ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ค. 2024
- Used the Maho MH400E CNC Mill, and the Coborn power scraper to set up my machine vise.
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This is my Coborn scraper review video.
• The best powered scrap...
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This is the vise I am using:
US affiliate Link - amzn.to/3TqfTzY
EU affiliate link - amzn.to/3JkLEpG
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00:00 - Intro
00:31 - Patreon announcement
00:42 - Why add keys?
01:15 - Flatten the base
02:32 - Coborn scraper
06:25 - Measure the slots
08:53 - Machining the slot
11:42 - Testing the result
12:30 - Blooper out take - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
![[FULL EP.14] เซียนหรั่ง สอน มาร์ชจุ จับปูนา ฮากระจาย | เฮ็ดอย่างเซียนหรั่ง | One Playground](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/M8mPjd_T2lo/mqdefault.jpg)
Was the oops just an order of magnitude in clock resolution? It wasn't entirely clear to me in the bloopers where the discrepancy was. Oh, and also your bloopers had a weird left side audio echo at the end of your clips, not that I expect production quality in a blooper reel, just pointing out a quirk of your editor to watch for. Thanks for bringing us along, good stuff.
Yeah. I read 1thou as 10thou :/
This was the first video where I used Resolves "Dialog leveller", and it crashed on me about seven or eight times. I need to work out the workflow, as I also heard some clipping in the LH ear on my headset. Sorry about that.
Fantastic stuff with that vice scraping. I did mine my hand a while back and I would have done anything to have a power scraper like yours when doing it.
I got really lucky. This one came up for sale locally, when the owner got a Biax. I really like it. It is a lovely too.
Outstanding job.
I did mine years ago,the keys and it really saved alot of time.
I have never checked it for being flat however.
I want to learn how to scrape.
I have watched alot of videos, never done it.
Thanks for sharing. 👍
I started scraping by grinding the teeth off the end inch of an old file, grinding and polishing the 5 deg negative rake and bought a tube of generic Prussian blue oil paint from an art supplier and go for it. It is easy.
What an exiting goose hunt! 😂
Thanks.
3 nicely worked out and hardened round locating buttons and tie it down with clamps.
Luckily that was not necessary, but it also a good idea.
Nice job.
The scraping is awesome.
Take care, Ed.
Thanks Ed.
I remember using a powered scaper as an apprentice, the motor drive unit was hung off a stand, it seemed huge at the time, and the hand held scraper assembly just gyrated all over the place, possibility the wire cable flex shaft was damaged, or me being a 8 stone weakling. Thats a lovely set up, with honing disc.
Great idea on using the sized table slot keys to align the vice, pre measurement/machining, saves a load of time 👍.
That's a great technical/accurate blooper, wrong footed at step one, can take days sometimes to realise, been there many times.
So is "Plonk and Go" ref mill vice time, great job, and thanks for sharing.
Regards John
Thanks for the feedback John. That Coborn is also a good workout for me. It is pretty heavy, and you need a very tight control on it. It gets tiring pretty fast.
The rabbit hole, LOL! I thought I was the only one that did that. And I plan on learning how to scrape. Great job.....
Hi Jasper. Yeah, I cant pass up on a rabbit hole it seems :) Go for it. You can start by grinding the tip of a worn out file. Prussian blue from the art supply store and some sort of surface plate, and you are off to the races.
@@RotarySMP I'll give it a shot....
@@jster1963 That is how I got started. Ground the teeth off a file, radius on the nose, 5° positive rake, and a nice mirror hone. You have to rehone it a lot, but it works fine.
@@RotarySMP Excellent. Thank you!
Love seeing how far your sub count has come, well deserved!
Thanks Pete. Kind of "slow and steady wins the race" :)
Man! Can you believe this! I was doing exactly the same in my shed this morning. Go inside to have lunch et voila, some free tips from the pro. Thanks for another awesome video
That is funny timing. Was your slot also a bit misaligned? I got lucky that it was also undersize.
@@RotarySMP there was no slot, so I used a 4mm wide parallel in the bed slot, which I clamped in the vise jaws and strapped the vise down to the bed upside down and milled it. It was only a 50 euro vise for a small hobby machine, so dimensions are less critical.
I made the 4mm blocks myself from normal hot rolled steel (since I have no clue where to get tool steel in small amounts for a decent price).
@@josseman Nice solution.
That is going to be a great time saver.
Thanks Joel. I sure hope so, Pretty happy with that result.
Note to self: In a similar situation, sleep on it. If not that, at least go for a coffee and think it through. Good job catching the error.
I only found it after I'd given up, and finished editing the video. It was when I rendered it out and watched it that I thought... Duh! And went back to the basement and milled the slot.
Beautiful work.
Thanks.
Nice to see them in use.
I am glad to have that job out of the way. I always meant to make some keys, but once I received tham I was out of excuses.
grate video as always!! I have used my precision flat stones for a while now I just alternate both sides and had no problems so far.
Some one pointed out that they are always part of the 3 surface method, as you are always rubbing them on the work as well.
I turn my keys out of round stock & make buttons with countersunk bore for the mount screw. That way I can easily turn a step into the OD to fit the vise & keyway, if they don't match.
Good tip Martin. Thanks.
Good simple plan for fixing key ways
It was lucky that the slot was under width more than misaligned.
@@RotarySMP now you know it is accurate.
@@akfarmboy49 I was quite surprised how well that worked out. Especially as I did it :/
So satisfying to knock some nagging and critical time saving improvement off the list. I guess there is just one more reason to measure twice ….. or three times, from scratch before you cut. Great results. 👍👍😊👍👍
I was glad it was just a Mark reading indicator wrong error :)
Nice to see the Maho in action again!
It sure is!
I saw you were adding wd40 to thin out the paint. I found that wd40 does dry and gel up slightly, and parafin oil works way better, does not change its consistency for at least couple of days. You can typically get it in a pharmacy, it used to be prescribed as a mild laxative, so you can get a medical grade fine oil for thinning the paint, and it pretty much never dries up. Cleans well with isopropyl too.
I also made my own paint for scraping with red iron oxide powder and that paraffin oil, it is surprisingly really really good, you can smear it really thin and it still covers the area extremely evenly. The trick was to use glass, like a drink glass, made out of glass, and a glass pane, like out of a window, i have one from and old fridge, and you simply mix the powder with the oil by putting it on a glass pane, and "rubbing it in" with the bottom of a drinking glass.
Apparently, the original Whitworth three-plate method used iron oxide paint too.
I don't tend to mix the paint in advance. I just mix and use, and so it doesnt have time to gel. This is a tube of Prussian blue oil paint I bought from the art supply shop about 10 years ago, and is only 1/4 used so far. I like the WD-50 handy, as I use it to clean as well.
I used to have keys under my vice, but those keys can cause damage to your mill table. Instead I removed the keys. Then set up and dialed in the vise square to at lease .0002" or better. Then drill and ream 2 holes right thru the vice and into the table.
Now each time you need to install the vice, just simply place the vice on the table, line up the dowel holes, insert the dowels, and tighten the bolts.
My vice is repeatable within .0002" every time!
I couldn't bring myself to drill into the Maho's table...again :(
Great job!
Thank you! Cheers!
Got to love the power scraper, what a tool!
Yeah, it really is a nice machine. Heavy and it takes a fair bit of space, but works really well, and doesn't scream loudly :)
@@RotarySMP Yes, I was impressed by how qiet it was when you turned it on!
@@philhermetic I do drop the audio level when machines run, but that is a nice hum, rather than the scream of the angle grinder motors Biax uses.
For scraping it's of course also possible to tighten the vice around a fixed block on the workbench. Quick and easy.
But I suppose it's a bit late for that now :)
Duh! I should have thought of that :/
This is a great idea!
@@HM-Projects It would have been.
Great video. Make corrections to alignment as best you can with the means you have or, hire it out.
Thanks Joe. I was pretty happy with the result.
Really need to do this on my vice 😀
It is something I had been meaning to do for years.
very nice
Thanks
I lost the keys to my vices and the locksmith was to say the least confused when I called him.
No luck finding any film for you but I'm tempted to buy a box of SAE wudruff keys to drop off in Naxos for you.
No worries. It is weird how easy it is to find 50 year expired film, but everyone holds on to their 2 year expired stuff :)
Nice project, I've done this as well to my vise in the past and it's much quicker now to set up.
I made my keys a little undersized so they are in line when I push the vise forward before clamping it down.
This way I can still indicate the vise if something funny happens or I need more precision.
These ones are so nice and precise, and the Maho slots are also very high tolerance.
@@RotarySMP Yeah I believe that, mine are just some scraptonium
I've been using my set of 2 stone very heavily over the last 5 years, and their accuracy is still actually spot on (i've got a few oversized gauge blocks and they clean and polish them beautifuly which indicates great overall flatness) ! I think the theory behind this might be, that if you use it only on various ground/scraped surfaces you're actually averaging out any error that one single surface wears in the stone -> the next surface comes in and wears something else -> rinse and repeat -> error averages out of your stones are actually still very flat and even flatter than they were at the beginning.
Only after I edited that I starting thinking. Two stones has four surfaces, so I you mix it up and don't aways rub like on like, it would also have the same effect.
The surface being stoned is a third surface, too.
@@somebodyelse6673 exactly
@@somebodyelse6673 Good point. I didn't think of that.
I think I would touch up the register for jaws !!
I will get to that sooner or later.
We have the same thing on a a few of our vises at the shop. It's not always 100% accurate sadly. If your table's slots are kinda beat up from years of machining they can be out a little bit... I Know when I slide a t-nut through the slots there's parts which are tighter than others.. Maybe they're machined that way, or it's just years of being beat up.. Worst I've had is the vice being out 2 to 3 thou, which isn't bad depending on what you're doing. My shop does high tolerance stuff a lot, so I usually stick to just indicating the vice normally.
I'd say this is a great idea for quick set up changes on parts or pieces which aren't critical, otherwise I'd still dial in the vise manually, nothing is going to beat that accuracy.
I checked the T slots of the Maho with one of those super precise keys, and luckily they are still very accurate. The slots have a constant firm sliding fit. Very nicely machined by Maho.
Surprised you didn't check the top and bottom key slots too. 👍👍
Good point. I probably should have mentioned it in the video.
I thought about it, but:
1/ My Y travel is too short to cut then in one go
2/ I couldn't think of an easy way to align it to fixture along the bed
3/ I have never used the vise that way
4/ if I need to I'll have to remove the keys from the current position.
5/ for the occasional use case, I can just tram in the vise.
While I understand the benefit of having vise keys, I do genuinely like the idea of not using them because if you make an oops on your cnc program you get a mechanical fuse. Because the vise will move during a crash instead of transferring all that force to your bed and ball screws. Just my personal preference.
That is a good point.
I think I liked the first solution, by which I mean you were able to machine it like you did… The others seem like a waste of time at this point. 😂
Hi John, Yeah, you can imagine I had a nagging feeling at the time that the 0.25mm error seemed excessive. Finishing up the edit at about 21:00, I finally work out that I was out by a factor 10x, so I went back to the basement and machined it like I originally planned. Duh!
I have a cheap vise like that too, i'm almost expecting the slots to be inaccurate.
So i was considering making one of the keys round and eccentric, so by rotating the key i could get the keys to be aligned even if the slot is off.
That is also a good solution. I am lucky these slots were misaligned by less than they were too narrow.
I'd be increasing the clearance of the hold down studs. BTW It's a lot safer to lay the vise on the table and slide the T nuts under the vise while twiddling the studs.
Good point. Those are studs, but I also have nuts which I could slide under there.
That indicator is hard to read, I had read the 0.008 as 0.018 in. Thanks for sharing.
You and me both... once I saw it in the edit :/
Good stuff, the stones as mentioned have more surfaces. If something happens to them just let me know. Your set is guaranteed against all but shark attacks. I did wonder if you needed an angled one.
G'day. There is an interesting comment about them above. It was pointed out that the three flats method is at work with only two stones, as you also have the surfaces you are dressing. Those stone you made are excellent. Thanks again.
What I do is make the slot 16H5 end make new blocks/key but chek also your block in the vise or milling the vice inside., hmm you need 15min to line up the vise 😒 nice video aswell
The Maho t slots are really accurate, as are those 14mm keys I was given. Both mic'ed out dead on 14.000mm. I got lucky that the existing slot was undersized by more than the alignment error.
The funny thing is, I mentioned that I use table keys on my mill vises once on a machinists forum and got burned at the state as a heretic. The prevailing attitude seemed to be that the only reason the vise mfgs added key slots was for aesthetics and the "proper/easier" method was mess around with an indicator LOL.
Yeah, I already got that message in the comments here as well :)
@@RotarySMP It does make me wonder why real machineshops, making real money, (ie messier dowty q400 landing gear for example) spend many
thousands of dollars/euros on fixtures that locate precisely onto the the work table.
Perhaps its the same sort of percious thinking that hold that you are not a real "machinist" if you use digital instruments.
I have met probably over a thousand machinists and visited perhaps 200 different machineshops and manufacturers,
guess what ,they all had vices with keys and digital gauges.
@@steveggca :)
Thanks for that input Steve. As a hobbiest in my basement, I have little clue what is good advice and what is polemic.
@@RotarySMP No problem , just to flog the idea a bit further , the width, parallelism,spacing, and X-Y alignment of the T-slot's are held to
the same geometry and accuracy as the machine it's self ,BECAUSE its intended to be used for alignment of vices and fixtures.
If you have the inspection report for your Maho you can confirm this for yourself.
@@steveggca I could feel that with those precise keys I was given. Their fit in the Maho T-slots was a very consistent snug sliding fit. All over.
Nice work, very satisfying! One question, is it worth checking/scraping to get the base of the vise coplanar with the floor of the vise opening (or the top surface of jaws)?
Yes, that will come sooner or later. I have little exectation of this vise's quality.
You kind of have three stones (4 actually), since you have 4 sides and, afaik, there is no issue in mixing sides up
I wasn't sure if it is a good idea to mix the different grits, but that will work. Also the the part to be stoned is a third surface.
Nice job. When scraping the base of the vice, isn't it necessary to make sure that the base is parallel with the vice bed and both are square with the fixed jaw? I was surprised that this was not done. Just scraping the base could put the bed and fixed jaw out of square. Thanks
I hve no expectations that anything is really swaure and flat on this cheap vise. Since you have to start somewhere, I started on the base. Sooner or later I will get around to scraping the ways in flat, and fixed jaw perpendicular.
Turned out well. I had to go down the route of machined keys like those you drew as the key slots in my vise are wider than my tee slots. It did take a bit of messing with.
My vise mountings are slotted out the side so one can slide the mounting bolts in and out. Looked a bit fiddly trying to feed the vise over the bolts.
Just out of interest, have you checked the parallelism of the vise base to the upper surface (where you sit the parallels) and the top surface of the jaws?
Hi Andrew, I haven't done any other checks on this turd-vise, but I can see that I will be scraping the whole thing in sooner or later :)
Wondering if clamping one block of wood to the table and clamping the inverted vise to the block would’ve been a sturdier setup for scraping… Just brainstorming.
Yeah, that was a suggestion I heard after I finished :) Didn't think of that.
Just a friendly announcement..
I haven’t got a dam thing done in my shop since I stumbled across your channel.. 🤭🤫
Sorry about that Jason. I'll aim for a boring video this Sunday, so you can get back to your projects :)
@@RotarySMP ah yeah ! I just bought a new to me boring head for the mill, that would be perfect 👍🏻 🤣😂
You do a fantastic job of making darn near everything we do look spectacularly easy. Except for that CNC stuff, I only have manual machines. I know absolutely zero about anything involved with CNC, so I wouldn’t know the slightest when it comes to that. But with your content I’m beginning to consider a path where I might scratch the surface ever so slightly and see if I could learn a thing or two.
You really are a multi talented guy. Very intriguing I must say.
Carry on my friend. My projects are not going anywhere, they will wait me out for sure.
@@jasonhull5712 What mill do you have? Did you get one of those boring and facing heads like Wohlhaupter, or a conventional boring head? I only have one of the crappy import ones.
@@RotarySMP I have a import as well, the mill is a Bridgeport “Clone” it’s a Promax 3 Hp variable speed 9x42 and I have a Clausing Metosa C1330S lathe (actually two of them as I’m in the process of repairing one to sell) and I wish I could get my hands on a Wohlhaupter, I just have a conventional import boring head at the moment. I’ve been hunting for a boring/facing head but haven’t found “the one” yet. This import has no markings on it so technically I can’t say for certain it’s a import. Just looking at the quality of manufacturing I’m thinking it’s an import. But for $50 A guy can’t Scoff at it. It’s a 3/4” with the R8 shank so I have loads of tooling that fit it. I just don’t have a lot of experience with boring heads. I’ve always just used the necessary end mills or the lathe. I too am operating out of a small two car garage so space is very limited. Next on my list is a tool cutter grinder and or surface grinder.
I am in Indianapolis Indiana and for some odd reason I’ve found tons of great deals on old machines, just absolutely nothing in this state. They tend to be in Ohio. Or Kentucky, or Georgia or … well anywhere but here. Haha. So I just keep looking once or twice here and there and eventually I’ll find something to drag home. I mainly just do small odd jobs and some work for locals here and there. I have a couple larger machine shops near me that Toss me scraps from time to time. But I really just tinker as a hobby. I just enjoy metal fabrication and machining. I restored a 1970 Camaro and I build custom Drones for racing and hobby. I also come from a family of wings. Father and two uncles build and fly single engine aircraft, A/P mechanics and executive captain for American Airlines. Grand father worked for Delta Airlines til he retired. So a lot of what you discuss and show in your videos I can relate to and am interested in.
I am a HVAC-R technician so I don’t get to see much of the aviation scene anymore. But I’m rambling.. I’m sorry.
Over here the used tool market is very fragmented. Swiss machines in Switzerland, German machines in Germany etc. So you have to monitor a bunch of different Craigslist type websites to find out what is available in the neighboring countries.
When you were checking the alignment and scraping the bottom, did you check the parallel to the table plane of the vise, the jaws and bottom of the slide?
Not yet, I assume this is all over the place on this cheap vise, and figured I'd start with the bottom, and then scrape the guiding ways and fixed jaw to align with it at a later stage.
now you just gotta scrape the table flat 😳😳
Not any time soon :)
NIce video, how much time-saving was it now? 10min?
I would expect that I wasted 15 minutes every time I dialed n the vise.
just a thought after scraping the base of the vice have you made the bottom un parallel to the work holding area of the vice?
Not yet. I need to scrape the guiding ways parallel, and the fixed jaw vertical, but will do that later.
Takes me a few minutes to indicate the vise, I use the tapping while moving the X axis trick demonstrated by Quinn. I did think about adding keys but then the vise wouldn't sit flush on the work table when I take it off, which annoys me for some reason :s
Do you have an indicator in a tool holder? That would also be really fast.
@@RotarySMP no, but I have a DTI on a magnetic base that I attach to the milling machine "headstock"
Once you add the second (or third) vice, this becomes harder... (Although it can still be reasonably fast. I recommend a micron indicator as it's sooo much easier to see the change without much movement)
@@ewildgoose yeah good point, not necessary for people like me that hardly change the vise out but very handy if you're doing it often enough though in that case it would make sense to leave multiple workholdings mounted on the table 🤷♂️
Your indicator tip is a tear drop instead of a sphere? Any advantage to that?
This is a very old 1/10 000" indicator my Dad gave me. I don't know why it has this tip, but it is a really nice indicator.
"5 minute job" - Btw, did you take the vice jaws off and clean behind them?
About typical for my 5Min jobs :)
Oh man I wish you had caught it on camera when you realized what was wrong, that would have been great content... At least for me
I had a nagging doubt when I wrote 0.25mm, thinking, "that doesn't look like a 1/4mm". But it was hours later, once I had finished editing and watched the first draft when I was like "Duh!"
@@RotarySMP it doesn't have to be in the video for me to hear the swearing 😂
@@olestampevestergaard4746 You are not wrong there :)
Does scraping the bace of the vice not make it out of parallel with the opening parts bottom surface
It would, assuming that they were parallel in the first place. Probably not a valid assumption for a cheap chinese vise. I will need to scrape in the guiding ways, and fixed jaw sometime later.
@@RotarySMP scraping still seems like black magic surface science to me so I was just curious
@@mitchellstrobbe7779 Ideally I would have surveyed the whole part, as I could have found reason to scrape an angle into the base to correct an error elsewhere, but it is the biggest surface, so it is easier to make small corrections elsewhere.
Hey there great video ! Very interesting! May I ask were you got your ground stones ?
Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate that.
They were a gift from a viewer.
@@RotarySMP aww do you have any idea where to get some thing like that or equivalent ? I have searched up and down the internet at this point .
@@IcDave99 Stefan Gotteswinter advertises them on his website.
gtwr.de/precision-benchstones/
@@RotarySMP oh woow thank you so much !
@@IcDave99 You could also just buy three stones and rub them together in varying pairs until they were all flat.
I found that keys are not so precise as I would like. There is always some deviation. I always run dial indicator on the vise at work.
Those keys I received are very precise, but there are some dings in the table which may effect accuracy.
@@RotarySMP Yeah, that's what I mean. Keys may be super precise but there's always something askew. Better to indicate that stationary jaw than depend on keys if precision is necessary. But almost always keys are adequate.
@@coreoocoreoo1059 I would need to do a lot more work on that turd vise before that was the keys were the limit of accuracy :)
I do still have a grinder vise, I could strap down and dial in for more accurate work. Need to get a lot better at maching first.
I wonder what Vee Dee thirty is 😂😂😂
Ask Ricky of trailer park boys. I think it is a canadian thing :)
The gloves are for decorative purpose i suppose? 😂
You like them :) Keeps the prussian blue off the skin when scraping.
@thisoldtony This man has same machines you do LOL... I think
Tony also has a Maho, but an earlier model. He has a Schaublin manual mill as well.
Why are you using an imperial indicator and not metric equipment?... Seeing as you are German :D
1/ not german (Kiwi in Austria)
2/ I have a metric DTI, but it needs repair
3/ my Dad gave me that Verdict
4/ It is a really nice tool to use.
:)
If it takes you 15 minutes to tram the vise, that is the problem. Understand that process better and forget the keys. It should take 1 minute to get within half of a thousandth of an inch.
--Doozer
Good point. It starts with my pretty crappy mag base. And that I dont do it often enough to get fast.
@@RotarySMP You don't need a mag base. Just hold the indicator in a collet in the spindle. -Doozer
@@kooldoozer That makes sense. Another tool holder dedicated to the indicator. That would sped things up too. Thanks for the tip.