I sent the spool out for replacement, and will do some further testing once I get it. I have a feeling if I run a far steeper of a drag angle it may make a difference, probably not much. I will run it uphill in the future as well, which it runs uphill far better than short circuit mig. Edit: I did do a bend test away from the face on a scrap test fillet weld. It actually held, and did no break. So the weld does have great tensile strength and good ductility, but the lack of root fusion means it has less strength than it should on a single pass. There will be more tests in the future 😀😀
Rad dude, I sent you a couple more emails with some thoughts. And that 7014 cut and etch was rad as well. Its hard to explain but I feel like with 75/25 the arc wants to dance up on the leading edge and not on the leading edge . Thats why I feel you need an aggressive gun angle. To almost keep the slag pushed back kinda like how folks do with .072 and up FCAW-S AWS D1.8 wires. I am going to have to make some time and bust out my .035 FCAW-G and see if I can get root fusion like I did with the .045 .
greg uhm my old tombstone lincoln was my grandpa its a heirloom really the fan is like loose i d like to know how to like maintnec one or just kinda tighten it up
Greg, I discovered your channel while searching for solutions to poor penetration with 0.035 dual shield. I’ve watched a bunch of your vids since and think you’re doing an awesome job-thank you for sharing your knowledge, great channel! Based on everything I had read, I was thinking exactly like you, that dual shield would be the ticket to getting my 200a mig machine to punch above its weight. I ran a few cut and etch tests on clean 3/16” material (lap joints) running 375-400 ipm and ~23-24V (~30 CFH C25, 3/4-1” stick out) and got nearly identical results to yours-nice looking welds but very shallow penetration on the legs and what looked like a complete lack of root fusion. Being an ~intermediate level hobbyist I figured surely I’m just doing something wrong but didn’t have time to keep testing and planned to circle back and sort it out later. But having watched your thorough analysis I’m thinking there isn’t much left to sort out-other than practicing my stick welding for heavier material 😂-and maybe seeing if I can repurpose this 11 lb spool of wire as a boat anchor 😔. Thanks again! -Mike
Welcome and thanks for the kind words 😀. You are in the same boat as me, 11lbs of the wire with minimal uses. I will say it will weld thinner materials well, and it welds uphill great. For simple non liability work it will be fine. But obviously the results leave a lot to be desired. The fact you ran even higher feed speed than me and still had the same issues as I did on thinner material really says there is a problem with the product. If it actually worked even half as good as short arc MiG on root fusion it would be a awesome product. I know .045 and bigger wire will work great on thicker metal, that .035 is a definite no go lol.
Hey Greg, Id be really interested in seeing the results of some of the other brands like Hobart excel 71, lincoln 71m, or Rocklmount. Thanks for videos! And I've always heard that dualshield burns in real good so very surprised with the results.
I definitely will be testing another brand just to see. I am a fan of lincoln so I will probably pickup their wire. Something just seems off with the testing to the point it's like I am missing something completely lol. I will also try a steeper drag angle with a non Mig nozzle. The contact tip is help in with the nozzle so I cant use a huge drag angle and keep the proper stickout. Stay tuned for me to revisit the testing, I want some answers lol.
Another great video Greg! I’m baffled that it performed so poorly. I heard you state that you read online that other brands .035 had the same issues, and it’s actually a head scratcher. I can’t believe that companies would produce something so piss poor. I’d be half tempted to run another brand just to confirm.
I will be running another brand to confirm, and I will be using a friends 250amp miller to see what happens as well lol. At this point I am really thinking it's just a issue with the particular wire size, but I will surely figure out for sure soon.
I have 30+ videos that are shot already. The ones of particular interest is testing wires/rods welds to failure. I had some surprising results during those. 😀
hi Greg, Paul down here in Florida..... .I am wondering if a different drag technique might help with the lack of fusion at the root.... a pull forward 1/8" and then back into the puddle, pull forward and back into the puddle...... I was always using flux core with gas with bigger machines and never did any root break tests. something to try..... as far as the spool condition, looks like someone let the wire get loose and then tried rewinding.... did the new spool and packaging look as if someone had been it previously...... looking forward to finding out how well BlueDeamon handles the situation..... Best Wishes.....Paul
The spool had a paper wrap on it but that could have been removed and put back on without a issue. It could have been returned, due to amazon's policies its entirely possible. I am going to try what you mentioned and add some manipulation just to see what happens. I am also going to run a real steep drag angle to see what happens as well. With straight flux core I can see the wire chew into the plate (like a 6010 does) but with this dual shield its nowhere near that agressive. It seems to me like a 7018 just run twice as fast for travel speed lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg good luck, looking forward to seeing what you come up. with, I was really surprised with the 26 volt result.....but due to the lower amount of wire feed, there were less amps......great that you metered all the tests......now I am going to have to fire up my Lincoln and the 71T wire I picked up last year........cheers....Paul
Cool beans. It begs the question, what is the correct application of this product? Clearly thick plate isn't its purpose based on your testing, so it makes me wonder why manufacturers made it... You would think there was some situation that made it the proper fit. Interesting all the same. I'm also interested in hearing how Blue Demon responds to the issues you found in their wire/spool. While I haven't run any Blue Demon products, you do hear/see good things about them on-line. Anywho, great vid as usual and thanks for sharing!!
So I can be long winded but I am going to try to make this shorter 😅. There are several reasons why FCAW -G ( ESAB’S trade name dual shield) was made for. Dual shield was made in the 50’s, I am pretty sure for the shipping industry. Dual shield was made for welding out of position as it is a faster freezing puddle with a modified spray transfer. It welds very easy and goes in like butter with a wide range of settings. When you run this wire vertical up and overhead. The weld will punch right into the root of the joint and not fall out as easy. What you see in this video is one of the down sides of the wire . Due to the properties of the wire , the puddle stays molten in a 2F and has a hard time punching into the root. It can be done, I have done it. But it takes some different techniques to do it. You could run 100 % co2 and get better penetration. Again it’s difficult to get that full root penetration with 75/25. I think you need a more aggressive drag angle, smaller weld size focusing staying on the leading edge of the puddle. Its hard to say how I see it . But its like the 75/25 arc is dancing on the puddle and slag can roll forward a bit . That contributes to the lack of root fusion. Other than that. You get a bunch of benefits. In no order, 1. Its easy to train folks on. 2. You get more bang for your buck with efficiency of the wire. 3. It welds super smooth consistently. 4. Its great out of position. 5. Its fast, you can get so much work done with it because of the mig process. 6. Just to put a cap on it. It makes it so that you can have say like an older welder. Something with out all the bells and whistles like a pulse spray. Something like a miller 252. You can now weld out of position like a pulse spray welding machine , for way less money . And get the a lot of the penetration and deposition rates. Also the mechanical properties are fantastic. It did not show in this video . But when you do bends, pulls , and charpy V notch test. Its fantastic dude. Here is an article showing some cut and etchs. So you can see what the welds look like out of position welding. weldinganswers.com/fcaw-prequalified-welding-procedures-and-their-limitations/
Blue demon makes a ton of rebranded products and has done well for me in the past. I think this wire suffers from the same issue that the others will in .035, poor performance in the flat position. I wouldn’t trust the .035 dual shield on over 1/4in plate, which pretty much sucks. The one benefit it does have is running vertical up it would be far easier than short arc MiG and stick. Beyond that I don’t see much benefit especially because it costs more than other options. What scares me the most is that the welds look really good and solid, yet perform poorer than short arc MiG lol.
@@blueweld75 Wow! Great info. and article to read. It was amazing to see how much root fusion was achieved out of position as opposed to what Greg was getting in the flat/horizontal position. More great stuff from this channel and it's subscribers!!
Excellent info, and thanks for sharing with everyone. No doubt it's fast, and welds vertical up easier than short arc. I like the way it runs, and the welds it produces, minus the lack of root fusion lol. I didn't show it in the video (I will in a upcoming shootout video) but I bent a fillet weld with the dual shield wire away from the face, and it didn't break. It definitely has good strength and ductility. It seems to be far less brittle than gasless flux core based on hand bending things. I just wish I got better results without needing to go to a bigger wire welder 😀
Appreciate the video. I’ve heard differently about dual shield. Would love to see another brand (esab, Lincoln) tested to put this dispute to rest indefinitely.
You’re in luck, I will be testing some more wires shortly. Dual shield has excellent performance in general. What you saw in the video I think is more of an issue with .035 dual shield. I have ran .045 dual shield in school a long time ago and had no results like in the video. Now that I have a 250a capable mig machine I will push the .035 harder and I will test .045 to see the differences it provides. The .035 dual shield to me is a very limited use product. It requires high enough voltage that many home hobby level welders simply won’t run it properly. 100% C02 may give better results but that requires even more voltage. In all the testing I did I could not achieve any real penetration on 1/4inch and above, even on flat plate. The cost is higher than hardwire mig per inch of weld too. From a general use wire based on what I saw I don’t think it’s a real option for most people over hardwire MiG. In the further testing I will use 100% c02 and higher settings to see what happens. I know the .045 wire will perform, the question is if the .035 will.
Interesting set of tests and I agree, this doesn't seem like a useful product. I have a 180A/23V MIG, so I wouldn't be able to come close to using this. But if I had to weld thick plate (and for whatever reason wanted to MIG, didn't want to use stick) would the way to go simply be to chamfer the edges and do a multipass? Is that worth testing?
At 180 amps there is no hope for sure, I metered my machine at numbers over than for numerous of the runs. I will honestly say I am pretty disappointed how it looks like it’s just not going to perform with sub 200 amp machine. As to your question, I have a video coming out in the next week where I test welding with a bevel to see how effective it is. I also have a video testing preheating plates and how well it helps. Based on my experience I believe a 180amp wire welder with .035 flux core wire (or gas shielded mig) to be capable of welding 1/4, above that a solid preheat and a slight bevel will help.
This is a very interesting series. I wonder what it would do if you reverse the polarity. Maybe if the next spool doesn’t act right you can try that. This also has me wondering how different all the other brands of wire perform as far as penetration. May be a project farm stall video in the future for different brands of wire hint hint.
I did try off camera to run DCEN with the wire, and needless to say it didnt work properly at all lol. I thought there would be a fight chance since gasless flux core runs DCEN but there isnt any hope of running that dual shield wire in that polarity. I will be testing a replacement spool and a second spool from another company as well.
Based only on your test i have started testing mine and im not impressed either. I'm using a weldcote brand 035. Even bought rollers for it. I looked up the guidelines and it goes to 28v max. I tried 26v and 465ipm tonight on 3/8" It was spray mode. i then flipped and used my other welder to run a bead on pulse mig with millers settings with 035 solid. The pulse had better fusion. I also noticed with the dual shield i get that little pinhole on the inside root? I only have this because i got a good deal on the wire. Now i'm curious how 045 is. never tried it. The dual shield did make great looking beads and the flux just fell off but i thought this stuff was for thick plate. I would like to try the 045 but i dont wanna have to buy 4 V drive rolls to test it.
Your info isn't giving me much hope that .035 dual shield is worth it lol. You're able to run more wire than me and if you're not seeing much penetration I think it's hopeless for my 200 amp machine. I know .045 wire has solid penetration on 1/4 because that's what I ran briefly when I was in school. I have also watched 10+ videos with dual shield (none with .035) after I had my wierd test results and they seem to have exactly the penetration you would expect. I was going to buy a .045 roller for my welder only to find out I would have to swap liners, and there may not be a tip available for my gun in .045 size. So at this point I am going to try to hop on a friends 250 amp machine in a week and see what that does. IT's really too bad because like you said, the slag pops off instantly, it makes great looking beads, and I know it welds uphill good. I just wouldn't trust it depending on what needs to get welded.
I appreciate the videos Greg. I have a Miller multimatic 255 and a 352mpa with S-74wire feeder. I have the power but until i watched your videos i had never cut and etched. This 035 is the only dual shield i have tried and like you i am surprised and disappointed. I put a link in your second video where i researched some and found others who had experienced similar issues with 035. @@makingmistakeswithgreg
These tests on thick plates amazes me, at 07:45 quite funny looking color's pattern. Isn't the light-yellow/golden color on mild steel referring to 200-ish degrees Celsius(~400deg Fahrenheit)? Never thought that such low temperatures would be so close to molten puddle and with such abrupt transitions 🤔
Good eye and observations. The heat affected zone is pretty small with normal electrical welding processes because of how hot the weld is and how fast the weld is done. When you look at steel, the heat color tends to be about 2-3 times the size of the weld. 1/4 inch weld means the edge of the heat affected zone (and thus heat temper colors) is about 1/2 Inch away. When you weld stainless steel the material is such a poor conductor the heat affected zone/colors are very close to the weld, far closer than steel. On thicker steel like in the video the steel is such a heat sink that most of it doesn't get that hot. Those heat affected zone/temper colors are great at telling you how consistent your weld was and how much heat you actually put into a part. 😀
Very impressive and after the last results kind a what I awaited. After I saw the mess on the spool I wondered if it could be that there was a "hidden" feeding problem for the entire testseries so that the wire never got fast enough into the weld pool to transfer sufficient heat to the base metal? I looked up parameters on fronius app and they say 25,5V 12,5m(492in)/min wich results in only 165A for a fillet weld they also say it should be a spray arc then. Hmm. The Miller-app starts with wire 0.45 which I think equals somehow due to lower recommendations on feed rate. Maybe that is worth a try with the new spool. But Sprayarc with only 165Amps seems questionable to me.
I also saw similar numbers on one of my welding charts I saved. 26V no doubt is spraying with the wire. I am unsure as to how accurate my wire feed speed is, but when I was up at 410in/min I saw peaks of 200 amps on the output clamp. Its possible the clamp meter was not reading accurate. The overall performance of the wire was so poor that once I get a replacement spool I am going to do a bunch more testing. Considering the size of the weld and how fast I was running, I am sure the numbers have to be accurate to the clamp meter. I really think the .035 wire is such a oddball and uncommon that there isnt a lot of reliable data on it. Every chart I look at gives different info lol.
This wire ist weird. But my inner nerd refuses to believe that there is a cerified product with no practical application(except "welded surface finish"). And recommended parameters far out side anything that seems logical. There must be an error in the matrix 😂
I want to do different mixtures, the problem is they recommend 1.5 to 2 volts over c25 settings. My machine maxes out at 26v and 100% CO2 is 26.5 to 28. I will still try it though to see what happens, once I get a new spool. I will also test CO2 vs c25 with hardwire mig 😀
What would settings be for .045 wire. I just posted question on part 2 about my 250i Eastwood I am usually welding 1/8 to 3/8, sometimes 1/2 but usually after 1/8 breakout stick mood. Ranges on machine are 15-30 volts and 78-679 in/min. Would be nice to use one process.
I responded to your previous post with my thoughts. The shortened version is .045 dual shield with c25 gas and a variety of settings is what your best option is.
Hope this help: Welding is pretty complex and figuring out why certain things are done a certain way can be confusing. I will try to simplify it. The short circuit MiG process (aka not flux core or spray arc) is considered a prequalified procedure on steel up to I believe 5/16th thick. This means that depending on industry they may be able to use short arc MiG to weld structural steel (or something else made out of steel) that’s say 1/4inch thick, without having to have a welding engineer or company test/produce a procedure. In very simple terms this means that the process is safe, strong, and effective enough that it’s universally accepted (think over the counter Tylenol). Problems arise when a company wants to do something that’s not considered prequalified (like using short arc MiG on 3/4in plates in a fillet weld position), they will have to make a qualified procedure for it. There are reasons why short arc Mig is not prequalified on a 3/4 fillet weld and it has to do with a lack of penetration. Where dual shield, Gasless flux core, metal core, and spray arc come in is they provide the ability of wire welding to produce deeper penetration, stronger weld compositions, easier welding out of position, etc. Where this is confusing is in the case of this video the dual shield wire showed lower performance than short arc MiG in root fusion and bend testing away from the face. There are two reasons why this could be the case. 1) simply not enough power, my welder (run on a generator) is not capable of hitting high enough outputs to get enough heat. Despite the weld visually looking great, it’s root was trash. Reason 2) the particular wire (.035 dual shield) is simply not capable of carrying enough heat to fuse 3/8th steel. .035 hardwire MiG wire is solid and can carry far more amperage than .035 dual shield which is a hollow tube. During the dual shield testing in this video series the wire was coming out a liquid (spray arc) for many of the tests. It’s possible higher wire feed would have put more mechanical force on the Liquid Metal to push into the root, but I didn’t have the generator power. The other confusing thing with the .035 dual shield wire is setpoints and suggested metal thicknesses. I looked up 4 manufactures suggested plate thickness and setpoints and every one is completely different. Some Suggest max plate thickness of 5/16th, others say 3/4. Some say 330in/min wire and 23v for 3/8th, and others say 550 and 26v. My take is the wire is really designed for 1/4inch and under material, and that’s it. My take is this: dual shield is commonly used for welding thick structural steel, but it’s .045 and much bigger wires, which will absolutely have root fusion on say 3/8th plates. I feel that the .035 wire was never designed to weld over 1/4inch plate, and doesn’t perform on par with the bigger wires. Which leaves the question, why does it exist? Based on my testing it is outperformed by short arc mig on 1/4 and 3/8th. The only real benefit it has is it’s far easier to run vertical up with than short arc mig. I guess it’s also faster and produces really good looking beads. Considering the wire costs double what hardwire mig costs, and still requires the same gas, my conclusion to date is that it’s not worth the money if you have a 200amp wire welder over hardwire mig. Now I will be going back and retesting the wire soon, I have purchased a 250 amp machine and will be pushing the wire to much higher numbers (beyond a 200amp machines capability) to see if it will do any better. If it doesn’t perform then, it’s pretty much a 100% I don’t recommend.
I really enjoy your content, your knowledge, and your thoughtful responses to the comments on your channel. Thank you for taking the time to answer my question so thoroughly. Have a blessed day!@@makingmistakeswithgreg
I did, I will be testing the .035 and .045 blue demon soon. With the new esab machine I can hit much higher numbers so it shouldn’t be an issue running both. The .045 liner just came in today 😀.
Makes you wonder if it's burning in as well as they said it is. Did you put a voltmeter on your output to verify that the machine is putting out what it says it is?
In testing my machine hit a output of 185 to 200 amps with numerous setpoints in all the videos. The welder is capable of hitting 215-220 for short periods but by generator cant. The generator outputs pure sine wave so it’s the same quality of power as it was plugged to the wall. It’s pretty crazy to think a .035 wire at 190+ amps is beat by 125amps with self shielded flux core for penetration on 1/4in steel lol.
Interesting, I have a pack of their stainless tig rod and it’s good. I have never used their steel wire. It’s a pain to clean the wire when it’s coated with oil. I generally buy 10lb in bulk from numerous suppliers and it comes pretty clean and shiny copper.
Once I am done with tig I will do oxy fuel. I figured I would save it for winter here so the heat can help keep me warm in the tin shed 😅. I will cover cutting, gouging, and welding with it. Brazing too but I need to practice that a bit to get a handle on it. I can tig braze but oxy fuel is a different animal lol.
While you are waiting for dual shield replacement, perhaps you can test the feed speed with some 0.035 flux core and the appropriate roller, which would confirm your machine is about where it should be. Given what I’ve seen so far, I would bet your machine’s feed speed is very close. Hard to say because most people in general rarely weld with such high feed speeds, so we don’t really experience feed issues at those speeds, and do t know if our machines are off enough to affect weld penetration. But it’s worth a quick test. For those unfamiliar with feed speed tests… Set your feed speed and feed it for 6 seconds measure in inches the length of wire dispensed and multiply by 10 = should give you a reasonably accurate results. If the machine has a “Run In” feature i.e. when no current is sensed, it increases the feed speed to get the wire through the whip faster when changing it, is defeated. I am thinking that there was slipping at the drive rollers due to wire on the spool being what you presented, but honestly while that may have been a contributor, but even with a significantly lower wire feed, the wire would have exhibited those symptoms, and there should have been at least minor root penetration, but your tests consistently showed ZERO); I think there was simply something wrong with that particular spool. Perhaps a different brand will yield better results.
You now have access at your new employer to a Miller Multimatic 215. Do you think the 215 could weld dual Shield type flux core ((E71T-1c/1m) 0.035 with CO2 weld gas. IMHO the 215 runs hot, and if used with carbon dioxide and 0.035 wire. Before I invest in this setup, I would really like to hear your thoughts.
Jesus Christ, waiting for this was a real nail biter. Always thought dualshield was the answer when flux core gave porosity, like when doing thicker stuff. Maybe it is when the wire is thicker than 0.035.
I have a 200 amp class multiprocess machine and it came stock with 0.040 solid wire rollers and 0.045 flux core rollers. And the guns liner is meant for 0.023 to 0.045 stock. Primeweld mts 200 actually. It's a real good machine. It might be able to do 1/4 inch with flux core
That primeweld seems like a good machine. A friend of mine bought their tig machine and I liked it a lot when I used it. Eventually I will get around to upgrading my mig machine, when I go to a bigger shop it will happen. Right now I am trying to find a old factory full of lead paint and asbestos for very little money, and I cant even find one for any amount of money lol. I cant wait to move into a bigger place.
Nice stuff. Now you will need to do proper grinder prep technique. Will grinding a 1/16'' or 1/8'' off the edge of the plate give it a root weld for better strength? Or will it just leave a nice air gap? I have so many questions. The next one is: Why are these companies making such poor products for us home hobbyists?
You’re in luck, I have a video coming out next week where I do a bevel and weld it to see what happens. I have a ton of weld testing videos coming out and once they are all released I will be using 1/4inch plates and doing every process and comparing the results in a 2 part video. The testing will be more exact and with 8 samples per process. By the end of that everyone will have a lot better idea of why certain rods/wires are used and why some aren’t. Already I have had a ton of unexpected surprises.
I did test that in a upcoming video (with stick) and the results were interesting. Once I get a replacement spool of the dual shield I will do some additional testing 😀
And yet, the mystery remains. This has been confusing and the results disappointing. The results go against everything that I've ever heard about dual shield. I think, before you completely dismiss the process (for a 200a welder)...... I would seriously call Hobart or Lincoln and visit with their resident expert technician on dual shield. They've (Hobart....but I'd trust Lincoln too) provided excellent information to me in the past (on sticks/wires/processes), & they'll shoot you straight on what to expect, & the benefits/limitations of the product/process. I'm not down on Blue Demon, despite some of the other commenters, I've had pretty good luck with some of their tig fillers. But I do feel more confident in what Hobart/Lincoln will tell you. Hoping you get this sorted out; because I'm still optimistic about the process and would like to be able to use it myself. Thanks for all the effort that you're putting into this!
I know that you mentioned checking polarity.....but could it be something simple like the polarity is reversed?? I'd be tempted to switch it, just to see if it helped/ran terrible.
I will be testing another brand of dual shield .035 coming up, so I haven't given up on it entirely. I know I was on the right polarity, it runs terribly on DCEN, I tried it lol. The only things I could not control was gun angle and over 26v 440in/min wire feed speed. Gun angle I was limited to a drag angle that was far less than what I would consider a "aggressive angle" because I have to run the nozzle on the gun to hold the tip in. I have to find my flux core only nozzle which will allow me to run more of a drag angle I think. Its been suggested what could be going on is more drag angle will push the metal/flux away from the root rather than Infront of the wire. So I will try that and I will also stop by my buddies house who has a 250 amp miller and see what I can do with it. If all of that stuff comes back as fails I dont know what to say lol.
Preheating the material will increase the penetration without a doubt, I did a video on that. In the case of that particular wire I don’t think it would help a lot. I will be revisiting the .035 now that I have a more powerful welder, but I don’t think I will get penetration. After a ton of research I have come to the conclusion the .035 dual shield wire is really designed for 3/16th and under steel. Which is too bad because if it gave better penetration it would be a awesome option for guys with 200amp mig welders to weld 1/4 and 3/8th steel.
I sent the spool out for replacement, and will do some further testing once I get it. I have a feeling if I run a far steeper of a drag angle it may make a difference, probably not much. I will run it uphill in the future as well, which it runs uphill far better than short circuit mig.
Edit: I did do a bend test away from the face on a scrap test fillet weld. It actually held, and did no break. So the weld does have great tensile strength and good ductility, but the lack of root fusion means it has less strength than it should on a single pass. There will be more tests in the future 😀😀
Rad dude, I sent you a couple more emails with some thoughts.
And that 7014 cut and etch was rad as well.
Its hard to explain but I feel like with 75/25 the arc wants to dance up on the leading edge and not on the leading edge . Thats why I feel you need an aggressive gun angle. To almost keep the slag pushed back kinda like how folks do with .072 and up FCAW-S AWS D1.8 wires.
I am going to have to make some time and bust out my .035 FCAW-G and see if I can get root fusion like I did with the .045 .
greg uhm my old tombstone lincoln was my grandpa its a heirloom really the fan is like loose i d like to know how to like maintnec one or just kinda tighten it up
never mind i got it fixed with a few spirts of sae non detergent oil
@@stovolbelinche3178glad to hear that 😀
Greg, I discovered your channel while searching for solutions to poor penetration with 0.035 dual shield. I’ve watched a bunch of your vids since and think you’re doing an awesome job-thank you for sharing your knowledge, great channel!
Based on everything I had read, I was thinking exactly like you, that dual shield would be the ticket to getting my 200a mig machine to punch above its weight. I ran a few cut and etch tests on clean 3/16” material (lap joints) running 375-400 ipm and ~23-24V (~30 CFH C25, 3/4-1” stick out) and got nearly identical results to yours-nice looking welds but very shallow penetration on the legs and what looked like a complete lack of root fusion.
Being an ~intermediate level hobbyist I figured surely I’m just doing something wrong but didn’t have time to keep testing and planned to circle back and sort it out later. But having watched your thorough analysis I’m thinking there isn’t much left to sort out-other than practicing my stick welding for heavier material 😂-and maybe seeing if I can repurpose this 11 lb spool of wire as a boat anchor 😔. Thanks again! -Mike
Welcome and thanks for the kind words 😀. You are in the same boat as me, 11lbs of the wire with minimal uses. I will say it will weld thinner materials well, and it welds uphill great. For simple non liability work it will be fine. But obviously the results leave a lot to be desired. The fact you ran even higher feed speed than me and still had the same issues as I did on thinner material really says there is a problem with the product. If it actually worked even half as good as short arc MiG on root fusion it would be a awesome product. I know .045 and bigger wire will work great on thicker metal, that .035 is a definite no go lol.
Hey Greg, Id be really interested in seeing the results of some of the other brands like Hobart excel 71, lincoln 71m, or Rocklmount. Thanks for videos! And I've always heard that dualshield burns in real good so very surprised with the results.
Blue Demon is crap btw.
I definitely will be testing another brand just to see. I am a fan of lincoln so I will probably pickup their wire. Something just seems off with the testing to the point it's like I am missing something completely lol. I will also try a steeper drag angle with a non Mig nozzle. The contact tip is help in with the nozzle so I cant use a huge drag angle and keep the proper stickout. Stay tuned for me to revisit the testing, I want some answers lol.
Kurtis from Cutting Edge Engineering Australia uses dual shield usually WIA for rebuilding hydraulic cylinders. Could be well worth a look.
Another great video Greg! I’m baffled that it performed so poorly. I heard you state that you read online that other brands .035 had the same issues, and it’s actually a head scratcher. I can’t believe that companies would produce something so piss poor. I’d be half tempted to run another brand just to confirm.
I will be running another brand to confirm, and I will be using a friends 250amp miller to see what happens as well lol. At this point I am really thinking it's just a issue with the particular wire size, but I will surely figure out for sure soon.
Hi Greg,
You should be able to find a product data sheet online with specs for different brands and wire types.
Awesome, original content! Can't wait for more.👍👍
I have 30+ videos that are shot already. The ones of particular interest is testing wires/rods welds to failure. I had some surprising results during those. 😀
YES!!! PART 3 IS OUT!!!
hi Greg, Paul down here in Florida.....
.I am wondering if a different drag technique might help with the lack of fusion at the root....
a pull forward 1/8" and then back into the puddle, pull forward and back into the puddle......
I was always using flux core with gas with bigger machines and never did any root break tests.
something to try.....
as far as the spool condition, looks like someone let the wire get loose and then tried rewinding....
did the new spool and packaging look as if someone had been it previously......
looking forward to finding out how well BlueDeamon handles the situation.....
Best Wishes.....Paul
The spool had a paper wrap on it but that could have been removed and put back on without a issue. It could have been returned, due to amazon's policies its entirely possible. I am going to try what you mentioned and add some manipulation just to see what happens. I am also going to run a real steep drag angle to see what happens as well. With straight flux core I can see the wire chew into the plate (like a 6010 does) but with this dual shield its nowhere near that agressive. It seems to me like a 7018 just run twice as fast for travel speed lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg good luck, looking forward to seeing what you come up. with, I was really surprised with the 26 volt result.....but due to the lower amount of wire feed, there were less amps......great that you metered all the tests......now I am going to have to fire up my Lincoln and the 71T wire I picked up last year........cheers....Paul
Wow! So much for dual shield
Cool beans. It begs the question, what is the correct application of this product? Clearly thick plate isn't its purpose based on your testing, so it makes me wonder why manufacturers made it... You would think there was some situation that made it the proper fit. Interesting all the same. I'm also interested in hearing how Blue Demon responds to the issues you found in their wire/spool. While I haven't run any Blue Demon products, you do hear/see good things about them on-line. Anywho, great vid as usual and thanks for sharing!!
So I can be long winded but I am going to try to make this shorter 😅.
There are several reasons why FCAW -G ( ESAB’S trade name dual shield) was made for. Dual shield was made in the 50’s, I am pretty sure for the shipping industry.
Dual shield was made for welding out of position as it is a faster freezing puddle with a modified spray transfer. It welds very easy and goes in like butter with a wide range of settings. When you run this wire vertical up and overhead. The weld will punch right into the root of the joint and not fall out as easy.
What you see in this video is one of the down sides of the wire . Due to the properties of the wire , the puddle stays molten in a 2F and has a hard time punching into the root. It can be done, I have done it. But it takes some different techniques to do it. You could run 100 % co2 and get better penetration. Again it’s difficult to get that full root penetration with 75/25. I think you need a more aggressive drag angle, smaller weld size focusing staying on the leading edge of the puddle. Its hard to say how I see it . But its like the 75/25 arc is dancing on the puddle and slag can roll forward a bit . That contributes to the lack of root fusion.
Other than that. You get a bunch of benefits. In no order,
1. Its easy to train folks on.
2. You get more bang for your buck with efficiency of the wire.
3. It welds super smooth consistently.
4. Its great out of position.
5. Its fast, you can get so much work done with it because of the mig process.
6. Just to put a cap on it. It makes it so that you can have say like an older welder. Something with out all the bells and whistles like a pulse spray. Something like a miller 252. You can now weld out of position like a pulse spray welding machine , for way less money . And get the a lot of the penetration and deposition rates.
Also the mechanical properties are fantastic. It did not show in this video . But when you do bends, pulls , and charpy V notch test. Its fantastic dude.
Here is an article showing some cut and etchs. So you can see what the welds look like out of position welding.
weldinganswers.com/fcaw-prequalified-welding-procedures-and-their-limitations/
Blue demon makes a ton of rebranded products and has done well for me in the past. I think this wire suffers from the same issue that the others will in .035, poor performance in the flat position. I wouldn’t trust the .035 dual shield on over 1/4in plate, which pretty much sucks. The one benefit it does have is running vertical up it would be far easier than short arc MiG and stick. Beyond that I don’t see much benefit especially because it costs more than other options. What scares me the most is that the welds look really good and solid, yet perform poorer than short arc MiG lol.
@@blueweld75 Wow! Great info. and article to read. It was amazing to see how much root fusion was achieved out of position as opposed to what Greg was getting in the flat/horizontal position. More great stuff from this channel and it's subscribers!!
Excellent info, and thanks for sharing with everyone. No doubt it's fast, and welds vertical up easier than short arc. I like the way it runs, and the welds it produces, minus the lack of root fusion lol. I didn't show it in the video (I will in a upcoming shootout video) but I bent a fillet weld with the dual shield wire away from the face, and it didn't break. It definitely has good strength and ductility. It seems to be far less brittle than gasless flux core based on hand bending things. I just wish I got better results without needing to go to a bigger wire welder 😀
Appreciate the video. I’ve heard differently about dual shield. Would love to see another brand (esab, Lincoln) tested to put this dispute to rest indefinitely.
You’re in luck, I will be testing some more wires shortly. Dual shield has excellent performance in general. What you saw in the video I think is more of an issue with .035 dual shield. I have ran .045 dual shield in school a long time ago and had no results like in the video. Now that I have a 250a capable mig machine I will push the .035 harder and I will test .045 to see the differences it provides.
The .035 dual shield to me is a very limited use product. It requires high enough voltage that many home hobby level welders simply won’t run it properly. 100% C02 may give better results but that requires even more voltage. In all the testing I did I could not achieve any real penetration on 1/4inch and above, even on flat plate. The cost is higher than hardwire mig per inch of weld too. From a general use wire based on what I saw I don’t think it’s a real option for most people over hardwire MiG. In the further testing I will use 100% c02 and higher settings to see what happens. I know the .045 wire will perform, the question is if the .035 will.
Interesting set of tests and I agree, this doesn't seem like a useful product. I have a 180A/23V MIG, so I wouldn't be able to come close to using this.
But if I had to weld thick plate (and for whatever reason wanted to MIG, didn't want to use stick) would the way to go simply be to chamfer the edges and do a multipass? Is that worth testing?
At 180 amps there is no hope for sure, I metered my machine at numbers over than for numerous of the runs. I will honestly say I am pretty disappointed how it looks like it’s just not going to perform with sub 200 amp machine.
As to your question, I have a video coming out in the next week where I test welding with a bevel to see how effective it is. I also have a video testing preheating plates and how well it helps. Based on my experience I believe a 180amp wire welder with .035 flux core wire (or gas shielded mig) to be capable of welding 1/4, above that a solid preheat and a slight bevel will help.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg nice, looking forward to the next vids!
This is a very interesting series.
I wonder what it would do if you reverse the polarity. Maybe if the next spool doesn’t act right you can try that.
This also has me wondering how different all the other brands of wire perform as far as penetration. May be a project farm stall video in the future for different brands of wire hint hint.
I did try off camera to run DCEN with the wire, and needless to say it didnt work properly at all lol. I thought there would be a fight chance since gasless flux core runs DCEN but there isnt any hope of running that dual shield wire in that polarity. I will be testing a replacement spool and a second spool from another company as well.
Most definitely my dude, I just want to help folks where I can.
Based only on your test i have started testing mine and im not impressed either. I'm using a weldcote brand 035. Even bought rollers for it. I looked up the guidelines and it goes to 28v max. I tried 26v and 465ipm tonight on 3/8" It was spray mode. i then flipped and used my other welder to run a bead on pulse mig with millers settings with 035 solid. The pulse had better fusion. I also noticed with the dual shield i get that little pinhole on the inside root? I only have this because i got a good deal on the wire. Now i'm curious how 045 is. never tried it. The dual shield did make great looking beads and the flux just fell off but i thought this stuff was for thick plate. I would like to try the 045 but i dont wanna have to buy 4 V drive rolls to test it.
Your info isn't giving me much hope that .035 dual shield is worth it lol. You're able to run more wire than me and if you're not seeing much penetration I think it's hopeless for my 200 amp machine. I know .045 wire has solid penetration on 1/4 because that's what I ran briefly when I was in school. I have also watched 10+ videos with dual shield (none with .035) after I had my wierd test results and they seem to have exactly the penetration you would expect. I was going to buy a .045 roller for my welder only to find out I would have to swap liners, and there may not be a tip available for my gun in .045 size. So at this point I am going to try to hop on a friends 250 amp machine in a week and see what that does.
IT's really too bad because like you said, the slag pops off instantly, it makes great looking beads, and I know it welds uphill good. I just wouldn't trust it depending on what needs to get welded.
I appreciate the videos Greg. I have a Miller multimatic 255 and a 352mpa with S-74wire feeder. I have the power but until i watched your videos i had never cut and etched. This 035 is the only dual shield i have tried and like you i am surprised and disappointed. I put a link in your second video where i researched some and found others who had experienced similar issues with 035. @@makingmistakeswithgreg
Good info. I wouldn't use that wire no matter what welder I have.
These tests on thick plates amazes me, at 07:45 quite funny looking color's pattern. Isn't the light-yellow/golden color on mild steel referring to 200-ish degrees Celsius(~400deg Fahrenheit)? Never thought that such low temperatures would be so close to molten puddle and with such abrupt transitions 🤔
Good eye and observations. The heat affected zone is pretty small with normal electrical welding processes because of how hot the weld is and how fast the weld is done. When you look at steel, the heat color tends to be about 2-3 times the size of the weld. 1/4 inch weld means the edge of the heat affected zone (and thus heat temper colors) is about 1/2 Inch away. When you weld stainless steel the material is such a poor conductor the heat affected zone/colors are very close to the weld, far closer than steel. On thicker steel like in the video the steel is such a heat sink that most of it doesn't get that hot. Those heat affected zone/temper colors are great at telling you how consistent your weld was and how much heat you actually put into a part. 😀
Interesting, thank you! :-)
Very impressive and after the last results kind a what I awaited.
After I saw the mess on the spool I wondered if it could be that there was a "hidden" feeding problem for the entire testseries so that the wire never got fast enough into the weld pool to transfer sufficient heat to the base metal?
I looked up parameters on fronius app and they say 25,5V 12,5m(492in)/min wich results in only 165A for a fillet weld they also say it should be a spray arc then. Hmm. The Miller-app starts with wire 0.45 which I think equals somehow due to lower recommendations on feed rate. Maybe that is worth a try with the new spool. But Sprayarc with only 165Amps seems questionable to me.
I also saw similar numbers on one of my welding charts I saved. 26V no doubt is spraying with the wire. I am unsure as to how accurate my wire feed speed is, but when I was up at 410in/min I saw peaks of 200 amps on the output clamp. Its possible the clamp meter was not reading accurate. The overall performance of the wire was so poor that once I get a replacement spool I am going to do a bunch more testing. Considering the size of the weld and how fast I was running, I am sure the numbers have to be accurate to the clamp meter. I really think the .035 wire is such a oddball and uncommon that there isnt a lot of reliable data on it. Every chart I look at gives different info lol.
This wire ist weird. But my inner nerd refuses to believe that there is a cerified product with no practical application(except "welded surface finish"). And recommended parameters far out side anything that seems logical. There must be an error in the matrix 😂
I agree lol. I will do round two in a week or so, but the videos wont be out for about 2 weeks. I have a ton of videos I have to get through first. 😀
👍 Great stuff coming up. 😁
Could you test this wire with different gas mixtures like pure CO2?
I want to do different mixtures, the problem is they recommend 1.5 to 2 volts over c25 settings. My machine maxes out at 26v and 100% CO2 is 26.5 to 28. I will still try it though to see what happens, once I get a new spool. I will also test CO2 vs c25 with hardwire mig 😀
@@makingmistakeswithgreg I run .045 dual shield with CO2 and CO2 is going to give you a little bit hotter weld than see C 25
What would settings be for .045 wire. I just posted question on part 2 about my 250i Eastwood I am usually welding 1/8 to 3/8, sometimes 1/2 but usually after 1/8 breakout stick mood. Ranges on machine are 15-30 volts and 78-679 in/min. Would be nice to use one process.
I responded to your previous post with my thoughts. The shortened version is .045 dual shield with c25 gas and a variety of settings is what your best option is.
Hello. Really confusing stuff. I have been told that short circuit mig is "not structural" and that gas shielded flux core is. Any thoughts on this?
Hope this help:
Welding is pretty complex and figuring out why certain things are done a certain way can be confusing. I will try to simplify it. The short circuit MiG process (aka not flux core or spray arc) is considered a prequalified procedure on steel up to I believe 5/16th thick. This means that depending on industry they may be able to use short arc MiG to weld structural steel (or something else made out of steel) that’s say 1/4inch thick, without having to have a welding engineer or company test/produce a procedure. In very simple terms this means that the process is safe, strong, and effective enough that it’s universally accepted (think over the counter Tylenol). Problems arise when a company wants to do something that’s not considered prequalified (like using short arc MiG on 3/4in plates in a fillet weld position), they will have to make a qualified procedure for it. There are reasons why short arc Mig is not prequalified on a 3/4 fillet weld and it has to do with a lack of penetration.
Where dual shield, Gasless flux core, metal core, and spray arc come in is they provide the ability of wire welding to produce deeper penetration, stronger weld compositions, easier welding out of position, etc. Where this is confusing is in the case of this video the dual shield wire showed lower performance than short arc MiG in root fusion and bend testing away from the face. There are two reasons why this could be the case. 1) simply not enough power, my welder (run on a generator) is not capable of hitting high enough outputs to get enough heat. Despite the weld visually looking great, it’s root was trash. Reason 2) the particular wire (.035 dual shield) is simply not capable of carrying enough heat to fuse 3/8th steel. .035 hardwire MiG wire is solid and can carry far more amperage than .035 dual shield which is a hollow tube. During the dual shield testing in this video series the wire was coming out a liquid (spray arc) for many of the tests. It’s possible higher wire feed would have put more mechanical force on the Liquid Metal to push into the root, but I didn’t have the generator power. The other confusing thing with the .035 dual shield wire is setpoints and suggested metal thicknesses. I looked up 4 manufactures suggested plate thickness and setpoints and every one is completely different. Some Suggest max plate thickness of 5/16th, others say 3/4. Some say 330in/min wire and 23v for 3/8th, and others say 550 and 26v. My take is the wire is really designed for 1/4inch and under material, and that’s it.
My take is this: dual shield is commonly used for welding thick structural steel, but it’s .045 and much bigger wires, which will absolutely have root fusion on say 3/8th plates. I feel that the .035 wire was never designed to weld over 1/4inch plate, and doesn’t perform on par with the bigger wires. Which leaves the question, why does it exist? Based on my testing it is outperformed by short arc mig on 1/4 and 3/8th. The only real benefit it has is it’s far easier to run vertical up with than short arc mig. I guess it’s also faster and produces really good looking beads. Considering the wire costs double what hardwire mig costs, and still requires the same gas, my conclusion to date is that it’s not worth the money if you have a 200amp wire welder over hardwire mig.
Now I will be going back and retesting the wire soon, I have purchased a 250 amp machine and will be pushing the wire to much higher numbers (beyond a 200amp machines capability) to see if it will do any better. If it doesn’t perform then, it’s pretty much a 100% I don’t recommend.
I really enjoy your content, your knowledge, and your thoughtful responses to the comments on your channel. Thank you for taking the time to answer my question so thoroughly. Have a blessed day!@@makingmistakeswithgreg
Did you ever get a replacement spool from Blue Demon? I'm interested to see if you tried it and had any different results.
I did, I will be testing the .035 and .045 blue demon soon. With the new esab machine I can hit much higher numbers so it shouldn’t be an issue running both. The .045 liner just came in today 😀.
Makes you wonder if it's burning in as well as they said it is. Did you put a voltmeter on your output to verify that the machine is putting out what it says it is?
In testing my machine hit a output of 185 to 200 amps with numerous setpoints in all the videos. The welder is capable of hitting 215-220 for short periods but by generator cant. The generator outputs pure sine wave so it’s the same quality of power as it was plugged to the wall. It’s pretty crazy to think a .035 wire at 190+ amps is beat by 125amps with self shielded flux core for penetration on 1/4in steel lol.
I purchased blue demon tig rod and it is super dirty. Have to clean filler rod multiple wipes with acetone and they never get clean.
Interesting, I have a pack of their stainless tig rod and it’s good. I have never used their steel wire. It’s a pain to clean the wire when it’s coated with oil. I generally buy 10lb in bulk from numerous suppliers and it comes pretty clean and shiny copper.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg it is 4043 rod.
Thanks, you saved me fifty bucks.
Question: Are you going to do a oxy/acetylene course?
Once I am done with tig I will do oxy fuel. I figured I would save it for winter here so the heat can help keep me warm in the tin shed 😅. I will cover cutting, gouging, and welding with it. Brazing too but I need to practice that a bit to get a handle on it. I can tig braze but oxy fuel is a different animal lol.
While you are waiting for dual shield replacement, perhaps you can test the feed speed with some 0.035 flux core and the appropriate roller, which would confirm your machine is about where it should be. Given what I’ve seen so far, I would bet your machine’s feed speed is very close. Hard to say because most people in general rarely weld with such high feed speeds, so we don’t really experience feed issues at those speeds, and do t know if our machines are off enough to affect weld penetration. But it’s worth a quick test.
For those unfamiliar with feed speed tests…
Set your feed speed and feed it for 6 seconds measure in inches the length of wire dispensed and multiply by 10 = should give you a reasonably accurate results. If the machine has a “Run In” feature i.e. when no current is sensed, it increases the feed speed to get the wire through the whip faster when changing it, is defeated.
I am thinking that there was slipping at the drive rollers due to wire on the spool being what you presented, but honestly while that may have been a contributor, but even with a significantly lower wire feed, the wire would have exhibited those symptoms, and there should have been at least minor root penetration, but your tests consistently showed ZERO); I think there was simply something wrong with that particular spool. Perhaps a different brand will yield better results.
I just got in a new spool so testing will resume shortly 😀.
You now have access at your new employer to a Miller Multimatic 215. Do you think the 215 could weld dual Shield type flux core ((E71T-1c/1m) 0.035 with CO2 weld gas.
IMHO the 215 runs hot, and if used with carbon dioxide and 0.035 wire. Before I invest in this setup, I would really like to hear your thoughts.
Jesus Christ, waiting for this was a real nail biter. Always thought dualshield was the answer when flux core gave porosity, like when doing thicker stuff. Maybe it is when the wire is thicker than 0.035.
No doubt .045 dual shield and a 250+ amp class machine will perform great. The problem is, most of use don’t have such a machine lol.
I have a 200 amp class multiprocess machine and it came stock with 0.040 solid wire rollers and 0.045 flux core rollers. And the guns liner is meant for 0.023 to 0.045 stock. Primeweld mts 200 actually. It's a real good machine. It might be able to do 1/4 inch with flux core
That primeweld seems like a good machine. A friend of mine bought their tig machine and I liked it a lot when I used it. Eventually I will get around to upgrading my mig machine, when I go to a bigger shop it will happen. Right now I am trying to find a old factory full of lead paint and asbestos for very little money, and I cant even find one for any amount of money lol. I cant wait to move into a bigger place.
Nice stuff. Now you will need to do proper grinder prep technique. Will grinding a 1/16'' or 1/8'' off the edge of the plate give it a root weld for better strength? Or will it just leave a nice air gap? I have so many questions. The next one is: Why are these companies making such poor products for us home hobbyists?
You’re in luck, I have a video coming out next week where I do a bevel and weld it to see what happens. I have a ton of weld testing videos coming out and once they are all released I will be using 1/4inch plates and doing every process and comparing the results in a 2 part video. The testing will be more exact and with 8 samples per process. By the end of that everyone will have a lot better idea of why certain rods/wires are used and why some aren’t. Already I have had a ton of unexpected surprises.
Maybe you need a 16th inch gap between plates?
I did test that in a upcoming video (with stick) and the results were interesting. Once I get a replacement spool of the dual shield I will do some additional testing 😀
And yet, the mystery remains. This has been confusing and the results disappointing. The results go against everything that I've ever heard about dual shield. I think, before you completely dismiss the process (for a 200a welder)...... I would seriously call Hobart or Lincoln and visit with their resident expert technician on dual shield. They've (Hobart....but I'd trust Lincoln too) provided excellent information to me in the past (on sticks/wires/processes), & they'll shoot you straight on what to expect, & the benefits/limitations of the product/process.
I'm not down on Blue Demon, despite some of the other commenters, I've had pretty good luck with some of their tig fillers. But I do feel more confident in what Hobart/Lincoln will tell you.
Hoping you get this sorted out; because I'm still optimistic about the process and would like to be able to use it myself. Thanks for all the effort that you're putting into this!
I know that you mentioned checking polarity.....but could it be something simple like the polarity is reversed?? I'd be tempted to switch it, just to see if it helped/ran terrible.
I will be testing another brand of dual shield .035 coming up, so I haven't given up on it entirely. I know I was on the right polarity, it runs terribly on DCEN, I tried it lol. The only things I could not control was gun angle and over 26v 440in/min wire feed speed. Gun angle I was limited to a drag angle that was far less than what I would consider a "aggressive angle" because I have to run the nozzle on the gun to hold the tip in. I have to find my flux core only nozzle which will allow me to run more of a drag angle I think. Its been suggested what could be going on is more drag angle will push the metal/flux away from the root rather than Infront of the wire. So I will try that and I will also stop by my buddies house who has a 250 amp miller and see what I can do with it. If all of that stuff comes back as fails I dont know what to say lol.
Maybe if you heat the work first? idk. It might not even be worth the extra time and effort....
Preheating the material will increase the penetration without a doubt, I did a video on that. In the case of that particular wire I don’t think it would help a lot. I will be revisiting the .035 now that I have a more powerful welder, but I don’t think I will get penetration. After a ton of research I have come to the conclusion the .035 dual shield wire is really designed for 3/16th and under steel. Which is too bad because if it gave better penetration it would be a awesome option for guys with 200amp mig welders to weld 1/4 and 3/8th steel.