I also base my Republican Romans in standard size, and for the same reason. I like your idea with modified feign flight to represent the relieving of the line quite a bit.
Long time since I've looked at Hail Caesar so I can't recall how they suggest they replicate the manipular tactics. I will be using the rules for Romans soon though and I like the sound of your idea. From memory, only Warhammer Ancient Battles did a good job of depicting a version of the tactics in the Hannibal supplement. I really don't like the idea of the small units fighting side by side for a combat factor of 10 though, especially when a Marian unit at full size only gets 7, it's a bit gamey IMO to give 2 small Polybian units 10 dice!
OK Scott, I have carried close quarter weapons (Pike) in ECW re-enactment. You end up in a push in which both sides have limited capacity to inflict injury, but know that should they force the others back the kill capacity becomes significantly higher. So since most descriptions of the Alexandrian and Successor wars emphasise the use of the phalanx as both a defensive and offensive weapon, but in either case, the capacity to force the enemy back from an engaged fight was seen as an absolute precursor to victory, how do you thing the hastati could break combat to allow the princpes to replace them. My pike unit, Hampdens would not have been capable of doing that. Usually re-enactment pike pushes ended up with the shout of "Man Down", at which both sides would back off. In real life I suspect that would have been a killing opportunity. As you say, no-one knows how the drill worked, nor do we know how it succeded. For the last 50 years of my life I have been convinced that it was theoretical, not practical. If you are not pushing them back, you cannot break off with any semblence of expected survival. If you are pushing them back, you are far too busy to give them a chance to reform, let alone sacrificing your chances of killing the buggers on the ground. Simon
Great observation and question! In a pike v pike or Spear v Spear or Spear v pike situation ‘breaking off’ would be near impossible. But the Hastati and Principes were drilled to be fencers. They could quite easily break off combat with a pike phalanx in my opinion. The pike block by necessity moved at a rather sedate pace once engaged,.. by contrast the looser order Roman’s could break off and literally flee through the maniples of Principes who could then charge forward, hurl pila and then engage. I can not claim to have served in a pike phalanx but I have manoeuvred close to 1000 actual troops on a parade ground and have a keen appreciation on the difficulty in manoeuvring formed bodies of troops.
Seems to be a reasonable approah, will be keen to find out how it plays out on the tabletop. And a huge congrats on the 2k subscribers, well deserved Good Sir!
First off, Love the figures. Especially the Macedonian blocks. Very interesting way of using the formations. I think you're correct as it would seem to make more sense to rest the guys...but then again if they were getting a good beating they would retire behind the Triarii. Looking forward to the after action report and any other notes you've got on Hail Caesar II.
I suspect that the commanders would make the judgment call an whether the Hastati were capable of fighting another round on a ‘case by case’ situation. If they had seen previous action then maybe they could fight a 2nd round. If freshly raised then “no, let’s not risk it”. Maybe I’ll only permit freshly raised legions to only fight a single round of combat with the Hastati and Principes. Obviously this is pure speculation on my part but it makes sense to me that if the manipular formations were specifically to enhance command and control and facilitate resting (and reorganising?) then to maximise that advantage a commander might want to recommit rested troops, otherwise why rest them at all?
Interesting. In my House Rules I have a "Manipular Tactics/unit swap", similar to your method, allowing maniples to pull back and "rest" (try to remove Disorganisation/Shock) while their replacements take the strain. I don't use "Hail Caesar", so I'm not familiar with the "Disorganisation/Shock" mechanics in that set, but I have an additional wrinkle to your Manipular Manoeuvre whereby there is a risk to the Romans in terms of a test for "Disorganisation/Shock" while carrying out the swap (more experienced units being more likely to carry this out without penalty). To balance this, the carrying out of the manoeuvrer also forces a Reaction Test on any individual unit fighting a "swapping" unit. Failing THIS test forces a small "involuntary advance" on the opposing unit which may itself (depending on Test results) also increase disorganisation/Shock on said unit - as well as disrupting a line of battle.
Thanks for your comments. Hail Caesar is what I like to refer to as a ‘tool box’ system. You can add or subtract any rule you wish to better reflect the historical reality. My suggestion I’ve deliberately kept as simple as possible but there is no reason why additional tests couldn’t be added in.
@@CheckYourLeaderTV Absolutely. I like it when a rules designer mentions this themselves.. I'm an inveterate tweaker and "Rules Cannibal" myself - and my House Rules are constantly evolving as new data comes in....
My main opponent is a Macedonian player, while I have the Romans. He's certain that 2 small units of Romans will over come any pike block, while I remain terrified of pike with their ability to nerf my attack and hold on even when losing by 1 or 2. Usually it all comes to a stalemate while waiting to see who wins the cavalry battle on the wings. The situation you don't address is that 1v1 division will probably be 3 pike units with supporting light in a line against 5 small roman units. The triple Roman line just does not work. There are not enough units to form a battle line. Even if both the Hastati and Principes, its a difficult fight for the Roman side. It may work for the Triarii stand back on the side to hold one of the pike blocks out of combat with LOS and Proximity. But even that is not very historical as the Triarii is on the flank rather than in the rear. Hail Caesar does have mechanics for units falling back with out using feign flight. But it does require a loss in combat to trigger a fall back. To experiment more with this, the next time we play, the Hastati will be set up as Medium rather than Heavy. This should introduce more situations where the Hastati fall back "o rest and regroup.
I think I do address the issue. I note that with Small units the Roman Line will be overlapped whereas is the Roman’s have regular sized units they probably won’t
Thanks for this post. Like you, my Republican Romans were based for Impetus. My heart sank when I saw that Hail Ceasar said they should be small units. Also like you, I thought that gave them an overly generous advantage. I kept my units on the 120cm bases. I really like your idea of "manipular tactics." Spot on, in my opinion. Here is a link to a recent game we had with my Romans against the Carthaginians. th-cam.com/video/vLrqrrio7KA/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for the link. Nice looking game! 👍 Let me know if you use my suggested method next time you trot your miniatures out and how it plays out. Cheers
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I also base my Republican Romans in standard size, and for the same reason. I like your idea with modified feign flight to represent the relieving of the line quite a bit.
Long time since I've looked at Hail Caesar so I can't recall how they suggest they replicate the manipular tactics. I will be using the rules for Romans soon though and I like the sound of your idea. From memory, only Warhammer Ancient Battles did a good job of depicting a version of the tactics in the Hannibal supplement. I really don't like the idea of the small units fighting side by side for a combat factor of 10 though, especially when a Marian unit at full size only gets 7, it's a bit gamey IMO to give 2 small Polybian units 10 dice!
OK Scott, I have carried close quarter weapons (Pike) in ECW re-enactment. You end up in a push in which both sides have limited capacity to inflict injury, but know that should they force the others back the kill capacity becomes significantly higher.
So since most descriptions of the Alexandrian and Successor wars emphasise the use of the phalanx as both a defensive and offensive weapon, but in either case, the capacity to force the enemy back from an engaged fight was seen as an absolute precursor to victory, how do you thing the hastati could break combat to allow the princpes to replace them.
My pike unit, Hampdens would not have been capable of doing that. Usually re-enactment pike pushes ended up with the shout of "Man Down", at which both sides would back off. In real life I suspect that would have been a killing opportunity.
As you say, no-one knows how the drill worked, nor do we know how it succeded. For the last 50 years of my life I have been convinced that it was theoretical, not practical. If you are not pushing them back, you cannot break off with any semblence of expected survival. If you are pushing them back, you are far too busy to give them a chance to reform, let alone sacrificing your chances of killing the buggers on the ground.
Simon
Great observation and question! In a pike v pike or Spear v Spear or Spear v pike situation ‘breaking off’ would be near impossible. But the Hastati and Principes were drilled to be fencers. They could quite easily break off combat with a pike phalanx in my opinion. The pike block by necessity moved at a rather sedate pace once engaged,.. by contrast the looser order Roman’s could break off and literally flee through the maniples of Principes who could then charge forward, hurl pila and then engage. I can not claim to have served in a pike phalanx but I have manoeuvred close to 1000 actual troops on a parade ground and have a keen appreciation on the difficulty in manoeuvring formed bodies of troops.
Seems to be a reasonable approah, will be keen to find out how it plays out on the tabletop. And a huge congrats on the 2k subscribers, well deserved Good Sir!
Well, in 50 years or so, they will be. That is hindsight! Superb.
Foreshadowing 😁
agreed
- maniples for manouver but battle line when in contact
- and rolling replacement for resting once in contact
That’s my conclusion
And mine!!@@CheckYourLeaderTV
First off, Love the figures. Especially the Macedonian blocks. Very interesting way of using the formations. I think you're correct as it would seem to make more sense to rest the guys...but then again if they were getting a good beating they would retire behind the Triarii. Looking forward to the after action report and any other notes you've got on Hail Caesar II.
I suspect that the commanders would make the judgment call an whether the Hastati were capable of fighting another round on a ‘case by case’ situation. If they had seen previous action then maybe they could fight a 2nd round. If freshly raised then “no, let’s not risk it”. Maybe I’ll only permit freshly raised legions to only fight a single round of combat with the Hastati and Principes. Obviously this is pure speculation on my part but it makes sense to me that if the manipular formations were specifically to enhance command and control and facilitate resting (and reorganising?) then to maximise that advantage a commander might want to recommit rested troops, otherwise why rest them at all?
Great stuff mate, great to see my old Republicans in use. I think you are spot on
Interesting.
In my House Rules I have a "Manipular Tactics/unit swap", similar to your method, allowing maniples to pull back and "rest" (try to remove Disorganisation/Shock) while their replacements take the strain.
I don't use "Hail Caesar", so I'm not familiar with the "Disorganisation/Shock" mechanics in that set, but I have an additional wrinkle to your Manipular Manoeuvre whereby there is a risk to the Romans in terms of a test for "Disorganisation/Shock" while carrying out the swap (more experienced units being more likely to carry this out without penalty).
To balance this, the carrying out of the manoeuvrer also forces a Reaction Test on any individual unit fighting a "swapping" unit. Failing THIS test forces a small "involuntary advance" on the opposing unit which may itself (depending on Test results) also increase disorganisation/Shock on said unit - as well as disrupting a line of battle.
Thanks for your comments. Hail Caesar is what I like to refer to as a ‘tool box’ system. You can add or subtract any rule you wish to better reflect the historical reality. My suggestion I’ve deliberately kept as simple as possible but there is no reason why additional tests couldn’t be added in.
@@CheckYourLeaderTV Absolutely. I like it when a rules designer mentions this themselves..
I'm an inveterate tweaker and "Rules Cannibal" myself - and my House Rules are constantly evolving as new data comes in....
Great video. Thank you!
Really like your interpretation, I have sent a link to my pal so hopefully we can give it a try next time out.
I’d be interested to hear how it works out for you and your thoughts.
@@CheckYourLeaderTV I don't know when it will be but I will be sure to let you know.
My main opponent is a Macedonian player, while I have the Romans. He's certain that 2 small units of Romans will over come any pike block, while I remain terrified of pike with their ability to nerf my attack and hold on even when losing by 1 or 2. Usually it all comes to a stalemate while waiting to see who wins the cavalry battle on the wings.
The situation you don't address is that 1v1 division will probably be 3 pike units with supporting light in a line against 5 small roman units. The triple Roman line just does not work. There are not enough units to form a battle line. Even if both the Hastati and Principes, its a difficult fight for the Roman side. It may work for the Triarii stand back on the side to hold one of the pike blocks out of combat with LOS and Proximity. But even that is not very historical as the Triarii is on the flank rather than in the rear.
Hail Caesar does have mechanics for units falling back with out using feign flight. But it does require a loss in combat to trigger a fall back. To experiment more with this, the next time we play, the Hastati will be set up as Medium rather than Heavy. This should introduce more situations where the Hastati fall back "o rest and regroup.
I think I do address the issue. I note that with Small units the Roman Line will be overlapped whereas is the Roman’s have regular sized units they probably won’t
Very interesting, thank you.
Nice work 👏
Thanks for this post. Like you, my Republican Romans were based for Impetus. My heart sank when I saw that Hail Ceasar said they should be small units. Also like you, I thought that gave them an overly generous advantage. I kept my units on the 120cm bases. I really like your idea of "manipular tactics." Spot on, in my opinion. Here is a link to a recent game we had with my Romans against the Carthaginians. th-cam.com/video/vLrqrrio7KA/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for the link. Nice looking game! 👍 Let me know if you use my suggested method next time you trot your miniatures out and how it plays out. Cheers