Photographers who say they 'make' photos...
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Last time I visited this location I got talking to another photographer about landscape photography and one specific debate. Do we take photos, or do we make them? In this video from Snowdonia here in Wales I share my thoughts...
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Ah so close, i was just one name away. 😂
Cheers James!
Just checking James, did you send me a WhatsApp link ??
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_“You don’t take a photograph, you make it”_ was a famous quote by Ansel Adams. It was to do with the importance he placed on the practice of visualisation. I’m not sure he went around correcting people, though.
Well said Jamie and hope you’re doing well. If I could also add a bit.
Editing was a big part of making the photo, as well. Moonlight Hernandez would never be remembered if it weren’t for the work in the darkroom.
He was the first photoshopper, so he did indeed make images.
So right! 👍
His work in the darkroom was pretty amazing. I think that's what he means by made.
Yes, is the importance of artistic vision that separates the art of photography from just recording the reality like a machine. Is what pictorialists worked for in the early days of photography.
I love to be extra unpretentious and call them "pictures," especially around other photographers. "Oh, you take such lovely pictures." I call my own pictures, "pictures." If I ever opened a photo gallery, I'd call it "Pictures." This one is really golden: instead of calling them a photographer, you call them a "picture taker." I absolutely love the rage over superficial stuff like that. A rose by any other name.
You know, I'd be cracking up if I heard that in that context. I love it! 😂
It is all just a bit semantic, but I think it is a way to differentiate aim or purpose. I think “taking” implies a desire to preserve moments, to capture a certain mood or feeling. While “making” implies more of a desire for storytelling, for crafting a certain mood or feeling.
This is absolutely right.
Very much agreed to this
It can also be that they arn‘t native english speakers. Tor us in the german language no one would say take a photo. That would just be wrong. In german it is the expression to make a photo or to shoot a photo. So if you speak with a non native Englisch speaker it might just come from their native language.
It's easier in slavic languages, where it's either "Do do a photo", or just "To photo(graph)"
Thank you. Someone who uses a bit of critical thinking here.
The phrasing of “making” a photograph has always kind of bugged me too. Viewing it as making instead of taking completely defeats the purpose of what I love about photography and has a ring of arrogance to it. The joy in photography for me by definition is capturing something that I didn’t make. If I took a picture of a forest, and showed it to someone, my goal would be to show them the the beauty of the forest, not the beauty of my technique. I’m not the one that made that forest. I captured what I saw and felt. Capturing doesn’t take any more or less artistry than creating, it’s just different. I think of it this way: if I took leaf from said forest, would I show it to someone and say “look what I made”?
Having said that, I think this is a great conversation to have but totally agree that it’s not something worth correcting each other or insisting about.
The counter point to that is you found a way to “make” a photograph that communicates the beauty of what nature has created. You don’t spend thousands of dollars, thousands of hours of practice and training to just take a photo of a location. Nature didn’t make the photograph, you did. I sort of see “making a photo” more of a mindset I try work towards when out with my camera, it sort of says to be intentional.
The problem I have with “taking” is it somewhat removes the work that you actually have taken to get to the point that you made the photo. When I take a quick photo of the family on my phone I consider it taking a photo as there isn’t really much thought behind the image and is more about taking a memory. When I go out with my camera on the other hand there’s far more intent.
I think it’s a fair distinction and presents the different passions, interests and focuses different photographs. Some photographers are more interested in just “taking” a photo the location and others are more focused on “making” a photo that communicates a feeling, story or creating a pleasing composition out of what nature has created.
You probably have average pictures then because when you're looking for perfection you need to "make a photo" instead of taking a photo .
My photos are impossible to take spontaneously because I shoot in the dark using light painting .
Choosing location, setting up lights , playing with composition and perspective , color contrast , all those things can't be random .
To me making a photo means controlling what is usually out of your control !
I get that it sounds a bit arrogant. And I do feel that there are an infinite number of great opportunities and viewpoints occurring all over the world to take advantage of. I would still call it making a photograph, since the word means light painting or drawing and you make one after the other.
Maybe taking the opportunity to make a photograph would be the best way?
James: Life is too short to make that distinction
Also james: * proceeds to make a 15 min video making the distinction *
Anything for content 😁
🤣
Interesting topic. My view is...
"Taking" a picture is little more than pressing a camera shutter button.
"Making" a picture is all the finding, choosing, composing, lighting, exposing, post-processing and presenting (etc).
I agree - life is too short to indulge in semantics like take v make. We're also discouraged from using 'shoot' and 'capture' - for me the whole debate is just a basket of fog. Nice video.
i capture a moment in time. For me this covers all the prepping, planning, scouting, travel, setup, models, etc... that goes into the capturing that moment in time.
All the decisions that were made such as composition, waiting for certain light or standing on rocks for a more compelling perspective, is exactly what people mean by making.
I agree. To me these are the things that make the difference between taking a quick snapshot and spending time, well, making my photo.
You’re right about that. No problems with taking photos. Love your images! Thank you!
I see it like "making" a photo comes back to the days when we actually developed the film and photos home in a dark space yes I'm "old" and today for me personally making a photo is when you work on it in an editing program .
What a place for taking photos. The reflektions make such an unreal atmosphere. Almost like in a dream with an endless mirror on the ground...
"Anyway, enough of this nonsense; time to head back down and shoot some reflections."
-Me waking up in the morning and heading downstairs to be frustrated with the mirror.
Nice point to think about. I don't particularly care about this distinction of words but to me the distinction between "take" or "make" feels different: "taking" a photo tends more towards just taking a snapshot. "Making" a photo stresses more that you put in an effort, thus being intentional about what you do, thinking about it, paying attention to your composition etc.
That said, that is just my association after watching your video because I've never myself said it that way neither in English nor in Dutch. 😁
See, for example, the Ilford Manual of Photography, 5th edition (May 1958) which writes in terms of _making_ photographs. Indeed, this meaning goes beyond matters of composition (chapter 20 'The Technique of Picture Making') it has detailed instruction for how to make materials for development and processing, modifying negatives, making prints, toning, trimming, mounting, and framing. This kind of photography is as much a craft as drawing or painting a picture, so 'making' is the right word to use.
Hey James, just an idea to throw at you for a fun and different video, how about doing photos at Mach Loop with your telephoto lens? Something to think about :D
Good points here James. As a photographer, I like to think of myself as the middle man between the scene and the people: My role is to present what is a beautiful scene to the people who want to see it. Any (small) changes I make is where my creativity gets to show.
Well filmed as usual mate 👌🏼
That sounds beautiful. I film journalistic videos. I think, the greatest task is to present people, scenes and places as thruthfully as possible without all the distractions. Kind of a similar thought :)
I agree with you 100% James. In my mind, a photographer's job is to capture emotion, and impart that emotion to the viewer. You can't make emotion, you can only feel it and attempt to capture it, and the good photographer can do it in such a way that the emotion of the moment is felt by the viewer, whether wedding photos or landscape. The trick is 'seeing the photograph' in front of you. Lots of people look, but it takes focus to actually see.
I love your combination of thoughtful reflection with "and I just can't be bothered to take it that seriously" 😊 It's part of what has made your channel one of my favorites as I've started my own photography journey. I can't wait to see what comes out of your Antarctica adventure as I am going myself in March.
I want to live where you live. It's so beautiful and peaceful. Your photos at the lake were otherworldly!
And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. 🎶
I think both attitudes are equally valid and interesting. There is, of course, many options for photographers other than landscape (as magnificent as that is). Many photographers work in studios, in which case we walk into a large room, typically with grey walls, black ceilings, and dark floors, which gives us incredible control over our lighting and clinical depression. I think "making" a photo applies here as there is no subject, scene, or light until you create it.
But I think it still applies to any type of photography, including scenic, and I would make the argument that is it definitely worth spending your precious time thinking about it. One thing I learned long ago in the commercial world is that many clients hire photographers because of their opinions - it's pretty much on par with the quality and relevance of the work in their portfolios. As a matter of fact, you very eloquently spoke your opinion in this video. Our opinions typically drive our processes and usually help define our individual style as a photographer.
So good on you - go out there and be opinionated! It doesn't mean you have to be a stubborn bastard about it. I would far rather chat with a photographer whose opinions differ from mine, as I will likely get a lot more out of a conversation like that than with someone who shares my opinions.
By the way - this was a really worthwhile video and your work is just superb. Now I'm going to sit down with pen and paper and start planning the next photo I'm going to make. ;)
I think both can apply depending on the subject matter, landscape already exists and it’s down to us to record what is so we “take” the shot. If we manipulate the content by placement of a subject etc then “make” could be more appropriate?? Good talking point 👍🏻
I agree, I'd say I take wildlife pictures but when I'm doing studio work I build the images using lights and thinking and planning the shot before hand.
'Bamps' was my childhood name for my grandfather!
But the manipulation is not real. It is an illusion. The scene is there for the taking. My thoughts anyway.
I think the word capture is better than either take or make. After all capture alludes to the fact that really top level photography is an act of hunting for the best composition, perfect lighting and the exact perfect moment to press the shutter.
Really interesting to see how you consider the options for a shot. This sort of advice on composition is so valuable to less experienced photographers like me. Thank you!
Well, you know what. What hits me immediately when you say that you got your best shot after you turned off the camera, is that that’s exactly why you got your best shot. Your filming gear, talking and focus on your audience is actually a distraction, and once you turn off your camera, your focus is a 100%. Your able to take in more of the surroundings, mood, and not at least the ten second window of ripples that might’ve passed in a “stupid” comment, as you would put it 😅
Well done, though and thanks for sharing
been a photographer for 40 years and never heard anyone mention making versus taking. Good on you for inventing a new distinction that's never existed for those who shoot professionally. Cheers.
Love your videos. They are so casual and relaxing very often with great humor. Keep up.
Agree, the terminology is not worth arguing about. Some gorgeous shots you took, a reminder that the sky does not have to be moody.
Thank you, James. Beautiful photos (whether “taken” or “made”!).
What a beautiful spot! Love the way you walk around analyzing it from different angles. You’re a great teacher!
As both a painter and a photographer I can totally understand your viewpoint.
At the end of the day photography is photography regardless of the words or gear photographers use.
I typically hear the 'making' argument among film photographers, (which is the form of photography I happen to practice myself), and I think a lot of film photographers forget that developing a photograph in a darkroom is pretty much the same as editing a photograph in lightroom.
Both methods of editing a photograph achieve the same result, a 'finished work', the only difference is that one is developing a photograph with chemicals and the other with a computer program...
Where I think I disagree slightly is when we take alternative and historic photographic processes into account as often these processes are extremely similar to painting and require a trendmendous amount of artistic skill and practical experience to pull off.
Speaking for myself, when I'm not painting I like to make bromoil prints from my 4x5 and 8x10 negatives.
Making a bromoil print is an incredibly complicated and time consuming process that often takes hours and requires not only my skills as a painter but my skills as a photographer and darkroom printer as well.
At the end of the day I really feel as though I've made a work of art when I've made a good bromoil print.
Anyway's, that's my two cents, I guess I just wanted to point out that there are some extremely artistic processes we can practice as photographers in which we truly do 'make'.
Great video by the way, can't wait for more!
Great tips and amazing reflection shots. Enjoy your new extension and can't wait to see the photos you will "create" with that!
I do make a difference, quite automatically, between "make/create" and "take". Knowing that my mother tongue is French and that "to make" and "to take" in the photography field are both commonly translated to "faire une photo" (make a picture). I do use the words "shoot" and "créer" (create) depending if I'm just the viewer or if I'm using tools like lights or smokes, etc. If I'm just going to that place I know, with those (or hoped) weather conditions, I'm definitely just taking that picture. Thanks for your videos and that introspection,
Cédric
Ansell Adams "made" photos. He did not "take" photos (his own words). Probably he was referring to his comprehensive dark-room process... ;-)
Taking: in a studio, ot at least with a set up such as lights and more to do with makeup, styling, directing. Taking: being humble and in the moment, documenting.
Ive been a professional photographer since 1990. I have definitely set up photos, but still pretty sure I just took the photos!
I’m not really insecure about my photography anymore. I think of what I’m doing as making pictures and here is why. The end results is what matters and the photography is only one part of it. The other parts of it is traveling/hiking to the location and the editing. Those two are just as important as the photography itself. You won’t get your final image without those two things. This is why “making pictures” makes more sense to say in my opinion. It does not make sense to ignore the other things, the other hard work, that goes into making a picture.
All that said, I might refer to myself as a photographer when in a conversation, just to not derail the conversation. You know? But ultimately I think of what I’m doing as making pictures/photos.
As a pro photographer for over 40 years, I think I've probably claimed to 'photograph things'. Whether that's described as taking/making/creating images is an individual's choice, and I've never cared much about how people refer to what I do. Great video as usual 👌
Namibia? Welcome to Africa. Take with you cards and batteries in a quantity slightly more than you think you need. There's so much wildlife, physical features and culture to make or take nice photographs of. Bon voyage.
Love those mirror images of mountains in water so cool. Miss the 🐑
Great video again! Thnx James.
I started using make instead of take because some friends of color told me that asking if I could take photos of them had a connotation of appropriation. No ego behind it, just a desire to be mindful of how my language makes my subjects feel
It’s great to see you so excited. You had great day.
Fantastic lake reflection photos James! I have been eyeing a 70-200 mm lens (waiting for it to go back on sale) and a 2x teleconverter. So your quick little demo was perfect timing! Now....for a sale to come along! Any rate, great video and photos as always!
I think specifying whether you “take” or “make” a photo only make a difference to a small percentage of people. For those who think that capturing a photo is just pressing a button (which sometimes it is) they will not care which word you use to describe the process and if you say “make” a photo to that type of individual they’ll probably assume you’re trying too hard to legitimize yourself and your process. I’m trying to choose my words carefully with this next bit….the one thing I can think of is for product photography you are adding all the elements and shaping the light to achieve an almost predetermined and visualized outcome so that could be “making” a photo BUT that being said you also choose the elements in landscape and portrait photography with foreground, mid ground, main subject and background but mostly using what’s available. I don’t know if this makes sense but at the end of the day if you really want to emphasize “take” or “make” for your photos then you do you! This is taking forever to write with my little2 year old causing chaos and wife sleeping for night shift 😂
Great video James. Loved those lake shots! I tend to say capture an image when out doing my photography. I know others who say take a picture which in its own right its true but I got capture inprinted in my brain. I made the mistake of wearing my normal walking boots on my last vlog and that was a mistake to say the least as I was walking through wetland at Elan Valley. Not the best idea so next time I'll ensure I got my waterproof boots on.
Wales is always looking incredible. Thanks for the views. Just breathtaking 😍
Simply stunning location James. Even at the top the views were really beautiful.
Your right, chuck in some good clouds and OMG image of the year.
Stay safe 🇦🇺
Excellent video, James. You could even say that "taking" a photo is a part of the process of "making" an image, but honestly I agree with you that getting hung up on words isn't productive. Regarding your knee, be proactive with it now so you don't need to be hobbled with it later. Some careful strength training will make it more resistant to injuries.
I don´t know how can I enjoy this channel this much, but I do. Thank you, sir, you are a master of your craft.
I am from Poland, English I had to learn and it always puzzled me why in English it says to take a photo. In Polish we can only say: take a foto, or "photographing". And now for the first time I hear that I can also say: make. That's cool, I won't be so worried if I make a mistake.
I know the video was a little bit about something else, but I just in passing.... But the video, as usual, cool :)
Amazing scenes - great video. I used to live at Bryn Rhug just down Cader Road from there so this was a favourite spot of mine. The fox’s path up Cader/Cadair Idris opposite the Gwernan Lake is a fine climb.
My favourite Lee Mack impersonating photographer. Good stuff, thank you.
Never thought about before. Well explained and I agree with you.
Wonderful video....Keith
You get great lavender on that hill, noticed when I parked there to save a couple of quid when doing a 1.5hrs walk in to Cader Idris..
Man, I love your videos! I use you to get inspired to go out and shoot!
Nice discussion about making and taking photos and it is nice to see other comments here!
I agree with you about take or make photos. We're actually capturing or "taking" light in a split second. We choose or "make" the composition and finesse it later via editing.
Hi James, just because we can all press a shutter button doesn't make us all photographers, as I amply demonstrate more often than not ... but it is all too easy to trivialise the effort required to be in the right place at the right time with the right settings in order to press that button and capture those particular light rays .. therein lies the skill. Candidly I rely on luck most of the time, but with your help I get more and more lucky ;-)
Love that opening shot, gorgeous
Awesome video and those last 2 are my favorites
I think it is great you finally discover the world of telephoto lenses for landscapes 😁
They definately come with their own challenges, but can offer great compression.
Personally I think of my Sigma 100-400mm on the a7rii as a really nice piece of kit. It fits great with the 24-105 and the 12-24 from Sony because they cover every focal length you could want to have for landscapes, whilst fitting in a messenger bag 😉
Gorgeous spot! And fabulous images!
Lovely work. And boy, what a location.
Great review
I just bought myself the Sigma 150-600mm lens, I have a lot of motorsport this year, salt lake speedweek being the first, and I like to take wildlife. Been out playing, its amazing having that extra reach. What an awesome place, so many stunning places in the UK. I so love your understated style, amazing photos. Look forward to seeing footage from your workshops.
Interesting observation relating to that wall bisecting the shot. That would not have occurred to me to move location such that the wall and reflection point to the building.
I personally think the "taking" of a photograph describes one part of a process. Many people do "take" photographs with no regard for any other aspects of the process such as composition for example. The selection of a particular lens, the use of certain filters, the careful observation of climatic conditions, the choice of medium, are all components in the process, with the "taking" being the instant that the shutter is released. Then there is the post production work to consider, and printing technique adopted and paper type etc. For many people these components are not important, but for some they are essential to the "making" of a photographic picture. A sum of all the components in the process.
I certainly don't care what terminology people use to describe their activity and most definitely wouldn't pull them up on it... but it quite definitely isn't a sign of my insecurity that I choose to "make" photographs
Cheers James excellent as always
You demonstrated the real answer to your initial question of “make” versus “take” through the course of the video, with or without narration, by moving around and using both pre-visualization and experimentation coupled with your personal aesthetic in coming up with what you thought would be the best compositions of shapes, light, colors, and textures in that location on that particular morning. As others have mentioned, in context of their primary languages, “make” vs “take” may have more to do with the happenstance of having both words in English rather than any underlying logical difference. Think of the fact that indigenous peoples have literally hundreds of words for snow, ice, and types of snow and ice conditions. Any of the rest of us would freeze to death listening to two residents debate the proper term for the snow underfoot on any given day; a debate we would be incapable of having in our languages. The b-camera shot at 11:20 of you in the foreground and the perfect arrowhead reflection in the background was, not accidentally, one of the best compositions. The art was in the thinking and experimentation, uncoupled with any debate over “make” versus “take.” Danner does make great boots, don’t they? (Or is it Danner do make great boots…..?)
I don’t think of using make as a level of arrogance or insecurity, but as an acknowledgment of the violence in words around photography (take, shoot, shot, capture, etc.). Word choice makes a difference.
Great video you *made* there - as ever. (And with crop mode it's about 26MP, apparently.)
If a photo moves you, or 'speaks' to your soul, does it make any difference if it was 'made' or 'taken'? We just found your channel, James, and like it very much! In one episode, you touch upon the philosophic take-or-make controversy, talk about a piece of gear, and offer a useful example of factors to consider when composing a photo! Brilliant, not to mention you and I have the same taste in hiking boots! I've had the same Danners for about 8 years, and you are right, they break in quite easily! So glad we found you!;-)
It becomes a lot more interesting when you consider long exposure. Did you make or take? It can look incredibly different with a long exposure, and it's not natural to see time flattened into one image, so make might be more appropriate than take
A photo isn't finished until the post work is completed. Next time you're in the middle of Lightroom, ask yourself if you took the photo or are you in the (post)process of making it.
I think its a bit of a thin line, to me you take a photo, if you post process it then all you are doing is enhancing what you already have captured and are not making anything new.
Now, if you have multiple pictures and say add the moon from one to another, change the sky from day to night etc, then you are creating something that wasn't in your original, this is what I would class as making.
Had to pause your vlog halfway through to go and take a cup of tea 😉. Re cycling, I challenge you to ride up one of the two steep roads from Arthog, perhaps wait until your knee is better!
You forgot to mention that (one of) the most important things in "making" a photograph is post processing.
The argument here is that you already have all the information from taking your picture, hence not making anything new, plus not all photo's require post processing and if you throw film into the equasion, that really demonstrates take over make.
"... it now feels quite January..." (watching in sunny Arizona and laughed at this)
Capture the moment. Making a photo is done in the dark room, on the computer or whatever new medium that comes along. Lenses? Had a Canon. On it a managed to get a 35 to 350mm and a matched 2x tele converter. I loved it. May go out and get it again but a new (used) camera will have to be purchased as well. Now, there is a newer 28 to 350 zoom. That’s too expensive. Those are made for press/photojournalist folks. I’m neither. Nice photos.
Hey James - Thanks for the content! Did you end up keeping the 2x TC, and did you feel that the level of image quality was good enough?
point makes total sense, as always!
Not that it matters, however...I'd like to think that Photographers "take" pictures. Then some go home and manipulate the photo they have taken and they create something...this, "making" a photo.
As you had said though...it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things!
Great work and keep it up!!
Very interesting. I was thinking about the take vs make debate recently. I’m an enthusiast who has been learning photography for about 5 years. I’ve always said that I take pictures. But I’ve learned over the years that I make a lot of decisions when I photograph something deliberately. Both when composing and taking the photo and in post production. I’ve learned more and more that I can consider post when taking my photo, so the end product is (deliberately) not what was recorded by my camera. These decisions make me think that any of my photos are “made” more than “taken”. I totally get the distinction…but will probably never be able to change the language that I’ve been using my entitle life. And almost nobody I talk to in real life will notice or care. I just hope they’ll enjoy the images that I share with them whether I took them or made them ;)
10:57 man, that scene is trippy lol.
Yeah!your mic’s good in this vid. Love how you talk brother
What a place, scene, conditions!
My wife and I or going to Namibia too in October. Traveling through Namibia, Sosusvlei, Swakupmund, Damaraland, Etosha etc. Who knows, we might bump into eachother. Hope we are able to come home with awesome shots of wildlife and landscapes. Wish you lots of fun, and hopefully, a safe Covid free trip. Love watching your videos. Looking forward to see what you have done in Nimabia.
Can't belive you've not checked out the mach loop on North Wales. It's where loads of jets fly low in the valleys
You made some nice snaps there
I found the spot where you were taking photos from on Google maps looking down on Barmouth, then got distracted by looking at the local Historical landmarks, like Cors y Gedol Neolithic site and the Tomen Y Mur Roman Fort. You live in an area with so much beauty and Ancient History. I am amazed by all the old stone buildings in Barmouth and how they keep them heated in the Winter.
Looks like a great location to revisit through the seasons. 👍 🚴🏾♂🥂
I personally use the term make for video not for the perception of "we do a lot of work", but rather, we create something when it's needed. We don't have to wait for the conditions to be correct, we can make a great result, usually through lighting. Work goes in directly effecting the image, like paint on a canvas, except light on a scene. I find clients kinda dig that terminology because it gaurentees results.
Good points, but I do think of myself as an artist who "makes" a photograph. As I've grown into this craft, I've become much more intentional with what I shoot and why I shoot it. Many times there's planning, consideration to time of day, weather, and other factors involved. Previsualization also plays a big role in how I work now. I often have a good idea of what I'd like the final image to look like. "Taking the picture" is just one part of that... editing choices make a big difference as well.
Furthermore, if I'm shooting several panels at a long focal length with the intention of stitching to produce a much wider FOV and highly detailed image... that's certainly "making" a photo in my mind.
That said, to each his own! I definitely don't correct people lol.
Make...take...who cares!..Really..why? Maybe the new word should be made...lol. Another great video there James. Very enjoyable watch.
I never think about whether I'm making or taking a photo, I always look on it as selection process.
as a linguist, I think it has to do with romance languages vs old german. in spain spanish, we say “make” although the more accurate translation would be “do”. in latin america spanish, which is heavily influenced by english, they say “take”. plus, spanish speakers learning english often mix these words, and viceversa. imo it’s not as deep, this debate seems like over correcting.
Interesting, I'm not sure if I'm too bothered about what phrasing people use (although I think I naturally say that I take photos) as there are more important things to worry about. In the end I'm too focused on my scouting or images to care ha! Beautiful place to spend the day!