a lot of the common public cares about them.
@@dr.feelgoodmalusphillips2475 Oh, to hell with the general public. And to hell with anyone who thinks they’re hacks.
A good example of this is during my screening of the first Joker in 2019, and that is a pretty serious movie, but the audience I was with were actually laughing a lot during the serious and sad scenes and I was like wtf guys
A few other notes on why the "monologuing joke" serves the film, rather than undercutting it:
1. There's set-up for it in the scene where Lucius and Bob are laughing about villains monologuing. Instead of taking us out of the world, it reinforces the world were in.
2. Bob's ploy fails. So often in these modern movies, these subversions are used against the characters themselves, as if the creators want to punish and mock the characters for falling into these tropes.
3. It actually aligns with the themes of the movie, instead of irony/subversion for its own sake. Syndrome's ego is his downfall. Its actually in line for his character to monologue about himself and his plans to Bob. It also sets up his downfall, when his impractical costume gets him killed.
Came to comments to reply this as well and you explained it better than I probably would have. 👍 Very much yes - Syndrome's reference to monologuing doesn't undercut the film because it's already been established in the film that there is a canon of superhero and villain tropes that all the characters (or at least just the supers) understand. It's an in-joke of their own in-universe culture.
As an indie filmmaker myself, there's a rule I follow when writing: laugh now, cry later. It's kinda corny but basically it's this: a character will use humor to deflect from discomfort or pain but will inevitably have to deal with the discomfort or pain. They'll have to face reality. That's the growth and arc of the character, right? What I've noticed with Marvel movies is that they do the opposite: something tragic will happen but then the moment is undercut with a joke. And what this signals to the audience is that none of this matters. It's just empty spectacle and hollow stakes that ultimately mean nothing. I think this is the one connective "message" in all of these movies: nihilism. Just like you said. None of it means anything other than making more money and staying on top of the pop culture heap.
And it's not even the humor so much as how it's used. Take Fight Club, for example. The Narrator in that movie has a very ironic and detached sense of humor but as the stakes in the movie rise he's forced to deal with his little creation and the snarky jokes aren't going to fix the problem he's created. It's not the snark or irony per se but how it's used in these movies: it's all there to let us know none of this matters. In these movies the heroes are always cracking jokes as they kill all the bad guys because there's no real danger or stakes. It's just like running on a treadmill to them--it's exercise. Iron Man died but RDJ is back. Wolverine died in Logan but he's back, etc, etc. Half the universe gets "snapped" out of existence but then it's back and nothing's really changed and none of it matters. Just consume Content™ and buy Funko pop, rinse, repeat.
I think that "laugh now, cry later" works is because that's how a lot of real people react, so the odd joke or laugh doesn't feel fake it feels genuine and can sometimes even feel painful
The "nihilism" you speak of in the MCU (that was tempered in Phase 1) doesn't really show itself in the Russo Bros-directed films & that's why I rank those films above the rest of them. Sure, there may be a joke undercutting some genuine pathos here or there, but Civil War & Infinity War are better about it than most. And on the DC side, The Batman doesn't do it at all. Those films are refreshing in the genre or sub-genre or whatever you want to consider superhero movies.
@@Batman88878 The Daredevil series was also serious, where the hero had to struggle many times with every (muscle) fiber of his, to win the fight. I barely can believe it was made by Netflix. He also had strong faith and moral code.
Couldn't have explained it better. 👍🏾
Well said 🎉
I have literally been talking about this exact thing regularly for years. And I'm a GenZer! I'm really grateful that I was raised on cinema like LOTR, and _not_ the goofy, comedic, ironic, "meta" media. As an adult now, I can't stand it, and yearn for the sincerity of the older films I grew up with. Honestly at this point 80% of the time I just watch older films. They have a _real_ sense of sincerity, nobility, heartfelt romance, deep and moving drama, beautifully portrayed archetypes, and I could go on and on and on. I know anyone who reads this comment gets it.
Why would I even bother spending my time on these modern popcorn flicks when there are SO many from the 20th century that I haven't seen??
Yeah, same here. Honestly, even just rewatching the Raimi Spiderman trilogy over and over again never gets boring to me. Or the FOX Xmen films. I appreciate how sincere it feels. How different it feels from the MCU. Feel more mature. And there are so many others.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp - Yes! The _only_ superhero films I will happily rewatch are the OG Iron Man movie, the first couple Cap movies, the FOX X-Men movies, and the Dark Knight trilogy. That's it.
Counterpoint: Phil Lord & Chris Miller, The Coen Brothers, Park Chan-wook, Sam Mendes, The Wachowski Sisters, Bong Joon-ho, and Edgar Wright are some of the greatest filmmakers who ever lived.
@@ayamutakino - Never heard of any of them, but I'll check them out!
Yeah, reject the soulless slop coming out and experience the proven, enduring classics instead.
You've outlined a major reason which I now realize why I've not been rewatching most films of the last 15 odd years or so. While I often want to rewatch anime, or older films and series. Because that sincerity in telling a story is there, where as most media now-a-days is just "look how postmodern I am! please hang out with me! I'm cool!" it just reeks of desperation.
That was exactly my thought and observation. The movies/shows that take themselves serious keep you invested even after you have finished them. It's become a rare treat but I'm glad to hear the trend is going into the opposite direction lately.
That does not really describe most of the movies of the last 15 years.
There was a debate around this in literature in the 90s that gave birth to the new sincerity movement. David Foster Wallace wrote about irony and cynicism destroying culture 35 years ago, when Seinfeld was seen as peak television. Now it's morphed into something far more disturbing: post-truth and insincere-sincerity.
Remember "The (As It Were) Seminal Importance of Terminator 2" from _Both Flesh..._ ? Man oh man, if Wallace could see what they've done since! All this spinning from what's post-post-postmodernism has me wondering if we'll ever take anything seriously again. But whadda I know? I'm just a sarcastic, cynical comment-writer, who's trying to break the fourth wall for thumb-ups, amirite? And you, Elfo, are prolly a bot.
My other comment was serious.
@@pocket83squared That's a weird D.F. Wallace essay to pick for this topic.
It's a cycle. Like everything else in the world. In 20 years we'll make fun of sincere tropes the same way again and the cycle restarts
@@dunningdunning4711 Why? That essay absolutely wrecks _Terminator 2_ for its excesses, but by today's standard of expectations, the film is like a cultural icon for what constitutes solid, serious movie storytelling.
"Cool! My own terminator." Was about as close to fourth-wall breaching as it got.
@@ryudhal Maybe not. That is, of course everything is cyclical, but the time period that the cycle takes to repeat might end up being much, much longer in this case. Why? Because cultural cynicism is like having a poisoned well; sometimes the actions of a generation will reverberate through several others, so it could take a very long time before kids can learn to relax and suspend their disbelief again.
The BEST comedy is SINCERE. Irony in comedy doesnt get you gar, if you want a perfect pie to the face scene, the actors MUST act like it was a serious event.
That's why Airplane will always rein supreme for me
Writers were just better back then. Most of my favorite movies are very dark and serious. But they also had lots of funny parts. Fight club, snatch, reservoir dogs, boondock saints, pulp fiction. It's definitely a lost art
I dunno. The Monty Python films were pretty postmodernist like the films of today (I’ve never watched the Meaning of Life though), but I think they’re much funnier.
Brittish humor
Do you even know what irony means, zoomer?
I've been ranting about this for years, but I'd never heard from someone who was raised(?) on this ironic, self-aware storytelling that seems to pervade most modern releases. I felt bad for you with your opening statements but ultimately you've given me some encouragement because you've indicated that there is perhaps an intrinsic appetite for sincere storytelling. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and I can't speak for any upcoming art, but at least you have a lot of older stuff to enjoy if you haven't already.
@@hopefulpellinore5490 Edgar Wright, Sam Mendes, David Fincher, The Coen Brothers, The Wachowski Sisters, and Phil Lord & Chris Miller are some of the greatest filmmakers of all time but k 🙄
@@ayamutakino "Sisters" 🤣
@@ayamutakino I think we're looking at different parts of media, and that's fine. I didn't claim that good films are no longer being made, but I wholeheartedly agree with the point that the original video is making: the baseline for "most" mainstream films/shows is this pervasive insincerity. You listed filmmakers who have nothing at all to do with the subject of this video. I'll assume goodwill and that you didn't intentionally misunderstand. I'm a big fan of most of the directors you listed btw.
@@hopefulpellinore5490 Actually, they do have something to do with the video. Lord & Miller, Coens, and Wright, especially, made their whole careers out of subversion and self-awareness. They’re also filmmaking masters who embraced the possibilities of cinema and had their own personal creative visions that they stuck to, no matter what movie they’re making.
If fucking Deadpool is the one you deem as the blueprint and not the films (The Lego Movie, No Country for Old Men, and Shaun of the Dead, for example) of any of these filmmakers, then you never watched enough movies.
@@ayamutakino I'm really not trying to argue with you about this, but I can see you're invested. I'll end by saying that it appears to me you are comparing Vivaldi to Katy Perry simply because they wrote some songs in the same key. Rian Johnson, Taika Waititi and their ilk are *nothing* compared to the directors you listed, but sure they may have been inspired by them. "Lesser sons of greater sires" and all that. The issue at hand is the current "house style" that is now the rule rather than the exception and how it affected the author of this video as a person who was seemingly raised on it (we're likely talking last ten years at most, not about filmmakers who have decades worth of "hits"). You're barking up the wrong tree. Peace!
The way you wrote the end of this video is masterful. Proving your point by example.
I think John Wick (especially the first one) is a good modern example of the power of sincerity in storytelling. The films take themselves very seriously despite being absurdly unrealistic at times. That seriousness, or rather the commitment to sincerely presenting the fictional world and characters, really helps maintain the emotionally driven story.
Of course, the sequels do have that one little meta joke about how all John Wick's actions were all about his puppy. But that doesn't detract at all from the first film.
that movie is a decade old now 😢
John Wick is a completely unlikable character, and I don't know how anybody can root for such a poorly written character.
@@KamPatterson69sh*t, you're right! Oh man, I feel old.
@@ericb.1384can't speak for the sequels, but for the first film I don't think it's about rooting for him.
I think the writers were aware that it's kind of hard to root for a character who is as bad, if not worse, than the "villains" of the story. Most people could probably only get behind the vengeance-feuled killing spree because of the emotional impact of John Wick's dog being killed. At least that is my take on the appeal of the story as a whole.
There are some moments from these movies that take me out from the story a bit, like when someone is trying to kill John and they stop mid fight to say how much they admire him (I'm pretty sure it has happened more than once), but overall I really appreciate how seriously everything is taken.
It was funny when Joss Whedon did it in the late 90s to early 2010s. But now it's just like a child that made their parents laugh once and they keep making the same joke expecting them to laugh every time.
Ohhh, brutally truthful.
welcome to trends. ironic comedy is already falling off and genuine movies are here. you just arent going to find it in mcu movies
@@Ja-eu6gj If Whedon is the guy you revere as the king of subversion, then you need to watch better movies
I watched Buffy and Angel. Joss knew how to take the shows seriously.
Couldn’t agree with you more. This is not just a movie problem btw, sincerity seems to be a rarity in every medium of entertainment these days. Although i don’t care much for the dune movies or villeneuve in general, i love how unapologetically epic his stuff is
Exactly. A very simple example would be how a lot of music nowadays have sad lyrics play on top of very upbeat and happy tracks. Like I get it's intentional, but it's not allowing me to feel the intended emotion.
I feel like nowadays people think it's "cool" and "hip" to be nihilistic and ironic and sarcastic.
It's not even just a media problem. It feels like people generally are terrified of experiencing any emotion beyond detached contempt, and can't not try to be the biggest comedian in the room at all times.
@axiss5840 you hit the nail on the head. I rarely am able to have a sincere conversation without someone butting in with their "jokes" and completely derailing the conversation.
@@thelostcosmonaut5555 I have had to teach myself to either just stop talking once someone tries to do it or keep talking through the 'joke', which usually amounts to 'haha you said something that could vaguely reference bodily functions let's stop the entire conversation so I can point it out'.
Every single person wants to be the biggest comedian in the room, at all times. It's depressing.
Fantastic video. Thank you for making it. I can't stand when people say, "it takes itself too seriously"
Some things do take themselves too seriously. If what you've written is schlock, don't be offended if it's recognised as schlock. But if what you've written *is* in fact serious, well done.
Filmmakers like Cameron, Villeneuve, and Nolan never abandoned earnestness and sincerity.
James Cameron makes derivative trite
@@doncorleone1553Still extremely sincere which I appreciate.
@@doncorleone1553Not going to argue (cuz you’re Don Corleone, obviously). Just going to note that trite is an adjective. I think you meant tripe. Avatar’s definitely tripe. Sincere tripe.
Yeah, one of the signs that shows that Avatar *really* was conceived back in the day is that the movie never tries to be ironic. The villains are literally after a mineral called _Unobtainium_ and nobody makes fun of it
@@NIDELLANEUM 'Unobtainium' was a completely self-aware inside joke that engineers/scientists would get and dates back to the 1950s aerospace industry. It's not even the first movie to reference it. I think it's mainly just poking fun at all the fictional mcguffin metals we so often see in stories and is no less silly than something like vibranium. Even in the Avatar universe it's just a nickname, and it's only the Corpo moron who says it out loud. Its actual "scientific" name is UBH-310, a room-temperature superconductor.
This is the first video of yours that I watched - and I can't tell you how cathartic it was to finally, finally, hear the uncomfortable and unnerving experience of watching movies lately, being put into words and reason. It deeply resonated with me.
Thank you!
I love this video essay. Just one correction; the substance being smoked out of the pipe by the hobbits is not “weed.” It’s “Long Bottom Leaf” which is actually just tobacco. It wasn’t until the early 70’s that all the hippies assumed it was weed, but Tolkien was a devout religious man and condemned so it would never have been used as weed by him. Just fyi
Finest weed in the Shire is a line in Ep.1 though?
@@Saenz220like plant from the ground weed?
Pipe-weed is similar to, but not exactly tobacco, so there's a little room for interpretation. IMO the most egregious aspect of LOTR films lacking sincerity is when they lean into the "weed" comparison a little too hard. We're adults: you can keep it subtle/implied and we'll still get the joke.
So its weed, its fucking regular weed that doesnt get called weed in middle earth. No need to get pedantic about it.
Tolkien was christian, not a mormon, he could make a joke-under-the-table about it.
It's a case of life imitating art weed wasn't slang for Marijuana until after the Lord Of The Rings came out. Specifically many hippies were fans of the books and would also call Tolkiens telephone late at night to say how much they liked the books.
One of my favorite movie lines is one of Lucy Liu in Detachment: 'It takes courage to care' she shouts at a young girl who acts like she couldn't care less about where her life is going. This can be applied both to the audiences and writers now. To venture into new stories, to take them seriously, to get invested into characters knowing it might hurt you, to *have* expectations in the first place - all of this takes courage. Taking stuff seriously is scary. Subverting expectations can be done good, in such case it's a witty joke told to the audience. But like any joke, it can be done poorly and cheaply, and then we, the viewers, are the butt of it. And no one likes to feel like a fool for caring.
Have to agree. Raimi, honestly, is perfect at this sincerity in superhero films. He genuinely gets them.
Most of his movies are sincere. They have heart and don't point out the weirdness or supernatural element with "Look at how stupid this is".
@@tunnelsnakesrule7541 And they’re great for that. I hated how in Multiverse of Madness Scarlet Witch ended up being the villain, but the pure sincerity in the film cannot be overlooked. I do wonder if Raimi even wanted to use Scarlet Witch as the villain and was mandated to.
I genuinely wouldn’t mind if he did another Marvel film. Preferably Blade. He’d be perfect for Blade.
It actually came to bite him back when he made Spider-Man 3. People HATED how melodramatic it was and that it had people crying all the time and talking about their feelings. Nowadays you wish you could get superhero movies where the titular character would cry without someone stepping into the frame to call him a pussy and telling him to man up.
@@SpiderkillersIncSam Raimi only directed Multiverse of Madness. The screenplay was already written, and it's unclear how much power he had to change anything in it at all. Which is why there's some standout moments visually but the story feels like such gobbledegook. How gruesome some of the deaths are, some unorthodox camera angles and transitions, etc.
@@maxturner9205 Didn't know that. Should have looked it up. If he'd been able to write it, it probably would have been amazing.
One of the reasons I love going back to watch superhero movies from before the MCU was a big thing. We used to get dramas mixed with superhero elements, and now we get comedies with superhero elements mixed in.
iron man 1 was genuinely a great film no unnecessary jokes it took itself seriously, this whole comedy started with avengers 1 which was good too but unnecessary quips takes you out of the dire situations sometimes, i liked infinity war final battle.
@Maab134 Avengers 1 did a good job balancing it. You still took the situation seriously. Where it really went downhill was Age of Ultron. Even the villains were making quips in that movie. They let Whedon off the leash and he went crazy with the humor. Endgame I feel did same the same as Age of Ultron. The music and color grade made it feel like you were supposed to take things seriously, but they had nonstop jokes that really got put of hand. And the writing was just flat out lazy in Endgame as well.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp overall yes avengers 1 took itself seriously it wasn't Deadpool or anything but it still has jokes during battle of newyork, then endgame too yeah very unnecessary scenes but overall endgame has a solid sendoff and ending it had consequences so it was overall kinda worth it but still infinity was a superior film, it was different kind of avengers movie where main character wasn't avengers per say but thanos and he actually won and the movie ended nicely with him chilling on his homeworld while half the universe turns to dust.
@Maab134 Honestly, Endgame felt rushed and poorly written. I think they dropped the ball hard on everyone except for Tony. I mean, they were so lazy they literally used time travel to get the stones, and the circumstances surrounding it don't make sense. It didn't feel like a satisfying conclusion, just an ending. I think we should be demanding better. Endgame is responsible for most of the problems in Phases 4 and 5. Whatever problems people had with Thor 4, were just continuing what Endgame set up.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp final battle was rushed and poor in my opinion and could have been better tbh hulk and war machine had little to no screentime and I didn't liked how the final fight was structured it all looked very bland too many heroes and too much going on infinity war has them separated in multiple teams which worked but here it didn't worked for me, Tony's scenes with his loved ones was great and his death was great too, I think you are talking about the multiverse and the TVA thing when talking about the problems it created post endgame right?
The Planet of the Apes trilogy had great apes throwing spears at cop cars, firing assault rifles while riding on horses and fighting on the top of a collapsing tower in San Francisco, and never once do you question what's happening or thinking it looks stupid because the movies always make you feel the weight of everything that happens, making it all not only believable, but also incredibly cool.
Yeah
True, that is actually a very good example on the power of sincerity. I'm going to use that later.
@@Eamonshort1 The Planet of the Apes is basically a good example of anything good: worldbuilding, character arcs, music, direction. They are exceptional, it's a shame so few people know them
Ufff, Ufffff. I must admit, I don't think that works either.
@@radogen7845 Yeah, while they aren't 2001 A Space Odyssey, or Tree of Life, they accomplish everything they set out to near flawlessly. And they would be great for building a first year college course around. As, again, while not being high art, when it comes to both the script/structure and the technical aspects of film making, it excells. It shows a great understanding of film making fundamentals that is sadly lacking in big budget blockbusters at the moment.
very well put. I've finally figured out why I dislike most new movies and shows. It's not necessarily the premise that bothers me, but rather the overuse of this ironic, 'wink-wink, nudge-nudge' style of storytelling.
I do wonder if internet culture has contributed to this. Internet film discourse is obsessed with relentless deconstruction, shining big spotlights on every plothole, approaching movies as if it's a challenge to see how many flaws you can spot rather than just taking it as the experience is presented. Should we be surprised that the industry has noticed and is getting ahead of us by ironically deconstructing narratives before we can so much as write an IMBD review?
I agree sometimes it really does feel like everything needs to be deconstructed as fast as possible to show off your intelligence and expertise, it leaves smaller room to sit there and appreciate when a story is actually done pretty well.
There is certainly a lot more attention paid to breaking down flaws than building up successes.
definitely a part of it. even the most out-of-touch directors and writers probably consider that reviewers will examine every line and every frame in HD
and if you can't beat em, might as well join em in making fun of your movie
the cinemasinsification of movie watching
This.
It's like moviemakers are afraid that what they're making will be mocked online and turned into a meme, so they pre-emptively mock their own movie ironically, as if saying "you can't make fun of this movie if we're self-aware and point out all the absurdity before you have a chance to".
i think a big part of why LOTR ages better than a lot of modern ironic media is because ironic media leaves very obvious space for the viewer *within* the movie. the movie acknowledges (and, essentially, insists upon) a specific audience reaction that wont always be the same with every viewing. wont be the same with every audience, every generation watching. but LOTR lets the viewer have their own input. whether it be a reaction within context of a fresh premier or a reaction in the year 2064 where everyone sees it completely differently, the audience is *allowed* to have its own reaction no matter the occasion.
I want to make a strange/silly comparison. You know those content creators on TikTok or Instagram who literally cover half the screen with their face, doing nothing but staring you with a specific expression? Yeah, sometimes modern movies seem to be doing this: they "stare" at you in a way that feels like they're saying "see, this is the exact face you should have right now"
@@NIDELLANEUM So canned laughter, but without the ironic value
I feel that the internet has really promoted this as well. My girlfriend, bless her soul I love her but it really bugs me that she can’t keep to sincerity because she’s been conditioned by media and her friends to think that’s just how people are and have to be. Everything must be funny, and if something takes itself seriously and can’t be seen as a joke at the moment, well that’s just goofy and now the whole thing is a joke. And that seems to be a very common sentiment right now, is that if something is serious it shouldn’t be taken seriously.
I have this exact problem with a friend.
Can't hold a serious conversation with him about anything because everything eventually delves to "why you gay" or "yo mama so fat" jokes.
Every. Single. Time.
@@savioblanc Oh that's a... very extreme situation
Imagine a world where “catching feelings” is a phrase, and something to avoid. Genuinely pitiful
Agreed lol I've been aware of this problem for a while and may have skipped over this video if it hadn't been for my girlfriend's recent labeling of anything and every thing that doesn't immediately undercut it's sincerity with some out of pocket quip as "corny"
I asked her the other day "so what makes this corny?" She couldn't come up with a straight answer. Once she figures out she's been conditioned to feel that way hopefully we can get back to taking movies and certain TV shows seriously again 😂
@@savioblanc if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room
This legitimately made me tear up. We need sincerity to understand the things that truly matter, and the damage that insincerity has caused (like you waiting for the punchline throughout LOTR or us waiting for the punchline at the end) is profound. We don’t trust or believe in anything beautiful anymore because every story we tell punishes us for being foolish enough to think that things like good and evil, or love, or honesty are anything other than props to be used and abused to make box office ‘hits.’ And this piece nails it-sincerity is why John Wick was so much fun. It’s why so many (truly terrible) movies from twenty and thirty years ago are so much better than what we make today-they were sincere. They had real stakes, even if every part of them was absurd or dumb. They carried some weight because they tried to carry some weight.
Well done, sir. This is the critique we needed.
I love how you constantly remind that humour in movies is not the problem.
A very well thought video essay!
@@alexandrealvarez8690 quips are the problem
yeah remember in Lotr the two towers, Legolas made joke of Gimli height in a very tense situation or Gimli asking Aragorn to toss him over and the latter flabbergasted with the dwarf wish, he just reply with "what?"
Looking back, the fact that Nolan made a trilogy about a ninja in a bat suit fighting characters like a psychopath in clown makeup while spouting philosophy without a shred of irony, and as a result created one of the best superhero movies ever made, is kinda amazing.
I legitimately can't imagine someone playing a concept like that straight these days.
Nolan had the Schumacher movies to learn from.
Batman 2022 played it straight in a different way to the Nolan films as well.
@@francesca234 True. The Batman 2022 was a worthy successor to the Dark Knight trilogy.
@@Sergei_Ivanovich_Mosin Didn’t we all slam Christopher Nolan for taking his movies seriously? What fucking changed? And why didn’t we get to the core root of the problem, which is “we stopped listening to the artists and allowed studios to fuck them over”
@@ayamutakino I only remember a few people making fun of Nolan for that, most people I knew thought the Dark Knight movies were pure kino.
Except the opening scene of TDKR, Baneposting is still a meme to this day thanks to how awkwardly written that whole scene was.
time really proved Scorcese right
Almost everyone disagrees with him
Time didn't do anything. There's merit in what he said. There will always be merit. You can go to any era and see it. Just the way he said it was a a little off
@@nms7872 he said spielberg doesn’t make cinema
@@ruttedrumble3332 I am amazed by your comprehensive skills
@@burner-lc5fk I’m amazed you can’t read between any lines
Great analysis. I feel like most comments in social media mirror this. It’s almost like we humans in modern society have become too afraid to be sincere anymore.
Finally someone recognizes the weakness of Ragnarok. Most people said it was so fun and bright, so it must be good. But I see it as the first major death of a sincere character in the MCU. Sure Thor has had his goofball moments in the avengers, but Ragnarok was a whole movie about Thor filled with an ooc Thor. That insincerity was also a big reason why Endgame was weaker than Infinity War which was SO serious.
Honestly, i enjoyed Ragnorak the first time i watched it. But every watch after it gets worse and worse. It's nowhere near as good as the Ragnorak storyline in the comics. The only scene i genuinely still like is the Doctor Strange scene. Also, totally agree on Endgame. It's almost like they want it to feel serious. The coloring and music, but then they constantly make jokes and references. It feels like it was made by completely different people.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lpBro that's exactly how I felt about Ragnorak. First time watching it was a blast. Then after watching it for the second and third time, I just got annoyed. It didn't help that the Thor comics I was reading made me despise what they were doing with him in the MCU. Reading the Thor comics was almost like reading Lord of Rings. A vast world with sorcerery, elves, giants and Dwarves.
Honestly, I liked Ragnorok just because I was tired of all the serious stuff. Like, the Avengers fell apart, Thanos is coming, it was nice to have a goofy movie before everything went bad.
But in hindsight, yeah. Turning Thor into a joke was bad for the character and set up the disaster that was Love and Thunder.
Thank you so much for saying this. I’ve been feeling the exact same way for years now! I feel like Taika Waititi just took the character of Thor, killed him and replaced him with a terrible replica. He basically made a clone of Star Lord, but with a Thor skin. I hated how in that movie, Thor’s friends get brutally murdered by Hela but yet he has no intense reaction to their deaths whatsoever. That was my first red flag.
The director just treated it all like a joke and Love and Thunder just made it worse.
Yeah, I've been disappointed by how Thor and Loki have been consistently made less serious. I was prepared for Ragnarok because my family had seen it before me and kept saying how hilarious it was, so I was able to mostly enjoy it by adjusting my expectations. But the one thing I still hated was the music choice for when Thor rose up at the end. If that one thing had been changed from "badass rock song" to "powerful, moving, soundtrack" I think it could've saved Ragnarok for me personally. Just to have at least the most important part of the film, the culmination of Thor's entire character arc, be taken seriously would've been enough. But no, we'd rather feel badass than like a phoenix from the ashes with all the pain of the fire that burned us coursing though our veins. Fine. Be that way.
I hate it.
Nic Pizzolatto called this "abusing the audience". He was talking about that same exact problem when explaining why True Detective became such a hit. Because both he and his show respected the audience and treated it seriously. It was earnest, and earnestness is the kryptonite for cynics.
Lord & Miller abused their audience, apparently
True Detective was nihilistic in an earnest way instead of an ironic way. Not really better
I like "hateful moviemaking" myself.
@@LynetteTheMadScientist It had a nihilistic main character, however the show was not inherently nihilistic, as Cohle is a vastly changed character by the end of the show. I'd rewatch it if that was the main takeaway you got got from it on first watch if I were you.
@@KingJori_True, rust by the end of the season 1 was a changed man. He becomes optimistic and started believing in higher power none of which he was or believe in the show before that point.
I watched fellowship with my wife recently. She had never seen it before and was entranced into its world, story and characters. Everything about it seemed genuine and real in its presentation. She too was stuck in that rut of watching "modern" movies.
I think the other side of the coin is when modern storytelling isn’t hinging on irony, it replaces sincerity with repugnant didacticism. Moralistic, self-righteous characters who gleefully slap around and kill antagonists for daring to disagree with their worldview are neither heroic nor compelling. Thus as a culture we have become brutalized by an endless barrage of amoral character arcs and one-dimensional villainy…. Or in other words, what you said, nihilism.
This is a great video. I studied screenwriting, never broke into the industry, but always loved storytelling and you put into words here and the heart of an issue that has been bothering me since 2005. So great job lol
I've said this before, ever since Shrek, people seem terrified to be honest with their emotions, they hide everything behind irony or humor, never daring to show their true feelings. It just makes everything so insincere and shallow.
which is insane because shrek has always tugged so strongly at my heartstrings and always communicated such heart-filled messages like how much value a person inherently has despite social opinion, and how finding your tribe can help you love yourself authentically, and that authentic self love attracts your best life. it really boils down to execs missing the points of good ironic media, i think. they saw the beginning of the movie, went "clearly the ironic tone is killing" and they regurgitate it without bothering to see the earnestness under the surface ):
@colorblockpoprocks6973 I'm not knocking Shrek, I love the movie as much as you do. Shrek probably wasn't the first movie like that, but it was certainly the first movie I remember that was incredibly cynical. The whole "subverting tropes" seemed to have started with that movie and that cynicism seemed to have spread rapidly through kids movies before spreading out to regular movies too. You couldn't have a regular princess that needed saving anymore, there had to be some twist on the story. You couldn't have someone go on an adventure anymore, there had to be some winking at the camera at all times.
Like I said, it probably didn't start with Shrek but Shrek certainly popularized the attitude, and it caught on like wildfire. I can't remember the last sincere movie I watched. Everything is so insincere now, so afraid of showing any honest emotion. It just all seems so hollow.
it wasn't shrek, it was mystery science theater 3000
I think it has less to do with Shrek and more to do with online culture (which was going mainstream around the time Shrek came out). Satires like Shrek had existed for decades, but what hadn’t was the internet. We didn’t used to be able to connect with other fans daily, or watch comedic criticisms on youtube, or be able to tag celebrities directly on social media. There was a big barrier between the people who made media and the people who consumed it, so meta commentary, fan service, and winks to the audience were much rarer. The people making movies now have grown up online, and they bring that cynical, nihilistic meme culture with them.
@@solarydaysmaybe so, but boomers are incredibly thin skinned emotional people. The most economically lucky people to ever live on earth and still filled with grievances against everyone else
Thor Ragnarok was directed by Taika Waititi. Taika had always been cynical and postmodern, but he was grounded by mostly telling stories with serious undertones drawing largely from his own experiences as a smalltown Maori boy. When he got his shot in the big leagues he decided to leave that behind and double-down on all cynicism all the time which isn't very clever or interesting.
it’s a shame cuz i absolutely loved The Hunt for the Wilderpeople
Ah Yes the famous small Māori town of Wellington
@@parmenides2576 He was born in Wellington but a big chunk of his childhood was in Raukokore (very isolated east coast).
What? Someone with genuine soul loses it after making it big? Truly a unique event.
Another empty husk for the grinder.
See, you can't even make a comment on a TH-cam video about sincerity without two people trying to be witty!
The ending made me smile genuinely, because I WAS expecting a joke...you proved your point that we've all been conditioned to be uncomfortable with sincerity. Great video.
So he _did_ a subverted ironic joke anyway.
In addition to some films mentioned in the comments and in your video: *RRR*.
An absolute masterpiece and breath of fresh air against this trend. With all its over the top action, impossibly skilled superhero-tier characters in a world with no supernatural elements, special effects where the laws of nature don't apply - and the entire time, the movie just leans into it fully, and takes itself and the story 100% seriously. Which makes the sincere, serious moments of the film feel completely in place and belieavable. Not once is all those impossible elements played for laughs, or the audience made fun of for caring about the story and characters. The only humor there is, is actual classic humor between the characters - the guy being nervous and awkward with girls, the imperial british failing spectacularly at dancing compared to the main characters, language barriers, etc.
Not what I expected after the last few years' insincerity seen especially in action movies.
15:26 I can't believe I was actually waiting for a joke to ruin the moment.
Yeah that's where I realized that I've been trained to expect that too. I needed him pointing it out to actually take the video even more seriously.
Same, I don't even watch modern movies and yet it still got me- made me realize how much the old MCU has damaged my brain even when I am fully aware of the humor being cheap
Yea my brain was literally already making a joke at the end of the video when he said that i was like 😅 shit
I think it probably got everyone that watched this. Brilliant writing on his part tbh.
I mean... His comment at the end felt like a ironic self meta joke... He recognized what we expected and subverted that... 😅
One way I have phrased this problem in the past is: “Why would I take this movie serious, if the movie itself refuses to. The characters take every opportunity to tell me it is no big deal”
Agree. It's hard to get invested for me
Very good. I teach a high school cinema studies class and it never really dawned on me how much MCU humor had warped their minds and expectations. This put a new perspective on a few things.
@@developingtank have you ever considered watching the works of Phil Lord & Chris Miller, Edgar Wright, Sam Mendes, Lana & Lilly Wachowski, Park Chan-wook, Bong Joon-ho, and the Coen brothers instead of restricting yourself to multi-million dollar superhero movies?
@@developingtank Show them the works of Edgar Wright, The Coen Brothers, and Phil Lord & Chris Miller.
@@ayamutakino I thought Edgar Wright would work well too, but they hated it and felt it was "dated". The Coen Brothers did work though.
@@developingtank If they hated Wright, it’s a sign that we’re in the end of times
@@ayamutakino I couldn't agree more
Sincerity is like an old currency you just don't see anymore, like a groat, very rare and priceless
This is is unbelievably spot on. I never even realized why I never go to see modern films. There are no real emotions. No sincerity.
The whale
X
There are lots. Just not generally big blockbusters (Dune parts 1 and 2 being a recent exception).
It's all mainstream entertainment these days. There's more content than one could have dreamed of having access to even 20 years ago, yet it has all the depth of a half-empty paddling pool.
It sounds hipster-y, but the only places you get actual quality in any medium these days is from small studios, independent artists, people who don't owe their souls to corporations.
Top Gun: Maverick and Godzilla Minus One. A couple big films (even if one isn't Hollywood) of the past few years which come to mind as being very well-received and getting excellent word-of-mouth praise, and I've always felt a HUGE part of this (among their other qualities) is exactly this sort of sincerity and taking themselves seriously. They don't undercut serious emotional moments with humour, and in Maverick I can think of a few times they do the opposite, undercutting _humour_ with _being_ _serious._
It's something that I think a lot of people are aware of on some unconscious level, even if they don't know how to put it into words, but people WANT to let themselves be emotionally invested in the characters, the story, the world, that's... kind of the whole purpose of fiction, really.
I think that is why Bollywood and Tollywood films are starting to gain popularity with American audiences. Their genuine sincerity
Those movies are laughed at. That's the popularity
@@vileink4733 not as much as you think, when people discuss them online, they talk about how genuine they feel, how sincere the films are.
.
Like the film, R.R.R. people genuinely love the bromance aspect, they point out that the actors play their roles straight without cynicism.
.
I recommend Patrick H. Willems video on R.R.R.
Korean cinema takes itself seriously.
@@vileink4733if RRR is one of those and people brush it off as joke, they need to revisit it cuz it’s fucking awesome
@@vileink4733 Some of them are. Others are appreciated for their sincerity. They're often jokingly called live action anime and I think there's more to the comparison than how over the top they are.
FINALLY SOMEONE IS TALKING ABOUT THIS! Ive been complaining about it for years
I think modern movies are both trying to be movies and are afraid of being movies at the same time.
Like, they try to be all like "that's not realistic or practical" but also try to not be serious or have that kinda heart....
Like, they are trying to be too meta and not take the story seriously, but also tie down the story to be too realistic at the same time...
@@TheDeathmail The films of Edgar Wright, Sam Mendes, David Fincher, The Coen brothers, the Wachowski sisters, Park Chan-wook, Hideaki Anno, Bong Joon-ho, and Phil Lord & Chris Miller say otherwise. Some of the greatest filmmakers of all time.
Something I love about anime and manga is that everything about it, the vision, the world building, the characters, and storytelling, more often than not seems so un-compromising.
There are some, but i feel like most anime lately is as bad as it gets with meta humor, tropes and working on audience expectations. Certainly doesn't feel very sincere when characters are there to fill otaku checkboxes like the obligatory yandere
@@CptnYarrow I think anime definitely became popular because of it's sincerity--just look at the widely loved melodrama of shounen--unfortunately now anime is suffering from the same issue too. Before it was just throwing out completely generic content shamelessly, enthusiastically following the same structure with the same tropes proudly but with a slight thematic twist. Now, it's that, but with a level of meta irony. Hell, the Japanese even literally use the word _meta_ for it.
In our era of global hyper-consumption, finding even average fiction/entertainment is becoming an active participation treasure hunt.
@@CptnYarrowI don’t think so anime always had that kind of unapologetic shitty humor it just didn’t surface that much but the core mainstream shonen animes still take themselves very much seriously
Godzilla Minus One is another recent example of earnest storytelling done right, earning the love of the audience as a result. Even a “monster movie” can be so sincere that it makes everyone in the theater weep. I cried both times I watched it.
Absolutely! I was hoping to see it mentioned in here. First movie I've seen in theatres four times (also, three times). It has a ton of amazing points in its favour, but the honesty and sincerity are absolutely a huge part of why it's gotten such fantastic and largely word-of-mouth praise. People WANT characters, stories, and worlds that they can love and care about, even if they don't quite consciously realize that's what they've been missing.
Really broadened my perception of things. It's something that I've never been able to pinpoint but was itching the back of my brain. Good video!
"The breaf lauph that irony provides is nowhere near worth what it takes away" this video is rich in good quotes, nice philosophical contribution mate
Very strong ending. I felt myself tensing up, and only realized why half a second before you asked if I was expecting a joke.
Meme culture plays a big part in this too, as sincere movies provide countless memes at the expense of the movie. An example I keep on thinking of is "Whats in the box?" from Seven. Taken out of context, Brad Pitt's reaction seems over-the-top, but within the movie it is an incredibly moving, dramatic scene.
THANK YOU for saying this. I was dating a girl who communicated a lot with memes when I wanted a regular conversation with her.
This is true.
Se7en is an inherently insincere movie because of how serious it takes itself, honestly.
Twin Peaks: The Return spoofing it with cherry pie in a box I think seals it. Because Twin Peaks is intensely serious and personal, and not in an exploitative way that Se7en is.
Se7en doesn't even name it's city, I don't think you can call a movie serious in the good way if it could plausibly take place in Gotham City for all we know, that makes in very insincere.
Weird you didn’t mention “Everything Everywhere All At Once”. That’s the only movie to truly embrace irony with stuff like raccacuoi, and still have me in tears by the end with its genuine sincerity
In EEAAO, there were genuine moments. Real hugs, and real tears, and the time to feel it, it wasn't moving from one meta-gag to another.
That film had me laughing and crying at the same time. It's so good.
That actually wasn’t my experience. I still felt that “4th wall barrier” with a few moments of earnestness within.
@@ab-gailWhen the doughnut showed up I thought I was watching a live-action Rick & Morty.
I took the movie as an argument *against* the kind of meta irony this video is talking about. The villain uses the meta irony as a defense mechanism to mask her real pain. She's saying "the world is random and meaningless," but she wants to be wrong about that. That's especially evident in rock scene.
That's why to this day one of my favorite movies is Speed Racer, as fucking insane as that movie is, the pure deep sincerity, the way the movie hands you its heart in that final race. I was 8 when I watched it and it was the first time a movie made me cry.
I think the reason why the Loki/ Hulk scene works is not just because it's subverts expectations, but it's also realistic in the world that we are watching on the screen. The Hulk doesn't wait to hear the monologue he just gets right into pounding Loki. It would be more unrealistic if the Hulk just sat there listening to his monologue, which is a usual Trope in superhero movies where the hero hears the villains monologue. However, in that scene reality subverts the expectations of the audience and that's why we laugh because it also makes sense.
Anyhow thats my two cents on it. Love your video!🎉
Yeah, except, Loki is supposed to be smart and cunning, and he would obviously know that Hulk isn't to be reasoned with. At the very least, he'd have a projection of himself make threats to the Hulk just in case. Again, that's the MCU formula: sacrificing character consistency for cheap laughs.
@@antona.1327Loki was also full of ego and possibly going insane at the time due to excessive use of the mind stone. He probably really believed he could make the Hulk submit by bragging about his good hood.
@@antona.1327Loki doesn’t know who tf he is
This kind of breaks my heart. I hope I can teach my children that sincerity is good.
0:48 Yes, we have seen this before. No, not a villain monologue: a villain monologue being interrupted by the hero showing that a hero doesn't listen to speeches, they act. Specifically, this is just a repetition of the scene in The Incredibles when Syndrome runs his mouth and Mr. Incredible tries to kill him for it.
This scene is actually “if you want to shoot, shoot. Don’t talk.”
No its a very joss wedon moment. Happened before the incredibles. Possibly taken from buffy
Irony works only once.
Sincerity works every time.
Not sure Loki getting trashed by Hulk is an example of self-aware humour. At the very least, it's a mix of both self-aware and sincere humour. Loki is establishled as having delusions of grandeur, and Hulk is established as a physican match for Thor, who is in turn established to be stronger than Loki, but Hulk lacks Thor's and Loki's (and Tony's TBF) fondness of theatrics, because it's barely capable of anything else other than rampaging. So the scene played out the only way it possibly could, even if it subverted the evil monologe trope in the process.
Exactly the joke works because it's still true to the characters. The joke works cause it's a little man who thinks he's tough being embarrassed. It's satisfying and means something to the story and it's themes more than just haha funny. It's the play that ends loki as a threat.
It's a more general problem where studio people see something work once and then just thoughtlessly copy it (for a more specific example, look at family connections in Star Wars).
That's not a new problem, but I think it's especially bad with this one because the movies are telling you not to care.
Sure is. Loki was a serious character in Branagh's Thor, who had absolutely nothing remotely funny about his character. Then comes in Whedon and thinks it'd be cool to take MCU's titular villain and make him the most pathetic and irrelevant clown imaginable. Granted, in retrospect, compared to what happened with Loki in 2017 onward, that scene isn't as bad, but it's still garbage and it kills any consequences or sense of danger the character have brought.
@@omalleycaboose5937 Loki was a tragic character in the hands of Branagh (the only person in the entire MCU who got Loki right). Why the F does Loki need to be the butt of jokes suddenly and why his threat needs to stop? Imagine if in The Dark Knight the last we saw of the Joker wasn't him laughing like a madman, but him telling the SWAT team that's approaching him ''Hey, guys, wanna hang out? Get it? Hahaha, hahaha... Yeah, sorry, I'm kind of getting dizzy over here from all this height. It's hard to make good jokes when hang on a rope on a skyscraper.''
In the Avengers film, Loki is also meant to be a despicable arrogant villain, so seeing him beaten by the Hulk was a moment of catharsis and proof that for all his bragging, Loki is basically a pathetic bully.
The scene is funny sure, but it has the purpose of making the audience cheer when the villain gets their desserts.
I also think the main issue with this irony problem is that there's nothing ELSE but meta humor and subversion, to the point that it has become, by itself, a cliché. Like you said, it worked in Avengers because it was unexpected, but I also think that it was complimentary rather than the point of the movie unlike Thor: Ragnarok, and even then, that movie worked because it came after a string of more serious movies. Look at what happened with Thor 4 and how everyone seems to hate it--the shiny new gimmick stopped working due to overuse.
I've said this before and I'll say it again, but it also feels like the writers are too scared to show any vulnerability out of fear that their work will be made fun of, so what you get are empty husks pantomiming humanity. Who cares if someone makes fun of your art? People parody LOTR often. Does that detract from its quality? Yeah, exactly. It doesn't. Let them laugh.
As someone who has always enjoyed satire and parody, these pale imitations fail the moment they have nothing to say, the moment they use the label as a crutch rather than an element to get their point across. They have no point. They're nothing. Conversely, the most acclaimed comedies out there tend to have a 'heart' from which their jokes get meaning and allow the audience to get attached. It's okay to feel. It's great to feel, in fact.
Endgame was the movie that pushed Thor so far outside of who he is that it broke the character. Thor 4 just continued what Endgame set up.
Phil Lord & Chris Miller, The Coen Brothers, Park Chan-wook, Sam Mendes, Bong Joon-ho and Edgar Wright all say otherwise.
The problem isn't with our entire culture, there are still plenty of sincere and earnest people out there. The problem is with the particular sort of people who have taken up most of the jobs in creative media over the past decades. The industry is full of cynical nihilists and overgrown children. They were pipelined straight into the job from their creative writing majors in expensive colleges, and their parents were probably already in the industry. They are exclusively career-oriented, have never been outside their bubble to see the real world, and their own inner lives are plastic and shallow. They hide their lack of depth and life experience by covering up with sneers and snide quips. The creative caste has become weak, lazy, and out of touch, and needs replacing. With exceptions, of course.
Do you actually know these people, or are you just parroting something you heard the Critical Drinker say?
@@eyespy3001 Neither, it's my own estimation and I feel quite confident about it
@eyespy3001 it's hilarious how you think the Drinker is alone in his assessment and brainwashing everyone, much like the trashbags you're probably subscribed to. Projection much? Lol
@eyespy3001 You don't have to know these people. They're humans.
"Anything that is human is not foreign to me." -Terence.
Interesting because movies messages even nowadays are neither cynical nor nihilistic for the most part.