208: The Solar Net Metering Dilemma
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 มิ.ย. 2024
- Matt and Sean talk about how net metering affects solar adoption and if it’s fair. Matt also talks with Spencer Fields from EnergySage about the ramifications of the California net metering changes, and more.
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00:00 - Intro & Feedback
07:06 - Energysage Interview - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
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The 'not paying for the grid' is the same problem of EVs 'not paying for roads'. It's a legacy billing issue. Maintenance isn't a 'per kwh' fee. They need to charge *everyone* the same maintenance fee regardless of power usage.
Yep, this is correct.
Also many states charge a massive connection fee. I think PG&E charge 10-20 cents per Kwh, this is more than what I pay for electricity and connection in Utah.
If building over priced infrastructure helps the electric company make more money then they will find every way to pay as much as they for infrastructure.
This is how we do it in Australia (where we have upwards of 30% rooftop solar). Per day supply charge.
In the UK we have a standing charge for this reason… though of course the gov has loaded too much other stuff onto it.
In SC the minimum bill is $13, but in neighboring NC the minimum bill is $80. That's a massive connection fee.
Such a brother vibe
B1: "I'm sick"
B2: laughs
Accusing a 'customer' of something the organisation itself is doing is disgracefully fraudulent. Their commercial model is their responsibility, if the CEOs are admitting their business models are so incompetently punitive - they should resign. (Did I miss any adjectives?)
Here, we just have a standing daily charge + unit charge.
Net metering was always 'grid energy storage' but shocking to see generation is such a small part of the cost - there's clearly room for price reductions. PV panel costs have drastically reduce so if installers are fleecing the market, the cooling of demand should bring them into line.
We talk about demand curves and home generation but surely energy companies have commercial customers who are heating/cooling workplaces to flatten the demand curve?
I think every state should have 100% net metering they’re getting the use of the electricity. I’m generating in a clean way if the electric company wanted to buy land and just have solar farms and batteries they could do so but I’m taking the cost on that on the front end, everyone benefits from thissolar becomes so incredibly inexpensive again a pallet of 30 solar panels is less than $3000 these days just about everybody can afford to look at doing this if there are a homeowner
Awesome info guys, thank you. Currently getting into solar sales and technology, and I greatly appreciate the acceleration from this channel and the folks it brings on :)
So all the people who use gas to heat their homes and water are passing the cost of the maintaining the grid onto their neighbours. At least that is the logic being used to defeat solar net metering.
Utilities shouldnt be publicly traded. They exist to provise a required service, aka a utility, to the folks who require it to live.
That, like Healthcare, should not be for-profit.
Absolutely, all the way
Yep. Societal infrastructure isn't conducive to a private model. It's fair to have gov use private operators to run the service, but the responsibility needs to be to society, not shareholders
Our utility is publicly traded, but it has a fixed rate of return for the shareholders. It does have a charter with the cities and towns for the right to operate on the polls and they do seem to keep them on a short leash.
@@sonictroutOur 'regulated' natgas supplier literally charges us a fee when we don't use *enough* gas. It's called a 'Weather Normalization Adjustment'. Technically they issue credits for cold winters, but not really seeing that being a big expense lately or in the foreseeable future.
After seeing how the power system failed in Texas during the snow storm a few years ago and the state's indifference to the losses suffered by Texans, im not surprised solar with individual storage has become popular. I'd bet they are getting larger storage systems than the average as well.
Just a heads up, I also thought I had a mild "permanent cold"... Nope, it was long COVID, and I just got out of the hospital for unexpected GI symptoms (related). Rest (doing literally nothing at all, like recovering from a head injury) is absolutely vital to your recovery from it, so I hope Sean is taking it easy.
I went for a system that makes it possible to go off grid. At the moment I'm still connected, but it only kicks in to support the batteries when needed. I'm in the process of installing a hot water tank, to replace my electric tank less heater. If my grid supplier decides to penalise me in thefuture, then I'll just cut the cord.
I'm sure there are many others that are thinking about doing the same.
I'm tired of being ripped off by greedy utility companies. Enough already!
The only legitimate impact to energy providers is that they lose out on rate that was used to justify and finance production and transmission infrastructure. Otherwise it's mostly investor owned energy operators complaining about lost revenue used to make financial performance predictions.
Well, if solar installation prices weren't so exorbitant there might be a higher adoption rate. Maybe we could start there.
Re: Texas, net metering is becoming less valuable for most of the state because we get wholesale rates like utility solar plants. More solar drives down wholesale rates during mid day. The next big push is virtual power plants. There's 3-4 companies incentivizing batteries with monthly credits and ability to export after sundown with prices fall.
25:00 I have solar in NY and the price is different between summer and winter also, but my system covers almost all my kWh for the year, so I have no trouble cruising through the higher winter rates on the credits I built up during the summer. I run a little shy and have to pay, but I end up paying in the spring on my anniversary when the rates are at their lowest. So I'm actually making out better. When I pay, my rate hasn't changed in almost 10 years. Before solar I averaged 14¢/kWh year round, now I'm only paying when it's 14 or 15¢/kWh.
In Australia we have Feed in Tariffs.
Consumption can be something like 35 to 40c/KWH and the the feed in Tarrif 8-12 c/KWh (This after self consumption)
There is also a Daily connection charge of 150 to 200c/Day regardless of consumption
In o)ne of your episodes I think it would be interesting to discuss how the utilities cover their overhead in transmission, etc. I believe that this whole net metering discussion would go away if the hook up charge that utilities levy on consumers was made up of only their overhead (transmission, etc). The useage would be only the cost of producing the energy.
I signed up last year for net metering so I am grandfathered in provided I don't need to add more capacity. I have a SolArk 15K and have another set of panels to max out production, but that doesn't require any renewing of net metering due to the agreement being the max value on the inverter. I also have 20kWh of battery storage and will likely add more next year. I am positive the new net metering standards will soon spread here.
I live in Northern California and am held prisoner by PG&E, not allowed to forgo their service regardless of the amount of solar, batteries or money. They will remain on the top of my shit list for the duration.
I ordered a solar last February to get just under the NEM 2 deadline, 8k with battery. My 1st year will be up in August so I will not know until then if I have a “balanced system.” Under this system I pay a monthly “Total Electric Minimum Delivery Charge” of about $50. My YTD charges are about $700 which I hope to clear out by August. More sun and hours through spring and summer.
The battery, Franklin, helps with the frequent outages if I can see them coming and is used to provide power during the mandatory “time of use rate service”. Peak rates can go as high as $.80 kWh
If you believe you have enough solar plus battery to essentially be off grid, have a transfer switch installed between your meter and your solar generator. Only use the grid when absolutely necessary.
"Your neighbor is profiting off of you." Sean's perfect expression of my cynicism.
Decades ago, my Dad told me about his buddy who said, "If you recycle, you're just making the Garbage Man rich!"
I guess people actually think in these terms.
In the 70's netmetering was forced on the power companies. They didn't think solar would take off, so accepted it and didn't care much. Bear in mind though that power companies are in the buisness of selling power. The last. thing they want is for people to convserve or generate their own power. The maintenance of lines is a red herring. Our power company just installed new poles and lines two years ago. Those power poles had been up for over 60 years.
They are perpetually building new poles, lines, transformers, etc.
The way many power companies calculate the value of the power you sell them will cause what I call "stingy solar". That's where i do NOT enter into a netmetering agreement but rather produce what I need and run my house on batteries. I won't sell power to the grid at all. I'll only buy on rainy weeks. Many inverters such as SolArk can measure what comes and goes out of your meter and will make only enough to run your house but not sell any power.
If a customer uses solar and battery, the power company should be very welcoming to customers like that. They can decrease demand during 4-7pm and during noon summer days.
Solar paneled home owners can be treated as less than useful. 😅
Offgrid is the way to go. 10 * 400 watts panels are $900-1200. 5kw off grid inverter $800-1500. 5kwh server rack battery $1200-1700.
4kw system with 5kwh battery material cost around 3-4k.
Cheapest solar instal from Tesla cost 22k for 8kw system without any battery. With battery 33k.
And Tesla is the cheapest solar I can find. Sunrun quotes 40-50k with battery storage.
Labor costs are killing my solar ambitions.
Either I will find someone to put solar panels to my roof for offgrid or I’ll go put myself which is risky considering my skills.
I do not have space for ground mount. I live in MA and pay around 0.34c/kwh
solar capacity factor for your area about 10%, falling to around 5% for winter months. Payback? Likely never. eg. 2/watt installed 10kW cost $20K. Makes about 10kWh annually. at 12c/kWh=$100/mo. $20K mortgage $132/mo for 25 years, you can adjust these numbers accordingly. This doesn't include underperfroming or failing solar panels, replacement inverters that might last 10 years, fire insurance premiums? etc.
I wonder how much of the decline is due to demand being pulled forward to avoid the new tariff.
In the UK we have some very complicated smart tariffs with Octopus Energy leading the way somewhat. A lot are time of use based...and home batteries significantly reward cheap night tarrifs by allowing homes to be run off battery during day...assisted by solar. My export rate is 15p per kwh, cheap import rate 7.5p per kwh BUT grid etc is paid for by a standing charge of c45p per day. Full disclosure....in UK this is still a hobby for higher net worth families...but now with some useful returns from these tarrifs...but most of us assumed at least a 10yr payback
Such a great interview
Its crazy to me how power differs across the country. When i lived in Nevada, Colorado, and now Missouri power has always been cheaper in the winter. I was shocked when I found out a buddy in Philadelphia pays the same price year round. I am more shocked to hear that you pay twice as much in the winter as you do in the summer.
25:08 Maura Healy forced utilities to shift the "summer" and "winter" periods to start Feb 1 and Aug 1, so the coldest month costs are more evenly distributed. "Summer" and "winter" rates should be more similar beginning Aug 1, 2024 which will be the first of these normalized periods.
Would love to hear your thoughts around AB205 in California. It goes a step further than just net metering. It sounds like they want to charge a flat fee based on income.
I have no problem with doing things to incentivize solar panels but it needs to be cut back as the percentage of people with solar grows. I would like to see some incentives for storage to help bridge the transition from when the sun gets too low and the evening winds haven't picked up yet. I would also like to see more developers add ground-mount solar panels in subdivisions because a 50 ft by 110 ft lot can someday be shaded by the neighbor's tree.
Here in Britain we’re moving away from FIT toward bulk generation rateS. I’m in luck, as I have early adopter FIT. until 2036, but I’m still going for large scale storage.
My point of view is I think it should be realized that 1:1 net metering is a subsidy to solar owners. Which is fine!! I think we should subsidize clean enegy. I just don't particularly think that it should be expected or default that utility companies buy solar generated power at retail prices, when they can purchase it at cheal wholesale prices. It doesnt really make sense unless you say it's a subsidy meant to further incentivize solar. Because like you said, 1:1 isn't "fair".
My bill is divided by usage and a set fee for the network.
In thd uk its general between 25% to 50% of a cost of a kw back to the solar owner for the energy sent back to the grid. That said the daily standing charge should pay for the grid operation to the National Grid company which , IS different to the various power firms
I don't have solar but looking at this I'm thinking that people who do, have put a lot of money into their own infrastructure. It's not like they are making a decent interest rate on the money they invested in solar. I had someone explain it to me this way, he felt like he paid in advance for 10 years of electricity at one time and got the opportunity to do something good for the world, instead of a return on the money he could have invested.
The electric company gets solar power added just when it needs it, during the day, the time with the strongest draw. So they are basically using these people's energy as storage banks for energy that it sells during peak times at peak prices.
This is why I don't think the energy company should charge people with solar, they are already making a profit off of them. Basically, the homeowner isn't going to make much, if any profit from their solar, and they risk something like a storm taking it out.
I understand why electric cars should pay for road use, that's fair, but I don't think this is.
If this is fair, then we need to consider paying the home owner's for their infrastructure and repairing any damage caused by storms to their systems.
Granted, I'd like to see real unbiased research. Perhaps I'm wrong but what the solar homeowner is giving the energy company and it's customer is a good deal, especially in places with rolling blackouts.
I want a home battery, whether its a good financial idea or not, dont care.
EG4 from signature solar $9k can get you 30KW I love mine
IMO, power companies should pay customers the same rate they pay other providers..ie wholesale price. 1 to 1 doesn't allow for the power companies to maintain facilities and necessary profits.
Does that include the near outage times when power companies would have to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars per kwh to some provider so that the grid doesn't go down? I would certainly be for the utility paying me a hundred dollars/kwh for a short period of time.
Like the Tobacco Industry you guys are being Bamboozled by the Utilities. Why should a Zero Carbon Solar Kilowatt Hour have the Same $/Kwhr Value as a Coal Based Kilowatt Hour ? For the “Love of God” TAX CARBON !
Seems too limited in scope - look at the world, it’s bigger than the US.