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I think it would be cool if the will and power of all Sorceresses might be the same, and is actually a collective of consciousness/memory that is passed and inherited. So that negative chain of beings that are hated eventually comes to Ultimecia who infects the past. Since the will/power of all Sorceresses is the same, Ultimecia knows all of their past as she is the final Sorceress in the timeline. She knows/has Griever, which might actually have been born of Squall's existence stuck in time compression. Interesting considering the song Maybe I'm a Lion. Eventually the loop of wills completes, and Rinoa remembers to save Squall. So we see the loop closing, and the will of all Sorceresses end in one of them being happy. Since Ultimecia dies and passes the will to Edea, the loop from that point forward always ends in Rinoa, with a happy outcome.
I just listened to your sequel idea, and think that the collective will and memory idea I listed can feed back in with your sequel. Where the god that created the Sorceresses could be that collective will. So the future of Ultimecia could be the dreams Rinoa is having of destroying the world. Where as long as the god and their will exist, Ultimecia is destined to happen. The ending to your sequel can close the loop. Rinoa is drawn in during the boss death sequence, and Squall disappearing after her. Both seem to disappear, and the rest of the party leaves feeling sorrowful. They can go through the full wrap up of all the threads in the closing fmvs you mentioned, with Ellone telling the rest of the hero party that Squall and Rinoa are just fulfilling a promise (with Laguna giving a smile). Then the after credit scene is both of them standing in the field of flowers embracing, which fades to the original Final Fantasy VIII logo of them.
In my mind, she had already glimpsed the future of her demise no matter how hard she tried to alter it, her trying to kill Rinoa and Squall is just an illusion, meaning, she is playing the part but knowing she will not succeed, so she has no worries of killing both of them, because she knows she can't. What can you do despite knowing your best effort to live a good life, sooner or later, your friends and lover would be dead, you lose your memory, you will be pursued by Seeds and nations who fears your power and that you will be killed by the ones you love, no matter how hard you try to avoid it. Like your fate is written in stone. Like a video that you can watch, but you can't change.
"Depending of what you believe, this game is either an optimistic love story or a complete tragedy." Personally, I feel the best love stories are both.
rinoa represents livin for today so u dont hav regrets later, while ultimecia represents bein consumed n obsessed by ur past n past regrets. hope/joy vs regret/despair
I always took Ultimecia wanting time compression to have everything in one "place" so she could finally find Squall because she couldn't exactly find him and I think theres something to the GF Greiver affecting her memory after a while. I mean Squall and the gang (excluding Rinoa) used GFs for maybe 5 years and forgot about their childhood to an extent so imagine using a GF for MUCH longer .. idk I just love to believe this because it really adds so much to the game because otherwise Ultimecia wanting time compression is for what? Plus Ultimecias castle is where her and Squall promised to meet she probably doesnt remember why she literally chained her castle to "That Place"
According to e French website called finaland.com, it is said that Ultimecia's castle is located in front of the orphanage, not in the flowerfield there... www.finaland.com/?rub=info&page=hypoff-ultimecia
@@chrysm6842 On the final disc you could leave Ultimecia's castle and fly around the world. Can't enter most of the towns. It was probably just for training, you and the world monsters. Try and find out where exactly the castle is located.
Ultimecia extract Griever from the imagination of Squall, i don't know about the English version but in the Spanish she said something like "I will summon the being you fear the most ... the stronger it is in your mind, the greater will be your agony" So she extract Griever from his mind, she took the image of how Griever is to Squall, so the being we fought in the game is how Squall thinks Griever is. Squall said it in the game to Rinoa "Lions are imaginary animals, they are proud and strong"
She’s a great contrast to Ultimecia like the inverse Ying and yang equivalent of eachother, I’ve never understood why the fanbase barely mentions her and she’s developed this underrated status.
I’ve always viewed them as that. Rinoa has white angel wings on her the back of her design, and Ultimecia has black angel wings on hers. I’ve never really thought that they were the same person (and also because the creators at square enix have discredited the theory and have said that they not the same).
Rinoa as Ultimecia didn't know she was fighting her former lover and herself at the end of the game due to having Griever junctioned for so long. There's no way the lore of amnesia as a consequence of using GFs only comes into play in the story just once for the orphanage scene. It happens too early on for it to never be a factor again. I believe that scene was meant to demonstrate how bad it can be, and lets you imagine how much worse it can get if you keep using them indefinitely. Rinoa at the flower field laments about what she thinks might happen to her if she remains a sorceress. Edea gives Rinoa advice on being a sorceress, saying she should have a knight by her side. She postulates that Ultimecia doesn't have a knight in her time. Rinoa makes Squall her knight, and says that it would only be okay for Squall to "pierce my heart." Ellone's motives for sending Squall and co. to the past was to try to get Laguna to stay in Winhill with Raine so he could be with her when she died. She failed, but she tells Squall that it was good enough to see how loved she was. This could parallel Ultimecia's motivation to see the past, so that she can experience that feeling again after her heart turned bitter after losing her knight, Squall, whom she forgot about due to her GF, Griever. Years of being ostracized, of being hunted and hated, of being ALONE, have corrupted her, turning her white wings to black. However, seeing the past with no memory of it in order to see how loved you once were is an exercise in futility. I can see that eventually she would have nothing left to lose, which is a dangerous state for anyone to be in, let alone a sorceress. Junction Machine Ellone is no longer enough; thus her motivations to find Ellone, achieve time compression, and essentially wipe everyone and everything out, because the hell with everyone for treating me this way. Squall and Rinoa later battle each other and don't know it due to the GFs. Squall pierces her heart like they talked about, only neither know whom they're actually facing. This doesn't necessarily have to define the story as a tragedy if you accept that there isn't necessarily a time loop. The story only says that you can't change the PAST; it doesn't say that peoples' actions in the present can't determine a different future, meaning there is not necessarily a concept of fate or destiny. So when they return to their time, maybe things can turn out differently. Even if there is a loop, they are still together, happy, until Squall's eventual death. The theme of loneliness vs. love shines through either way.
YES you 90% nailed it! Original Rinoa (Ultimecia) loops her own timeline to splinter off a timeline where Rinoa does not become Ultimecia, events move in Squall's favor, and the inheritance of time sorceress power ends. Ultimecia is in her own fucked up loop. Time compression is the point at which she "dies" and the end timeline branches off. Imagine splitting a video recording in editor and inserting a new recording between. The second half (game ending) could not exist without the inserted new recording (our heroes confronting Ultimecia). The time anomaly starts at the moment she appears to Edea.
This is very well thought out. There are so many clues that I can’t understand why people just dismiss this theory so easily. It is far more interesting of a story.
@@vincevvn There is an interview you should be able to find on TH-cam where Kitase is asked a bunch of yes/no questions, and when asked if R=U, he held up the "NO" sign, and that's good enough for a lot of people. It isn't for me. I believe this is the kind of story you want to have some things left up to interpretation. So when you are asked a question like that and HAVE TO answer just a yes or no, "NO" is practically your only choice. I think the evidence for R=U is so overwhelming that Kitase shooting it down in that context is not enough to dissuade me. The game practically hits you over the head with it without outright telling you; there's simply too many hints and too much setup to not have that payoff. It's the kind of thing where if you believe that it's true, it's quite clever how they pulled it off, and if you don't, then it's far less interesting of a story like you said. I would go so far as to say that the story is pretty lame without it.
this was so great. Something else interesting about the character of Rinoa is how divided people seem to be on whether rinoa fits or totally breaks the female love interest stereotype. on one hand, people tend to point out the fact that she always gets into trouble, that she has a bubbly personality, and that she (apparently) only exists as a plot device to show squall's growth. The first two points are really just a result of her having a pampered upbringing, and I can't really agree with the latter as Rinoa goes through her own character arc, and is pretty fleshed-out. when you get down to it, Rinoa really broke the mold- she took on the aggressive role in courting squall, and turned out to be the one who saved him in the end, despite needing saving several times herself. all in all Rinoa was an incredibly realistic character, which makes sense if we're to believe the rumor that she was actually based on a real person who worked at Square at the time.
Agreed. The FH date scene is what communicated it best for me, right down to the almost aggressive physicality of Rinoa pushing Squall off that ledge to force a reaction out of him and change his way of thinking. Female leads usually need rescuing but don't often 'force' anything out of the hero through their strength of character. She also rescues Squall in the ending which, again, is usually something reserved for the male lead, so she pleasantly changes things up and is entirely unique as a deuteragonist / romantic foil I think.
Yeah, i get why people would associate her with this stereotype of the girl trying to proove herself while just making more trouble, but she definetely grew out of it. I like the contrats between Squall getting all the leader positions against his will because people think of him as competent more then heself does and Rinoa being seen as a burden by everyone, being the weakest of the group supposedly, yet she still tries her best to change that. For me it came full circle when she was about to be sealed by her own will but Squall was the one keeping her from it, Squall was kinda selfish here and acted against the supposedly right solution at the time for her, unlike that time the 2 gardens had a fight and he seemed conflicted between saving her and standing up to what people expected from him as the leader of the garden. In my mind that was the point that showed Squall learned from Rinoa to do what he personally thinks is the best against logic, while Rinoa learned from him to selflessly stand up to what's the best for everyone. Rinoa and Squall both would have acted like they did back on CD 1 there, really amazing and natural character growth they had over their relationship.
Something to note is that I don't think Ultimecia actually looses. She created a loop that lets her live the cycle on and on, younger Edea getting those powers created that loop, so even when she "dies" she'll get to live out her past again and again. She picks Edea as a prime target to connect to Squall on this loop, who pretty much encouraged Squall, as his destiny, to face Ultimecia. Part of the this theory could be that she does this to keep the loop intentionally keep the past she laments loosing, this could possibly be her past with Squall in this theory. It could be thought that her attacking them is all part of the plan knowing she will lose to him (and friends) setting up the cycle to repeat during the compression. The start of the battle with her, she's very... wacky, loud, laughing and all that. But in the last form, suddenly takes a different tone, and drops the accent, perhaps knowing that the time has come to "recycle," at least if she doesn't get what is at least perceived to be her way in the end. Honestly, if she is the only one that can survive in the truly time-compressed world. What would all that power matter if everyone and everything else is gone? Who knows what happens between the "present" and Ultimecia's future, but it's very interesting. I like the theory because it adds a sense of connection with the theme, as to why she seems to set that loop up in that exact spot. It's tragic for sure.... but it can also be seen as the villain actually winning, as the loop will never actually let her (or anyone in the past she loved) die forever. Had another thought. On the note of Ellone trying to change the past, Ellone realized that she couldn't actually change it, but hoped to at least learn from viewing the past and understand things she didn't before, although they also do apparently say that their is minor influences? Laguna said he felt something in the past, and Rinoa hear's Squall before she's about to pass out? I feel like this could be a similar goal to the whole thing as well.
I always thought of FFVIII to be a time loop like the Terminator series and Forbidden Siren. The cycle is endless. Everything is already set. Any move or action one take, is supposed to be the correct move to complete the cycle. I actually love the thought of Rinoa = Ultimecia. It gives her a much deeper and tragic story rather than just being a cheapo villain.
Thats one theory I had a long time. But the more I think about it, the more unfitting puzzle pieces I find. Sure, time repeats this time. But adult Squall and his folks know about the loop. They would try to stop the time loop. Would be a great sequel with a very uncertain outcome. Adult Squall has to change the past, so Edea doesnt become a sorceress from the start, so she cant be possessed later on. But if our heroes change the past for good, they wouldnt become Seeds in the first place, this means they wouldnt travel forwards and backwards in time to stop Edea, Adell, Artemisia... and everything falls apart and a new timeline is set in motion. - Squall and his comrades would be ordinary people.... - Laguna would still be president in Esthar and Adell is forever trapped in space. - There would be no Balamb Garden, and no war between Balamb and Galbadia. - Dollet wouldnt be attacked. - Rinoa and Squall would never meet - maybe none of the cast meet each other in the outcome... Bonus: Lets say Rinoa = Artemisia is true. If Rinoa never meet Squall and the others, she wouldnt become nihilistic or even a sorceress (who knows). So... that means no sorceress from the future who tries to compress time. So... if Artemisia IS Rinoa, there is only one possible solution to end all for good: Stop Squall become a SEED. Stop SEED before they are even founded. Rinoa cant recruite them anymore, never falls in love with one of them. There is btw no need for SEEDs, when Adell is the last sorceress at this point and she is sealed away forever. Everything changes. Everything.
It's neat that Rinoa got Squall to be more comfortable showing his emotions and letting his friends in more. Squall is still introverted(not a bad thing at all) but at the end trusts his close friends more and lets them in instead of pushing them away. This is thanks to Rinoa. At the same time when Rinoa becomes a Sorceress she start expressing introverted qualities herself and ends up disliking the company of others except her few friends and obviously Squall. So while she taught Squall the importance of friendship in the middle to late game he also taught her the power of introspective strength when you have a lot to process in life.
I personally prefer the "Rinoa is Ultimecia" theory. It, to me, completes the story. I do understand why some fans reject the theory. As far as Ultimecia going insane and wanting to destroy SeeD and Squall, that makes alot more sense than Ultimecia just being a random sorceress going after them. Your final words at the end about "Ultimecia couldn't accept the past" whereas the orphans accepted the past and moved on, I like that contrast between the two.
The theory is... In future, everything seems going well. Rinoa and Squall are in love, their friends are supporting them. But life is just so uncertain. Perhaps at any circumstances, SeeD in all over the world pursuing Sorceress Rinoa in order to seal her. Remember, sorceress is a public enemy, that's why SeeD were established. If public sees sorceress as unharmful person any longer, logic is SeeD should be terminated down sooner. When people and SeeD fight against Rinoa, Squall is standing right there as her knight. Eventually this fight ends up in tragedy, Squall dies at very young age in future. This makes Rinoa sad and mad at very same time and launch her inner evil side, since Adel's power were in her as well. Using magic, Rinoa tries to ressurected Squall but it does not work. In other way, Griever is revived as new founded Guardian Force and it junctioned into Rinoa. Slow but sure, Rinoa loss her memories almost about everything. What she remembers was SeeD is one thing she have to revenge on. In far future when Rinoa finally escapes or wins against SeeD and people in her timeline, Rinoa remember one thing (or maybe heard from someone), that Ellone was live in the past. FYI, Ellone has the power to send one consciousness to the past. Rinoa aka Ultimecia now has a purpose to finds Ellone in order to make Time Compression; she wants to make an static time so that she can enjoy the happiness in the past for the eternity. She might didn't remember about Squall anymore. But she knows she was happy before with someone, and she tries to figure it out in the past. So sad to think about it. Using time machine that created by Odine in the past (in far future, this machine should be improved a lot), Ultimecia posses Edea (since Edea is the only exist sorceress in Ellone timeline; Adel were sealed in space). Luckily Matroan (Edea) succeed escapes Ellone to the hand of White SeeD before, so Ultimecia fails to find Ellone. Heard of this threat, Cid along with Norg establish Three Gardens and create SeeD. But she won't stop there. Ultimecia in Edea's body then claim her throne in Deling City, cooperate with corrupted President Deling and takes him as a refuge. That's why Edea is safe for a long time even when people in the world and SeeD were all against her. And the rest is the FF VIII story. NB: if someone of you argue that Ultimecia had different accent when saying c words in k, such like 'kurse you...', which makes her impossible as Rinoa, then take a look at Ultimecia last conversation with Matron before she passed away. She speaks English accent in normal way! Yes, it means Ultimecia has two accents. Perhaps when someone very upset, some people are able to speak with heavy accent because of emotional sentiment. For example: 'are you krazyyy??'. Nah we used it sometimes in daily right. I mean, refusing theory of R=U just because English accent is just substantiating evidence.
How can it be a theory that's plausible when the creator himself said that Rinoa WASN'T Ultimecia? Seriously, there's theories and then there's blatant selective canon that fans choose to go by. Don't be a moron.
@@misterpantherman7678 the idea behind ultimecia is that she's rinoa... From a different timeline where something went horribly wrong. And for what I've read about the devs declarations is that they don't say anything else. They just said it without any other info about her. The real problem in this case is that besides Zemus. The Great Heyn. Ultimecia. Necron and yu yevon have the same thing in common: zero background story. Or no real impact in the story. Seriously speaking. With hein and ultimecia. O guess is better that they leave their background as it is. A real mystery about their background leaving it to the fans whatever they want to believe. Instead of giving them a shitty story to disprove them
I was just thinking about Ultimecia. If you think about the in game draw system, you can equate what Ultimecia has been doing with the sorceress throughout all time, controlling them from her time, through some machine(I forgot how). When she takes a hold of the sorceresses, one at a time, it seems like she has access to their memories as well as their present day, as well. Remember the ring that Rinoa takes and copies? That, and all of the things Rinoa experienced, about herself, Squall, and the time around her, Ultimecia had full access to when she took hold of her at the end of disc two, into disc three. Maybe Rinoa isn't Ultimecia. (How else would Ultimecia know to make a reference to Squall Dancing with Rinoa in Dissidia?)
Your ability to understand the narrative sharply and properly on its own terms is really refreshing against the wave of narrative deconstruction. And you're extremely articulate too! Good stuff!
About your remarks on Rinoa's impulsivity at 3:08 : I read someone's article about this. Actually Rinoa suggested to discuss a rather good idea about subduing Edea by using the necklace. However, nobody listens to her, they shut her down, because they saw her as a naive amateur.
It’s been awhile since I played the game but I don’t remember ultimecia ever trying to kill past squall and rinoa, hear me out, I remember her sending the statues after rinoa to “kill” her but they reached her immediately and barely laid a hand on her by the time squall reached her even though she was incapable of defending herself, and the part that invited the squall death theory, when he was impaled by edea, instead of killing him he’s healed and taken captive and rinoa whom was literally standing right there, was returned to her father. Doesn’t sound like something someone who wants you dead would do.
The algorithm suggested this video once and I turned it down as I was playing the game. Came up again just now as I finished it a few days ago. You've gained a sub. Rinoa is Ultimecia.
Do you think Rinoa has a more negative reaction to the party playing Eyes On Me (compared to her more favourable reaction to the trad song), at Fisherman’s Horizon because it reminds her of her dead mother and so she’s more sensitive to it not being performed correctly? Just something I thought about during my current playthrough, where I forgot which song gets the best reaction!
Interesting point, yeah there are different reactions between the two correct song choices, and I'd never really considered why that might be! I'm gonna play back through and read those dialogues again, nice spot.
She does actually squall says something during eyes on me playing and she literally flips out and runs off they have a more romantic moment during the other song witch I find it odd since eyes on me is more romantic
FF8 is an infinite time loop where you the OP Rinoa sends a feather to squall in ED to let him know she was Ultimecia. Game is hiding the aspect but I will write down the biggest point for the theory. 1. Time compression room where Rinoa meets Edea has many save points. This indicate that she went there many times. Plus, the Squall ED shows him meeting Rinoa many times. There is a scene where he is circling himself while Rinoa cling to him. I think this indicate the loop part of Rinoa story. 2. Black and White Rinoa picture clearly shows Black and white feathers. Also the OP shows Rinoa coming from black feathers not white! Hence the ending is Rinoa after getting rid of Ultimecia. The one who died came back to Rinoa. Not forgeting after beating Final Ultimecia, white feathers comes out of her. 3. Griever is funny subject but Rinoa says in Japanese whe tries to become a lion when Squall tell her the ring name, Which is what happened in the final battle. 4. Ultimecia Castle is where the promise garden which shows a link between the players and Ultimecia. 5. The logo is clearly shows Rinoa's finger going to become a witch clearly. The sad love story she is losing memory because of the GF. Hence can't remember Squall. But she has feeling which leave all the hints of the place of the castle and the monsters etc. 6. In FF8 Ultimania supposed to be named Eternal. We can speculate that is comes from the eternal loop she is living. This is one is not in the game but "Maybe I'am a Lion" naming is really intresting. If you take the "a lion" you can change it to "Maybe I'am Linoa" In Japanese, the don't have the letter L therefor it could saying"Maybe I'am Rinoa" Japanese analyze it throughly more than any English video I have seen.
Just saying, Squall GF is called Griever for a reason. Grief is ultimately a pain that more often than not, sets us down a very dark path. Meaning that Ultimecia is literally weaponizing her own internal grief, not to mention, that it was stated about the mid point in the game that GF causes memory loss. You could see the transformations that take place during the boss fight as symbolic of the twisted state of her mind as she loses more control during the fight. I wish this theory was canonized because it can in my opinion give way more to work with, and even more to ponder with.
@@Gyrannonthe theory is air tight. Rinoa or Ultimecia wouldn't know their fate for several reasons. The first being fairly obvious in that nobody made the connection that they were the same person. Squall realistically would have been the only person who could have made sense of the context clues and pieced together her identity, but only after he realized he was in love with Rinoa and vowed to be her Knight. So he wouldn't have acted against her. Then you also have to consider the Guardian Force induced amnesia aspect to the story. Ultimecia has had Griever junctioned to her for thousands of years. It isn't out of the realm that this could cause her to forget everything about her past life. Maybe she even forgets about Squall. Maybe all she has left are faded memories and emotion.
Just finished the game today and read up on it. On one han di really want to believe the rinoa is ultimecia theory because this would result in a lot fo interesting themes. Especially the thought of her doing the whole timeloop plan to get back to the good days, yet her G.F. she desperately held on to to remember Squall erasing her memory of him. There is something amazignly tragic about someone waiting thousands of years to bring back someone they lost, only to forget the objective along the way and not even recognizing them when they come back. The evidence stil seems forced to me though sadly. Durign my playthrough i almost expected her to be Ellione since she basically used the same power as her. Still kinda confused about this, i thought Ellione was a witch since she had this power, but she was never considered as a target for ultimecia and i really didn't get how she defeated Adell and cause the timetravel into the future. Still, if she had like an actual relationship to squall this might have made sence, but despite being his sister they really didn't do much
Great video, this theory is always intriguing. You mention how it undermines the game’s themes and character development etc, but your analysis left me with a competing interpretation I wanted to share. What if we consider that Rinoa both is and isn’t Ultimecia? To me, it seems feasible that Rinoa could, in at least 1 timeline, join the SeeD party, prosper through the climactic battle with the evil sorceress in time compressed reality, and return to / bring Squall back from the void to their reality/meeting place-only to still succumb to pain, fear and isolation (negative themes in the game, but acknowledged in Eyes On Me choruses) to become Ultimecia and repeat the cycle. But to me the redemption arc is achieved if we infer the possibility of a timeline wherein Sorceress Rinoa endures the influential trauma assumed by R=U (squalls death, being ostracized, whatever) and passes her power as her lifespan naturally ends. I see it as though, regardless of how many timelines Rinoa DOES become Ultimecia, the manifestation of a single timeline where Rinoa doesn’t become Ultimecia is our more meaningful happy love story ending. R=U adds so much more context to the game’s story in my opinion, so I’m probably just unreasonably resistant to discard the theory. Anyways, great video, just wanted to share my takeaway.
Additional thought on why Rinoa can't be Ultimecia: The theory requires accepting the idea that Sorceresses are immortal, or at least ageless. However that idea is only supported by the one line at the end of the game where it's stated that a Sorceress cannot die in piece without passing on her powers. However I don't think that means what people pretend it does. It's only saying a Sorceress cannot "die in piece" without passing on her powers, not that a Sorceress can chose to extend her life by not passing on her powers. Also, the idea of immortal or ageless Sorceresses undermines themes and plot points of the story. For instance if Adel had no reason to fear, or at least plan for death, Ellone never would have been kidnapped. If Ellone were never kidnapped, Odine never would have studied her and created the Junction Machine Ellone. Without the Junction Machine Ellone, Ultimecia would never have been able to posses people in the past to attempt Time Compression. In fact, Ultimecia would have little reason to want to attempt Time Compression if Sorceresses were immortal or ageless. Her whole reason for wanting Time Compression is to achieve ultimate power by drawing on the power of all Sorceresses caught in Time Compression, and to make her self immortal so that she doesn't have to face death. As you so well pointed out, Ultimecia fears death.
Yes great point, and I've seen the sorceresses cannot die argument in the past, which lends to the idea that Rinoa has survived several generations in a seemingly ageless vacuum. As you've pointed out, this theory would undermine the foundations of the central storyline!
The theory is... In future, everything seems going well. Rinoa and Squall are in love, their friends are supporting them. But life is just so uncertain. Perhaps at any circumstances, SeeD in all over the world pursuing Sorceress Rinoa in order to seal her. Remember, sorceress is a public enemy, that's why SeeD were established. If public sees sorceress as unharmful person any longer, logic is SeeD should be terminated down sooner. When people and SeeD fight against Rinoa, Squall is standing right there as her knight. Eventually this fight ends up in tragedy, Squall dies at very young age in future. This makes Rinoa sad and mad at very same time and launch her inner evil side, since Adel's power were in her as well. Using magic, Rinoa tries to ressurected Squall but it does not work. In other way, Griever is revived as new founded Guardian Force and it junctioned into Rinoa. Slow but sure, Rinoa loss her memories almost about everything. What she remembers was SeeD is one thing she have to revenge on. In far future when Rinoa finally escapes or wins against SeeD and people in her timeline, Rinoa remember one thing (or maybe heard from someone), that Ellone was live in the past. FYI, Ellone has the power to send one consciousness to the past. Rinoa aka Ultimecia now has a purpose to finds Ellone in order to make Time Compression; she wants to make an static time so that she can enjoy the happiness in the past for the eternity. She might didn't remember about Squall anymore. But she knows she was happy before with someone, and she tries to figure it out in the past. So sad to think about it. Using time machine that created by Odine in the past (in far future, this machine should be improved a lot), Ultimecia posses Edea (since Edea is the only exist sorceress in Ellone timeline; Adel were sealed in space). Luckily Matroan (Edea) succeed escapes Ellone to the hand of White SeeD before, so Ultimecia fails to find Ellone. Heard of this threat, Cid along with Norg establish Three Gardens and create SeeD. But she won't stop there. Ultimecia in Edea's body then claim her throne in Deling City, cooperate with corrupted President Deling and takes him as a refuge. That's why Edea is safe for a long time even when people in the world and SeeD were all against her. And the rest is the FF VIII story. NB: if someone of you argue that Ultimecia had different accent when saying c words in k, such like 'kurse you...', which makes her impossible as Rinoa, then take a look at Ultimecia last conversation with Matron before she passed away. She speaks English accent in normal way! Yes, it means Ultimecia has two accents. Perhaps when someone very upset, some people are able to speak with heavy accent because of emotional sentiment. For example: 'are you krazyyy??'. Nah we used it sometimes in daily right. I mean, refusing theory of R=U just because English accent is just substantiating evidence.
@@DanielNevada That doesn't work, as I already stated earlier Sorceresses are not immortal or ageless. And Greaver was created on the spot during the final battle. There is a localization error that makes it sound like she's summoning Greaver as her own GF, but actually what she's doing is reaching into Squall's mind to manifest the most powerful creature he can think of. Also we have very little information on just how much memory loss GFs cause. Squall and co may have forgotten their childhood, but when Irvine brings it up everyone is able to remember it eventually. So if that's how it works and Ultimecia is Rinoa then seeing Squall should bring back those memories. It also seems you try to argue that SeeD would stop existing if there was no sorceress to hunt. But that is clearly contradicted in the game. Up until Edea becomes an actual threat, SeeD is just doing regular mercenary work. In fact, none of the students or SeeDs even knew they were supposed to be training to fight sorceresses. There is also no evidence to support the idea that inheriting another sorceresses powers has any effect on a persons personality. Edea inherits Ultimecia's powers but is still her same kind self up until she is possessed by Ultimecia from the future.
@@ballroomscott Sorceress might not immortal or ageless. But they might have powers to extend their lifespan. Adel for example is the sorceress from the past, sealed over the years in space, without food, and still alive and young. And take a look at Edea that still young and fresh, beside her husband Cid looks like mid age Robin Williams. Regarding Griver, yes it seems too many speculations on our speculations. I guess we can skip it for this moment. In the FF VIII storyline, we can learn that GF cause memory loss like amnesia, strikes our hioppocampus and makes people forget their past. That's why Selphie suggest to write a diary book everyday. There's possibility... If Rinoa juntioning Griever or another GF into her for very long time, this will cause huge memory loss. Seeing Squall won't affect anything to corrupted Rinoa. If they had deep conversation, it might trigger something. But as you know, Ultimecia confronted by SeeD in the very initial of their encounter... Anw this assumption only works if we think R=U. If you reject the possibility if R=U in alternate timeline, we can skip this issue. SeeD is no longer SeeD since the end of war against sorceress. They fully understand their existance; rather to fight sorceress, or preparing for the threat of sorceress in future. That is their main goal, another regular mercernary work such like Squall n frens doing in the earlier just 'second career'. I meant, there's possibilities in future people think that Rinoa is a threat. If this happens, we are very sure Squall will defend her. Then there is also no evidence to suport the idea that inheriting another sorceresses powers has no any effect on person's personality. If so, why people sees sorceress as a threat, why sorceress is treated as a world's enemy? We can think of that sorceress or magic is something harmful, so they need to be sealed to prevent bad things happen in future. This will drive bad experience to Rinoa since she is the exist sorceress in the future. I know what we argue here all is assumption. But this is the only reason why Ultimecia finds Ellone, building her castle on Squall-Rinoa's promises land, hates and tries to destroy SeeD, and want to achieve Time Compression. If sorceress can expand their lifetime as I mentioned before, Time Compression has nothing to do with longevity. Btw you have mentioned that Ultimecia seeking for other sorceress' powers across generations to reach ultimate power. This only works if she search something after ultimate power. What if Ultimecia wants to be the most powerful sorceress so that she can control the time and space? In order for what? She is not insane enough to live alone in Time Compression, it is useless to be the strongest being in universe and alone. It only works if she wants to control the time and space to attain something bigger than the power itself. It is self actualization; to be loved and finding the loved one.
The fan theory makes the Ultimecia character so much deeper and tragic. I like it. Makes the character so much more interesting. Without it, the character feels cheap. It'll be one of the best plot twist in gaming also. If FFVIII were to ever get a remake, i hope they consider the R=U theory. Everything fits. Griever would also be given a much deeper feel. Remember only Rinoa knew who or what Griever was since she's the only one that we know of that Squall told. There's too much to support it.
one Griever stands for bravery and hope, the other one for nihilism and despair. It mirrors exactly Rinoa as she becomes Artemisia over time and personal loss... grieve.
Currently about halfway through the video, I'm just gonna say it: Yoshinori Kitase has confirmed that the Rinoa/Ultimecia theory is bunk. But personally, I say feel free to have your own head-canon. It's nowhere near as stupid as the Shepard Indoctrination Theory.
Pretty cool, you're passionate enough about this that I, as a person who never played this game, stuck around to hear your thoughts on the theory. I love final fantasy 10 in the way you love this game so I can relate. I assume the squall is dead theory is also interesting but not true as well then.
The Rinoa is Ultimecia theory augments the story by giving the main antagonist an arguably much-needed back story and motivation. As mentioned in the video, it also transforms the story from a romance to a tragedy. The Squall is Dead theory on the other hand renders almost everything that happens in the game pointless. It transforms the story from a romance to an "and then I woke up" pointless series of events. That's why I personally don't find it interesting even if there are some decent arguments behind it.
That's an understatement when the writer makes a 1000 hints that one person is another person but won't admit it 20 years later. I do like the game though!!!
I'd always wondered why Griever appeared in the final battle, but the way you explained it reminds me of Gozer conjuring up the Stay Puft marshmallow man in Ghostbusters.
I always took griever to be Rinoa's desperate attempt to bring Squall back to life as a GF after his death It's not worked out fully and that inside that giant Lion Monster is squall sonewhere
I mean, Griever and Squall's connection does add fuel to this theory. I mean, why else would there be a stop in the middle of the battle of the Gardens just for Squall to explain what the Griever is? Plus, it kinda makes sense for Rinoa to utilize the thing Squall views as a being of strength to give her strength.
The theory is... In future, everything seems going well. Rinoa and Squall are in love, their friends are supporting them. But life is just so uncertain. Perhaps at any circumstances, SeeD in all over the world pursuing Sorceress Rinoa in order to seal her. Remember, sorceress is a public enemy, that's why SeeD were established. If public sees sorceress as unharmful person any longer, logic is SeeD should be terminated down sooner. When people and SeeD fight against Rinoa, Squall is standing right there as her knight. Eventually this fight ends up in tragedy, Squall dies at very young age in future. This makes Rinoa sad and mad at very same time and launch her inner evil side, since Adel's power were in her as well. Using magic, Rinoa tries to ressurected Squall but it does not work. In other way, Griever is revived as new founded Guardian Force and it junctioned into Rinoa. Slow but sure, Rinoa loss her memories almost about everything. What she remembers was SeeD is one thing she have to revenge on. In far future when Rinoa finally escapes or wins against SeeD and people in her timeline, Rinoa remember one thing (or maybe heard from someone), that Ellone was live in the past. FYI, Ellone has the power to send one consciousness to the past. Rinoa aka Ultimecia now has a purpose to finds Ellone in order to make Time Compression; she wants to make an static time so that she can enjoy the happiness in the past for the eternity. She might didn't remember about Squall anymore. But she knows she was happy before with someone, and she tries to figure it out in the past. So sad to think about it. Using time machine that created by Odine in the past (in far future, this machine should be improved a lot), Ultimecia posses Edea (since Edea is the only exist sorceress in Ellone timeline; Adel were sealed in space). Luckily Matroan (Edea) succeed escapes Ellone to the hand of White SeeD before, so Ultimecia fails to find Ellone. Heard of this threat, Cid along with Norg establish Three Gardens and create SeeD. But she won't stop there. Ultimecia in Edea's body then claim her throne in Deling City, cooperate with corrupted President Deling and takes him as a refuge. That's why Edea is safe for a long time even when people in the world and SeeD were all against her. And the rest is the FF VIII story. NB: if someone of you argue that Ultimecia had different accent when saying c words in k, such like 'kurse you...', which makes her impossible as Rinoa, then take a look at Ultimecia last conversation with Matron before she passed away. She speaks English accent in normal way! Yes, it means Ultimecia has two accents. Perhaps when someone very upset, some people are able to speak with heavy accent because of emotional sentiment. For example: 'are you krazyyy??'. Nah we used it sometimes in daily right. I mean, refusing theory of R=U just because English accent is just substantiating evidence.
You can say what you want about Ultimecia being a sudden addition to the end of the game, but it's nowhere near as bad as Necron from FF9 who just parachutes into the game and says "I'm the final boss now, RAAAAAGGGHHHHH!"
Great video. The story in this game is so great, I believe they were scared not to make it too complicated, so they left some plot lines, but hints were already build in the game. I also kind of missed that Laguna is Squall dad. I thought Rinoa went mad over the time and transformed into Ultimecia, Angelo her dog was actually a GF and he transformed into this Cat powerful GF. She had her grief only for lost one so she renamed him to Griever. Ultimecia is the opposite to Rinoa. bad-good, red dress - blue dress, white hair - black hair, cat pet(GF) - dog pet (GF). Ultimecia had also Seifer as guardian knight (just like Rinoa had Squall) and like Rinoa she dropped him off because he was not her true love and protector. I believe time compression happened at some point and Rinoa could not find Squall, they could not keep their promise and this broke her. Probably over time her memory was lost and only the her GF Griever remained. She wanted time compression to go back to this very moment. When they defeated Ultimecia in the end , Rinoa has found Squall and he didn't die. The lost mad version of Rinoa from the future --> Ultimecia never happened.
After accepting R=U, the theory for Ultimecias seemingly senseless attempts to kill her long lost lover Squall and past self Rinoa in the time compressed world would be that, the continuous use of GFs over the centuries have drained her core memories to the point of forgetting who they are. So not just a loss of her lover, but a loss of herself, which is an ultimate conclusion to her pessimist view of passage of time. Makes the game that much more fucked up. I like it
20:18 I wonder about the attachment part of the wings basically looking like a loop. They could have chosen to design it in another way, but they chose a loop. Plus, it is a basic guideline of writing that the villain be personally connected to the protagonist, not just some random big bad that shows up out of nowhere and the protag vows to defeat without having any personal stakes in it. That's why the Rinoa-Ultimecia connection makes so much more sense. During the ball she immediately gravitates towards him. As if she recognised him despite the two never knowing each other before. Sure, she says he's the most handsome guy there, but this feels like a flimsy excuse. She wasn't in tne orphanage, she had no motivation to bring Squall out of his shell, unless compelled to do this by a bubbling memory of them being together before
you know what would be cool? if ultimecia's first stage has a second phase where she uses "angel wings" and gives herself haste, reflect (that gets demoted to shell after a couple turns), and protect. for added coolness, her wings could open up and the black feathers could fall off revealing a white layer underneath
I personally don't see the connection between Rinoa & Ultimecia. Edea is a prime example. She was a Sorceress long before Ultimecia possessed her. Did Edea go on a rampage before then? No, she didn't. Both Edea & Rinoa wanted to be good people & were good people. Adel on the other hand was very clearly evil, and even by Adel's appearance, heavily monstrous. Adel wasn't possessed by anyone, heck Ultimecia wasn't aware of Adel til much much later. And if Rinoa really was Ultimecia, then she would've known about Adel, and she would've known about quite a number of other events, such as Rinoa's memory of killing Ultimecia. Ultimecia in the final fight does indeed mention that she will pull the thing that Squall sees as the strongest thing in existence and use it against him. Now tell me, if she was Rinoa and was ALREADY in possession of Griever, what would be the point of pulling it out of someone else's mind? GF's get stronger as your bond with them increases and thus allows them to use greater & greater power, compounded by the power of the user - In other words, Ultimecia's GF in this (dumb) theory would be MUCH MUCH more powerful than Squall's. There are other things to consider: Possession. Possessing someone requires overtaking their mind. The mind is what allows us to control our bodies. But what else is in the mind? Memories and Knowledge. Ultimecia possessed both Edea and Rinoa, then finally Adel in an effort to use that power she wanted to use. Again, lets say she is Rinoa, then her Possession of Rinoa would be like a reminder for her: "Wait, I'm possessing myself, I remember being possessed before" and would've known about her past self's attempt to assassinate Edea, that Seifer would lose multiple times, and that Edea would eventually be freed of her will, and thus would inevitably lead to her death. If she REALLY was Rinoa, she'd have knowledge of events that ALREADY HAPPENED FOR HER. And on to the whole bit of her forgetting Squall and becoming Ultimecia in an effort to find him again: Easy solution: DON'T ENACT THE PLAN, the future inevitably changes, and since there was no "Time Compression" that caused Rinoa to lose Squall in the first place, they'd never lose each other. And how the bloody hell does it make any sense to try to kill the one you love, the one you've been trying to find all this time, multiple times???? Yes, GFs causes you to lose your memories, but as stated earlier, if she already had Griever, there'd be no reason to pull it out of Squall's mind, especially since her Griever would be much more powerful. And again if she were Rinoa, simply possessing her younger self would be enough to jog her memory! And finally, since GFs causes you to lose your memory, then wouldn't she had forgotten about Squall ENTIRELY by then? Seifer was forgetting about things as well and did end up reverting to his old ways, and since Time Compression would have eliminated a huge chunk of her memory, using a GF constantly (as theorists claim) would have significantly erased more of her past, Rinoa met Squall she was a Young Adult, so if she had a GF and had been constantly using it, for whatever reason, the memory of Squall would've been long gone, which defeats the entire point of doing time compression in an effort to save someone you can't remember... How do you save someone when you can't remember them? How can you still love this person when you can't remember them? And yes, Sorceress powers are Inherited but at the choice of the Sorceress in their final moments. They cannot die until they pass on their powers to another. And if Ultimecia is Rinoa, then wouldn't it make more sense to pass on that power to your younger self? Instead Ultimecia gave it to Edea, the very woman she possessed previously. No one is born a sorceress, it was explained and shown in the game ffs. It's like the theorists have been using GFs of their own, otherwise they'd know this fact. Plus he's another one for you all - Edea has always been a Brunette even before she acquired serious power from Ultimecia, why didn't her hair color change? People are claiming that Rinoa is Ultimecia, both have different hair colors, both look young, what would be the point of changing your hair color to match a person you previously fought so hard to defeat? Why get the exact same tattoos? Why dress up in the exact same outfit? Rinoa lost Squall after they defeated Ultimecia, so why make yourself look exactly like the being your lover previously killed?????? Do you see the inconsistencies of this theory??? It makes no bloody sense for Rinoa and Ultimecia to be the same person. Plus, there's another inconsistency to think about. She inherited Ultimecia's powers. She saw Ultimecia's face. Which would mean she would much later see Rinoa's face and have seen the connection. Plus EVERYONE ELSE, they all would've had the same thought: "Ultimecia oddly looks like Rinoa", yet none of them did. Here's a more likely possibility: She's a descendent, not an immediate like daughter or grand daughter, but very likely several generations. Could the descendant inherit the powers needed from another Sorceress? Yes. Entirely possible. It's not passed on like genetics, it's passed on by the choice of the dying Sorceress. And there'd could have been several Sorceresses after Edea and whoever else might've been a Sorceress. It's way more likely that Ultimecia did it for selfish reasons just like every other Final Boss of The Final Fantasy series. Every Final Boss has one goal in mind, more power. And once they've achieved whatever goal they want, they want to destroy absolutely everything. Kefka, Neo-Ex-Death, Zeromus, Sephiroth, and many others tried to end everything. It sounds more like the theorists are just desperate to make the final boss seem relatable in an effort to make her different from the other Final Bosses.
I feel like I already commented on so many of your videos about all of these Ultimecia theories, so please excuse me for bringing it up again. I just think that now it doesnt really matter to me anymore if Rinoa is actually Ultimecia or not. I feel like there is a solid thematic basis for basically any possible interpretation of FF8s events and I think that is beautiful in itself. Wheather the Antagonist serves as a tragic figure with a close connection to the main party or as an enigmatic personification of the games themes, I think it now works for me either way. The fact alone that the themes and the games events can be interpreted in multiple ways like that is really interesting to me, even if it did bother me for quite some time. Other than that I feel like its important to respect the interpretations and theories of others, especially since I have already seen so many arguments become toxic between fans about which idea is right and wrong, when it mostly just depends on our own individual look at the games themes and how we ourselves would rather have it.
Anybody else think Rinoa & Ultimecia are stuck in a time loop? A time loop created bu time distortion. Ultimecia will always return to squalls orphanage and Rinoa will always search & seek Squall at the dance. Always trying to relive her love while unable to change its fate.
I really, really liked this video. I was only 12 when I played this game. I remember thinking Rinoa was so annoying, but cool. I wanted to be cute like her and to...STICK IT TO THE MAN! This game was so much more complex than I remember. The theory you went over was so interesting to me. I'm older now, so it seems I need to play this game and see everything I never really noticed. Thank you so much for sharing your brilliance with us. ⭐
The game is absolutely filled with things that scream R=U but to me the biggest is when Squall and Rinoa agree that if they ever get lost, they'll meet at the flower field - she'll be waiting for him there. Later, Ultimecia's castle is in that exact spot. I mean come on. When Kitase "denied" it he had to be winking. Either that or he and the writer aren't on the same page. I didn't play Dissidia but I've heard there's even more R=U stuff in the game.
I like your point about the location of her castle! I'm sure I'd read a counter-argument to that somewhere too, like Ultimecia went back in time to kill Squall and knew the Rinoa promise would lead him there? Not sure, but a lot of discussions exist about the subject which keeps it interesting!
FF Mobius also made Ultimecia do Rinoa's trademark. Maybe that's just for enticing the fans, or maybe that's a hint.. who knows. Yeah, sometimes I thought maybe the representative speaker was not on the same page as the writer, or maybe not.. who knows..
Kitase, said Rinoa and Ultimecia is not the same person. While true, you can also say, a person who lost her memory and whose personality is now the complete opposite of what she had is not the same person that you know of. Semantics and mind games.
I've never thought of R=U as being at all Canon but rather that Ultimecia is the representation of all the things people fear and hate of sorceresses while Rinoa Represents all the positive aspects of sorceresses that people don't get to see
In the book entitled The Legend Of FF VIII, I also read that Rinoa/Ultimecia theory and I was astonished some ppl couold actually think that. It's brilliantly debunked on the book, if I remember well. Thanks a lot for this vid, I like it most rather than the one on Squall, tbh. ++
So, after recently beating the game again, I'd like to throw in an additional bit that got me to thinking more about this theory, as a sort of amendment to my other comment I left. I never noticed in the original as a kid, in the final form of Ultimicia, that the lower half of her is a body, junctioned to the top, faceless part that addresses herself as Ultimicia, possibly being her "true" form. She has to draw Apocalypse from the dangling body in order to cast it. Maybe Ultimicia isn't actually Rinoa... but instead had possessed the future Rinoa as a host body and has stayed Junctioned to her, like Adel had done to Rinoa. It got me thinking and wanting to find more about this idea but it seems more elusive than just the theories saying she is or isn't. They, suspiciously gave Rinoa Apocalypse in Dissidia. It could perhaps be that the entity of Ulitimicia has actually preyed on the intent and memories of Rinoa in the future or became one by some other tragic thing that sort of plays into a lot of the hints to the theory as well. Perhaps Ultimicia is an entity separate from Rinoa, but lives on through her in some part of the weird time shenanigans going on in this game. I know that when you go to target her lower half, it's also just named "Ultimicia" but at that point, it could just be that the two are passed junction and truly are one by that point, or at least Ultimicia has made it so. It's just an interesting hint as to what might actually be going on. A sort of host/parasite situation. In a way, maybe both answers are true.
Interesting point of view! I just finished the game today (after 15 years or so when I have played the PSX version) I love both FFX and FFVIII and replayed them as remastered versions. The more recent beeing FFVIII. It happened, that I have noticed some similarities in styles: e.g. costumes in 8 look like priestress robes in FF10. Also some people behave like Guados (long arms..) and then the final form of Ultimecia. As you stated, she has two body parts. Like Anima. For I am not a skilled gamer by means of active time battle system, I couldn‘t enjoy other titbits throughout the fight. So great to see the fan theories and attentiveness of other gamers! thanks for sharing your thoughts.
It just never made any sense how ultimecia came to aquire griever until this theory came out.. But now they say it's not the case.. Soooo, how did ultimecia end up with griever then? Someone please clarify...
The theory is... In future, everything seems going well. Rinoa and Squall are in love, their friends are supporting them. But life is just so uncertain. Perhaps at any circumstances, SeeD in all over the world pursuing Sorceress Rinoa in order to seal her. Remember, sorceress is a public enemy, that's why SeeD were established. If public sees sorceress as unharmful person any longer, logic is SeeD should be terminated down sooner. When people and SeeD fight against Rinoa, Squall is standing right there as her knight. Eventually this fight ends up in tragedy, Squall dies at very young age in future. This makes Rinoa sad and mad at very same time and launch her inner evil side, since Adel's power were in her as well. Using magic, Rinoa tries to ressurected Squall but it does not work. In other way, Griever is revived as new founded Guardian Force and it junctioned into Rinoa. Slow but sure, Rinoa loss her memories almost about everything. What she remembers was SeeD is one thing she have to revenge on. In far future when Rinoa finally escapes or wins against SeeD and people in her timeline, Rinoa remember one thing (or maybe heard from someone), that Ellone was live in the past. FYI, Ellone has the power to send one consciousness to the past. Rinoa aka Ultimecia now has a purpose to finds Ellone in order to make Time Compression; she wants to make an static time so that she can enjoy the happiness in the past for the eternity. She might didn't remember about Squall anymore. But she knows she was happy before with someone, and she tries to figure it out in the past. So sad to think about it. Using time machine that created by Odine in the past (in far future, this machine should be improved a lot), Ultimecia posses Edea (since Edea is the only exist sorceress in Ellone timeline; Adel were sealed in space). Luckily Matroan (Edea) succeed escapes Ellone to the hand of White SeeD before, so Ultimecia fails to find Ellone. Heard of this threat, Cid along with Norg establish Three Gardens and create SeeD. But she won't stop there. Ultimecia in Edea's body then claim her throne in Deling City, cooperate with corrupted President Deling and takes him as a refuge. That's why Edea is safe for a long time even when people in the world and SeeD were all against her. And the rest is the FF VIII story. NB: if someone of you argue that Ultimecia had different accent when saying c words in k, such like 'kurse you...', which makes her impossible as Rinoa, then take a look at Ultimecia last conversation with Matron before she passed away. She speaks English accent in normal way! Yes, it means Ultimecia has two accents. Perhaps when someone very upset, some people are able to speak with heavy accent because of emotional sentiment. For example: 'are you krazyyy??'. Nah we used it sometimes in daily right. I mean, refusing theory of R=U just because English accent is just substantiating evidence.
The "official" explanation is that Ultimecia took it from Squall's mind during the last fight. It's Squall's idea of the most powerful GF...even though Squall never actually referred to Griever as a GF. Further, Ulti never specifically said she took it from Squall's mind. It's a BS explanation.
But she does explain that she will use the protagonist fears to defeat them. Hence Griever... Because she can also access Squall's memories since she mentions the orphanage and all...
It's harder to explain why Rinoa isn't Ultimecia than it is to explain that she is Ultimecia. There is no way the writers accidently gave 1000 hints to Ultimecia being Rinoa. The only explanation that Rinoa isn't Ultimecia is the writers were literally not paying attention to what they were writing. If Ultimecia is just some random sorceress than there is no point in putting her castle on the place Rinoa said she'd wait for Squall, Griever, Rinoa telling Squall that he might have to kill her and the freaky ending that literally blends Ultimecia and Rinoa together. Also when Ultimecia tells the people to bow to the new sorceress in Edea's body she has Rinoa on the stage as well.
Absolutely beautiful analysis! I'd love to add two more points to the R=U theory for you to consider. 1) Sorceress lifespan. We don't know for sure what is meant by "a sorceress cannot die as long as she has her powers", but i interpret it as sorceresses are immortal and do not age. One uncanny piece of evidence to support this is how Edea in the endgame party FMV looks identical to the Matron from 13ish years ago. Considering other works that explore immortality, specifically the tragedy of the elves in lord of the rings, I think being a sorceress would have a profound effect on Rinoa's psyche and outlook on life, especially as time passes and others age while she doesn't. I think she would grow to be less and less like the Rinoa in the game as more time passes, unless she manages to find a successor (as far as we know, she is the only sorceress remaining at the end of the game and it's an open question whether she will find a successor.) In any case, until Square canonizes either a successor for Rinoa or another sorceress from a different lineage, we have to assume Rinoa IS Ultimecia 🙃 2) Hyne. I think in discussing Rinoa becoming Ultimecia, we can't leave out the context of the origin of sorcery itself. We know from the old man in Balamb and the teacher on the white seed ship that Hyne created humans to be his tools, who revolted against him and were able to corner him. Why did he disperse his powers into human women? Why can these women pass their powers on? My personal theory is Hyne, a god, has been waiting eons for his powers to reunite in one being, presumably Ultimecia. Her very name implies she is the "ultimate", the "end of a process", i.e. the end of the succession. To your point about the inherent contradiction of a Rinoa-Ultimecia going back in time to kill herself, I believe that it's because she's not quite herself -- the combined power of Hyne has overwhelmed her mind to restart his war, triggered by a tragic loss such as Squall's death. But it could be Rinoa's hope to see her friends again left a kind of impression on Hyne, inspiring him to use time compression as his vehicle to conquer humanity -- which has the interesting side effect of combining every moment into one, allowing now to last forever. I think this theory of mine resolves a contradiction in ultimecia, how on the one hand she aggressively seeks dominance and to make humans her slaves forever, while at the same time giving her cryptic lamentations about time. A sort of split-personality duality in her between the powerful and dismissive Hyne and the loving, grieving Rinoa i think would be quite fascinating to see developed.
Cheers John. Yeah good points on the immortality aspect particularly around Edea through the games timeline. I'm also interested by the Hyne mythology which isn't fully explained to us, I do wonder if they'll revisit that in future
the only good rinoa/ultimecia video i've seen, thank you. i agree with you, a lot of the theory makes sense, but trying to kill her younger self is where it really loses traction. I also liked the Seifer is the antithesis of Squall as Ultimecia is to Rinoa opinion you threw in there, that rings true for me. From the very beginning of the game we see Squall and more or less his opposite in certain ways much like Neo/Smith, so it would make a lot of sense to also give Rinoa this dynamic by comparing her bright personality to Ultimecia's hatred for all things.
Damn. as many times as I've played this game I never picked up that Julia is Rinoa's Mother. How did you figure that one out? I guess they tell us at some point I must have missed it
Yeah I didn't notice it for ages! If I remember right, in the Laguna flashback dream where Kiros visits Winhill, there's a dialogue option where Raine/Kiros mention Julia writing 'Eyes on me' about a love that never returned (Laguna), and then marrying General Caraway. There's also an 'Information' panel about characters somewhere in the menu screen that has biographies after you meet/mention certain characters.
During one of Laguna's flashback, Raine states that Julia was so depressed since her love interest didn't come back from war (Laguna) that she composed the song Eyes on me and was solaced by general Caraway. And we know that Caraway is Rinoa's dad so...
The point is that the impossible love between Laguna and Julia is finally made real through their sons Squall (Laguna and Raine) and Rinoa (Julia and Caraway). When they met at the party, they dance a waltz version of the Eyes on me song.
Rinoa is not Ultimecia. This is not even open to debate. One literally has to ignore the story and official interviews to believe that. I do not know why these comments still exist.
Yeah, can we focus on something less stupid and more interesting cuse theres so fucking much to unpack from how beautiful this game is and all anyone talks about is “rinoa = Ultimicia 🤯”
I made a comment here that also points out how in the game Ultimecia is said to be from 'generations' into the future, and there's no indication that sorceresses live longer than normal, so she couldn't even be alive then. I don't know why FF8 has some of the most stupid theories floating around it.
The theory is... In future, everything seems going well. Rinoa and Squall are in love, their friends are supporting them. But life is just so uncertain. Perhaps at any circumstances, SeeD in all over the world pursuing Sorceress Rinoa in order to seal her. Remember, sorceress is a public enemy, that's why SeeD were established. If public sees sorceress as unharmful person any longer, logic is SeeD should be terminated down sooner. When people and SeeD fight against Rinoa, Squall is standing right there as her knight. Eventually this fight ends up in tragedy, Squall dies at very young age in future. This makes Rinoa sad and mad at very same time and launch her inner evil side, since Adel's power were in her as well. Using magic, Rinoa tries to ressurected Squall but it does not work. In other way, Griever is revived as new founded Guardian Force and it junctioned into Rinoa. Slow but sure, Rinoa loss her memories almost about everything. What she remembers was SeeD is one thing she have to revenge on. In far future when Rinoa finally escapes or wins against SeeD and people in her timeline, Rinoa remember one thing (or maybe heard from someone), that Ellone was live in the past. FYI, Ellone has the power to send one consciousness to the past. Rinoa aka Ultimecia now has a purpose to finds Ellone in order to make Time Compression; she wants to make an static time so that she can enjoy the happiness in the past for the eternity. She might didn't remember about Squall anymore. But she knows she was happy before with someone, and she tries to figure it out in the past. So sad to think about it. Using time machine that created by Odine in the past (in far future, this machine should be improved a lot), Ultimecia posses Edea (since Edea is the only exist sorceress in Ellone timeline; Adel were sealed in space). Luckily Matroan (Edea) succeed escapes Ellone to the hand of White SeeD before, so Ultimecia fails to find Ellone. Heard of this threat, Cid along with Norg establish Three Gardens and create SeeD. But she won't stop there. Ultimecia in Edea's body then claim her throne in Deling City, cooperate with corrupted President Deling and takes him as a refuge. That's why Edea is safe for a long time even when people in the world and SeeD were all against her. And the rest is the FF VIII story. NB: if someone of you argue that Ultimecia had different accent when saying c words in k, such like 'kurse you...', which makes her impossible as Rinoa, then take a look at Ultimecia last conversation with Matron before she passed away. She speaks English accent in normal way! Yes, it means Ultimecia has two accents. Perhaps when someone very upset, some people are able to speak with heavy accent because of emotional sentiment. For example: 'are you krazyyy??'. Nah we used it sometimes in daily right. I mean, refusing theory of R=U just because English accent is just substantiating evidence.
@@DanielNevada Sorceresses are not immortal, they all die. And it is said that only one Sorceress exists on each generation so basically Rinoa can't live during Squall's timeline then be dead and then gets back to life in the future : it doesn't make sense. She can't exist on 2 different eras. Ellone's power is quite limited as she states during the game that she can only access the memories of someone she knows (that works for Squall but not for Rinoa, for instance). And, of course, if SeeD manages to kill Squall because he's Rinoa's knight, then that means Rinoa is actually captured and if she's captured, she can't do any harm (just like Sorceress Adel was captured and put into space).
I don't understand how one of the directors who shot down this idea could dislike the concept of Rinoa and Ultimecia being the same person so much. If this were leaned on further in any potential remake, I think it'd fill some of biggest holes the story leaves (not plot wise, but as in you feel like there's something missing to the narrative) and make ff8 stand out further. It already has Rinoa being a near perfect foil to Ultimecia, but Ultimecia is a foil to Squall as well with this theory; where as Squall starts off introverted then later opens up through the force of love, Rinoa starts off as a happy extrovert who loses her sanity and becomes isolated through the loss of love to become Ultimecia. I think it's the theory I prefer over Squall being dead (which the same director liked and said they'd consider for a remake). Plus there's some more rebuttals against it (not that I dislike the theory at all), mainly Ellone and the various mentions of gf usage being linked to memory loss, even Irvine's rather dramatic introduction and hesitance to shoot Edea. The story was always meant to be fantastic and out there, I don't think the shift between the tones between disks is that big of a deal.
Why couldn’t they have remade THIS game instead of FF VII, SquareEnix always gives attention to FF VII, and great games like this one really suffer because of it. If they remade this game, so many new changes could be made because it involves Time, and Ultimecia being able to manipulate it to her liking. All the great theories that all of us fans spoke of and thought about, could actually become Canon and True, if SquareEnix were to ever surprise us with a Final Fantasy VIII Remake. It would be awesome if they gave players great choices to have branching paths throughout their quest if Final Fantasy VIII was ever remade. Just imagine the great possibilities of storytelling 🤔. Characters like Squall, Rinoa, Irvine, Seifer, Laguna, Edea and Quistis would all be very different if they were given certain choices throughout the Final Fantasy VIII game.
It does feel like a lot of the time travel/ paradox ideas being alluded to in FF7:R would make more sense for an FF8 sequel since time compression is such a huge part of the plot. But yeah, I would hope the success of FF7 Remake would make them look at FF6 or FF8 for remakes too
I always knew Rinoa wasn’t Ultimecia, it was so funny is school when I was the only one that said she was a broken lonely sorceress from the future trying to get back what was taken from her, and the others said she was Rinoa. Glad I was finally proved right lol
My theory is ultimacia is the daughter of rinoa and squall from the distant future.. And i believe she hates her dad so much and is also obsessed of her mothers sorceress powers that she tricks her to transfer her powers to her. Rinoa and Squall didnt have time for ultimacia for squall is busy being the commander of balamb garden and Rinoa the sorceress, became the most loved ruler of her country with the help of Squall. Ultimacia grew up hating her parents that shes obsessed on destroying her dad and SeeD that the only way is time compression. Ultemacia cant destroy her dad in her time because Squall was too powerful for her and she also wants to stop the founding of Garden to stop creating future Seeds and by doing that she needs time compression so that she wouldn't worry and stil exist in the world. Ultimacia stole the ring from rinoa because she knew it was the symbol of her parents love, that ultimacia creates it into a GF so that symbol will be the one to destroy them. Ultemacia was told a story from her grandfather laguna about her Aunt Ellones ability to bring the consciousness of people back to the past and she also learned about the junction machine ellone that Dr. Odine invented which the doctor get the idea from the ability of ellone. Ultimacia has the same appearance as her mothers white angel wings but Ultimacia has black wings for she was corrupted and obsessed with power and immortality while her mother was a pure kinded sorceress with the help of squall, rinoa kept in her mind and put it her heart what the previous sorceress Edea advice her to always have your knight by her side and Ultemacia doesnt have knight and maybe this is why she became psychotic.
@@chrysm6842 i never said it was hereditary... Its either rinoa was tricked or killed by ultimacia so that rinoa can transfer her powers to her so she could die or ultimacia found a way to extract a sorceress powers. ultimacias timeline was the future so its not impossible and there is a big chance that the scientists odin help create that kind of machine, its possible because he even built a machine that has the same function as ellones powers.
@@AlleywayJack honestly it’s such a good theory. If it’s a coincidence than it’s just divine intervention lol. I was so happy when I saw the video where they said it’s entirely possible. Let me get my tinfoil hat back
As has been stated several times the devs debunked the R=U theory and I believe it was stated I'm the game that Ultimecia was a powerful sorceress from her time but was constantly under attack by SeeD and her actions in the past created a stable time loop where her and Squall end up at the orphanage where Squall tells edea about SeeD thus giving her the knowledge to create SeeD then Squall becomes a seed defeats Ultimecia then who knows how long in to the future a young Ultimecia is born and at some point gains her power later the SeeDs attack her she retaliated and this started a war between them ultimecia then uses the machine of ellobes powrr to transfer her mind to edea thus starting the events of the game and eventually leading to her defeat and at the end/beginning of the loop
Ultimecia trying to kill Squall and Rinoa is not a plot hole for the theory. According to the theory Ultimecia forgot Squall and that she was Rinoa because she used G.F. for a long time. But in the end I still don't believe the theory anymore. It kinda ruins the theme of FF8.
That could be but another thing I wonder is at the end Squall gets stuck in a time loop and I sort of wonder if that was Ultimecia's plan from the beginning. She was also trying to kill her former self because that was the only way Squall would escape the time loop.
I reckon ultimecia could be rinoa, without it being a tragic ending. What if ultimecia is rinoa from the future, but when you kill ultimecia, that timeline where rinoa becomes ultimecia dissapears. And rinoa then goes on to live happily. So just like rinoa helped squall fight his own inner demons, squall also fought rinoas inner demon, literally. I think thats the best of both worlds. Its still a happy ending.
i saw somebody's opinion mentioning that, in FF1, the heroes need to break the time loop to get their happy ending; while in FF8, they need to maintain the time loop of defeating Ultimecia so that they will not get the tragic ending. But i also like your idea.
I’ve always thought that the sorceress spirit was some evil timeless entity that has always existed (as far as the games plot is concerned.) to enslave humanity for some unknown reason. Sin maybe? Who knows. Anyway… The possibility to me is time compression wasn’t just the compression of all time, but all timeLINES as well (think dr strange in avengers.). Rinoamecia realizes through this that the only way to defeat the entity and save everyone is for the fated events to happen, including Squall surviving his fight with Edea and the icicles to the chest, which could have been a major turning point. It’s possible she felt guilty for it feeling like she much caused it to happen both through her impulsiveness and the sorceress spirit itself as Edea. Anyway, Rinoamecia sets the games coincidences in motion before completely succumbing to the sorceress spirit (because as we see in game, sorceress puppets still existin the body they are just possessed. Edea is a major example of this I think.). It seems also that the sorceress spirit’s motivations are to Rule the world, not freeze it in a sort of time compression. Both sorceresses we see in game besides Ultimecia existed alongside humans but to subjugate them not eradicate them. It’s a strange shift in what the true antagonist’s intentions are to me; very different brands of evil if you will. The entire plot is really ambiguous anyway. So many random, poorly explained elements, and this is from a guy who loves the golden era of final fantasy without exceptions. I actually feel that all of those games’ endings were intentionally left up for interpretation. Even 9, wtf was Necro? It ultimately adds charm, and community through theories like this, and keeps people talking about it to this day. Now whether intentional or not? Who can say.
It is saif that Ultimecia is a Sorceress from the future. And if you believe she is Rinoa, then it would be a time paradox to have both Rinoa and Ultimecia at the same time, enbodied by 2 different bodies.
Why would Ultimecia- while possessing Edea- feed her own self (Rinoa) to the Iguions? Ultimecia conjured the GF "Griever" because it would be a mindf*ck for Squall to defeat it, since it is, for a lack of a better term, his spirit animal.
I want to remind everybody in the comments who hasn't picked up on this yet, but the Ultimecia = Rinoa theory has already been debunked by the devs. They did however show interest in it and they like it. Take it as you will, I would have been fully content with the theory being confirmed, but let's not get ahead of ourselves and start assuming things to be true when they aren't. Bottom line is however, that both characters are great to compare and as many stated, they can add a lot of depth to each other. But they are not the same person.
It changes the context a little when you consider that the localization team gave Caraway a promotion from Colonel to General. That's kind of a big difference in how important Fury is to his government, though it does explain why he has to resort to a crappy and cobbled together assassination plan (ironically similar to what his daughter would probably do [aw...they're more similar than they think]) instead of a more formal coup (and maybe an assassination too, but more organized, since the Witch [localized as Sorceress but not changed in the OST names] is clearly bad news). The whole androgynous term 'witch' also might explain how the very masculine (and probably a man) Abel (localized as Adel) can be a witch, despite how that goes against the whole Hyne-related origin story about only giving the power to females. It does lead to a lot of Manwich jokes, though.
So guys, can you give me an answer, is Rinoa and Seifer do "that". I know the romance squareenix put her suvk, i just want a clarification from SE about this. I buy this game for a 50$ and you give me this suvk romance. Give me your clarification
First of all, FF VIII was made by squaresoft (not by SE since the fusion came to fruition years after FF VIII was made). Yes, Seifer and Rinoa had a romance love affair together. It is mentionned in the game, when it's said that Seifer must have been executed after what he did in Timber (when he captured president Deling and threatened his life).
He doesn't exactly retract it, though. He's just it wasn't something he was considering when working on the story, but it's possible the other writers were.
I believe in all Theories there are so many hinds and connections between rinoa and ultimecia .... the problem is ultimecias Story was undeveloped the game doesnt have much content about her I hope they change it in the future remake I dont care that square denied All These theories fact is they both look similar both have connection with griever and also when the time compression Comes u See rinoas face being futured to ultimecia so wtf square soft and thats Not all there are many many other hinds
I think Ultimecia is Rinoa's and Squall's or Seifer's Offspring. Odine bangle that she owned before even meeting Seeds, it is suppressing her sorceress power. So most likely she would not have become evil on her own, However a granddaughter in the future? Inheriting her Sorceress Power namely White Wing turned Black Wing, if only because of her being Persucated perhaps they found a way to kill Sorceress for good without them passing on their powers? And Ultimecia hunted etc just snapped went mad with rage and killed shit. it is implied that she learned of Seeds coming to kill her but perhaps it's rather than Squalls Timeline of Seeds that there were some Seeds still alive in her own timeline that she thought COULD kill her. And she decided time travel unmake the existence of seeds before me meaning no Seeds, nothing to worry makes sense no? Think about it she is mad as a hat popping out rabbits.
Also if you want to state Sorceress needing a knight to not go dark well to put it simple Seifer wanted to become a Sorceress Knight regardless of Seed or not so most likely no Seeds=Army man Seifer meets Rinoa who is a daughter of a general. or Squall becoming a Soldier like his 'dad' started out to be to put it simply. Ultimecia was probably fated to die at hands of Seeds, all she probably did in the past was make her death a never-ending escape-able circle of death in a time loop.
For myself, I think that the narrative and themes of the game really push towards the reading that Ultimecia is a potential version of Rinoa. As you have stated, Rinoa's pathos and existential angst over the uncertainty of the future and the loss of self, married with the fear of persecution, mirrors Ultimecia's situation where all of those fears become validated. On the Ragnarok, Rinoa said something along the lines of "I just want the present to last forever, no future to worry about." This might be a quirk of the English script, but that's too close to Ultimecia's endgame to not imply what could be Rinoa's ultimate fate. As far as Ultimecia's plot, it is possible that she has only the faintest glimmer of who she once was due to years of junctioning GFs, and only remembers enough that a woman named Rinoa and a man named Squall were instrumental in her suffering- perhaps when she dies, she remembers the joy she experienced, which is why she passes on her powers to Edea, kickstarting the cycle again, almost like Elone sending the gang through Laguna's memories to, if not able to physically change, at least grow and learn from the past. The bittersweet ambiguity of Rinoa's future serves her thematic coloring marvelously, as she lives and loves in the moment regardless of what may come. There might be a fate, maybe even a cruel one. After all, time claims us all eventually. If we are locked into what is going to happen to us, we can at least choose how we get there, through our worldview and bonds. Rinoa's arc is one of growth, change, and acceptance, and the version of her that becomes Ultimecia is one that rejects those ideals. Will our Rinoa become Ultimecia? Maybe. Does that make it hopeless? As the cast learned, absolutely not. (If you're wondering "if Rinoa is Ultimecia and she winds up not becoming her, how does the plot happen with no Ultimecia?", time compression allows all futures to collide at once, therefore, Squall and company could have returned to a future where Rinoa does/doesn't become Ultimecia)
Great video. I was always a fan of this theory even though I don't think there's enough to say it's definitely what they were going for. I always find it annoying when people say Square refuted it themselves when it was just one person who said it wasn't true. Nothing to say he just didn't want it written in stone that it was true or nothing to say, like you said, that another writer was dropping hints for it independently. Also, I wouldn't like to take sources from outside the game, but Ultimecia wielding Squall's Gunblade and Rinoa's Blaster Edge in Dissidia was almost like a wry confirmation of the theory, or at least a nod to it as opposed to flatly denying it like some claim. One thing you didn't mention is that the only present-day Sorceresses that we know of are Edea and Adel. Rinoa ends up inheriting both of their powers, which could explain how a super-sorceress like Ultimecia could come to be. Maybe all the sorceress power in the world ended up in Rinoa. I think the wing symbolism is very significant. It's hard to look past Rinoa and Ultimecia sharing it, especially when it's such a core part of Rinoa's character. It's on her clothes, it's in her Limit Break and it's in her final weapon. The game even starts with feather imagery. For Ultimecia to share that motif seems like something that wouldn't be done randomly or carelessly. I don't think they contrast in the same way that Seifer and Squall do. I haven't looked at your other videos (yet) but my theory for Squall and Seifer's rivalry is that Seifer idolises Laguna and so is naturally (and unconsciously) antagonistic towards Squall who is Laguna's true heir so to speak. I don't think there is any explanation for why Rinoa and Ultimecia would be similarly rival characters, but if they were the same person it could make sense. There's also the scene in the final cutscene where Squall is breaking down and images of Rinoa and Ultimecia are flickering between each other, perhaps indicating that Squall is realising the truth. As for Ultimecia's motive being strange, another commenter has already mentioned the GF-induced amnesia. I think it would be very consistent if Rinoa's fear of losing Squall in the end is what drives her interest in manipulating time and as she loses her memory, all that's left is a drive to stop time, i.e. time compression. It's not so much her own death that she is lamenting but rather Squall's perhaps. The location of the Castle has been mentioned already too, in the flower field where they promised to wait for each other. Again there's some who say it's not actually at the field but given that that's our point of entry to the Castle, I'm happy that the association definitely exists. There's also the extravagant decoration of the castle which goes along with Rinoa's tastes. Is there any theory around the "In the Garden sleeps a Messenger" title for the painting puzzle? I always found that fascinating. The Garden is obvious but then who is the Messenger and why does Ultimecia have that painting? There's also the party's GF who end up in the Castle minibosses as Draws, the theory being that Rinoa ended up inheriting all of your GF, which we know can easily be passed from character to character. This is slightly contradictory though as they only end up in the bosses if you didn't acquire them in the first place. But there is still the link between Bahamut and Tiamat, who is apparently Bahamut after being corrupted by Ultimecia. How did he end up in the Castle? We know that Squall had some reverence for Bahamut because he recognises him and refers to him as "the great GF". So does Rinoa decide to take your greatest GF and make him a Castle guardian? One other weakness in the theory though is that there is no real analogue for Angelo with Ultimecia. Angelo is a core part of Rinoa's early character so you would have to think that there would be some replacement for him if she was Ultimecia. I used to think it was Griever because she summons him in battle similar to how Rinoa summons Angelo. But apparently he is only conjured up at the moment we fight her. Maybe Angelo is something else that she loses to drive her to madness? Such a great game to theorise on, shame it's so heavily underrated, though I'll grant that the gameplay mechanics are not great. Looking forward to watching your other vids!
Hey I wanted to ask if you plan on doing something similar to this for 13 and 15? I was checking your channel out notice you there was lot less content for 15 and I think none for 13. Either way it's fine, I really enjoy the channel especially ff12 stuff...
Eventually, but not in 2019 I'm afraid. It usually takes me a few playthroughs to understand the story enough to discuss it; and I've only played through 13 and 15 once each! I started a new game on 13 about a month ago though, it's the first time I've played it in 9 years.
Here is how this is a happy end. Ultimecia will be the last Sorceress. With her all Sorceresses disappear, because she went back in time. We don't know why this is a happy end, because we don't the future, but... maybe she needed to seal some kind horrible power away from the world... forever.
Was Rinoa Heartlily created as a direct response to Tifa Lockhart’s character and creation? It seems almost as if Rinoa’s haters are the same folks that don’t like Marin Kitagawa with the main criticism being realistically impossible existence and fantasy wish fulfillment
They are entirely different personalities, Tifa has a maternal nurturing element, Rinoa has a juvenile idealistic element - which is often interpreted badly but I think was integral to her character and role in the story. She's the opposite to Squall who is introverted and cynical at the start of the story; he perceives the worst of people and can't see the world changing. Rinoa on the other hand sees the best in people and believes the world can be changed for the better, and she's so impulsive she wants to do it as soon as possible and, if necessary, by herself. This is why she takes the Odine bangle to Sorceress Edea, which many fans criticise as stupidity... but it's youthful idealism that she brings to the story, and what gradually makes Squall see the world a different way.
I'm warming to the R=U theory but I don't think it needs to be a tragic continuous circle. I find myself thinking about Zanarkand and Yu Yevon's "dreaming". Dreaming over and over again.
Is rinoa Ultimecia? I say "might as well be" in the way she compressed all and time and space and emotion and individual unto herself including Rinoa specially for being a sorceress. If she's not what Rinoa eventually turns into it's what Rinoa is definetly eventually absorbed into.
What I think the game's ending and overall story means: TL;DR - Rinoa is not Ultimecia. Rinoa needs to die in space. Once she dies, Ultimecia dies with her. After defeating Ultimecia, Squall and his friends are separated. Squall believes that he can return to them if he calls out to them. However, he realizes that this is no longer possible and succumbs to his greatest fear - being abandoned and alone. When he sees the white feather falling from the sky, he is reminded of the promise he made to Rinoa. Rinoa is his way back; without her, he is lost at the end of time. Final Fantasy VIII's plot is a time loop/paradox. Recall that Squall gives Edea the idea to build SeeD and Garden when he ended up in the past after defeating Ultimecia. His past self, "young Squall," would later grow up to take part in the events of the game (Squall defeats Edea, Edea transfers her power to Rinoa, Rinoa frees Adel in space, Squall rescues Rinoa and defeats future Ultimecia, Ultimecia transfers her power to Matron, young Squall is raised by Matron and grows up to defeat Edea, etc.). This loop will continue forever, because young Squall does not have the benefit of knowledge or hindsight as the Squall trapped at the end of the paradox. He cannot go back in time to alter his decisions because he does not belong in that timeline (Matron: "Please return. You do not belong here.") The bizarre replays of Rinoa walking in the ending: Squall begins to see replays of when he first met Rinoa at the SeeD banquet in Balamb Garden; this is where the loop begins. Once he meets her at the party, the game's events will take place; you see them replay over and over (you see shots of Rinoa at the party being in frame, then wiped away - as if she is absent). Squall comes to realize that he is forever locked in an eternal battle with Ultimecia, and in this loop, Ultimecia can never truly die. Recall that the only way to truly ensure a sorceress is forever vanquished is for the sorceress to die with her powers. Ultimecia is NOT Rinoa, but their deaths are intertwined, and are also consequently what will end up saving the rest of the world. No matter what kind of action Squall takes in the game in an effort to save Rinoa, it will always end in the same result: replaying the time loop. With the benefit of hindsight, in order to break this time loop, Squall must let Rinoa die in space alone (her life support runs out and her helmet shatters in the ending). If Squall decides not to save her after the destruction of the Moon Base, Rinoa dies with Ultimecia's powers in the vast emptiness of space, unable to transfer them to anyone, thus ending Ultimecia's existence. Squall can then return to the planet to defeat Seifer and a weakened Adel (who needed Rinoa's sorceress powers in order to become strong again), and the party will never have to experience time compression to rush into the future to defeat Ultimecia because she no longer exists - thus saving the world. Squall realizes this (if you recall him crying in the finale); in order to fully destroy Ultimecia, he must sacrifice the only person he truly loves - Rinoa. He must live the remainder of his life alone, broken, and grieving - knowing he abandoned Rinoa to die. The rest of the world will move on, celebrating the end of the succession of witches. The entire game has been about Squall saving Rinoa's life multiple times (fake President Deling, Sorceress Edea at Deling City, from falling off during the Balamb vs Galbadia Garden siege, carrying her to Esthar, from drifting away in space). It's the trope of the knight saving the "Princess" (remember Rinoa's nickname in the Timber Owls?) or in this case "sorceress." In the end, Rinoa rescues Squall. Free of Ultimecia's influence and no longer a sorceress, it's the "Princess" who ends up saving her knight.
So for what it's worth. I think whether you subscribe to the theory or not, I don't really believe Rinoa being Ultimecia really matters in the end. As stated, this is a story about the acceptance of time and impermanence, vs the lamenting of said concepts and an attempt to change them for self preservation. If Ultimecia is Rinao, it could make perfect sense that she would attempt to kill off the remnants and memories that plague her as obstacles to live in a self preserved chamber to herself (IE Squall and her past self). More over the concept of time compression itself is one where shackles in pain from a past present or future no longer exist so it is just a means to an end to no longer be attached to anything that was previously painful. The real tragic irony is that in doing so, you aren't really creating self preservation but rather committing suicide from the prospect of nothing having ground to be in your life. The theory just adds context and dimension to all of this, but it is just as easily understandable for it just to be an attempt for Ultimecia to relinquish all of this based on her persecution as a tortured soul being a sorceress. No matter what idea you subscribe to, it can all wind up the same with love, bonds, living in the present succeeding where fruitless tragic lamentation fails and Squall and Rinoa can live happily ever after in a timeline that was always meant to be.
Ultimecia has to be Rinoa - far too many coincidences as mentioned in the video and comments (“opposite” (light and dark) characterisation, Griever, sorceress and knight, timelines as a concept etc). But one thing people don’t seem to explore further is that Ultimecia - or future Rinoa - deliberately put this plan into motion and intended to die in order for her and Squall to “live happily ever after” in their timeline. So ultimately Ultimecia isn’t a villain at all, but a tragic hero.
Thanks alot for sharing this theory and your well put thoughts! (you do have another sub) I love to read these fans interpretations. You have stated in your video that at your Zell vid a german commentator left a hint (localisation) I have to look this up. I really wonder why in the german version they call Ultimecia Artemisia. For my, ultimate = the very final, makes more sense. But on the other hand there might be a hint in sorceress hierarchy? (I haven’t looked up who Artemesia is) If someone has any info on this, I would be delighted to hear. I have read most of the comments here. Nice to see how friendly and deep fact‘ial everyone here discusses! I just learned through you guys that there is a localisation error from jp to engl when Ultimecia summons Griever. That, in fact, Griever is Squalls „spirit animal“ and not actually her G.F. And Ultimecias strange accent at the beginning of the end battle… where she pronounces K instead of C. I am not fond of my mothertongue in games (which is german) but sometimes things getting clearer when one compares different languages. This is why I was triggered about your Zell comment above. So, now I am going to repeat the final fight in german the see how they translated the accent 🙂 FF8 ending theme is the only motif which gets me totally emotional, all over the years. Saw Arnie Roth conducting a FF concert in Berlin, when they played this theme, I was reduced to tears. FFVIII is underrated in terms of story, especially the ending sequence is touching.
Sorry for the delayed reply. Thank you for the comment and glad you enjoyed the episode. It'd be interesting to know if you pick up anything in your replaying of the game in German!
I think you unknowingly explained why they confirmed this theory being wrong in the end. Its precisely because they didnt want the positive message of the game tainted. They couldnt have rinoa turn from good to evil so they cut the idea before release. Thus we feel the lack of ultimecias backstory even though all ff final bosses usually have very long ones. That being said i feel like them denying the theorie makes it so much more likely to have been a thing at one point during development.
The director who denied it recently stated he wasn't prepared for the question and didn't know anything about the theory but once he looked more into it has since decided to retract his statement. He said that he doesn't know what the other two script writers may have intended but it does seem like something they may have tried and and doesn't think he can say for sure if it's not the case.
Knowing how japanese drama, anime etc works, I'm pretty sure Rinoa wants to compress time becoz she wants to die in the hand of squall, end the sorcerer's line n stop all suffering... ya know, kinda like that Sasuke's brother from Akatsuki thingy...
If we let Rinoa died during adel held her in act 4, the game would be "Game over", there's no ultimecia in the future if rinoa got killed in the present.
Rinoa isn't Ultimecia. Ulti came from the far future, thousands of years after Squall and Rinoa died. Sorceresses have the same lifespan as normal humans
I think the main reason people want the whole 'Rinoa = Ultimecia, Squall = Griever' is because it add a layer to the story that without is just an emo melodrama with some badly writen time travel. Gameplay wise, there is a reason the first thing player search for are patches, difficulty mods and low level run are prevalent. It sell well only because of FF7 sucess and was so bad that it mitigate the sell of FF9 after. It was the worst of the 3d main line era.
@Seth Killian I wouldnt say so much that the game alludes to it, so much as people just like theory crafting. I dont think evidence for any of the end game theories are decisive, and I think that's more or less a good thing. After all, this game still has people discussing it 20 years later. I dont think theres a correct interpretation of the ending, and that leaves it enjoyable for all types of players. Some will see the ending, and view it as a happy ending where squall did eventually make it out ok, and they lived happily with their other friends, and everythings ok. Meanwhile, others will discuss this theory, and several other like it, and I think that uncertainty allows us to project our most interesting interpretation of the ending onto it. In my opinion I would have liked the ending to be just SLIGHTLY more concrete, as it feels like the ending material is just kind of thrown at us as it is now. As for the original comment here, I highly disagree with the sentiment that this game was just an 'emo melodrama with poorly written time travel.' Firstly, I dont think the time travel in this game is really all that prevalent until you start diving into deeper understanding of the ending. On it's own, the time compression plotline is actually pretty simple. Secondly, theres a lot more to squall than just 'emo', and his character arc is mostly pretty interesting With that being said however, as much as I love this game, I have to admit it's very sloppy in a lot of places. It has a certain charm that is unmatched by any of the other games, and I think it's one of the main thing that keeps its followers, but there are a number of poorly written aspects, especially in the mid game. Personally, most of that stems from them blatantly shoving other characters (especially rinoas) character development away in favor of trying to emphasize squalls character development. (In all honesty rinoas character seemed to get worse over the course of the game because between this, and the time she spends unconscious, her character arc gets severely messed up.) The other problem with this, besides the way it sabotaged other characters development, is that it actually made squall feel weaker. At times it felt like they were trying too hard to make it obvious that squall had changed. In reality, his mannerisms, as well as a few cutscenes made this quite clear. Rinoas lines at trabia garden when they are discussing their lives in the orphanage were leading into a character moment but got overshadowed, rinoas lines upon first boarding the ragnarok were unrealistic to her character, instead acting as just a means to further squall. Every single scene with rinoa after she awakes disregards her character in favor of squalls, and it leaves her character feeling sadly undeveloped, which is sad because she was done SO WELL up until the end of disk one. (I actually really love her character, I just like to acknowledge wasted potential.). The game also suffers from a lack of direction at time, where you're just sorta sent roaming somewhere (usually the garden) until you find whatever progresses the story. In certain situations this promotes exploration, but in some situations, such as the conflict between galbadia and balamb gardens, it left otherwise interesting scenes feeling lost, gameplay wise. Finally, and more bitpickily, the junctionings get messed up a lot when jumping to Lagunas party, and between discs. Also, I had to waste so much cure magic whenever I exchange junctions because of the 3000 health increase caused by doing so. Again, I love this game, it has arguably the most heart in all of final fantasy, but the execution is quite sloppy at times. I would love to see a day where square starts remaking some of the other games after the success of ffviir, and because I would love to see them fix these issues, and polish the game a bit more in some of these areas. *I'm not expecting them to remake this game at any point, but I can hope.
I've never played FF7 (both OG and Remade) but I must confess that when I get to see some vids of it, I find it so uninteresting. I can't believe ppl actually criticise FF VIII saying "it's full of pixels" when in FF VII, all the characters look like they're from a cartoon / out of Disney world XD ! I know that FF VII was the very 1st FF video game to be imported to the US and to Europe but still...
@@hazeldaniels1679 Half of Rinoa's dialogue is her saying things Ultimecia would say. The game definitely alludes to it. She even says that she wants to stop time, that she wants to meet at the exact place that Ultimecia's castle is built and that Squall might have to kill her one day.
Squall never died, for fucks sake the creator stated that he never died a thousand times to the point that it has become annoying... Rinoa the strong and independent women who needs no one.... until she fucks up her delusions and must carried ...
if squall and rinoa gets married, it must be awkward for laguna, his partner, julia and her husband, during family gathering.. or will raine and julia's husband just laugh it out?
![เปิดบ้าน โคตรสวย ป๋องกพล รู้จักตั้งนาน เพิ่งรู้ว่ารวย!!! l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tmgCF_2HfYI/mqdefault.jpg)
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What if multiple people are Ultimaca. Time Compression and Motivations.
I think it would be cool if the will and power of all Sorceresses might be the same, and is actually a collective of consciousness/memory that is passed and inherited. So that negative chain of beings that are hated eventually comes to Ultimecia who infects the past. Since the will/power of all Sorceresses is the same, Ultimecia knows all of their past as she is the final Sorceress in the timeline. She knows/has Griever, which might actually have been born of Squall's existence stuck in time compression. Interesting considering the song Maybe I'm a Lion. Eventually the loop of wills completes, and Rinoa remembers to save Squall. So we see the loop closing, and the will of all Sorceresses end in one of them being happy. Since Ultimecia dies and passes the will to Edea, the loop from that point forward always ends in Rinoa, with a happy outcome.
I just listened to your sequel idea, and think that the collective will and memory idea I listed can feed back in with your sequel. Where the god that created the Sorceresses could be that collective will. So the future of Ultimecia could be the dreams Rinoa is having of destroying the world. Where as long as the god and their will exist, Ultimecia is destined to happen. The ending to your sequel can close the loop. Rinoa is drawn in during the boss death sequence, and Squall disappearing after her. Both seem to disappear, and the rest of the party leaves feeling sorrowful. They can go through the full wrap up of all the threads in the closing fmvs you mentioned, with Ellone telling the rest of the hero party that Squall and Rinoa are just fulfilling a promise (with Laguna giving a smile). Then the after credit scene is both of them standing in the field of flowers embracing, which fades to the original Final Fantasy VIII logo of them.
In my mind, she had already glimpsed the future of her demise no matter how hard she tried to alter it, her trying to kill Rinoa and Squall is just an illusion, meaning, she is playing the part but knowing she will not succeed, so she has no worries of killing both of them, because she knows she can't. What can you do despite knowing your best effort to live a good life, sooner or later, your friends and lover would be dead, you lose your memory, you will be pursued by Seeds and nations who fears your power and that you will be killed by the ones you love, no matter how hard you try to avoid it. Like your fate is written in stone. Like a video that you can watch, but you can't change.
No brainer here, your analyses are incredible!
"Depending of what you believe, this game is either an optimistic love story or a complete tragedy."
Personally, I feel the best love stories are both.
Jeez....right in the feels.
Romeo and Juliet come to mind
I see it as "this many end in greif and tragedy, but we're going to make the most of it while we're still here"
rinoa represents livin for today so u dont hav regrets later, while ultimecia represents bein consumed n obsessed by ur past n past regrets. hope/joy vs regret/despair
I always took Ultimecia wanting time compression to have everything in one "place" so she could finally find Squall because she couldn't exactly find him and I think theres something to the GF Greiver affecting her memory after a while. I mean Squall and the gang (excluding Rinoa) used GFs for maybe 5 years and forgot about their childhood to an extent so imagine using a GF for MUCH longer .. idk I just love to believe this because it really adds so much to the game because otherwise Ultimecia wanting time compression is for what? Plus Ultimecias castle is where her and Squall promised to meet she probably doesnt remember why she literally chained her castle to "That Place"
According to e French website called finaland.com, it is said that Ultimecia's castle is located in front of the orphanage, not in the flowerfield there... www.finaland.com/?rub=info&page=hypoff-ultimecia
@@chrysm6842 On the final disc you could leave Ultimecia's castle and fly around the world. Can't enter most of the towns. It was probably just for training, you and the world monsters. Try and find out where exactly the castle is located.
Ultimecia extract Griever from the imagination of Squall, i don't know about the English version but in the Spanish she said something like "I will summon the being you fear the most ... the stronger it is in your mind, the greater will be your agony"
So she extract Griever from his mind, she took the image of how Griever is to Squall, so the being we fought in the game is how Squall thinks Griever is. Squall said it in the game to Rinoa "Lions are imaginary animals, they are proud and strong"
Exactly. It’s not a coincidence.
She's says on ragnarok that she wants the present to stand still or something
She’s a great contrast to Ultimecia like the inverse Ying and yang equivalent of eachother, I’ve never understood why the fanbase barely mentions her and she’s developed this underrated status.
I’ve always viewed them as that. Rinoa has white angel wings on her the back of her design, and Ultimecia has black angel wings on hers. I’ve never really thought that they were the same person (and also because the creators at square enix have discredited the theory and have said that they not the same).
Same as Squall and Cifer. Another couple of equivalents.
Rinoa as Ultimecia didn't know she was fighting her former lover and herself at the end of the game due to having Griever junctioned for so long. There's no way the lore of amnesia as a consequence of using GFs only comes into play in the story just once for the orphanage scene. It happens too early on for it to never be a factor again. I believe that scene was meant to demonstrate how bad it can be, and lets you imagine how much worse it can get if you keep using them indefinitely.
Rinoa at the flower field laments about what she thinks might happen to her if she remains a sorceress. Edea gives Rinoa advice on being a sorceress, saying she should have a knight by her side. She postulates that Ultimecia doesn't have a knight in her time. Rinoa makes Squall her knight, and says that it would only be okay for Squall to "pierce my heart."
Ellone's motives for sending Squall and co. to the past was to try to get Laguna to stay in Winhill with Raine so he could be with her when she died. She failed, but she tells Squall that it was good enough to see how loved she was. This could parallel Ultimecia's motivation to see the past, so that she can experience that feeling again after her heart turned bitter after losing her knight, Squall, whom she forgot about due to her GF, Griever. Years of being ostracized, of being hunted and hated, of being ALONE, have corrupted her, turning her white wings to black.
However, seeing the past with no memory of it in order to see how loved you once were is an exercise in futility. I can see that eventually she would have nothing left to lose, which is a dangerous state for anyone to be in, let alone a sorceress. Junction Machine Ellone is no longer enough; thus her motivations to find Ellone, achieve time compression, and essentially wipe everyone and everything out, because the hell with everyone for treating me this way.
Squall and Rinoa later battle each other and don't know it due to the GFs. Squall pierces her heart like they talked about, only neither know whom they're actually facing.
This doesn't necessarily have to define the story as a tragedy if you accept that there isn't necessarily a time loop. The story only says that you can't change the PAST; it doesn't say that peoples' actions in the present can't determine a different future, meaning there is not necessarily a concept of fate or destiny. So when they return to their time, maybe things can turn out differently.
Even if there is a loop, they are still together, happy, until Squall's eventual death. The theme of loneliness vs. love shines through either way.
That's definitely something a potential remake should highlight on.
YES you 90% nailed it!
Original Rinoa (Ultimecia) loops her own timeline to splinter off a timeline where Rinoa does not become Ultimecia, events move in Squall's favor, and the inheritance of time sorceress power ends.
Ultimecia is in her own fucked up loop.
Time compression is the point at which she "dies" and the end timeline branches off.
Imagine splitting a video recording in editor and inserting a new recording between.
The second half (game ending) could not exist without the inserted new recording (our heroes confronting Ultimecia).
The time anomaly starts at the moment she appears to Edea.
Finally. Someone actually understood the fact that gf make you forget your past.. ;)
This is very well thought out. There are so many clues that I can’t understand why people just dismiss this theory so easily. It is far more interesting of a story.
@@vincevvn
There is an interview you should be able to find on TH-cam where Kitase is asked a bunch of yes/no questions, and when asked if R=U, he held up the "NO" sign, and that's good enough for a lot of people.
It isn't for me.
I believe this is the kind of story you want to have some things left up to interpretation. So when you are asked a question like that and HAVE TO answer just a yes or no, "NO" is practically your only choice.
I think the evidence for R=U is so overwhelming that Kitase shooting it down in that context is not enough to dissuade me. The game practically hits you over the head with it without outright telling you; there's simply too many hints and too much setup to not have that payoff. It's the kind of thing where if you believe that it's true, it's quite clever how they pulled it off, and if you don't, then it's far less interesting of a story like you said.
I would go so far as to say that the story is pretty lame without it.
this was so great.
Something else interesting about the character of Rinoa is how divided people seem to be on whether rinoa fits or totally breaks the female love interest stereotype. on one hand, people tend to point out the fact that she always gets into trouble, that she has a bubbly personality, and that she (apparently) only exists as a plot device to show squall's growth.
The first two points are really just a result of her having a pampered upbringing, and I can't really agree with the latter as Rinoa goes through her own character arc, and is pretty fleshed-out.
when you get down to it, Rinoa really broke the mold- she took on the aggressive role in courting squall, and turned out to be the one who saved him in the end, despite needing saving several times herself. all in all Rinoa was an incredibly realistic character, which makes sense if we're to believe the rumor that she was actually based on a real person who worked at Square at the time.
Agreed. The FH date scene is what communicated it best for me, right down to the almost aggressive physicality of Rinoa pushing Squall off that ledge to force a reaction out of him and change his way of thinking. Female leads usually need rescuing but don't often 'force' anything out of the hero through their strength of character. She also rescues Squall in the ending which, again, is usually something reserved for the male lead, so she pleasantly changes things up and is entirely unique as a deuteragonist / romantic foil I think.
Yeah, i get why people would associate her with this stereotype of the girl trying to proove herself while just making more trouble, but she definetely grew out of it. I like the contrats between Squall getting all the leader positions against his will because people think of him as competent more then heself does and Rinoa being seen as a burden by everyone, being the weakest of the group supposedly, yet she still tries her best to change that.
For me it came full circle when she was about to be sealed by her own will but Squall was the one keeping her from it, Squall was kinda selfish here and acted against the supposedly right solution at the time for her, unlike that time the 2 gardens had a fight and he seemed conflicted between saving her and standing up to what people expected from him as the leader of the garden.
In my mind that was the point that showed Squall learned from Rinoa to do what he personally thinks is the best against logic, while Rinoa learned from him to selflessly stand up to what's the best for everyone. Rinoa and Squall both would have acted like they did back on CD 1 there, really amazing and natural character growth they had over their relationship.
Rinoa is arguably the more important character of the two. Idk why morons would say she’s a stereotype.
Something to note is that I don't think Ultimecia actually looses. She created a loop that lets her live the cycle on and on, younger Edea getting those powers created that loop, so even when she "dies" she'll get to live out her past again and again. She picks Edea as a prime target to connect to Squall on this loop, who pretty much encouraged Squall, as his destiny, to face Ultimecia. Part of the this theory could be that she does this to keep the loop intentionally keep the past she laments loosing, this could possibly be her past with Squall in this theory.
It could be thought that her attacking them is all part of the plan knowing she will lose to him (and friends) setting up the cycle to repeat during the compression.
The start of the battle with her, she's very... wacky, loud, laughing and all that. But in the last form, suddenly takes a different tone, and drops the accent, perhaps knowing that the time has come to "recycle," at least if she doesn't get what is at least perceived to be her way in the end. Honestly, if she is the only one that can survive in the truly time-compressed world. What would all that power matter if everyone and everything else is gone?
Who knows what happens between the "present" and Ultimecia's future, but it's very interesting. I like the theory because it adds a sense of connection with the theme, as to why she seems to set that loop up in that exact spot. It's tragic for sure.... but it can also be seen as the villain actually winning, as the loop will never actually let her (or anyone in the past she loved) die forever.
Had another thought. On the note of Ellone trying to change the past, Ellone realized that she couldn't actually change it, but hoped to at least learn from viewing the past and understand things she didn't before, although they also do apparently say that their is minor influences? Laguna said he felt something in the past, and Rinoa hear's Squall before she's about to pass out? I feel like this could be a similar goal to the whole thing as well.
After playing Chrono Cross, that makes sense...
I thought Ultimecia just passed her powers onto Matron at the end.
@@Joe_334 And then It passes from Matron over to Rinoa after she's defeated in Galbadia Garden, hence the loop theory.
I always thought of FFVIII to be a time loop like the Terminator series and Forbidden Siren. The cycle is endless. Everything is already set. Any move or action one take, is supposed to be the correct move to complete the cycle. I actually love the thought of Rinoa = Ultimecia. It gives her a much deeper and tragic story rather than just being a cheapo villain.
I agree. Although she cannot escape death, she has made herself essentially immortal.
Thats one theory I had a long time. But the more I think about it, the more unfitting puzzle pieces I find. Sure, time repeats this time. But adult Squall and his folks know about the loop.
They would try to stop the time loop. Would be a great sequel with a very uncertain outcome.
Adult Squall has to change the past, so Edea doesnt become a sorceress from the start, so she cant be possessed later on. But if our heroes change the past for good, they wouldnt become Seeds in the first place, this means they wouldnt travel forwards and backwards in time to stop Edea, Adell, Artemisia... and everything falls apart and a new timeline is set in motion.
- Squall and his comrades would be ordinary people....
- Laguna would still be president in Esthar and Adell is forever trapped in space.
- There would be no Balamb Garden, and no war between Balamb and Galbadia.
- Dollet wouldnt be attacked.
- Rinoa and Squall would never meet
- maybe none of the cast meet each other in the outcome...
Bonus:
Lets say Rinoa = Artemisia is true. If Rinoa never meet Squall and the others, she wouldnt become nihilistic or even a sorceress (who knows). So... that means no sorceress from the future who tries to compress time.
So... if Artemisia IS Rinoa, there is only one possible solution to end all for good: Stop Squall become a SEED. Stop SEED before they are even founded.
Rinoa cant recruite them anymore, never falls in love with one of them. There is btw no need for SEEDs, when Adell is the last sorceress at this point and she is sealed away forever.
Everything changes. Everything.
It's neat that Rinoa got Squall to be more comfortable showing his emotions and letting his friends in more. Squall is still introverted(not a bad thing at all) but at the end trusts his close friends more and lets them in instead of pushing them away. This is thanks to Rinoa. At the same time when Rinoa becomes a Sorceress she start expressing introverted qualities herself and ends up disliking the company of others except her few friends and obviously Squall. So while she taught Squall the importance of friendship in the middle to late game he also taught her the power of introspective strength when you have a lot to process in life.
I personally prefer the "Rinoa is Ultimecia" theory. It, to me, completes the story.
I do understand why some fans reject the theory.
As far as Ultimecia going insane and wanting to destroy SeeD and Squall, that makes alot more sense than Ultimecia just being a random sorceress going after them.
Your final words at the end about "Ultimecia couldn't accept the past" whereas the orphans accepted the past and moved on, I like that contrast between the two.
The theory is... In future, everything seems going well. Rinoa and Squall are in love, their friends are supporting them. But life is just so uncertain. Perhaps at any circumstances, SeeD in all over the world pursuing Sorceress Rinoa in order to seal her. Remember, sorceress is a public enemy, that's why SeeD were established. If public sees sorceress as unharmful person any longer, logic is SeeD should be terminated down sooner.
When people and SeeD fight against Rinoa, Squall is standing right there as her knight. Eventually this fight ends up in tragedy, Squall dies at very young age in future. This makes Rinoa sad and mad at very same time and launch her inner evil side, since Adel's power were in her as well.
Using magic, Rinoa tries to ressurected Squall but it does not work. In other way, Griever is revived as new founded Guardian Force and it junctioned into Rinoa. Slow but sure, Rinoa loss her memories almost about everything. What she remembers was SeeD is one thing she have to revenge on.
In far future when Rinoa finally escapes or wins against SeeD and people in her timeline, Rinoa remember one thing (or maybe heard from someone), that Ellone was live in the past. FYI, Ellone has the power to send one consciousness to the past. Rinoa aka Ultimecia now has a purpose to finds Ellone in order to make Time Compression; she wants to make an static time so that she can enjoy the happiness in the past for the eternity. She might didn't remember about Squall anymore. But she knows she was happy before with someone, and she tries to figure it out in the past. So sad to think about it.
Using time machine that created by Odine in the past (in far future, this machine should be improved a lot), Ultimecia posses Edea (since Edea is the only exist sorceress in Ellone timeline; Adel were sealed in space). Luckily Matroan (Edea) succeed escapes Ellone to the hand of White SeeD before, so Ultimecia fails to find Ellone. Heard of this threat, Cid along with Norg establish Three Gardens and create SeeD. But she won't stop there. Ultimecia in Edea's body then claim her throne in Deling City, cooperate with corrupted President Deling and takes him as a refuge. That's why Edea is safe for a long time even when people in the world and SeeD were all against her. And the rest is the FF VIII story.
NB: if someone of you argue that Ultimecia had different accent when saying c words in k, such like 'kurse you...', which makes her impossible as Rinoa, then take a look at Ultimecia last conversation with Matron before she passed away. She speaks English accent in normal way! Yes, it means Ultimecia has two accents. Perhaps when someone very upset, some people are able to speak with heavy accent because of emotional sentiment. For example: 'are you krazyyy??'. Nah we used it sometimes in daily right.
I mean, refusing theory of R=U just because English accent is just substantiating evidence.
It wasn't just the fans who rejected it. It was the game's writers and developers too. The theory isn't canon.
How can it be a theory that's plausible when the creator himself said that Rinoa WASN'T Ultimecia? Seriously, there's theories and then there's blatant selective canon that fans choose to go by. Don't be a moron.
Prince G-MO I like it too it’s stronger. But I know it’s not true. And Ultimecia isn’t as random as Necron from 9. Now THAT made absolutely no sense.
@@misterpantherman7678 the idea behind ultimecia is that she's rinoa... From a different timeline where something went horribly wrong. And for what I've read about the devs declarations is that they don't say anything else. They just said it without any other info about her.
The real problem in this case is that besides Zemus. The Great Heyn. Ultimecia. Necron and yu yevon have the same thing in common: zero background story. Or no real impact in the story.
Seriously speaking. With hein and ultimecia. O guess is better that they leave their background as it is. A real mystery about their background leaving it to the fans whatever they want to believe. Instead of giving them a shitty story to disprove them
The theory just adds so much more depth to the story and the two characters. I love the theory.
It adds way more inconsistencies and plot holes, the depth in this case (if it were true) is no deeper than a few centimeter puddle.
@@Gyrannon cry about it
I love Rinoa she changed Squall for the better seems like Squall seems comfortable around Rinoa :)
I was just thinking about Ultimecia. If you think about the in game draw system, you can equate what Ultimecia has been doing with the sorceress throughout all time, controlling them from her time, through some machine(I forgot how). When she takes a hold of the sorceresses, one at a time, it seems like she has access to their memories as well as their present day, as well. Remember the ring that Rinoa takes and copies? That, and all of the things Rinoa experienced, about herself, Squall, and the time around her, Ultimecia had full access to when she took hold of her at the end of disc two, into disc three. Maybe Rinoa isn't Ultimecia.
(How else would Ultimecia know to make a reference to Squall Dancing with Rinoa in Dissidia?)
Your ability to understand the narrative sharply and properly on its own terms is really refreshing against the wave of narrative deconstruction. And you're extremely articulate too! Good stuff!
Thank you 🙏 I'm glad you enjoyed the style :)
About your remarks on Rinoa's impulsivity at 3:08 :
I read someone's article about this. Actually Rinoa suggested to discuss a rather good idea about subduing Edea by using the necklace. However, nobody listens to her, they shut her down, because they saw her as a naive amateur.
Interesting view on it, particularly as it's Quistis who shuts her down, who's obviously has misgivings about Rinoa anyway
It was a dumb idea. It had little to no chance of working. And... it didn't.
It’s been awhile since I played the game but I don’t remember ultimecia ever trying to kill past squall and rinoa, hear me out, I remember her sending the statues after rinoa to “kill” her but they reached her immediately and barely laid a hand on her by the time squall reached her even though she was incapable of defending herself, and the part that invited the squall death theory, when he was impaled by edea, instead of killing him he’s healed and taken captive and rinoa whom was literally standing right there, was returned to her father. Doesn’t sound like something someone who wants you dead would do.
Ultimecia almost had Rinoa killed in space. Squall and Ellone save her.
The algorithm suggested this video once and I turned it down as I was playing the game. Came up again just now as I finished it a few days ago. You've gained a sub.
Rinoa is Ultimecia.
Do you think Rinoa has a more negative reaction to the party playing Eyes On Me (compared to her more favourable reaction to the trad song), at Fisherman’s Horizon because it reminds her of her dead mother and so she’s more sensitive to it not being performed correctly? Just something I thought about during my current playthrough, where I forgot which song gets the best reaction!
Interesting point, yeah there are different reactions between the two correct song choices, and I'd never really considered why that might be! I'm gonna play back through and read those dialogues again, nice spot.
She does actually squall says something during eyes on me playing and she literally flips out and runs off they have a more romantic moment during the other song witch I find it odd since eyes on me is more romantic
FF8 is an infinite time loop where you the OP Rinoa sends a feather to squall in ED to let him know she was Ultimecia.
Game is hiding the aspect but I will write down the biggest point for the theory.
1. Time compression room where Rinoa meets Edea has many save points. This indicate that she went there many times.
Plus, the Squall ED shows him meeting Rinoa many times. There is a scene where he is circling himself while Rinoa cling to him. I think this indicate the loop part of Rinoa story.
2. Black and White Rinoa picture clearly shows Black and white feathers. Also the OP shows Rinoa coming from black feathers not white! Hence the ending is Rinoa after getting rid of Ultimecia. The one who died came back to Rinoa. Not forgeting after beating Final Ultimecia, white feathers comes out of her.
3. Griever is funny subject but Rinoa says in Japanese whe tries to become a lion when Squall tell her the ring name, Which is what happened in the final battle.
4. Ultimecia Castle is where the promise garden which shows a link between the players and Ultimecia.
5. The logo is clearly shows Rinoa's finger going to become a witch clearly. The sad love story she is losing memory because of the GF. Hence can't remember Squall. But she has feeling which leave all the hints of the place of the castle and the monsters etc.
6. In FF8 Ultimania supposed to be named Eternal. We can speculate that is comes from the eternal loop she is living.
This is one is not in the game but "Maybe I'am a Lion" naming is really intresting. If you take the "a lion" you can change it to "Maybe I'am Linoa"
In Japanese, the don't have the letter L therefor it could saying"Maybe I'am Rinoa"
Japanese analyze it throughly more than any English video I have seen.
Just saying, Squall GF is called Griever for a reason. Grief is ultimately a pain that more often than not, sets us down a very dark path. Meaning that Ultimecia is literally weaponizing her own internal grief, not to mention, that it was stated about the mid point in the game that GF causes memory loss. You could see the transformations that take place during the boss fight as symbolic of the twisted state of her mind as she loses more control during the fight. I wish this theory was canonized because it can in my opinion give way more to work with, and even more to ponder with.
Griever real name is Guriva, taken from "griva" (russian word) which means "mane" (lion's mane). The English translation change it to Griever.
Note if you change the name on the ring the gf boss name will change as well
If Rinoa is Ultimecia that makes the song The Extreme all the more impactful, because Squall has to put down the Woman he loves.
If Rinoa is Ultimecia then how does she not know her own fate? The theory makes as much sense as claiming air can become solid as a rock.
@@Gyrannonthe theory is air tight. Rinoa or Ultimecia wouldn't know their fate for several reasons. The first being fairly obvious in that nobody made the connection that they were the same person. Squall realistically would have been the only person who could have made sense of the context clues and pieced together her identity, but only after he realized he was in love with Rinoa and vowed to be her Knight. So he wouldn't have acted against her.
Then you also have to consider the Guardian Force induced amnesia aspect to the story. Ultimecia has had Griever junctioned to her for thousands of years. It isn't out of the realm that this could cause her to forget everything about her past life. Maybe she even forgets about Squall. Maybe all she has left are faded memories and emotion.
@@yourcanadianidol or maybe you WANT this theory to be true.
It doesnt make any sense to me, its as airtight as a wet paper bag.
Just finished the game today and read up on it.
On one han di really want to believe the rinoa is ultimecia theory because this would result in a lot fo interesting themes. Especially the thought of her doing the whole timeloop plan to get back to the good days, yet her G.F. she desperately held on to to remember Squall erasing her memory of him. There is something amazignly tragic about someone waiting thousands of years to bring back someone they lost, only to forget the objective along the way and not even recognizing them when they come back.
The evidence stil seems forced to me though sadly.
Durign my playthrough i almost expected her to be Ellione since she basically used the same power as her. Still kinda confused about this, i thought Ellione was a witch since she had this power, but she was never considered as a target for ultimecia and i really didn't get how she defeated Adell and cause the timetravel into the future.
Still, if she had like an actual relationship to squall this might have made sence, but despite being his sister they really didn't do much
Great video, this theory is always intriguing. You mention how it undermines the game’s themes and character development etc, but your analysis left me with a competing interpretation I wanted to share.
What if we consider that Rinoa both is and isn’t Ultimecia? To me, it seems feasible that Rinoa could, in at least 1 timeline, join the SeeD party, prosper through the climactic battle with the evil sorceress in time compressed reality, and return to / bring Squall back from the void to their reality/meeting place-only to still succumb to pain, fear and isolation (negative themes in the game, but acknowledged in Eyes On Me choruses) to become Ultimecia and repeat the cycle. But to me the redemption arc is achieved if we infer the possibility of a timeline wherein Sorceress Rinoa endures the influential trauma assumed by R=U (squalls death, being ostracized, whatever) and passes her power as her lifespan naturally ends. I see it as though, regardless of how many timelines Rinoa DOES become Ultimecia, the manifestation of a single timeline where Rinoa doesn’t become Ultimecia is our more meaningful happy love story ending.
R=U adds so much more context to the game’s story in my opinion, so I’m probably just unreasonably resistant to discard the theory. Anyways, great video, just wanted to share my takeaway.
Underrated ff channal
It’s good to know that theirs actual final fantasy fans here though
Additional thought on why Rinoa can't be Ultimecia: The theory requires accepting the idea that Sorceresses are immortal, or at least ageless. However that idea is only supported by the one line at the end of the game where it's stated that a Sorceress cannot die in piece without passing on her powers. However I don't think that means what people pretend it does. It's only saying a Sorceress cannot "die in piece" without passing on her powers, not that a Sorceress can chose to extend her life by not passing on her powers.
Also, the idea of immortal or ageless Sorceresses undermines themes and plot points of the story. For instance if Adel had no reason to fear, or at least plan for death, Ellone never would have been kidnapped. If Ellone were never kidnapped, Odine never would have studied her and created the Junction Machine Ellone. Without the Junction Machine Ellone, Ultimecia would never have been able to posses people in the past to attempt Time Compression.
In fact, Ultimecia would have little reason to want to attempt Time Compression if Sorceresses were immortal or ageless. Her whole reason for wanting Time Compression is to achieve ultimate power by drawing on the power of all Sorceresses caught in Time Compression, and to make her self immortal so that she doesn't have to face death. As you so well pointed out, Ultimecia fears death.
Yes great point, and I've seen the sorceresses cannot die argument in the past, which lends to the idea that Rinoa has survived several generations in a seemingly ageless vacuum. As you've pointed out, this theory would undermine the foundations of the central storyline!
@@AlleywayJack UNLESS she got the Adel treatment in the future :P
The theory is... In future, everything seems going well. Rinoa and Squall are in love, their friends are supporting them. But life is just so uncertain. Perhaps at any circumstances, SeeD in all over the world pursuing Sorceress Rinoa in order to seal her. Remember, sorceress is a public enemy, that's why SeeD were established. If public sees sorceress as unharmful person any longer, logic is SeeD should be terminated down sooner.
When people and SeeD fight against Rinoa, Squall is standing right there as her knight. Eventually this fight ends up in tragedy, Squall dies at very young age in future. This makes Rinoa sad and mad at very same time and launch her inner evil side, since Adel's power were in her as well.
Using magic, Rinoa tries to ressurected Squall but it does not work. In other way, Griever is revived as new founded Guardian Force and it junctioned into Rinoa. Slow but sure, Rinoa loss her memories almost about everything. What she remembers was SeeD is one thing she have to revenge on.
In far future when Rinoa finally escapes or wins against SeeD and people in her timeline, Rinoa remember one thing (or maybe heard from someone), that Ellone was live in the past. FYI, Ellone has the power to send one consciousness to the past. Rinoa aka Ultimecia now has a purpose to finds Ellone in order to make Time Compression; she wants to make an static time so that she can enjoy the happiness in the past for the eternity. She might didn't remember about Squall anymore. But she knows she was happy before with someone, and she tries to figure it out in the past. So sad to think about it.
Using time machine that created by Odine in the past (in far future, this machine should be improved a lot), Ultimecia posses Edea (since Edea is the only exist sorceress in Ellone timeline; Adel were sealed in space). Luckily Matroan (Edea) succeed escapes Ellone to the hand of White SeeD before, so Ultimecia fails to find Ellone. Heard of this threat, Cid along with Norg establish Three Gardens and create SeeD. But she won't stop there. Ultimecia in Edea's body then claim her throne in Deling City, cooperate with corrupted President Deling and takes him as a refuge. That's why Edea is safe for a long time even when people in the world and SeeD were all against her. And the rest is the FF VIII story.
NB: if someone of you argue that Ultimecia had different accent when saying c words in k, such like 'kurse you...', which makes her impossible as Rinoa, then take a look at Ultimecia last conversation with Matron before she passed away. She speaks English accent in normal way! Yes, it means Ultimecia has two accents. Perhaps when someone very upset, some people are able to speak with heavy accent because of emotional sentiment. For example: 'are you krazyyy??'. Nah we used it sometimes in daily right.
I mean, refusing theory of R=U just because English accent is just substantiating evidence.
@@DanielNevada That doesn't work, as I already stated earlier Sorceresses are not immortal or ageless. And Greaver was created on the spot during the final battle. There is a localization error that makes it sound like she's summoning Greaver as her own GF, but actually what she's doing is reaching into Squall's mind to manifest the most powerful creature he can think of.
Also we have very little information on just how much memory loss GFs cause. Squall and co may have forgotten their childhood, but when Irvine brings it up everyone is able to remember it eventually. So if that's how it works and Ultimecia is Rinoa then seeing Squall should bring back those memories.
It also seems you try to argue that SeeD would stop existing if there was no sorceress to hunt. But that is clearly contradicted in the game. Up until Edea becomes an actual threat, SeeD is just doing regular mercenary work. In fact, none of the students or SeeDs even knew they were supposed to be training to fight sorceresses.
There is also no evidence to support the idea that inheriting another sorceresses powers has any effect on a persons personality. Edea inherits Ultimecia's powers but is still her same kind self up until she is possessed by Ultimecia from the future.
@@ballroomscott Sorceress might not immortal or ageless. But they might have powers to extend their lifespan. Adel for example is the sorceress from the past, sealed over the years in space, without food, and still alive and young. And take a look at Edea that still young and fresh, beside her husband Cid looks like mid age Robin Williams.
Regarding Griver, yes it seems too many speculations on our speculations. I guess we can skip it for this moment.
In the FF VIII storyline, we can learn that GF cause memory loss like amnesia, strikes our hioppocampus and makes people forget their past. That's why Selphie suggest to write a diary book everyday. There's possibility... If Rinoa juntioning Griever or another GF into her for very long time, this will cause huge memory loss. Seeing Squall won't affect anything to corrupted Rinoa. If they had deep conversation, it might trigger something. But as you know, Ultimecia confronted by SeeD in the very initial of their encounter... Anw this assumption only works if we think R=U. If you reject the possibility if R=U in alternate timeline, we can skip this issue.
SeeD is no longer SeeD since the end of war against sorceress. They fully understand their existance; rather to fight sorceress, or preparing for the threat of sorceress in future. That is their main goal, another regular mercernary work such like Squall n frens doing in the earlier just 'second career'. I meant, there's possibilities in future people think that Rinoa is a threat. If this happens, we are very sure Squall will defend her.
Then there is also no evidence to suport the idea that inheriting another sorceresses powers has no any effect on person's personality. If so, why people sees sorceress as a threat, why sorceress is treated as a world's enemy? We can think of that sorceress or magic is something harmful, so they need to be sealed to prevent bad things happen in future. This will drive bad experience to Rinoa since she is the exist sorceress in the future.
I know what we argue here all is assumption. But this is the only reason why Ultimecia finds Ellone, building her castle on Squall-Rinoa's promises land, hates and tries to destroy SeeD, and want to achieve Time Compression. If sorceress can expand their lifetime as I mentioned before, Time Compression has nothing to do with longevity.
Btw you have mentioned that Ultimecia seeking for other sorceress' powers across generations to reach ultimate power. This only works if she search something after ultimate power. What if Ultimecia wants to be the most powerful sorceress so that she can control the time and space? In order for what? She is not insane enough to live alone in Time Compression, it is useless to be the strongest being in universe and alone. It only works if she wants to control the time and space to attain something bigger than the power itself. It is self actualization; to be loved and finding the loved one.
The fan theory makes the Ultimecia character so much deeper and tragic. I like it. Makes the character so much more interesting. Without it, the character feels cheap. It'll be one of the best plot twist in gaming also. If FFVIII were to ever get a remake, i hope they consider the R=U theory. Everything fits. Griever would also be given a much deeper feel. Remember only Rinoa knew who or what Griever was since she's the only one that we know of that Squall told. There's too much to support it.
one Griever stands for bravery and hope, the other one for nihilism and despair. It mirrors exactly Rinoa as she becomes Artemisia over time and personal loss... grieve.
@@ranzigerkaefer it would be a hell of a story. Possibly the most tragic one too.
Currently about halfway through the video, I'm just gonna say it: Yoshinori Kitase has confirmed that the Rinoa/Ultimecia theory is bunk. But personally, I say feel free to have your own head-canon. It's nowhere near as stupid as the Shepard Indoctrination Theory.
Pretty cool, you're passionate enough about this that I, as a person who never played this game, stuck around to hear your thoughts on the theory. I love final fantasy 10 in the way you love this game so I can relate. I assume the squall is dead theory is also interesting but not true as well then.
The Rinoa is Ultimecia theory augments the story by giving the main antagonist an arguably much-needed back story and motivation. As mentioned in the video, it also transforms the story from a romance to a tragedy. The Squall is Dead theory on the other hand renders almost everything that happens in the game pointless. It transforms the story from a romance to an "and then I woke up" pointless series of events. That's why I personally don't find it interesting even if there are some decent arguments behind it.
This game gets a lot of undue criticism because the plot isn't spoonfed to the player like it is with most other games
That's an understatement when the writer makes a 1000 hints that one person is another person but won't admit it 20 years later. I do like the game though!!!
I'd always wondered why Griever appeared in the final battle, but the way you explained it reminds me of Gozer conjuring up the Stay Puft marshmallow man in Ghostbusters.
You actually made complete sense of the story for me. Thank you!
I always took griever to be Rinoa's desperate attempt to bring Squall back to life as a GF after his death
It's not worked out fully and that inside that giant Lion Monster is squall sonewhere
Yeah. The "Rinoa is Ultimecia" theory isn't complete without "Squall is Griever".
I mean, Griever and Squall's connection does add fuel to this theory. I mean, why else would there be a stop in the middle of the battle of the Gardens just for Squall to explain what the Griever is?
Plus, it kinda makes sense for Rinoa to utilize the thing Squall views as a being of strength to give her strength.
The theory is... In future, everything seems going well. Rinoa and Squall are in love, their friends are supporting them. But life is just so uncertain. Perhaps at any circumstances, SeeD in all over the world pursuing Sorceress Rinoa in order to seal her. Remember, sorceress is a public enemy, that's why SeeD were established. If public sees sorceress as unharmful person any longer, logic is SeeD should be terminated down sooner.
When people and SeeD fight against Rinoa, Squall is standing right there as her knight. Eventually this fight ends up in tragedy, Squall dies at very young age in future. This makes Rinoa sad and mad at very same time and launch her inner evil side, since Adel's power were in her as well.
Using magic, Rinoa tries to ressurected Squall but it does not work. In other way, Griever is revived as new founded Guardian Force and it junctioned into Rinoa. Slow but sure, Rinoa loss her memories almost about everything. What she remembers was SeeD is one thing she have to revenge on.
In far future when Rinoa finally escapes or wins against SeeD and people in her timeline, Rinoa remember one thing (or maybe heard from someone), that Ellone was live in the past. FYI, Ellone has the power to send one consciousness to the past. Rinoa aka Ultimecia now has a purpose to finds Ellone in order to make Time Compression; she wants to make an static time so that she can enjoy the happiness in the past for the eternity. She might didn't remember about Squall anymore. But she knows she was happy before with someone, and she tries to figure it out in the past. So sad to think about it.
Using time machine that created by Odine in the past (in far future, this machine should be improved a lot), Ultimecia posses Edea (since Edea is the only exist sorceress in Ellone timeline; Adel were sealed in space). Luckily Matroan (Edea) succeed escapes Ellone to the hand of White SeeD before, so Ultimecia fails to find Ellone. Heard of this threat, Cid along with Norg establish Three Gardens and create SeeD. But she won't stop there. Ultimecia in Edea's body then claim her throne in Deling City, cooperate with corrupted President Deling and takes him as a refuge. That's why Edea is safe for a long time even when people in the world and SeeD were all against her. And the rest is the FF VIII story.
NB: if someone of you argue that Ultimecia had different accent when saying c words in k, such like 'kurse you...', which makes her impossible as Rinoa, then take a look at Ultimecia last conversation with Matron before she passed away. She speaks English accent in normal way! Yes, it means Ultimecia has two accents. Perhaps when someone very upset, some people are able to speak with heavy accent because of emotional sentiment. For example: 'are you krazyyy??'. Nah we used it sometimes in daily right.
I mean, refusing theory of R=U just because English accent is just substantiating evidence.
You can't forget that Squall mentioned that if she became a sorceress to rule the world that he would be her knight.
You can say what you want about Ultimecia being a sudden addition to the end of the game, but it's nowhere near as bad as Necron from FF9 who just parachutes into the game and says "I'm the final boss now, RAAAAAGGGHHHHH!"
Great video. The story in this game is so great, I believe they were scared not to make it too complicated, so they left some plot lines, but hints were already build in the game. I also kind of missed that Laguna is Squall dad. I thought Rinoa went mad over the time and transformed into Ultimecia, Angelo her dog was actually a GF and he transformed into this Cat powerful GF. She had her grief only for lost one so she renamed him to Griever. Ultimecia is the opposite to Rinoa. bad-good, red dress - blue dress, white hair - black hair, cat pet(GF) - dog pet (GF). Ultimecia had also Seifer as guardian knight (just like Rinoa had Squall) and like Rinoa she dropped him off because he was not her true love and protector. I believe time compression happened at some point and Rinoa could not find Squall, they could not keep their promise and this broke her. Probably over time her memory was lost and only the her GF Griever remained. She wanted time compression to go back to this very moment. When they defeated Ultimecia in the end , Rinoa has found Squall and he didn't die. The lost mad version of Rinoa from the future --> Ultimecia never happened.
After accepting R=U, the theory for Ultimecias seemingly senseless attempts to kill her long lost lover Squall and past self Rinoa in the time compressed world would be that, the continuous use of GFs over the centuries have drained her core memories to the point of forgetting who they are. So not just a loss of her lover, but a loss of herself, which is an ultimate conclusion to her pessimist view of passage of time. Makes the game that much more fucked up. I like it
20:18 I wonder about the attachment part of the wings basically looking like a loop. They could have chosen to design it in another way, but they chose a loop.
Plus, it is a basic guideline of writing that the villain be personally connected to the protagonist, not just some random big bad that shows up out of nowhere and the protag vows to defeat without having any personal stakes in it.
That's why the Rinoa-Ultimecia connection makes so much more sense.
During the ball she immediately gravitates towards him. As if she recognised him despite the two never knowing each other before. Sure, she says he's the most handsome guy there, but this feels like a flimsy excuse. She wasn't in tne orphanage, she had no motivation to bring Squall out of his shell, unless compelled to do this by a bubbling memory of them being together before
you know what would be cool? if ultimecia's first stage has a second phase where she uses "angel wings" and gives herself haste, reflect (that gets demoted to shell after a couple turns), and protect. for added coolness, her wings could open up and the black feathers could fall off revealing a white layer underneath
and for an even deeper level to the iceberg, rinoa could get a shell effect when she uses angel wings and has a small chance of attacking herself
Excellent analysis as always! Thank you for this ^_^
I personally don't see the connection between Rinoa & Ultimecia. Edea is a prime example. She was a Sorceress long before Ultimecia possessed her. Did Edea go on a rampage before then? No, she didn't. Both Edea & Rinoa wanted to be good people & were good people.
Adel on the other hand was very clearly evil, and even by Adel's appearance, heavily monstrous. Adel wasn't possessed by anyone, heck Ultimecia wasn't aware of Adel til much much later.
And if Rinoa really was Ultimecia, then she would've known about Adel, and she would've known about quite a number of other events, such as Rinoa's memory of killing Ultimecia.
Ultimecia in the final fight does indeed mention that she will pull the thing that Squall sees as the strongest thing in existence and use it against him. Now tell me, if she was Rinoa and was ALREADY in possession of Griever, what would be the point of pulling it out of someone else's mind? GF's get stronger as your bond with them increases and thus allows them to use greater & greater power, compounded by the power of the user - In other words, Ultimecia's GF in this (dumb) theory would be MUCH MUCH more powerful than Squall's.
There are other things to consider: Possession. Possessing someone requires overtaking their mind. The mind is what allows us to control our bodies. But what else is in the mind? Memories and Knowledge. Ultimecia possessed both Edea and Rinoa, then finally Adel in an effort to use that power she wanted to use. Again, lets say she is Rinoa, then her Possession of Rinoa would be like a reminder for her: "Wait, I'm possessing myself, I remember being possessed before" and would've known about her past self's attempt to assassinate Edea, that Seifer would lose multiple times, and that Edea would eventually be freed of her will, and thus would inevitably lead to her death.
If she REALLY was Rinoa, she'd have knowledge of events that ALREADY HAPPENED FOR HER.
And on to the whole bit of her forgetting Squall and becoming Ultimecia in an effort to find him again: Easy solution: DON'T ENACT THE PLAN, the future inevitably changes, and since there was no "Time Compression" that caused Rinoa to lose Squall in the first place, they'd never lose each other.
And how the bloody hell does it make any sense to try to kill the one you love, the one you've been trying to find all this time, multiple times????
Yes, GFs causes you to lose your memories, but as stated earlier, if she already had Griever, there'd be no reason to pull it out of Squall's mind, especially since her Griever would be much more powerful. And again if she were Rinoa, simply possessing her younger self would be enough to jog her memory!
And finally, since GFs causes you to lose your memory, then wouldn't she had forgotten about Squall ENTIRELY by then? Seifer was forgetting about things as well and did end up reverting to his old ways, and since Time Compression would have eliminated a huge chunk of her memory, using a GF constantly (as theorists claim) would have significantly erased more of her past, Rinoa met Squall she was a Young Adult, so if she had a GF and had been constantly using it, for whatever reason, the memory of Squall would've been long gone, which defeats the entire point of doing time compression in an effort to save someone you can't remember... How do you save someone when you can't remember them? How can you still love this person when you can't remember them?
And yes, Sorceress powers are Inherited but at the choice of the Sorceress in their final moments. They cannot die until they pass on their powers to another. And if Ultimecia is Rinoa, then wouldn't it make more sense to pass on that power to your younger self? Instead Ultimecia gave it to Edea, the very woman she possessed previously.
No one is born a sorceress, it was explained and shown in the game ffs. It's like the theorists have been using GFs of their own, otherwise they'd know this fact. Plus he's another one for you all - Edea has always been a Brunette even before she acquired serious power from Ultimecia, why didn't her hair color change? People are claiming that Rinoa is Ultimecia, both have different hair colors, both look young, what would be the point of changing your hair color to match a person you previously fought so hard to defeat? Why get the exact same tattoos? Why dress up in the exact same outfit? Rinoa lost Squall after they defeated Ultimecia, so why make yourself look exactly like the being your lover previously killed?????? Do you see the inconsistencies of this theory??? It makes no bloody sense for Rinoa and Ultimecia to be the same person.
Plus, there's another inconsistency to think about. She inherited Ultimecia's powers. She saw Ultimecia's face. Which would mean she would much later see Rinoa's face and have seen the connection. Plus EVERYONE ELSE, they all would've had the same thought: "Ultimecia oddly looks like Rinoa", yet none of them did.
Here's a more likely possibility: She's a descendent, not an immediate like daughter or grand daughter, but very likely several generations. Could the descendant inherit the powers needed from another Sorceress? Yes. Entirely possible. It's not passed on like genetics, it's passed on by the choice of the dying Sorceress. And there'd could have been several Sorceresses after Edea and whoever else might've been a Sorceress.
It's way more likely that Ultimecia did it for selfish reasons just like every other Final Boss of The Final Fantasy series.
Every Final Boss has one goal in mind, more power. And once they've achieved whatever goal they want, they want to destroy absolutely everything. Kefka, Neo-Ex-Death, Zeromus, Sephiroth, and many others tried to end everything. It sounds more like the theorists are just desperate to make the final boss seem relatable in an effort to make her different from the other Final Bosses.
Ultimecia is the rinoa that didn't get saved. Corrupt timeline
@@12trijavirgo18 Or you're just desperate for your theory to be right. It makes no bloody sense.
Corrupt timeline... try again.
@@Gyrannon the last picture you see before Squall cries. Picture was shown for a reason. Corrupt timeline.
Awesome! you're growing man!
Fuck you Mike
I feel like I already commented on so many of your videos about all of these Ultimecia theories, so please excuse me for bringing it up again.
I just think that now it doesnt really matter to me anymore if Rinoa is actually Ultimecia or not. I feel like there is a solid thematic basis for basically any possible interpretation of FF8s events and I think that is beautiful in itself. Wheather the Antagonist serves as a tragic figure with a close connection to the main party or as an enigmatic personification of the games themes, I think it now works for me either way.
The fact alone that the themes and the games events can be interpreted in multiple ways like that is really interesting to me, even if it did bother me for quite some time.
Other than that I feel like its important to respect the interpretations and theories of others, especially since I have already seen so many arguments become toxic between fans about which idea is right and wrong, when it mostly just depends on our own individual look at the games themes and how we ourselves would rather have it.
Anybody else think Rinoa & Ultimecia are stuck in a time loop? A time loop created bu time distortion. Ultimecia will always return to squalls orphanage and Rinoa will always search & seek Squall at the dance.
Always trying to relive her love while unable to change its fate.
I really, really liked this video.
I was only 12 when I played this game. I remember thinking Rinoa was so annoying, but cool. I wanted to be cute like her and to...STICK IT TO THE MAN! This game was so much more complex than I remember.
The theory you went over was so interesting to me. I'm older now, so it seems I need to play this game and see everything I never really noticed.
Thank you so much for sharing your brilliance with us. ⭐
Thanks for the feedback, glad you enjoyed it !
The game is absolutely filled with things that scream R=U but to me the biggest is when Squall and Rinoa agree that if they ever get lost, they'll meet at the flower field - she'll be waiting for him there. Later, Ultimecia's castle is in that exact spot. I mean come on. When Kitase "denied" it he had to be winking. Either that or he and the writer aren't on the same page.
I didn't play Dissidia but I've heard there's even more R=U stuff in the game.
I like your point about the location of her castle! I'm sure I'd read a counter-argument to that somewhere too, like Ultimecia went back in time to kill Squall and knew the Rinoa promise would lead him there? Not sure, but a lot of discussions exist about the subject which keeps it interesting!
FF Mobius also made Ultimecia do Rinoa's trademark. Maybe that's just for enticing the fans, or maybe that's a hint.. who knows. Yeah, sometimes I thought maybe the representative speaker was not on the same page as the writer, or maybe not.. who knows..
Kitase, said Rinoa and Ultimecia is not the same person. While true, you can also say, a person who lost her memory and whose personality is now the complete opposite of what she had is not the same person that you know of. Semantics and mind games.
I've never thought of R=U as being at all Canon but rather that Ultimecia is the representation of all the things people fear and hate of sorceresses while Rinoa Represents all the positive aspects of sorceresses that people don't get to see
From 20:38 to the end is the best part of the video.
Thank you, glad you agree with that summary :)
In the book entitled The Legend Of FF VIII, I also read that Rinoa/Ultimecia theory and I was astonished some ppl couold actually think that. It's brilliantly debunked on the book, if I remember well.
Thanks a lot for this vid, I like it most rather than the one on Squall, tbh.
++
Thank you for the book tip!
So, after recently beating the game again, I'd like to throw in an additional bit that got me to thinking more about this theory, as a sort of amendment to my other comment I left.
I never noticed in the original as a kid, in the final form of Ultimicia, that the lower half of her is a body, junctioned to the top, faceless part that addresses herself as Ultimicia, possibly being her "true" form. She has to draw Apocalypse from the dangling body in order to cast it. Maybe Ultimicia isn't actually Rinoa... but instead had possessed the future Rinoa as a host body and has stayed Junctioned to her, like Adel had done to Rinoa. It got me thinking and wanting to find more about this idea but it seems more elusive than just the theories saying she is or isn't.
They, suspiciously gave Rinoa Apocalypse in Dissidia.
It could perhaps be that the entity of Ulitimicia has actually preyed on the intent and memories of Rinoa in the future or became one by some other tragic thing that sort of plays into a lot of the hints to the theory as well. Perhaps Ultimicia is an entity separate from Rinoa, but lives on through her in some part of the weird time shenanigans going on in this game.
I know that when you go to target her lower half, it's also just named "Ultimicia" but at that point, it could just be that the two are passed junction and truly are one by that point, or at least Ultimicia has made it so. It's just an interesting hint as to what might actually be going on. A sort of host/parasite situation.
In a way, maybe both answers are true.
Interesting consideration!
Interesting point of view! I just finished the game today (after 15 years or so when I have played the PSX version) I love both FFX and FFVIII and replayed them as remastered versions. The more recent beeing FFVIII. It happened, that I have noticed some similarities in styles: e.g. costumes in 8 look like priestress robes in FF10. Also some people behave like Guados (long arms..) and then the final form of Ultimecia. As you stated, she has two body parts. Like Anima. For I am not a skilled gamer by means of active time battle system, I couldn‘t enjoy other titbits throughout the fight. So great to see the fan theories and attentiveness of other gamers! thanks for sharing your thoughts.
It just never made any sense how ultimecia came to aquire griever until this theory came out.. But now they say it's not the case.. Soooo, how did ultimecia end up with griever then?
Someone please clarify...
The theory is... In future, everything seems going well. Rinoa and Squall are in love, their friends are supporting them. But life is just so uncertain. Perhaps at any circumstances, SeeD in all over the world pursuing Sorceress Rinoa in order to seal her. Remember, sorceress is a public enemy, that's why SeeD were established. If public sees sorceress as unharmful person any longer, logic is SeeD should be terminated down sooner.
When people and SeeD fight against Rinoa, Squall is standing right there as her knight. Eventually this fight ends up in tragedy, Squall dies at very young age in future. This makes Rinoa sad and mad at very same time and launch her inner evil side, since Adel's power were in her as well.
Using magic, Rinoa tries to ressurected Squall but it does not work. In other way, Griever is revived as new founded Guardian Force and it junctioned into Rinoa. Slow but sure, Rinoa loss her memories almost about everything. What she remembers was SeeD is one thing she have to revenge on.
In far future when Rinoa finally escapes or wins against SeeD and people in her timeline, Rinoa remember one thing (or maybe heard from someone), that Ellone was live in the past. FYI, Ellone has the power to send one consciousness to the past. Rinoa aka Ultimecia now has a purpose to finds Ellone in order to make Time Compression; she wants to make an static time so that she can enjoy the happiness in the past for the eternity. She might didn't remember about Squall anymore. But she knows she was happy before with someone, and she tries to figure it out in the past. So sad to think about it.
Using time machine that created by Odine in the past (in far future, this machine should be improved a lot), Ultimecia posses Edea (since Edea is the only exist sorceress in Ellone timeline; Adel were sealed in space). Luckily Matroan (Edea) succeed escapes Ellone to the hand of White SeeD before, so Ultimecia fails to find Ellone. Heard of this threat, Cid along with Norg establish Three Gardens and create SeeD. But she won't stop there. Ultimecia in Edea's body then claim her throne in Deling City, cooperate with corrupted President Deling and takes him as a refuge. That's why Edea is safe for a long time even when people in the world and SeeD were all against her. And the rest is the FF VIII story.
NB: if someone of you argue that Ultimecia had different accent when saying c words in k, such like 'kurse you...', which makes her impossible as Rinoa, then take a look at Ultimecia last conversation with Matron before she passed away. She speaks English accent in normal way! Yes, it means Ultimecia has two accents. Perhaps when someone very upset, some people are able to speak with heavy accent because of emotional sentiment. For example: 'are you krazyyy??'. Nah we used it sometimes in daily right.
I mean, refusing theory of R=U just because English accent is just substantiating evidence.
@@DanielNevada That's fascinating! It all makes sense now! Wow, I appreciate the explanation! Thank you!
The "official" explanation is that Ultimecia took it from Squall's mind during the last fight. It's Squall's idea of the most powerful GF...even though Squall never actually referred to Griever as a GF. Further, Ulti never specifically said she took it from Squall's mind.
It's a BS explanation.
But she does explain that she will use the protagonist fears to defeat them. Hence Griever... Because she can also access Squall's memories since she mentions the orphanage and all...
It's harder to explain why Rinoa isn't Ultimecia than it is to explain that she is Ultimecia. There is no way the writers accidently gave 1000 hints to Ultimecia being Rinoa. The only explanation that Rinoa isn't Ultimecia is the writers were literally not paying attention to what they were writing. If Ultimecia is just some random sorceress than there is no point in putting her castle on the place Rinoa said she'd wait for Squall, Griever, Rinoa telling Squall that he might have to kill her and the freaky ending that literally blends Ultimecia and Rinoa together. Also when Ultimecia tells the people to bow to the new sorceress in Edea's body she has Rinoa on the stage as well.
Absolutely beautiful analysis! I'd love to add two more points to the R=U theory for you to consider.
1) Sorceress lifespan. We don't know for sure what is meant by "a sorceress cannot die as long as she has her powers", but i interpret it as sorceresses are immortal and do not age. One uncanny piece of evidence to support this is how Edea in the endgame party FMV looks identical to the Matron from 13ish years ago. Considering other works that explore immortality, specifically the tragedy of the elves in lord of the rings, I think being a sorceress would have a profound effect on Rinoa's psyche and outlook on life, especially as time passes and others age while she doesn't. I think she would grow to be less and less like the Rinoa in the game as more time passes, unless she manages to find a successor (as far as we know, she is the only sorceress remaining at the end of the game and it's an open question whether she will find a successor.)
In any case, until Square canonizes either a successor for Rinoa or another sorceress from a different lineage, we have to assume Rinoa IS Ultimecia 🙃
2) Hyne. I think in discussing Rinoa becoming Ultimecia, we can't leave out the context of the origin of sorcery itself. We know from the old man in Balamb and the teacher on the white seed ship that Hyne created humans to be his tools, who revolted against him and were able to corner him. Why did he disperse his powers into human women? Why can these women pass their powers on?
My personal theory is Hyne, a god, has been waiting eons for his powers to reunite in one being, presumably Ultimecia. Her very name implies she is the "ultimate", the "end of a process", i.e. the end of the succession. To your point about the inherent contradiction of a Rinoa-Ultimecia going back in time to kill herself, I believe that it's because she's not quite herself -- the combined power of Hyne has overwhelmed her mind to restart his war, triggered by a tragic loss such as Squall's death. But it could be Rinoa's hope to see her friends again left a kind of impression on Hyne, inspiring him to use time compression as his vehicle to conquer humanity -- which has the interesting side effect of combining every moment into one, allowing now to last forever.
I think this theory of mine resolves a contradiction in ultimecia, how on the one hand she aggressively seeks dominance and to make humans her slaves forever, while at the same time giving her cryptic lamentations about time. A sort of split-personality duality in her between the powerful and dismissive Hyne and the loving, grieving Rinoa i think would be quite fascinating to see developed.
Cheers John. Yeah good points on the immortality aspect particularly around Edea through the games timeline. I'm also interested by the Hyne mythology which isn't fully explained to us, I do wonder if they'll revisit that in future
The official guidebook FFVIII Ultimania released by Square Enix stated that sorceress have normal human lifespan.
the only good rinoa/ultimecia video i've seen, thank you. i agree with you, a lot of the theory makes sense, but trying to kill her younger self is where it really loses traction. I also liked the Seifer is the antithesis of Squall as Ultimecia is to Rinoa opinion you threw in there, that rings true for me. From the very beginning of the game we see Squall and more or less his opposite in certain ways much like Neo/Smith, so it would make a lot of sense to also give Rinoa this dynamic by comparing her bright personality to Ultimecia's hatred for all things.
Damn. as many times as I've played this game I never picked up that Julia is Rinoa's Mother. How did you figure that one out? I guess they tell us at some point I must have missed it
Yeah I didn't notice it for ages! If I remember right, in the Laguna flashback dream where Kiros visits Winhill, there's a dialogue option where Raine/Kiros mention Julia writing 'Eyes on me' about a love that never returned (Laguna), and then marrying General Caraway. There's also an 'Information' panel about characters somewhere in the menu screen that has biographies after you meet/mention certain characters.
@@AlleywayJack damn! i never knew about the info panel either. i'll definitely read through that ASAP! thanks bro
During one of Laguna's flashback, Raine states that Julia was so depressed since her love interest didn't come back from war (Laguna) that she composed the song Eyes on me and was solaced by general Caraway. And we know that Caraway is Rinoa's dad so...
The point is that the impossible love between Laguna and Julia is finally made real through their sons Squall (Laguna and Raine) and Rinoa (Julia and Caraway). When they met at the party, they dance a waltz version of the Eyes on me song.
i play it 4 to 6 time.. i just release julia is rinoa mom. and boom.
Rinoa is not Ultimecia. This is not even open to debate. One literally has to ignore the story and official interviews to believe that. I do not know why these comments still exist.
Yeah, can we focus on something less stupid and more interesting cuse theres so fucking much to unpack from how beautiful this game is and all anyone talks about is “rinoa = Ultimicia 🤯”
The writter who debunked it retracted his comment because there were multiple other writers.
I made a comment here that also points out how in the game Ultimecia is said to be from 'generations' into the future, and there's no indication that sorceresses live longer than normal, so she couldn't even be alive then. I don't know why FF8 has some of the most stupid theories floating around it.
I like to think that Ultimecia is attacking the SeeD because theres hardly any of Rinoa left in her
She's gone Mad in grief after Squall died
The theory is... In future, everything seems going well. Rinoa and Squall are in love, their friends are supporting them. But life is just so uncertain. Perhaps at any circumstances, SeeD in all over the world pursuing Sorceress Rinoa in order to seal her. Remember, sorceress is a public enemy, that's why SeeD were established. If public sees sorceress as unharmful person any longer, logic is SeeD should be terminated down sooner.
When people and SeeD fight against Rinoa, Squall is standing right there as her knight. Eventually this fight ends up in tragedy, Squall dies at very young age in future. This makes Rinoa sad and mad at very same time and launch her inner evil side, since Adel's power were in her as well.
Using magic, Rinoa tries to ressurected Squall but it does not work. In other way, Griever is revived as new founded Guardian Force and it junctioned into Rinoa. Slow but sure, Rinoa loss her memories almost about everything. What she remembers was SeeD is one thing she have to revenge on.
In far future when Rinoa finally escapes or wins against SeeD and people in her timeline, Rinoa remember one thing (or maybe heard from someone), that Ellone was live in the past. FYI, Ellone has the power to send one consciousness to the past. Rinoa aka Ultimecia now has a purpose to finds Ellone in order to make Time Compression; she wants to make an static time so that she can enjoy the happiness in the past for the eternity. She might didn't remember about Squall anymore. But she knows she was happy before with someone, and she tries to figure it out in the past. So sad to think about it.
Using time machine that created by Odine in the past (in far future, this machine should be improved a lot), Ultimecia posses Edea (since Edea is the only exist sorceress in Ellone timeline; Adel were sealed in space). Luckily Matroan (Edea) succeed escapes Ellone to the hand of White SeeD before, so Ultimecia fails to find Ellone. Heard of this threat, Cid along with Norg establish Three Gardens and create SeeD. But she won't stop there. Ultimecia in Edea's body then claim her throne in Deling City, cooperate with corrupted President Deling and takes him as a refuge. That's why Edea is safe for a long time even when people in the world and SeeD were all against her. And the rest is the FF VIII story.
NB: if someone of you argue that Ultimecia had different accent when saying c words in k, such like 'kurse you...', which makes her impossible as Rinoa, then take a look at Ultimecia last conversation with Matron before she passed away. She speaks English accent in normal way! Yes, it means Ultimecia has two accents. Perhaps when someone very upset, some people are able to speak with heavy accent because of emotional sentiment. For example: 'are you krazyyy??'. Nah we used it sometimes in daily right.
I mean, refusing theory of R=U just because English accent is just substantiating evidence.
@@DanielNevada Sorceresses are not immortal, they all die.
And it is said that only one Sorceress exists on each generation so basically Rinoa can't live during Squall's timeline then be dead and then gets back to life in the future : it doesn't make sense. She can't exist on 2 different eras.
Ellone's power is quite limited as she states during the game that she can only access the memories of someone she knows (that works for Squall but not for Rinoa, for instance).
And, of course, if SeeD manages to kill Squall because he's Rinoa's knight, then that means Rinoa is actually captured and if she's captured, she can't do any harm (just like Sorceress Adel was captured and put into space).
I don't understand how one of the directors who shot down this idea could dislike the concept of Rinoa and Ultimecia being the same person so much. If this were leaned on further in any potential remake, I think it'd fill some of biggest holes the story leaves (not plot wise, but as in you feel like there's something missing to the narrative) and make ff8 stand out further. It already has Rinoa being a near perfect foil to Ultimecia, but Ultimecia is a foil to Squall as well with this theory; where as Squall starts off introverted then later opens up through the force of love, Rinoa starts off as a happy extrovert who loses her sanity and becomes isolated through the loss of love to become Ultimecia.
I think it's the theory I prefer over Squall being dead (which the same director liked and said they'd consider for a remake). Plus there's some more rebuttals against it (not that I dislike the theory at all), mainly Ellone and the various mentions of gf usage being linked to memory loss, even Irvine's rather dramatic introduction and hesitance to shoot Edea. The story was always meant to be fantastic and out there, I don't think the shift between the tones between disks is that big of a deal.
Search youtube for,
"Yoshinori Kitase retracts his statement on Rinoa/Ultimecia fan theory being debunked"
Why couldn’t they have remade THIS game instead of FF VII, SquareEnix always gives attention to FF VII, and great games like this one really suffer because of it.
If they remade this game, so many new changes could be made because it involves Time, and Ultimecia being able to manipulate it to her liking.
All the great theories that all of us fans spoke of and thought about, could actually become Canon and True, if SquareEnix were to ever surprise us with a Final Fantasy VIII Remake.
It would be awesome if they gave players great choices to have branching paths throughout their quest if Final Fantasy VIII was ever remade.
Just imagine the great possibilities of storytelling 🤔.
Characters like Squall, Rinoa, Irvine, Seifer, Laguna, Edea and Quistis would all be very different if they were given certain choices throughout the Final Fantasy VIII game.
It does feel like a lot of the time travel/ paradox ideas being alluded to in FF7:R would make more sense for an FF8 sequel since time compression is such a huge part of the plot. But yeah, I would hope the success of FF7 Remake would make them look at FF6 or FF8 for remakes too
I would choose Rinoa over Yuna any day.
I always knew Rinoa wasn’t Ultimecia, it was so funny is school when I was the only one that said she was a broken lonely sorceress from the future trying to get back what was taken from her, and the others said she was Rinoa. Glad I was finally proved right lol
ya >8(
love it!
The numerous save points just kicked a whole door in on my sad mortal brain. I knew it meant something. Wow.
Brilliant video!
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it :)
My theory is ultimacia is the daughter of rinoa and squall from the distant future.. And i believe she hates her dad so much and is also obsessed of her mothers sorceress powers that she tricks her to transfer her powers to her. Rinoa and Squall didnt have time for ultimacia for squall is busy being the commander of balamb garden and Rinoa the sorceress, became the most loved ruler of her country with the help of Squall. Ultimacia grew up hating her parents that shes obsessed on destroying her dad and SeeD that the only way is time compression. Ultemacia cant destroy her dad in her time because Squall was too powerful for her and she also wants to stop the founding of Garden to stop creating future Seeds and by doing that she needs time compression so that she wouldn't worry and stil exist in the world. Ultimacia stole the ring from rinoa because she knew it was the symbol of her parents love, that ultimacia creates it into a GF so that symbol will be the one to destroy them. Ultemacia was told a story from her grandfather laguna about her Aunt Ellones ability to bring the consciousness of people back to the past and she also learned about the junction machine ellone that Dr. Odine invented which the doctor get the idea from the ability of ellone. Ultimacia has the same appearance as her mothers white angel wings but Ultimacia has black wings for she was corrupted and obsessed with power and immortality while her mother was a pure kinded sorceress with the help of squall, rinoa kept in her mind and put it her heart what the previous sorceress Edea advice her to always have your knight by her side and Ultemacia doesnt have knight and maybe this is why she became psychotic.
But you seem to forget that Sorceresses powers are not hereditary...
@@chrysm6842 i never said it was hereditary... Its either rinoa was tricked or killed by ultimacia so that rinoa can transfer her powers to her so she could die or ultimacia found a way to extract a sorceress powers. ultimacias timeline was the future so its not impossible and there is a big chance that the scientists odin help create that kind of machine, its possible because he even built a machine that has the same function as ellones powers.
Good one.
The funnest thing in all this is the rumor is now un-debunked!
Yeah I saw that interview. Square team moving the goalposts on the canon now 😅
@@AlleywayJack honestly it’s such a good theory. If it’s a coincidence than it’s just divine intervention lol. I was so happy when I saw the video where they said it’s entirely possible. Let me get my tinfoil hat back
Ultimecia wanted to kill them because she wants to reach her goals and she had enough of love and wanted destroying her old self along squall
As has been stated several times the devs debunked the R=U theory and I believe it was stated I'm the game that Ultimecia was a powerful sorceress from her time but was constantly under attack by SeeD and her actions in the past created a stable time loop where her and Squall end up at the orphanage where Squall tells edea about SeeD thus giving her the knowledge to create SeeD then Squall becomes a seed defeats Ultimecia then who knows how long in to the future a young Ultimecia is born and at some point gains her power later the SeeDs attack her she retaliated and this started a war between them ultimecia then uses the machine of ellobes powrr to transfer her mind to edea thus starting the events of the game and eventually leading to her defeat and at the end/beginning of the loop
Ultimecia trying to kill Squall and Rinoa is not a plot hole for the theory. According to the theory Ultimecia forgot Squall and that she was Rinoa because she used G.F. for a long time.
But in the end I still don't believe the theory anymore. It kinda ruins the theme of FF8.
The story is a mess anyways
@@Pikachu-qr4yb debunked. Move on. NEXT
@@emiliovega21 Debunked that the story was a mess??
That could be but another thing I wonder is at the end Squall gets stuck in a time loop and I sort of wonder if that was Ultimecia's plan from the beginning. She was also trying to kill her former self because that was the only way Squall would escape the time loop.
4:28 thats a huge truck, lol
😂 that is pretty wild
I reckon ultimecia could be rinoa, without it being a tragic ending. What if ultimecia is rinoa from the future, but when you kill ultimecia, that timeline where rinoa becomes ultimecia dissapears. And rinoa then goes on to live happily. So just like rinoa helped squall fight his own inner demons, squall also fought rinoas inner demon, literally. I think thats the best of both worlds. Its still a happy ending.
i saw somebody's opinion mentioning that, in FF1, the heroes need to break the time loop to get their happy ending; while in FF8, they need to maintain the time loop of defeating Ultimecia so that they will not get the tragic ending. But i also like your idea.
I think that is why the ending is so great. When Rinoa pulls Squall out of the time-loop she chose her own path and not the path of her future self.
I’ve always thought that the sorceress spirit was some evil timeless entity that has always existed (as far as the games plot is concerned.) to enslave humanity for some unknown reason. Sin maybe? Who knows. Anyway…
The possibility to me is time compression wasn’t just the compression of all time, but all timeLINES as well (think dr strange in avengers.). Rinoamecia realizes through this that the only way to defeat the entity and save everyone is for the fated events to happen, including Squall surviving his fight with Edea and the icicles to the chest, which could have been a major turning point. It’s possible she felt guilty for it feeling like she much caused it to happen both through her impulsiveness and the sorceress spirit itself as Edea.
Anyway, Rinoamecia sets the games coincidences in motion before completely succumbing to the sorceress spirit (because as we see in game, sorceress puppets still existin the body they are just possessed. Edea is a major example of this I think.).
It seems also that the sorceress spirit’s motivations are to Rule the world, not freeze it in a sort of time compression. Both sorceresses we see in game besides Ultimecia existed alongside humans but to subjugate them not eradicate them. It’s a strange shift in what the true antagonist’s intentions are to me; very different brands of evil if you will.
The entire plot is really ambiguous anyway. So many random, poorly explained elements, and this is from a guy who loves the golden era of final fantasy without exceptions. I actually feel that all of those games’ endings were intentionally left up for interpretation. Even 9, wtf was Necro? It ultimately adds charm, and community through theories like this, and keeps people talking about it to this day. Now whether intentional or not? Who can say.
My only problem with the theory is why would Ultimecia try to kill Riona which is herself?
She doesn't remember die to using GF. Just how the entire party forgot they were orphan siblings
@@Pikachu-qr4yb well that is true.
It is saif that Ultimecia is a Sorceress from the future. And if you believe she is Rinoa, then it would be a time paradox to have both Rinoa and Ultimecia at the same time, enbodied by 2 different bodies.
Because of the ending when Rinoa pulls Squall out of the time-loop. Ultimecia most likely thought of her past self as a threat to her plans.
Why would Ultimecia- while possessing Edea- feed her own self (Rinoa) to the Iguions?
Ultimecia conjured the GF "Griever" because it would be a mindf*ck for Squall to defeat it, since it is, for a lack of a better term, his spirit animal.
I want to remind everybody in the comments who hasn't picked up on this yet, but the Ultimecia = Rinoa theory has already been debunked by the devs. They did however show interest in it and they like it. Take it as you will, I would have been fully content with the theory being confirmed, but let's not get ahead of ourselves and start assuming things to be true when they aren't.
Bottom line is however, that both characters are great to compare and as many stated, they can add a lot of depth to each other. But they are not the same person.
It changes the context a little when you consider that the localization team gave Caraway a promotion from Colonel to General. That's kind of a big difference in how important Fury is to his government, though it does explain why he has to resort to a crappy and cobbled together assassination plan (ironically similar to what his daughter would probably do [aw...they're more similar than they think]) instead of a more formal coup (and maybe an assassination too, but more organized, since the Witch [localized as Sorceress but not changed in the OST names] is clearly bad news). The whole androgynous term 'witch' also might explain how the very masculine (and probably a man) Abel (localized as Adel) can be a witch, despite how that goes against the whole Hyne-related origin story about only giving the power to females. It does lead to a lot of Manwich jokes, though.
So guys, can you give me an answer, is Rinoa and Seifer do "that". I know the romance squareenix put her suvk, i just want a clarification from SE about this. I buy this game for a 50$ and you give me this suvk romance. Give me your clarification
First of all, FF VIII was made by squaresoft (not by SE since the fusion came to fruition years after FF VIII was made).
Yes, Seifer and Rinoa had a romance love affair together. It is mentionned in the game, when it's said that Seifer must have been executed after what he did in Timber (when he captured president Deling and threatened his life).
Search on youtube for;
"Yoshinori Kitase retracts his statement on Rinoa/Ultimecia fan theory being debunked"
He doesn't exactly retract it, though. He's just it wasn't something he was considering when working on the story, but it's possible the other writers were.
legendary *S E E D*
I believe in all Theories there are so many hinds and connections between rinoa and ultimecia .... the problem is ultimecias Story was undeveloped the game doesnt have much content about her
I hope they change it in the future remake
I dont care that square denied All These theories fact is they both look similar both have connection with griever and also when the time compression Comes u See rinoas face being futured to ultimecia so wtf square soft and thats Not all there are many many other hinds
I think Ultimecia is Rinoa's and Squall's or Seifer's Offspring. Odine bangle that she owned before even meeting Seeds, it is suppressing her sorceress power. So most likely she would not have become evil on her own, However a granddaughter in the future? Inheriting her Sorceress Power namely White Wing turned Black Wing, if only because of her being Persucated perhaps they found a way to kill Sorceress for good without them passing on their powers? And Ultimecia hunted etc just snapped went mad with rage and killed shit. it is implied that she learned of Seeds coming to kill her but perhaps it's rather than Squalls Timeline of Seeds that there were some Seeds still alive in her own timeline that she thought COULD kill her. And she decided time travel unmake the existence of seeds before me meaning no Seeds, nothing to worry makes sense no? Think about it she is mad as a hat popping out rabbits.
Also if you want to state Sorceress needing a knight to not go dark well to put it simple Seifer wanted to become a Sorceress Knight regardless of Seed or not so most likely no Seeds=Army man Seifer meets Rinoa who is a daughter of a general. or Squall becoming a Soldier like his 'dad' started out to be to put it simply. Ultimecia was probably fated to die at hands of Seeds, all she probably did in the past was make her death a never-ending escape-able circle of death in a time loop.
For myself, I think that the narrative and themes of the game really push towards the reading that Ultimecia is a potential version of Rinoa. As you have stated, Rinoa's pathos and existential angst over the uncertainty of the future and the loss of self, married with the fear of persecution, mirrors Ultimecia's situation where all of those fears become validated.
On the Ragnarok, Rinoa said something along the lines of "I just want the present to last forever, no future to worry about." This might be a quirk of the English script, but that's too close to Ultimecia's endgame to not imply what could be Rinoa's ultimate fate.
As far as Ultimecia's plot, it is possible that she has only the faintest glimmer of who she once was due to years of junctioning GFs, and only remembers enough that a woman named Rinoa and a man named Squall were instrumental in her suffering- perhaps when she dies, she remembers the joy she experienced, which is why she passes on her powers to Edea, kickstarting the cycle again, almost like Elone sending the gang through Laguna's memories to, if not able to physically change, at least grow and learn from the past.
The bittersweet ambiguity of Rinoa's future serves her thematic coloring marvelously, as she lives and loves in the moment regardless of what may come. There might be a fate, maybe even a cruel one. After all, time claims us all eventually. If we are locked into what is going to happen to us, we can at least choose how we get there, through our worldview and bonds. Rinoa's arc is one of growth, change, and acceptance, and the version of her that becomes Ultimecia is one that rejects those ideals.
Will our Rinoa become Ultimecia? Maybe. Does that make it hopeless? As the cast learned, absolutely not.
(If you're wondering "if Rinoa is Ultimecia and she winds up not becoming her, how does the plot happen with no Ultimecia?", time compression allows all futures to collide at once, therefore, Squall and company could have returned to a future where Rinoa does/doesn't become Ultimecia)
best waifu and this theory is 100% canon. its the only way everything makes sense
Great video.
I was always a fan of this theory even though I don't think there's enough to say it's definitely what they were going for. I always find it annoying when people say Square refuted it themselves when it was just one person who said it wasn't true. Nothing to say he just didn't want it written in stone that it was true or nothing to say, like you said, that another writer was dropping hints for it independently. Also, I wouldn't like to take sources from outside the game, but Ultimecia wielding Squall's Gunblade and Rinoa's Blaster Edge in Dissidia was almost like a wry confirmation of the theory, or at least a nod to it as opposed to flatly denying it like some claim.
One thing you didn't mention is that the only present-day Sorceresses that we know of are Edea and Adel. Rinoa ends up inheriting both of their powers, which could explain how a super-sorceress like Ultimecia could come to be. Maybe all the sorceress power in the world ended up in Rinoa.
I think the wing symbolism is very significant. It's hard to look past Rinoa and Ultimecia sharing it, especially when it's such a core part of Rinoa's character. It's on her clothes, it's in her Limit Break and it's in her final weapon. The game even starts with feather imagery. For Ultimecia to share that motif seems like something that wouldn't be done randomly or carelessly.
I don't think they contrast in the same way that Seifer and Squall do. I haven't looked at your other videos (yet) but my theory for Squall and Seifer's rivalry is that Seifer idolises Laguna and so is naturally (and unconsciously) antagonistic towards Squall who is Laguna's true heir so to speak. I don't think there is any explanation for why Rinoa and Ultimecia would be similarly rival characters, but if they were the same person it could make sense.
There's also the scene in the final cutscene where Squall is breaking down and images of Rinoa and Ultimecia are flickering between each other, perhaps indicating that Squall is realising the truth.
As for Ultimecia's motive being strange, another commenter has already mentioned the GF-induced amnesia. I think it would be very consistent if Rinoa's fear of losing Squall in the end is what drives her interest in manipulating time and as she loses her memory, all that's left is a drive to stop time, i.e. time compression. It's not so much her own death that she is lamenting but rather Squall's perhaps.
The location of the Castle has been mentioned already too, in the flower field where they promised to wait for each other. Again there's some who say it's not actually at the field but given that that's our point of entry to the Castle, I'm happy that the association definitely exists. There's also the extravagant decoration of the castle which goes along with Rinoa's tastes.
Is there any theory around the "In the Garden sleeps a Messenger" title for the painting puzzle? I always found that fascinating. The Garden is obvious but then who is the Messenger and why does Ultimecia have that painting?
There's also the party's GF who end up in the Castle minibosses as Draws, the theory being that Rinoa ended up inheriting all of your GF, which we know can easily be passed from character to character. This is slightly contradictory though as they only end up in the bosses if you didn't acquire them in the first place. But there is still the link between Bahamut and Tiamat, who is apparently Bahamut after being corrupted by Ultimecia. How did he end up in the Castle? We know that Squall had some reverence for Bahamut because he recognises him and refers to him as "the great GF". So does Rinoa decide to take your greatest GF and make him a Castle guardian?
One other weakness in the theory though is that there is no real analogue for Angelo with Ultimecia. Angelo is a core part of Rinoa's early character so you would have to think that there would be some replacement for him if she was Ultimecia. I used to think it was Griever because she summons him in battle similar to how Rinoa summons Angelo. But apparently he is only conjured up at the moment we fight her. Maybe Angelo is something else that she loses to drive her to madness?
Such a great game to theorise on, shame it's so heavily underrated, though I'll grant that the gameplay mechanics are not great. Looking forward to watching your other vids!
Kitase retracted his denial that R=U, and said that he didn't know but that Nojima might have included that idea in the plot. Somebody should ask him.
Strange speculation here but could ultimcia be squall and rinoa's daughter?
Hey I wanted to ask if you plan on doing something similar to this for 13 and 15? I was checking your channel out notice you there was lot less content for 15 and I think none for 13. Either way it's fine, I really enjoy the channel especially ff12 stuff...
Eventually, but not in 2019 I'm afraid. It usually takes me a few playthroughs to understand the story enough to discuss it; and I've only played through 13 and 15 once each! I started a new game on 13 about a month ago though, it's the first time I've played it in 9 years.
@os terminal I've not played it before so couldn't say, but I do have it on Steam so will play eventually.
Here is how this is a happy end. Ultimecia will be the last Sorceress. With her all Sorceresses disappear, because she went back in time.
We don't know why this is a happy end, because we don't the future, but... maybe she needed to seal some kind horrible power away from the world... forever.
Was Rinoa Heartlily created as a direct response to Tifa Lockhart’s character and creation?
It seems almost as if Rinoa’s haters are the same folks that don’t like Marin Kitagawa with the main criticism being realistically impossible existence and fantasy wish fulfillment
They are entirely different personalities, Tifa has a maternal nurturing element, Rinoa has a juvenile idealistic element - which is often interpreted badly but I think was integral to her character and role in the story. She's the opposite to Squall who is introverted and cynical at the start of the story; he perceives the worst of people and can't see the world changing. Rinoa on the other hand sees the best in people and believes the world can be changed for the better, and she's so impulsive she wants to do it as soon as possible and, if necessary, by herself. This is why she takes the Odine bangle to Sorceress Edea, which many fans criticise as stupidity... but it's youthful idealism that she brings to the story, and what gradually makes Squall see the world a different way.
I'm warming to the R=U theory but I don't think it needs to be a tragic continuous circle. I find myself thinking about Zanarkand and Yu Yevon's "dreaming". Dreaming over and over again.
A other good vidoe dude keep it up you rock
Is rinoa Ultimecia? I say "might as well be" in the way she compressed all and time and space and emotion and individual unto herself including Rinoa specially for being a sorceress. If she's not what Rinoa eventually turns into it's what Rinoa is definetly eventually absorbed into.
What I think the game's ending and overall story means:
TL;DR - Rinoa is not Ultimecia. Rinoa needs to die in space. Once she dies, Ultimecia dies with her.
After defeating Ultimecia, Squall and his friends are separated. Squall believes that he can return to them if he calls out to them. However, he realizes that this is no longer possible and succumbs to his greatest fear - being abandoned and alone. When he sees the white feather falling from the sky, he is reminded of the promise he made to Rinoa. Rinoa is his way back; without her, he is lost at the end of time.
Final Fantasy VIII's plot is a time loop/paradox. Recall that Squall gives Edea the idea to build SeeD and Garden when he ended up in the past after defeating Ultimecia. His past self, "young Squall," would later grow up to take part in the events of the game (Squall defeats Edea, Edea transfers her power to Rinoa, Rinoa frees Adel in space, Squall rescues Rinoa and defeats future Ultimecia, Ultimecia transfers her power to Matron, young Squall is raised by Matron and grows up to defeat Edea, etc.).
This loop will continue forever, because young Squall does not have the benefit of knowledge or hindsight as the Squall trapped at the end of the paradox. He cannot go back in time to alter his decisions because he does not belong in that timeline (Matron: "Please return. You do not belong here.")
The bizarre replays of Rinoa walking in the ending: Squall begins to see replays of when he first met Rinoa at the SeeD banquet in Balamb Garden; this is where the loop begins. Once he meets her at the party, the game's events will take place; you see them replay over and over (you see shots of Rinoa at the party being in frame, then wiped away - as if she is absent). Squall comes to realize that he is forever locked in an eternal battle with Ultimecia, and in this loop, Ultimecia can never truly die. Recall that the only way to truly ensure a sorceress is forever vanquished is for the sorceress to die with her powers. Ultimecia is NOT Rinoa, but their deaths are intertwined, and are also consequently what will end up saving the rest of the world.
No matter what kind of action Squall takes in the game in an effort to save Rinoa, it will always end in the same result: replaying the time loop.
With the benefit of hindsight, in order to break this time loop, Squall must let Rinoa die in space alone (her life support runs out and her helmet shatters in the ending). If Squall decides not to save her after the destruction of the Moon Base, Rinoa dies with Ultimecia's powers in the vast emptiness of space, unable to transfer them to anyone, thus ending Ultimecia's existence. Squall can then return to the planet to defeat Seifer and a weakened Adel (who needed Rinoa's sorceress powers in order to become strong again), and the party will never have to experience time compression to rush into the future to defeat Ultimecia because she no longer exists - thus saving the world.
Squall realizes this (if you recall him crying in the finale); in order to fully destroy Ultimecia, he must sacrifice the only person he truly loves - Rinoa. He must live the remainder of his life alone, broken, and grieving - knowing he abandoned Rinoa to die. The rest of the world will move on, celebrating the end of the succession of witches.
The entire game has been about Squall saving Rinoa's life multiple times (fake President Deling, Sorceress Edea at Deling City, from falling off during the Balamb vs Galbadia Garden siege, carrying her to Esthar, from drifting away in space). It's the trope of the knight saving the "Princess" (remember Rinoa's nickname in the Timber Owls?) or in this case "sorceress." In the end, Rinoa rescues Squall. Free of Ultimecia's influence and no longer a sorceress, it's the "Princess" who ends up saving her knight.
So for what it's worth. I think whether you subscribe to the theory or not, I don't really believe Rinoa being Ultimecia really matters in the end. As stated, this is a story about the acceptance of time and impermanence, vs the lamenting of said concepts and an attempt to change them for self preservation. If Ultimecia is Rinao, it could make perfect sense that she would attempt to kill off the remnants and memories that plague her as obstacles to live in a self preserved chamber to herself (IE Squall and her past self). More over the concept of time compression itself is one where shackles in pain from a past present or future no longer exist so it is just a means to an end to no longer be attached to anything that was previously painful. The real tragic irony is that in doing so, you aren't really creating self preservation but rather committing suicide from the prospect of nothing having ground to be in your life. The theory just adds context and dimension to all of this, but it is just as easily understandable for it just to be an attempt for Ultimecia to relinquish all of this based on her persecution as a tortured soul being a sorceress. No matter what idea you subscribe to, it can all wind up the same with love, bonds, living in the present succeeding where fruitless tragic lamentation fails and Squall and Rinoa can live happily ever after in a timeline that was always meant to be.
This is so true, people don’t focus enough on the themes that really matter
Alternate timelines dont seem like too much a stretch for the FF series, especially since FF7 Remake
Good point. Even FF1 had weird time altering stuff going on, and that was in 1987!
Ultimecia has to be Rinoa - far too many coincidences as mentioned in the video and comments (“opposite” (light and dark) characterisation, Griever, sorceress and knight, timelines as a concept etc). But one thing people don’t seem to explore further is that Ultimecia - or future Rinoa - deliberately put this plan into motion and intended to die in order for her and Squall to “live happily ever after” in their timeline. So ultimately Ultimecia isn’t a villain at all, but a tragic hero.
Thanks alot for sharing this theory and your well put thoughts! (you do have another sub) I love to read these fans interpretations. You have stated in your video that at your Zell vid a german commentator left a hint (localisation) I have to look this up. I really wonder why in the german version they call Ultimecia Artemisia. For my, ultimate = the very final, makes more sense. But on the other hand there might be a hint in sorceress hierarchy? (I haven’t looked up who Artemesia is)
If someone has any info on this, I would be delighted to hear.
I have read most of the comments here. Nice to see how friendly and deep fact‘ial everyone here discusses!
I just learned through you guys that there is a localisation error from jp to engl when Ultimecia summons Griever. That, in fact, Griever is Squalls „spirit animal“ and not actually her G.F.
And Ultimecias strange accent at the beginning of the end battle… where she pronounces K instead of C. I am not fond of my mothertongue in games (which is german) but sometimes things getting clearer when one compares different languages. This is why I was triggered about your Zell comment above. So, now I am going to repeat the final fight in german the see how they translated the accent 🙂
FF8 ending theme is the only motif which gets me totally emotional, all over the years. Saw Arnie Roth conducting a FF concert in Berlin, when they played this theme, I was reduced to tears. FFVIII is underrated in terms of story, especially the ending sequence is touching.
Sorry for the delayed reply. Thank you for the comment and glad you enjoyed the episode. It'd be interesting to know if you pick up anything in your replaying of the game in German!
I think you unknowingly explained why they confirmed this theory being wrong in the end. Its precisely because they didnt want the positive message of the game tainted. They couldnt have rinoa turn from good to evil so they cut the idea before release. Thus we feel the lack of ultimecias backstory even though all ff final bosses usually have very long ones. That being said i feel like them denying the theorie makes it so much more likely to have been a thing at one point during development.
The director who denied it recently stated he wasn't prepared for the question and didn't know anything about the theory but once he looked more into it has since decided to retract his statement. He said that he doesn't know what the other two script writers may have intended but it does seem like something they may have tried and and doesn't think he can say for sure if it's not the case.
@@straydogfreedom7795is there a source for this I can look into myself?
Knowing how japanese drama, anime etc works, I'm pretty sure Rinoa wants to compress time becoz she wants to die in the hand of squall, end the sorcerer's line n stop all suffering... ya know, kinda like that Sasuke's brother from Akatsuki thingy...
If we let Rinoa died during adel held her in act 4, the game would be "Game over", there's no ultimecia in the future if rinoa got killed in the present.
Rinoa isn't Ultimecia. Ulti came from the far future, thousands of years after Squall and Rinoa died. Sorceresses have the same lifespan as normal humans
I think the main reason people want the whole 'Rinoa = Ultimecia, Squall = Griever' is because it add a layer to the story that without is just an emo melodrama with some badly writen time travel. Gameplay wise, there is a reason the first thing player search for are patches, difficulty mods and low level run are prevalent. It sell well only because of FF7 sucess and was so bad that it mitigate the sell of FF9 after. It was the worst of the 3d main line era.
Just finished it this week and thought it was excellent. Great story
@Seth Killian I wouldnt say so much that the game alludes to it, so much as people just like theory crafting. I dont think evidence for any of the end game theories are decisive, and I think that's more or less a good thing. After all, this game still has people discussing it 20 years later. I dont think theres a correct interpretation of the ending, and that leaves it enjoyable for all types of players. Some will see the ending, and view it as a happy ending where squall did eventually make it out ok, and they lived happily with their other friends, and everythings ok. Meanwhile, others will discuss this theory, and several other like it, and I think that uncertainty allows us to project our most interesting interpretation of the ending onto it. In my opinion I would have liked the ending to be just SLIGHTLY more concrete, as it feels like the ending material is just kind of thrown at us as it is now.
As for the original comment here, I highly disagree with the sentiment that this game was just an 'emo melodrama with poorly written time travel.' Firstly, I dont think the time travel in this game is really all that prevalent until you start diving into deeper understanding of the ending. On it's own, the time compression plotline is actually pretty simple. Secondly, theres a lot more to squall than just 'emo', and his character arc is mostly pretty interesting
With that being said however, as much as I love this game, I have to admit it's very sloppy in a lot of places. It has a certain charm that is unmatched by any of the other games, and I think it's one of the main thing that keeps its followers, but there are a number of poorly written aspects, especially in the mid game. Personally, most of that stems from them blatantly shoving other characters (especially rinoas) character development away in favor of trying to emphasize squalls character development. (In all honesty rinoas character seemed to get worse over the course of the game because between this, and the time she spends unconscious, her character arc gets severely messed up.) The other problem with this, besides the way it sabotaged other characters development, is that it actually made squall feel weaker. At times it felt like they were trying too hard to make it obvious that squall had changed. In reality, his mannerisms, as well as a few cutscenes made this quite clear. Rinoas lines at trabia garden when they are discussing their lives in the orphanage were leading into a character moment but got overshadowed, rinoas lines upon first boarding the ragnarok were unrealistic to her character, instead acting as just a means to further squall. Every single scene with rinoa after she awakes disregards her character in favor of squalls, and it leaves her character feeling sadly undeveloped, which is sad because she was done SO WELL up until the end of disk one. (I actually really love her character, I just like to acknowledge wasted potential.). The game also suffers from a lack of direction at time, where you're just sorta sent roaming somewhere (usually the garden) until you find whatever progresses the story. In certain situations this promotes exploration, but in some situations, such as the conflict between galbadia and balamb gardens, it left otherwise interesting scenes feeling lost, gameplay wise. Finally, and more bitpickily, the junctionings get messed up a lot when jumping to Lagunas party, and between discs. Also, I had to waste so much cure magic whenever I exchange junctions because of the 3000 health increase caused by doing so. Again, I love this game, it has arguably the most heart in all of final fantasy, but the execution is quite sloppy at times. I would love to see a day where square starts remaking some of the other games after the success of ffviir, and because I would love to see them fix these issues, and polish the game a bit more in some of these areas. *I'm not expecting them to remake this game at any point, but I can hope.
I've never played FF7 (both OG and Remade) but I must confess that when I get to see some vids of it, I find it so uninteresting. I can't believe ppl actually criticise FF VIII saying "it's full of pixels" when in FF VII, all the characters look like they're from a cartoon / out of Disney world XD ! I know that FF VII was the very 1st FF video game to be imported to the US and to Europe but still...
@@hazeldaniels1679 Half of Rinoa's dialogue is her saying things Ultimecia would say. The game definitely alludes to it. She even says that she wants to stop time, that she wants to meet at the exact place that Ultimecia's castle is built and that Squall might have to kill her one day.
The makers of the game confirmed Ultimecia is not Rinoa. Theory debunked
Squall never died, for fucks sake the creator stated that he never died a thousand times to the point that it has become annoying...
Rinoa the strong and independent women who needs no one.... until she fucks up her delusions and must carried ...
if squall and rinoa gets married, it must be awkward for laguna, his partner, julia and her husband, during family gathering.. or will raine and julia's husband just laugh it out?
Well, it will be a dad gathering only, as both their mums are dead afaik