15 Key Differences Between the SELMER Mark VI and SBA Saxophones
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ต.ค. 2024
- #bettersax #saxophone #selmer
Jay Metcalf speaks with John Leadbetter of JL Woodwinds to discuss the differences between the Selmer Mark VI and Selmer SBA saxophones.
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Jay I really want to thank you SO much for stopping by our saxophone shop in New York City! ❤️🙏 Making this video with you was honestly such a wonderful experience and a total blast. Also, I really enjoyed trying out the Better Sax Mouthpieces and I am looking forward to carrying them in our shop. 🙌🎷
Thanks John! Next time I’m in town let’s do another one!
Loved your playing on this video! Such SWEET licks! Have you participated in any recordings that I can get my hands on? I intend to download the video into Transcribe, so I can try to cop some of those licks.
You are blessed with some amazing chops.
Thank You. Thank You very much!
My first alto sax from John shop! Amazing man, professional musician, extremely attentive seller and very friendly! Very happy to meet John! I wish him prosperity in his business!!!
I’m a total sax nerd (like we all are if we’re being honest), and I love learning this kind of stuff…but John’s playing stole the show. What a sound he gets on the SBA!
The only tenor I've ever played is a SBA #41916. Found it 32 years ago in my great uncles attic when I was 11 years old. I wouldn't trade it for $1 million. It was with me at UCLA, served 5 years in the USMC and it will continue to be played by my son long after I'm gone.
SBA is a better horn especially than the MK 6 s after the early 60s....there is a difference....SBA is freer blowing 6s many of them are stuffy
I agree. I absolutely love playing this horn.
Wow - what an amount of know-how and: ability to play!! Chapeau! I‘d love to hear him on alto, too… But, Jay: You did a great job in recording (and videotaping) as well! That‘s also part of that great sound here!
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This was great. John's playing is beautiful! Would love to hear about other similar comparisons such as: Mark VI vs Mark 7, Modern Selmer vs Yanigasawa or Yamaha (less about sound and more from a technical standpoint). Ty for putting this together Jay and John! 👏
haha as someone who used to regularly play a Mark VI low A bari for several years, now playing an SA 80 II brushed bari, and having tried a Mark VII bari, there is no comparison. The Mark VI is far superior in feel and sound. Also, I once had a Yani soprano (Elimona IIRC) and now own an SA 80 II brushed soprano, I personally feel the Selmer sounds and feels better.
Just my 2 cents.
What an amazing video! Congratulations! This video is definitely the best of it’s kind: great playing, thoroughly informative, beautiful sound quality and videos production. …and the Oscar goes to….Better Sax!
John's tone is gorgeous. I have a Mark VI alto and I love it. I've never tried an SBA, so thanks for the comparison.
In all my years watching saxophone videos with historical and other information this is certainly one of the best lve everseen.
This was very cool to see the side-by-side comparison. I played on a school-owned Mark VII tenor in college 30 years ago. It was beat all to hell from years of abuse, but the thing I remember most about that horn was how perfect it felt in the hand. Key placement and action felt completely natural. Was slightly mortified when I tripped carrying it up some concrete stairs, bent the octave key at a 90 degree angle straight up and put a divot in the top of the neck. Luckily, I worked in an instrument repair shop at the time and had the metal tech fix it for me, good as new. My current horn, which I've had since I got out of college, is a 20's vintage Buescher. The action is nothing like a Selmer, but I do love how it sounds. I liken it to driving a vintage car, you know what your getting into when you put your hands on it, and you may have to work a bit harder to operate it, but it's still a lot of fun. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks so much for this terrific video! I've talked to John and been to his shop, and his passion and affection for Selmer saxophones (the SBA in particular) is evident. He's currently overhauling my SBA alto, and I can't wait to play it!
This is great stuff. I love my MK VI alto and all the history that comes with it but boy does it still sing after all these years.
Thank you so much for this video. Selmer are second to none and John is a amazing repairer and player if I was wanting an instrument and living in the USA I would go to see John! - God bless him and you as well - Bill - UK
Great info here Jay, thanks for sharing!
Thanks Nigel
Love this. Love his playing too.
Would be nice to see an alto version, though it would be showing nearly all the same details.
Very informative. Thanks Jay and JL, for this wonderful collab 👏🏾
Really enjoyed this video. This was a very insightful discussion about two of my favorite saxophones. John, really fantastic sound and playing on both of these horns!
Thanks for visiting my favorite place in NYC. JL is da MAN!!!
This was a great idea for a video. I’ve watched it 3 times now. Thanks so much for doing this one.
Wow! What an amazing player. Seriously tasty lines throughout the entire video.
Thank goodness you covered #14 on the SBA. I remember a private lesson with my college professor. I was playing something with a quick low C# --> Bb --> C#. I ended up keeping the tip of my pinky on the C# key and quickly rocking my left hand so I could press Bb with the side of my pinky knuckle. My prof lost his mind, thinking I had too much extraneous movement. I handed him my horn and asked him to play it. He couldn't, and quicky agreed with my approach. We had a good laugh about it.
When adjusted properly I personally find the SBA plateau operation to be so much more fast and efficient than later design. Where the SBA falls short in my opinion is at the mechanical key linkage between the low B and the low C# key cups. Unless the Low B rod is perfectly fitted to its pivot screw and the Low C# spring tension is spot on, the low B key cup will tend to bend and leak if you rock C#->B or C#-> Bb while keeping C# pressed.
Listening to John play reminds one of the importance of choosing a technician that is also a great player when getting a vintage saxophone overhauled.
The importance of a good tech who is an expert player cannot be overstated. I play on an entry level pro Yamaha (YTS62iii) for years, and just accepted its clankiness as part of the deal, even though it was "serviced" by the retailer I bought it from on a 6 monthly basis. 2 weeks ago I got it serviced by a master at The Sax Clinic in Valparaiso, rural IN, and it now plays as good as any expensive Yamaha or Selmer I have ever played.
That guy plays and sounds incredible, great video.
Jay and John: Thank you ever so much for an informative and fun discussion on these two iconic horns. I'm fortunate to play a five digit silver MkVI and simply love it, but I've always wanted to try an SBA, now more than ever. I hope I can get over to JL Woodwinds the next time I'm in NYC.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I just got my 164,xxx Mark VI 2 days ago and I love it. Easily the best horn I've ever laid my hands on.
I love this guy, i bought a sax from him, a great guy!
Great video. I never paid attention to all the differences, so this opened my eyes and now I am looking at my various horns to see where differences are even among other brands.
Great playing! I enjoyed that the most ! Thanks
Such a great player...enjoying the musical interludes
I've owned a SBA tenor (38,XXX) since 1999, so I found this very informative.
Great video! Really appreciate his pov and expertise. For some reason I always seem to find videos like this after I make a big purchase. Lol.
Only push back, felt like an SBA commercial… smile
Awesome player and technician!🙏🙏🙏
I have had my Mark VI alto for 50 years. I love the sound. Never had or tried an SBA but never had a need with my Mark VI around.
Very informative video, Jay. Would love to get up to John’s store sometime soon. A fantastic player and clearly knows what he is doing! Appreciate the content.
Hi Better sax ! Thank you very much for your video, it's very interesting ! I'm a professional player from France and I've owned a 1951 silver plated SBA that i changed for a 1964 Mk6. I can say I prefer the Mark 6, i've found the sba very hard to play (It was a long bell ). The sound on the 6 is more flexible more rich in the second octave and more focused. I can suggest If you want to buy a sba try various instruments ! (It's the same for 6...)
Informative video. I like my Selmer soprano, but still play a 1953 Conn (lady in the bell) tenor. It's heavy, a little clunky, but it is consistent in pitch & gives me the tone/timbre I like, after customizing a bit. Since I focus on warm ballad timbre & not fast & furious jazz riffs, it suits me well. I also keep a cheap Chinese knockoff handy, and have eventually found the mouthpiece/ligature/reed combo that works for me. I do have to use some fingering tricks to keep the pitch consistent though. Preferences differ with each player. But it's a joy when it works.
Nice informative, well produced video and I love his playing talent..!!
I've always preferred the SBA to the Mark VI, alto or tenor. They seem to play similar in sound to Conns, which is why I switched to Conns.
I would've switched to SBAs, but the prices are astronomical! So, Conn it was. I've actually played SBA's only one time and loved them immediately.
However, I have played a plethora of VI's, and most of them weren't very good.
The SBA alto is a beast. Paul. Desmond said no-thanks to a Mark VI.
This was a great vid. Might be fun to compare an SBA to an earlier Mk VI (5-digit of course) since there were production changes over the long run of Mk VI horns.
I had the same question. I pulled out my 6x,xxx MK VI and watched the video again. I had always heard that the early MK VI tenors were more SBA than MK VI with important MK VI improvements. Here's a rundown of where my horn falls between the SBA and MK VI in the video.
1. SBA-Aperture is 13mm.
2. MK VI - Stamped octave key (has matching serial number)
3. SBA- more spread tone than other MK VI's I've played
4. MK VI- octave key is MK VI design
5. SBA - Front F is identical to the SBA
6. SBA - The claws are closed and not open on the end. Stays very quiet
7. SBA - The F# is identical to SBA.
8. MK VI - brass adjustable thumb rest
9. SBA - Bow guard looks like the SBA guard
10. MK VI - More detail in the engraving than the MK VI in video but not as beautiful than SBA.
11. MK VI - Bell key guards are solid MK VI design
12. MK VI - pant guard is MK VI design
13. SBA - horn has great intonation. What else would I say 🙂
14. MK VI - left hand table has MK VI improvements
15. MK VI - black plastic
It looks like my horn is 47% SBA and 53% MK VI. However, by comparing the rods, keys and key cups, it looks like my MK VI has the same rods, keys and key cups as the SBA. It could be stated that my MK VI is more of an SBA with these 8 notable MK VI improvements or a MK VI with leftover SBA parts. I'd like to think my tenor is the best of both horns with a lush tone of an SBA and the great keyword of the MK VI, which makes it a Super-Balanced Mark VI. However, when all is said and done, because Selmer engraved "Mark VI" on it, my horn is a Mark VI... mostly.
I wanted so badly to visit this shop when I was in NYC recently, but I never made it over. Next time, I suppose.
HES really a fantastic Player and a Sax Experte. Thanks for this very interesting Video.
If I had to put money on it, I’d say John is a fan of Stan Getz, what an absolutely wonderful tone!
Wow, he has a GREAT SOUND!!
I have a SBA alto serial # 22***
Love it ...find that the middle c is always a little flat
John has a monster sound Jay. Great job recording it. Btw I have a 63 alto and a 69 tenor - both have a huge sound, but I’ve played some from that era that were terrible. Chalk and cheese. Weird that they could vary so much.
Kinda makes you wonder if those horns were in poor adjustment, or if they just needed a little attention from a guy like John.
I play a 75k MkVI alto that people swore was a dog, then I had someone who knew what they were doing overhaul it - it’s now a rocket of a player.
@@disgruntled_llama Agree to some extent, but some of the horns I've played just sounded bad. No resonance at all, almost as if they'd used a different alloy. My 69 tenor was badly out of adjustment when I got it, and hard to play, but individual notes still sounded big and full. Once I'd set it up it played as well as it sounded.
Thanks for doing this! Would love to see a similar feature with John of the Conn NWII tenor saxophone, Transitional tenor and the 10M.
I play a Cannonball Vintage Reserve and it's neat to see elements of both horns in the design.
Love John Leadbetter, I bought my P. Mauriat tenor from him.
Jay and John, thank you for a great and informative interview and video. Great playing, John! From my personal perspective, the only thing that could have made it better would be if the comparison was between two alto horns! I love both horns, but prefer the tone of the SBA. #14 is particularly accurate in that from playing a Mark VI (alto), I've had to adjust my left little finger action to attain any kind of smooth playability on the SBA after having played a Mark VI for years. I was also intrigued by #1 as I've always thought, from an alto perspective, that a Mark VI could approach the sound of a trumpet, while an SBA could approach the sound of a clarinet. I don't have a Mark VI handy to compare the necks, but I do have two SBA necks at hand, a '51 and a '54. Use of the '54 neck makes the sax sound similar to a Mark VI while use of the '51 neck gives the saxophone Paul Desmond like qualities. As a result of this video, I compared the apertures of the two necks. The apertures were identical, but the '51 neck has a different taper that opens up almost immediately while the '54 neck has a very smooth and gradual taper.
When I visited the Selmer show room in Paris they were adamant that there was never an SBA model. They said there was balanced action, then super action, then MK VI. The fella told me that Americans conflated the names “balanced action” and “super action” and have wrongly called horns sba’s since. Any thoughts on this? I have a super action from 1951 and a modern super action 80 jubilee that I use as my working horn so loved this video. Thanks for all your rocking sax content!!
Yes, this is accurate.
What a knowledgeable lad
I got my Super Balanced Action tenor 50XXX in 1979, for $400. It was brand new, (New Old Stock) even though it was made in 1952. (27 years earlier).
The separate low key brackets are on the Balanced Action which is an earlier model. The Super Balanced Action has a single bracket like the Mark VI !
Interesting comparison. I had a Mark VI (alto) in the late 60's early 70's and it was a great horn (but it got stolen). I now have an Amati (from the late 70's), on which I recently tried to do some key adjustments, but ended up making things worse -- that G# is a delicate one. I took it to a technician and in 1 hour he had the horn sounding better than ever.
Hi bro Rob, May I please know the model of your Amati. I have Amati kraslice also. It's great horn! Very good sound.
@@cloudbliztv sliver Amati Classic Deluxe (made in Czechoslovakia)
I retired from playing a couple of years ago after playing a Selmer Mk 6 tenor bought new in 1965. It served me very well but there were two features on the instrument which I felt could have been improved.
1. The trill key cluster design with the middle key being the smallest meant that in quick passages, it was difficult to hit without coming into some contact with either one or other of the adjacent ones.
2. The middle D key spring never seemed to be strong enough to avoid the key bouncing when trilling from D to E. This was not a problem on the alto, being a smaller size with a shorter spring. This wasn't unique to my tenor, I found examples elsewhere as well. If you hold the instrument horizontally and flick the D key, that illustrates the problem.
My dream instrument 🥺 someday ill buy it and learn how to play it
I totally agree with Jay, your tone is excellent! What mouthpiece do you play? Thanks a lot for this video, very informative!
I have tried both of them, from my perspective, I love sba more than mk6 because of the sound. I am not sure if I did wrong with them. 🤣
I like SBA left pinky cluster better then Mark 6 which can be clanky and sloppy.
It's the "Super Action". People started adding "Balanced" to the name when Selmer later came out with the Super Action 80.
Excellent! Great info! Good Idea Jay. I wish i could try John´s JL horns.
I played one. Very nice!
That's very interessting and therefor I would like to know if you also have a video about the two Selmer altosaxes ? I would very much want to hear and see it. At last I must compliment you for your wonderful sound in the tenor.
On your tenor.
Thanks Jay. My LIKE button X 4. I'm about to get 1958 CONN 10M which sounds beautiful , so l'm into this type of stuff .
Thanks! Good luck with the new horn.
Wow what a beautiful sound John has, warm and creamy. Have to disagree about the separate key guards however, they always jar a bit visually for me as the double design on the VI is more pleasing (no doubt many disagree). Is this an early SBA as many examples I've seen have the double guard?
The only one that I've seen (49.×××, so 1952-53) also had a double guard...
Excellent! Many thanks to both..
Why not have key guards by low C#?. I cant' understand this, because it is expossed to damage too..
Amazing video!
Thanks
Thanks for this enjoyable and informative video. One item I did not hear addressed was weight. I have been fortunate to play a '51 SBA since junior high and recently (nearly 50 years later) switched to a Mark VI. I was curious and carefully weighed them several times on a digital scale. The Mark VI was 5 ounces heavier. Not a huge difference but noticeable to me.
i ❤️ the sound of SBA than VI but both horns play excellent
So the bore dimensions are the same?
Probably due to poor quality control. Selmers were all over the place.
One important difference: SBA range is from very good to spectacular horns. Mk VIs range is from complete dogs to spectacular. I bumped into 5 digit tenors playing like a Super Action II. An SBA tenor with a decent setup will never disappoint. A Mk Vi may.
The sad news is I had to sell my 62K MKVI and 82K MKVI both 9.5/10 condition when I got into $ trouble. The good news is I still play a 129K MVI that I have tweeked for 30yrs as a tech and pro player. and a 54K SBA I love them both equally. SBA for subtlety and complexity and VI for power and flexibility. You gentlemen both win and John does play his butt off.
Great video! 40 year pro player and sax tech here. The SBA has it on tone over the VI, no doubt about it.The VI seems tinny and nasal in comparison. larger bore means bigger sound.I'd go SBA all the way!
thanks for watching!
The earlier Mark Vl‘s had the same G#/Bb adjust mechanism as the SBA. That changed around 1965, I’d guess.
Another great video Jay! John is an excellent player and a very informative guy. For some reason it's always irked me that people refer to the Super Action as a SBA or Super Balanced Action (I used to own one). I get it that it looked close to the Balanced Action, but it wasn't marketed as such by Selmer. Anyway, just my pet peeve and it really doesn't matter in the world of saxophones. Where can one go to look at the specs on your new tenor mouthpieces and perhaps try one out? I'm primarily an alto player but I love tenor, I just can't get the sound I want, so much so that I'm thinking of selling my tenor. Any help would be appreciated.
The mouthpieces are in a few shops around the world now so it depends where you live. Click the link in the description of this video to get to the closest online dealer in your area.
Agreed. Calling the super action for super balanced action annoys me as well.
Does my Mark VI baritone get the same love as a Mark VI tenor? Is it also “among the most valued and sought after” saxophones on the market, at least compared to other baritones? If it matters, it does have the low A key.
good question. topic for another video perhaps.
John are U playing a Morgan Excalibur mouthpiece? I play one on my 95,000 Mark .
I had a question Jay… does the SBA has and needs a specific size or circumference of pads for it? Or other types of pads can be used from modern horns to it?
Is there a way to trace the history of My 1969 Factory Gold Alto SN 184xxx . I was told it was picked out at the factory by ?
Hi! Which setup do you use in this video? Sounds amazing!
Thanks for this informative video John & Jay ! I enjoyed listening to the sound John gets & musical expression of his playing ! John what mouthpiece & facing are you playing for this video?
Have you compared the latest versions to the vintage, e.g., Selmer 54 to the Mark VI, in a video? And the new version of SBA to the vintage? A lot of folks might be interested because of ergonomics and intonation that modern technology can afford. Then it would be cool to do a spectrum analysis (for identical setups) compared to auditory judgments from a couple of pros.
Thank you so much for this video. I found it very informative. I have a Selmer reference 54. Could you tell me any differences between it and a mark 6? I know the Mark 6 was used to produce the reference 54. It seems to me it's a modern version of a Mark IV.
Thanks. Love this kind of history.
Was the 3 screw G#/Bis adjustment arm lever also changed on some Mk6 altos as well as on the tenors? It's just that I have a 1957 Mk6 alto and the 3 point adjustment is attached to the main lever arm holding the pad cup.
Bonjour ! Great Video. Thanks. I have a question regarding the recording gear you are using. I am really interested in knowing what kind of recording gear you were using on this video. I am talking about that digital recorder with tripod connected to your cellphone. I used to have a zoom 2 and I find it really good and practical compared to using a daw, wich means turning on the computer, mics, cable external audio interface, etc, etc. Thanks. You sound amazing by the way ;-)
what mouthpiece were you using to play these two saxophones ?
I bouth a saxophone alto E.Is it good or is there something better to play songs?
Is there a better year where they just seemed to play better from one another🎶🎵🎷 what year was the SBA he was playing 🤔🎶🎵🎷
#7, older MVI's are on the key cup such as my 79K.
You left out that the lower stack on the SBA had adjustment screws for key height, like the top stack. Early Mk VIs had this feature as well, but most do not. I had a 56xxx Mk VI with this feature. Why the subsequent VIs did not… I can only surmise: Cost Saving… In other words, El Cheapo. It seems stupid that they kept it on the top stack but ditched it for the lower stack…
Love my 45,xxx SBA Tenor more than any of my other 6 Mark VI tenors but my 60,xxx Mark VI alto kills my 43,xxx SBA Alto. The best tenor for TONE (not ergonomics/playability) is a Series I Buescher Aristocrat, I will fight anyone on that. It has the largest neck tenon of any tenor I've owned (I own over 20 saxes) and it just sounds better than anything you throw against it, even my SBA, VI's, Super 20 Full Pearls, etc.
No wonder Trane's left hand looked goofy when he was reaching for that F key. Lol
SBA and Balanced action are the same except for the angle of the right-hand keys (BA is in-line) I think.
No, there are MANY bore, neck, international differences, even between different years of SBAs and BAs
I like SBA's better than Mark VI's personally. The best sax I've ever played (apart from the Supreme) was an SBA. I just bought a 5 digit Mark VI alto that I'm going to sell because I'm just not VI guy.
I hope you. see this but what Is the diference between sba And the BA(balance action)
Listening and the stuff is great. It seems like every horn playing clip is the SBA. Is that correct? It would be great to hear both.
Mark vi clips are later in video.
I have an 80 Super Action II. It has the same features as the VI like the forks on the side keys, the plastic thumb rests, the tilting B key on the left hand table, and the low key guards. The same day I was convinced I needed the 80, I also tried a VI. I thought the VI was very nice but not $1500 nicer.
Hey, and no engraving at all on the bell on the 80 Series II.
@@ph2738 No engraving on most French- and military-market VIs either.
What are the differences between SBA and VI altos?
SBA …🎶🎵🎷 What was the two mouth piece set ups he used🤔🎶🎵🎷
Just curious if you know if they make a brass thumb rest for the Mark VI? The plastic factory one always gives me a callus on my thumb yet when playing my other sax, Martin Committee 3 'The Martin Tenor' I have no issues since the thumb rest is made of brass.