I think a big part of this is the arguably inconsistent design philosophy over the game's lifespan. As a new-ish player, the difference is apparent. It seems like all the old frames fall into the classic RPG class format, while the new ones are built like swiss knives. They seem to have gone from specialization to generalization, from team comps to self sufficiency, from roles to themes. This creates a playing field that'll never even out unless all the older frames acquire the same self sufficiency, because all the new ones can already do what they did, but also do much more.
I get where you're coming from, though my top frames are not representative of that claim. I'm not sure how new you are, but current "end game" builds make a load out into a swiss army, not the frame solely. For example, saryn, mesa, volt, rhino, octavia and many others are all very relevant in current content and their kits have not changed significantly over the years. Also, in my personal opinion, I've never thought ash was anything great. I've been playing since 2016 and even through updates that have broken his kit (in a good way) he's never been a top performer.
@@explodingpenguin354 i can't entirely disagree with that. There's definitely big exceptions. I use Saryn and Mesa a fair bit myself. You're right about the loadout thing, Fortifier, Outburst and all, but I guess I was mostly just considering the frames' base kits independently, all else equal. Tbh, I wasn't around back then (started 2024) so I wouldn't know if ash was ever that great, but I love the theme. Ya know...close combat, stealth focused frame. Besides, can't hurt to have one serviceable ninja in a game about space ninjas ; )
@@dank-bongripper9836 tbh, I just repurposed him by replacing Teleport with WA. I like using him in cascades. Keep combo up with 4, strip with 1, WA with 3. It's more fun than it is effective though.
Speaking of his down fall .. I miss the one click carnage cutscenes .... Ash was dps and crowd control coz he crowd controlled the map by straight up shanking everyone
@@Bagszszs Yeah I know but it is way more buggy and nowhere near the same. It used to look so epic, and now half the hits are him just making an awkward swing. It really hits different..... :{
Ye I do agree all older warframe needed that rework really quick, a nice touch like trin or nova is super great. But I don't think ash would get it anytime soon, at least until all other older warframe got them first.
I really want to enjoy blade storm but without the savage silence build it just doenst do enough damage on it's own. Ash in general needs another rework
ash is so stealthy that his kills from bladestorm dont even count in the stats. its the dumbest thing ever. i will stack a molt augment fully and the stats will show like 65 kills. its ridiculous
Funny i catch this video after trying to mess around with Ash again. I even tried messing around with a tank build for him, just to try to make him fresh. But still...just not really feeling him rn.
I have been an ash main since Warframe first came out on PlayStation. I remember when he first got blade storm nerfed, then when the elements got reworked he copped a fair nerf. Being that he was one of the first 10 frames unfortunately it's understandable that he has fallen behind with the power ramp.. kullervo is currently my main until I can get ash running on all cylinders again.. but I believe that reworking him would not be too hard... Add guaranteed viral on shurikens and increase the number of shurikens. Double the duration of smoke and add the augment to its kit.. turn normal teleport into fatal teleport (without using the mod) and return his blade storm back to its original form including true damage (rather than just slash as it no longer works the way it used to).. and make his passive more aggressive on the slash boost while he is invisible as to blend better with his theme. Just my opinion tho as I have loved using him for many years..
As a fellow Ash main, This is a very well done video and i can’t disagree with anything you said. He is fundamentally in need of some love. However, i am currently on my 5th fully invested ash prime because i find his smoke screen plus helminth abilities makes him insanely versatile(yes you could argue this would work with loki too). With the new companion rework i have relegated shuriken to be my hunter command ability to make sure my pet is always attacking who i want him to. Teleport is your free helminth slot but you can also easily helminth bladestorm for precision intensify to buff helminth abilities even more. I have found a ton of really really enjoyable helminth builds with ash. He still has one of the highest base EHP’s out of the majority of frames which means you can make him quite tanky and has really respectable speed so you can make him a speedster. And while i did hate his invis being so short, with primed continuity, energy nexus and energy siphon you can essentially spam invis infinitely and you’ll never run out of energy so it’s really not a big deal for most of my builds. Regardless, yes, he needs to be reworked, but i still think he has a lot of playability and fun use cases when you introduce helminth into the mix!
I thought I was crazy when I was redoing my Ash builds and getting frustrated cause it felt like every ability besides invis was just a subsume slot. I remember having fun playing Ash way back in the day but now he just feels like a slog.
Only if they made him one of the members of 1999 would we see a sick ass rework. I’m sending this video to DE to cause awareness because as an Ash main my heart hurts right now.
Ash main here and I share your sentiment of still playing him. I have no trouble with him in SP but I don’t understand why DE silently nerfed him taking away the statstick and capped the speed of bladestorm at 50%. He is already trailing far behind most frames. And his 4 doesn’t even work on some normal enemies. Seriously hope he gets a proper rework worthy of that awesome backstory again soon 🥷
A year ago Pablo said in a video that they will be doing away with stat sticks altogether. They did not give any ETA because obviously they were already looking out for 1999 update at that point. I wonder though if Ash needs a rework or simply tweaks? On one hand the fact that his 4th is reactive means he is slower than more modern Warframes. On the other hand it's a fire and forget type an ability which means you can mark enemies and then focus on non-marked enemies while Ash clones do the work. So imagine if you would that Ash would get more clones, they'd be faster and Bladestorm would do 10x the damage than it does now. Fix all the issues in targeting, give his Smoke more duration, maybe give his 3 some additional effect like refreshing Smoke with reduced cost, and give his 1st more damage as well. I think with numbers tweaks and light reworks he could live up to par and this is simply because his kit already has potential. Problem isn't so much his kit but his outdated numbers.
seems with every update they either make or brake ash, with the release of duviri, melee mods like condition overload and faction mods now affected ash and with incarnon like the innodem, bladestorme became very good. But now it seems like those mods don't effect it as far as i've been able to test rendering it even more useless
Agree with ash is that Fatal Teleport is built into his teleport like Stalker except it is a tap hold ability to choose if you want to teleport and perform finisher or not. The Augment would instead extend the duration of Smokescreen when active by ### seconds, this is effected by ability duration. This would be similar to Hysteria augment for Valkyr Agree shuriken should have armor strip augment built in and for the augment, what if it turns the Shuriken to a Glaive that bounces around similar to Nezha halo but it doesn't duplicate like nezha but instead applies slash and the armor strip. Agree with everything stated about bladestorm a large range cone and every enemy gets a shadow clone instead of 3 shadow clones hopping around. I am hopping to address these ideas to DE in 2025 Tennocon when I go for my 5th visit again and speak to Pablo in person about the tweaks. I bet he will have some form of a rework before Protoframe Ash comes out for the next set of Protoframes that continue 1999 story later on. Just like Nyx and Trinity tweaks
Ash main here also but the changes i want with him will be more focus on finisher since hes an assasin. Passive boost his finishers damage. 1 will shoot 2 shurikens that bounces off to enemies and strip 70% armor (boosted with str). Augment would be boost to how many enemies it can bounces to and can now affect shield. 2. Just same. im satisfed with it. 3. Fatal teleport should be same with stalker it will do finisher on its own and augment will boost its damage and crit on teleported enemies. 4. Mark enemies that will now be vulnerable to damage. Yea just that but if 3 is used on marked enemies it will now use fatal teleport on all marked enemies. Augment will now boost his slash (5%) and finishers damage (25%) for 20 sec if the marked enemies is killed and will stack with each kills. Capped at 20. His 4th has same mechanics but now it changes to be toggled off/on What do you guys think?
I LOVE the vulnerability and it synergizing with fatal teleport idea! Yea the passive boosting finisher damage the same as status damage as a final multiplier would also be amazing, and yes the bounce idea for shuriken is also amazing and the augment then affecting shields, yes yes all perfect! Love it!
@@morning8590 thanks for the feedback 😇. I really love ash but his kit is just lame tbh. When i use him all i do is just smoke screen all the time and kill enemies with aoe weapon. Cant even find the reason to use shuriken even with augment. Fatal teleport with fatal in the name and doesnt even do thing other than teleporting. Lame ass 4th that my weapon do better than it. Hope de rework him asap 😩
Make him uniquw by having an internal bleed mechanic 'hemeriging' internal components, dash/slice through enemies could trigger this. Kinda like slash but make it more powerful than slash. Hemerage would make enemy slow and drowsy until they bleed out, would fit his lore too. Increase his stealth. He also won't need armor strip because of Hemerage
Totally agree I think it's a joke that the character more worthy of being called ninja is so inefficient even investing a lot of resources and time it's not bad but leaves a lot to be desired. Don’t lose the faith bro you’re not alone and for sure DE someday will do something about this
Ash isnt even bad right now tbh, but you need his augments on any of his abilities for them to do literally anything useful besides smokescreen. Savage silence ash is still pretty awesome
I love ash but bladestorm really is way too slow. I mean just look at what a properly build dante does to a group of enemies, boom gone. They should implement a similar synergy with his 1 and 4, prime and detonate.
Hear me out, the number of shuriken thrown, and the number of clones during bladestorm should scale with combo multiplier. Makes his 1 have more aoe, and his 4 faster, fixing the two biggest issues he has
Wow Morning legit ranked up on this video w/ massive stat increase on content scripting, editing, audio and effects. Upgraded my membership immediately. 10/10 video and I don't even play Ash
Well, first of all thanks for the video, especially the lore and the story behind one of my 2 fav frames. Good job on your editing effort as well! Said that, i am a relative new player ( around 6 months or so ) and i LOVE Ash, mainly for its look / theme and the power fantasy that let me explore, i m ALWAYS for invisibility in every game, i love DoT in general and i am an huge fan of Zed from League, so... At this point of the game i clearly see why and how his kit needs a rework and this video just confirm my thoughts in details. But still......there is something with playing ash SOLO that is exciting to me. His invisibility, even that weaker than others, i prefer it over any other invisibility. Simple, effective, no particular limitations. Can't say more about the rest of the abilities, because as you said, like...there is some no-sense in there. I use lot of different helminths to stay in the theme and creating something funny...without caring too much about min maxing. I truly hope that this frame will get a proper rework that enhances his style, theme, in a way that allow creativity and flexibility to embrace the proper space ninja vibes.
Glad you enjoyed :) He is really fun solo I agree, his invisibility animation is really smooth allowing you to cast it while moving/shooting/reloading/rolling etc etc no limitations, loki for example gets completely animation locked when casting his, so that maybe why it feels so good to you, and I fully agree, the un inhibited invis is really nice!
@@morning8590 Yes, it's smooth and stylish, like every ninja should be :) I have a very weird build ( one of many ) with wyrd scythes over his 3, where i literally bullet jump and while mid air i cast Shadow + throw Scythes + throw Shurikens + mark enemies with 4, all of this WHILE charging my bow shots, releasing them...rinse and repeat in a very rapid pace due base duration ( yes forcing my self to smash the keyboards ) I do break my fingers and it's obviously NON-SENSE in term of min-maxing for lvl cap content or whatever....but damn bro i feel sooooo cool doing all those shmoooooves :D At the end of the day, it's about having fun!
Its possible now with literally any frame. Try the savage silence augment with him. It scales his 4 like crazy and nukes (animations make it a slower nuke, but it 1 shots for a long time)
I still see a lot of ash in Cascade so I didn't know. I guess it really was the logical move to remove my 4 yellow tau shards from him which was more useful on my other frames.
Theres a lot of tenno who didnt get to see the real ash in his prime time, but the old ones we know why they change it but in the current state of the game theres a couple things not only about ash but other frames too that just doesnt seem to give that much benefit like why i would use teleport with 10 eximus around just look at the loki switch augment that sht can work on everything and stil give inmunity and still having a longer invi duration compared to ash its not that overall one is better than the other but those little things can be a completely change in gameplay or building wise. Hopefully we can expect good result about the nyx and trinity rework, frames desperate for it but still i would like a big patch QoL for improve the gameplay of a lot of wf not big reworks, just small changes like ash shuriken numbers scaling with power strenght and putting that armor strip into the ability, baruuk building combo with waves(well exca too right), loki new passive, equinox scaling, banshee 4th, something like this if u get my idea. I like the sense ov variety that the game has but for old players feels like with each new wf they leave like 10 away who just need small changes to be more reliable in coop gameplay, just look at the new calibans sentient wrath and look all the things that a second ability gives u and look again into ash shuriken with augment and all the power, a single ability that cant perform well if ur not the host and thats the same for caliban 1st too if u want to compare between first abilities idk, that just an opinion ive been thinking around since the last reworks but let me know what u think
I don't know if it helps, but molt efficiency, primed continuity, and fatal teleport make stealth last more then long enough for me, i subsumed shuriken for wrathful advance, and trivialized energy via energy nexus, along with a coaction drift doubling my dreamers bond, my final arcane choice fell on steadfast because I just love zipping around using wrathful, amar's hatred port, and bladestorm/ fatal teleport, I can safely say it has yet to fail me.
Additionally i used a rakta dark dagger at the time for energy and overshields, but traded that in for the Okina Prime's incarnon shenanigans, hope these suggestions help
may Pablo's hands bless this frame may his 1 be changed into his current 4, so he can spawn up to 3 shadows to stab at marked enemies. may his 2 turn all his attacks into stealth ones and bypass the whole alertness state and synergize with his new 1. may his 3 be a mixture of substitution and teleportation, in wich he drags a marked enemy and leaves him in his place to receive all fatal damage taken while the mark is active on the enemy, and his teleportation be recasteable so he canchain teleports for longer and faster traversals. may his ultimate ability be a AoE burst of shadows that target neargy enemies within the range of the ability, removing agro from ash and allies and diverting it to th eenemies marked by the shadows attacks, these shadows should execute a single attack per enemy and chain up to two additional enemies on the edge of th emaximum range of the initial ability cast. may his shadows have an exalted dual daggerthat will enable ash to use any other melee type independently to his shadows, yet allow the exalted dual daggers to use melee arcanes as well. may these prayers be echoed by Ash mains all over the orogin system and the rngels drive our plees to Pablo's ears... Amen
They nerfed him in old warframe he use to just need to hold 4 and auto teleport and do kills but muh that's too powerful if he had not been touched he would have aged like wine with the current game but nope. A revert would be nice also armor is not nearly has hard as the game use to be armor strip use to be amazing and available through only augments now if a frame doesn't armor strip thry are irrelevant
Ash is my most played frame even though I have not used him in years. Either bring back the original blade storm or make it better. The game has evolved enough to handle the true power of Ash once again.
Ash is really one of the worst Warframes currently, and I say this as a player who only plays with him. I do all the game content with him, I've spent absurd amounts of resources trying to make him good, and it still isn't enough. I really wish they'd do a complete rework of his ability kit. If they at least changed Shuriken to fire multiple guided projectiles with Slash damage, and made Blade Storm an instakill ability once you mark enemies, it would be perfect for him. I know his invisibility is short and his teleport is useless, but those two abilities might just need smaller improvements compared to the others I mentioned.
Currently, I can only use him with Nourish, Glaive Prime, and the two augments for Smoke Screen and Blade Storm, because that's the only way I can deal enough damage with high crits.
@@jpmorgan6146 My current build is quite inspired by hers, and yes, she is really good, especially because of the dual Toxocyst. But I had to completely discard the way Morning set up the Mods and Archon Shards on Ash; he used 3 blue shards and 2 green ones. I found it more useful to use 2 purple Tau, 2 red Tau, and 1 blue Tau, because in combination with Primed Flow, I can reach 502 Energy and make use of the two purple Shards. The only thing I'm missing is an Arcane Fury to make the Glaive consistently hit red crits. But I have a lot of trouble keeping the Melee Crescendo to the max since killing with Blade Storm in a group with 3 other players makes it almost impossible, but in solo runs, it's pretty easy. So in the end, it's a great build
@@jpmorgan6146 yeah thats the purpose of the 2 green shards, but I like using more the glaive than the toxocyst so thats why i use 2 purple and 2 red with more critical damage. But if you like to use more de toxocyst o just recommend use 1 Tau blue shard than 3 normal ones because you can save 2 slots to boost your crit damage or something else
I think something fun they could do with augments or a rework is have his smoke bombs have cloud AoE that stays for it’s duration and enemies who pass through it get marked by his 4th, augment could be Caltrops in smoke so they take slash procs while in smoke. His 3rd NEEDS something to make it worth using at all, currently kullervo teleport is better in every way. Could make it so enemies with a slash proc killed by his 3rd Instil terror on enemies around opening them up for finishers by clones when using his 3rd His 1st needs so much done to it. Passive Armour strip is a must. Either bounce between enemies or throw many more, could scale with range or strength. Needs more damage, and could be much better if thrown in a long cone infront of him and 360 mid air.
There are days where I'd like to go back to our old system....where we could just setup our mods/forma & weapons then clear everything, vs now where we have to grind out all the new stuff to keep our gear relevant to the current state of play.
Ash isnt even terrible though. He barely needs any changes. Shuriken should armor strip without the augment and his 4 should have faster animations or at least allow more than one shadow clone at a time. The only weakness i see is his 4 is slow. Savage silence over his 1 and his 4 kills for a very long time
Ash is still my go to over any tank frame his smoked shadow augment for 150% crit chance over anything is pretty great plus his slash passive , stealth is also top tier defensive skill that I think ppl sleep on .
I'm glad I'm not the only one noticing this. I used to main ash 90 percent of the time. Now I cant remember a single mission i use him the past year. They really need to do something to blade storm, idk make it like some pseudo exalted like Khora's Whipclaw where the weapon scaling drastically increase's it's damage
Despite all kit inconsistencies, Ash is still the top of the food chain. Every frame with invisibility without downtime is and Ash also brings 150% weapon crit "passively". Like, yes, ofc in that niche Octavia will forever be unbeaten (sadly), but just because of the pure freedom of modding and easy unconstrained invisibility he is by default the top of them. Until invisibility gets reworked (as in completely destroyed as it should be), he will forever be the easiest and most useful level cap frame, especially for people who want to learn the game modes and need the baby wheels to get there. Another great example of this is Loki. He is literally one of the best level cap frames and he doesn't even have any other useful ability outside of invisiblity (and optionally on top of that Safeguard Switch, which is insane overkille being invulnerable on top of invisible for a waaay to overtuned scaling duration). Just compare this to any other warframe, who has to stay alive with shieldgating, movement, CC (as in actually playing the game and not disabling enemy AI), etc. you name it, 98% of all other frames basically. Invisiblity and Invincibility are breaking the game on a fundamental level and unless they are fixed (which they are probably never), discussions like this are sadly absurd.
seems like warframes were specialised in their roles back then, today we have "support" frames like Jade. Powercreep is real, and it sucks that DE prefers to mostly rework frames that have a new/ upcoming skin for sale. I guess you can expect an Ash rework when his heirloom drops
I don't think they care atm how strong she is, because of low play rate, its like octavia about 2 years ago, no one was really playing her, but her rate has gone up a lot the last year or so and no nerf yet, but equinox still has a very low play rate, so she is probably safe for quite a while :)
Old frames aren't likely to see reworks. Too much being injected into the new breed which is what's selling prime access, skins and other things. It's just the reality. Not like Excalibur or mag or frost or any of the other early frames are getting huge shifts.
Personally I still Iike to play his gimmick build, using Arcane Trickery, his 4 and a subsumed Silence, it deals with Steel Path Duviri pretty easily, no weapons needed if you roll weapons you don't like/use. In start chart, I guess he's not great...
Honestly doesn’t even really need a rework Just buffs or I guess probably with this community call it a soft rework? He just needs more numbers and he will probably be more than fine to be honest. His kit isn’t clunky or unfun just is underwhelming compared to the rest of the cast
Ash has always been my main and even though his kit is literally just a single ability and it's augment at this point, I think it's hard to justify him getting a rework over other frames. Just due to how strong an unconditional 150% crit chance + invisibility is. He can still make most weapons red crit with ease. There have been other frames that can't even stand on their own two feet while Ash can dance circles around level cap enemies. It's just unfortunately such a one dimensional play style
0:16 nah you’re joking he’s average maybe a tiny bit lagging but not one of the worst With Valkyr, Limbo, Garuda, and Inaros even after his rework is still ass, Ash clears these losers and Loki but you’re not a loser Triburos.
Meh, he is still my goat. Free critical chance for my weapon and invis all i need to have fun in this game. Riven rolls suddnely become cheaper with him, critical damage and multi shot. Good to go
ash main here, i hav no problem about it, with the intro of helmenth, i hav tons of builds tat make ash even more stronger..my only complaint is only his survivability is weak, tat needs to buff......just dont be discouraged...ash's passive is still reliable if u kniw how to build him well....
a short tale of ash?! bro that was 8 minutes i think ur confusing his kit with the game evolving over time also not every frame needs to nuke everything we have enough of those already the true frame thats had a down fall is loki
@@morning8590 bro looking at a profile pic I haven't changed in years lmaooooo go play ash man he's great in endurance, I get people not liking him outside of that but if you use him where he performs (level capping and high damage weapons platforming), then you won't have issues, good job on trying to insult who you thought was a kid on something opinionated instead of using facts or objective truth 😂😂😂
I think this is a bit overdramatised. Competition catching up does not diminish Ashs ability to do what he did before. And while I agree that all of his abilities are pretty mediocre on their own, their combination one a single frame still is just really convenient - his teleport being so bad is not even that much of a thing, because it gives you a helminth-slot without losing out on anything.
They deliberately sabotaged Ash because he was they best alpha male frame in the game. It’s toxic feminism from Warframe devs. The feminine representation in Warframe is 90% to male 10% Completely unfair and unequal when it is done on the expense of male representation in Warframe. This has been gradually getting worse over the past 10yrs.
I think a big part of this is the arguably inconsistent design philosophy over the game's lifespan. As a new-ish player, the difference is apparent. It seems like all the old frames fall into the classic RPG class format, while the new ones are built like swiss knives. They seem to have gone from specialization to generalization, from team comps to self sufficiency, from roles to themes. This creates a playing field that'll never even out unless all the older frames acquire the same self sufficiency, because all the new ones can already do what they did, but also do much more.
I get where you're coming from, though my top frames are not representative of that claim. I'm not sure how new you are, but current "end game" builds make a load out into a swiss army, not the frame solely. For example, saryn, mesa, volt, rhino, octavia and many others are all very relevant in current content and their kits have not changed significantly over the years. Also, in my personal opinion, I've never thought ash was anything great. I've been playing since 2016 and even through updates that have broken his kit (in a good way) he's never been a top performer.
He used to excel in endurance runs and was one of my toppicks. now he's overshadowed even in this regard
@@explodingpenguin354 i can't entirely disagree with that. There's definitely big exceptions. I use Saryn and Mesa a fair bit myself. You're right about the loadout thing, Fortifier, Outburst and all, but I guess I was mostly just considering the frames' base kits independently, all else equal. Tbh, I wasn't around back then (started 2024) so I wouldn't know if ash was ever that great, but I love the theme. Ya know...close combat, stealth focused frame. Besides, can't hurt to have one serviceable ninja in a game about space ninjas ; )
@@dank-bongripper9836 tbh, I just repurposed him by replacing Teleport with WA. I like using him in cascades. Keep combo up with 4, strip with 1, WA with 3. It's more fun than it is effective though.
@@kautilya1991 You know what... this build seems interesting and good enough. Like a pre-kullervo kullervo. I'd try that
Speaking of his down fall .. I miss the one click carnage cutscenes .... Ash was dps and crowd control coz he crowd controlled the map by straight up shanking everyone
YESS dude, goddamn those were such fun times, I usually played with him solo because ppl often got annoyed by his ability but he was legit so much fun
Agreed those cutscenes I have missed ever since they were removed.
You can still do the cutscene thing if you do fatal teleport after your 4
@@Bagszszs Yeah I know but it is way more buggy and nowhere near the same. It used to look so epic, and now half the hits are him just making an awkward swing. It really hits different..... :{
Ye I do agree all older warframe needed that rework really quick, a nice touch like trin or nova is super great. But I don't think ash would get it anytime soon, at least until all other older warframe got them first.
I really want to enjoy blade storm but without the savage silence build it just doenst do enough damage on it's own. Ash in general needs another rework
ash is so stealthy that his kills from bladestorm dont even count in the stats. its the dumbest thing ever. i will stack a molt augment fully and the stats will show like 65 kills. its ridiculous
Funny i catch this video after trying to mess around with Ash again. I even tried messing around with a tank build for him, just to try to make him fresh. But still...just not really feeling him rn.
I have been an ash main since Warframe first came out on PlayStation. I remember when he first got blade storm nerfed, then when the elements got reworked he copped a fair nerf. Being that he was one of the first 10 frames unfortunately it's understandable that he has fallen behind with the power ramp.. kullervo is currently my main until I can get ash running on all cylinders again.. but I believe that reworking him would not be too hard... Add guaranteed viral on shurikens and increase the number of shurikens. Double the duration of smoke and add the augment to its kit.. turn normal teleport into fatal teleport (without using the mod) and return his blade storm back to its original form including true damage (rather than just slash as it no longer works the way it used to).. and make his passive more aggressive on the slash boost while he is invisible as to blend better with his theme. Just my opinion tho as I have loved using him for many years..
As a fellow Ash main, This is a very well done video and i can’t disagree with anything you said. He is fundamentally in need of some love. However, i am currently on my 5th fully invested ash prime because i find his smoke screen plus helminth abilities makes him insanely versatile(yes you could argue this would work with loki too). With the new companion rework i have relegated shuriken to be my hunter command ability to make sure my pet is always attacking who i want him to. Teleport is your free helminth slot but you can also easily helminth bladestorm for precision intensify to buff helminth abilities even more. I have found a ton of really really enjoyable helminth builds with ash. He still has one of the highest base EHP’s out of the majority of frames which means you can make him quite tanky and has really respectable speed so you can make him a speedster. And while i did hate his invis being so short, with primed continuity, energy nexus and energy siphon you can essentially spam invis infinitely and you’ll never run out of energy so it’s really not a big deal for most of my builds. Regardless, yes, he needs to be reworked, but i still think he has a lot of playability and fun use cases when you introduce helminth into the mix!
I thought I was crazy when I was redoing my Ash builds and getting frustrated cause it felt like every ability besides invis was just a subsume slot. I remember having fun playing Ash way back in the day but now he just feels like a slog.
Ok as a ash main I hate to say I agree
Only if they made him one of the members of 1999 would we see a sick ass rework. I’m sending this video to DE to cause awareness because as an Ash main my heart hurts right now.
Ash main here and I share your sentiment of still playing him. I have no trouble with him in SP but I don’t understand why DE silently nerfed him taking away the statstick and capped the speed of bladestorm at 50%. He is already trailing far behind most frames. And his 4 doesn’t even work on some normal enemies. Seriously hope he gets a proper rework worthy of that awesome backstory again soon 🥷
A year ago Pablo said in a video that they will be doing away with stat sticks altogether. They did not give any ETA because obviously they were already looking out for 1999 update at that point. I wonder though if Ash needs a rework or simply tweaks? On one hand the fact that his 4th is reactive means he is slower than more modern Warframes. On the other hand it's a fire and forget type an ability which means you can mark enemies and then focus on non-marked enemies while Ash clones do the work.
So imagine if you would that Ash would get more clones, they'd be faster and Bladestorm would do 10x the damage than it does now. Fix all the issues in targeting, give his Smoke more duration, maybe give his 3 some additional effect like refreshing Smoke with reduced cost, and give his 1st more damage as well. I think with numbers tweaks and light reworks he could live up to par and this is simply because his kit already has potential. Problem isn't so much his kit but his outdated numbers.
seems with every update they either make or brake ash, with the release of duviri, melee mods like condition overload and faction mods now affected ash and with incarnon like the innodem, bladestorme became very good. But now it seems like those mods don't effect it as far as i've been able to test rendering it even more useless
Yea they are very hot and cold with him sadly, bladestorm is just not worth covering in detail anymore cause it changes every 2nd month 😅
Ah old ash 4 abitity
Yes!
Couldn’t agree more, and thank you for taking the time to make this vid!!!!
Agree with ash is that Fatal Teleport is built into his teleport like Stalker except it is a tap hold ability to choose if you want to teleport and perform finisher or not.
The Augment would instead extend the duration of Smokescreen when active by ### seconds, this is effected by ability duration. This would be similar to Hysteria augment for Valkyr
Agree shuriken should have armor strip augment built in and for the augment, what if it turns the Shuriken to a Glaive that bounces around similar to Nezha halo but it doesn't duplicate like nezha but instead applies slash and the armor strip.
Agree with everything stated about bladestorm a large range cone and every enemy gets a shadow clone instead of 3 shadow clones hopping around.
I am hopping to address these ideas to DE in 2025 Tennocon when I go for my 5th visit again and speak to Pablo in person about the tweaks. I bet he will have some form of a rework before Protoframe Ash comes out for the next set of Protoframes that continue 1999 story later on. Just like Nyx and Trinity tweaks
Ash main here also but the changes i want with him will be more focus on finisher since hes an assasin.
Passive boost his finishers damage.
1 will shoot 2 shurikens that bounces off to enemies and strip 70% armor (boosted with str). Augment would be boost to how many enemies it can bounces to and can now affect shield.
2. Just same. im satisfed with it.
3. Fatal teleport should be same with stalker it will do finisher on its own and augment will boost its damage and crit on teleported enemies.
4. Mark enemies that will now be vulnerable to damage. Yea just that but if 3 is used on marked enemies it will now use fatal teleport on all marked enemies. Augment will now boost his slash (5%) and finishers damage (25%) for 20 sec if the marked enemies is killed and will stack with each kills. Capped at 20.
His 4th has same mechanics but now it changes to be toggled off/on
What do you guys think?
I’ll add that the finisher it does on marked enemies is much faster than normal ..
I LOVE the vulnerability and it synergizing with fatal teleport idea! Yea the passive boosting finisher damage the same as status damage as a final multiplier would also be amazing, and yes the bounce idea for shuriken is also amazing and the augment then affecting shields, yes yes all perfect! Love it!
@@morning8590 thanks for the feedback 😇. I really love ash but his kit is just lame tbh. When i use him all i do is just smoke screen all the time and kill enemies with aoe weapon. Cant even find the reason to use shuriken even with augment. Fatal teleport with fatal in the name and doesnt even do thing other than teleporting. Lame ass 4th that my weapon do better than it. Hope de rework him asap 😩
DE really wanted to make my man a "Wheel Chair Prime", that stare in silence made me cry btw 15:42
Make him uniquw by having an internal bleed mechanic 'hemeriging' internal components, dash/slice through enemies could trigger this. Kinda like slash but make it more powerful than slash. Hemerage would make enemy slow and drowsy until they bleed out, would fit his lore too. Increase his stealth. He also won't need armor strip because of Hemerage
Yea exactly, like give him a damage vulnerability for slash, like what you mentioned, make it separate to status damage atleast
Totally agree I think it's a joke that the character more worthy of being called ninja is so inefficient even investing a lot of resources and time it's not bad but leaves a lot to be desired. Don’t lose the faith bro you’re not alone and for sure DE someday will do something about this
the sad thing is, you can get quiver on every frame and that invis is better than ashes invis, so every frame is a better ash with a subsume lol
Harsh is ash's life. 😢
But I still love ash boyy❤
I Feel like they could rework him And loki at the same time...
Ash isnt even bad right now tbh, but you need his augments on any of his abilities for them to do literally anything useful besides smokescreen. Savage silence ash is still pretty awesome
I love ash but bladestorm really is way too slow. I mean just look at what a properly build dante does to a group of enemies, boom gone. They should implement a similar synergy with his 1 and 4, prime and detonate.
For me, Octavia's metronome is probably the best stealth ability in the game. Long duration, buff melee damage/multishot/speed
rip smok screen
Hear me out, the number of shuriken thrown, and the number of clones during bladestorm should scale with combo multiplier.
Makes his 1 have more aoe, and his 4 faster, fixing the two biggest issues he has
DE need to see this :)
ash is also my favourite warframe and its sad that hes only above average now. hes still usable but not op
Nyx main here, my condolences for you favorite warframe being now worse than mine...
Nyx is not liked, but the warframe is solid. Just 4 desperately needs a rework.
@@InnocentiusLacrimosa its not solid at all
@@whentheuh great CC + full defense strip
@@InnocentiusLacrimosa idk where the 'great' is coming from but indeed her abilities have the properties of defense reduction and crowd control
Nyx as never been bad, people had only skill issue with her, she is really fun, and if u manage the energy you are immortal and a nuke
Wow Morning legit ranked up on this video w/ massive stat increase on content scripting, editing, audio and effects. Upgraded my membership immediately. 10/10 video and I don't even play Ash
They could change his 4 to make his clones execute all nearby enemies instead of having to tag them, at least it would make him a decent nuker
He would probably not get that much of range if they do it,because it uses melees to do his damage
Well, first of all thanks for the video, especially the lore and the story behind one of my 2 fav frames.
Good job on your editing effort as well!
Said that, i am a relative new player ( around 6 months or so ) and i LOVE Ash, mainly for its look / theme and the power fantasy that let me explore, i m ALWAYS for invisibility in every game, i love DoT in general and i am an huge fan of Zed from League, so...
At this point of the game i clearly see why and how his kit needs a rework and this video just confirm my thoughts in details.
But still......there is something with playing ash SOLO that is exciting to me.
His invisibility, even that weaker than others, i prefer it over any other invisibility. Simple, effective, no particular limitations.
Can't say more about the rest of the abilities, because as you said, like...there is some no-sense in there.
I use lot of different helminths to stay in the theme and creating something funny...without caring too much about min maxing.
I truly hope that this frame will get a proper rework that enhances his style, theme, in a way that allow creativity and flexibility to embrace the proper space ninja vibes.
Glad you enjoyed :) He is really fun solo I agree, his invisibility animation is really smooth allowing you to cast it while moving/shooting/reloading/rolling etc etc no limitations, loki for example gets completely animation locked when casting his, so that maybe why it feels so good to you, and I fully agree, the un inhibited invis is really nice!
@@morning8590 Yes, it's smooth and stylish, like every ninja should be :)
I have a very weird build ( one of many ) with wyrd scythes over his 3, where i literally bullet jump and while mid air i cast Shadow + throw Scythes + throw Shurikens + mark enemies with 4, all of this WHILE charging my bow shots, releasing them...rinse and repeat in a very rapid pace due base duration ( yes forcing my self to smash the keyboards )
I do break my fingers and it's obviously NON-SENSE in term of min-maxing for lvl cap content or whatever....but damn bro i feel sooooo cool doing all those shmoooooves :D
At the end of the day, it's about having fun!
Do Loki next!
Can you make a video on how to make Ash posible for Circuit and/or Deep Archimedea with all new changes?
Its possible now with literally any frame. Try the savage silence augment with him. It scales his 4 like crazy and nukes (animations make it a slower nuke, but it 1 shots for a long time)
Killer fashion he has tho!
goosebumps from the narration sheeeesh
I still see a lot of ash in Cascade so I didn't know. I guess it really was the logical move to remove my 4 yellow tau shards from him which was more useful on my other frames.
They use him because they like him not that he is good. Hats off to Ash mains.
Theres a lot of tenno who didnt get to see the real ash in his prime time, but the old ones we know why they change it but in the current state of the game theres a couple things not only about ash but other frames too that just doesnt seem to give that much benefit like why i would use teleport with 10 eximus around just look at the loki switch augment that sht can work on everything and stil give inmunity and still having a longer invi duration compared to ash its not that overall one is better than the other but those little things can be a completely change in gameplay or building wise. Hopefully we can expect good result about the nyx and trinity rework, frames desperate for it but still i would like a big patch QoL for improve the gameplay of a lot of wf not big reworks, just small changes like ash shuriken numbers scaling with power strenght and putting that armor strip into the ability, baruuk building combo with waves(well exca too right), loki new passive, equinox scaling, banshee 4th, something like this if u get my idea. I like the sense ov variety that the game has but for old players feels like with each new wf they leave like 10 away who just need small changes to be more reliable in coop gameplay, just look at the new calibans sentient wrath and look all the things that a second ability gives u and look again into ash shuriken with augment and all the power, a single ability that cant perform well if ur not the host and thats the same for caliban 1st too if u want to compare between first abilities idk, that just an opinion ive been thinking around since the last reworks but let me know what u think
Idk. I must create Batman
I don't know if it helps, but molt efficiency, primed continuity, and fatal teleport make stealth last more then long enough for me, i subsumed shuriken for wrathful advance, and trivialized energy via energy nexus, along with a coaction drift doubling my dreamers bond, my final arcane choice fell on steadfast because I just love zipping around using wrathful, amar's hatred port, and bladestorm/ fatal teleport, I can safely say it has yet to fail me.
Additionally i used a rakta dark dagger at the time for energy and overshields, but traded that in for the Okina Prime's incarnon shenanigans, hope these suggestions help
may Pablo's hands bless this frame
may his 1 be changed into his current 4, so he can spawn up to 3 shadows to stab at marked enemies.
may his 2 turn all his attacks into stealth ones and bypass the whole alertness state and synergize with his new 1.
may his 3 be a mixture of substitution and teleportation, in wich he drags a marked enemy and leaves him in his place to receive all fatal damage taken while the mark is active on the enemy, and his teleportation be recasteable so he canchain teleports for longer and faster traversals.
may his ultimate ability be a AoE burst of shadows that target neargy enemies within the range of the ability, removing agro from ash and allies and diverting it to th eenemies marked by the shadows attacks, these shadows should execute a single attack per enemy and chain up to two additional enemies on the edge of th emaximum range of the initial ability cast.
may his shadows have an exalted dual daggerthat will enable ash to use any other melee type independently to his shadows, yet allow the exalted dual daggers to use melee arcanes as well.
may these prayers be echoed by Ash mains all over the orogin system and the rngels drive our plees to Pablo's ears... Amen
I still love him😭
They nerfed him in old warframe he use to just need to hold 4 and auto teleport and do kills but muh that's too powerful if he had not been touched he would have aged like wine with the current game but nope. A revert would be nice also armor is not nearly has hard as the game use to be armor strip use to be amazing and available through only augments now if a frame doesn't armor strip thry are irrelevant
How my boy has fallen
Ash is my most played frame even though I have not used him in years. Either bring back the original blade storm or make it better. The game has evolved enough to handle the true power of Ash once again.
its sad cause ash is bad and loki is just objectively worse for the most part
Ash is really one of the worst Warframes currently, and I say this as a player who only plays with him. I do all the game content with him, I've spent absurd amounts of resources trying to make him good, and it still isn't enough. I really wish they'd do a complete rework of his ability kit. If they at least changed Shuriken to fire multiple guided projectiles with Slash damage, and made Blade Storm an instakill ability once you mark enemies, it would be perfect for him. I know his invisibility is short and his teleport is useless, but those two abilities might just need smaller improvements compared to the others I mentioned.
Currently, I can only use him with Nourish, Glaive Prime, and the two augments for Smoke Screen and Blade Storm, because that's the only way I can deal enough damage with high crits.
I was planning to revisit him as a weapons platform with the dual toxy and glaive build shown on this channel before. Think it’s worth ?
@@jpmorgan6146 My current build is quite inspired by hers, and yes, she is really good, especially because of the dual Toxocyst. But I had to completely discard the way Morning set up the Mods and Archon Shards on Ash; he used 3 blue shards and 2 green ones. I found it more useful to use 2 purple Tau, 2 red Tau, and 1 blue Tau, because in combination with Primed Flow, I can reach 502 Energy and make use of the two purple Shards. The only thing I'm missing is an Arcane Fury to make the Glaive consistently hit red crits. But I have a lot of trouble keeping the Melee Crescendo to the max since killing with Blade Storm in a group with 3 other players makes it almost impossible, but in solo runs, it's pretty easy. So in the end, it's a great build
@@yanlucca6716 I thought he did the two green shards for a full armor strip on the toxies?
@@jpmorgan6146 yeah thats the purpose of the 2 green shards, but I like using more the glaive than the toxocyst so thats why i use 2 purple and 2 red with more critical damage. But if you like to use more de toxocyst o just recommend use 1 Tau blue shard than 3 normal ones because you can save 2 slots to boost your crit damage or something else
love that the short tale was half the video lmao. Really great work on it tho, I hope you do it for other warframes too
I think Ash needs a QOL update. Banshee too.
I think something fun they could do with augments or a rework is have his smoke bombs have cloud AoE that stays for it’s duration and enemies who pass through it get marked by his 4th, augment could be Caltrops in smoke so they take slash procs while in smoke.
His 3rd NEEDS something to make it worth using at all, currently kullervo teleport is better in every way. Could make it so enemies with a slash proc killed by his 3rd Instil terror on enemies around opening them up for finishers by clones when using his 3rd
His 1st needs so much done to it. Passive Armour strip is a must. Either bounce between enemies or throw many more, could scale with range or strength. Needs more damage, and could be much better if thrown in a long cone infront of him and 360 mid air.
There are days where I'd like to go back to our old system....where we could just setup our mods/forma & weapons then clear everything, vs now where we have to grind out all the new stuff to keep our gear relevant to the current state of play.
This adds Ash to the big five of frames that desperately needs to be Pabloed: Chroma, Atlas, Valkyr, Oberon and Ash.
Ash isnt even terrible though. He barely needs any changes. Shuriken should armor strip without the augment and his 4 should have faster animations or at least allow more than one shadow clone at a time. The only weakness i see is his 4 is slow. Savage silence over his 1 and his 4 kills for a very long time
I dont even treat bladestorm as a damage ability. Just something to make an absolutely nutty heavy attack
oooooh ill listen to this on the way to class
Ash is still my go to over any tank frame his smoked shadow augment for 150% crit chance over anything is pretty great plus his slash passive , stealth is also top tier defensive skill that I think ppl sleep on .
Valkyr, nyx and ash need work
I'm glad I'm not the only one noticing this. I used to main ash 90 percent of the time. Now I cant remember a single mission i use him the past year. They really need to do something to blade storm, idk make it like some pseudo exalted like Khora's Whipclaw where the weapon scaling drastically increase's it's damage
+1
It's time to drink water
💦💦💦
Despite all kit inconsistencies, Ash is still the top of the food chain. Every frame with invisibility without downtime is and Ash also brings 150% weapon crit "passively".
Like, yes, ofc in that niche Octavia will forever be unbeaten (sadly), but just because of the pure freedom of modding and easy unconstrained invisibility he is by default the top of them.
Until invisibility gets reworked (as in completely destroyed as it should be), he will forever be the easiest and most useful level cap frame, especially for people who want to learn the game modes and need the baby wheels to get there. Another great example of this is Loki. He is literally one of the best level cap frames and he doesn't even have any other useful ability outside of invisiblity (and optionally on top of that Safeguard Switch, which is insane overkille being invulnerable on top of invisible for a waaay to overtuned scaling duration).
Just compare this to any other warframe, who has to stay alive with shieldgating, movement, CC (as in actually playing the game and not disabling enemy AI), etc. you name it, 98% of all other frames basically. Invisiblity and Invincibility are breaking the game on a fundamental level and unless they are fixed (which they are probably never), discussions like this are sadly absurd.
seems like warframes were specialised in their roles back then, today we have "support" frames like Jade. Powercreep is real, and it sucks that DE prefers to mostly rework frames that have a new/ upcoming skin for sale. I guess you can expect an Ash rework when his heirloom drops
Even saryn (Classic build range+duration) struggles against 100+ enemies
Damn
Ash is good for Corpus void cascade. Recasting invis is much easier than with Octavia. Problem is - I don't play VC unless it's omnia = grineer
When Dante released, I almost thought Equinox was going to be shafted. I'm scared she's coming up.
I don't think they care atm how strong she is, because of low play rate, its like octavia about 2 years ago, no one was really playing her, but her rate has gone up a lot the last year or so and no nerf yet, but equinox still has a very low play rate, so she is probably safe for quite a while :)
@morning8590 That's what I'm banking on. Now, hopefully Ash gets some love. I'd like his old Bladestorm back, if not just for shits and giggles
They also need to make his invis recast able while it’s active. I just want that permanent invis 😂😂😂
Old frames aren't likely to see reworks. Too much being injected into the new breed which is what's selling prime access, skins and other things. It's just the reality. Not like Excalibur or mag or frost or any of the other early frames are getting huge shifts.
Personally I still Iike to play his gimmick build, using Arcane Trickery, his 4 and a subsumed Silence, it deals with Steel Path Duviri pretty easily, no weapons needed if you roll weapons you don't like/use.
In start chart, I guess he's not great...
4:46 and then he spun the block because ash has standards
Honestly doesn’t even really need a rework Just buffs or I guess probably with this community call it a soft rework?
He just needs more numbers and he will probably be more than fine to be honest.
His kit isn’t clunky or unfun just is underwhelming compared to the rest of the cast
The sad thing is that kullervo does ashes job better than ash does.😂😂😂
"ninjas play free" :(
Just give him is old ult and watch the world burn 😅
Ash has always been my main and even though his kit is literally just a single ability and it's augment at this point, I think it's hard to justify him getting a rework over other frames. Just due to how strong an unconditional 150% crit chance + invisibility is. He can still make most weapons red crit with ease. There have been other frames that can't even stand on their own two feet while Ash can dance circles around level cap enemies. It's just unfortunately such a one dimensional play style
0:16 nah you’re joking he’s average maybe a tiny bit lagging but not one of the worst
With Valkyr, Limbo, Garuda, and Inaros even after his rework is still ass, Ash clears these losers and Loki but you’re not a loser Triburos.
Other then usels he is cool, if u like solo gaming
ash needs more love, please DE
goofy that people don't know how good he is still
Goofy that some people want to keep him down by saying he is fine and don't know better 0_o
RIP Ash. 2016-2024
Meh, he is still my goat. Free critical chance for my weapon and invis all i need to have fun in this game. Riven rolls suddnely become cheaper with him, critical damage and multi shot. Good to go
ash main here, i hav no problem about it, with the intro of helmenth, i hav tons of builds tat make ash even more stronger..my only complaint is only his survivability is weak, tat needs to buff......just dont be discouraged...ash's passive is still reliable if u kniw how to build him well....
a short tale of ash?! bro that was 8 minutes
i think ur confusing his kit with the game evolving over time also not every frame needs to nuke everything
we have enough of those already
the true frame thats had a down fall is loki
8 minutes is short lol tik tok has ruined attention spans 🤣
@morning8590 you think I go there?
Like when I hear short I wouldn't be expecting 8 minutes
If you think ash is irrelevant you just aren't good at the game 🤷
gj on insulting a grown up with a soy little comment :) judging by your profile pic you are like 8 or 9 years old so I wont be mean, well done!
@@morning8590 bro looking at a profile pic I haven't changed in years lmaooooo go play ash man he's great in endurance, I get people not liking him outside of that but if you use him where he performs (level capping and high damage weapons platforming), then you won't have issues, good job on trying to insult who you thought was a kid on something opinionated instead of using facts or objective truth 😂😂😂
@@leor.sanders5852 Go play Ash in endurance 08:15 fr sotrue you forsure know what your talking about 🤣
Cap, he's extremely popular and borderline top pick for lvl cap stuff. Especially Cascade & Distruption.
Can't spell "trash" without "ash"
I think this is a bit overdramatised. Competition catching up does not diminish Ashs ability to do what he did before. And while I agree that all of his abilities are pretty mediocre on their own, their combination one a single frame still is just really convenient - his teleport being so bad is not even that much of a thing, because it gives you a helminth-slot without losing out on anything.
🤣
They deliberately sabotaged Ash because he was they best alpha male frame in the game.
It’s toxic feminism from Warframe devs.
The feminine representation in Warframe is 90% to male 10%
Completely unfair and unequal when it is done on the expense of male representation in Warframe.
This has been gradually getting worse over the past 10yrs.
lol what?
Are you mentally disabled?
Beta male type comment 💀💀💀
@@HereForTheCupcakes For real tho😂
nah I refuse to believe this is a real comment 0_0
The ads bro! 😞
My ash is crazy good lol ❤
You'd get far greater results with Kullervo.
@@synapse913 sad but true
Outfukinstanding! 👊🫵