Namastey everyone, I'm from Nepal. When I was very small, often before sleeping I'd imagine a very peaceful place all so green with trees and small houses and narrow trails. I used to see it completely free of carbon emission vehicles. That thought gave me a great pleasure. Now I'm 45 still living with that dream. I did try to create a group and talk about starting a sustainable neighbourhood with friends in Nepal but I couldn't find anyone really interested. Now I plan to start a small food forest in a very small piece of land I own in a hill nearby the town I live. I just wish I could connect to people who can uplift my energy and motivation towards this direction. Everyone here in my friend and family circle think I'm crazy. 🙏
All the best to you and your wonderful dream and your super plan of growing a food forest. I am working toward that same plan now here in Canada. Good Luck to both of us!
You are crazy! The best kind of crazy. Please go ahead and make your food forest. Make your dream. When you do that, the people who have similar dreams will seek you put. Best of luck!
"Everyone here in my friend and family circle think I'm crazy." Me too -- think where we are as a culture when caring about healthy food, and a balanced natural environment, is considered crazy. The crazy side is the right side.
I took an Intro to Permaculture workshop over a weekend. To keep going would cost over $10,000 for a PDC. I am a retired senior and my husband has Parkinson’s. Once I made it known I could not afford it, there was no longer interest in anything I had to say. It was a terrible feeling and I thought permaculture should be different than this. Did not align with my values.
Just grow what you like - in harmony with nature's own synergies of system - and forget any BS certifications. IMO, you can be a much better practitioner of permaculture with just self-study, hands-on practice, and a book, than anyone who thinks a certficiation is necessary, or even desirable. Mother nature is not certified in anything - just too busy doing it to even care about the concept.
You can find PDC for a fraction of that price. Our local one was $1000, one weekend a month for 4 months. It was a great format, way more time to digest and deep dive.
Thank you, Angela, for bringing these subjects to light. 🌈❤️🌏✌️I've been following your channel for a few years now. You always inspire me. You're a wonderful Teacher! Earth care, people care, and fair share. If humanity could just do that, what a world we would create. ❤
I'm sure you have read Braiding Sweetgrass, but it was such an important text for me to see a non-colonial approach to permaculture. That book, and this channel and your focus on the social and philosophical permaculture--has been so important to me in building how I want to approach the second half of my life (i.e., my 40s) and how engaging in sustainability is tied to being a poet and musician and mother and caregiver. xo
I'm a public school teacher. My kids went to public school . I KNOW the issues with public school and sister I'm so happy you could Unschool your kids. I'm a firm believer in " you do you, and what works for you." You do the schooling, gardening, self care, etc, that works for you! You go girl!!! I love your knowledge and am grateful for your videos!
Well articulated - would love to hear your take sometime on People Guilds - how does one build a robust guild of humans the way we do plants and ecosystems? The monoculture of politics and us v. them thinking needs a better design! Also - permabros 😂😂😂. Thank you!!
I usually describe permaculture as a mind set that can be applied to the garden, the land, the people in your community and yourself. I loved the permabro term! Slightly derogatory but appropriate for many of the people using it as click bait. Would love to see you interview some indigenous people for the channel to better understand the original approach instead of the white washed approach to many of the techniques we use.
Wow, another great video from you. What I especially like about your channel is that you are able to express your views and ideas in a very balanced and still very clear way. You are a great inspiration for me. Thank you for being you! 🙂
Angela, would you please write a book. Seriously. Your 5 points are so right on. Whenever I give a talk on PC, I start and end with the 3 ethical principles. BTW, I never charge money to share whatever knowledge I have about PC. When I did my PDC course there was only one place in the state, it was a 3 credit course at the state university and you had to live onsite for those hours (think it was over 4 weekends). Even 12 years in to being a hands on practitioner, I wouldn't dream of giving a course and charging money. And I'm, like you, trained in the sciences. I'm also a Buddhist and I find that PC is part of my spiritual practice insofar as the desire to be of benefit to all sentient beings. The 3 ethics may as well be weaved into the Bodhisattva vows... Great work as usual!!
Added up, I have spent more time watching your permaculture videos than I spent taking my PDC. And I agree I've learned so much more on my own than I ever did in that 72 hour course.
We all need to be able to discern how objective and accepting we are of feedback. Hearing we aren’t perfect shouldn’t be shocking. Knowing we all have room for improvement is part of maturation. Being defensive about feedback just keeps you stuck where you are without having taken the measure of the feedback. Onboarding can help you improve your skills and practice. Defensive rejection without examination anchors you to the spot. Growth ain’t so bad… just sayin’
Thank you for bringing up colonialism among your other concerns - as uncomfortable as it may be for us white folks to hear, it's definitely something that needs to be repeated loudly. I for one would love to see indigenous guests on your channel, or recommendations to other permaculture channels run by indigenous folks.
Can we please stop calling other people "folks?" What is that term supposed to denote? Normal idiots, or intelligent human beings with higher level thought processess? It's a patronizing term IMHO, and shows one's contempt for the other classes of human beings. We are all people.
@@modee-b9s wtf? 'Folks' is just a casual term for people. It's not derogatory, and I've never heard/seen it used in a derogatory way by anyone my entire life.
I've used folks interchangably with people most of my adult life. But if the new kids are making it wrong in language, we olds will need to set it aside. But really indigenous voices are welcome and appreciated.
Thanks for your words. I took my PDC with a focus on Social Permaculture and People Care with Looby MacNamara in the UK 13 years ago now. Looby is a great voice in the permaculture world for women and mothers. She is a wonderful guide in the permaculture world.
In order not to exploit indigenous people’s practices, I draw my inspiration from the peasant farmers that also practiced permaculture principles in Europe for centuries. I find their practices more applicable to the Mediterranean climate where I exist in.
Great video, good points. I particularly agree with the colonialism point. I see a trend in general of those frustrated by extremely high housing and land prices in more popular areas like Greater Toronto or BC’s Lower Mainland looking to migrate to “cheaper” countries like Spain, Portugal, Costa Rica or Mexico. They may even complain of the effects of immigration and foreign investment on their current location without seeming to think of how their influx of dollars will affect the cost of housing, land and living for the local populations to which they want to migrate.
Thank you for addressing this! I’m Native Hawaiian and it definitely does happen where haole (foreigner) white guys are like, “you need to farm this way, you should grow this not this”. But thankfully most people seem to be very supportive of our growing practices and want to help us out. 🙏🏽💗🌱
a prominent permaculture guru here in Portland some years back moved to Hawaii to play colonialist. white dude... felt that it was "the best place to grow your own food in the coming apocalypse". Sigh...
When I first learned about permaculture around 2016/2017, I listened to a podcast (or TH-cam video, I can’t remember). The 2 Millennial aged white men spoke proudly of not believing in people care and especially fair share. I had to turn off that conversation as it turned my stomach. Plus, it turned me off learning about permaculture until after the Pandemic began. Angela, I felt it was a breath of fresh air when I found your YT channel back in early 2022. I am so disheartened to hear of the hate mail you receive. Thank you so much for your courage to share this information. I value you and your videos greatly.
The aspect of 'lifting' really disturbed me when I discovered King had published a book called Permanent Agriculture way back in 1910. So the name itself may have been lifted. From descriptions in his books I could see that stacking for example is just old Chinese agricultural practice, and its not acknowledged within permaculture. I believe the name has a copyright and you are not allowed to teach 'permaculture' and call it that until you've gone way beyond PDC to the next level up and paid a fortune for classes from a master overseas. I have done a PDC. The thing I like least about it is the marginalization of native food plants and biodiversity. Having a garden full of bees is not biodiversity and they don't teach the difference either, generally. As to the social aspect, I feel disillusioned because of all the people who talked about a post money economy, and while they encouraged me to give my time for free, they made names for themselves and I was just a faceless volunteer. it went on for years. Somehow the social part of 'people care' is also corrupted for the benefit of some people. It doesn't matter if one exchanges goods and skills without money changing hands, it does not make the exchange fair, on principle. Bartering systems can also be exploitative, and as there is no law controlling this exploitation its really leveraged by self interested people sometimes.
so 'non money economy' does not equal people care or post capitalism, sometimes it is just exploitation with impunity and no recourse to justice for the abused.
@@carolinekloppert5177 Who was the first to culturally appropriate the term permaculture? We need to go back to the first to assign the blame. Does stacking appropriate from an earlier cultural practice that is not recognized? There is your answer unfortunately.
Very good and important points, Thank you for sharing and for being open to discussions and viewing topics from different angles. In our brutal online world it is an act of bravery. I only wish that the respect this creates for your work and communication would be as visible and felt as the attacks. But unfortunately appreciation is much more softspoken and quiet compared to anger.
Thank you for validating some of my own observations. I really appreciate how thoughtful and generous you are even when asking us to thick more deeply about whether or not our personal motives are in conflict with the ethics of permaculture.
In regards to the colonialism history of the world. I’m of the opinion that there’s no greater and long lasting tribute to a culture than adopting their practices and technologies. You can talk about forced take of land and government all you want but just remember only those in the world in a position of great privilege are even privileged enough to have these conversations.
I have no idea why this showed up in my feed. I see this particular idea has its own specific terminology. I will have to see what it is. I've heard of and walked on permafrost. But didn't even know this was a thing
I agree with most of what was said. I find it hikarious when people who say in an open text, that they rely on interns and courses to stay profitable sing praises to how sustainable permaculture is, just makes me laugh. One thing that I do not agree with is that its just repacked indigenous practices. I come from Poland, we have magazine archives from the late 18 hundretes that talk about practices that would now be called permaculture.
Indigenous doesn't just mean people from America, Africa or Asia... maybe the practices in Poland were done by people indigenous to your land? I think we really need to think about what we mean by indigenous... Of course when we talk about 'Indigenous peoples' these are cultures that have been oppressed and harmed by mainstream culture through the ages, and certainly need to be supported and empowered. But I also think if you go way back to the beginning, we've all migrated from a tiny population in Africa. We're ALL migrants. But we can create a sense of indigeneity with the land where we live, by connecting with it, learning its ecosystems etc. When we talk about knowledge we often use the term 'indigenous and traditional knowledge', which avoids issues of ethnicity and culture, and recognizes that traditional knowledge of people ethnically the same as the mainstream can also still be valuable.
I think you were bringing up a really good point that I did not dress in this video, and really haven’t thought about as much as I should: the fact that folks are relying on interns who are not fairly compensated. That is not sustainable, and that is not people care. Thanks for bringing this up.
I refuse the intern paradigm. If I cannot afford to pay a living wage in compensation for a person's time, then I refuse to hire them. And... And teaching people who don't want to read and understand on their own isn't my thing either. I have actually refused to have people over to "help" me harvest because they don't have any idea what my processes are. Processes that I've evolved over the years that work for me and my land.
@jameskniskern2261 you refuse to hire them, so they don't have any access to that job or skillset at all? What if the job you had to offer them and the skills they would develop would provide them more value than just money? And how do you make the assumption of what someone can live off of? Angela herself has said she lives on a shoestring budget sometimes, probably the same amount others would feel couldn't sustain them and their families at all.
@@erinwys216 I look around my area and see what it costs for housing, food and transportation. And then add more on that to pay for health insurance and other essentials. And for my area it is quite pricy. But you are correct. There are people willing to work for the skills and knowledge that I have. What I'm not willing to do is to exploit those people. Were I to hire them, I would compensate them firstly at a fair wage, and secondly in skills. But, being fair share, I admit that my farm cannot break even in this capitalist paradigm without exploitative practices practices I refuse to employ.
Wow! I had no idea that permaculture was so much more than gardening differently. I may have to read the books you’re speaking about. Thank you for all you do! I can see that you put a lot of time and energy into your channel.
I am so sorry that you feel that/might/will get nasty comments and posts about this video. Once again, you are absolutely correct about your criticisms. I love permaculture but especially here in the US and on TH-cam it has been co-opted by the homesteader and prepper communities. Unfortunately, both of those groups of people tend not to be introspective and those ethics are lost to them, but they also can’t shut their mouths about anything. Please continue posting on this subject because it needs to be addressed. Know that I am at least 1 white, American, man who wholeheartedly agrees with you. It does seem to be better in the international community… at least not where we are colonizing.
As soon as the early humans left Africa in pre-history they started colonizing. Then those who did not leave Africa started colonizing Africa in their absence - only to be colonized again when they returned. Now, those in Africa are colonizing those that left Africa originally. Everyone should go back to where they started - but that will re-start the colonizing cycle over again. This is where we are now.
So many ideas to consider. Thank you for bringing these ideas to this group. Concepts I may never have thought of. Love that you shared with us. No nasty comments from me, only high praise.
My first introduction to permaculture was a report on indigenous food forests in Australia. Any movement that gains any ground, the capitalists will be there to suck as much money from it as possible.
Much of the things said are very true for the local permaculture community (israel). I was especially struck by how strong the woo factor is with the community. P.d.c's are being exploited (often by people who gained very little experience and real life lessons) as an income source, but i feel that has a lot to do with those people's expectations of making a living out of permaculture, which is difficult otherwise, and maybe wrong, but thats another discussion. Thank you for your clarity
So well said, Angela! Constructive criticism is an opportunity for growth and a chance to see the world through someone else's eyes. Permaculture will likely evolve over time, from the differing perspectives and learnings folks raise.
It takes years to learn how to become a "true permaculture" practitioner. A PDC is a fad and mostly dubious practice. I have learned more from Angela in one yeay than a 72 hour "course?" could ever give. Keep on plugging along darling.
So interesting and brave again. How do you feel about Andrew millison at Oregon state? If I was gonna pay for pdc then I would do Oregon state or some other reputable university. Also millisons TH-cam shows successful permaculture around the world by the people living there. I only skimmed his book 😂…but didn’t bill mollison express that permaculture derived from ancient practices and indigenous cultures? I do believe mollison deserves credit for consolidating all this info and making it more implementable as a “system” to laypeople like me. Just like “girl dinner “ made antipasto more accessible to TikTok ers 😂 Great video and I’m so sorry you might get violent cowardly dms because of it.
I think Andrew Millison is really great for understanding the physical aspects to permaculture, especially land shape and water flow (which I struggle with). I work in elearning and I think the way he uses images drawn on glass and especially his sand box to understand contours is really exceptional. However I don't think I've heard him talk much about the social aspects, but maybe I've just missed that content.
I have multiple friends who have taken his PDC through Oregon state (I believe he has cotaught with marisha Auerbach who is a much respected teacher, and also has a plant nursery here in Oregon.) All of them have said they got some thing worthwhile out of the course and felt that it was more affordable than other courses and also more accessible for people with childcare needs because it is online. I do watch his videos, and I feel like he has contributed quite a lot to Permaculture particularly here in the Pacific Northwest.
@ParkrosePermaculture I took the 20 week OSU PDC Pro course, finishing in June of 2022. I loved every single minute of it and was sorry when it was over. I'd been studying permaculture on my own ever since stumbling across the 1st edition of Gaia's Garden 20 years earlier. Understanding as much as I already did made it so much easier to really sink my teeth into the course work. You might ask why, then, did I even need a PDC but I needed help in connecting it all together into a cohesive plan. I knew about the principles and the ethics, but mostly I seemed to keep focusing on the plants. (The plants, the plants, I need all the plants! Lol.) So the best thing about the course (for me, anyway) is that you don't design ANYTHING until week 16 or so, and that's exactly what I needed. I would take that course again in a heartbeat. Ironically, I found out about the course from a couple of glowing comments on one of your other videos that questioned the value of PDCs. I was happy to see that the course also included several units that required research and documentation into the indigenous peoples that resided in the area of each student's design site (in my case, the Oneida of the Iroquois Confederacy) as well as an indigenous land acknowledgement. The course was also a great way to work through a dreary central NY winter. I dived in right after New Years and when I came up for air, it was June! I have no interest in teaching permaculture although if I knew anyone who was interested for their own property, I would offer my assistance with what I do know. I'm retired and the price of the OSU program was within my means. If people are actually charging $10K, that's absurd. I do think that as time marches on and we move generations beyond Mollison, Holmgren and the people who studied directly with them, permaculture will tend to become more and more of a "racket".
"Hmmmmm, you might be right" goes a long way when people start going off like this, fully in their dogma about a thing. It acknowledges what they do know without dismissing them because of what they may yet find out to be true.
This conversation makes me feel so glad to be a naive Canadian, simply practicing permaculture to the best of my ability. When I first started researching permaculture, my biggest issue was many of the touted agriculture principles worked best in a tropical scenario. While they are trying to protect food plants from sun, I am trying to maximize sun expose to the majority of my lower story crops. The social aspect is often left out on TH-cam videos, but my personal conclusions, having been raised off grid, and being prepared for a socioeconomic collapse that never came, align with much of what you have taught me anyways. Slowly I have found a few northern latitude practitioners to follow, you being the physically closest to me. All this PDC stuff you're talking about has not entered my sphere at all. (I am still avoiding looking up 'woke'. I think I'll be pissed off.) Most people around me just give me a blank stare when I mention permaculture. I do not see hotly debated topics on the FB groups local to me. My biggest comment to date came from my Dad, (my parents were organic farmers), who said in response to seeing my garden and me explaining why I was doing it the way I was doing it, "I am a flatland plow boy as you know, and always will be." I think it was his way of nicely saying, "Sounds like Woo woo to me." 🤣 I took horticulture 1887-89 and I don't even remember permaculture being mentioned. I did however tour labs doing glyphosate research and genetically modifying canola so it would not die from being sprayed with a herbicide Listened to a lecture how it was going to save the world and feed everybody. How glyphosate broke down to the simplest of harmless common elements. Which I did believe for quite a few years. I had no reason to believe the scientists were lying to and grooming the next generation of horticulturists.
I am new to your channel. I really like your commentary on unschooling, and making your own clothes. I'd also like to learn more about permaculture. I didn't know that it wasn't just about gardening. Thank you for very interesting, thoughtful, respectful and enjoyable content. I'm sorry that you've been harassed, esp by "militant vegans". It makes the rest of us vegans look bad. I originally became vegan because unless I was starving, I couldn't bring myself to kill an animal and I didn't think it was fair to make someone else do it for me. Since then, I've learned about the benefits to the environment and to health. And there are so many alternative options these days. You can take any dish that you love, from any culture, and easily make it vegan by replacing a couple ingredients. And it's delicious! :) Anyway, I usually keep my mouth shut because I respect other peoples' way of being. But when people talk about their concerns and wishes for the Earth, I feel like it would be helpful for me to share. So, for those who talk about Earth Care, I invite you to at least consider this quote from the United Nations: "A diet that is higher in plant-based foods, such as vegetables, fruits, whole grains, legumes, nuts, and seeds, and lower in animal-based foods, has a lower environmental impact." Thanks! Best wishes to you and everyone, everywhere.
The idea of recreating the garden of Eden where one, once their food forest is established, just sits back, collects the food and eats it. Probably more probable in the tropics with a longer growing season and more shade tolerant food producing species, but I have yet to see anything like Eden in temperate climes. For the most part, food is work, hence the “classes” where you work your tail off. The idea that all pests and diseases can be controlled with soil improvement and guilds. Some things are just not meant to be. I guess this falls into woo-woo. Oh yeah, swales for all! All the time and everywhere!
Buying indigenous lands and make use of cheap labour for your own benefit - in your example - is the absolute antithesis of permaculture! Do you think they don't understand that, or that they just don't care? Bewilders me.
This is not meant to be a nasty comment, I just need to disagree with you on one point. I am White female of Slavic origin. People, mostly from USA, talking about all sorts of different things (including permaculture) seem to believe that what applies to them applies to everyone else in the world - which is very wrong. Now, related to your video above I can tell you that Slavic (White!) people have never been colonialists, never had slaves or enslaved, used and abused some other country and its people (of any color). There are many, many White people in countries other than Western Europe and USA that are like us! And, just as well, we don't have indigenous people living in our countries - now and always it has been just us! And, yes, there are many useful and long forgotten practices of our ancestors that are, inspired by permaculture, reappearing in modern life and many of us are trying to bring them back... In my country term 'permaculture' is not well received in general, so I rather talk to people about what and how we should do things - instead of labeling them with some new words. If gently presented and shown by example, in today's troubled world, people are willing to join and explore some old, slightly improved, ways of living that bring them closer and improve their life.
Wow, great video! I teach Druidry, which is probably not what you might have meant by indigenous culture, but it is mine, albeit reconstructed. Someone recently described my garden as permaculture, so I thought I'd better come find out more. It turns out I have cherry picked a lot of ideas from the permaculture community (thanks!), so perhaps I could provide an interesting perspective on some of the points you raise. Like you, I don't charge - for druidic teaching in my case - I'm funded by patrons. We embrace a certain amount of woo, I hug trees and talk to my plants, birds, pollinators and pests, fight me! Next point, the chief druid and chief bard of my group are both women, I have not done a head count but I think we have more women, a range of sexualities but no trans people yet afaik. We are 90% white, in line with our local demographic. I think we're doing ok, as the patriarch of the group, I have had to deal with it when that has not been the case. So yeah, modern druidry is a spiritual philosophy, rather than a design philosophy and many of us came to it because pretending to be a shaman or a yogi just feels fake, so there is a degree of baked-in anti-colonialism. We also have a relatively flat management structure and make most decisions by consensus - titles are just job titles / ceremonial roles, they don't confer special voting rights. That aside, gardening for me is practical druidry, our rules are the laws of nature. It just so happens that we have a lot in common with permaculture. I'd love to have a bit more of a conversation. Yes, I do have a channel if you want to check me out.
As a super conservative off grid permaculture homestead person/farmer who lives in a very conservative rural county ..... i want to be super honest about what I think a lot of folks see. Its political and ideological. I think a whole lot of resistance comes from the fact permaculture its self has become hijacked in a lot of ways and is seen as a very left leaning tree huggy slightly whiney liberal idealist thing..... and it turns ppl off to the point that often times the conversation is shut down from the jump. So when you talk about a yard in a city, yes I think those demographics work well because most major cities lean left HOWEVER, when you talk about the scale you need to feed the world, that is the target group most needing to be reached, those folks are most often in the countryside which is by demographic very conservative. When being spoken to no one likes to be lectured or talked down to and feedback from that group would quickly reveal its not so much the practice of permaculture that turns the bread basket of America off as it is the tone and slightly uppity way its often presented. Im sure Ill get blow back on this but, it is what it is. Theres a "tone" in the community that the community its self is largely deaf to, and its a turn off. Until that changes, I have zero idea how to open up the acres and farmers where the impact could be on a huge scale.
Great video, Angela! I'm curious about the idea that permaculture practices are lifted from indigenous practices. Do you have thoughts on Sepp Holzer? He seemed to come to practices that are similar to or the same as permaculture but got there through experience. I'm sure there is a fair bit of lifting, but I wonder how much also comes from people, at whatever time in history and however they got there, living in a certain ecosystem and observing how best to thrive there.
Honestly, I have . The monetization felt like fair compensation the first month that I got it, but it went down to 1/5 -1/6 of what it was the first month for almost almost every month after that. it doesn’t actually bring a lot of new subscribers to my channel, and I am not being fairly compensated by Facebook for my labor and they make the algorithm very mysterious so it’s hard to figure out how much they pay you per post or per engagement. I realize it is equally a dumpster fire, but I am working on getting my TikTok up to 10,000 subscribers so I can monetize that and see if creating content there is more helpful to people but also compensates me better than Facebook. Honestly, I just need to finish my book. 😂
Great discussion. The same thing happened with yoga and I'm sure many others. We just have to do our best within our own space of influence. I like Perma Pastures Farm on TH-cam.
Don't know if he was a permaculture but I tink Fukuoka said farmers could be more profitable if they went away from sprays and chemicals. I suppose whether that's capitalism is open to discuss.
Some of these critiques have merit, but this approach is guaranteed to harden the hearts of people you might otherwise reach. This is not how one builds bridges.
1. Yeah, there is no need for classes, especially expensive ones. There is definitely no set way of doing the systems. Nature is full of a variety of ecosystems. 2. Communism and capitalism are two sides of the same coin. Both are ruined by unethical corruption. Communism is no less corrupt or imbalanced. Keep political philosophy out of nature and gardening. Nature supercedes political issues historically and definitely will outlast any existing world political system. 3. Toxic borg dystopian communists are no better or worse than toxic individual mad max peppers. Permaculture means "permanent culture" and relates to the permanent establishment of natural food forest living ecosystems. Your warped racist version of history is no less toxic than those you are critical of. If world history and anthropology teach us anything, it is that there's not a culture, race, or sex that hasn't practiced some sort of oppression, slavery, corruption or destruction of society and planet for selfish and self destructive reasons. Again, is this Permaculture we are talking about or divisive Marxist ideology talking points that are used to divide and conquer society stability around the world? Please don't mix up ridiculous opinions and social theories with the management and development of permanent ecosystem culture. You're not a reverse racist. You are mixing politics with permacultre. Everything else gets muted by your own doing. It doesn't hold water.
I think those criticizing Bill Mollison, and the contemporary permaculture power base, are appropriating what these men have created for their own self-interest and gain. The principals of regenerative agriculture go back the the earliest practices of mankind, and are owned or answereable to no one. The linguistic structure however is a value added proposition in today's society, and that must indeed be atttributed fairly. Let each contribute as they may, and afford respect to all. The laws of nature should not be patented, but available to anyone willing to study nature - as the source. No gurus, only go-getters. To be able to follow, one must lead. Be that as it may, and with fairness to all. We need more underprivileged leaders in this space.
I'm so grateful you say it how it is.... I'm indigenous and I really appreciate and learn a lot from your TH-cam. Thank you for speaking the truth especially on Colonialism and white men and women guru syndromes. I hope you don't take on the racists. (I can't describe it any other way. Well done for being brave for saying it for what it is). If there is any hate guided your way, take the positive comments only, leave the rest.
If you google it says: unconventional beliefs regarded as having little or no scientific basis, especially those relating to spirituality, mysticism, or alternative medicine.
Thanks for that! Yes, beliefs and practices not backed by scientific evidence. It’s not used as a pejorative in my area, but rather a neutral term (I think there has been some reclaiming by folks who believe and utilize wootastic practices).
@@ParkrosePermaculture OK so it is slang for nonsense beliefs. I would not describe anyones spiritual practice as nonsense even if they made no sense to me as that is discriminatory language.
They are words used to describe beliefs and claims which have not been, or cannot be, objectively verified through the scientific method to the satisfaction of the academic community. The word was popularized by the skeptic movement. Having spent my teenage years in that neck of the woods, I feel qualified to say that they mostly seem to have their hearts in the right place. At their best, they fight harmful and exploitative grifters and con-artists. At worst, they can be closed minded and arrogant. Their commitment to rationality and emphasis on education about logical fallacies, critical thinking, and the scientific method can provide fantastic grounding for expeditions into the more subjective side of the human experience. The word itself is one to use with some discretion given that it was, as far as I'm aware, originally intended to be used in a dismissive and condescending manner.
I follow (on TH-cam) a spiritual woman called Jamie Butler whose line is "It's not woo woo, it's true true!" (more about spiritual stuff than permaculture practices though!
On the colonialism point; i agree whole heartely that the voices of indigenous people are missing from the permaculture space (im very new here but i have noiced this). I am a white person, i was born in south africa and about 10 years ago my family moved to australia. I have a dream of buying a plot of rural land to live and farm on but im really wrestling with the colonialism of it all because im a first generation imigrant from a non indigenous background (ie white south african). I dont know if its ethical to buy stolen land here and use it, but at the same time i need to live...its tricky ans a very emotional subject for me.
Reversing colonialism would require almost all homeowners to give their homes to indigenous families. Highly impractical and also not fair. I’m an immigrant to usa and worked hard for my humble condo. You’re right you gotta live somewhere I don’t think you should feel bad about home/land ownership just bc you’re a white South African. 🤷♀️
There's not much to disagree with here (except the woke silliness and her hypocrisy in raising the issue). For people trying to avoid the problems Angela mentioned, William Horvath is the real deal. Reasonably priced course, true expertise, long-term engagement with William when/if you need it, high quality info, step by step direction (which yields a real design, not more admiration of the theory), and real expertise in the course. I'm not affiliated (but I am a happy customer). Accredited? Certificate? I don't care about that.
Permaculture sounds like a value system that flows into a structural method. Capitalism will always try to coopt and consume. Fight it, friends. Give freely and communally. Find the commons. Protect them.
I hope this criticism comes off as feedback and not as an attack. This came off to me as a divisive and judgemental piece that actually provided very little value to concerns of permaculture imo. None of it affected me personally bc im a woman brand new to permaculture who has never taken any classes, just books and videos so far. I'm looking to whoever has knowledge to share in ways I find value in. That includes a lot of white dudes. They make a lot of content and are putting it out like crazy. It might not follow all the rules of permaculture perfectly, but like you stated early on, no one should be gatekeeping these ideas, they dont belong to anyone in particular. Its one thing to criticize a practice, like adding paywalls to content or overcharging, which I'd argue is voluntary and the market will reach a saturation point where it will inevitably become less expensive. Its another thing to judge individuals and their intentions by whats between their legs or the color of their skin. I know you said "not all white guys", but then dont even bring up the color of their skin. Talk about actions or mindsets you find troublesome instead. Talk about alternatives, even referencing individuals who present something in a way you think is better. Individualism can be a beautiful thing when you only consider the person in front of you, rather than assumptions made by things they have no control over (including past actions by people who look like them). I watch you because you bring me value in my practice and understanding, not because your a woman, not because your white, but because you have knowledge you are willing to share and its useful. Im in the middle of Braiding Sweetgrass. Its a beautiful book and is helpful in my mindset when im outside. But it doesnt really help me get started. Some white guy youtubers might not have helped me with the midnset, but have helped me get started on something that felt too overhwelming at first. When people find value in someones service or knowledge, they will pay with their time or hard earned money for it. Thats capitalism btw (or at least a free market).I would be in a row home with a cement patio right now without the tons of people trying to make their way and support their families throgh content creation. But with the immense access to information, I, along with millions of others can learn and grow and bring something akin to permaculture back to society. Thats wonderful, imo, and should be considered when thinking about what Bill Mollison and others following him have done. Id rather you criticize the individuals you disagree with and the acts that may harm others, and alert your audience to poor businesses or classes that may not be worth their time or money. But dont judge people you dont know. Toxic collectivism is just as ugly as toxic individualism.
"Don't listen to them, listen to me." "Lists issues with colonalism but doesn't direct viewers to culturally appropriate resources...instead, just listen to my channel." A whole lot of "they're doing my religion wrong." Namecalling. *This* video basically embodies the problem with the permaculture movement.
I never said “listen to me not culturally-appropriate sources.” I said the opposite. Which culturally-appropriate resources do you recommend besides the two I list in the video description? I would love to hear specifically what you think the “problem that this video embodies” is? Thanks!
Angela has linked indigenous sources and made it very clear that she feels she should not be speaking on behalf of indigenous people here. She invites them to speak up to this also. She explained her views, and did not require anyone to only listen to her. She invites people to discuss other aspects in the comments. Maybe you want to listen again and review your opinion?
Asking sincerely…I enjoy supporting content providers…and the money button on TH-cam is so convenient…but do you get all that money or does TH-cam take a cut? Thanks
Namastey everyone, I'm from Nepal. When I was very small, often before sleeping I'd imagine a very peaceful place all so green with trees and small houses and narrow trails. I used to see it completely free of carbon emission vehicles. That thought gave me a great pleasure. Now I'm 45 still living with that dream.
I did try to create a group and talk about starting a sustainable neighbourhood with friends in Nepal but I couldn't find anyone really interested. Now I plan to start a small food forest in a very small piece of land I own in a hill nearby the town I live.
I just wish I could connect to people who can uplift my energy and motivation towards this direction. Everyone here in my friend and family circle think I'm crazy. 🙏
All the best to you and your wonderful dream and your super plan of growing a food forest. I am working toward that same plan now here in Canada. Good Luck to both of us!
🙏
You are crazy! The best kind of crazy.
Please go ahead and make your food forest. Make your dream. When you do that, the people who have similar dreams will seek you put.
Best of luck!
"Everyone here in my friend and family circle think I'm crazy." Me too -- think where we are as a culture when caring about healthy food, and a balanced natural environment, is considered crazy. The crazy side is the right side.
Please do you, once you have your food forest those who doubted you will see what a wonderful idea you had.
I’d loooove if you’d host someone with an indigenous perspective on permaculture!
I took an Intro to Permaculture workshop over a weekend. To keep going would cost over $10,000 for a PDC. I am a retired senior and my husband has Parkinson’s. Once I made it known I could not afford it, there was no longer interest in anything I had to say. It was a terrible feeling and I thought permaculture should be different than this. Did not align with my values.
Just grow what you like - in harmony with nature's own synergies of system - and forget any BS certifications. IMO, you can be a much better practitioner of permaculture with just self-study, hands-on practice, and a book, than anyone who thinks a certficiation is necessary, or even desirable. Mother nature is not certified in anything - just too busy doing it to even care about the concept.
You can find PDC for a fraction of that price. Our local one was $1000, one weekend a month for 4 months. It was a great format, way more time to digest and deep dive.
Thank you, Angela, for bringing these subjects to light. 🌈❤️🌏✌️I've been following your channel for a few years now. You always inspire me. You're a wonderful Teacher! Earth care, people care, and fair share. If humanity could just do that, what a world we would create. ❤
I'm sure you have read Braiding Sweetgrass, but it was such an important text for me to see a non-colonial approach to permaculture. That book, and this channel and your focus on the social and philosophical permaculture--has been so important to me in building how I want to approach the second half of my life (i.e., my 40s) and how engaging in sustainability is tied to being a poet and musician and mother and caregiver. xo
also "woo-tastic" made me laugh my water out my nose
Yes!! I love that book. Thanks for reminding me of it!
It's such a good book I love it!
I'm a public school teacher. My kids went to public school . I KNOW the issues with public school and sister I'm so happy you could Unschool your kids. I'm a firm believer in " you do you, and what works for you." You do the schooling, gardening, self care, etc, that works for you! You go girl!!! I love your knowledge and am grateful for your videos!
Thank you for being a public school teacher!
A very thoughtful and thought provoking episode. Thank you.
Well articulated - would love to hear your take sometime on People Guilds - how does one build a robust guild of humans the way we do plants and ecosystems? The monoculture of politics and us v. them thinking needs a better design!
Also - permabros 😂😂😂.
Thank you!!
Permabros got me, too 😂
I usually describe permaculture as a mind set that can be applied to the garden, the land, the people in your community and yourself. I loved the permabro term! Slightly derogatory but appropriate for many of the people using it as click bait. Would love to see you interview some indigenous people for the channel to better understand the original approach instead of the white washed approach to many of the techniques we use.
Wow, another great video from you. What I especially like about your channel is that you are able to express your views and ideas in a very balanced and still very clear way. You are a great inspiration for me. Thank you for being you! 🙂
Angela, would you please write a book. Seriously. Your 5 points are so right on. Whenever I give a talk on PC, I start and end with the 3 ethical principles. BTW, I never charge money to share whatever knowledge I have about PC. When I did my PDC course there was only one place in the state, it was a 3 credit course at the state university and you had to live onsite for those hours (think it was over 4 weekends). Even 12 years in to being a hands on practitioner, I wouldn't dream of giving a course and charging money. And I'm, like you, trained in the sciences. I'm also a Buddhist and I find that PC is part of my spiritual practice insofar as the desire to be of benefit to all sentient beings. The 3 ethics may as well be weaved into the Bodhisattva vows... Great work as usual!!
Added up, I have spent more time watching your permaculture videos than I spent taking my PDC.
And I agree I've learned so much more on my own than I ever did in that 72 hour course.
Thank you for taking this on and being willing to consider the problems.
We all need to be able to discern how objective and accepting we are of feedback. Hearing we aren’t perfect shouldn’t be shocking. Knowing we all have room for improvement is part of maturation. Being defensive about feedback just keeps you stuck where you are without having taken the measure of the feedback. Onboarding can help you improve your skills and practice. Defensive rejection without examination anchors you to the spot. Growth ain’t so bad… just sayin’
Thank you for bringing up colonialism among your other concerns - as uncomfortable as it may be for us white folks to hear, it's definitely something that needs to be repeated loudly. I for one would love to see indigenous guests on your channel, or recommendations to other permaculture channels run by indigenous folks.
Can we please stop calling other people "folks?" What is that term supposed to denote? Normal idiots, or intelligent human beings with higher level thought processess? It's a patronizing term IMHO, and shows one's contempt for the other classes of human beings. We are all people.
@@modee-b9s wtf? 'Folks' is just a casual term for people. It's not derogatory, and I've never heard/seen it used in a derogatory way by anyone my entire life.
I've used folks interchangably with people most of my adult life.
But if the new kids are making it wrong in language, we olds will need to set it aside.
But really indigenous voices are welcome and appreciated.
Thanks for your words. I took my PDC with a focus on Social Permaculture and People Care with Looby MacNamara in the UK 13 years ago now. Looby is a great voice in the permaculture world for women and mothers. She is a wonderful guide in the permaculture world.
I love her books so much. She’s so thoughtful and has expanded permaculture design application in such important ways.
In order not to exploit indigenous people’s practices, I draw my inspiration from the peasant farmers that also practiced permaculture principles in Europe for centuries. I find their practices more applicable to the Mediterranean climate where I exist in.
Love your channel and what you have to say. Totally resonates with me. 👏 Bravo.
Thank you!!
Great video, good points. I particularly agree with the colonialism point. I see a trend in general of those frustrated by extremely high housing and land prices in more popular areas like Greater Toronto or BC’s Lower Mainland looking to migrate to “cheaper” countries like Spain, Portugal, Costa Rica or Mexico. They may even complain of the effects of immigration and foreign investment on their current location without seeming to think of how their influx of dollars will affect the cost of housing, land and living for the local populations to which they want to migrate.
Thank you for addressing this! I’m Native Hawaiian and it definitely does happen where haole (foreigner) white guys are like, “you need to farm this way, you should grow this not this”. But thankfully most people seem to be very supportive of our growing practices and want to help us out. 🙏🏽💗🌱
a prominent permaculture guru here in Portland some years back moved to Hawaii to play colonialist. white dude... felt that it was "the best place to grow your own food in the coming apocalypse". Sigh...
@@ParkrosePermaculture yeah… I think I know who you’re talking about. I don’t know anyone who likes him 😒
When I first learned about permaculture around 2016/2017, I listened to a podcast (or TH-cam video, I can’t remember). The 2 Millennial aged white men spoke proudly of not believing in people care and especially fair share. I had to turn off that conversation as it turned my stomach. Plus, it turned me off learning about permaculture until after the Pandemic began. Angela, I felt it was a breath of fresh air when I found your YT channel back in early 2022. I am so disheartened to hear of the hate mail you receive. Thank you so much for your courage to share this information. I value you and your videos greatly.
I love that you talk about social permaculture.
The aspect of 'lifting' really disturbed me when I discovered King had published a book called Permanent Agriculture way back in 1910. So the name itself may have been lifted. From descriptions in his books I could see that stacking for example is just old Chinese agricultural practice, and its not acknowledged within permaculture. I believe the name has a copyright and you are not allowed to teach 'permaculture' and call it that until you've gone way beyond PDC to the next level up and paid a fortune for classes from a master overseas. I have done a PDC. The thing I like least about it is the marginalization of native food plants and biodiversity. Having a garden full of bees is not biodiversity and they don't teach the difference either, generally. As to the social aspect, I feel disillusioned because of all the people who talked about a post money economy, and while they encouraged me to give my time for free, they made names for themselves and I was just a faceless volunteer. it went on for years. Somehow the social part of 'people care' is also corrupted for the benefit of some people. It doesn't matter if one exchanges goods and skills without money changing hands, it does not make the exchange fair, on principle. Bartering systems can also be exploitative, and as there is no law controlling this exploitation its really leveraged by self interested people sometimes.
so 'non money economy' does not equal people care or post capitalism, sometimes it is just exploitation with impunity and no recourse to justice for the abused.
@@carolinekloppert5177 Who was the first to culturally appropriate the term permaculture? We need to go back to the first to assign the blame. Does stacking appropriate from an earlier cultural practice that is not recognized? There is your answer unfortunately.
Very good and important points, Thank you for sharing and for being open to discussions and viewing topics from different angles. In our brutal online world it is an act of bravery. I only wish that the respect this creates for your work and communication would be as visible and felt as the attacks. But unfortunately appreciation is much more softspoken and quiet compared to anger.
Thank you for validating some of my own observations. I really appreciate how thoughtful and generous you are even when asking us to thick more deeply about whether or not our personal motives are in conflict with the ethics of permaculture.
No lies detected 💯🔥
I have so much respect for you. Please keep raising these points
In regards to the colonialism history of the world. I’m of the opinion that there’s no greater and long lasting tribute to a culture than adopting their practices and technologies. You can talk about forced take of land and government all you want but just remember only those in the world in a position of great privilege are even privileged enough to have these conversations.
I have no idea why this showed up in my feed. I see this particular idea has its own specific terminology. I will have to see what it is. I've heard of and walked on permafrost. But didn't even know this was a thing
Welcome to permaculture!
Yes, the three ethics, and you get tomatoes!! I enjoy the gardening of food, flowers, and fruits. Thanks for the discussing of this topic.
I agree with most of what was said. I find it hikarious when people who say in an open text, that they rely on interns and courses to stay profitable sing praises to how sustainable permaculture is, just makes me laugh. One thing that I do not agree with is that its just repacked indigenous practices. I come from Poland, we have magazine archives from the late 18 hundretes that talk about practices that would now be called permaculture.
Indigenous doesn't just mean people from America, Africa or Asia... maybe the practices in Poland were done by people indigenous to your land?
I think we really need to think about what we mean by indigenous... Of course when we talk about 'Indigenous peoples' these are cultures that have been oppressed and harmed by mainstream culture through the ages, and certainly need to be supported and empowered. But I also think if you go way back to the beginning, we've all migrated from a tiny population in Africa. We're ALL migrants. But we can create a sense of indigeneity with the land where we live, by connecting with it, learning its ecosystems etc. When we talk about knowledge we often use the term 'indigenous and traditional knowledge', which avoids issues of ethnicity and culture, and recognizes that traditional knowledge of people ethnically the same as the mainstream can also still be valuable.
I think you were bringing up a really good point that I did not dress in this video, and really haven’t thought about as much as I should: the fact that folks are relying on interns who are not fairly compensated. That is not sustainable, and that is not people care. Thanks for bringing this up.
I refuse the intern paradigm. If I cannot afford to pay a living wage in compensation for a person's time, then I refuse to hire them.
And... And teaching people who don't want to read and understand on their own isn't my thing either.
I have actually refused to have people over to "help" me harvest because they don't have any idea what my processes are. Processes that I've evolved over the years that work for me and my land.
@jameskniskern2261 you refuse to hire them, so they don't have any access to that job or skillset at all? What if the job you had to offer them and the skills they would develop would provide them more value than just money? And how do you make the assumption of what someone can live off of? Angela herself has said she lives on a shoestring budget sometimes, probably the same amount others would feel couldn't sustain them and their families at all.
@@erinwys216 I look around my area and see what it costs for housing, food and transportation. And then add more on that to pay for health insurance and other essentials. And for my area it is quite pricy.
But you are correct. There are people willing to work for the skills and knowledge that I have. What I'm not willing to do is to exploit those people. Were I to hire them, I would compensate them firstly at a fair wage, and secondly in skills.
But, being fair share, I admit that my farm cannot break even in this capitalist paradigm without exploitative practices practices I refuse to employ.
Wow! I had no idea that permaculture was so much more than gardening differently. I may have to read the books you’re speaking about. Thank you for all you do! I can see that you put a lot of time and energy into your channel.
I am so sorry that you feel that/might/will get nasty comments and posts about this video. Once again, you are absolutely correct about your criticisms. I love permaculture but especially here in the US and on TH-cam it has been co-opted by the homesteader and prepper communities. Unfortunately, both of those groups of people tend not to be introspective and those ethics are lost to them, but they also can’t shut their mouths about anything. Please continue posting on this subject because it needs to be addressed. Know that I am at least 1 white, American, man who wholeheartedly agrees with you. It does seem to be better in the international community… at least not where we are colonizing.
As soon as the early humans left Africa in pre-history they started colonizing. Then those who did not leave Africa started colonizing Africa in their absence - only to be colonized again when they returned. Now, those in Africa are colonizing those that left Africa originally. Everyone should go back to where they started - but that will re-start the colonizing cycle over again. This is where we are now.
So many ideas to consider. Thank you for bringing these ideas to this group. Concepts I may never have thought of. Love that you shared with us. No nasty comments from me, only high praise.
"Take one, teach one" sounds like a PDC pyramid scheme.
My first introduction to permaculture was a report on indigenous food forests in Australia.
Any movement that gains any ground, the capitalists will be there to suck as much money from it as possible.
totally agree with that. Capitalism taints so many good things in our society.
Much of the things said are very true for the local permaculture community (israel). I was especially struck by how strong the woo factor is with the community. P.d.c's are being exploited (often by people who gained very little experience and real life lessons) as an income source, but i feel that has a lot to do with those people's expectations of making a living out of permaculture, which is difficult otherwise, and maybe wrong, but thats another discussion. Thank you for your clarity
So well said, Angela! Constructive criticism is an opportunity for growth and a chance to see the world through someone else's eyes. Permaculture will likely evolve over time, from the differing perspectives and learnings folks raise.
Angela, I always love your takes ♥️
Love this video! Thanks, Angela!
It takes years to learn how to become a "true permaculture" practitioner. A PDC is a fad and mostly dubious practice. I have learned more from Angela in one yeay than a 72 hour "course?" could ever give. Keep on plugging along darling.
So interesting and brave again.
How do you feel about Andrew millison at Oregon state? If I was gonna pay for pdc then I would do Oregon state or some other reputable university.
Also millisons TH-cam shows successful permaculture around the world by the people living there.
I only skimmed his book 😂…but didn’t bill mollison express that permaculture derived from ancient practices and indigenous cultures? I do believe mollison deserves credit for consolidating all this info and making it more implementable as a “system” to laypeople like me.
Just like “girl dinner “ made antipasto more accessible to TikTok ers 😂
Great video and I’m so sorry you might get violent cowardly dms because of it.
I think Andrew Millison is really great for understanding the physical aspects to permaculture, especially land shape and water flow (which I struggle with). I work in elearning and I think the way he uses images drawn on glass and especially his sand box to understand contours is really exceptional. However I don't think I've heard him talk much about the social aspects, but maybe I've just missed that content.
I have multiple friends who have taken his PDC through Oregon state (I believe he has cotaught with marisha Auerbach who is a much respected teacher, and also has a plant nursery here in Oregon.) All of them have said they got some thing worthwhile out of the course and felt that it was more affordable than other courses and also more accessible for people with childcare needs because it is online. I do watch his videos, and I feel like he has contributed quite a lot to Permaculture particularly here in the Pacific Northwest.
@ParkrosePermaculture I took the 20 week OSU PDC Pro course, finishing in June of 2022. I loved every single minute of it and was sorry when it was over. I'd been studying permaculture on my own ever since stumbling across the 1st edition of Gaia's Garden 20 years earlier. Understanding as much as I already did made it so much easier to really sink my teeth into the course work. You might ask why, then, did I even need a PDC but I needed help in connecting it all together into a cohesive plan. I knew about the principles and the ethics, but mostly I seemed to keep focusing on the plants. (The plants, the plants, I need all the plants! Lol.) So the best thing about the course (for me, anyway) is that you don't design ANYTHING until week 16 or so, and that's exactly what I needed. I would take that course again in a heartbeat. Ironically, I found out about the course from a couple of glowing comments on one of your other videos that questioned the value of PDCs.
I was happy to see that the course also included several units that required research and documentation into the indigenous peoples that resided in the area of each student's design site (in my case, the Oneida of the Iroquois Confederacy) as well as an indigenous land acknowledgement.
The course was also a great way to work through a dreary central NY winter. I dived in right after New Years and when I came up for air, it was June!
I have no interest in teaching permaculture although if I knew anyone who was interested for their own property, I would offer my assistance with what I do know. I'm retired and the price of the OSU program was within my means. If people are actually charging $10K, that's absurd.
I do think that as time marches on and we move generations beyond Mollison, Holmgren and the people who studied directly with them, permaculture will tend to become more and more of a "racket".
"Hmmmmm, you might be right" goes a long way when people start going off like this, fully in their dogma about a thing. It acknowledges what they do know without dismissing them because of what they may yet find out to be true.
This conversation makes me feel so glad to be a naive Canadian, simply practicing permaculture to the best of my ability. When I first started researching permaculture, my biggest issue was many of the touted agriculture principles worked best in a tropical scenario. While they are trying to protect food plants from sun, I am trying to maximize sun expose to the majority of my lower story crops.
The social aspect is often left out on TH-cam videos, but my personal conclusions, having been raised off grid, and being prepared for a socioeconomic collapse that never came, align with much of what you have taught me anyways.
Slowly I have found a few northern latitude practitioners to follow, you being the physically closest to me. All this PDC stuff you're talking about has not entered my sphere at all. (I am still avoiding looking up 'woke'. I think I'll be pissed off.)
Most people around me just give me a blank stare when I mention permaculture. I do not see hotly debated topics on the FB groups local to me.
My biggest comment to date came from my Dad, (my parents were organic farmers), who said in response to seeing my garden and me explaining why I was doing it the way I was doing it, "I am a flatland plow boy as you know, and always will be." I think it was his way of nicely saying, "Sounds like Woo woo to me." 🤣
I took horticulture 1887-89 and I don't even remember permaculture being mentioned. I did however tour labs doing glyphosate research and genetically modifying canola so it would not die from being sprayed with a herbicide Listened to a lecture how it was going to save the world and feed everybody. How glyphosate broke down to the simplest of harmless common elements. Which I did believe for quite a few years. I had no reason to believe the scientists were lying to and grooming the next generation of horticulturists.
Well said!
I am new to your channel. I really like your commentary on unschooling, and making your own clothes. I'd also like to learn more about permaculture. I didn't know that it wasn't just about gardening. Thank you for very interesting, thoughtful, respectful and enjoyable content. I'm sorry that you've been harassed, esp by "militant vegans". It makes the rest of us vegans look bad. I originally became vegan because unless I was starving, I couldn't bring myself to kill an animal and I didn't think it was fair to make someone else do it for me. Since then, I've learned about the benefits to the environment and to health. And there are so many alternative options these days. You can take any dish that you love, from any culture, and easily make it vegan by replacing a couple ingredients. And it's delicious! :) Anyway, I usually keep my mouth shut because I respect other peoples' way of being. But when people talk about their concerns and wishes for the Earth, I feel like it would be helpful for me to share. So, for those who talk about Earth Care, I invite you to at least consider this quote from the United Nations: "A diet that is higher in plant-based foods, such as vegetables, fruits, whole grains, legumes, nuts, and seeds, and lower in animal-based foods, has a lower environmental impact." Thanks! Best wishes to you and everyone, everywhere.
I'm so sorry you get hate comments and threats just for saying your opinion. I love listening to you talk, I hope I can be as wise as you one day.
Youre awesome. Once again tackling touchy subjects with grace and insight. Thank you!
Nothing is a waste in permaculture. Failures become compost for next years crop! Failures also teach what can't be done, like experiments.
Preach PermaSis!
The idea of recreating the garden of Eden where one, once their food forest is established, just sits back, collects the food and eats it. Probably more probable in the tropics with a longer growing season and more shade tolerant food producing species, but I have yet to see anything like Eden in temperate climes. For the most part, food is work, hence the “classes” where you work your tail off.
The idea that all pests and diseases can be controlled with soil improvement and guilds. Some things are just not meant to be. I guess this falls into woo-woo.
Oh yeah, swales for all! All the time and everywhere!
Buying indigenous lands and make use of cheap labour for your own benefit - in your example - is the absolute antithesis of permaculture! Do you think they don't understand that, or that they just don't care? Bewilders me.
This is not meant to be a nasty comment, I just need to disagree with you on one point.
I am White female of Slavic origin.
People, mostly from USA, talking about all sorts of different things (including permaculture) seem to believe that what applies to them applies to everyone else in the world - which is very wrong.
Now, related to your video above I can tell you that Slavic (White!) people have never been colonialists, never had slaves or enslaved, used and abused some other country and its people (of any color). There are many, many White people in countries other than Western Europe and USA that are like us! And, just as well, we don't have indigenous people living in our countries - now and always it has been just us! And, yes, there are many useful and long forgotten practices of our ancestors that are, inspired by permaculture, reappearing in modern life and many of us are trying to bring them back...
In my country term 'permaculture' is not well received in general, so I rather talk to people about what and how we should do things - instead of labeling them with some new words. If gently presented and shown by example, in today's troubled world, people are willing to join and explore some old, slightly improved, ways of living that bring them closer and improve their life.
Wow, great video! I teach Druidry, which is probably not what you might have meant by indigenous culture, but it is mine, albeit reconstructed. Someone recently described my garden as permaculture, so I thought I'd better come find out more. It turns out I have cherry picked a lot of ideas from the permaculture community (thanks!), so perhaps I could provide an interesting perspective on some of the points you raise. Like you, I don't charge - for druidic teaching in my case - I'm funded by patrons. We embrace a certain amount of woo, I hug trees and talk to my plants, birds, pollinators and pests, fight me! Next point, the chief druid and chief bard of my group are both women, I have not done a head count but I think we have more women, a range of sexualities but no trans people yet afaik. We are 90% white, in line with our local demographic. I think we're doing ok, as the patriarch of the group, I have had to deal with it when that has not been the case. So yeah, modern druidry is a spiritual philosophy, rather than a design philosophy and many of us came to it because pretending to be a shaman or a yogi just feels fake, so there is a degree of baked-in anti-colonialism. We also have a relatively flat management structure and make most decisions by consensus - titles are just job titles / ceremonial roles, they don't confer special voting rights. That aside, gardening for me is practical druidry, our rules are the laws of nature. It just so happens that we have a lot in common with permaculture. I'd love to have a bit more of a conversation. Yes, I do have a channel if you want to check me out.
As a super conservative off grid permaculture homestead person/farmer who lives in a very conservative rural county ..... i want to be super honest about what I think a lot of folks see. Its political and ideological. I think a whole lot of resistance comes from the fact permaculture its self has become hijacked in a lot of ways and is seen as a very left leaning tree huggy slightly whiney liberal idealist thing..... and it turns ppl off to the point that often times the conversation is shut down from the jump. So when you talk about a yard in a city, yes I think those demographics work well because most major cities lean left HOWEVER, when you talk about the scale you need to feed the world, that is the target group most needing to be reached, those folks are most often in the countryside which is by demographic very conservative. When being spoken to no one likes to be lectured or talked down to and feedback from that group would quickly reveal its not so much the practice of permaculture that turns the bread basket of America off as it is the tone and slightly uppity way its often presented. Im sure Ill get blow back on this but, it is what it is. Theres a "tone" in the community that the community its self is largely deaf to, and its a turn off. Until that changes, I have zero idea how to open up the acres and farmers where the impact could be on a huge scale.
Great video, Angela! I'm curious about the idea that permaculture practices are lifted from indigenous practices. Do you have thoughts on Sepp Holzer? He seemed to come to practices that are similar to or the same as permaculture but got there through experience. I'm sure there is a fair bit of lifting, but I wonder how much also comes from people, at whatever time in history and however they got there, living in a certain ecosystem and observing how best to thrive there.
Parkrose, have you considered quitting Facebook? And thank you for the videos, they are very helpful!
Honestly, I have . The monetization felt like fair compensation the first month that I got it, but it went down to 1/5 -1/6 of what it was the first month for almost almost every month after that. it doesn’t actually bring a lot of new subscribers to my channel, and I am not being fairly compensated by Facebook for my labor and they make the algorithm very mysterious so it’s hard to figure out how much they pay you per post or per engagement.
I realize it is equally a dumpster fire, but I am working on getting my TikTok up to 10,000 subscribers so I can monetize that and see if creating content there is more helpful to people but also compensates me better than Facebook.
Honestly, I just need to finish my book. 😂
Great discussion. The same thing happened with yoga and I'm sure many others. We just have to do our best within our own space of influence. I like Perma Pastures Farm on TH-cam.
👏 love your videos. I'm sorry you get so many nasty messages when talking about important topics
Don't know if he was a permaculture but I tink Fukuoka said farmers could be more profitable if they went away from sprays and chemicals. I suppose whether that's capitalism is open to discuss.
Some of these critiques have merit, but this approach is guaranteed to harden the hearts of people you might otherwise reach. This is not how one builds bridges.
Interesting point, but on the other hand, we can respect Angela for speaking her truth and not mincing words!
I thought it was a well argumented talk, how would you reach people?
1. Yeah, there is no need for classes, especially expensive ones. There is definitely no set way of doing the systems. Nature is full of a variety of ecosystems.
2. Communism and capitalism are two sides of the same coin. Both are ruined by unethical corruption. Communism is no less corrupt or imbalanced. Keep political philosophy out of nature and gardening. Nature supercedes political issues historically and definitely will outlast any existing world political system.
3. Toxic borg dystopian communists are no better or worse than toxic individual mad max peppers. Permaculture means "permanent culture" and relates to the permanent establishment of natural food forest living ecosystems.
Your warped racist version of history is no less toxic than those you are critical of. If world history and anthropology teach us anything, it is that there's not a culture, race, or sex that hasn't practiced some sort of oppression, slavery, corruption or destruction of society and planet for selfish and self destructive reasons. Again, is this Permaculture we are talking about or divisive Marxist ideology talking points that are used to divide and conquer society stability around the world? Please don't mix up ridiculous opinions and social theories with the management and development of permanent ecosystem culture.
You're not a reverse racist. You are mixing politics with permacultre.
Everything else gets muted by your own doing. It doesn't hold water.
Thank you for this
Such a good video!
12:56 since we’re calling out old white dudes: now feels like a good time to point out that Charles Dowding did *not* invent the No dig method. 😆
100% all that! ❤...and you know how I feel about it. 😂
I think those criticizing Bill Mollison, and the contemporary permaculture power base, are appropriating what these men have created for their own self-interest and gain. The principals of regenerative agriculture go back the the earliest practices of mankind, and are owned or answereable to no one. The linguistic structure however is a value added proposition in today's society, and that must indeed be atttributed fairly. Let each contribute as they may, and afford respect to all. The laws of nature should not be patented, but available to anyone willing to study nature - as the source. No gurus, only go-getters. To be able to follow, one must lead. Be that as it may, and with fairness to all. We need more underprivileged leaders in this space.
I'm so grateful you say it how it is.... I'm indigenous and I really appreciate and learn a lot from your TH-cam. Thank you for speaking the truth especially on Colonialism and white men and women guru syndromes. I hope you don't take on the racists. (I can't describe it any other way. Well done for being brave for saying it for what it is). If there is any hate guided your way, take the positive comments only, leave the rest.
Please define woo and wootastic... as for me they are nonsense words.
If you google it says: unconventional beliefs regarded as having little or no scientific basis, especially those relating to spirituality, mysticism, or alternative medicine.
Thanks for that! Yes, beliefs and practices not backed by scientific evidence. It’s not used as a pejorative in my area, but rather a neutral term (I think there has been some reclaiming by folks who believe and utilize wootastic practices).
@@ParkrosePermaculture OK so it is slang for nonsense beliefs. I would not describe anyones spiritual practice as nonsense even if they made no sense to me as that is discriminatory language.
They are words used to describe beliefs and claims which have not been, or cannot be, objectively verified through the scientific method to the satisfaction of the academic community.
The word was popularized by the skeptic movement. Having spent my teenage years in that neck of the woods, I feel qualified to say that they mostly seem to have their hearts in the right place. At their best, they fight harmful and exploitative grifters and con-artists. At worst, they can be closed minded and arrogant. Their commitment to rationality and emphasis on education about logical fallacies, critical thinking, and the scientific method can provide fantastic grounding for expeditions into the more subjective side of the human experience.
The word itself is one to use with some discretion given that it was, as far as I'm aware, originally intended to be used in a dismissive and condescending manner.
I follow (on TH-cam) a spiritual woman called Jamie Butler whose line is "It's not woo woo, it's true true!" (more about spiritual stuff than permaculture practices though!
On the colonialism point; i agree whole heartely that the voices of indigenous people are missing from the permaculture space (im very new here but i have noiced this). I am a white person, i was born in south africa and about 10 years ago my family moved to australia. I have a dream of buying a plot of rural land to live and farm on but im really wrestling with the colonialism of it all because im a first generation imigrant from a non indigenous background (ie white south african). I dont know if its ethical to buy stolen land here and use it, but at the same time i need to live...its tricky ans a very emotional subject for me.
Reversing colonialism would require almost all homeowners to give their homes to indigenous families.
Highly impractical and also not fair. I’m an immigrant to usa and worked hard for my humble condo.
You’re right you gotta live somewhere I don’t think you should feel bad about home/land ownership just bc you’re a white South African. 🤷♀️
Thanks!
All excellent, valid criticisms. Thank you.
There's not much to disagree with here (except the woke silliness and her hypocrisy in raising the issue). For people trying to avoid the problems Angela mentioned, William Horvath is the real deal. Reasonably priced course, true expertise, long-term engagement with William when/if you need it, high quality info, step by step direction (which yields a real design, not more admiration of the theory), and real expertise in the course. I'm not affiliated (but I am a happy customer). Accredited? Certificate? I don't care about that.
Permaculture sounds like a value system that flows into a structural method.
Capitalism will always try to coopt and consume. Fight it, friends. Give freely and communally. Find the commons. Protect them.
so with you
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So hard to hear what you are saying due to background noise😕
Sorry about that! It’s the reality of where I had time to film today. Kids are noisy!
I hope this criticism comes off as feedback and not as an attack. This came off to me as a divisive and judgemental piece that actually provided very little value to concerns of permaculture imo. None of it affected me personally bc im a woman brand new to permaculture who has never taken any classes, just books and videos so far. I'm looking to whoever has knowledge to share in ways I find value in. That includes a lot of white dudes. They make a lot of content and are putting it out like crazy. It might not follow all the rules of permaculture perfectly, but like you stated early on, no one should be gatekeeping these ideas, they dont belong to anyone in particular.
Its one thing to criticize a practice, like adding paywalls to content or overcharging, which I'd argue is voluntary and the market will reach a saturation point where it will inevitably become less expensive. Its another thing to judge individuals and their intentions by whats between their legs or the color of their skin. I know you said "not all white guys", but then dont even bring up the color of their skin. Talk about actions or mindsets you find troublesome instead. Talk about alternatives, even referencing individuals who present something in a way you think is better. Individualism can be a beautiful thing when you only consider the person in front of you, rather than assumptions made by things they have no control over (including past actions by people who look like them).
I watch you because you bring me value in my practice and understanding, not because your a woman, not because your white, but because you have knowledge you are willing to share and its useful. Im in the middle of Braiding Sweetgrass. Its a beautiful book and is helpful in my mindset when im outside. But it doesnt really help me get started. Some white guy youtubers might not have helped me with the midnset, but have helped me get started on something that felt too overhwelming at first.
When people find value in someones service or knowledge, they will pay with their time or hard earned money for it. Thats capitalism btw (or at least a free market).I would be in a row home with a cement patio right now without the tons of people trying to make their way and support their families throgh content creation. But with the immense access to information, I, along with millions of others can learn and grow and bring something akin to permaculture back to society. Thats wonderful, imo, and should be considered when thinking about what Bill Mollison and others following him have done.
Id rather you criticize the individuals you disagree with and the acts that may harm others, and alert your audience to poor businesses or classes that may not be worth their time or money. But dont judge people you dont know. Toxic collectivism is just as ugly as toxic individualism.
That which has been asserted as bullshit without evidence is dismissed as bullshit without evidence. Why care about bullshit?
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"Don't listen to them, listen to me." "Lists issues with colonalism but doesn't direct viewers to culturally appropriate resources...instead, just listen to my channel." A whole lot of "they're doing my religion wrong." Namecalling. *This* video basically embodies the problem with the permaculture movement.
I never said “listen to me not culturally-appropriate sources.” I said the opposite. Which culturally-appropriate resources do you recommend besides the two I list in the video description?
I would love to hear specifically what you think the “problem that this video embodies” is? Thanks!
Angela has linked indigenous sources and made it very clear that she feels she should not be speaking on behalf of indigenous people here. She invites them to speak up to this also. She explained her views, and did not require anyone to only listen to her. She invites people to discuss other aspects in the comments. Maybe you want to listen again and review your opinion?
mock trial reminds me of juvenile court. these lawyers were saying weed would kill me.
prolly were trying to egg me on
Thanks!
Thank you!!!!
Asking sincerely…I enjoy supporting content providers…and the money button on TH-cam is so convenient…but do you get all that money or does TH-cam take a cut? Thanks
@@catherine8332no idea about TH-cam but you can venmo her directly (mentioning in case helpful) 😊