People have gotten burnt one to many times, all it takes is a mistake or two and some random to yell(or in most cases type in all cap)and it just kill's all motivation to keep trying. Add to the fact M+ is mostly speed running with less room for error and an even bigger emphasis on meta gameplay, it's just not fun and can be pretty damn stressful.
I'd be lying if I said I was never frustrated with people who don't know tactics/how to play their class well. Definitely no need to be overtly rude about it though.
Thing is, it rly scares new players away. A friend of mine bought the game, grinded and ran m+. (so we could play together) He used guides and is an overall "i dont wanna waste anyones time" type player. Yet if you do anything for the first few times, you do mistakes. aint no way around. Still you get smashed, insulted, told to end it & told to go play tetris or anything.. He literally stopped playing, saying that there is no fun in stressfull speedruns where u get insulted and trashed for stuff u sometimes didnt even do wrong. Your fault your m+ rating is below 2k
Also it's so long grind to get anything decent for your investment. You need to grind decent stats to get into high keys and then grind even more to have a shot to win anything long term useful.
I think it’s mostly that Blizz has a system that punishes you for leavers but doesn’t punish the actual person leaving. As a dps this can be incredibly punishing and discouraging when it can take nearly an hour to fill a group and just listing one locks you out of virtually all other instanced content. You literally have to sit and wait around then hope that people who join aren’t assholes. Meanwhile they are almost incentivized to brick your key at first sign of trouble since they have zero repercussions and value their time too
I've had people want to kick me from a group I created for my key -- because I wasn't playing a meta class/spec. I laughed and dropped the group. Ran it successfully with some others.
I have a little rant as a healer new to M+. what spooks me most about M+ is all the extra challenges. When ever I start to push keys a little these extra challenges like having to run away from ghosts, making sure I don't spell lock my healing but also needing to make sure my needed healing goes out in those moments. As a healer I already have so much to keep track of. I can do it, but in terms of mechanics having to worry about the base instance mechanics, the challenge mechanics, healing and still be expected to DPS as much as I can when I have the time is just very overwhelming and I can feel my performance start to tank from the anxiety. Like oh 2 dps died because my instant casts were on CD and I had to run from a ghost because my cc was on CD from the last ghost. The fact that "people just die" in keystones is a common thing just crushes my spirit as a healer, it makes me feel like I am doing something wrong even if I am playing to the most I can on my class and technically didn't mess up majorly. Like I can do all this stuff, but the fact I have to do so much at once and under a time limit makes me feel like I am not doing any of them to the fullest I know I can do them at. And that is a horrible feeling.
I feel your pain and also as mainly dps (I have an alt priest I made for healing specifically) I must say that there are many times during those hectic times the DPS SHOULD USE CDs and not expect the healer to just heal through everything. So many times I've seen ppl blame the healer while propably their defensives are not on cd. I play warlock so I'm a bit tankier maybe but still I pop HS when needed and Dark Pact..or even the Unending Resolve if I feel like it's gonna make the life of healer so much easier and less stressfull at times.
Biggest problem is dps just want to faceroll and not do anything for self preservation, like paladins that wont use brez or shadow priests that wont self heal. Same thing happens in raids, defensives,...whats that?
@@blacksabbathmatters It's gone on for a long time lol literally goes back as far as vanilla I'd say. I noticed in pvp during Cata that players couldn't comprehend using defensive abilities or CCs or even use a heal on a player nearby and it gets even worse in dungeons since they go in with the mindset of "oh its not my job to heal is it?" like they don't comprehend something *could* go wrong in a dungeon and it'd fall on the remaining group to pick it up. Enhancement Shaman made this easy since you could fulfill all the roles essentially.
Because of the community. It's wild that so many players (now into their 30s) absolutely REFUSE to get along with one another. It's super embarrassing, incredibly immature and keeps people away from playing content like m+, where this behavior really shines through. PvP participation is way down and m+ is down - the two areas where people act like complete fools to each other.
It's all because of the 'speed runner' timer being the main focus and not having a creative instance where you have to 'think' your way through it. No timer also means no loss of key and at worst you are only trading time which you do anyway by simply logging in to play this game. The whole design of mythic dungeons in its current state is just garbage. If you want to speed run games, join the plethora of communities out there dedicated to doing this on all kinds of different games. Speed running does not belong in an RPG.
I kinda have the same problem when starting in M+. Finding the group. But now I joined the No Pressure (or Low Pressure, and Zero Pressure) community on WoW EU. Lots of groups going. And a very chill environment.
As a high end mythic raider and m+ player I can say that most of the groups are afraid of failers so they tent to pick players far above whats required to make it easier. People are also not very committed so they leave quick, easily triggered by everything and avoid any kind of voice chat which makes it impossible to build a coordinated random group to push M+ dungeons.
@@dutyofcall7659 That's not true, its hard yeah, but people pug & time keys above 20 without voice chat all the time. Happened a lot throughout SL. But it is easier after the dungeons have been out a while and the routes/strats have been refined down.
@@bst857 Sure it happens but very rarely and only after intense grinding which wastes big amounts of time. Playing a coordinated group with voice makes it much easier.
@@dutyofcall7659 I'm 2889 io, I've pugged my way to 22's and it's difficult but usually players at this rating/skill level know what they're doing. It's just a matter of having some sort of communication, like assigning kicks for marked mobs is a great and simple way of handling most things in keys. 23 is where pugging becomes nearly impossible, except for SBG and CoS.
I would say getting to dungeons is much easier than raiding. In dungeons you can gradually increase your raideio scores. But in raiding no one will let you in on normal because you haven't defeat 8/8.
I definitely think it's easier to get an invite to a dungeon group than a raid group for sure. Raid groups (outside mythic) have just been a lot more chill in my experience.
Its is, but in case of dungeons, you gotta make through the ocean of saltiness and toxic crybabys. Oh and dont forget the leavers, if one of ur DD dies it's time to alt+f4. What we still got 20min in this key? I dont care. Also good time to alt + f4 when u stand in AOE and get like a 500k 1 shot. Fucking useless healer cant even outheal an ability supposedto delete me.. 1k bots...
What bothers me so much about mythic plus (as they are my fav part of the game), is that Blizz made them so unforgiving with interrupt mechanics this season. You pretty much have to have coms in keys 18+ just for the kick and CD rotation. It's so much harder this season that you really need a steady 5 man team to exclusively run with while learning mechanics and getting used to tanking & healing habits in said keys. For instance, both of my guild's main 2 tanks run almost exclusively with their own groups. Luckily I tank more in M+ than I dps, however I have to pug keys on my main raid DPS... and it's just been a nightmare. So much more this season than any I can remember. Good players seem to stick together as it seems they are extremely hard to find in pugs, and it's just frustrating for someone who basically needs to run keys just to keep competing in raid. I've had experiences with extremely toxic players calling out the lesser experience pugs to a degree they just straight up leave the group. I've had pugs get to a final boss of the key, ask for a bathroom break, come back just to leave the key. I've had players with 0 interrupts legitimately thinking other players are the problem (since they have a whopping 2k overall damage more than the ones interrupting.) In closing, maybe I'm just jealous of the 5 man teams able to reliably run together 3-4 nights a week like clockwork while pushing content.
It's definitely apparent how overtuned the dungeons are as the weeks go on and the nerfs come in. As for forming your own groups, it is definitely the way to play if you want to get the most out of keys.
@@Jaggro Not fully sure about overtuning thing though. You absolutely can do 20+ without coms full pug and idk.. feeling like the challenge rating is okay? Currently at 404 ilvl, so probs going to be able to get to 24/25+ as my gear and experience gets better. Now my "fear" is... If they nerf the content, what's the point really? Also, if someone's max is +12, why is it a problem? It's not overtuned dungeon, it's that their skill is at +12 level. Maybe I'm missing something, but things seem quite fine rn?
As someone that went from playing Classic (first on Private servers, then blizzard's version from vanilla up to current wrath) into playing high M+ starting in Shadowlands, i can tell you the main "problem" classic players will encounter. I'll speak from my main perspective, that being of a healer (Discipline priest being my main, but i dabble also in Holy paladin and Resto shaman) A) it's a complete shift in mentality... in Classic you're acustomed to having your spells, on them there is a little blurb that tells what the spells does, and you use it. In retail, as a healer, if you go into a dungeon and start using your spells to heal, you're gonna barely massage your party's HP bars and barely heal the damage. Instead you need to learn what your passives do, the fact that X spell empowers Y spell, and that they both receive an additional effect by spell Z (for example Resto shaman's Unleash life + riptide stacking into cloudburst totem..which is the bread and butter of most shaman pulls, yet its not as easy to understand as simply reading what 1 spell does) B) way more to keep track of. Just check the footage of any M+ key above 7-8, then compare it to any scenario from vanilla to wrath. The amount of actions required by any player per second are not even comparable. From my experience, as someone that has a lot of time spent in "classic" versions of the game, most classic players don't "really" want to have a super challenging time. There is a reason why now that Ulduar is out many want to go back in Molten Core and Blackwing lair. Guilds went from chilling in discord bullshitting and joking with each other and occasionally focusing on a boss fight, to having to do constant callouts + listening to the raid leader without interrupting; and personally i see nothing wrong with either, i adore both versions of the game..but it just isnt the socially focused-chill experience that most classic players want (it's also why i think there is the HC craze now..it's a way to still enjoy the super casual and chill game that is vanilla WoW, while at the same time making it interesting) That atmosphere is the complete anthithesis of Mythic +, in which every single run is 20-30 minutes of hyper focus on mechanics and nothing else, especially in pugs.
This is actually a very interesting perspective. I've been maining a variety of tanks for years and don't have as many of the problems as described because being the "leader" of the group, forming my own keys and being familiar with the mechanics is just second nature to me. I've been making my own routes for years while playing healers and dps alts or offspecs to keep an eye on what other tanks do and what I can do better so I don't become stagnant in my tanking abilities. I had a conversation with a friend the other day about his perspective as an off-meta healer and difficulties of getting into groups, doing keys etc, and I suppose from lucky coincidence this video and that conversation inspire me to create some sort of "guide" to a more pleasant pugging experience. We'll see if I get anything done lmao Edit a month later: i did not get anything done
I used to do almost nothing on m+, and was afraid of a 6+ key or higher, and the tip to pass through the fear of doing m+ is exactly doing it and failing a lot of times, and don't be afraid of higher keys, just queue up and do it, at the first ones you probably going to suck, but you get used to doing it as long as you queue up and complete the keys, it does not matter if you time it or not. Another thing that help me with this fear was to do the keys with some friends, it's not that hard to make friends to play with you on the m+ queues, a lot of people especially in lower keys are trying to learn themselves to, so group up and chill hehe
My advice for casuals is run low keys first. Don't bite off more than you can chew. Low keys are eons less toxic and you can learn by doing instead of reading guides. If it's too easy increase a level or two. If it's still tough play a few more low keys until you feel like you get the mechanics right.
In my experience, 15-20s are FAR less toxic than 10-14s, and about as toxic as 2-7s. People get *desperate* for that KSM achievement, and if they view you as inhibiting that goal will lash out. Once you are past that hump, each individual key matters a lot less.
The most basic reason is that too many people are reward driven and just want an easy way to loot and/or rating. This results to both people who quit if things go bellow their expected threshold as well as those who either either directly toxic or require too much from others. All these are bypassed by doing M+ mainly with people you know from your guild, dedicated community, streamer communities etc.
Nice video! Really loving the content. Something I thought about as I was watching the video (and something I've experienced for myself) is that, along with item level and raider io score, the type of class you play weighs heavily into the decision to get invited to a group. Don't have blood lust? Don't have a battle ress? You're class isn't optimal for the affixes? Sorry we'll take the bloodlust, ancestral guidance, shammy over your demon hunter that can...eye beam? Can get a bit frustrating, especially when the keys are lower than a 10 where those differences don't have too much of an impact on completing the key. Keep up the content. Already looking forward to the next video!
Didn't even think about mentioning the class Meta but you're 100% right. Sometimes playing the wrong class means getting completely locked out of content
I used to raid mythic, heroic before mythic was even a thing. I quit in Legion and have been casual ever since. I did +15s for the mount in Shadowlands s1 but after that I wasn't interested. Now, I just really appreciate having free time and not having to commit. I want to have the rewards, better gear etc, but I love not having a schedule or disappointing a group (or myself) when I can't make it.
I found this video looking for a "M+ for dummies" guide... It hits all the reasons I dodged Mythic dungeons until now. When you are being flamed for not knowing a Shortcut in a NORMAL dungeon run, one starts to wonder if you can get everything right when there is noone to explain it to you once you enter the instance.... What are the mechanics of each trashmob, how do I react if someone does not do X mechanic, As my RIO is 0 can I even queue as tank not knowing what to pull and not having a gauge on what I can survive at all, do I need to worry about consumables? flasks? foodbuffs? I have no idea how the enchant and socket meta works .... the list goes on and on if you are a true casual wanting to do SOME form of endgame.
wow such a great video, thank you soo much! As a sole mythic plus player this video was awesome and very accurate... Mythic plus is such a rush i love it.
I don't think it's always a matter of being scared. A lot of people have access to a group of friends to do mythic+ with. With no social repercussions for failure. The issue, at least for me; Is that Mythic+ as a system doesn't belong in World of Warcraft (Though bear in mind that I say this with the sensibilities of an old man who's seen the game evolve over almost 20 years). There are many factors to consider too. The overall experience, the kind of person it seeks to attract, the way it's implemented etc. etc. Seemingly always seem to crystallize into things I don't want in my RPG. I like certain ELEMENTS of mythic+, and I feel that they do have a place in an RPG. Affixes, for instance are a great example of this. But those elements have also been implemented in a really poor way by blizzard, and seem to be an ongoing topic of contention in the community. Like many deaths being completely unavoidable due to bad RNG and the fact that healers are supposed to do way too much at once that doesn't revolve around healing. in a high key, a person can die in the matter of a GCD because the healer was forced to do other shit to make it work. Again, that's an issue of poor implementation and bad design philosophy, separate to the system philosophy I spoke of first, but one of many major issues to say the least. All of this is without taking into account many of the other things that are issues in WoW right now such as botting, boost-selling, LFG system etc. etc. that exacerbate and compound on any other issue the game also has.
I think that’s part of the issue letting someone know they messed up isn’t “toxic” depends on how you say it but I noticed a lot of people take any sort of criticism as toxic behavior
I’ve seen criticism being given in a positive way. And that happens so few times. It’s always someone malding like you were the catalyst to their villain arc
I care little for ilvl so M+ is really not interesting to me. But besides the players themselves, the biggest issue for me is simple: Raider IO. I am simply not jumping through hoops for some 3rd party off brand skill points system
Funny enough you talked about listening to music while pugging a raid group. I did this when I was big into m+ in Dragonflight. I bulldozed through a +5 of Algethar in under half the time doing this. Music really helps I must say
My problem with the more recent design of mythic+ is that is overvalues aoe damage, CC really isn't a factor outside of aoe stuns and the affixes are needlessly punishing to the healers. Almost everyone I know that says they love mythic+ are dps players, it's very rare you'll find a tank or healer that claims they love pushing highly stressful key attempts.
Dragon Flight will be my first time I'll be achieving KSM. I've been playing WoW for years and group content doesn't bother me nor do toxic players which I've found in my pug experience are few. I record all of my m+ runs as a learning tool for myself but also new strats I've learned from other players. Advice I would give new players to M+ is do research on each dungeon and learn along the way by doing the content, start out small and work your way up the m+ ladder.
I was just thinking that; all the effort put into finding a group was and sometimes and didn’t work out was a normal thing in Burning Crusade for me. But it kind of worked out because I was in school and could do homework while waiting haha
As someone who has the original Amani War Bear, done mage tower, cakewalked through brawler's guild in every season, and have a generally okay concept of how to research a class to play it, I don't think I'm likely to ever group again. The overall attitude of players has changed so much and not for the better. Not everyone learns exactly the same, and in my experience, reading the dungeon journal or even watching a guide is not a great substitute for putting in reps on a boss. Well, putting in reps on a boss is more or less discouraged nowadays, especially with how M+ is set up as it's interpreted as wasting other people's time. Couple this with the fact that guilds are half the time substituted by outside the game online communities (such as discord) and applications for guilds are far more commonplace, it is entirely possible that you walk the lands of Azeroth completely and utterly alone with no one willing to take a chance on you.
Agree with this entirely. There absolutely should be the ability to fail in dungeons - I remember many fails in Cats and BC. But the cost of failure for Mythic+ is prohibitive. Not timing a key is seen as absolute failure by the vast majority of players. Not only that, but encounter knowledge required is high. There are lots of interrupts needed but many spells cast just there to eat your interrupt, very specific and unintuitive strategies for pulling, and crazy affixes that make certain dungeons become unbearable
@@ynas1414 More a point of reference. From watching hundreds of matches waiting for my turn, I can tell you the win rate on some matches like Hexos was incredibly low from what I saw. Possibly only around 1 out of 10. But really, it's less a comment on the difficulty in absolute and more generally that I'm a veteran in solo content, what little there is catered to a challenging level in WoW. Also, this was a while back, I might have just felt insecure that day I don't know. Have a good day!
I stopped doing Mythic+ Healing is just way too stressful!! Trying to keep people alive with affixes that keep punishing a healer class constantly isn't fun, While dps just needs to damage and move from mechanics. They have made healing punishing and just too stressful to have fun in M+
The main problem are the keys are over tuned and there’s a meta comp associate with keys so only a few players are ideal and that gets amped by IO rating pretty much need your own friends and they need to be decent. Players
As a 2500 player, meta-comp is the last thing on my mind when forming my own group. The only thing I'll really consider maybe is having a brez or not, and many classes bring that. By over-tuned do you mean the gear rewards are too weak for what is required? I'm not sure... between valor upgrades and vault, much of my best gear has come from M+. If it's too difficult, just do a lower difficulty.
Yeah, having to deal with other players in an inherently stressful environment pretty much sums up why I have no interest in M+, especially with strangers. If M+ had no timer I think I'd be more willing to jump into them. There's already an indirect pass/fail mechanic for upgrading keys based on how many times group members have died, I think that could handle key upgrades by itself with no need for a stress-inducing timer.
As a player that play wow on/off since vanilla (resto druid) i consider myself a casual player, but in Dragonflight I decided to try mythic+ for the first time... and I'm having a blast. My advice, or tactic, that I use to battle the anxiety of even starting M+ (I was very anxious about entering mythic, especially as healer) is to play the mythic+2 key over and over again until you build up confidence and some gear. The +2 is difficult only at the start, but quickly becomes like a heroic dungeon once you gear up or just know where not to stand. I have specifically said to myself I want to finish every +2 dungeon on +++ rating until I enter +3 dungeons and so on. This slow approach helped me greatly in building the confidence and experience I needed to push higher keys. Now, After 3 weeks I'm entering +5 fairly confidently. Give it a try.
Don’t be ashamed if you don’t have perfect gear and finished all the end game stuff. Enjoy the game! Week by week as you gear up you will naturally build to higher keys. It feels great running a key you couldn’t do last week but can do this week !
Pretty much pointed out all the reasons im skeptical about doing keys majority of the time, i was doing low keys like 3-4 and people were like why are you here you should be doing higher keys and im not eh...really? should i tho? Had no confidence in moving forward cause i didnt want to ruin anyones key or time
I think M+ would be a lot less stressful for new players (and even veterans alike) if it didn't have a timer. For many it's a lot of pressure to have the clock ticking and not being able to afford failure.
Why even have the mode at all then? Thats the whole point. Dungeons arent supposed to play like a raid. They are supposed to be fast paced. I think that people put too much stock in needing to time it. If you arent able to time the key you are running, normally it just means you arent ready to go any higher. And thats fine.
The problem is the pass/fail mechanic of timing Speed runs as content have been tried for years but frankly that’s not how a lot of people like their dungeon content. Going in blind and learning as you go is huge fun and now it’s just a job you have to do to get ready for Speedruns.
@@ThaDarkSaviorgood idea, we actually should fully remove this dog shit system. Raid or die. Brain rotten ass idiots who have fully succumbed to their adhd actually think speed running dungeons is content LOL
I really want to hear your thoughts on this topic. Obviously I'm not claiming to be god of M+ or stating anyone who's nervous is bad. I just wanted to take a stab at why Mythic Plus seems to be the most feared end game content when you visit forums. Think I'm wrong or have your own thoughts/opinions? Let us know! Also apologies if I sound nasally in this one, just coming out the other side of a cold. Thanks for watching!
there is fear because the difficulty spike is too much from only doings 9's to doing 10's and upper sometimes for people. If you do lower keys the difficulty really isnt there where people have to learn what to interrupt or do ; so once they try out a higher difficulty key and see the large amount of difficulty spikes it makes them not to want to try it again. Btw this is from someone who did a +12 temple earlier today where we had to explain to the healer that he has to dispel the dot from the last boss in which they argued with us they he couldn't dispel it as a priest...
I'd argue it's mostly about just having a solid foundation for a group. WOW as a whole is at it's best when you have friends. When playing solo and joining other solo players, it's just a groups of "dudes" tolerating one another. It's way easier to then just blame others for their shortcomings or ignore your own. Or get into a mindset of "if this group doesn't work I'll just find another." They then leave and you can't can't complete the dungeon for pity gear. Cause even when you fail a dungeon you still get loot, it's just a slightly lower ilvl. You also have to factor in that the average WOW player isn't very good. A lot of them are stingy with cooldowns/defensives or don't know what some of their buttons do or when to use them. So a decent bit of these people just get skill checked by not interrupting cast bars or knowing it's ok to use cd's on trash.
I agree with your sentiments, but I do think that #3 Accountability is probably 90% of it. Most of the people that don't want to do M+ are very afraid of being the reason for a bad run.
I’ve played the game for 16 years. Just started M+ at the start of this xpac and I’m pushing 19s. Finding a quality guild makes it so much easier. Pugging is a nightmare. The biggest frustration I have is people not asking questions when they wipe the group and instead of trying to improve the just leave. Or a toxic tank love me a toxic entitled tank lol.
I managed to clear in time +15 RLP with random people and it was most stressful 30 minutes ever just hoping everything goes right... worst thing is the sight that tank and healer died on last boss with 7% of health remaining on tyrannical and no crs available. Probably if I wasn't warlock and my pet hadn't taunt, I'd be dead like everyone else but somehow managed to finish it
The issue i have with mythic is the time, theres no chance to really improve or co-ordinate mid run it just run back start fighting again asap and hope to get it right this time. Ive seen people leave for lusting at the wrong boss or time, not following the exact route they know to go, too much trash, too little, a single wipe or any number of mechanics not done just right most of which can be helped by allowing room to call targets, cc packs or lay out a basic strat for a boss. I appreciate speed is a skill as to not mess up at speed should be rewarded but that holds new and rising players back who want to experience the mechanics to learn ,because reading something doesn't compare to when it happens to you. Personally id at least get rid of the timer before all affixes are being used because at that point people will generally be familiar with the dungeons and mechanics and have run them with a chance to learn rather than just rush as fast as possible. That or make the dungeons harder requiring target calls and long cc and let the timer reward the high end keys with a title or something (top 500 style)
i wish i had a solid group of guys to play with. ive pugged 2k raider io and higher from legion to now, its so goddamn frustrating when people quit after a couple wipes or a bricked key. i wish i could find a discord of people who have had same experience as me
I do M+ but I also arena, raid, and everything inbetween. But M+ needs more rewards besides just RNG loot and a mount. They should add dungeon themed transmogs for doing high keys
I don’t know if it’s just too early in the expansion to judge (as it’s my first opening expansion) but M+ in Dragonflight (DF) is a bit more intimidating than in Shadowlands (SL). For someone that reached +15-17 at the end of SL, I’m still struggling at +10-12 in DF.
Just like what you said, it is the amount of learning you need to do. At higher keys, you need to know not only what each boss does but also what each trash pack does. It's too much homework for me. I want to play a game, not working on a second job.
While doing keys with pugs is inevitable I highly recommend joining a guild! Be active, help people with their lower keys and they'll remember about you when they're doing higher keys, join discord and talk - communication is super important in higher keys! I know that doesn't sound like a casual player's dream but this game is meant to be enjoyed with others!
I actually feel pressure playing m+ at high keys since i'm forced to play as a tank since i don't have guild or friends to play with (i play tank to dodge the infinite queues) so i totally understand why you made this video :) Just one question: i like your UI, is it a package or you made it by yourself?
Thank you! It's actually a profile from wag.io that I adjusted to fit my preferences. Import code if you'd like to try it: !E1!nwvxZTjmqW)qWmOVm2(ntAstMjPMXq6d9bLrgFgZucYJqjTP)67jcMyIXe)KnID1TA1EhsImvMKdvGrv6(7AT1QFowvbLY1sRm5z9RGP29QuTjFNQ2E1oDrgKQZZlbC1LXEpExSYavwp3dbE(uAOm56YxF8MNwPk2qEWThnqV)6Bs7bVzbUNpJWAOSi6jImjAzA6Yh(ay7ZbE8dGODGC15t4i8zEc2XsG1kH3b0u0t51QfkF6bQPktoy7XD1DF)2Hi)(6(IqHhluCydIlvVbMRqxBTY0BFo5W5ZeCpMi8WjKn6jmG5nTdQyehtGw2pHDfzLW9G6vi6f8cUAecu2SJDo6Po3W2MiiO7uRm23(YlDYm31okVFPRGfRlklSVDwDrymuzCxk0cpNAuz)gmxO0WcrrTLSRyRDr0ihDcPl3g)PR9ZU7IWPEmsxI5gD2l1deygoTWMs9yZWS8c8DQBb1MUdfAtFIz3k(HyddNrDMHU0wS)cOWPOBleb9t2dfmhtVcSYS22dm3nzSiQF)UW37e63cmeRMUG2giSeHxKSWkHrJvf57WPtQHAyhMiVzGYF3dMcOkdIuh5(NmvdHgPRR)IgiFcZ1df23Op7GKZOloZJJ7bo)ntxHKSXQCOwIHxvMTqxHxAntRvgM7xm8SUe2GtStw3iVA5pio2iGjhdiQdqmywP)J8htoIIOLcDykFaO5RgDRo7W)tk(hGGcArj6HIEsPj0(eNCqYHNR(CeGZtW7yhK9UptfHJc2y07LjU(XgaY5Z3B0BlkH5Z)gSv9sP9)
Nice video. I'm a slow io-pusher, kinda forced into playing tank or healer just to not wait around. I kinda share the feeling you express here. A completed key, that is not timed should not be punishing, but just awards another key of the same ilvl. Regarding toxicity: i think one should never be an asshole with others. Still, I get a little frustrate if in a +10 my group members do not clear thundering stacks, constantly die to frontals or do not interrupt. My enjoyment of a key changes so much, if everyone tries to play decently (i but that i don't mean high dmg, but just doing mechanics well) Regarding the group finder, i'd love a filter for key lvl. Just show me all say the 6-9 keys. My routine in M+, when not using my own key (which i recommend for dps), is to always do the dungeon with the lowest score. This way i increase my io, and i always have an io slightly higher than expected. If your own key gets pushed +3 because you invited a strong group, i often downgrade it a little. Just in line with my current score.
There is a way to filter dungeons... If u want for exampls keys 15-17 just type 16 in the filter. If you want keys between 12-14 just simply type 13, then every Key +-1 of what you types in the search bar will show. Is this not common knowlage? Allso if u wanna do a nokhud in a specific level, just type nokhud 7 for exampls, then all nokhud 6-8 will show @sebastiangrandis545
to be honest i dont see too much open toxicity during keys. its the leavers that are the major problem. blizz just needs to add harsh penalties for leaving early. you can leave it the key goes past the timer a certain %, but not before i have found that asking people to stay for the whole run at the start tends to help in most cases though. i think people feel better about staying if they know someone need something specific from the end chest. and the ones that might have not stayed just end up leaving then and there, so you save yourself the wasted time
I only recently started playing wow about a month back im only a 1500 raider io so far and have been mostly doing 11s through 13s but ive been very fortunate and havnt ran across too many super sweaty people. Pugged all of my mythic plus runs so far and its honestly been super fun and I really like the mythic plus system
1. You need to know all mechanics of all enemies in all dungeons in advance 2. You need to have a bunch of addons and WAs 3. A sheer endless amount of toxicity
It needs one thing to make it better, RMDF: Random Mythic Dungeon Finder. Trying to find a group is the most annoying part. Take the logistics out of the game and there's no problem. Make a min item level for 0-5, 5-10, and so on, easy, done.
It could work as a stop gap to the current system but I think you'd get an INSANE amount of leavers if you mess up a pull and they knew they could get another group within 5 mins
Or have skill based matchmaking with scaling rewards. Call of Duty figured out how to pair bads with bads, why can’t wow? As you get better, you get paired with better players and you get better gear. If Raiderio can track a score, WoW can too.
It's the rush. The timer freaks me out. I don't want to have that feeling of, if you don't do this this way, you're not gonna make it. It spills over to heroic and normal also. I don't know all shortcuts because I havn't been there much. I started in TBC where you had to CC half the trash pack to be able to down it. Now half the instance gets pulled in the first 30 sec. Thankfully I can get gear in outdoors and LFR, that's enough for me.
Funnily enough I love the timer. But I'm very competitive so a race against the clock is fun. My partner HATES timers so she's always stressed as hell. Maybe they should bring in a non timed version lol.
M+ is really fun with friends who are good. Peak experience for me is just having 1/2 dps pugs because ALL they really have to do is dps well. As if you know how to tank/heal that's all the REALLY heavy stuff taken care of right there with pathing and pull management. It's quite shocking how bad an average WOW player is, so it's super easy to get picky with who you let in. As someone who can't be bothered to learn their rotation can slow you down enough to cause a timeout. Spending half an hour or so trying to clear a dungeon and fail right at the end is extremely disheartening. So it really just boils down to having friends/guildies who are decent or a willingness to wade through dice rolls on pugs.
Playing with a similar skill level group will make the world of difference for players. Learning at the same time as someone who's at the same level as you is a great and stress free experience... unless they're assholes.
I gave up years ago due to things like iLevel, GearScore, Raider IO, etc. There have even been times where people messaged me asking me to join and by that point just the idea of doing it caused burn out. I was burned out before I even set foot in mythic content. My 'hard core' days ended in Wrath. And any time people talk about their 'parse' my brain shuts down. 'Yo dude, what was your parse for that run' - Someone 'I have no idea what you just said and refuse to ever learn' - me.
There are a few things that need to change about the system to reduse the perceived difficulty. Stop down ranking keys when you fail to time or leave early. Thus only hurts 1 person in the group and it is often the person who started the group who gets screwed over here. Dungeons should drop 2 items at a minimum even if not timed. And a max of 4 for a +2 or better. This will lower the toxic nature of expecting turbo mode runs in lower keys. Add incentives for tanking and maybe healing. Like make the score go up faster for them. So players have a reason to do those role more then faster que. Or give them some currency bonus or tokens that you collect to trade in for specific gear. Something that can make the vastly more critical parts of the group be rewarded more to off set the hate you will get for when you screw up. And last but not least, lower the max level required for dungeons to cap loot rewards back to 15. 10 was for sure to low but 20 is to high. Dungeons really stop being fun around 17 when most stuff will one shot you.
Very interesting ideas, I would LOVE if they didn't downrank a key if the group abandons it. The majority of my keys are dropped due to leavers and not actually failing the key. I like the loot idea too. The quicker you complete it, the more loot you get, even if the extra loot locks out after a while, you'll still have more incentive to run lower keys that way. Great ideas overall.
I don’t think rewarding healers is going to make a difference. It’s an extremely demanding role that takes most of the blame for wipes. That’s not worth a bump in score or even an extra item when M+ is largely chill mode for DPS.
So, making the maximum level gear drop from +20s was a good change… its the best gear you can get in the game aside from killing the last raid boss on mythic. It shouldnt be easy to get and super attainable. The absolute best gear should be your reward for having mastered that content, to the point where you are actually able to complete a +20. Mythic raid is hard af too, thats why it drops crazy good gear. Why shouldnt dungeons be the same?
I tank 18, 19, and 20s in pugs. IO is currently 2500 range. I prefer to play with pugs and not guild members. Guild members get discouraged, and tilted. They like to throw in random bits of information during the run to show how much they know. They critique your decisions, regardless of whether or not you’re the more experienced player with a much higher score. You want to respect their input but at the same time you want to tell them to shut up and let you do the route and pulls you’re comfortable with. They don’t want to talk about the route beforehand or after either. Pugs might be rough, but they also place the run in my hands and let me do as I do. They don’t bitch either, and I don’t have to sit there in awkward silence when things go bad. I can just shake my head a bit and move on. Will I push the absolute highest keys 23+ in pugs? No, but I can get to 21’s and 22’s and I’m happy with that.
It’s entirely up to the affixes the week has. I have a 2067 io demon hunter, and I might do anywhere between 3-20 M+ dungeons per week with my guild. Like this upcoming week is spiteful quaking. That’s not bad. But doing say an 18 vault this week with bolstering terrifies me. Having the right party composition is massive as well
I feel like the skill and concentration gap between a 8 and +11. I personally have no problem with mechanics but a lot of people don’t interrupt, CC or maintain concentration to time it. One or two wipes coupled with 5 random deaths and you won’t time.
I tried mythic+ when it was new in Legion and I couldn’t grow on it. It was too stressful and the amount of toxicity in players it brings out is overwhelming. I stay away from mythic+. The demand for things such as raiderio or whatever is ridiculous. I remember when running dungeons was suppose to be fun, not an S.A.T. test.
It’s not ridiculous. People just want to make sure they bring players who have some idea of what’s happening so that they don’t waste their own time and keys. Some players are assholes as with anything. But expecting people to take a chance on you when there’s a dude right next to you on the signup sheet with better gear and m+ rating isn’t realistic.
My recommendations - get a nice playlist that either pumps your blood or soothes your soul. - get some weak auras - record your runs so you can see for yourself what you can improve - use those cooldowns, don't save them for "the perfect occasion." - /ignore literally anyone that has something negative to say
My guild basically told me that because I'm a clicker, and don't want to bind all my spells to keyboard keys, and because I play a Frost Mage I wouldn't do enough damage to do Mythic+. So they dont want me on Mythic+ or Raids, and I'm worried I'd get kicked with pug groups.
See you committed the cardinal sin of clicking. I think legally you have to uninstall the game now... for real though just play however you like and find a chill group that'll take you. They're out there, you just have to find them.
I stumbled across this video and started pondering my experiences with M+ dungeons. Not to really brag but I got KSM on every Shadowlands dungeon: Timing 15+ each and every one of Shadowlands dungeon, both Fortified and Tyrannical. The dungeons become more and more balanced with each season with less brutal numerical mechanics behind each boss that may or may not brick keys. With Dragonflight came, my interest in M+ dungeon became dwindling as it became harder to maximize rewards (because tbh, I use M+ as a means to an end to gear anyway and its reward ceiling for vault is 20) and harder to find like-minded people to run consistently with. What's worse is that ever since the shitshow of an expansion that is Shadowlands, it really broke my guild apart. Now in DF, my guild has roster problems and I pugged more and more M+ dungeons to the point I didn't feel like continuing since DPS is such a dime of dozen (and for some god-forsaken reason you can apply only 5 groups at a time??) and then when I do get into groups, there is no guarantee for success and started pondering why you're doing this activity with strangers. I could host my keys but it's a freaking double-edged sword. Not only I might get members that may leave for whatever the reasons may be with the lack of etiquette thereof to actually finish the dungeon so our time isn't completely wasted. BUT IT DOWNGRADES MY KEY. Because that inconsiderate jerk from Ragnaros (tbf, not completely red flag but a red flag and is a different can of worms) left the group for whatever reason from a lack of people not applying to your dungeon because whatever the reason may be. Not to mention, hosting keys and inviting different group of people takes work. I don't want to look up each player and see what they've done. I just want to bloody play with other players and tackle the dungeon successfully. Perhaps have some laughs from a potential misstep. That has become a very scarce commodity nowadays because me and my friends once had a huge laugh because I wiped a dungeon group FOR A GHOST IRON NODE. In M+ dungeon, especially in PUGs, you can't do that. I am currently unsubbed but with the return of the Trading Post, I might sub again to try it out. Who the heck knows if I get my feet wet back into M+ dungeons because I main a Demo Lock, a spec with insane scaling because of pets inherit your stats, surely I can do fine in the damage department in dungeons right? But on the other hand, I've seen a post where a Mage got invited into a group, asked if he was Frost and then kicked him afterwards... and my 2nd 70 is a Frost Mage.
Frost is in a really good place right now for M+ too, It's just a shame because Arcane is #1 so the more elitist players won't even entertain anything else.
I would love to get into M+ but 1. I don't have any friends that play or any group to do them with. 2. I don't play the specs that people want for them. 3. I haven't done anything serious in WoW since the beginning of Legion, I'm not sure if I could keep an interest long enough to go far with keys.
Well it’s intense. It’s like swimming with the sharks. No one is your friend in a mythic+. Wow is a dog eat dog world where everyone is out for themselves, because the entire motivation of the game is to be better than every player. Any person who is better than you is someone you simultaneously want to use and will spit on if he makes just one mistake that could rob you of your success. Being an elitist and all powerful is the motive and fun of the game for many many people. Best thing to do is to find a group of friends to run mythic+. Wows player base has always leaned a bit more on the toxic side, as that’s the fun of the game for many people, but especially lately the game gives players a bit more tools to pull from to express their toxicity . The important thing to remember is wow is only a reflection of the dog eat dog world we live in, and unfortunately for many people who want to progress in a fun and friendly way will be shocked at how cut throat of a game it really is. But as long as you find a group of friends who you love to game with, you won’t run into these issues
I’d also like to say that knowledge of zones has a profound impact on enjoyment. Once you do a zone 10-20 times it becomes much easier to just chill. Furthermore, keep in mind that people take the most qualified players they believe they can get when forming a group.
A question to M+ 'ers out there! I heal M+ on level 14 keys as of now. I love it and people rarely die in my groups, if the groups know mechanics in general. I often clear keys at + or ++. However, I can't shift focus very well between healing and interrupting mobs with my brain thats affected by a burnout. I use a raid spec for powerful heals instead and my groups can get away with mistakes that way. What are your takes on this? How far up in difficulty is this viable, and do you think it's OK in general? Thanks!
I used to care about doing the absolute hardest content, building a guild or community, and devoting all my time to this game. Now, I get KSM and AOTC and I'm happy. I can pug my way to both with relative ease and don't have to deal with the toxic cesspool that is the community. I hit KSM without ever timing a 15, not that I didn't attempt them, something always typically bricked the key. Luckily the pug groups I was in were just in it for the finish. More and more, I find myself playing the game less and less. Maybe I'm getting older or maybe the game is getting worse. Who knows.
While the video is good in general, you kinda missed the most obvious thing - the timer itself. There are plenty of psychological research on anxiety casued by timed tasks. Many of them conclude that if the timer is just there, even if it's generous to the point it's impossible to fail the task if you just pay attention, this still can induce levels of stress in someone.
As someone who has pugged more this expansion than ever before, even doing higher keys than I’m used to, I can say that my overall experience has been very great. I don’t think I have met any toxic people at all. I am getting closer and closer to getting my KSM. I really recommend for anyone, if they want to get into m+ just create groups with your own keys. Getting into groups can be horribly discouraging, so why not give yourself some more power. If you do enough of these it will raise your score, making it easier to get into groups.
@@DrGeazy For me, the problem lied in that 1.8k → 2.1k, were people timing 15s think they know everything about the game and, because they saw a video stating that A. Vault timer is too short, they think 3 deaths = end of run and just vanish. Having a great time overall but, maaan, that 300 I.O range....
BFA was my first time getting super hardcore into WoW since Cataclysm (around that time irl responsibilities pulled me away from being anything but the most casual of casuals). The constant pressure to do M+ by my guild to maintain a flow potential item upgrades so we could progress during raid resets (despite having to run with pug groups because all our 5mans were full) and the toxicity of all the randoms I pugged with burnt me out on being "hardcore" faster than the release of the second raid tier. Between getting Mythic Uldir cleared (which didn't feel worth it after everything was done) and before the Battle of Dazar'alor came out, I ended up gquitting and playing the rest of the expansion as a LFR andy while farming out gold just to pay for a spot in Normal/Heroic raid pugs. Skipped SL and came back for Dragonflight. I love this expansion so far but, I still feel the stress from my experience back in BFA so much that I refuse to attempt M+ again.
another point is that there is no reasen to play low key if you a bit higher, that means every time you try the game you have to challange yourself to the maximum wich is very exhausting, im playing like 13 m+, sometimes i just want to log in let a video play on my second display and enjoy, no i have to run atleast 11 m+ to have anykind of progress, wich is a challange but with all affixs not a enjoyable experience, a challange can be fun but not on a workday after 8+ of work
I’m not the best m+ player. I play an off meta bear tank, I have timed +12 sbg. I don’t mind and appreciate if someone tells me how to improve, but when people flame the tank when a wipe happens with nothing constructive, it just sucks.
It's just rough at times, bc I need to do +16's and higher for them to be worthwhile, but dps spots are so gatekept that it's difficult to even get a group. And god forbid someone just bails halfway through.
for me M+ is scary to do cause you feel bad if you are the cause of the fail of a key or a timed run. People are known to leave a group if even one person dies. I also think DPs getting into a M+ group to start with can be difficult
In reality I rarely ever come across toxic ppl in mplus. All the random groups are mostly chill ppl. When you start getting into higher mplus keys like 16’s and above is when you start seeing elitist ppl even then they aren’t in every group.
Weirdly enough I've had less issues 15+ and more issues with 7 - 10s. A lot of players thinking they should only take meta classes to do a +8. Toxic wise tho, I feel if you know what you're doing people are chill for the most part.
True and the most vocal.players in pugs tend to be the ones that dont kick, use def cds or stun anything. Its also quite common to vent on the healer if the dps dies even if its a oneshot :) but compared to others games the community is pretty chill
@@Jaggro yeah I haven’t pugged many lower end keys, my buddies was on more at the start so it kept me out of pugging the first few weeks. I get what you’re saying though, I noticed that in shadowlands a lot with lower keys. The guy that’s blaming you for dying to a casted ability by a dangerous mob, is also the guy who hasn’t kicked a single ability in the key.
I see the opposite where anything below a 15 has toxic players. Bad players breed toxicity. Higher keys everyone is aware that people make mistakes and 1 mistake can cost a key. This isn't the same as bad players in lower keys who don't even have interrupt on their action bar who start blaming the healer for wipes.
My 16 this week had a mage doing less damage then me(as a Blood DK who focuses survival not damage), and not doing any of the mechanics. He had 1800 score. Despite realizing with such low damage we would not time the key, the entire group carried on, just occasionally begging the mage to do mechanics at least. We finished, and I got the trinket I've been farming for weeks plus some score. Not every group is toxic. And not every group disbands over failures. I have found that 5 and lower keys tend to have people being more chill. That's a good place to start and find confidence and maybe even some friends. Let people know you are new before key starts. You will often find them reassuring you, and even helping with advice and encouragement when you mess up. Around 10-13 is where the most toxic players are right now. 16 and up you can still find clueless players, but the groups are more likely to push through and finish. We want those reagents for 418 crafted gear. Which you get one every finished dungeon. Need 10 per piece.
had a friend experience a +2 where they had a weapon with the wrong stat for feral druid. was halfway into december and the tank,healer,dps jumped down their throat about it. they didnt notice the wrong stat just the epic,upgrade ilvl and excited to replace the blue.. but still being toxic for a low lvl mythic and 1 item is rather hilarious
I just got into m+ for the first time after stepping away from wow for a few years. Healing currently. I've just taken things really slowly, not going over +5 or so until I firmly understand the dungeon's mechanics. As long as I'm squared away, I don't care what else happens. I'll never disparage anyone for messing up -- it's just a game and I don't actually care what happens. Hurting someone over a video game is really messed up.
you won't learn the dungeon mechanics on +5 keys. Whatever works there won't work on higher keys. If you want to really improve, you need to be doing at least +10s
the problem with m+ and what will always be a problem is that you need 3 roles (tank,healer, lust) and the rest can be filled randomly. that makes it a 40% chance for you even to be able to make a group. The game will need more classes that can do tanking/healing and lust needs to become activable via drums. Instead of making a god damn new class they should be adding more specs for current classes and untill they do that the community will keep staying divided. Also you should never have a key be lowered, no matter what you should be able to just restart the key at the same time. Main reason for this is because not everyone has time to fail a key and then try to get it again same dungeon at the same level as before. To fix this is very simple just make so as long you have done the key at a certain level you will be able to get that key for that dungeon at 1 higher. This way you will be able to target certain dungeons you need to get higher on with ease instead of continously rerolling your key untill you get the one you want. All of the roadblock that are currently up makes the game add up HOURS to just getting 4-10 more io score, its not FUN its annyoing. I rather wipe 100 time on the same god damn boss on mythic prog then to do m+ to gain score, because at least at prog we are always making some progress when it comes to muscle memory. And to the fuckers who say "just start your own key" ok ye go ahead you first do that on one of the least played classes as dps, lets say ret paladin and see how fast you can achieve 2k rio. Let me give you a hint it wont happen. The only time you can start your own keys without sitting in a menu waiting for just as desperate players as ones self is when you bring one of the 3 key roles. doesnt matter if you are 2/3 dps as long you dont bring an optimal group people will look to other groups other than yours. Btw how you said no timing a key is no a big deal around 6:45 is very inaccurate. We are not in the 2000s, we want our time to be valued and not wasted, if fail a key you have at least spent 10-20 mins, and this doesnt count in the time you spent looking/making the group. The whole problem with M+ is very simple, IT TAKE TOO MUCH TIME! And this will make everyone be negetive to any sort of fail or relaxation in m+, its built in a awful way.
How to improve your Live-Style as a casual player - That video was amazing! Knowledge is Key, having fun on a Video-Game is unpayable. Try out new things, learn routings for yourselves - The majority of Player who do Mythic + actually don't care if they finish it with special routings. Just play and learn from your own mistakes. Thats what I did in Season 4 of Shadowlands - And its what I do in Season 1 Dragonflight.
Yes! I'm casual and have been trying to get started on this system with no idea what it's all about. Honestly, I thought I was doing something wrong to find groups...But apparently that's everyone's experience. Why is there no group finder for M+??? The only thing I care about is getting the M+ mount and getting transmogs.
Idk I somewhat agree, I’m new to wow (started playin at release of dragonflight around 2-3 months ago) and started doing m+ last month, within that month without doing a single of my own key I’ve been able to climb to 2600io (and still climbing) I feel like people do accept you, just gotta try and min max gear as much as possible through either raiding/vault and boost m+ score every week by spreading the amount/level of keys through all 8 dungeons
mistakes happen but if your consistently messing up and bricking keys god forbid other ppls keys, nows the time to start doin some home work or stickin to ur own keys
Exactly, as much as people want to just float through the content, there comes a point you HAVE to learn. If you don't want to do that, fair enough, but don't drag others down because you're not willing to put in the effort.
My anxiety kicked in just watching the video.
Shhh shh, it's ok. This is a safe space. The 2000+ rated hunters can't get you here.
Lmao! I made it halfway through the first point, but as soon as he said I could start my own group I had to pause and concentrate on breathing.
People have gotten burnt one to many times, all it takes is a mistake or two and some random to yell(or in most cases type in all cap)and it just kill's all motivation to keep trying. Add to the fact M+ is mostly speed running with less room for error and an even bigger emphasis on meta gameplay, it's just not fun and can be pretty damn stressful.
I'd be lying if I said I was never frustrated with people who don't know tactics/how to play their class well. Definitely no need to be overtly rude about it though.
Thing is, it rly scares new players away.
A friend of mine bought the game, grinded and ran m+. (so we could play together)
He used guides and is an overall "i dont wanna waste anyones time" type player.
Yet if you do anything for the first few times, you do mistakes. aint no way around.
Still you get smashed, insulted, told to end it & told to go play tetris or anything..
He literally stopped playing, saying that there is no fun in stressfull speedruns where u get insulted and trashed for stuff u sometimes didnt even do wrong. Your fault your m+ rating is below 2k
Also it's so long grind to get anything decent for your investment. You need to grind decent stats to get into high keys and then grind even more to have a shot to win anything long term useful.
You can get booted for not even messing up.
I think it’s mostly that Blizz has a system that punishes you for leavers but doesn’t punish the actual person leaving. As a dps this can be incredibly punishing and discouraging when it can take nearly an hour to fill a group and just listing one locks you out of virtually all other instanced content. You literally have to sit and wait around then hope that people who join aren’t assholes. Meanwhile they are almost incentivized to brick your key at first sign of trouble since they have zero repercussions and value their time too
People don't seem to understand that M+ is designed for maximum toxicity. Every design point in the entire system is intended to increase toxicity.
@@willythemailboy2 Being toxic is a character flaw and has nothing to do with game design.
It's not the game. It's you
@@maartenneppelenbroek The game design actively attracts and encourages toxic players.
@@coler2277 Don't see how it could be, as I haven't ran an M+ since Legion.
I've had people want to kick me from a group I created for my key -- because I wasn't playing a meta class/spec. I laughed and dropped the group. Ran it successfully with some others.
I have a little rant as a healer new to M+. what spooks me most about M+ is all the extra challenges.
When ever I start to push keys a little these extra challenges like having to run away from ghosts, making sure I don't spell lock my healing but also needing to make sure my needed healing goes out in those moments.
As a healer I already have so much to keep track of.
I can do it, but in terms of mechanics having to worry about the base instance mechanics, the challenge mechanics, healing and still be expected to DPS as much as I can when I have the time is just very overwhelming and I can feel my performance start to tank from the anxiety.
Like oh 2 dps died because my instant casts were on CD and I had to run from a ghost because my cc was on CD from the last ghost.
The fact that "people just die" in keystones is a common thing just crushes my spirit as a healer, it makes me feel like I am doing something wrong even if I am playing to the most I can on my class and technically didn't mess up majorly.
Like I can do all this stuff, but the fact I have to do so much at once and under a time limit makes me feel like I am not doing any of them to the fullest I know I can do them at.
And that is a horrible feeling.
I feel your pain and also as mainly dps (I have an alt priest I made for healing specifically) I must say that there are many times during those hectic times the DPS SHOULD USE CDs and not expect the healer to just heal through everything. So many times I've seen ppl blame the healer while propably their defensives are not on cd. I play warlock so I'm a bit tankier maybe but still I pop HS when needed and Dark Pact..or even the Unending Resolve if I feel like it's gonna make the life of healer so much easier and less stressfull at times.
Biggest problem is dps just want to faceroll and not do anything for self preservation, like paladins that wont use brez or shadow priests that wont self heal.
Same thing happens in raids, defensives,...whats that?
@@blacksabbathmatters It's gone on for a long time lol literally goes back as far as vanilla I'd say. I noticed in pvp during Cata that players couldn't comprehend using defensive abilities or CCs or even use a heal on a player nearby and it gets even worse in dungeons since they go in with the mindset of "oh its not my job to heal is it?" like they don't comprehend something *could* go wrong in a dungeon and it'd fall on the remaining group to pick it up. Enhancement Shaman made this easy since you could fulfill all the roles essentially.
DPS getting murdered by mechanics is sometimes not your fault and you shouldn’t stress about it.
Because of the community. It's wild that so many players (now into their 30s) absolutely REFUSE to get along with one another. It's super embarrassing, incredibly immature and keeps people away from playing content like m+, where this behavior really shines through. PvP participation is way down and m+ is down - the two areas where people act like complete fools to each other.
m+ is not way down lol theres always keys being ran
@@kinect2779 check wowhead. Blizzard released their own data showing it was down. Down doesn't mean it's dead. Relax fanboi 😂
Was gonna say something very similar, but I'll just agree and give you a like!
It's all because of the 'speed runner' timer being the main focus and not having a creative instance where you have to 'think' your way through it. No timer also means no loss of key and at worst you are only trading time which you do anyway by simply logging in to play this game. The whole design of mythic dungeons in its current state is just garbage. If you want to speed run games, join the plethora of communities out there dedicated to doing this on all kinds of different games. Speed running does not belong in an RPG.
@@SilentKME oh no random narwhal called me fan boy cause keys are still being ran daily xD get a grip
I kinda have the same problem when starting in M+. Finding the group. But now I joined the No Pressure (or Low Pressure, and Zero Pressure) community on WoW EU. Lots of groups going. And a very chill environment.
As a high end mythic raider and m+ player I can say that most of the groups are afraid of failers so they tent to pick players far above whats required to make it easier. People are also not very committed so they leave quick, easily triggered by everything and avoid any kind of voice chat which makes it impossible to build a coordinated random group to push M+ dungeons.
I'm amazed at the people who can do 20s without voice chat tbh. I'm definitely the type who needs to communicate.
@@Jaggro If you are lucky and the dungeon is easy than you can make it intime but above +20 in a fairly hard dungeon = no chance
@@dutyofcall7659 That's not true, its hard yeah, but people pug & time keys above 20 without voice chat all the time. Happened a lot throughout SL. But it is easier after the dungeons have been out a while and the routes/strats have been refined down.
@@bst857 Sure it happens but very rarely and only after intense grinding which wastes big amounts of time. Playing a coordinated group with voice makes it much easier.
@@dutyofcall7659 I'm 2889 io, I've pugged my way to 22's and it's difficult but usually players at this rating/skill level know what they're doing. It's just a matter of having some sort of communication, like assigning kicks for marked mobs is a great and simple way of handling most things in keys. 23 is where pugging becomes nearly impossible, except for SBG and CoS.
I would say getting to dungeons is much easier than raiding. In dungeons you can gradually increase your raideio scores. But in raiding no one will let you in on normal because you haven't defeat 8/8.
I definitely think it's easier to get an invite to a dungeon group than a raid group for sure. Raid groups (outside mythic) have just been a lot more chill in my experience.
Its is, but in case of dungeons, you gotta make through the ocean of saltiness and toxic crybabys.
Oh and dont forget the leavers, if one of ur DD dies it's time to alt+f4. What we still got 20min in this key? I dont care.
Also good time to alt + f4 when u stand in AOE and get like a 500k 1 shot. Fucking useless healer cant even outheal an ability supposedto delete me.. 1k bots...
What bothers me so much about mythic plus (as they are my fav part of the game), is that Blizz made them so unforgiving with interrupt mechanics this season. You pretty much have to have coms in keys 18+ just for the kick and CD rotation. It's so much harder this season that you really need a steady 5 man team to exclusively run with while learning mechanics and getting used to tanking & healing habits in said keys. For instance, both of my guild's main 2 tanks run almost exclusively with their own groups. Luckily I tank more in M+ than I dps, however I have to pug keys on my main raid DPS... and it's just been a nightmare. So much more this season than any I can remember. Good players seem to stick together as it seems they are extremely hard to find in pugs, and it's just frustrating for someone who basically needs to run keys just to keep competing in raid.
I've had experiences with extremely toxic players calling out the lesser experience pugs to a degree they just straight up leave the group. I've had pugs get to a final boss of the key, ask for a bathroom break, come back just to leave the key. I've had players with 0 interrupts legitimately thinking other players are the problem (since they have a whopping 2k overall damage more than the ones interrupting.)
In closing, maybe I'm just jealous of the 5 man teams able to reliably run together 3-4 nights a week like clockwork while pushing content.
It's definitely apparent how overtuned the dungeons are as the weeks go on and the nerfs come in. As for forming your own groups, it is definitely the way to play if you want to get the most out of keys.
@@Jaggro Not fully sure about overtuning thing though. You absolutely can do 20+ without coms full pug and idk.. feeling like the challenge rating is okay? Currently at 404 ilvl, so probs going to be able to get to 24/25+ as my gear and experience gets better.
Now my "fear" is... If they nerf the content, what's the point really? Also, if someone's max is +12, why is it a problem? It's not overtuned dungeon, it's that their skill is at +12 level. Maybe I'm missing something, but things seem quite fine rn?
It’s very hard for me to believe that you’re a new TH-camr. You definitely have the personality and voice man. Well done
Thats very kind of you to say. Thank you!
As someone that went from playing Classic (first on Private servers, then blizzard's version from vanilla up to current wrath) into playing high M+ starting in Shadowlands, i can tell you the main "problem" classic players will encounter. I'll speak from my main perspective, that being of a healer (Discipline priest being my main, but i dabble also in Holy paladin and Resto shaman)
A) it's a complete shift in mentality... in Classic you're acustomed to having your spells, on them there is a little blurb that tells what the spells does, and you use it.
In retail, as a healer, if you go into a dungeon and start using your spells to heal, you're gonna barely massage your party's HP bars and barely heal the damage. Instead you need to learn what your passives do, the fact that X spell empowers Y spell, and that they both receive an additional effect by spell Z (for example Resto shaman's Unleash life + riptide stacking into cloudburst totem..which is the bread and butter of most shaman pulls, yet its not as easy to understand as simply reading what 1 spell does)
B) way more to keep track of. Just check the footage of any M+ key above 7-8, then compare it to any scenario from vanilla to wrath. The amount of actions required by any player per second are not even comparable.
From my experience, as someone that has a lot of time spent in "classic" versions of the game, most classic players don't "really" want to have a super challenging time. There is a reason why now that Ulduar is out many want to go back in Molten Core and Blackwing lair. Guilds went from chilling in discord bullshitting and joking with each other and occasionally focusing on a boss fight, to having to do constant callouts + listening to the raid leader without interrupting; and personally i see nothing wrong with either, i adore both versions of the game..but it just isnt the socially focused-chill experience that most classic players want (it's also why i think there is the HC craze now..it's a way to still enjoy the super casual and chill game that is vanilla WoW, while at the same time making it interesting)
That atmosphere is the complete anthithesis of Mythic +, in which every single run is 20-30 minutes of hyper focus on mechanics and nothing else, especially in pugs.
This is actually a very interesting perspective.
I've been maining a variety of tanks for years and don't have as many of the problems as described because being the "leader" of the group, forming my own keys and being familiar with the mechanics is just second nature to me. I've been making my own routes for years while playing healers and dps alts or offspecs to keep an eye on what other tanks do and what I can do better so I don't become stagnant in my tanking abilities.
I had a conversation with a friend the other day about his perspective as an off-meta healer and difficulties of getting into groups, doing keys etc, and I suppose from lucky coincidence this video and that conversation inspire me to create some sort of "guide" to a more pleasant pugging experience. We'll see if I get anything done lmao
Edit a month later: i did not get anything done
I used to do almost nothing on m+, and was afraid of a 6+ key or higher, and the tip to pass through the fear of doing m+ is exactly doing it and failing a lot of times, and don't be afraid of higher keys, just queue up and do it, at the first ones you probably going to suck, but you get used to doing it as long as you queue up and complete the keys, it does not matter if you time it or not.
Another thing that help me with this fear was to do the keys with some friends, it's not that hard to make friends to play with you on the m+ queues, a lot of people especially in lower keys are trying to learn themselves to, so group up and chill hehe
My advice for casuals is run low keys first. Don't bite off more than you can chew. Low keys are eons less toxic and you can learn by doing instead of reading guides. If it's too easy increase a level or two. If it's still tough play a few more low keys until you feel like you get the mechanics right.
Great advice
"eons" low keys i where i typically find the most toxic people
In my experience, 15-20s are FAR less toxic than 10-14s, and about as toxic as 2-7s. People get *desperate* for that KSM achievement, and if they view you as inhibiting that goal will lash out. Once you are past that hump, each individual key matters a lot less.
Honestly it is a joy to block toxic people
The most basic reason is that too many people are reward driven and just want an easy way to loot and/or rating. This results to both people who quit if things go bellow their expected threshold as well as those who either either directly toxic or require too much from others.
All these are bypassed by doing M+ mainly with people you know from your guild, dedicated community, streamer communities etc.
Really loving the World of Warcraft content! Keep it up
Thank you kindly!
Nice video! Really loving the content. Something I thought about as I was watching the video (and something I've experienced for myself) is that, along with item level and raider io score, the type of class you play weighs heavily into the decision to get invited to a group. Don't have blood lust? Don't have a battle ress? You're class isn't optimal for the affixes? Sorry we'll take the bloodlust, ancestral guidance, shammy over your demon hunter that can...eye beam? Can get a bit frustrating, especially when the keys are lower than a 10 where those differences don't have too much of an impact on completing the key. Keep up the content. Already looking forward to the next video!
Didn't even think about mentioning the class Meta but you're 100% right. Sometimes playing the wrong class means getting completely locked out of content
I used to raid mythic, heroic before mythic was even a thing. I quit in Legion and have been casual ever since. I did +15s for the mount in Shadowlands s1 but after that I wasn't interested. Now, I just really appreciate having free time and not having to commit. I want to have the rewards, better gear etc, but I love not having a schedule or disappointing a group (or myself) when I can't make it.
I found this video looking for a "M+ for dummies" guide... It hits all the reasons I dodged Mythic dungeons until now. When you are being flamed for not knowing a Shortcut in a NORMAL dungeon run, one starts to wonder if you can get everything right when there is noone to explain it to you once you enter the instance.... What are the mechanics of each trashmob, how do I react if someone does not do X mechanic, As my RIO is 0 can I even queue as tank not knowing what to pull and not having a gauge on what I can survive at all, do I need to worry about consumables? flasks? foodbuffs? I have no idea how the enchant and socket meta works .... the list goes on and on if you are a true casual wanting to do SOME form of endgame.
wow such a great video, thank you soo much! As a sole mythic plus player this video was awesome and very accurate... Mythic plus is such a rush i love it.
I don't think it's always a matter of being scared. A lot of people have access to a group of friends to do mythic+ with. With no social repercussions for failure.
The issue, at least for me; Is that Mythic+ as a system doesn't belong in World of Warcraft (Though bear in mind that I say this with the sensibilities of an old man who's seen the game evolve over almost 20 years).
There are many factors to consider too. The overall experience, the kind of person it seeks to attract, the way it's implemented etc. etc. Seemingly always seem to crystallize into things I don't want in my RPG.
I like certain ELEMENTS of mythic+, and I feel that they do have a place in an RPG. Affixes, for instance are a great example of this.
But those elements have also been implemented in a really poor way by blizzard, and seem to be an ongoing topic of contention in the community. Like many deaths being completely unavoidable due to bad RNG and the fact that healers are supposed to do way too much at once that doesn't revolve around healing. in a high key, a person can die in the matter of a GCD because the healer was forced to do other shit to make it work. Again, that's an issue of poor implementation and bad design philosophy, separate to the system philosophy I spoke of first, but one of many major issues to say the least.
All of this is without taking into account many of the other things that are issues in WoW right now such as botting, boost-selling, LFG system etc. etc. that exacerbate and compound on any other issue the game also has.
I think that’s part of the issue letting someone know they messed up isn’t “toxic” depends on how you say it but I noticed a lot of people take any sort of criticism as toxic behavior
Little of column A; little of B
I think a little sensitivity to someone knowing they are making a mistake can go a long way
I’ve seen criticism being given in a positive way. And that happens so few times. It’s always someone malding like you were the catalyst to their villain arc
Unasked for criticism is just you being a know it all prick.
I've been avoiding Mythics for years simply because I don't even know what they are. Guildies talk about mythic keys and stones. Like what?!
I care little for ilvl so M+ is really not interesting to me.
But besides the players themselves, the biggest issue for me is simple: Raider IO.
I am simply not jumping through hoops for some 3rd party off brand skill points system
Funny enough you talked about listening to music while pugging a raid group. I did this when I was big into m+ in Dragonflight. I bulldozed through a +5 of Algethar in under half the time doing this. Music really helps I must say
My problem with the more recent design of mythic+ is that is overvalues aoe damage, CC really isn't a factor outside of aoe stuns and the affixes are needlessly punishing to the healers. Almost everyone I know that says they love mythic+ are dps players, it's very rare you'll find a tank or healer that claims they love pushing highly stressful key attempts.
Dragon Flight will be my first time I'll be achieving KSM. I've been playing WoW for years and group content doesn't bother me nor do toxic players which I've found in my pug experience are few. I record all of my m+ runs as a learning tool for myself but also new strats I've learned from other players. Advice I would give new players to M+ is do research on each dungeon and learn along the way by doing the content, start out small and work your way up the m+ ladder.
A good video! I learned a lot. Before Group Finder, we had to deal with all this aggravation for every dungeon, and I hated it. Still do now.
I was just thinking that; all the effort put into finding a group was and sometimes and didn’t work out was a normal thing in Burning Crusade for me. But it kind of worked out because I was in school and could do homework while waiting haha
As someone who has the original Amani War Bear, done mage tower, cakewalked through brawler's guild in every season, and have a generally okay concept of how to research a class to play it, I don't think I'm likely to ever group again. The overall attitude of players has changed so much and not for the better. Not everyone learns exactly the same, and in my experience, reading the dungeon journal or even watching a guide is not a great substitute for putting in reps on a boss. Well, putting in reps on a boss is more or less discouraged nowadays, especially with how M+ is set up as it's interpreted as wasting other people's time. Couple this with the fact that guilds are half the time substituted by outside the game online communities (such as discord) and applications for guilds are far more commonplace, it is entirely possible that you walk the lands of Azeroth completely and utterly alone with no one willing to take a chance on you.
Agree with this entirely. There absolutely should be the ability to fail in dungeons - I remember many fails in Cats and BC. But the cost of failure for Mythic+ is prohibitive. Not timing a key is seen as absolute failure by the vast majority of players.
Not only that, but encounter knowledge required is high. There are lots of interrupts needed but many spells cast just there to eat your interrupt, very specific and unintuitive strategies for pulling, and crazy affixes that make certain dungeons become unbearable
did you just flex with brawlers guild
@@ynas1414 More a point of reference. From watching hundreds of matches waiting for my turn, I can tell you the win rate on some matches like Hexos was incredibly low from what I saw. Possibly only around 1 out of 10. But really, it's less a comment on the difficulty in absolute and more generally that I'm a veteran in solo content, what little there is catered to a challenging level in WoW. Also, this was a while back, I might have just felt insecure that day I don't know. Have a good day!
I stopped doing Mythic+ Healing is just way too stressful!! Trying to keep people alive with affixes that keep punishing a healer class constantly isn't fun, While dps just needs to damage and move from mechanics.
They have made healing punishing and just too stressful to have fun in M+
Love Dragon Flight, I always do mythic and raids. So much fun 🤩
The main problem are the keys are over tuned and there’s a meta comp associate with keys so only a few players are ideal and that gets amped by IO rating pretty much need your own friends and they need to be decent. Players
The best case scenario definitely seems to be having your own group.
As a 2500 player, meta-comp is the last thing on my mind when forming my own group. The only thing I'll really consider maybe is having a brez or not, and many classes bring that.
By over-tuned do you mean the gear rewards are too weak for what is required? I'm not sure... between valor upgrades and vault, much of my best gear has come from M+. If it's too difficult, just do a lower difficulty.
Yeah, having to deal with other players in an inherently stressful environment pretty much sums up why I have no interest in M+, especially with strangers. If M+ had no timer I think I'd be more willing to jump into them. There's already an indirect pass/fail mechanic for upgrading keys based on how many times group members have died, I think that could handle key upgrades by itself with no need for a stress-inducing timer.
As a player that play wow on/off since vanilla (resto druid) i consider myself a casual player, but in Dragonflight I decided to try mythic+ for the first time... and I'm having a blast.
My advice, or tactic, that I use to battle the anxiety of even starting M+ (I was very anxious about entering mythic, especially as healer) is to play the mythic+2 key over and over again until you build up confidence and some gear. The +2 is difficult only at the start, but quickly becomes like a heroic dungeon once you gear up or just know where not to stand.
I have specifically said to myself I want to finish every +2 dungeon on +++ rating until I enter +3 dungeons and so on.
This slow approach helped me greatly in building the confidence and experience I needed to push higher keys.
Now, After 3 weeks I'm entering +5 fairly confidently.
Give it a try.
Very sound advice
Eventually you wont be able to +++ the keys just because gear doesnt continue to outscale the keys. What will your plan then be? :D
@@peterh.6953 Then it will be back to basics. Just to have fun :)
Don’t be ashamed if you don’t have perfect gear and finished all the end game stuff. Enjoy the game! Week by week as you gear up you will naturally build to higher keys. It feels great running a key you couldn’t do last week but can do this week !
Amen
Pretty much pointed out all the reasons im skeptical about doing keys majority of the time, i was doing low keys like 3-4 and people were like why are you here you should be doing higher keys and im not eh...really? should i tho? Had no confidence in moving forward cause i didnt want to ruin anyones key or time
Thank you for making this, highlighting a much bigger issue on all sides
Join a guild that has ppl willing to run lower keys , find people who are similar gear/skill and run with them . Running your own key helps a lot too
I think M+ would be a lot less stressful for new players (and even veterans alike) if it didn't have a timer. For many it's a lot of pressure to have the clock ticking and not being able to afford failure.
Why even have the mode at all then? Thats the whole point. Dungeons arent supposed to play like a raid. They are supposed to be fast paced.
I think that people put too much stock in needing to time it. If you arent able to time the key you are running, normally it just means you arent ready to go any higher. And thats fine.
The problem is the pass/fail mechanic of timing
Speed runs as content have been tried for years but frankly that’s not how a lot of people like their dungeon content. Going in blind and learning as you go is huge fun and now it’s just a job you have to do to get ready for Speedruns.
@@ThaDarkSaviorgood idea, we actually should fully remove this dog shit system.
Raid or die.
Brain rotten ass idiots who have fully succumbed to their adhd actually think speed running dungeons is content LOL
just started watching your channel, but would love more WoW vids! This one summed up a lot of my experiences in M+ (and others i'm sure).
Thank you kindly, I won't be exclusively WoW but there will always be WoW content for sure.
i did my first mythic +5 key today and i rly like listening to stuff like this, im getting over my anxiety and fear slowly
I really want to hear your thoughts on this topic.
Obviously I'm not claiming to be god of M+ or stating anyone who's nervous is bad. I just wanted to take a stab at why Mythic Plus seems to be the most feared end game content when you visit forums.
Think I'm wrong or have your own thoughts/opinions? Let us know!
Also apologies if I sound nasally in this one, just coming out the other side of a cold. Thanks for watching!
i think it's the same as pvp, the challenge is on another level in comparison to the other content
there is fear because the difficulty spike is too much from only doings 9's to doing 10's and upper sometimes for people. If you do lower keys the difficulty really isnt there where people have to learn what to interrupt or do ; so once they try out a higher difficulty key and see the large amount of difficulty spikes it makes them not to want to try it again. Btw this is from someone who did a +12 temple earlier today where we had to explain to the healer that he has to dispel the dot from the last boss in which they argued with us they he couldn't dispel it as a priest...
I'd argue it's mostly about just having a solid foundation for a group. WOW as a whole is at it's best when you have friends. When playing solo and joining other solo players, it's just a groups of "dudes" tolerating one another. It's way easier to then just blame others for their shortcomings or ignore your own. Or get into a mindset of "if this group doesn't work I'll just find another." They then leave and you can't can't complete the dungeon for pity gear. Cause even when you fail a dungeon you still get loot, it's just a slightly lower ilvl.
You also have to factor in that the average WOW player isn't very good. A lot of them are stingy with cooldowns/defensives or don't know what some of their buttons do or when to use them. So a decent bit of these people just get skill checked by not interrupting cast bars or knowing it's ok to use cd's on trash.
I agree with your sentiments, but I do think that #3 Accountability is probably 90% of it. Most of the people that don't want to do M+ are very afraid of being the reason for a bad run.
I’ve played the game for 16 years. Just started M+ at the start of this xpac and I’m pushing 19s. Finding a quality guild makes it so much easier. Pugging is a nightmare. The biggest frustration I have is people not asking questions when they wipe the group and instead of trying to improve the just leave. Or a toxic tank love me a toxic entitled tank lol.
Week 1: "You can just walk into 15s"
Week 4: "77 deaths in Ruby Life Pools"
Bro your not lieing, I hate that dungeon I spent 2 hours looking at different videos on TH-cam on how to perform better as a tank not easy.
You need a purge in there you need folks who can bait you need strong anti magic tank build like there’s niches that have to be met
I managed to clear in time +15 RLP with random people and it was most stressful 30 minutes ever just hoping everything goes right... worst thing is the sight that tank and healer died on last boss with 7% of health remaining on tyrannical and no crs available. Probably if I wasn't warlock and my pet hadn't taunt, I'd be dead like everyone else but somehow managed to finish it
@@skhaarl4952 tyrannical is just nightmare on 15 and above. Fucking worst time of my life in AV 16 tyrannical
"Ladder anxiety" as it was aptly termed by the starcraft playerbase. I think this is the same pretty much.
I didn't know that terminology existed. Thank you!
The issue i have with mythic is the time, theres no chance to really improve or co-ordinate mid run it just run back start fighting again asap and hope to get it right this time. Ive seen people leave for lusting at the wrong boss or time, not following the exact route they know to go, too much trash, too little, a single wipe or any number of mechanics not done just right most of which can be helped by allowing room to call targets, cc packs or lay out a basic strat for a boss. I appreciate speed is a skill as to not mess up at speed should be rewarded but that holds new and rising players back who want to experience the mechanics to learn ,because reading something doesn't compare to when it happens to you. Personally id at least get rid of the timer before all affixes are being used because at that point people will generally be familiar with the dungeons and mechanics and have run them with a chance to learn rather than just rush as fast as possible. That or make the dungeons harder requiring target calls and long cc and let the timer reward the high end keys with a title or something (top 500 style)
i wish i had a solid group of guys to play with. ive pugged 2k raider io and higher from legion to now, its so goddamn frustrating when people quit after a couple wipes or a bricked key. i wish i could find a discord of people who have had same experience as me
I do M+ but I also arena, raid, and everything inbetween. But M+ needs more rewards besides just RNG loot and a mount. They should add dungeon themed transmogs for doing high keys
That would be awesome. Like some kind of 1 time goal reward for every +5 levels.
I don’t know if it’s just too early in the expansion to judge (as it’s my first opening expansion) but M+ in Dragonflight (DF) is a bit more intimidating than in Shadowlands (SL). For someone that reached +15-17 at the end of SL, I’m still struggling at +10-12 in DF.
Just like what you said, it is the amount of learning you need to do.
At higher keys, you need to know not only what each boss does but also what each trash pack does. It's too much homework for me. I want to play a game, not working on a second job.
While doing keys with pugs is inevitable I highly recommend joining a guild! Be active, help people with their lower keys and they'll remember about you when they're doing higher keys, join discord and talk - communication is super important in higher keys! I know that doesn't sound like a casual player's dream but this game is meant to be enjoyed with others!
I actually feel pressure playing m+ at high keys since i'm forced to play as a tank since i don't have guild or friends to play with (i play tank to dodge the infinite queues) so i totally understand why you made this video :)
Just one question: i like your UI, is it a package or you made it by yourself?
Thank you! It's actually a profile from wag.io that I adjusted to fit my preferences.
Import code if you'd like to try it: !E1!nwvxZTjmqW)qWmOVm2(ntAstMjPMXq6d9bLrgFgZucYJqjTP)67jcMyIXe)KnID1TA1EhsImvMKdvGrv6(7AT1QFowvbLY1sRm5z9RGP29QuTjFNQ2E1oDrgKQZZlbC1LXEpExSYavwp3dbE(uAOm56YxF8MNwPk2qEWThnqV)6Bs7bVzbUNpJWAOSi6jImjAzA6Yh(ay7ZbE8dGODGC15t4i8zEc2XsG1kH3b0u0t51QfkF6bQPktoy7XD1DF)2Hi)(6(IqHhluCydIlvVbMRqxBTY0BFo5W5ZeCpMi8WjKn6jmG5nTdQyehtGw2pHDfzLW9G6vi6f8cUAecu2SJDo6Po3W2MiiO7uRm23(YlDYm31okVFPRGfRlklSVDwDrymuzCxk0cpNAuz)gmxO0WcrrTLSRyRDr0ihDcPl3g)PR9ZU7IWPEmsxI5gD2l1deygoTWMs9yZWS8c8DQBb1MUdfAtFIz3k(HyddNrDMHU0wS)cOWPOBleb9t2dfmhtVcSYS22dm3nzSiQF)UW37e63cmeRMUG2giSeHxKSWkHrJvf57WPtQHAyhMiVzGYF3dMcOkdIuh5(NmvdHgPRR)IgiFcZ1df23Op7GKZOloZJJ7bo)ntxHKSXQCOwIHxvMTqxHxAntRvgM7xm8SUe2GtStw3iVA5pio2iGjhdiQdqmywP)J8htoIIOLcDykFaO5RgDRo7W)tk(hGGcArj6HIEsPj0(eNCqYHNR(CeGZtW7yhK9UptfHJc2y07LjU(XgaY5Z3B0BlkH5Z)gSv9sP9)
Nice video. I'm a slow io-pusher, kinda forced into playing tank or healer just to not wait around. I kinda share the feeling you express here. A completed key, that is not timed should not be punishing, but just awards another key of the same ilvl.
Regarding toxicity: i think one should never be an asshole with others. Still, I get a little frustrate if in a +10 my group members do not clear thundering stacks, constantly die to frontals or do not interrupt. My enjoyment of a key changes so much, if everyone tries to play decently (i but that i don't mean high dmg, but just doing mechanics well)
Regarding the group finder, i'd love a filter for key lvl. Just show me all say the 6-9 keys.
My routine in M+, when not using my own key (which i recommend for dps), is to always do the dungeon with the lowest score. This way i increase my io, and i always have an io slightly higher than expected. If your own key gets pushed +3 because you invited a strong group, i often downgrade it a little. Just in line with my current score.
There is a way to filter dungeons... If u want for exampls keys 15-17 just type 16 in the filter.
If you want keys between 12-14 just simply type 13, then every Key +-1 of what you types in the search bar will show. Is this not common knowlage?
Allso if u wanna do a nokhud in a specific level, just type nokhud 7 for exampls, then all nokhud 6-8 will show
@sebastiangrandis545
to be honest i dont see too much open toxicity during keys. its the leavers that are the major problem. blizz just needs to add harsh penalties for leaving early. you can leave it the key goes past the timer a certain %, but not before
i have found that asking people to stay for the whole run at the start tends to help in most cases though. i think people feel better about staying if they know someone need something specific from the end chest. and the ones that might have not stayed just end up leaving then and there, so you save yourself the wasted time
There's definitely a big difference in player interaction below 10s and above 10s.
I only recently started playing wow about a month back im only a 1500 raider io so far and have been mostly doing 11s through 13s but ive been very fortunate and havnt ran across too many super sweaty people. Pugged all of my mythic plus runs so far and its honestly been super fun and I really like the mythic plus system
1. You need to know all mechanics of all enemies in all dungeons in advance
2. You need to have a bunch of addons and WAs
3. A sheer endless amount of toxicity
It needs one thing to make it better, RMDF: Random Mythic Dungeon Finder.
Trying to find a group is the most annoying part. Take the logistics out of the game and there's no problem. Make a min item level for 0-5, 5-10, and so on, easy, done.
It could work as a stop gap to the current system but I think you'd get an INSANE amount of leavers if you mess up a pull and they knew they could get another group within 5 mins
Or have skill based matchmaking with scaling rewards. Call of Duty figured out how to pair bads with bads, why can’t wow? As you get better, you get paired with better players and you get better gear. If Raiderio can track a score, WoW can too.
@@Jaggro 5 min + deserter buff
It's the rush. The timer freaks me out. I don't want to have that feeling of, if you don't do this this way, you're not gonna make it. It spills over to heroic and normal also. I don't know all shortcuts because I havn't been there much. I started in TBC where you had to CC half the trash pack to be able to down it. Now half the instance gets pulled in the first 30 sec. Thankfully I can get gear in outdoors and LFR, that's enough for me.
Funnily enough I love the timer. But I'm very competitive so a race against the clock is fun. My partner HATES timers so she's always stressed as hell. Maybe they should bring in a non timed version lol.
M+ is really fun with friends who are good. Peak experience for me is just having 1/2 dps pugs because ALL they really have to do is dps well. As if you know how to tank/heal that's all the REALLY heavy stuff taken care of right there with pathing and pull management.
It's quite shocking how bad an average WOW player is, so it's super easy to get picky with who you let in. As someone who can't be bothered to learn their rotation can slow you down enough to cause a timeout. Spending half an hour or so trying to clear a dungeon and fail right at the end is extremely disheartening.
So it really just boils down to having friends/guildies who are decent or a willingness to wade through dice rolls on pugs.
Playing with a similar skill level group will make the world of difference for players. Learning at the same time as someone who's at the same level as you is a great and stress free experience... unless they're assholes.
I gave up years ago due to things like iLevel, GearScore, Raider IO, etc. There have even been times where people messaged me asking me to join and by that point just the idea of doing it caused burn out. I was burned out before I even set foot in mythic content.
My 'hard core' days ended in Wrath. And any time people talk about their 'parse' my brain shuts down.
'Yo dude, what was your parse for that run' - Someone 'I have no idea what you just said and refuse to ever learn' - me.
Real Lucille Bluth energy
There are a few things that need to change about the system to reduse the perceived difficulty.
Stop down ranking keys when you fail to time or leave early. Thus only hurts 1 person in the group and it is often the person who started the group who gets screwed over here.
Dungeons should drop 2 items at a minimum even if not timed. And a max of 4 for a +2 or better. This will lower the toxic nature of expecting turbo mode runs in lower keys.
Add incentives for tanking and maybe healing. Like make the score go up faster for them. So players have a reason to do those role more then faster que. Or give them some currency bonus or tokens that you collect to trade in for specific gear. Something that can make the vastly more critical parts of the group be rewarded more to off set the hate you will get for when you screw up.
And last but not least, lower the max level required for dungeons to cap loot rewards back to 15. 10 was for sure to low but 20 is to high. Dungeons really stop being fun around 17 when most stuff will one shot you.
Very interesting ideas, I would LOVE if they didn't downrank a key if the group abandons it. The majority of my keys are dropped due to leavers and not actually failing the key. I like the loot idea too. The quicker you complete it, the more loot you get, even if the extra loot locks out after a while, you'll still have more incentive to run lower keys that way.
Great ideas overall.
I don’t think rewarding healers is going to make a difference. It’s an extremely demanding role that takes most of the blame for wipes. That’s not worth a bump in score or even an extra item when M+ is largely chill mode for DPS.
So, making the maximum level gear drop from +20s was a good change… its the best gear you can get in the game aside from killing the last raid boss on mythic. It shouldnt be easy to get and super attainable. The absolute best gear should be your reward for having mastered that content, to the point where you are actually able to complete a +20. Mythic raid is hard af too, thats why it drops crazy good gear. Why shouldnt dungeons be the same?
I tank 18, 19, and 20s in pugs. IO is currently 2500 range. I prefer to play with pugs and not guild members. Guild members get discouraged, and tilted. They like to throw in random bits of information during the run to show how much they know. They critique your decisions, regardless of whether or not you’re the more experienced player with a much higher score. You want to respect their input but at the same time you want to tell them to shut up and let you do the route and pulls you’re comfortable with. They don’t want to talk about the route beforehand or after either. Pugs might be rough, but they also place the run in my hands and let me do as I do. They don’t bitch either, and I don’t have to sit there in awkward silence when things go bad. I can just shake my head a bit and move on. Will I push the absolute highest keys 23+ in pugs? No, but I can get to 21’s and 22’s and I’m happy with that.
It’s entirely up to the affixes the week has. I have a 2067 io demon hunter, and I might do anywhere between 3-20 M+ dungeons per week with my guild. Like this upcoming week is spiteful quaking. That’s not bad. But doing say an 18 vault this week with bolstering terrifies me. Having the right party composition is massive as well
I feel like the skill and concentration gap between a 8 and +11. I personally have no problem with mechanics but a lot of people don’t interrupt, CC or maintain concentration to time it. One or two wipes coupled with 5 random deaths and you won’t time.
Doing mythic plus has made me realize I only want to pvp.
I tried mythic+ when it was new in Legion and I couldn’t grow on it. It was too stressful and the amount of toxicity in players it brings out is overwhelming. I stay away from mythic+. The demand for things such as raiderio or whatever is ridiculous. I remember when running dungeons was suppose to be fun, not an S.A.T. test.
Buahaha you made my day
It’s not ridiculous. People just want to make sure they bring players who have some idea of what’s happening so that they don’t waste their own time and keys. Some players are assholes as with anything. But expecting people to take a chance on you when there’s a dude right next to you on the signup sheet with better gear and m+ rating isn’t realistic.
I kinda like that it is an S.A.T test tbh.. a good way to challenge yourself if you find the right people
My recommendations
- get a nice playlist that either pumps your blood or soothes your soul.
- get some weak auras
- record your runs so you can see for yourself what you can improve
- use those cooldowns, don't save them for "the perfect occasion."
- /ignore literally anyone that has something negative to say
My guild basically told me that because I'm a clicker, and don't want to bind all my spells to keyboard keys, and because I play a Frost Mage I wouldn't do enough damage to do Mythic+. So they dont want me on Mythic+ or Raids, and I'm worried I'd get kicked with pug groups.
See you committed the cardinal sin of clicking. I think legally you have to uninstall the game now... for real though just play however you like and find a chill group that'll take you. They're out there, you just have to find them.
Why do you refuse to become a better player and just use key binds?
I stumbled across this video and started pondering my experiences with M+ dungeons. Not to really brag but I got KSM on every Shadowlands dungeon: Timing 15+ each and every one of Shadowlands dungeon, both Fortified and Tyrannical. The dungeons become more and more balanced with each season with less brutal numerical mechanics behind each boss that may or may not brick keys. With Dragonflight came, my interest in M+ dungeon became dwindling as it became harder to maximize rewards (because tbh, I use M+ as a means to an end to gear anyway and its reward ceiling for vault is 20) and harder to find like-minded people to run consistently with. What's worse is that ever since the shitshow of an expansion that is Shadowlands, it really broke my guild apart. Now in DF, my guild has roster problems and I pugged more and more M+ dungeons to the point I didn't feel like continuing since DPS is such a dime of dozen (and for some god-forsaken reason you can apply only 5 groups at a time??) and then when I do get into groups, there is no guarantee for success and started pondering why you're doing this activity with strangers.
I could host my keys but it's a freaking double-edged sword. Not only I might get members that may leave for whatever the reasons may be with the lack of etiquette thereof to actually finish the dungeon so our time isn't completely wasted. BUT IT DOWNGRADES MY KEY. Because that inconsiderate jerk from Ragnaros (tbf, not completely red flag but a red flag and is a different can of worms) left the group for whatever reason from a lack of people not applying to your dungeon because whatever the reason may be. Not to mention, hosting keys and inviting different group of people takes work. I don't want to look up each player and see what they've done. I just want to bloody play with other players and tackle the dungeon successfully. Perhaps have some laughs from a potential misstep. That has become a very scarce commodity nowadays because me and my friends once had a huge laugh because I wiped a dungeon group FOR A GHOST IRON NODE. In M+ dungeon, especially in PUGs, you can't do that.
I am currently unsubbed but with the return of the Trading Post, I might sub again to try it out. Who the heck knows if I get my feet wet back into M+ dungeons because I main a Demo Lock, a spec with insane scaling because of pets inherit your stats, surely I can do fine in the damage department in dungeons right? But on the other hand, I've seen a post where a Mage got invited into a group, asked if he was Frost and then kicked him afterwards... and my 2nd 70 is a Frost Mage.
Frost is in a really good place right now for M+ too, It's just a shame because Arcane is #1 so the more elitist players won't even entertain anything else.
I ve been playing fire since launch. Trust me less people care what spec you play than you think
We're not. Pushing +20s is easy once you realize that failure is still learning and good for you.
I would love to get into M+ but 1. I don't have any friends that play or any group to do them with. 2. I don't play the specs that people want for them. 3. I haven't done anything serious in WoW since the beginning of Legion, I'm not sure if I could keep an interest long enough to go far with keys.
Well it’s intense. It’s like swimming with the sharks. No one is your friend in a mythic+. Wow is a dog eat dog world where everyone is out for themselves, because the entire motivation of the game is to be better than every player. Any person who is better than you is someone you simultaneously want to use and will spit on if he makes just one mistake that could rob you of your success. Being an elitist and all powerful is the motive and fun of the game for many many people. Best thing to do is to find a group of friends to run mythic+. Wows player base has always leaned a bit more on the toxic side, as that’s the fun of the game for many people, but especially lately the game gives players a bit more tools to pull from to express their toxicity . The important thing to remember is wow is only a reflection of the dog eat dog world we live in, and unfortunately for many people who want to progress in a fun and friendly way will be shocked at how cut throat of a game it really is. But as long as you find a group of friends who you love to game with, you won’t run into these issues
Excellent video man, you nailed it
I’d also like to say that knowledge of zones has a profound impact on enjoyment. Once you do a zone 10-20 times it becomes much easier to just chill.
Furthermore, keep in mind that people take the most qualified players they believe they can get when forming a group.
ooo, what addon are you using for those damage tick popups, they are pretty
It's because kids leave keys over ego issues, despite being obsolete in the real world.
Raider IO is an add on you are using man. The in game version of that is just called rating. They are not the same.
A question to M+ 'ers out there!
I heal M+ on level 14 keys as of now. I love it and people rarely die in my groups, if the groups know mechanics in general. I often clear keys at + or ++.
However, I can't shift focus very well between healing and interrupting mobs with my brain thats affected by a burnout. I use a raid spec for powerful heals instead and my groups can get away with mistakes that way. What are your takes on this? How far up in difficulty is this viable, and do you think it's OK in general?
Thanks!
I used to care about doing the absolute hardest content, building a guild or community, and devoting all my time to this game.
Now, I get KSM and AOTC and I'm happy. I can pug my way to both with relative ease and don't have to deal with the toxic cesspool that is the community.
I hit KSM without ever timing a 15, not that I didn't attempt them, something always typically bricked the key. Luckily the pug groups I was in were just in it for the finish.
More and more, I find myself playing the game less and less. Maybe I'm getting older or maybe the game is getting worse. Who knows.
Off topic: How do you make your cursor glow purple when you move it???
While the video is good in general, you kinda missed the most obvious thing - the timer itself.
There are plenty of psychological research on anxiety casued by timed tasks.
Many of them conclude that if the timer is just there, even if it's generous to the point it's impossible to fail the task if you just pay attention, this still can induce levels of stress in someone.
As someone who has pugged more this expansion than ever before, even doing higher keys than I’m used to, I can say that my overall experience has been very great. I don’t think I have met any toxic people at all. I am getting closer and closer to getting my KSM. I really recommend for anyone, if they want to get into m+ just create groups with your own keys. Getting into groups can be horribly discouraging, so why not give yourself some more power. If you do enough of these it will raise your score, making it easier to get into groups.
Because I just keep getting Nok keys! xD
I'm happy that your experience has been so positive!
I have had a good experience this expansion too. Everyone who has 2.2kio seems to know their shit so it’s a smooth time
@@DrGeazy For me, the problem lied in that 1.8k → 2.1k, were people timing 15s think they know everything about the game and, because they saw a video stating that A. Vault timer is too short, they think 3 deaths = end of run and just vanish. Having a great time overall but, maaan, that 300 I.O range....
BFA was my first time getting super hardcore into WoW since Cataclysm (around that time irl responsibilities pulled me away from being anything but the most casual of casuals).
The constant pressure to do M+ by my guild to maintain a flow potential item upgrades so we could progress during raid resets (despite having to run with pug groups because all our 5mans were full) and the toxicity of all the randoms I pugged with burnt me out on being "hardcore" faster than the release of the second raid tier. Between getting Mythic Uldir cleared (which didn't feel worth it after everything was done) and before the Battle of Dazar'alor came out, I ended up gquitting and playing the rest of the expansion as a LFR andy while farming out gold just to pay for a spot in Normal/Heroic raid pugs. Skipped SL and came back for Dragonflight.
I love this expansion so far but, I still feel the stress from my experience back in BFA so much that I refuse to attempt M+ again.
another point is that there is no reasen to play low key if you a bit higher, that means every time you try the game you have to challange yourself to the maximum wich is very exhausting, im playing like 13 m+, sometimes i just want to log in let a video play on my second display and enjoy, no i have to run atleast 11 m+ to have anykind of progress, wich is a challange but with all affixs not a enjoyable experience, a challange can be fun but not on a workday after 8+ of work
I’m not the best m+ player. I play an off meta bear tank, I have timed +12 sbg. I don’t mind and appreciate if someone tells me how to improve, but when people flame the tank when a wipe happens with nothing constructive, it just sucks.
It's just rough at times, bc I need to do +16's and higher for them to be worthwhile, but dps spots are so gatekept that it's difficult to even get a group. And god forbid someone just bails halfway through.
for me M+ is scary to do cause you feel bad if you are the cause of the fail of a key or a timed run. People are known to leave a group if even one person dies. I also think DPs getting into a M+ group to start with can be difficult
All very valid points
I could count the number of times I've seen someone leave a group after a single death on 1 hand. This is after literally thousands of keys.
In reality I rarely ever come across toxic ppl in mplus. All the random groups are mostly chill ppl. When you start getting into higher mplus keys like 16’s and above is when you start seeing elitist ppl even then they aren’t in every group.
Weirdly enough I've had less issues 15+ and more issues with 7 - 10s. A lot of players thinking they should only take meta classes to do a +8. Toxic wise tho, I feel if you know what you're doing people are chill for the most part.
True and the most vocal.players in pugs tend to be the ones that dont kick, use def cds or stun anything. Its also quite common to vent on the healer if the dps dies even if its a oneshot :) but compared to others games the community is pretty chill
@@Jaggro yeah I haven’t pugged many lower end keys, my buddies was on more at the start so it kept me out of pugging the first few weeks. I get what you’re saying though, I noticed that in shadowlands a lot with lower keys. The guy that’s blaming you for dying to a casted ability by a dangerous mob, is also the guy who hasn’t kicked a single ability in the key.
I see the opposite where anything below a 15 has toxic players. Bad players breed toxicity. Higher keys everyone is aware that people make mistakes and 1 mistake can cost a key. This isn't the same as bad players in lower keys who don't even have interrupt on their action bar who start blaming the healer for wipes.
My 16 this week had a mage doing less damage then me(as a Blood DK who focuses survival not damage), and not doing any of the mechanics. He had 1800 score. Despite realizing with such low damage we would not time the key, the entire group carried on, just occasionally begging the mage to do mechanics at least. We finished, and I got the trinket I've been farming for weeks plus some score. Not every group is toxic. And not every group disbands over failures. I have found that 5 and lower keys tend to have people being more chill. That's a good place to start and find confidence and maybe even some friends. Let people know you are new before key starts. You will often find them reassuring you, and even helping with advice and encouragement when you mess up. Around 10-13 is where the most toxic players are right now. 16 and up you can still find clueless players, but the groups are more likely to push through and finish. We want those reagents for 418 crafted gear. Which you get one every finished dungeon. Need 10 per piece.
had a friend experience a +2 where they had a weapon with the wrong stat for feral druid. was halfway into december and the tank,healer,dps jumped down their throat about it. they didnt notice the wrong stat just the epic,upgrade ilvl and excited to replace the blue.. but still being toxic for a low lvl mythic and 1 item is rather hilarious
I just got into m+ for the first time after stepping away from wow for a few years. Healing currently. I've just taken things really slowly, not going over +5 or so until I firmly understand the dungeon's mechanics. As long as I'm squared away, I don't care what else happens. I'll never disparage anyone for messing up -- it's just a game and I don't actually care what happens. Hurting someone over a video game is really messed up.
you won't learn the dungeon mechanics on +5 keys. Whatever works there won't work on higher keys.
If you want to really improve, you need to be doing at least +10s
You hit it in your intro: the players are Gluteus Maximus headwear.
the problem with m+ and what will always be a problem is that you need 3 roles (tank,healer, lust) and the rest can be filled randomly. that makes it a 40% chance for you even to be able to make a group.
The game will need more classes that can do tanking/healing and lust needs to become activable via drums. Instead of making a god damn new class they should be adding more specs for current classes and untill they do that the community will keep staying divided.
Also you should never have a key be lowered, no matter what you should be able to just restart the key at the same time. Main reason for this is because not everyone has time to fail a key and then try to get it again same dungeon at the same level as before.
To fix this is very simple just make so as long you have done the key at a certain level you will be able to get that key for that dungeon at 1 higher. This way you will be able to target certain dungeons you need to get higher on with ease instead of continously rerolling your key untill you get the one you want.
All of the roadblock that are currently up makes the game add up HOURS to just getting 4-10 more io score, its not FUN its annyoing.
I rather wipe 100 time on the same god damn boss on mythic prog then to do m+ to gain score, because at least at prog we are always making some progress when it comes to muscle memory.
And to the fuckers who say "just start your own key" ok ye go ahead you first do that on one of the least played classes as dps, lets say ret paladin and see how fast you can achieve 2k rio. Let me give you a hint it wont happen. The only time you can start your own keys without sitting in a menu waiting for just as desperate players as ones self is when you bring one of the 3 key roles. doesnt matter if you are 2/3 dps as long you dont bring an optimal group people will look to other groups other than yours.
Btw how you said no timing a key is no a big deal around 6:45 is very inaccurate. We are not in the 2000s, we want our time to be valued and not wasted, if fail a key you have at least spent 10-20 mins, and this doesnt count in the time you spent looking/making the group.
The whole problem with M+ is very simple, IT TAKE TOO MUCH TIME!
And this will make everyone be negetive to any sort of fail or relaxation in m+, its built in a awful way.
How to improve your Live-Style as a casual player - That video was amazing! Knowledge is Key, having fun on a Video-Game is unpayable. Try out new things, learn routings for yourselves - The majority of Player who do Mythic + actually don't care if they finish it with special routings. Just play and learn from your own mistakes. Thats what I did in Season 4 of Shadowlands - And its what I do in Season 1 Dragonflight.
Yes! I'm casual and have been trying to get started on this system with no idea what it's all about. Honestly, I thought I was doing something wrong to find groups...But apparently that's everyone's experience. Why is there no group finder for M+??? The only thing I care about is getting the M+ mount and getting transmogs.
I've personally never felt this way, nor have I felt it is a widespread sentiment in the community
Idk I somewhat agree, I’m new to wow (started playin at release of dragonflight around 2-3 months ago) and started doing m+ last month, within that month without doing a single of my own key I’ve been able to climb to 2600io (and still climbing) I feel like people do accept you, just gotta try and min max gear as much as possible through either raiding/vault and boost m+ score every week by spreading the amount/level of keys through all 8 dungeons
mistakes happen but if your consistently messing up and bricking keys god forbid other ppls keys, nows the time to start doin some home work or stickin to ur own keys
Exactly, as much as people want to just float through the content, there comes a point you HAVE to learn. If you don't want to do that, fair enough, but don't drag others down because you're not willing to put in the effort.