Because that's the narrative no one likes to talk about. Matt and CGC will just gaslight you, give you non answers, or just throw that "We're not gonna do this now" response.
Thanks, Mickey! I know some folks may be tired of talking about rarity but not me :-). More to come. Appreciate your stopping by the channel and opening up the topic.
Great interview and great to hear interpretations of the topic. Some have tried to pin a certain number while others seem to pick whether the book is even relative as a key issue or not. It also doesn’t quite address a newer fact of forced rarity in issues. I have a couple of precode horror books that are rare even by the count on CGC( under 30 or so) but may not be highly desirable like a key issue might be. Rarity does not sometimes equate to the value of a book but understanding how many issue of a certain book actually existing might really help in the end. Wish all these guys that slab books would share there info even more….it would tremendously help the community.
Thanks, David. Totally agree w your sentiment. What most collectors are seeking is a decent estimate of existing copies of books. For extremely valuable books, cgc census serves as a decent proxy. Anything else, it’s highly biased (underrepresentation, especially in low grade).
Great video as always. I have resubmitted a few books in the past and have always emailed CGC with the old cert numbers. I do it after the fact and I have always received a response from CGC thanking me for the information. It always reflects on the census a few days later. Great video and thank you for the great content as always my friend.
Loved the conversation on returned labels possibly influencing the grading. I've often wondered about this. I hope Matt moves forward with some type of monetary incentive. I think that would have a real impact on reducing ghost numbers.
Good interview he answered a lot of questions. I had speculated that as a comic becomes more valuable the more likely you will see it getting graded regardless of the grade. I looked into the rate at which the books were getting graded.
Hi, CCG! Thanks for watching. Definitely. There's a certain threshold -- something like $500 or $1000 a point -- where I believe that the CGC census distribution starts looking like the distribution in existence. Otherwise, the CGC census is biased towards the higher grade books.
Thanks, Marc. Appreciate it. I put out a top 25 video a couple years ago. Will be getting a few great books in the next few months. Perhaps it is time to put another one together!
Great interview Keston! The term 'rarity' can be subjective. Someone can think that because they can't find a particular book for sale that it's rare - and that might be true in that instance. It certainly doesn't mean that there aren't plenty out there, though. When collecting took off in the 70's/ 80's people just sat on the books and likely there are plenty out there. Looking at the census as a benchmark is a pretty good ballpark for the more "modern" books.
Hi, Fenimore. Definitely. In my opinion, it's not wise to conflate market availability with rarity. For valuable books, I would consider CGC census a more reliable gauge of rarity than market availability although the two are highly correlated.
Excellent interview! I always thought absolute rarity is 200 copies or fewer but at the same time if there were only 200 copies of new mutants 98, it would feel much rarer than Superman 1 due to higher demand.
Swpdisciple! Thanks, my friend. I still like the notion of under 200 being rare, which most early golden age comics would qualify for. Ten or fewer seems too stringent to me but I know a lot of old school guys like the more stringent definition (which I respect). The interplay between rarity and demand is an interesting topic :-)
Value is ascribed to print runs as long as it's iconic. It needs to be something everyone knows about but almost nobody has. Like that 1of1 Magic card Post Malone paid 2million for recently.
Thanks for the comment, Roy. Definitely. And, I'm glad you brought this topic up. Lots of cool indy and underground books with small print runs. Using print runs as a proxy for rarity works best for books from 1970 forward. Many golden age books had huge print runs but super high attrition making the once common far rarer than many small-print-run comics.
CBCS and PGX have numerous books graded as well. I know they are nor respected like CGC price wise but they do have high numbers in highly sought after books. I like the point he made on attrition. Golden Age books are more rare and some books do command good price due to that rarity. Demand has a lot to do with it.
In regards to total numbers: don‘t forget the many many raw copies out there somewhere unbeknownst to us, and also there are not only CGC but PGX and CBCS graded comics, and yes graded ghost comics (resubmissions without old labels) are certainly a factor as well
Rarity is supply. By itself, untethered from demand, ain't much. We focus too much on rarity because it's easier to count how many things there are, as opposed to "how many could be sold"
Hi, Ending Soonest. Thanks for the comment. Yeah, if talking about price I wouldn't talk about rarity in isolation. Regarding price, if there is similar demand for a book then rarity will certainly drive up price :-)
I wonder how many ghost copies there are (especially for golden age) for collectors who buy graded books but crack them open because they prefer raw books.
Thanks Keston, enjoyed the interview. Which comics do you feel are the most prone to have ghost copies on the CGC census? This could be an interesting list.
Hi Silverspidey18. That's a good question. I don't have any special insight here. That said, riffing on Matt's take, I'm guessing there aren't many ghost copies for high grade silver or any valuable golden age books. Some of their value is based on perception of rarity, so returning labels aligns interests. Following that logic, in the opposite direction, a ghost 9.6 ASM 300 created by a resub-turned 9.8, is like a drop in the ocean. I still hope someone would return the 9.6 label but the ghost simply doesn't matter as much.
@@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842Hello Keston, I appreciate the response. Yes, it would make sense for collectors to return all cracked labels, especially for high grade comics, I’m hopeful most do. Anyway, I really enjoy your work, thank you! Regards, Trevor
You have a Punch comic book picture on your wall , I’d love to have wall pictures of some of my books, did you go to a particular service for this picture or did you just come across it ?
Ok-rarity is relative to the number of collectors- in other words supply and demand. So, if every single person on the planet, (around 9 billion) aggressively collected comic books, then every single existing comic book today would be extremely rare.
Hi, Christopher. I think that's an interesting take and logically accurate. Personally, I prefer to (mostly) separate out the variables of rarity (supply) and desirability (demand) when discussing comics. That helps me understand the more complex variable of price that is a blend of the other two variables.
Thank you for that. It's a true comment that says very little. These are simply the words of a collector frustrated by this whole... collecting thing... why ? (1)unknown number of collectors (2)unknown number of books (3) unknown number of ghosts (4) unknown number of Hoarders@@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842
Keston, my sincerest apologies for the awkwardness of my last comment. I meant... MY comment made no sense. And your approach to collecting is one I should probably embrace. .
@@christophertomasello1227 Hi, Christopher. Nothing to apologize about. I enjoy hearing interesting takes. I've got another video about rarity in the works (hope to have it out in August). The comments section to my videos helped me think about the topic more clearly. Thanks for adding your two cents my friend!
This is a strange fact Fantastic. Four 1 was reissued and Fantastic Four.2 was hard to find limited amount. And during the 50s had.a book burning. Coverless comics were sold for 5 cents.
Wouldn't every instance of, crack /rehab, resubmit cause a ghost copy? How many on that census are duplicate book submissions? Census affects value. This is a problem if it's untrackable.
Thanks, Lloyd. Great question. If someone resubs a cracked book, the responsible thing to do is to turn in the old label. At which point, CGC will take the corresponding instance of the book off the census. The problem is that it's difficult (impossible?) to know the percent of re-subs that have not turned in the old labels, leaving ghost copies. Long story short...it's not every instance but it does happen, and it is untrackable. It is a problem.
Also.comic books were sent overseas during Golden Age. Also the creation of the 1964 Comcon went national news. Marvel had lower print run due to.DC controlled distribution.
Thanks, Arthur. It's interesting to look at the Marvel keys from the early '60s to the late '60s. By the late '60s, it is obvious some collectors are trying to conserve their books in pristine condition. For example, check out 9.0s and higher for FF 48, 52, Silver Surfer 1, or Iron Man 1...compared to the earlier Marvel keys (e.g., FF1, AF 15, Hulk 1).
Fact #1 - Silver age comics are MUCH more common than golden age comics. Fact #2 - Only a small fraction of all golden age and silver age comics that exist have been sent to CGC.
Hi, Jeff. I agree with you in broad strokes. Generally speaking, the golden age keys are 10 to 100 times rarer than the silver-age keys. And, my guess is that this ratio likely extends to most non-keys. Regarding the books CGC has graded. Most silver and golden age comic books are not worth slabbing, like books of any era.
Hi, CC. My thoughts too. I've heard a few other comic experts say they believed about half the major grails have been graded. Interesting to hear Matt's take: about 2/3 of Action 1s is his guess.
@@comiccollex958 I don't know how many are slabbed CGC but I would estimate there are less than 200 copies of Action Comics #1 in existence and over 20,000 copies of Amazing Fantasy #15 in existence.
Rarity In Age. Rarity In Condition. Rarity In Numbers. Rarity In Existence. Rarity In Availability. Rarity In Value And Purchase Price. Seldom Seen But Hardly Ever Found And Actually Unique!😅*
@@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842 eek well then I guess I have uncommon books! 😉 I think too few discuss the amount of some of the common books out there. But also keep in mind the other side of the supply coin is the demand side too. But that can change w time. I guess supply is more set.
That's an interesting way to think about it. To piggy back, there's sort of a general demand for comic books (sort of like macro-economic factors) but then there are changes in demand for certain genres of books or even individual copies (like micro-economic factors). For a book like Silver Surfer 1, these factors will change more so than supply. From today, supply will slowly trickle down....maybe a few will accidentally be thrown out, destroyed by fire etc...but the supply is relatively stable. ....unless we are talking about market availability which is correlated with existing copies but is more variable. ...that's a long aside...thanks for bringing up the topic!
Rember the Golden Age had paper drives and comic books.were.being sent overseas. Also rember the three quatert covers sold.for five cents. And Yes I.was at the 1964 Comicon with Bernie Bubnis and Ron Fradkin and DC.and.Marvel gave us Artwork given out free.
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Why is no one asking Matt Nelson about the warped inner wells that are damaging the books?
Because that's the narrative no one likes to talk about. Matt and CGC will just gaslight you, give you non answers, or just throw that "We're not gonna do this now" response.
Great conversation Keston! Interesting to hear Matt’s perspective on this.
Thanks, Mickey! I know some folks may be tired of talking about rarity but not me :-). More to come. Appreciate your stopping by the channel and opening up the topic.
Hi Keston, you and Matt did a great job on the interview ! Especially liked Matt’s explanation of returning labels when regrading.
Thanks, Saboten Ken! Good to hear from you.
Great interview and great to hear interpretations of the topic. Some have tried to pin a certain number while others seem to pick whether the book is even relative as a key issue or not. It also doesn’t quite address a newer fact of forced rarity in issues. I have a couple of precode horror books that are rare even by the count on CGC( under 30 or so) but may not be highly desirable like a key issue might be. Rarity does not sometimes equate to the value of a book but understanding how many issue of a certain book actually existing might really help in the end. Wish all these guys that slab books would share there info even more….it would tremendously help the community.
Thanks, David. Totally agree w your sentiment. What most collectors are seeking is a decent estimate of existing copies of books. For extremely valuable books, cgc census serves as a decent proxy. Anything else, it’s highly biased (underrepresentation, especially in low grade).
Great video as always. I have resubmitted a few books in the past and have always emailed CGC with the old cert numbers. I do it after the fact and I have always received a response from CGC thanking me for the information. It always reflects on the census a few days later.
Great video and thank you for the great content as always my friend.
Alex! Thanks for commenting, brother. Glad to hear CGC sends out a thanks message.
Just watched again. I love the history here
Loved the conversation on returned labels possibly influencing the grading. I've often wondered about this. I hope Matt moves forward with some type of monetary incentive. I think that would have a real impact on reducing ghost numbers.
Shane! Yeah that would be nice. Some type of incentive would be appreciated.
Keston, this was an excellent interview with Matt. I learned quite a bit.
Thanks, Carl (I hope I spelled your name correctly). Always interesting to hear Matt's perspective.
According to Overstreet price guide. Rare is 10 or less still exists. Between 10 and 100 is considered scarse.
Thanks, Rick. I appreciate and respect the classic guidance provided by the likes of Overstreet and Gerber.
Good interview he answered a lot of questions. I had speculated that as a comic becomes more valuable the more likely you will see it getting graded regardless of the grade. I looked into the rate at which the books were getting graded.
Hi, CCG! Thanks for watching. Definitely. There's a certain threshold -- something like $500 or $1000 a point -- where I believe that the CGC census distribution starts looking like the distribution in existence. Otherwise, the CGC census is biased towards the higher grade books.
Thanks for the excellent interview Keston and Matt. PS would love to see a video from you Keston showing off some of your favorite books in your PC!
Thanks, Marc. Appreciate it. I put out a top 25 video a couple years ago. Will be getting a few great books in the next few months. Perhaps it is time to put another one together!
Howdy K ! What a Great Show ! How nice you can get the Head Honcho on your Show. Real professional as always. C ya !
Awesome. Great to hear from ya, Tom!
Great interview Keston! The term 'rarity' can be subjective. Someone can think that because they can't find a particular book for sale that it's rare - and that might be true in that instance. It certainly doesn't mean that there aren't plenty out there, though. When collecting took off in the 70's/ 80's people just sat on the books and likely there are plenty out there. Looking at the census as a benchmark is a pretty good ballpark for the more "modern" books.
Hi, Fenimore. Definitely. In my opinion, it's not wise to conflate market availability with rarity. For valuable books, I would consider CGC census a more reliable gauge of rarity than market availability although the two are highly correlated.
Excellent interview! I always thought absolute rarity is 200 copies or fewer but at the same time if there were only 200 copies of new mutants 98, it would feel much rarer than Superman 1 due to higher demand.
Swpdisciple! Thanks, my friend. I still like the notion of under 200 being rare, which most early golden age comics would qualify for. Ten or fewer seems too stringent to me but I know a lot of old school guys like the more stringent definition (which I respect). The interplay between rarity and demand is an interesting topic :-)
@@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842 yes, as a cat that studied economics in undergrad, this is a topic that’s near and dear to my heart!
If we ascribed value according to print run, underground comics would have the greatest value.
Value is ascribed to print runs as long as it's iconic. It needs to be something everyone knows about but almost nobody has. Like that 1of1 Magic card Post Malone paid 2million for recently.
Thanks for the comment, Roy. Definitely. And, I'm glad you brought this topic up. Lots of cool indy and underground books with small print runs. Using print runs as a proxy for rarity works best for books from 1970 forward. Many golden age books had huge print runs but super high attrition making the once common far rarer than many small-print-run comics.
CBCS and PGX have numerous books graded as well. I know they are nor respected like CGC price wise but they do have high numbers in highly sought after books. I like the point he made on attrition. Golden Age books are more rare and some books do command good price due to that rarity. Demand has a lot to do with it.
Hi, Roy. Definitely. Rarity AND demand play a significant role in price.
@@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842 always great videos.
In regards to total numbers: don‘t forget the many many raw copies out there somewhere unbeknownst to us, and also there are not only CGC but PGX and CBCS graded comics, and yes graded ghost comics (resubmissions without old labels) are certainly a factor as well
Thanks OutlawTupac! Good points. Definitely a lot to account for.
Rarity is supply. By itself, untethered from demand, ain't much. We focus too much on rarity because it's easier to count how many things there are, as opposed to "how many could be sold"
Hi, Ending Soonest. Thanks for the comment. Yeah, if talking about price I wouldn't talk about rarity in isolation. Regarding price, if there is similar demand for a book then rarity will certainly drive up price :-)
My dad actually had that Motion Pictures Funnies with first Namor Submariner, Superman, Batman 1st appearances.
Awesome. I hope he gave you some of those amazing books!🤞
There are def ghost copies. I cracked 2 and was too scared to send them back to CGC after what I received. I learned an expensive lesson.
Thanks for sharing, Doc! Definitely. The question is how many, and for what books?
Why were you scared too send them back?
Great interview!
Appreciate it, Derek!
Great wuestions
Thanks, MB. I try my best :-)
"Loved this as well! My friend and I had an excellent discussion. The G man totally approves." 😉would love to connect with you.
Thanks GMAN. Would enjoy connecting.
Great interview.
Thank you, Dan!
I wonder how many ghost copies there are (especially for golden age) for collectors who buy graded books but crack them open because they prefer raw books.
Hi, Jim! Good question. Very difficult to get a handle on ghost copies.
Thanks Keston, enjoyed the interview. Which comics do you feel are the most prone to have ghost copies on the CGC census? This could be an interesting list.
Hi Silverspidey18. That's a good question. I don't have any special insight here. That said, riffing on Matt's take, I'm guessing there aren't many ghost copies for high grade silver or any valuable golden age books. Some of their value is based on perception of rarity, so returning labels aligns interests. Following that logic, in the opposite direction, a ghost 9.6 ASM 300 created by a resub-turned 9.8, is like a drop in the ocean. I still hope someone would return the 9.6 label but the ghost simply doesn't matter as much.
@@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842Hello Keston, I appreciate the response. Yes, it would make sense for collectors to return all cracked labels, especially for high grade comics, I’m hopeful most do. Anyway, I really enjoy your work, thank you! Regards, Trevor
Supply is only half the equation. Maybe not even.
Thanks 1000+! Appreciate the comment. No doubt.
To help with the demand You must add in the 1964 Comicon of New York that created a national market. Plus during the 50s you had comicbooks burning!
Thanks, Arthur. Appreciate your historical perspective.
Well I always send back the labels, even the cheap stuff with thousands on the census
Well done! Thanks for the comment.
You have a Punch comic book picture on your wall , I’d love to have wall pictures of some of my books, did you go to a particular service for this picture or did you just come across it ?
The Punch 12 is a print from Ryan Heshka who does amazing cover re-creations.
Ok-rarity is relative to the number of collectors- in other words supply and demand. So, if every single person on the planet, (around 9 billion) aggressively collected comic books, then every single existing comic book today would be extremely rare.
Hi, Christopher. I think that's an interesting take and logically accurate. Personally, I prefer to (mostly) separate out the variables of rarity (supply) and desirability (demand) when discussing comics. That helps me understand the more complex variable of price that is a blend of the other two variables.
Thank you for that. It's a true comment that says very little. These are simply the words of a collector frustrated by this whole... collecting thing... why ? (1)unknown number of collectors
(2)unknown number of books
(3) unknown number of ghosts
(4) unknown number of Hoarders@@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842
Keston, my sincerest apologies for the awkwardness of my last comment. I meant... MY comment made no sense. And your approach to collecting is one I should probably embrace.
.
@@christophertomasello1227 Hi, Christopher. Nothing to apologize about. I enjoy hearing interesting takes. I've got another video about rarity in the works (hope to have it out in August). The comments section to my videos helped me think about the topic more clearly. Thanks for adding your two cents my friend!
This is a strange fact Fantastic. Four 1 was reissued and Fantastic Four.2 was hard to find limited amount. And during the 50s had.a book burning. Coverless comics were sold for 5 cents.
That is cool, Arthur. Thanks for sharing!
Wouldn't every instance of, crack /rehab, resubmit cause a ghost copy? How many on that census are duplicate book submissions? Census affects value. This is a problem if it's untrackable.
Thanks, Lloyd. Great question. If someone resubs a cracked book, the responsible thing to do is to turn in the old label. At which point, CGC will take the corresponding instance of the book off the census. The problem is that it's difficult (impossible?) to know the percent of re-subs that have not turned in the old labels, leaving ghost copies. Long story short...it's not every instance but it does happen, and it is untrackable. It is a problem.
Also.comic books were sent overseas during Golden Age. Also the creation of the 1964 Comcon went national news. Marvel had lower print run due to.DC controlled distribution.
Thanks, Arthur. It's interesting to look at the Marvel keys from the early '60s to the late '60s. By the late '60s, it is obvious some collectors are trying to conserve their books in pristine condition. For example, check out 9.0s and higher for FF 48, 52, Silver Surfer 1, or Iron Man 1...compared to the earlier Marvel keys (e.g., FF1, AF 15, Hulk 1).
you should do a video strictly about ghost copies to get rid of them off the census...
Thanks Ramone for the comment. I’ll be doing another video or two on comic book rarity and will likely talk more about the census and ghost copies.
Fact #1 - Silver age comics are MUCH more common than golden age comics. Fact #2 - Only a small fraction of all golden age and silver age comics that exist have been sent to CGC.
Not facts and depends on the book. For example I suspect a high percentage of Action 1s and AF15s have been graded
Hi, Jeff. I agree with you in broad strokes. Generally speaking, the golden age keys are 10 to 100 times rarer than the silver-age keys. And, my guess is that this ratio likely extends to most non-keys. Regarding the books CGC has graded. Most silver and golden age comic books are not worth slabbing, like books of any era.
Hi, CC. My thoughts too. I've heard a few other comic experts say they believed about half the major grails have been graded. Interesting to hear Matt's take: about 2/3 of Action 1s is his guess.
@@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842 👍
@@comiccollex958 I don't know how many are slabbed CGC but I would estimate there are less than 200 copies of Action Comics #1 in existence and over 20,000 copies of Amazing Fantasy #15 in existence.
Rarity In Age.
Rarity In Condition.
Rarity In Numbers. Rarity In Existence.
Rarity In Availability.
Rarity In Value And Purchase Price.
Seldom Seen But Hardly Ever Found And Actually Unique!😅*
Haha. Rarity in value and purchase price. That's a good one. Great to hear from you, Steven!
Hey buddy. Thanks for reminding me that my comics are all commons. Hahahha 😊😊😊😂😂😂😢
MB. Good to hear from you. Fewer than 10 copies is such a stringent standard for rarity :-). I don’t think I have any books that are that rare.
@@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842 eek well then I guess I have uncommon books! 😉 I think too few discuss the amount of some of the common books out there.
But also keep in mind the other side of the supply coin is the demand side too. But that can change w time. I guess supply is more set.
That's an interesting way to think about it. To piggy back, there's sort of a general demand for comic books (sort of like macro-economic factors) but then there are changes in demand for certain genres of books or even individual copies (like micro-economic factors). For a book like Silver Surfer 1, these factors will change more so than supply. From today, supply will slowly trickle down....maybe a few will accidentally be thrown out, destroyed by fire etc...but the supply is relatively stable. ....unless we are talking about market availability which is correlated with existing copies but is more variable. ...that's a long aside...thanks for bringing up the topic!
That background music is so subtle. This was an entertaining and insightful interview. Well crafted questions btw 👍
Thanks for the kind words, Latenite. I like putting music in the background but don't want it to overwhelm :-)
Relative scarcity. Are you tripping over X-men 1s no but not too difficult to find
Hi, Christian. Thanks for commenting. X-men 1 is a good example. It's plentiful relative to an Action 1 but rare relative to a Spawn 1!
Rember the Golden Age had paper drives and comic books.were.being sent overseas. Also rember the three quatert covers sold.for five cents. And Yes I.was at the 1964 Comicon with Bernie Bubnis and Ron Fradkin and DC.and.Marvel gave us Artwork given out free.
Glad, you found the channel, Arthur! Wow. Must have been an awesome time to be a collector. What are your favorite types of comics?
Great interview!
Appreciate it, VV.