Can't believe you only did the first half of why pen flinger was so toxic. Not only did you have to hear "Hey, Loser!" constantly, but every time they activated the return to hand, he'd go "It wasn't me!" and then you'd have to watch for the animation of him returning to hand. Once the pen flinger engine started, your opponent would rope every turn because they literally couldn't act fast enough to finish their turn and you had to listen to constant "Hey, Loser! Hey, Loser! It wasn't me! It wasn't me!" over and over again the entire time.
I turned off all voice dialogue in game just so I wouldn't have to hear my own stupid pen flinger say hey loser over and over again when I'm playing my tess rogue.
I love how the Rarran-Cimo dynamic has evolved into two dudes showing each other the bullshit they had to endure in their favorite games "Dude, my game is really bad" "That's nothing compared to my game dude" "Actually you're right, your game is worse" "Lmao but yours is also pretty bad" "I know right" "Tell me about it"
@@DeitySkullKidhave you heard of the new mulchummy cards? 2 new maxx c’s have been added into Yugioh 😭 so essentially there’s 9 copies now lmaoooo. They’re a little more situational than maxx c but it’s essentially the same effect
A thing that I always thought would be better and I got to confirm in this video, it is SO much better when you show the un nerfed version of the card FIRST, becaus the nerfed version is like "yeah, kinda cool, but too expensive to use" or something to that efect, but with the un nerfed they can realy feel how crazy the card was, and I'd imagine the other players wont feel so "cheated" out of being right, since they can't realy predict a nerfed card to have been good. Great content tho, always loved your videos, keep up the great work.
Theotar stealing their Sire D when it was lethal or nearly lethal on turn X was so absolutely brutal. Theotar made so many brutal videos for MarkMckz and Roffle.
"rogue has sprint, which draws 4 for like 7 mana" >rarran laughing< hey now, i'm old enough to have played when there were rogue decks that ran sprint >:(
3:43 While Glide was never played besides in Quest Demon Hunter), it was the THE card in Grandmaster Esports. Every pro just hoped or even prayed they didn't get glided on turn 4. So it's harsh to call the card bad, when it singlehandedly decided games.
When a card is only played in a single deck and in very specific situations, I wouldn't call it strong (in context of the whole game) . For example that cursed reno card was played in almost every single deck, even in non highlander decks because it was that good.
@@alihorda Single deck under specific conditions is not a measure of card strength. You could easily have a card with 100% winrate when drawn in just a single specific deck. And that card is obviously busted, or the entire deck is busted and this is just the card that "wins" for that busted total deck. Now toxicity and impact is entirely different right. Like previously spoken of. Neutral cards that are great are far more toxic, because you meet them ALL THE TIME. Think stuff like baku/genn right, or reno. We don't really have many of the first, but it would be things like time-warp gate or whatever the extra turn spell was called, though I think they now nerfed it to once per game, or? Same for the dragon one. If those cards weren't "once per game" they are insanely toxic and broken as fuck, and unless the meta is too fast, they can just auto-win on drawn.
One of the other issues with Objection that wasn't touched on, Explosive Rune was also in standard at the same time. Meaning you would play a minion, if it was a big minion you're punished by Objection, if its a small one, you are punished by Explosive Rune.
secret mage killed big shaman as well as several other big decks. its hard to play a big deck when you finally are ready to drop a minion in late-mid game, your opponent has already tutored both objections, generated two more, and after youve finally gotten rid of them all, your opponent generates a few more off norgannon lol! the types of gameplay I went through...
It physically pains me to see somebody describe themselves this way and then they bring up what I see as "new" yugioh cards. I started when this funny little game came out and I saw a deck with a cool purple magician on the front at Walmart back in the 90s (or early 00's, who knows you spergs)
I am also a Boomer Yugi-Oh! player.....except for me I started right after Metal Raiders came out. XD Literally the only things in the game were the Starter Decks, Blue Eyes, and that. ANY crazy cards in Yugi-Oh! will BAFFLE me because cards from those sets were 99% DOGSHIT.
I stopped playing big decks because of objection. it rotated out of standard finally but never again will i attempt to enjoy hearthstone in that way, not after seeing how hearthstone expects me to play those matchups. NOPE, coulda been great, but hearthstone said "mmmmm secrets"
I didn't play when Pen Flinger was used, and hadn't heard the battlecry much, but when this card was shown just now, I knew it was going to be because of the voiceline. It's like the "Everyone, Get In Here!" of that meta. I've only used it in Hearth Stonebrew so far.
i really like the dynamic between yourself and Cimo, very fun to watch!! also one of the like, few collaberations between content creators that I actually watch both channels' sides for. all the best ramranch and, before i forget, you two look wonderful :D
At 14:16 Cimo remembers back when Flame Juggler 50/50 killed 1 health 1 drops and Rarran "corrects" him with Knife Juggler who is more memorable but not the one that did these turn 2 RNG-based tempo spikes. Cimo is so uncannily on-point with a lot of his analysis are we sure he doesn't secretly play Hearthstone and isn't just messing with us?
He's played tons of limited and sealed format Yugioh the past 5 years, has played tons of retro Yugioh (2010 and before), and clearly dipped into HS and Magic a long, long time ago. He knows what's up.
@@rajkanishuI'd argue OG Denathrius was still incredi ly toxic. I was foolish enough to try and play Control Warlock at the time and missing Denathrius with one of the disruption cards was death sentence, since all aggro decks used so many token cards that they basically always had a lethal Denathrius ready
Cimo’s comment about Immolate is so true. “Wish we could do that in YuGiOh” And it made me chuckle because yeah. When you read Immolate in Hearthstone brain the card is like whatever. When you read it in YuGiOh brain it’s like “heck yeah let me pull out my lighter and take care of this guy’s hand real fast.”
Though problem with it is if your opponent is a stun player they will just set their whole hand and if not they will summon every handtrap on field under the sun😂
Printed Immolate in Yu-Gi-Oh wont really wor because all the cards in your hand are already gone by the end of the turn. It would have to destroy on board as well
14:14 No, I'm pretty sure Rarran is wrong and Cimo was really actually talking about Flame Juggler. I remember Kripp ranting about that card and how it would decide games in arena if it sniped a 1 drop on turn 2 if you were lucky.
Prosecutor meltranix wasn’t a “terrible” card, it actually saw fringe play in a lot of demon hunter decks during kotft and festival in more midrange decks like outcast DH
Yeah not sure where he's coming from with that take. It was a power player in Relic DH and was a very good disruption tool in higher Legend that would functionally Time Warp in a lot of matchups. It's the type of card that feels like it sucks if you don't know how to use it, but against most control decks that would keep larger hands it could win the game on the spot if you played it on the correct turn.
Really? I'm kinda surprised because I played a ton during that period, got incredibly annoyed at Demon Hunter because I hate that class and everything it represents, but I'm pretty sure I never saw a deck running Meltranix. Not saying that you're wrong, btw.
Rarran often talks about some cards as if he never played Hearthstone. Would have been awesome is someone made the same content but actually knew what they were talking about.
I think the thing that was missing from the explanation of Objection is that since minions tend to be naturally more proactive than spells, your opponent is much more likely to play out their cheaper minions ahead of the objection compared to Counterspell, AND that same fact also means that Objection can lead to way more moments where it feels like you can't play the game. If a Counterspell is locking you out it's more likely to be preventing you from playing answers, and your opponent is killing you, whereas if an Objection is locking you out, you might just be sitting there feeling like you can't develop your own gameplan (though he kind of touches on the second half of that)
any and all decks that run a small pool of minions spevifically to help with tutoring, or any deck that runs big minions is just a 10 to 1 for secret mage too, they just have to put 2 plus 2 together and know they have to generate as many objections as possible.
Cards to include: Sacrificial Pact (with the context of Zeref killing Jaraxxus for free) Naga Sea Witch Dr. Boom’s Scheme Skull of Gul’Dan King Togwaggle Juicy Psychmelon Spirit of the Frog
I think Objection is actually a fine card. The problem is that there were and still are tons of ways to generate more secrets which makes it impossible to play around. If your opponent only has up to two copies of Objection, you can deal with it, but if there are 6, you can't. The card itself is fine, the whole random generation around it is what makes it annoying and which also limits future design space for interesting secrets.
Objection on its own was fine. The fact counterspell was ALSO played and you just had to 50/50 to lose the game was really stupid they should not have both been in standard at the same time.
I had quit long ago when objection came out, but when I saw it's reveal I was immediately disgusted. Having watched content creators that played wild exclusively, I knew one of the biggest reasons why secret mage was a huge problem, aside from mana cheating, was having to test for both counterspell and explosive runes every single time a secret was played. The fact that counterspell and objection would be in the same pool, generating minions in your hand is way harder than spells, discovery was rampant, and that it wouldn't even let battlecries proc, I was just disappointed in Blizz's design team
Yep. The random generation was the problem. In wild we had secret mage running 2 copies of every good mage secret including this but no random generation and it was kinda annoying to dealt with but doable, and actually the most annoying secret was the one that draws 3 if they take no damage.
exactly this, playing against two was annoying but fine, but some games mages would just not let you play the game by generating it over, and over and over and over again. I think the most I saw was 8 objections in a game
The most annoying part with Reno is the fact the player doesn't lose their board or get the restriction. They get to keep their 2 8/8 giants (just an example) and dome you for 16 and you now can't realistically taunt up so you just get 2 turn lethaled without any real way to interact with it.
Cimo is straight up goated. Very intuitive and a great understanding of card games in general. I think he'd make a awesome developer. CTG games need to hire this man asap.
spaghetti code right? "its too rigged, we THINK its balanced enough though now?" eater of secrets vroken because "wish for the perfect card" code is touching him
13:39 in one tickatus argument, i looked up its stats. Played winrate: 49.9%. By ~0.2%, the most likely thing to happen after you play tickatus is that you lose.
in which rank though? what format? what time period? raw stat doesn't really tell anything EDIT: disclaimer just in case anyone tries to jump to conclusions: I'm not trying to imply in any way shape or form that Tickatus was anything more than an OK card power level wise
The problem with stats is that the card by merely existing crashes its own winrate by deleting its "prey" from the meta because it's SO oppressive and unbeatable for anything that wasn't extremely fast at closing out games. Caverns Below got nerfed TWICE and Blizzard had posted saying their data had it around a 40% winrate. But Caverns Below was itself similarly oppressive. If you see it a lot on ladder, are you going to keep playing your midrange, control, or value deck? No. People make Rock Paper Scissors comparisons but those aren't accurate. It's more like if Rock has 60% WR vs Scissors and Scissors has 60% WR vs Paper, but then Paper has 98% WR vs Rock. Guess what people aren't gonna play? Rock. Because it's the only one with massively unwinnable matchups. Then it's just a Scissors vs Paper meta where Paper swaps out some cards and brings the ratio more like 52:48 than 60:40.
you have to look at drawn winrate high played winrate means it's a card you play when you're ahead, low played winrate means it's a card you play when you're behind, it has nothing to do with wether the card is good
@@warptens5652 Played winrate is useful in a few select cases, of which this is one of them. Specifically, played win rate often lets you know how strong of a win condition something is, particularly if it's a high cost, impact card. Basically, if your card is high mana, and the win con of the deck, seeing how often it wins when its played lets you know how often it actually pushes you to a win, or if that card is just another card in the deck. A 50% winrate when played stat on a card could indicate that it is a weak win con, and isn't a card that can change your standing on its own. A 50% win rate on Tickatus really just means that if you're winning the match up and play tickitus, you'll win. If you're already losing, Tickitus will not win you the game. A higher win rate when played would indicate that playing that card has significant impact, and if it's high cost, you might be able to infer that it is weak against cards that rush you down before you get a chance to play it. You're otherwise right that generally speaking, when drawn winrate is better when evaluating cards against each other in a vacuum, and on general principle. However, when played stats on high impact cards lets you know how much those cards actually swing your ability to win, or whether those cards are also just another "just a good card" card.
40:50 there was... in wild. You could play it as early as t3 with the coin thanks to bloodbloom, and you had drakkari enchanter to essentially cut the turn timer in half to win. It was actually a meta-viable deck in the format too before the changes.
6:58 The third effect of Time-Tearing Morganite is a downside - for the rest of the game, you can’t activate monster effects in the hand, which shuts off 90% of hand traps and some strategies that rely on those in-hand effects to get their combo going. For anyone wondering.
Kinda disagree with Reno being the most hated card in the game. With the new expansion, he went from a villain into a hero as being the one final bastion against the unkilliax spam.
This was probably recorded a few days before posting when the expansion was still brand new and unkilliax was not popular yet. During the first couple days, Reno decks were still everywhere.
My favorite interaction with Theotar ever was when it was 4 mana. the opponent played it, managed to yoink my OG Yogg from my hand, and then played it the next turn. Yogg cast, in order, Myra's Unstable Element, Sprint, Book of Specters, and Pyroblast targeting the enemy hero and they just. Died. As is the penance for stealing Yogg.
I love your collabs with Cimo. He's so fun. Resurrect priest was the most annoying deck for me back when I was regularly playing HS. For a while, I was only playing shaman for transformation effects just for my hate boner against resurrect priest.
I think one thing you forgot, about OH MY YOGG, was that it was often played in hopes of countering Questline mage. And when it did, was it so satisfying.
I was such a huge fan of Dew Process, because my favorite deck to play aside from heavy control is mill. For the briefest time, mill Druid was absolutely amazing! You’d run Renathal, Topior, Fye, and two Naga Giant, with the rest of your deck based around the Solar Eclipse + Dew Process combo and then a ton of nature spells to proc infinite 3/3 rush minions + heal + generate more spells. Even after the nerf to 4 mana, you could still make that deck work, and it’s how I got my 12-win streak in ranked achievement completed
Haven't played too much hearthstone in the last few years, but I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to play around Objection, having to wait to drop your big minion til the next turn, and then your opponent plays another secret.
Really agree with the point about how discover/generation being what made Objection! so infuriating. It really wasnt good enough to maindeck, so there was no sense playing around it but it definitely would crop up due to random generation. I think any generation of spells can be tilting when your opponent gets the perfect answer out of nowhere but generating secrets, especially of another class, does so much psychic damage its unbelievable.
The huge problem with Objection is that EVERY generated secret had to be tested for Objection. If the mage played a Secret, yeah it's PROBABLY Objection and you know to play around it. It's when you see that pink question mark and "Created by X" next to it and you now suddenly have to play around both Objection and Counterspell (especially in standard where there were only like 6 secrets or whatever in Nathria) and just have super suboptimal turns.
Another thing they dont mention with Illucia is that it straight up skips a draw for your opponent effectively They draw the card into your hand and then they swap back and you have that card
Rarran you gotta start to show the guests more pre-nerf versions of cards! What better twist than "yeah this card was so annoying/broken that it had to get nerfed"?
If not this, I would at least rephrase the follow-up to something like "Is there any cost that would make this good?" That way it doesn't completely give away that the card was nerfed and gives them more room to answer
Rarran I want you to know you're pretty much the only guy i watch in my hundred of subscribtions , Everyone else is abusing trends and clickbaits and it's not doing it for me , anyway keep up the good content you're a genius !
Looking forward to this one since Rarran on Cimo lately, these card games have significantly undersubbed and fantastic personalities, CGB, MBT, Rarran and Cimo, do a podcast maybe talking about crazy things that have happened in these games and telling the stories to the others, probably too much work for the payoff for 4 people but damn that's a good team Edit: Voxy, Saffron Olive, Phil, Crim, the Cardkingdom crew, TheoneJame, couple others, the talent in this space is pretty good Obviously the professor, and the MTG historian
A lot of the points Rarran is making about why a card is viewed as toxic seem to come down to "it sucks to be interacted with outside of good ole fashioned minion on minion violence!"
If objection was just a spell that said “counter your opponent’s next minion”, it would still be good. The fact that it’s a secret means your opponent has to play around it even when you didn’t play it! It also enables mind games where you play a secret to force them to delay an important tempo turn and test for it, and then actually play objection on your next turn and force them to delay again.
Eternal the CCG from Dire Wolf has a card that has two effects, the player with the most units sacrifices units until they have the same as the player with the least, and whoever has the largest hand size discards(of their choice) down to however many cards the opponent has. I'd love to see a dive into Eternal, as it's like Hearthstone and Magic had a kid that was as good as both(imo). RNG much like HS is still dogcrap.
Cimo said "time-tearing morgonite" literally right as I was playing that exact card in Master Duel, scared me a little since I wasn't paying full attention lol.
There's a weird cut around 0:29. You're talking about the expansion being faster then jump cuts to "the reason why DH is so powerful..." I know it's likely done to remove the filler of the conversation between the two of you, but it was jarring to the point where I- who is listening to the video on my 2nd monitor noticed it.
I left Heartstone because of convincing infiltrator. When the priest deck showed up, i played constantly against it and full enemy board of this really destroyed the game for me.
Keep forgetting Rarran answeres all of this via Standard because I see a bunch of these cards that are "bad" in Roffle videos and they turn out to be useful because he plays Wild.
I used to be a blue white control player in MTG back in Return to Ravnica, I know counters are insane but I never really thought about objection being OP in hearthstone till today. In MTG counters start getting worse once you get more and more mana because you can just bait counters, but you also can just drop objection to block Odyn or something like that and just burn a whole turn or two for 3 mana
The other combo id argue was worse was if you played that 4 mana card that drew a minion and reduced its cost by (8) if you had 8 or more cards in your hand, then played both copies of the (1) mana copy a minion in your hand spell and then played 3 free corrupted tickatus' on like turn 5 or 6 (perfect hand) was so good lol
@Rarran I am a wild player who has costed on my Warrior Pirate Quest deck for over a year. I am too busy to build anything else, and I don't spend money so I can't optimize. That deck has given me Diamond 5 for 2 years, I am guessing. Reno destroying your quest reward is such bullshit. AND when they changed it to "start of game" it only made it worse as I had effecitively countered Reno with Wrenchcalibur, which I used multiple times. I loaded bombs into the deck to keep Reno from working and then they buffed it. Talk about going from Toxic to total rage baiting.
Please Rarran show unnerfed versions of cards. It would be a lot more fun seeing non-Hearthstone players evaluate cards like 8 mana Reno, 4 mana Theotar, 2 mana Dew Process etc. etc. than seeing them evaluate the nerfed, more balanced version.
Time Tearing Morganite has the INCREDIBLY harsh restriction of not being able to activate effects in the hand for the rest of the game, so it ends up in pretty much only stun.
I really like how Hearthstone tends to play. The first time I got 1 to Reno'd, I stopped playing the anything but battlegrounds... I haven't picked it up since.
Mentioned tickatus, my beloved Edit: if I remember this correctly, he was also in standard when they brought back death knight cards for a short time before the lich king expansion. So copy him, play multiples of him and when they die, resummon them with guldan. A beautiful combo that will not be missed lol
I think cards like Immolate and such would be far more playable with say "Manathirst (4): Costs 2 instead." or something along those lines. The big issue with the disruptive cards is how much of a huge tempo loss a 4 mana do nothing is, but you can't have the cards ACTUALLY cost 2 due to immolating someone on turn 2 means they are probably never going to be able to dump the hand.
Can't believe you only did the first half of why pen flinger was so toxic.
Not only did you have to hear "Hey, Loser!" constantly, but every time they activated the return to hand, he'd go "It wasn't me!" and then you'd have to watch for the animation of him returning to hand.
Once the pen flinger engine started, your opponent would rope every turn because they literally couldn't act fast enough to finish their turn and you had to listen to constant "Hey, Loser! Hey, Loser! It wasn't me! It wasn't me!" over and over again the entire time.
Oh yeah that sounds horrible
Rarran: it wasn't me!
The hey looser was my favourite part of playing hearthstone that season
Hey Catch!
I turned off all voice dialogue in game just so I wouldn't have to hear my own stupid pen flinger say hey loser over and over again when I'm playing my tess rogue.
I love how the Rarran-Cimo dynamic has evolved into two dudes showing each other the bullshit they had to endure in their favorite games
"Dude, my game is really bad"
"That's nothing compared to my game dude"
"Actually you're right, your game is worse"
"Lmao but yours is also pretty bad"
"I know right"
"Tell me about it"
Still nothing as toxic as Maxx “C” 😇
Maxx "C" to 3!
said no one ever
@@League____ *said Konami multiple times for no good reason
Maxx C proves that roaches can survive anything.
@@League____ Make a new card that specifically searches max "C" and have 6 copies in a deck
@@DeitySkullKidhave you heard of the new mulchummy cards? 2 new maxx c’s have been added into Yugioh 😭 so essentially there’s 9 copies now lmaoooo. They’re a little more situational than maxx c but it’s essentially the same effect
A thing that I always thought would be better and I got to confirm in this video, it is SO much better when you show the un nerfed version of the card FIRST, becaus the nerfed version is like "yeah, kinda cool, but too expensive to use" or something to that efect, but with the un nerfed they can realy feel how crazy the card was, and I'd imagine the other players wont feel so "cheated" out of being right, since they can't realy predict a nerfed card to have been good. Great content tho, always loved your videos, keep up the great work.
I've been saying this the past couple of videos as well...
Yeah, doesnt make sense showing the nerfed card first really
plus, you can then have a side game of "okay, with this nerf, was this card still good?"
repeating that until you get to the present state of the card
I have the voicelines "Hey loser!" and "Greetings fellow humans" permanently etched into my psyche.
My jaws that bite, my claws that catch!
My jaws that bite, my claws that catch!
EVERYONE-
GET IN HERE!
"How long can this go on?" Into "My jaws that bite, my claws that cATCh" is fcking cinema
And going back to Un'Goro
AHA! AHA! AHA! AHA! AHA! AHA!
Oh even worse pen flinger had a line when he went back to hand, “Wasn’t me!” Twice the lines for twice the annoyance.
i can perfectly hear this voiceline in my head, pure anger
Theotar stealing their Sire D when it was lethal or nearly lethal on turn X was so absolutely brutal. Theotar made so many brutal videos for MarkMckz and Roffle.
Hey rarran I think you misspelled CIMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO😂😂
😂😂😂
You misspelled ranch ranch and thus the cycle continues
Cimoooooooo
its 8 o's
Good ol' rarry ...
Ram ranch ...
Rescue-ace fire hydrant ...
Rararamama ...
Ray Mysterio ...
Roudy Roomba ...
Ratatouille ...
Rango ...
Ragu ... Whatever.
Ringo Moon really messed up his pronunciation.
"rogue has sprint, which draws 4 for like 7 mana" >rarran laughing<
hey now, i'm old enough to have played when there were rogue decks that ran sprint >:(
3:43 While Glide was never played besides in Quest Demon Hunter), it was the THE card in Grandmaster Esports. Every pro just hoped or even prayed they didn't get glided on turn 4. So it's harsh to call the card bad, when it singlehandedly decided games.
When a card is only played in a single deck and in very specific situations, I wouldn't call it strong (in context of the whole game) . For example that cursed reno card was played in almost every single deck, even in non highlander decks because it was that good.
tournaments and ladder are also two very different environments with different metas and viable strategies, can't really be compared
@@alihorda Single deck under specific conditions is not a measure of card strength. You could easily have a card with 100% winrate when drawn in just a single specific deck. And that card is obviously busted, or the entire deck is busted and this is just the card that "wins" for that busted total deck.
Now toxicity and impact is entirely different right. Like previously spoken of. Neutral cards that are great are far more toxic, because you meet them ALL THE TIME. Think stuff like baku/genn right, or reno.
We don't really have many of the first, but it would be things like time-warp gate or whatever the extra turn spell was called, though I think they now nerfed it to once per game, or? Same for the dragon one.
If those cards weren't "once per game" they are insanely toxic and broken as fuck, and unless the meta is too fast, they can just auto-win on drawn.
I see your 4 cards nerfed in 24 hours and raise you banned in 15 minutes after being *revealed* poor Lutri, companion was a mistake
@@darkjackl999 Then in comes MH3 with pre-release bans
Honestly having different creators and discussing cards is the best content ever. im absolutely addicted to these videos.
One of the other issues with Objection that wasn't touched on, Explosive Rune was also in standard at the same time. Meaning you would play a minion, if it was a big minion you're punished by Objection, if its a small one, you are punished by Explosive Rune.
Yeah. They gave mage the most expensive secrets but it feels like they used the mana cost to justify losing their damn minds when designing the cards.
secret mage killed big shaman as well as several other big decks.
its hard to play a big deck when you finally are ready to drop a minion in late-mid game, your opponent has already tutored both objections, generated two more, and after youve finally gotten rid of them all, your opponent generates a few more off norgannon lol! the types of gameplay I went through...
As a boomer yugioh player (played ~ synchro era just before dragon rulers) i resonate so much with cimo saying "going -6" on glide
It physically pains me to see somebody describe themselves this way and then they bring up what I see as "new" yugioh cards. I started when this funny little game came out and I saw a deck with a cool purple magician on the front at Walmart back in the 90s (or early 00's, who knows you spergs)
@@JacketVEVO We come from a time that cards without text were playable. 😢
@@DotDusk 1800 attack was all it took to be S tier
I am also a Boomer Yugi-Oh! player.....except for me I started right after Metal Raiders came out. XD
Literally the only things in the game were the Starter Decks, Blue Eyes, and that.
ANY crazy cards in Yugi-Oh! will BAFFLE me because cards from those sets were 99% DOGSHIT.
@@HafusAndLegacy Then Gene-Warped Warwolf changed everything...
Objection not being proc-ed by the coin like counterspell is really made it that much more brutal.
I stopped playing big decks because of objection. it rotated out of standard finally but never again will i attempt to enjoy hearthstone in that way, not after seeing how hearthstone expects me to play those matchups. NOPE, coulda been great, but hearthstone said "mmmmm secrets"
Sounds like you want to play solitaire, where people just set up boards singlr player style instead of an interactive card game.
@@tulejumalYup, that's why they're playing the least interactive card Game out there.
I didn't play when Pen Flinger was used, and hadn't heard the battlecry much, but when this card was shown just now, I knew it was going to be because of the voiceline. It's like the "Everyone, Get In Here!" of that meta. I've only used it in Hearth Stonebrew so far.
People love “Everyone, get in here!” Though
i really like the dynamic between yourself and Cimo, very fun to watch!! also one of the like, few collaberations between content creators that I actually watch both channels' sides for. all the best ramranch and, before i forget, you two look wonderful :D
At 14:16 Cimo remembers back when Flame Juggler 50/50 killed 1 health 1 drops and Rarran "corrects" him with Knife Juggler who is more memorable but not the one that did these turn 2 RNG-based tempo spikes. Cimo is so uncannily on-point with a lot of his analysis are we sure he doesn't secretly play Hearthstone and isn't just messing with us?
He's played tons of limited and sealed format Yugioh the past 5 years, has played tons of retro Yugioh (2010 and before), and clearly dipped into HS and Magic a long, long time ago. He knows what's up.
@@somethingdifferentprobably I was joking with that last bit, to be clear. Apologies if it caused confusion.
He's just traumatized from his time with hearthstone. He still has nightmares of facing secret paladin.
Not showing Sire Denathrius next to Duke was a missed opportunity.
Denathrius doesn't fit the topic though, it's not a toxic card, it's just a really strong one
@@rajkanishu It not really for denathrius himself but for the fact is was the #1 target for duke.
@@rajkanishuI'd argue OG Denathrius was still incredi ly toxic. I was foolish enough to try and play Control Warlock at the time and missing Denathrius with one of the disruption cards was death sentence, since all aggro decks used so many token cards that they basically always had a lethal Denathrius ready
@@zakanyimen Bingo. If Denathrius was good enough to be a priority target for Theotar, then Denathrius was toxic.
Cimo’s comment about Immolate is so true.
“Wish we could do that in YuGiOh”
And it made me chuckle because yeah. When you read Immolate in Hearthstone brain the card is like whatever. When you read it in YuGiOh brain it’s like “heck yeah let me pull out my lighter and take care of this guy’s hand real fast.”
Though problem with it is if your opponent is a stun player they will just set their whole hand and if not they will summon every handtrap on field under the sun😂
Unfortunately, Immolate as-is in YGO would be an absolute waste of hand space since there won't be 3 turns to make it go off
Printed Immolate in Yu-Gi-Oh wont really wor because all the cards in your hand are already gone by the end of the turn. It would have to destroy on board as well
Dude gotta love Cimooooooooo he was the only reason I was able to learn how to play Yugioh thanks for the awesome experience mate!
14:14 No, I'm pretty sure Rarran is wrong and Cimo was really actually talking about Flame Juggler. I remember Kripp ranting about that card and how it would decide games in arena if it sniped a 1 drop on turn 2 if you were lucky.
Prosecutor meltranix wasn’t a “terrible” card, it actually saw fringe play in a lot of demon hunter decks during kotft and festival in more midrange decks like outcast DH
Yeah not sure where he's coming from with that take. It was a power player in Relic DH and was a very good disruption tool in higher Legend that would functionally Time Warp in a lot of matchups. It's the type of card that feels like it sucks if you don't know how to use it, but against most control decks that would keep larger hands it could win the game on the spot if you played it on the correct turn.
Really? I'm kinda surprised because I played a ton during that period, got incredibly annoyed at Demon Hunter because I hate that class and everything it represents, but I'm pretty sure I never saw a deck running Meltranix. Not saying that you're wrong, btw.
you cant trust rarran on DH because every statement he makes is influenced by the pure undying rage behind his eyes
Rarran often talks about some cards as if he never played Hearthstone. Would have been awesome is someone made the same content but actually knew what they were talking about.
Wait a minute. This isn't roffle...
Cimo, Roffle, and CGB (CGU if you prefer) are just the same guy from different timelines
These are literally the best videos. Seeing them gives me a chub. Amazing.
:)
I think the thing that was missing from the explanation of Objection is that since minions tend to be naturally more proactive than spells, your opponent is much more likely to play out their cheaper minions ahead of the objection compared to Counterspell, AND that same fact also means that Objection can lead to way more moments where it feels like you can't play the game. If a Counterspell is locking you out it's more likely to be preventing you from playing answers, and your opponent is killing you, whereas if an Objection is locking you out, you might just be sitting there feeling like you can't develop your own gameplan (though he kind of touches on the second half of that)
any and all decks that run a small pool of minions spevifically to help with tutoring, or any deck that runs big minions is just a 10 to 1 for secret mage too, they just have to put 2 plus 2 together and know they have to generate as many objections as possible.
Reno underestimated. That card just killed the use of on-board win con, deathrattles and locations
Video idea: Showing cards and asking if it’s the original, a buffed version or the nerfed version
Cards to include:
Sacrificial Pact (with the context of Zeref killing Jaraxxus for free)
Naga Sea Witch
Dr. Boom’s Scheme
Skull of Gul’Dan
King Togwaggle
Juicy Psychmelon
Spirit of the Frog
I think Objection is actually a fine card. The problem is that there were and still are tons of ways to generate more secrets which makes it impossible to play around. If your opponent only has up to two copies of Objection, you can deal with it, but if there are 6, you can't. The card itself is fine, the whole random generation around it is what makes it annoying and which also limits future design space for interesting secrets.
Objection on its own was fine. The fact counterspell was ALSO played and you just had to 50/50 to lose the game was really stupid they should not have both been in standard at the same time.
I had quit long ago when objection came out, but when I saw it's reveal I was immediately disgusted. Having watched content creators that played wild exclusively, I knew one of the biggest reasons why secret mage was a huge problem, aside from mana cheating, was having to test for both counterspell and explosive runes every single time a secret was played.
The fact that counterspell and objection would be in the same pool, generating minions in your hand is way harder than spells, discovery was rampant, and that it wouldn't even let battlecries proc, I was just disappointed in Blizz's design team
Yep. The random generation was the problem. In wild we had secret mage running 2 copies of every good mage secret including this but no random generation and it was kinda annoying to dealt with but doable, and actually the most annoying secret was the one that draws 3 if they take no damage.
yeah, big decks died to objection, think about it.
exactly this, playing against two was annoying but fine, but some games mages would just not let you play the game by generating it over, and over and over and over again. I think the most I saw was 8 objections in a game
The most annoying part with Reno is the fact the player doesn't lose their board or get the restriction. They get to keep their 2 8/8 giants (just an example) and dome you for 16 and you now can't realistically taunt up so you just get 2 turn lethaled without any real way to interact with it.
Cimo is straight up goated. Very intuitive and a great understanding of card games in general. I think he'd make a awesome developer. CTG games need to hire this man asap.
Worst part of objection was that secret tech card that was printed doesn’t work vs it KEKW
spaghetti code right? "its too rigged, we THINK its balanced enough though now?"
eater of secrets vroken because "wish for the perfect card" code is touching him
7:00 Time tearing morganite give's a extra normal summon and a extra draw for the rest of the game, but you can't use monster effects in hand anymore.
For convincing infiltrator and pen flinger the voice lines are ingrained into my brain enhancing the tilt factor.
Greetings fellow human ( taunt sound)
13:39 in one tickatus argument, i looked up its stats.
Played winrate: 49.9%. By ~0.2%, the most likely thing to happen after you play tickatus is that you lose.
in which rank though? what format? what time period? raw stat doesn't really tell anything
EDIT: disclaimer just in case anyone tries to jump to conclusions: I'm not trying to imply in any way shape or form that Tickatus was anything more than an OK card power level wise
@@rajkanishu d5 through legend, sometime around darkmoon races. I was paying for hsreplay premium at the time.
The problem with stats is that the card by merely existing crashes its own winrate by deleting its "prey" from the meta because it's SO oppressive and unbeatable for anything that wasn't extremely fast at closing out games.
Caverns Below got nerfed TWICE and Blizzard had posted saying their data had it around a 40% winrate. But Caverns Below was itself similarly oppressive. If you see it a lot on ladder, are you going to keep playing your midrange, control, or value deck? No.
People make Rock Paper Scissors comparisons but those aren't accurate. It's more like if Rock has 60% WR vs Scissors and Scissors has 60% WR vs Paper, but then Paper has 98% WR vs Rock.
Guess what people aren't gonna play?
Rock.
Because it's the only one with massively unwinnable matchups.
Then it's just a Scissors vs Paper meta where Paper swaps out some cards and brings the ratio more like 52:48 than 60:40.
you have to look at drawn winrate
high played winrate means it's a card you play when you're ahead, low played winrate means it's a card you play when you're behind, it has nothing to do with wether the card is good
@@warptens5652 Played winrate is useful in a few select cases, of which this is one of them. Specifically, played win rate often lets you know how strong of a win condition something is, particularly if it's a high cost, impact card. Basically, if your card is high mana, and the win con of the deck, seeing how often it wins when its played lets you know how often it actually pushes you to a win, or if that card is just another card in the deck. A 50% winrate when played stat on a card could indicate that it is a weak win con, and isn't a card that can change your standing on its own. A 50% win rate on Tickatus really just means that if you're winning the match up and play tickitus, you'll win. If you're already losing, Tickitus will not win you the game. A higher win rate when played would indicate that playing that card has significant impact, and if it's high cost, you might be able to infer that it is weak against cards that rush you down before you get a chance to play it.
You're otherwise right that generally speaking, when drawn winrate is better when evaluating cards against each other in a vacuum, and on general principle. However, when played stats on high impact cards lets you know how much those cards actually swing your ability to win, or whether those cards are also just another "just a good card" card.
40:50 there was... in wild. You could play it as early as t3 with the coin thanks to bloodbloom, and you had drakkari enchanter to essentially cut the turn timer in half to win. It was actually a meta-viable deck in the format too before the changes.
I had an absolutely visceral reaction to the last card, just by pure instinct. Good fucking lord.
6:58 The third effect of Time-Tearing Morganite is a downside - for the rest of the game, you can’t activate monster effects in the hand, which shuts off 90% of hand traps and some strategies that rely on those in-hand effects to get their combo going. For anyone wondering.
Kinda disagree with Reno being the most hated card in the game. With the new expansion, he went from a villain into a hero as being the one final bastion against the unkilliax spam.
He went from villain to almost completely irrelevant because the vast majority of games are over by turn 8.
@@vaspeter2600 Well if it's Unkilliax vs Unkilliax it's just a fatigue game...
I mean also Yogg, Reska, Amun’thul…
This was probably recorded a few days before posting when the expansion was still brand new and unkilliax was not popular yet. During the first couple days, Reno decks were still everywhere.
My favorite interaction with Theotar ever was when it was 4 mana. the opponent played it, managed to yoink my OG Yogg from my hand, and then played it the next turn. Yogg cast, in order, Myra's Unstable Element, Sprint, Book of Specters, and Pyroblast targeting the enemy hero and they just. Died.
As is the penance for stealing Yogg.
I love your collabs with Cimo. He's so fun.
Resurrect priest was the most annoying deck for me back when I was regularly playing HS. For a while, I was only playing shaman for transformation effects just for my hate boner against resurrect priest.
Theotar was like okay when played once, unlike classes like Priests and Rogue that played it like 5-6 times per game it's so irritating Lol
I think one thing you forgot, about OH MY YOGG, was that it was often played in hopes of countering Questline mage. And when it did, was it so satisfying.
God rarran I can't get enough of the card game collabs. sick content lately
I was such a huge fan of Dew Process, because my favorite deck to play aside from heavy control is mill. For the briefest time, mill Druid was absolutely amazing! You’d run Renathal, Topior, Fye, and two Naga Giant, with the rest of your deck based around the Solar Eclipse + Dew Process combo and then a ton of nature spells to proc infinite 3/3 rush minions + heal + generate more spells. Even after the nerf to 4 mana, you could still make that deck work, and it’s how I got my 12-win streak in ranked achievement completed
Haven't played too much hearthstone in the last few years, but I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to play around Objection, having to wait to drop your big minion til the next turn, and then your opponent plays another secret.
Imagine playing a deck built around spells with basically just a single minion as the wincon. It's truly the Hearthstone of all time
I could watch these videos back a d forth all day
Really agree with the point about how discover/generation being what made Objection! so infuriating. It really wasnt good enough to maindeck, so there was no sense playing around it but it definitely would crop up due to random generation.
I think any generation of spells can be tilting when your opponent gets the perfect answer out of nowhere but generating secrets, especially of another class, does so much psychic damage its unbelievable.
tfw your opponents yogg casts a mage secret
20:10 Rarran looks just like Reno when he smiles like that
The huge problem with Objection is that EVERY generated secret had to be tested for Objection. If the mage played a Secret, yeah it's PROBABLY Objection and you know to play around it. It's when you see that pink question mark and "Created by X" next to it and you now suddenly have to play around both Objection and Counterspell (especially in standard where there were only like 6 secrets or whatever in Nathria) and just have super suboptimal turns.
"it's like loathebbing, but you loatheb their whole life" is funny as hell
Another thing they dont mention with Illucia is that it straight up skips a draw for your opponent effectively
They draw the card into your hand and then they swap back and you have that card
My favorite card in MTG was Approach of the Second Sun. Wheel of Death is the closest thing i get in hearthstone, but it sucks that its in warlock
Mr rarran thank you so much I would've starved to death literally today without this video, keep the expanded rarran universe content coming 🙏
Rarran you gotta start to show the guests more pre-nerf versions of cards! What better twist than "yeah this card was so annoying/broken that it had to get nerfed"?
If not this, I would at least rephrase the follow-up to something like "Is there any cost that would make this good?" That way it doesn't completely give away that the card was nerfed and gives them more room to answer
I feel that pre-nerf Far Watch Post or Boomboss deserves a spot.
Rarran I want you to know you're pretty much the only guy i watch in my hundred of subscribtions , Everyone else is abusing trends and clickbaits and it's not doing it for me , anyway keep up the good content you're a genius !
Looking forward to this one since Rarran on Cimo lately, these card games have significantly undersubbed and fantastic personalities, CGB, MBT, Rarran and Cimo, do a podcast maybe talking about crazy things that have happened in these games and telling the stories to the others, probably too much work for the payoff for 4 people but damn that's a good team
Edit: Voxy, Saffron Olive, Phil, Crim, the Cardkingdom crew, TheoneJame, couple others, the talent in this space is pretty good
Obviously the professor, and the MTG historian
A lot of the points Rarran is making about why a card is viewed as toxic seem to come down to "it sucks to be interacted with outside of good ole fashioned minion on minion violence!"
Based
If objection was just a spell that said “counter your opponent’s next minion”, it would still be good. The fact that it’s a secret means your opponent has to play around it even when you didn’t play it! It also enables mind games where you play a secret to force them to delay an important tempo turn and test for it, and then actually play objection on your next turn and force them to delay again.
29:51 Snnuy watching this and getting flashbacks to the Seraphine meta
Worst thing about the wheel of death call was final countdown was a legitimately competetive card in yugioh at one point
I would be cool If we could see an image of the yu gi oh cards cimo talks about during the video. Otherwise, great video
Eternal the CCG from Dire Wolf has a card that has two effects, the player with the most units sacrifices units until they have the same as the player with the least, and whoever has the largest hand size discards(of their choice) down to however many cards the opponent has. I'd love to see a dive into Eternal, as it's like Hearthstone and Magic had a kid that was as good as both(imo). RNG much like HS is still dogcrap.
From a magic perspective seeing “counter the next creature spell your opponent casts” for three mana being toxic is ridiculously funny
Cimo said "time-tearing morgonite" literally right as I was playing that exact card in Master Duel, scared me a little since I wasn't paying full attention lol.
11:15 this does translate to yugioh. Necroface was printed in 2007 and had to be limited to 1. The card was later used in FTKs when it was unlimited
Let's fucking goooooooo, a Cimoooooooo (eight o's) collab
The MTG card you're thinking of that takes your opponent's turn for them is Mindslaver.
There's a weird cut around 0:29. You're talking about the expansion being faster then jump cuts to "the reason why DH is so powerful..."
I know it's likely done to remove the filler of the conversation between the two of you, but it was jarring to the point where I- who is listening to the video on my 2nd monitor noticed it.
Pretty sure I just had a ptsd experience when hearing “Hey loser!”
I left Heartstone because of convincing infiltrator. When the priest deck showed up, i played constantly against it and full enemy board of this really destroyed the game for me.
Exactly!
Reno is instantly a "This card should be erased from existence" tier for me.
Hope to see Frost rating HearthStone cards soon!
Keep forgetting Rarran answeres all of this via Standard because I see a bunch of these cards that are "bad" in Roffle videos and they turn out to be useful because he plays Wild.
The convincing infiltrator deck made me start insta surrendering against any priest I face. I am still doing it
I used to be a blue white control player in MTG back in Return to Ravnica, I know counters are insane but I never really thought about objection being OP in hearthstone till today. In MTG counters start getting worse once you get more and more mana because you can just bait counters, but you also can just drop objection to block Odyn or something like that and just burn a whole turn or two for 3 mana
"Light every card in your opponents hand on fire!"
Damn this digital card game goes fucking hard
Great vid for the RamRanch!
The other combo id argue was worse was if you played that 4 mana card that drew a minion and reduced its cost by (8) if you had 8 or more cards in your hand, then played both copies of the (1) mana copy a minion in your hand spell and then played 3 free corrupted tickatus' on like turn 5 or 6 (perfect hand) was so good lol
Man i remember loving mil druid and legendary warrior back when I played heartstone
Pre nerf Pen Flinger is legit my favorite all time card. “Hey Loser”
Surprised you didn't mention the "Wasn't *me!*" trigger sound on Pen Flinger.
"Hey, Loser!" "Wasn't me!" "Hey, Loser!" "Wasn't me!" "Hey, Loser!" "Wasn't me!" "Hey, Loser!" "Wasn't me!" "Hey, Loser!" "Wasn't me!"
@Rarran
I am a wild player who has costed on my Warrior Pirate Quest deck for over a year. I am too busy to build anything else, and I don't spend money so I can't optimize. That deck has given me Diamond 5 for 2 years, I am guessing.
Reno destroying your quest reward is such bullshit.
AND when they changed it to "start of game" it only made it worse as I had effecitively countered Reno with Wrenchcalibur, which I used multiple times. I loaded bombs into the deck to keep Reno from working and then they buffed it.
Talk about going from Toxic to total rage baiting.
Please Rarran show unnerfed versions of cards. It would be a lot more fun seeing non-Hearthstone players evaluate cards like 8 mana Reno, 4 mana Theotar, 2 mana Dew Process etc. etc. than seeing them evaluate the nerfed, more balanced version.
UNITY. PRECISION. PERFECTION.
PUT YOUR FAITH IN THE LIGHT
BOW DOWN BEFORE THE GOD OF DEATH
It looks like the most toxic element of Lone Ranger Reno is that he's one of the best answers to himself
Time Tearing Morganite has the INCREDIBLY harsh restriction of not being able to activate effects in the hand for the rest of the game, so it ends up in pretty much only stun.
Looking fantastic as usual Blake
Another thing about Theotar that doesnt get mentioned as much is not only did you take the card but you also got info on other cards in their hand.
Cimo describing Morganite, "There's some third thing, I don't remember" when that third thing exclusively is the reason it isn't a staple.
I think he was right with "flame juggler" 2 mana 2/3 deal 1 dmg to a random enemy (I think). In that meta it would define games
14:30, he was talking about the actual Flame Juggler, 2 mana 2/3 that dealt 1 random dmg as battlecry
"Myra's Unstable Element" would be fun to show to people
I really like how Hearthstone tends to play.
The first time I got 1 to Reno'd, I stopped playing the anything but battlegrounds... I haven't picked it up since.
Mentioned tickatus, my beloved
Edit: if I remember this correctly, he was also in standard when they brought back death knight cards for a short time before the lich king expansion. So copy him, play multiples of him and when they die, resummon them with guldan. A beautiful combo that will not be missed lol
12:55 battle cries trigger twice card, and panda return to hand cards. GG (also, repeat all other battle cries card)
I think cards like Immolate and such would be far more playable with say "Manathirst (4): Costs 2 instead." or something along those lines. The big issue with the disruptive cards is how much of a huge tempo loss a 4 mana do nothing is, but you can't have the cards ACTUALLY cost 2 due to immolating someone on turn 2 means they are probably never going to be able to dump the hand.
It would be nice if you showed the guest some short example video of the combo... for example with the hey loser or 25 dmg to face paladin OTK :D
Am I losing my mind? Wasn't prosecutor meltranix used in relic DH for like a year?
it was used but i think rarran just wiped his memory of DH from sheer trauma
This is bring out so much anxiety and PTSD in me