The worst thing is to zinc plate a 12.9 bolt, especially with out correct deembrittlement which very few places manage to get right. Century heat treatment by you one of the few. Steve Morris and Driftworks both great channels as no bs and full honesty when it doesn’t quite work out.
I wouldnt worry about the 12.9 pin hardness Phil. I've looked up a couple of studies for pretty much the same reasons, because making cutoms pins out of bolts is a nice easy work around. The conclusion was that measured hardness varied very little throughout the length and diameter of the fasteners tested, with only a small decrease towards the middle of the shank. Absolutely love watching all your tinkering to perfect this beast and make it what you want and are happy with. Keep up the good work and thanks for filming as much as you manage to so we can all watch!
Yes - hardening and tempering for fasteners isn't like case hardening for things like padlock shackles - the fastener needs to be consistent all the way through for maximum quality assurance.
@@driftworks It may be worth investing in a simple file hardness testing kit, the most economical way of working out how hard something like this is. I can imagine it would come in handy in more ways that one would expect.
Ever have the voice of your parents in your ear saying ‘why did you have to mess about with it in the 1st place, there was nothing wrong with it how it was’ Or instead of the warning in an airbus cockpit saying ‘pull up’ ‘pull up’ did you hear, ‘too tight, ‘ too tight’ Ridiculously techy build, amazing attention to detail as always, can’t wait to see it on track ❤
I went the exact same path for about 8 month ago, did the same work to get bumpsteer good, and also caster that killed my electric servo. This video would helped me a lot at the moment, haha. Mega work 🔥👍
How much additional space would a dry sump pan provide? That seems like the logical next step for your build. I know it’s expensive but it will provide multiple benefits.
You could do with some 18"s on the front to give you a touch more clearance at the tie rod end, or raise the car. We know that sump is coming off again for extra clearance so you can raise the rack, again! LOL! Oh it's all good fun. :)
18's would be a real compromise for me, so I'm willing to go to pretty serious lengths to make sure that doesn't happen. Regarding the sump: The moment TH-cam pays enough for me to justify a dry sump, it's happening 😂
Hey Phil, now that I have seen the video and you when thru all of this work already, did you consider what the Silvia people do? Using something like the "OFFSET STEERING RACK EXTENDERS" gktech sells and use that to move the inner steering arm point up? Regardless hope it works out what you done 😄
We were one of the first companies to design offset rack spacers. Our design on Silvias has sold around 5000 pieces, and is what most of the other companies benchmarked and copied 👍
If you ever have a bump, the offset rack spacer can put enough force on the rack to pretty easily bend it. It also moves the pivot point outboard which in itself can cause bump steer.
E36 knuckles always are a little wonky over e30 m3 geometry…but you’ve already gone so far outside the box that probably doesn’t correlate. have you thought about measuring e30 M3 spindles or the late DTM replica spindles? Maybe it’s a better starting point for complete rebuild v4.
Someone else mentioned that above. I'd be interested to know the flaws in 36 stuff on a normal 30. But mine is so massively modifed with my own position for the front turrets, rack, lower arms, tension rods, modified lower brackets, custom arb, and coilover mount arb drop links, I can't see how what I'm doing with the E36 uprights is anything except an upgrade.
I run genuine group A front uprights on my e30 with MRT arms. You’re welcome to borrow an assembly if you’d like for some measurements. E36 front setup is a massive compromise on an e30, seems like a false economy trying to persist with it.
@@driftworks the roll centre, KPI and inner tie rod + inner control arm pickup point are still compromised despite what you’ve corrected with the dynamic toe changes. It’s worth looking at what was done on the group A e30s and the later e36s which used the same front setup.
Do you have non standard rack position and inboard lower arm mounting points? My KPI is optimised for the camber and wheel clearance required to clear the coilover spring,. Caster is perfect. Bump steer is perfect and roll centre is as good as it can get on a 17" wheel. I'm always game to learn and improve the car, but I believe the only limitation I have is the vertical rack position. I could probably get it 20mm higher with a dry sump, but that's a strong £10,000 to spend to make the car slightly better 😂
Yes my rack is raised and the control arm inner pickup point on the subframe is raised as per the dtm cars I forget the measurement but it’s a significant amount more than the rubbish system the MRT arms come with. Have you seen how the inner tie rod pickup is raised on the dtm cars? So it retains rack position but actually lifts the pickup point of the inner tie rod a decent amount. Maybe you can try apply this concept to your rack? Maybe worth considering also running 18” so you can fit more roll centre adjustment within the rim but tbh all of what you’ve done on the will work fine for most UK trackday sfuff 👍 I can send you more pics for what works well on the front.
I have. We have a lot of experience with offset rack spacers. I wouldn't use them unless I had to, as even a small impact on the wheel can easily bend a rack. I've killed a few in my lifetime. I can't raise the rack any more than it is currently, so that's the limit point. The stock outer tie rod position isn't actually what I want to use. I'd like the steering ratio to be a little quicker, so I may make my own adapter (or complete upright) that would then allow for even more roll centre and bump correction at the hub.
I'm surprised hardened bolts aren't through hardened.... That seems, well, i'm sure ther's a reason for it. I guess you could alway give it the old file test.
And I read down 5 comments to find it's already been discussed and confirmed by soemone who ACTUALLY knows what they're talking about. Ahhh, comment sections eh. Full of people like me.
It's like "can you just" really, really backfired and got outta hand quickly! On the other hand, what else can you do? It seems like you really couldn't avoid doing this.
No you're not. I did consider it, but aftermarket EPAS like DCE Motorsport is insanely expensive and still not a guarantee that it will fix the problem. I had decided that I wanted to change to mechanical PAS using a standard E92M3 rack and pump, but on further investigation there just isn't room. So this was the 'quick' and temporary solution to get the car back up and running in time for Retrorides.
@@driftworks yours is a very specific requirement haha. I guess for the longest time the E36 scene was “build as cheap as possible” so never made sense to R&D. A drop knuckle that fit under 17’s would be awesome though 🙏🏼
I know Phil knows his shit but 3.8mm of bump steer for full stroke isn’t that bad at all …. Or is this just a hunt for perfection like the rest of the build ;)
Please drop ‘thou’s’ and ‘inches’… just use metric for the love of god and headache’s everywhere other than the US and old timers in the UK who probably don’t watch TH-cam 😂 Your new digital ‘dial gauge’ will help my zen
Tight as! Could be fruity if you egg a wheel. I hate how self conscious everyone feels showing their welds on the internet - the people that complain would probably still empty their kiwis if they saw an F40 - and they have properly ugly welds.
You are brave letting your little girl hold the airline. I've had 16yr old apprentices that I would trust, half of them can't even use the broom and sweep the workshop properly.
Just to correct you thou is not some strange American measurements as I'm sure you know its the british imperial system which we still use in this country for engineering as its a more accurate measurements. So you need to get your facts right
The burden that is your endless pursuit of perfection must be crippling Phil.
Makes for great videos though so, keep it up 😅
The dedication and engineering to get this car to perfection sides with us car enthusiast. Love that one thing leads to another with you Phil.
The worst thing is to zinc plate a 12.9 bolt, especially with out correct deembrittlement which very few places manage to get right. Century heat treatment by you one of the few. Steve Morris and Driftworks both great channels as no bs and full honesty when it doesn’t quite work out.
I wouldnt worry about the 12.9 pin hardness Phil. I've looked up a couple of studies for pretty much the same reasons, because making cutoms pins out of bolts is a nice easy work around. The conclusion was that measured hardness varied very little throughout the length and diameter of the fasteners tested, with only a small decrease towards the middle of the shank.
Absolutely love watching all your tinkering to perfect this beast and make it what you want and are happy with. Keep up the good work and thanks for filming as much as you manage to so we can all watch!
Good to know. Cheers 👍
Yes - hardening and tempering for fasteners isn't like case hardening for things like padlock shackles - the fastener needs to be consistent all the way through for maximum quality assurance.
@@driftworks It may be worth investing in a simple file hardness testing kit, the most economical way of working out how hard something like this is. I can imagine it would come in handy in more ways that one would expect.
Was it because you decided to totally rebuild everything from scratch again by any chance lol
Ever have the voice of your parents in your ear saying ‘why did you have to mess about with it in the 1st place, there was nothing wrong with it how it was’
Or instead of the warning in an airbus cockpit saying ‘pull up’ ‘pull up’ did you hear, ‘too tight, ‘ too tight’
Ridiculously techy build, amazing attention to detail as always, can’t wait to see it on track ❤
Saw this at Mallory Park on Sunday - the thing sounded incredible!
Not much work with a hammer anymore, you guys are advancing well! Love the great ideas
Hammer ? You mean Birmingham Screw Driver 🤣
@@Covkiller yes! The one you dont use to fix a turbo 😉
Love the videos of you tinkering on the e30, saw it at Mallory looked and sounded awesome
Thanks 👍
I like your vids before even watching them. Just happy to see a new upload from Driftworks 👍
Appreciate it man! This is a geeky one so will no doubt get very little love 😂
My pleasure! You say geeky but this should be very educational for many and balls deep modifying as always 🤘 Great content imo
Phil- they grow up so fast, you'll wonder where the days went. Mine are grown; save the weekends for them. Trust me. Thanks
Love how the caliper is hanging around..... 😆 😆 😆
Have you thought of E30 DTM spindles from vink motorsport? They raise the wheel bearing a bit vs OEM.
It wouldn't help me. I need every bit of adjustment I've created. Otherwise the engine would have to be 2" higher.
Thank you for sharing ur knowledge about bumb steer and how things have a knock-on effect. Small insit to race cars. Like BTCC 👍
I went the exact same path for about 8 month ago, did the same work to get bumpsteer good, and also caster that killed my electric servo. This video would helped me a lot at the moment, haha. Mega work 🔥👍
Angling it down was a brilliant move!
I couldn't help but shiver seeing the calipers dangling like that, though
You and @Stanceworks with your obsession with suspension geometry vs Jay - ‘I don’t want to know’! 😂
Another wonderfully inspirational video guys.
Great stuff to watch! Good luck guys
Very educational great to watch brilliant
the insane dedication is why i love this channel👍😎
The refinement that's gone into this beast is off the scale 🙌
Edit: first 😎
Do you supply adjustable drop links?
I like using lasers when working out bum steer so you can see it. Long shot buuuut would you consider using s25 knuckles on it??
I mean s15
Whats the inside of the front wheel been rubbing on kerbs?, great vlog again
The tension rod before I moved it's mounting point by remaking the lower arm for the 4th time 😂
Nice lathing 👍
Thanks 👍
How much additional space would a dry sump pan provide? That seems like the logical next step for your build. I know it’s expensive but it will provide multiple benefits.
Isn't there a set of wheels wich will give you more room to lower the balljoint?
Only 18’s which I don’t want.
Does the car have a power steering fluid radiator?
There is no fluid. It's Epas
Could you go with a bigger set of wheels? 18" maybe and then get more space for modifications?
I could, but I don't want to. 18's are too big on an E30.
Fair enough@@driftworks
Using 18" on my E36 only because of brake size, but its a pain to get tire sizes
You could do with some 18"s on the front to give you a touch more clearance at the tie rod end, or raise the car. We know that sump is coming off again for extra clearance so you can raise the rack, again! LOL! Oh it's all good fun. :)
18's would be a real compromise for me, so I'm willing to go to pretty serious lengths to make sure that doesn't happen. Regarding the sump: The moment TH-cam pays enough for me to justify a dry sump, it's happening 😂
@@driftworks If my lottery numbers come up, I'll buy you one. 3 numbers doesn't count BTW...
Thought it was gonna need more than bump steer correction when it got a bit spicy on the brakes into Mallory hairpin…😂😂😂
And me. 😂. There's a pretty funny story behind that 'incident'. That you'll see in the next video 👍
@@driftworks awesome, looking forward to it. Cheers for bringing it to the event.👍🏻
Obviously the e36 won’t go down a similar rabbit hole…. Good work boss!
Hey Phil, now that I have seen the video and you when thru all of this work already, did you consider what the Silvia people do? Using something like the "OFFSET STEERING RACK EXTENDERS" gktech sells and use that to move the inner steering arm point up?
Regardless hope it works out what you done 😄
We were one of the first companies to design offset rack spacers. Our design on Silvias has sold around 5000 pieces, and is what most of the other companies benchmarked and copied 👍
@@driftworks ok, then why did you not use that instead?
If you ever have a bump, the offset rack spacer can put enough force on the rack to pretty easily bend it. It also moves the pivot point outboard which in itself can cause bump steer.
E36 knuckles always are a little wonky over e30 m3 geometry…but you’ve already gone so far outside the box that probably doesn’t correlate. have you thought about measuring e30 M3 spindles or the late DTM replica spindles? Maybe it’s a better starting point for complete rebuild v4.
Someone else mentioned that above. I'd be interested to know the flaws in 36 stuff on a normal 30. But mine is so massively modifed with my own position for the front turrets, rack, lower arms, tension rods, modified lower brackets, custom arb, and coilover mount arb drop links, I can't see how what I'm doing with the E36 uprights is anything except an upgrade.
I’d like to see the alignment!
We've done it a few times:
Currently running:
Front -4* camber, 8* caster, 2mm toe out total.
Rear -3* camber, 3mm toe in total.
I run genuine group A front uprights on my e30 with MRT arms. You’re welcome to borrow an assembly if you’d like for some measurements. E36 front setup is a massive compromise on an e30, seems like a false economy trying to persist with it.
I'd be interested to learn what makes the 36 uprights a compromise on an E30 with all the work I've done?
@@driftworks the roll centre, KPI and inner tie rod + inner control arm pickup point are still compromised despite what you’ve corrected with the dynamic toe changes. It’s worth looking at what was done on the group A e30s and the later e36s which used the same front setup.
Do you have non standard rack position and inboard lower arm mounting points? My KPI is optimised for the camber and wheel clearance required to clear the coilover spring,. Caster is perfect. Bump steer is perfect and roll centre is as good as it can get on a 17" wheel. I'm always game to learn and improve the car, but I believe the only limitation I have is the vertical rack position. I could probably get it 20mm higher with a dry sump, but that's a strong £10,000 to spend to make the car slightly better 😂
Yes my rack is raised and the control arm inner pickup point on the subframe is raised as per the dtm cars I forget the measurement but it’s a significant amount more than the rubbish system the MRT arms come with.
Have you seen how the inner tie rod pickup is raised on the dtm cars? So it retains rack position but actually lifts the pickup point of the inner tie rod a decent amount. Maybe you can try apply this concept to your rack?
Maybe worth considering also running 18” so you can fit more roll centre adjustment within the rim but tbh all of what you’ve done on the will work fine for most UK trackday sfuff 👍 I can send you more pics for what works well on the front.
I have. We have a lot of experience with offset rack spacers. I wouldn't use them unless I had to, as even a small impact on the wheel can easily bend a rack. I've killed a few in my lifetime.
I can't raise the rack any more than it is currently, so that's the limit point.
The stock outer tie rod position isn't actually what I want to use. I'd like the steering ratio to be a little quicker, so I may make my own adapter (or complete upright) that would then allow for even more roll centre and bump correction at the hub.
How much of this is caused by wanting the mega low ride height? Wouldn't a more sensible ride height eliminate so much of this work?
That's the easy way yes. The car would be compromised in my eyes though.
Are larger wheels an option?
I don't want to run 18's if I can help it. That would have been an easy way to solve it.
Hit the like button for Phil’s dry sump
That murica Imperial measurement system 😂👌
Can you recommend a guide, or maybe even do a video, that explains about suspension geometry and the effects on handling please? 👊🏻
" Just simply" is right up there with " can you just"...
21:55 somebody had better tell Colin Furze 😂
😄
Have you studied motorsport engineering Phil? Your geometry knowledge is
impressive
I haven't. I just enjoy the subject. I learnt most of what I know messing about with drift cars.
I thought an astra steering pump is the one drifters use its bulliet proof.
It is if you have a power steering rack. Mine is a custom Titan Engineering manual rack. There's no room for anything bigger under the engine.
saw the piece they did on your 993. late brake show?? if the people only knew how many times you tried to ''better'' that car......
I'm surprised hardened bolts aren't through hardened.... That seems, well, i'm sure ther's a reason for it. I guess you could alway give it the old file test.
And I read down 5 comments to find it's already been discussed and confirmed by soemone who ACTUALLY knows what they're talking about. Ahhh, comment sections eh. Full of people like me.
I guess this is why maths and physics classes were important. I wish I listened lol.
I didn't listen. I left school with one C grade GSCE. I can learn when I'm interested though.
It's like "can you just" really, really backfired and got outta hand quickly! On the other hand, what else can you do? It seems like you really couldn't avoid doing this.
Would this help in future builds ?
th-cam.com/video/DEw_O2iJPSY/w-d-xo.html
How would a different ECU help?
@@driftworks skip the ecu part, first 2 min or so, there’s something might help with suspension
am i insane for thinking there must be some stronger electric power steering motor out there you could have fitted instead of doing all this?
No you're not. I did consider it, but aftermarket EPAS like DCE Motorsport is insanely expensive and still not a guarantee that it will fix the problem. I had decided that I wanted to change to mechanical PAS using a standard E92M3 rack and pump, but on further investigation there just isn't room. So this was the 'quick' and temporary solution to get the car back up and running in time for Retrorides.
I think you enjoy the misery 😂 I'd of started all over again by now 😅
All sounds like an excuse to make the E36 Geomaster drop knuckle I’ve wanted for 6+ years lol
I want to make one. Mine wouldn't be much use to most other people though 😂
@@driftworks yours is a very specific requirement haha. I guess for the longest time the E36 scene was “build as cheap as possible” so never made sense to R&D. A drop knuckle that fit under 17’s would be awesome though 🙏🏼
I know Phil knows his shit but 3.8mm of bump steer for full stroke isn’t that bad at all …. Or is this just a hunt for perfection like the rest of the build ;)
That was over 1" . I'm of the mind that if it can be better then ultimately I have to make it better.
@@driftworks oh my bad thought it was from top to bottom of travel
Please drop ‘thou’s’ and ‘inches’… just use metric for the love of god and headache’s everywhere other than the US and old timers in the UK who probably don’t watch TH-cam 😂
Your new digital ‘dial gauge’ will help my zen
I'm right there with you. Antiquated shit be gone.
Tight as! Could be fruity if you egg a wheel. I hate how self conscious everyone feels showing their welds on the internet - the people that complain would probably still empty their kiwis if they saw an F40 - and they have properly ugly welds.
I've seen Lamborghini factory chassis welds years back and those were shocking.
Jay does need to wear his ear defenders - how's he going to enjoy listening to all his jungle records if he's deaf?
And I thought I knew about cars 😅
You are brave letting your little girl hold the airline. I've had 16yr old apprentices that I would trust, half of them can't even use the broom and sweep the workshop properly.
Just to correct you thou is not some strange American measurements as I'm sure you know its the british imperial system which we still use in this country for engineering as its a more accurate measurements.
So you need to get your facts right
I thought it was pretty damn obvious that I'm joking. Obviously not 😂
Defo need to put normal lights on the back I know it’s a track car and it doesn’t matter but they’d look a million times better
Wrong.