Responding to the Claim that Trads are Toxic and Divisive
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ก.ค. 2021
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Music written and generously provided by Paul Jernberg. Find out more about his work as a composer here: pauljernberg.com
Since the release of Pope Francis’ recent moto proprio which severely restricts access to the Tridentine Mass or the Traditional Latin mass, there has been quite a bit of commentary about either the injustice or the necessity of this new arrangement.
I’ve already shared some of my own thoughts on it and so have others with a sympathetic view, but I I’ve also heard some, not the least of which is Pope Francis himself, express the need for this because of the toxic and dissenting elements within Traditional Catholicism that forced his hand for the sake of “unity”.
And of course, this is a valid concern. There are elements within Traditional Catholicism that promote disunity and disobedience, although I think the perception of such currents is highly overstated. I understand how people can develop that perception based on online interactions, but the internet tends to amplify more quarrelsome voices because controversy sells and the internet is dominated by whatever can hold our attention longest.
But, none the less, I do admit that you will encounter people in traditional communities at a Latin mass or a gathering of such people who can be hard to tolerate because of how assertive and even condescending they can be towards anything or anyone who deviates from their understanding of the faith.
A more recent example of this, for me, was when I rewatched a live stream I did on this topic last week and took a glance at the live chat replay. Frankly, I was a bit embarrassed by some of the comments that were appearing there.
And that forced me to confront this question: is this the kind of mentality that I want to encourage or attract? Because my channel has been shifting more and more traditional over time as I have done so personally. But sometimes I feel the need to take an inventory of how things are developing for me personally.
Which raises the question - why can traditionalists be so cantankerous, angry, and what some might call “toxic”? A comprehensive analysis of that question should offer a few explanations, but I’d like to focus on one that I haven’t heard discussed before.
Which is that traditionalists, for better or worse, strongly believe what they do and aren’t afraid to assert it. And this is actually a virtue but it appears to us to be rude or confrontational because modern decorum has impressed on us, unless we’re a “visible minority”, to never assert our beliefs or interests.
We’re supposed to be agnostic or at least, keep our strongly held opinions to ourselves - or if we must share them, do so in a somewhat self-deprecating way. We’re supposed to say things like, “this is my opinion, but it might not be right.”
GK Chesterton, I think, rightly said that this habit is entirely irrational. If you say that it might be wrong, you are saying that it is not your opinion. All you’re doing is reciting an opinion that is out there, but if you don’t actually believe it to be correct, then you are admitting that you don’t believe it, and therefore, that it is not your opinion at all.
The reason we say this is because of a weak-minded fear that we may have to account for our beliefs when they are challenged, so we use these kinds of wishy washy disclaimers as an escape route in case conflict arises.
In short, it’s because we lack fortitude to first, take a stand on an issue, and truly stand there. We’re afraid of the risks and responsibility. We’re afraid that we may actually have to do some research to know the truth of a thing that doesn’t come as easily as listening to the first bit of a podcast before we get distracted by something other trivial thing.
And when someone truly takes a stand on something and is unshakeable from that position, it feels like a confrontation. It directs a mirror on our own lack of fortitude so that we can see it for what it is - cowardice, indifference, and laziness.
The reason we have a tougher time encountering this kind of unshakeable confidence in mainstream Catholic parishes, is because there is a much larger rate of indifference and lukewarmness in those parishes.
I don’t mean to say that is the fault of those parishes necessarily, but when you are a big tent, you tend to attract a lot of everybody and unfortunately, most people today, in every walk of life, are just floating down the stream of indifference.
And it’s easy to mistake indifference for being laid back or “chill” when really it’s just laziness and apathy. And that should be a concern for Catholics because there’s this passage in Holy Scripture that says that God would prefer us to be either hot or cold. That what he hates most of all, is lukewarmness. He hates it so much that he uses the imagery of vomiting the lukewarm out.
Read the rest: brianholdsworth.ca
I'm getting the impression that people have severely misunderstood the thesis of this video. I'm actually defending "trads" against this supposed stereotype by pointing out that this perception might have a lot more to do with the confidence that traditional Catholics have in their beliefs, which is often mistaken for combativeness, as opposed to the indifference that is common in mainstream Catholicism which is often mistaken for being laid back or easy-going.
Nah it's understable. Don't be lukewarm. I just think it's worth mentioning that some traditionalists can be rather harsh/uncalled for rather than virtuous in defense of their beliefs.
Im a new trad... I get how it feels to be perceived as "uppity"
You were clear. Perhaps some folks didn't listen all the way through.
I didnt fully understand what is your point Brian?you wana say that only "trad"catholuic can see what going on in Church today...by the way what mainstrem catholic actualy mean?im not "trad"..is this mean that im "mainstrem"?
I've been criticized by NO types for doing lay apologetics, that "it's divisive" and "anti-ecumenical".
That some Traditional types can suffer from spirituall pride, sure. We are all sinners in this world, and the devil will even try to twist anything into sin, even the true, the good, and the beautiful.
This is an excellent video. Matt Fradd did a recent video on what he likes about the Traditional Latin Mass and a viewing commentator said, "There’s a difference between believing the TLM is superior, and believing that you are superior for attending the TLM." I think that sums it up. We can think something is better or superior, but that doesn't mean I'm necessarily I'm "holier than thou" for attending it. We are all sinners, including me.
Well said. The issue isn’t about personal superiority. The issue is whether the TLM fosters a sacramental life one that leads souls to heaven in a superior manner to the NO. And it’s seems an objective answer to that question would be to look at the fruits of the NO over the past 50 years.
@@commercialrealestatephilos605 yeah, and that survey that came out a couple years ago regarding NO vs TLM attendees' attitudes toward such things as contraception, abortion, etc. was extremely damning. You would think they were different religions
@@Acgijhffx I know the survey you speak of, but, let's take the issue of contraception as an example. I don't think it would be fair to say that because 98% of TLM Catholics are morally opposed to contraception and only 13% of weekly Mass going Catholics generally are that the TLM is then WAY WAY better at fostering fidelity to Church teaching on contraception. Don't get me wrong, I do think the TLM, all things being equal, will bear more spiritual fruits for the person attending. However there are other factors that lead to that survey's results. Here are two: 1) the type of person hunting down the lone TLM in the diocese will likely be a devout and not nominal Catholic. 2) If Humanae Vitae loving Catholics make up a super majority of Catholics at any given TLM it would be hard for a libertine Catholic to feel at home in such a parish environment. They wouldn't exactly fit in at parish functions haha.
@@kyler9323 But the question is this: why would a devout Catholic be inclined to go to the TLM and not stay at a Novus Ordo Mass? If Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi is not something that has much importance, why would devout people be attracted to the TLM and not a reverent Novus Ordo. Why is the TLM so good at keeping people in their faith and the Novus Ordo so bad at it?
Good point. But just because one may not think that they are holier than thou, doesn't mean that others don't consider themselves to be that way. I have witnessed this first hand, and I have been guilty of it, as well. I think this video and others, proves that trads are not yet demonstrating the introspection that is needed to take ownership of their shortcomings. I see this with other movements in the church, as well.
Ive been to 20 or so different churches in the last 2 years and the TLM is the only mass where people have welcomed me and invited me for coffee afterward.
That is bad...and I know Catholics, we are VERY indifferent towards who seat next to us while in Holy Mass. I have been part of up to 5 ministries at one point, 10 years ago and still didn't made a good friend from my parish. This parish is mainly Filipinos and 10-15% Caucasian.
It's like attending a huge school, you become in a little drop in the massive ocean. Protestant churches are small and everyone gets to know each other and support each other. I think our Catholic church is failing in this too.
@@lapitufitaazul are you sure about that?
100%. Absolutely. I have heard many comments regarding this as well. Just another area where we can improve as a church. However, considering all the issues we have presently in our beloved CC, this is not a priority! 🤷🏻♀️ 😉
Come on now I've been invited for tea at every NO mass I've been too lol
I just went to my first in-person mass (NO) in Chicago today. I wasn’t ignored but I also wasn’t really welcomed. A man stopped me at the end and said they noticed I was new and that they needed a lot of help with the lay-person jobs during mass (collection baskets, passing out flyers, etc.) and asked if I would be willing to help out next mass. Is that normal to ask a first-time visitor? I would be willing to help out, but I’m not a parishioner or a baptized Catholic, so I don’t even know if I’m allowed to do those jobs.
I’m a “trad,” because I believe in and love, the good, the true, and the beautiful.
I'm a reborn Catholic. My first Mass since my confirmation on my own free will and of my own desire to go was on Holy Thursday 2021. The Mass was in 3 Languages at the Same time English,Spanish,Polish. Half Latin half Nova Ordus. My Mother went to her first Latin Mass 2 Weeks ago and is going to confession Tmm and taking communion on Sunday for the first time in a while. We need to recatechize OURSELVES. I WANT THE LATIN MASS I'M 25 YO.
MEDITATE ON THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT MATHEW 5-7
STATIONS OF THE CROSS
IM NOT A SAINT I SMOKE WEED, WATCH PORN, IM VULGUR. I want to change.
we dont want JESUS
WE NEED JESUS OF NAZARETH THE CHRIST, THE MESSIAH. Go to Latin Mass on the Lord's Day Domingo (SUNDAY) go to confession and Nova Orduz Vigil on Sabado (Sabbath [Saturday)
One Church
I'm not a trad, though I believe in those things.
@@JP2GiannaT
There is no Trad. That is just a word from those who hates the Catholic faith.
Amen
Like c'mon you don't need to be "trad" to believe in those things...just stop thinking Latin mass is the only true mass...
I'm a Trad guy, I dont believe NO is bad, just that if the real presence is there, then let us give the best glory we can give to God
Amen to that!
watch Fr Gregory Hesse
If? It is there. No matter which mass it is, the real presence is there. Period. Can we all just agree on that? Both forms are perfectly valid. It’s not how you worship that matters, it’s how you live out what you worship.
@Nt MN, the option is not questioning the true presence in the NO. They are saying that if we believe the Eucharist is truly the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus, then we ought to give our very best in our worship of Him.
A trad guy isn't a Catholic, it appears.
I love TLM to be as normalized as Novus Ordo BUT this type of elitism from the "mad trads" isn't really helping in making that happen. This snobbish and "exclusivist" attitude was the same reason why I left the Church in my teens.
Catechism should be the first priority. Poor catechism is the very reason why the churches are hideous and the faith is dying. Without catechism and humilty, you'll just be a "hipster playing liturgies."
I hope the pope's letter contained these:
1. Catechize because catechism is what most Catholics lack (instead of doing cheesey gimmicks during mass).
2. Perform Novus Ordo PROPERLY.
3. Promote and preserve the Traditional Latin Mass and the other liturgies of the Church (Ambrosian. Mozarabic, Byzantine, Coptic, etc.)
4. Improve the quality of our seminaries (enough of the gimmick priests).
5. A New Crusade and a stronger Counter-Reformation.
I don't think NO shoul be normalized.
As we have diveristy of Western and Eastern rites, we don't need Novus Ordo, I suppose.
no TLM, but the rest on your list is there and is something I think all of us could stand with
I was the opposite. I left Novus Ordo basically for how gay and watered down it all is. Even when I was more of a militant Atheist in my mid-late teens/twenties, I respected Trads. Liberal Catholics opinions are irrelevant to me, even back then since "liberalism is a sin" as I would throw back at their "whom am I to judge" laid back, no balls beliefs; A heresy that, among other things, denies God's absolute jurisdiction over individuals and societies, denies the need for divine revelation, and canonizes the principle of "independent or free morality", despite the contradiction that the moral and independent concepts suppose, as the church and Fr. Felix Sarda y Salvany have stated.
Video: Trads are not divisive, just outspoken about their beliefs.
People in this comment thread: yeah, and Novus Ordo should NOT be normalized and it is gay and watered down.
Yeah, I’m sure that rhetoric is not divisive or toxic at all…
I have read and observed the aggressive vile language of many "traditionalists" and it shouldn't be downplayed or swept under the rug. Lord have mercy.
I’ve read more vile behavior from non-trads than from trads, and I’ve experienced more hatred from non-trads than from trads. I’ve also encountered more things that lead people to hell from non-trads than from trads.
I have experienced as a traditional Catholic some alarmingly vicious attacks by people who tradition itself an idol. Being bitten by your own was more hurtful than any insult or argument from any other group of people. I’m pretty good at turning the other cheek, but that one stung.
Supposedly this aggressive vile language is coming from the 10% extremist traditionalists, although the vast majority of them is faithful, loyal folks. I really want to believe this. So where is the 90%? Where are their sites and their blogs? Where is their social media presence? I'd like to hear from them. If the 90% of the loyal, faithful people were heard, we wouldn't be having Traditionis Custodes right now.
@@Athmoneus At the parishes minding their own business.
But if you want to see non vile traditionalists I would send you to One Peter Five just off the top of my head.
You can literally find them in plenty of places. Heck, even the official SSPX aren’t as vile as people believe. Check out their podcasts and their website.
As for you tubers, Dr. Taylor Marshall, this very channel, etc.
You are literally on one of the traditional channels asking for where they are. Lmao.
But yeah, just go to a TLM parish.
@@ArkangilosI’ve only ever really conversed with one rad trad.. I scolded him for attacking a woman who had sadly had an abortion in her teens for which she had real regrets and a sadness in her life that would be I guess there for her whole life.. this guy was screaming that she was a murderer and I mean screaming. I tried to reason with him but to no avail.. I was disgusted by his behaviour
I think the problem is mostly with the troublesome “Trads” (not the humble, charitable ones) it’s not their confidence that’s the problem. It’s the fruit of their confidence and supposed “true” faith: Anger, division, attacking good and holy people, pride, lack of mercy, lack of charity. If that’s “real” Catholicism, no thanks. That’s where many people like myself are coming from. And I lean heavily toward a more “traditional” expression of the faith myself. But not at the cost of charity. I’m sure being confronted with a confident Catholic can be off putting for lukewarm Catholics but for those of us who take things seriously, we don’t mind confidence as long as it’s tempered by charity and prudence.
you are 💯 right
I liked most of your post except one part. Your statement of "but for those of us who take things seriously..." is an example of the very language and attitudes to which you claim to object. Many "lukewarm" Catholics take things VERY seriously. They are, in fact, lukewarm for a wide variety of genuine reasons.
You’re not being very charitable in your description of what you dislike about certain trads. Aha. See what I did there? Think about it. Charity doesn’t mean what you think it means. Sometimes it’s a sword, stabbing and cutting. Remember, God’s word is like a two edged sword.
I agree 100%. Reasonable, loyal, charitable trads need to get a voice, instead of letting the extremists speak for all trads. Extremists have basically destroyed traditionalism and they have effectively brought Traditionis Custodes on the whole Church.
Hey Brian, thanks for calling out your chat a bit. I noticed that too and was alarmed. You really have earned my profound respect by having the fortitude to call out your own supporters.
And yes I'm a trad, I wear my veil. I wear it because I should be humble in His presence. I try to wear modest clothes at church out of respect and I love incense and altar servers and biblical songs. I love that we end mass by praying the St Michael prayer. I thank God he led me to move to this parish, I prayed for it and He indeed delivered a good parish for us.
Most of NO masses in Philippines are like this. Its NO in USA that are lukewarm because no one truly participates in it even the Priests. People going more to TLM than helping NO become more holy made it worse.
I met trads whose behaviour almost drove me to abandon the traditional movement; but I also agree there are a lot of folks who love to claim all of them are snobbish and unkind folks.
I'm relatively traditionalist, and I think we ought to preserve the great beauty and reverence of the old forms of the mass; what worries me is how fast many are ready to point the issues in the "traditions" camp and how instead they do not comb with the same attention the modernist encampment.
Same. I attend an FSSP liturgy currently. I grew up with the NO. I had a recent experience with another traditional Catholic that almost made me walk away from the whole thing. That’s how hurtful it was. So, I do 💯 agree with the assent that trads are unkind and I don’t want to have anything to do with them. I am here for the TLM and for the Eucharist.
@Cocci Nelle those who were always insulting, those who were always behaving as holier-than-thou, those who hated with a burning passion the Novus Ordo even when respectfully celebrated...those who, 90% of the times online, seemed to exhude a sense of smug and virulent hatred for all those they deemed "low tier Catholics".
Thanks be to God they are a small group, but they are...very vocal, very "noisy".
Also...per caso italiano/a?
One problem I have noticed is that trads and "liberal Catholics" both refuse to acknowledge the fact that they have completely different premises and therefore aren't able to communicate with each other. For example, trads think tough love is important, while the other camp interprets tough love as hatred. If the exact same thing is called love by one side and hatred by the other side, it's impossible for them to communicate and understand each other.
Very good points! This is exactly how I feel.
That is a very good point
@@ntmn8444 It's basically the same problem the broader Western society currently suffers from. However, I think the advantage we as Catholics have is that we have our own rich and precise language, so we have to need to learn our faith.
By definition liberal Catholics aren't even Catholic. So their opinion regarding the church is basically irrelevant. They believe in abortion, sodomy marriage, contraception, women priests, the list goes on. They are de facto heretics and outside the church
@@philc6068 : I don't believe in any of that stuff yet I consider myself liberal. Be careful which bucket you place people in. The devil's purpose is to create division within the Catholic church. Don't be an enabler.
By coincidence I attended my first Latin mass one week before this controversy. Although I was lost several times, despite having a missal, I was struck at the reverence before, during, and after the mass. The choir was ethereal. I had also never witnessed communion received solely kneeling at a rail before. I attend my parish because it is in my community, but I will return once a month to the Latin mass to learn it, increasingly be able to participate.
I was confirmed as an Adult into a Latin Mass Parish just this Past April. I love my Parish And right now I'm exceedingly frightened for its future.
@@MegaMackproductions Don't worry Jesus is running His Church. Pray the rosary for Pope Francis and Christ's Church. During our 2,000 year old history we have had lots of problems hear and there, but we have survived and will be here until the end of time. Be close to our Holy Mother Mary, the mother of God. She'll guide you and make you closer to her Son. God bless you brother.
As for those"trads" who are "divisive," just maybe it's because of how the non-trads have treated us for the last 51 years. You know, more of a reaction than an inherent attitude. 🙄
100% FACTS
Humm and that is why so many traditional Catholic have broken away from communion with Rome same as protestantism , heretics .
What’s a non-trad? If you believe in Jesus’s real presence, if you believe in following God’s commandments, if you believe God is one, and to treat other people with dignity is honoring God, then you ARE a real Catholic, you ARE traditional. I so despise that to be considered traditional, you have to exclusively attend one mass over the other.
@@rebeccaanderson5626 and yet, the moto proprio targeted those who are still in communion with Rome...strange.
@@rebeccaanderson5626 Protestantism started over rejection of Doctrine and subjective Scripture "interpretation". Same with the heretical sects of ancient times.
But there's got to be more to the Catholic Church if it can survive so many bad Bishops (inc bad Popes). ;P
I grew up without understanding why we do what we do in Mass. 12 years of Luke warm Catholic schooling and a church in my wife’s town that was so non traditional that we didn’t even have a cross in the opening procession. It wasn’t that distinguishable from a Protestant service.
My son went to a preschool at a Methodist church, and it occurred to me how similar their church was to some modern Catholic Church buildings. When I was looking for a parish when I moved, I couldn’t believe how hard it was sometimes to find a crucifix or tabernacle. It seems sometimes we’re so afraid to appear CATHOLIC. Why?
I don’t know. I guess because of the neg. image in the public’s perception. I heard a priest refer to those churches as St. Mary Magdalene’s, “they’ve taken my Lord and I know not where to find him.”
Christian compassion and courage demand that we acknowledge and ask forgiveness for our brothers' faults, even if we ourselves aren't guilty of them.
That's a great statement.
What? Can you explain that in a bit more detail? I'm trying to wrap my head around your statement, and I think I might be misunderstanding, because it sounds like narcissistic arrogance to believe that I can obtain forgiveness on behalf of someone else's sin. Either that, or it is condescension from the highest plain as I "look down" upon my brothers. Perhaps I've completely missed your point.
Can you provide scripture or statements from the catechism or church fathers to back your point?
That simply cannot be done, John Paul II's flaky ideas notwithstanding. All you're doing in that case is ACCUSING your brothers and setting yourself up as their SUPERIOR. The devil is very subtle! The most that can be done is to pray and make sacrifices for their conversion.
I began my conversion 20 years ago. I received my sacraments 11 years ago. I began my transition to traditional Catholicism about 4 years ago. Thinking back on all of my interactions with other Catholics, I have to say that *all* of the cantankerous others have been Church-of-Nice/modernist/leftist - they were nice until they encountered confident orthodox Catholics, at which points they melted down and bashed those confident orthodox Catholics for their “disunity”. I recently discovered that several unidentified parishioners at my previous modernist parish have branded me a “rebel” and warn others away from me; I’m happy - not cantankerous - to be scorned for the sake of His truth.
However, I admit that I get cantankerous with my comments here on TH-cam, where almost no one personally knows me. 😅
The very existence of "an alternative church" will put the modernists on the defensive, because the very fact that you exist is a statement that says that they are wrong. Nobody likes to be told that they are "wrong". So, it really cuts both ways. But I don't think that getting rid of the trads is the answer. They will just go underground. And yes, I have been cantankerous on you tube, too!
About 7% of parishes in the US have had TLM up until now.
But the way the internet portrays the news it more like 50%.
We attempted to establish a TLM in AZ 2 years ago and the priests and bishop shot it down. No surprise the bishop’s recent letter celebrated the clamp down of TLM as it “was in the spirit of unity.”
@@commercialrealestatephilos605 they were correct on that.
Pat Aherne th-cam.com/video/Z3GctUvPtek/w-d-xo.html we shall see. Polar opposite message coming from my former diocese.
Odd that His Holiness comes down hard on Traditional Catholics and calls us to accompany James Martin.
Its only odd if you don't understand his goal. There is a perspective from which it makes perfect sense. Jesus warned of false prophets and told the sheep how to identify them, "By their fruits yee shall know them"
Fr. James Martin, though he has made theological errors we all know, has publicly said he accepts all Church teaching. He's just one man. However, when I think of the Vigano/Taylor Marshall/etc. spectacles, using the TLM as part of a weapon to undermine Vatican II and attack Pope Francis' teaching, this move by Francis is spot on. Unity in the Ordinary Form is the way forward, including acceptance of Vatican II.
@@angelicdoctor8016 how can Fr. James Martin accept all church teaching when he openly pushes heresy?
@@SuperBalrix I think being careful about the "heresy" label is important (since only the pope can label in that way); no doubt Fr. Martin has needed, and maybe still does need, theological correction; still, he publicly has stated he does not challenge Church teaching
@@angelicdoctor8016 Grooming is not only theological error.
Unity cannot be achieved by force, that's the mistake of Francis. The Passion of the Church continues.
Also is wise to not label all traditionalists as sede vacantists, who also divide the Church.
What are sedevacantists? Heretics?
“Love is the act of the will”. Amen. Yes, love is a choice.
That's a dangerous statement
Nope
No, you can't fall in love with someone or something. Even with God. You might worship and obey him, but you can't just love him by choice. And btw you don't control your will
It's of no use to be "trad", to do beautiful chants, to do Mass in the right way if then we don't do CHARITY and LOVE. Are we helping the poor? (and I mean, with your own hands) Are you feeding the hungry? Are you looking at your friends and family with love and understanding? If these things aren't there, the rest is just a political ideological thing, it's not from God, it's not Love, it's a devil joke that comes from pride and to get a reason to be special.
Unfortunately I must say this can happen among trad circles, but I'm not saying that's a rule. Sin and demons are everywhere, that's why we have to exercise charity, humility and obedience. All these 3 things are very tempted when being a "trad"
I agree with this.
Hi Brian,
I going to try and write a diplomatic post, but I'm too tired.
I'm conservative and traditional. Despite being Catholic for only about 8 years, I grew up among conservative Christians my entire life. I have been active in conservative politics, etc.
You will be hard pressed to find a more anti-modern, anti-liberal person than me.
Conservatives can sometimes come off as harsh unintentionally because they are assertive etc, as you say. However, the simple fact is that a lot of conservatives (and Trads) are simply self-righteous jerks and hypocrites.
One of the things I realized in my experience among conservatives (before ever becoming Catholic) was that conservatism attracts its own unique set of sins and dysfunctions. Liberalism has its set as well, but many conservatives think that being ideologically right equates to being morally good and holy. This is not the case at all. Conservatives, on the whole, are just as messed up as liberals, they are just usually messed up in different ways.
For one thing, focusing on things like traditional Liturgy and Sacraments is often a great way to avoid looking at yourself in the mirror of God's Truth. It's much easier to feel good about yourself because you go to Latin Mass, than it is to actually embrace humility, obedience, and charity.
Trads are prone to forgetting that even though the Sacraments always provide Grace by the very fact that they have been performed, that grace is not fruitful without cooperation on the part of the recipient. The Eucharist is the source and summit of the Christian life, but it will do nothing for you if you don't willfully cooperate with Grace God gives.
I have seen trads lie, slander, deliberately ignore truths that don't fit with their preferred agenda, condemn people to hell over political differences... and then claim that they were doing all that in charity because telling the Truth is charity.
I have seen trads sing the praises of saints who were opposed by corrupt or mistaken Church authorities, and responded with meek obedience, and then seen them turn around and slander and violently attack their bishop or priest. All the while feeling justified because "they are just telling the truth" and "clarity is charity".
One of the things I find the most sadly humorous is the idea that conservatives and trads aren't divisive. Again, I've seen good traditional Catholics tear each other apart, gossip, and back-bite each other, over changing the furniture arrangement in the Narthex. Every time there has been even a small change at our Parish, there have been people so upset about it that they either left the parish, or engaged in gossip and attacking people over it.
It would only be a mild exaggeration to say that a good definition of a conservative or a traditionalist is a person who upon finding a fellow who's beliefs match his own 99%, will get angry and condemn that person over the 1% difference.
Back when I was a protestant some of us actually joked about this because we recognized our own tendency to be divisive and tear fellowships apart over small details etc. In fact, one of the things that started my journey back to the Traditional Faith is that the Church I was part of split over the fact that some people were tired of the minister preaching about the same topics all the time. There wasn't even a theological difference, we literally believed 100% the same doctrines, it was purely over they were unhappy with the sermon topics not being diverse enough.
One of the things that has stood out to me about many of the Trads I've seen, is how ironically protestant they are in their attitudes.
In closing, Scott Hahn, who is Opus Dei and attends the Traditional Latin Mass, has said on a few occasions that many of the 'Rad Trads' he has encountered seemed to be "mad Trads" but he wants to be a "glad Trad". This is really what we need. The Tradition is Truth, and we can't live without it. However, Traditionalists are often the biggest enemy and impediment to the real Truth of Tradition. If you are not transformed by the Tradition, then there is no point in it.
I expect evil people to do evil things. I expect liberals to be corrupt and to push false teachings. They are, at best, deceived so what else can they do? As a result I don't often waste my time focusing on what they are doing.
By comparison I often come down harder on conservatives and traditionalists because they claim to have the Truth, and the Tradition is True. If they really had it, and really believed it, and lived it, they would not be what they often are. I expect people who have the truth to be better and so I am often disappointed with the reality.
I'm all fort the Traditional Latin Mass, but on a certain level, I don't care how traditional you are, or what your views on Mass are, if you can't love your neighbor.
Indeed. If these attitudes become vicious, borne out of vice, instead of charity they become disordered. I agree that there is are a unique set of problems in the trad community (of which I’m a member).
EXACTLY!!! Thanks so much for the comment! I hope everyone reads it!
Thanks Josh!
EWTN had a great discussion with Cardinal Muller, Cardinal Burke and others about the motu proprio, Traditionis Custodes. There are two parts, I highly recommend both of them. Basically sums up my opinion on the whole matter, which is the Holy Father made a mistake and misunderstood the loyal people of the Church and I pray that he will realize that.
He made no mistake. His intention is to get rid of the Tridentine Mass, “Unity” is just a fig leaf. He will not change his mind.
Pray for the Pope to realize the mistake. Pray for unity and not to fall into schism over this.
Loyal people of the Church do not cast doubt on the validity and inspiration of an ecumenical council convened by a saintly pope, concluded and ratified by another saintly pope, and resulting in documents agreed on by about 100% of the world's bishops after they invoked the assistance of the Holy Spirit.
@@Athmoneus even the elect will be deceived
CCC 675
Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.
With complete respect, and I really do mean that, I’m attend a TLM parish that is less than a 1/2 a mile from an Ordinary Form parish. I have never heard our Priests tell our parishioners to have nothing to do with the other parish. They have. We have never told the other parish that they can’t hear Mass in their form. They have. We have never made them fill out forms saying that they believe our Mass is valid. They have. Even though the stats show that only 17%of people who attend that liturgy believe in the True Presence. So I have to ask: who’s toxic? Who’s rigid? Sorry but calling us ‘toxic’ is just gaslighting pure and simple. Remember that time the Pope issued a Motu Proprio restricting the Novus Ordo because he just doesn’t like those people? Oh wait…I’m remembering this wrong I think.🤔
Been attending reverent NO masses for over 60 years. Attended a TLM for the last two years but have recently returned to my parish where I live. Both reverent all kinds of folks in both locations. God can judge them. I am called to love them and pray for them and the priests and the Church, not be a critic. God can take care of those He puts in charge. I trust Him.
There is nothing wrong with having confidence as being a traditional Catholic, that shows faith in God. It's okay if others show confidence in what they believe in, traditional Catholics have the same right. A true Christian (Catholic), will not fit into this world's ideologies, (Romans 12:2).
Many people only knows about N O. They also have that right to defend their knowledge of the faith.
@@Krafanio So, what are you getting at?
@@Krafanio So what is your point?
If another person's piety and devotion bother you it says far more about you than it does them.
But some people are not pious they are arrogant and border on sedevacantism.
There's a difference between piety and devotion and mocking, belittling and attacking those whom you believe are undermining the faith.
@@takmaps those wouldn't be the people that I am talking about. If we're bring heretics into it that's an entirely different conversation.
@@chocolate-eq6jn Yes. And?
@@WhiskyJax I'm getting pretty hungry. I think I'll have a TROLLhouse cookie.
I'm put off by Trads who tell me they go to the real mass....I'm a daily mass go-er, father of 9 children and love the church. I am very well cathecized but, man, just go away. That being said, I love them anyway. I have no issue with TLM and can see the food that it is doing. Just step off the high horse for a minute!
Exactly!
I attend the TLM and routinely get called a schismatic, a Pope-hater, divisive, rigid, etc. So I can relate.
I just shrug it off and recognize there are cranks in all corners. But we should respect each other, including providing the particular missal that speaks to each.
Cheers friend.
@@tedmurphy63 exactly! It feels we're on the defensive, b/c as we suspected, we are under constant attack, as proven by the Pope's recent decree. This is not new. We've been beat up & banned & then "allowed" to have "our little mass" for decades now. It means driving over an hour each way every weekend & 1st Fridays & Saturdays to worship as our ancestors. I do that w/ my flock of kids as well. Sometimes we have to move b/c new bishops have new bias against tradition. Not only that, but we take in 12K per weekend at our tiny church, while the Novus Ordo parish we sometimes attend in town only takes in $1500-$2000, & that's w/ 2 parishes. We invest & rebuild high altars & communion rails, along with beautiful changes to our parish, only to be moved & have it ripped out. Our FSSP priest met with every family individually during covid (16 hr days or more), while our Novus Ordo priest (who is conservative), would see NO ONE! Even for confession. Then our FSSP priest are bashed & mistreated. Made to choose against their conscious. Sad
@@Liquidforce360 so true friend. We have been persecuted for decades so this, in some ways, isn’t new. But of course the motu proprio is a blow. But I’m confident because we continue to grow stronger and I think we will prevail.
God Bless you and your family.
The smallest percentage of the church is really bugging you? Doesn’t sound like anyone said you’re not a ‘real Catholic,’ but that you go to the Novus Ordo, a mass designed by freemasons and protestants.
A mass that is less than 60 years old.
A mass that did not develop doctrinally, but was invented in a revolution to destroy the faith.
Praise God you love God, and were able to foster a Catholic home in that environment. You are an anomaly. But thank God for it.
You are a part of the majority, faithful Catholics Who attend the mass of all ages, the mass that every single saint in history has participated in - are the minority. The minority get vocal in speaking truth in charity because the majority, (not you necessarily) are participating in the destruction of the Catholic faith by their complicit inaction.
Hi Brian. Thanks for your thoughts on this. I'm a "semi-trad", I guess you would say, I go to the Latin mass, but I've shied away from making connections from people because of some of the things I've seen in trads. I think this is a multi-layered problem, and while I agree with all you've said, I think there's also an element of Trads that are angry, because they are tired and frustrated by the misunderstanding of the masses of what they have experienced as Truth, and this can come out as judgmentalism, abusiveness and derision. As trads, we need to hold the line for morality, because the world will not, but we need to do this through lovingly standing our ground. There is a way to be firm but be Christ-like, and asking the Lord for the grace to find this balance should be a practice everyone observes.
I call myself “Traddish.” But honestly, I’ve been connected to more and more families at church, and I think there might be 2 I met who would be considered “fringe.”
I think there is a large percentage of people who have come into the traditional Catholic group recently who are primarily Conservative, and Christians secondarily, and they are offended to find that there are Catholics who prioritize Christ.
I’m a Catholic catechist for 20 years, been a Catholic for 40+ years. I’m also an amateur apologist. I like listening to your point of view, Brian.
But I’m a bit disappointed because I think you might have over simplified why some people who (I being one) adhere to all the teachings of the church regarding faith and morals, and who admire the value of traditions that would help us get closer to God, would still have issues with the so-called “trads”.
For me, it is primarily because many of these “trads” I’ve seen are acting with:
1. A sense of elitism. They behave or preach or “evangelize” without charity as if they just want to tell sinners they are wrong with the sole purpose of boasting but not from an angle of love.
2. Open disrespect or even disdain for the Pope. Their word choice is divisive and their strong opinions are silo’ed, to a point that is leading Catholics away from the Church and/or implicitly preaching that it is ok to doubt and disobey the Magisterium (be it accidental or intentional)
3. Lies. Some spread the lie that there could be Pope who are heretics - meaning teaching heresies in official capacity (e.g., ex cathedra). They cited Pope Honorius of course. But they intentionally twisted the story of Pope Honorius to suit their agenda that popes can be heretics; ergo insinuating that Pope Francis can be and very much would be or is already a heretic. Even more so, many allude that Pope Francis is an Anti-Christ or even THE Anti-Christ. A pope can’t be an Anti-Christ. Refer to Jimmy Akin’s video on the subject matter. And Pope Honorius isn’t a heretic nor he taught heresies. See Catholic Answers article on Pope Honorius.
4. Chauvinistic. Quite a few hold the view that nuns or women in general should just run orphanages, schools, cook, knit, and pray and should have no place in preaching (general preaching and I’m not referring to delivering homily in mass) and providing spiritual guidance. That is just ridiculous. The greatest saint is a woman. The apostle to the apostles is a woman.
Et cetera…
In other words, many trads I met believe/act/think very un-Christian like.
I am not saying all trads are like this. Some are very pious and are faithful to the Church. But some really loud and prominent ones who seemingly are the most influential are the speaking voice of the trads. If you r not these trads that I have a problem with, I urge you to speak up against these divisive trads with disapproval. Otherwise, your silence essentially means that you r condoning these toxic behaviour and opinions.
That’s why when people asked me whether I’m a conservative/traditional Catholic (because I profess to all teachings of the Church on faith and morals), I answered them “I’m just Catholic, neither traditional nor liberal. Just Catholic following Christ and His Church.” A real Catholic does not need to feel they belong to the traditional camp or the liberal camp. Being Catholic is being Catholic. Period.
Can’t say amen enough to this.
I have met trad’s that would qualify as obnoxious and/or “holier than thou” over the fact they attend TLM. That being said, I have met many more who are wonderful, kind, God fearing and God loving. I don’t find TLM parishes to have any more or any less “obnoxious” parishioners that the typical NO parish. I go to TLM maybe 3 - 4 times per year (largely to satisfy my wife). I do observe greater reverence there than in my own NO parish. However, I also know of a few NO parishes that have a great deal of reverence. The difference seems to be the pastor and the congregation that these reverent pastors attract to their parish. So, while I am not a TLM person, I respect the sincere wish of TLM people to attend what they see as a better option for their spiritual life. I fail to see why all Catholics should be shoe-horned into a single liturgical option, especially when considering we already have some two dozen different rites (and accompanying liturgical forms). In my unambiguous opinion Pope Francis has made a serious mistake that will hurt the Church.
Oh Francis - why are you so divisive ?
Good that you mentioned obeying the legitimate authorities. But I think most American Catholic Apologetes on YT exposed a pretty dismissive view on the Motu Proprio from the Pope, and therefore on the authority of the Pope. That was not good I think.
There are a lot of good points in this video, however I am under the impression that a lot of Latin Mass Catholics look down on Catholics who attend the Novus Ordo. Novus Ordo Catholics, however, don't look down on Latin Mass Catholics most of the time. A lot of Latin Mass Catholics who I have met or talked to don't believe in Vatican II and trash talk the changes made.
What's really toxic in the church is "us" vs. "them" thinking. All of this tribalism is pointless and silly in our Church.
Yes and no. Mainly no when vast majority in NO (including celebs and politicians) don’t believe basic but foundational teachings of the faith. The erosion in the sacraments has occurred over decades. Now the church is losing souls. How many who left, lived a sacramental life before leaving? Why would any Catholic attempting to raise their children in the Faith (save the few traditional NO parishes) give up the TLM? For what, so their children can join the growing number of nones?
Well the Catholic Church is literally on the verge of schism in Germany and is in big trouble in India as well . The church refusing to apologize for the acts of the Portuguese inquisition and shielding Bishop Franco who raped a Nun has affected the Catholic population here .
In Goa, India
According to the 1909 statistics , the total Catholic population was 293,628 out of a total population 365,291 (80.33%). Now Catholics make 25% of the Population here and is expected to further decline as more and more people leave the Church due to the Sex Abuse Cases being made public around the world
Omg yes! We are one. Our creed is the same, no matter if you say it in the vernacular or in Latin. We are one. Out of many, we are one. Catholic means universal.
Not when the N.O. started the "feud".
The tribalism that St. Paul addressed in 1 Cor 1:10-15 was pointless and silly. The tribalism happening nowadays is a result of the escalating war between good and evil - hardly pointless or silly.
I was born in 1972 so my experience of mass was post Vatican II. I would like to post this question, if Catholic parishes said the Novus Ordo in Latin, had more incense, knelt for communion, etc would that suffice for a Catholic currently attending a Tridentine mass? If not, then the reason behind wanting the Tridentine mass becomes theological. This is the place I think is dangerous, not just I think I'm better than you type of thought, but refusing to accept the Holy Spirit's influence in the ecumenical council of Vatican II. By refusing this you start to pull yourself away from the true Church and that is the dangerous path.
We all have personal preferences on what we like and dislike but when it comes to the heart of the Catholic faith, the mass, our personal preferences should not outweigh how God chooses to guide the Church through history. We need to be humble and willing to be moved by the Spirit. It is also important to remember that obedience is integral to our faith and believe wholeheartedly that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church We do not know everything and we must rely on the Holy Spirit working through the magisterium. If not we become like Protestants starting new churches when there are disagreements.
Lastly, how can the Latin Rite Catholic Church function as One in the future if we have theologically different ways to worship God? It will enviably cause a new sect to form and the church would split along this line. We would still have 99% of the same beliefs but we would differ like the Greeks, Russians, Byzantines, etc. I don't think the Greek Eastern Rite Church has completely different masses to attend and choose from. If we are one we need to worship as one.
Omg well said!!! Great great great comment.
I'm a Byzantine Catholic, but I have gone to my fair share of Latin masses especially since the pandemic. From my perspective, the most important renovation that needs to happen at NO parishes is that the Roman Canon once again becomes the default Eucharistic Prayer, at least for Sundays and Holy Days. This is the foundation of the Roman rite, just at the Anaphoras of St John Chrysostom and St Basil the Great are the foundations of the Byzantine rite. The rest of the auxiliary signs of devotion, like incense and communion rails, will come in time, but only when a true love of tradition is returned to the faithful of the Latin church.
I appreciate what seems to be a sincere question. I’d like to address the first part of your comment. I was born in 1989 by the way.
Respectfully, as trads, we don’t attend the TLM for the so-called “smells and bells”. We attend because of the structure of the Mass. I grew up with the new Mass and the Society of St John Cantius is a great example of a reverently celebrated novus ordo. However, my preference is for the TLM because of its structure (the prayers at the foot of the altar, the rubrics and precision of the priest, the increased amount of silence which facilitates my prayer, the last gospel…).
This is a good opportunity to highlight that many of us would rather attend a small and basic TLM to a novus ordo with the smells and bells. I was traveling two years ago for work and I had a choice between a TLM in a small ugly church or a reverent novus ordo. I attended the TLM instead.
Another small but important point. I cannot attend Mass and watch lay people receive communion on the hand. I understand it’s “allowed” but it’s scandalous to us to attend the TLM. It’s the body of Our Lord and lay people with unconsecrated hands are touching Him. This is scandal to us. Somewhat random but that’s one of the unique differences that prevent many of us from an approach of “hey why can’t you just integrate into the novus ordo?”
Lastly, I’ve heard some recently bring up a seeming compromise. Such as “hey TLM’ers, what if we had chant and Latin and incense, communion on the tongue, etc”. I commend this effort but it doesn’t account for two important issues. One is that for years (even pre-Summorum Pontificum), trads were persecuted for even mentioning these kinds of things. Even today if we were to grant your premise about incorporating things within the TLM into the novus ordo, many bishops simply forbid it. For example, a Bishop just came out and banned Roman chasubles, birettas, even linen altar cloths and mass ad orientem. Many bishops, priests, and people (usually over age of 60) simply hate anything resembling Catholic tradition. The biggest hurdle to “trad” up novus ordo masses would be non-TLM people.
In short, we trads have been persecuted for 60 years. We don’t stand in the way of the novus ordo and it’s not about the smells and bells to us. We simply want the respect and dignity to attend the Mass which nourishes our faith and draws us closer to God. Thats it.
@@tedmurphy63 ? why the long explanation?
@@unitedhearts1341 did you not read the original comment?
Thank you for your words and thoughts. We learned in our traditional mass last Sunday that our newly installed Bishop would continue with the TLM. There was a visible, emotional, respectful, and thankful sigh of relief. Our pastor then gave us the very same wise words that you provide at the end of your thoughts and there many heads nodding in agreement. I will also say that your commentary on lukewarmness and being cold or hot, is absolutely correct. I started following your channel only recently and I appreciate your calm, reasoned catechetical responses.
I adhere to Catholic traditional teachings but still open to new upcoming Christian ideas, the way St. John Cardinal Newman has taught.
With regards to liturgy, Novus Ordo and Traditional Latin Mass are both good as long as it lead us to the central person in the Mass, our Lord Jesus Christ.
I.m.o., being traditional does not mean being negatively critical and disobedient to the current Magisterium of the CC.
There is also the righteous anger of one whose birthright was stolen. In my own case, I went to 17 years of Catholic school (including kindergarten and college) the Faith was presented as a poor pop psychology mode of living; the only time in all those years that transubstantiation was mentioned was in my final year in college in an elective philosophy course; so I had no idea what the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was beyond the mamby-pamby gathering of the people of God. It wasn't until I read the books my dad had when he converted from Lutheranism in the 50s did I begin to learn the truth and beauty of the authentic Catholic Faith. That was 40 years ago and at first I was angry and wanted everyone to know what the fraud was that was perpetrated on us. Now I do what I can to promote authentic Catholism without anger or resentment which is difficult, as there are so many reasons for it.
Moderation in virtue is best; the devil always tempts to excess or defect.
You don't become a Saint through moderation. At least not in perfecting virtue.
I wouldn't call it moderation in virtue. I'd either call it keeping virtue from becoming vice or moderation in everything including moderation.
@@MegaMackproductions tell that to an exorcist 😂
@@christophersnedeker2065 that's fundamentally saying the same thing.. if virtue is not moderated it becomes vice.
@@BindingTheYoke what does that even mean? Perfecting virtue is a good goal.
In truth these Catholics are the most kind people in the world even thought the nice people think of them as harsh. Nice people are indifferent to the Truth. They just want to be loved by the world.
And there we have yet another example of binary thinking.
As someone who is very bold and confidant, I don't think trads being rude is just confidence. I know they are not all rude. I don't think that. I do think, and know, that I have encountered very rude and judgemental traditionalists--and a lot of them.
I'm not a traditionLIST.
I just know enough to protect the tradition.
Do your research well.Novus Ordo is more Protestant than Catholic. You don't knoa what tou r taking aboutlFranxis ia divisive.What has he done abour the Church in Germany and Homosexual James Martin S.J?shame on you.
@@marialeba6983 Pray for the Church. You weren't called to be a critic or to judge the Vatican and it's Bishops etc. God can take care of them. Follow Christ, love Him with all your heart and love others. That is a big task for sure. God bless.
This is a great video Brian. I am not a traditional Catholic, this video helped me see the virtue and positive things in traditional Catholicism, but you also made a fair assessment on the potential risks or traps that could emerge such as pride and disobedience, which I think may lead to division.
As a traditional Catholic, thank you for having an open mind and showing some love for us. God bless you my friend.
Another great video Brian, keep up the solid content!
The only reason I watch this channel as a non-Catholic, is the assertion of Tradition. I have no respect for those who discredit or deviate from tradition for the sake of Satan-backed progressivism. On other hand, I respect those who value their traditions even if I don't adhere to them myself. Such as why I watch this channel. Do people fear God more than Man, or Man more than God? The answer for most, is Man. Such people are apostates or worse, wolves in sheeps clothing acting as a seditious element within religions.
There's a similar argument with Conservatism. Libertarians whining that Conservatives oppose a Porn Star calling herself conservative and attending a conservative youth event. "Big Tent" they cry. No. If you have to include degenerate elements that are antithetical to your values, you have lost and there is no reason to continue existing as a "Big Tent". You become diluted and aimless. Conservatism isn't worth preserving if it's only protecting whatever new modern progressive element they previously resisted, to the point that they now accept pornographers among their youth.
Likewise, a Church is not worth preserving if it loses its values and becomes complacent and tolerant toward sin, then becomes just another progressive-liberal den of the world and the opinions of men.
If you're not a Catholic then you're already in satan backed relativism.
@@wolfthequarrelsome504 Goes both ways bud, I obviously view my church as the truth, and I'm extremely far from relativism. I'm far from a degenerate atheist liberal and my faith is unshakeable.
So…let me get this right. I believe in one God, I believe in Jesus’s real presence in the Eucharist, I believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God, I believe in the commandments, the Holy Spirit, the Catholic Church and the good things it does for the world, I believe in helping others, I believe abortion is evil, but yet…my going to a NO mass somehow makes me a “liberal Catholic”? This is making my head spin. It makes zero sense to me. We literally believe in the SAME exact things, we literally profess the same Creed every Sunday, but my values aren’t the same as yours because I choose to go to a vernacular mass? Please, I want to understand this! Our values as Catholics haven’t changed and won’t change just because we worship now in the vernacular. This is just not true.
You would like Franz Jaeggerstader (I probably butchered his last name). World War II Austrian, out of everyone else in his village who opposed Hitler. Not yet canonized. I think Vision Video channel has a small documentary on him.
@@ntmn8444 One word: Bugnini. (And then there was Bernadin.)
When you receive Our Lord, do you receive on the hand, and then administer the Most Blessed Sacrament to yourself? (To do so is a sacrilege, by the way.)
Do you go along the aisle ways behind those in front of you, who also receive in the hand and let drop particles of the Consecrated Host, trampling upon Our Lord who is now on the ground? (Ritual desecration of the Eucharist, on par with what goes on in the Satanic Black Mass, but within a church set apart to WORSHIP GOD)
God and the Angels can see it all, dear, even if you or I do not. And it grieves them most severely where it happens at all.
Just informing.
Did you even read that he watches this channel as a NON-Catholic..? Of course your values and beliefs are not going to be the same.
I think traditional catholics know what they have. I would identify myself as a traditional Catholic.
But I do not have access to the sacraments because my marriage is not with then the bounds of church.
I am working to resolve that but it hurts not being able to receive the sacraments.
But I understand the necessity of that.
If you can refrain from relations with your spouse, you are not sinning, and you are eligible to receive the sacraments.
@@chocolate-eq6jn if that were so then there would be no need for the annulment process. One would just need to go to Confession if they gave in to intimacy. Plus the scandal of living as husband and wife when they are not really husband and wife which would make their living together a public violation of the marriage covenant. Living together is part of the outward sign of the Sacrament of Matrimony that is seen by all as a Marriage. So living together but not truly married is a lie and theft as the privilege to cohabitate belongs only to the married. I've been there, it was a long and difficult path but I was able to get an annulment. At no point did the parish priest say we could receive the Sacraments before a decree of nullity was issued.
I want the latin mass but have no access to it. But when I listen to the voices in social media I hear a lot of self righteousness, I try to find traditional voices that don't sound so ... arrogant or angry, sorry but that is how the defenders of the latin mass sound sometime. I stand with you all, but I do worry that the latin mass is becoming an idol. Keep praying, keep witnessing and hopefully we can weather the storm of these bad leaders.
The Latin Mass is not an idol anymore than the Bible is. Arrogance and self-righteousness can be found in both traditionalist and modernist circles (just look at the modernists gloating over the motu proprio as if it were some sort of victory.) Certainly no group should be judged by the immoderate use of social media, which seldom brings out the best in anyone, of a few. Sin would be better dealt with pastorally.
We need to be GLAD TRADS
Wow, talk about re-enforcing stereotypes. Maybe - to those whom this might apply - they are "hard do stomach" because our society is full of "girly men."
I didn't use those words, but that's basically the thesis of this video.
men have been emasculated, yes.
@@BrianHoldsworth The Mamas and the Papas had a famous song in the sixties, "I Dig Rock and Roll Music" containing the great lyric: "And if I really say it - The radio won't play it." Keep up the good work.
Just an "oh by the way"....... Notice that all of these analysis of the depiction of Latin Rite attendees in the wake of PF new Moto Proprio are almost bending over backwards to affirm that 'yes, the Latin Mass attracts strange personalities who are often aggressively opinionated, and/or they look down their noses at the NO..... and certainly that can sometimes be the case, though as the video points out, correctly, often amplified. Now it has gone to the point of a stereotyped charicature.
BUT if anyone has ever delved into the comment section of America magazine - or NCR - Or listened to Novus Ordo priests talk about "the bad old days" (i.e. pre Vat II) which they are actually too young to remember...they would see much greater level of invectives. People of a traditional bent have put up with actual disdain, disparagement and vitriol for years, built on half truths at best, or out right lies, and one's only recourse was to send a letter to the bishop or the local bishop controlled Catholic newspaper, and of course those and other legit complaints have just been squashed.
So of course, now that people can comment, e.g., on some of the tripe a Bishop Barron puts out, there's inevitably going to be some "bite" in those sorts of comments. He'll allow some of that, to his credit, I'd say.
OTOH, America will simply squash all but
the most milquetoast "on the other hand" sorts of rebuttals to their mendacious and specious articles.
So again, the traditionalist is often much more balanced, but too often caving to the desires of these "new Church" types to agree to their terms, their paradigm, their lexicon, their "accepted facts" in any sort of relevant discussion.
@@zdogg8 To be honest with you, I think this answer is a complete cop out.
Your argument is based off of the false dichotomy that there are only Rad Trads and Liberals. This is just not true. There are plenty of Catholics who are neither liberals, nor Rad Trads.
You may also want to think about the fact that your defense basically boils down to "well the liberals are just as nutty as we are". Do you not see a problem with justifying the behavior of the Group who supposedly has the Truth, by saying that they are no worse than the apostate group?
It also needs to be pointed out that the Trads often resort to the "we're just being persecuted for telling the Truth." and the fact is this is false. I agree with Trads about a lot of stuff. But the fact is there are a lot of Trads who say stuff that isn't true. A lot of what Trads say about Vatican II, for example, is false. A lot of what Trads say about the Novus Ordo is false.
I don't agree with restricting the traditional Latin Mass. I'm not a fan of Pope Francis and I think what he's done is wrong and is a big problem.
However, the fact of the matter is that there are plenty of Trads really are divisive people who are spreading lies and false teachings about things like Vatican II and the Novus Ordo.
I appreciated this commentary. After converting to the faith, I became involved in my ordinary geographical parish for five years before discovering the traditional liturgy. In that time I met a few “anti-traditionalists” who were rather belligerent towards: any use of incense in the liturgy, any small use of the Latin language in the liturgy - even in the ordinaries which Vatican 2 suggests ought to be prayed by the people in Latin, chanting prayers in the vernacular in melodies unfamiliar to them, babies or children making noise during Mass, the idea that women cannot be priests, anything they could not “understand” during Mass, and the notion that the Mass does not exist “for us (the people).”
My point is that there are cantankerous, opinionated people of every stripe. The vast majority of traditionalists I’ve met in real life are not unpleasant or obnoxiously arrogant anymore than the vast majority of “ordinary” Catholics are.
Thank you for sharing your convictions. I married into a Catholic family, we had some instruction from a Priest and we were married. My experience growing up was celebrating Christmas and Easter (the Poinsettias and Lilies), in my family. My husband grew up going to church and attending Catholic school, however we did not practice the faith. My church experience was attending with friends or older siblings that became involved with different Faiths of Christianity. I could never understand that. I believed though, the public elementary school I attended Christmas Chorals were performed by each class, a great joy, as well as seeing such movies as "The King of Kings", and "The Song of Bernadette". I'm a believer, but you are right, there is much more to my story. Now I have great faith in God. Although, definitely a work in process, my journey is very complex. This topic on the Latin Mass seems like a good step towards unity. Mass is said in many languages, and traditional practices are much like different cultures. The family is the key, the family Christ has always been a wonderful and joyful. Prayer and the saving Grace of God has been my slow and on going conversion. Coming from great depths of despair and sorrow I began to trust in the Lord , God within, Jesus The Way, TheTruth and The Life. To all Peace , Faith, Hope, and Love. Medjugorje, 2013, praying became the common cord. Ave Maria! Thank you to Mary TV, that brings people together from around the world in peace and joy. The Blessed Virgin Mary is calling each and every soul to Jesus, Pray, Pray, Pray. Pope Francis and Pope Benedict probably agree, being friends and confiding with each other. G.B.B.G.U.B(God Bless Be Good Universal Being)
“Traditional” is a misnomer for this movement, because Catholic Tradition is to recognise Church Councils.
No, this movement is Fundamentalist. Attending the TLM does not make someone traditional.
@ Mike Lopez: The "Vatican II Council" never banned or limited the practice of the Traditional Latin Mass. In fact, some of the documents stated to preserve the use of Latin in the Holy Sacrifice of The Mass.
@@ChristianSaintSavior Those statements may be there but they have been butchered by the Modernist heretics.
Mike Lopez, It is better to be a fundamentalist than a Modernist heretic that only rips the Church Christ founded to pieces.
If Pope Francis wants us to follow Vatican II, why doesn't he enforce Gregorian chant, as VII called for it? Seems rather hypocritical.
Mike Lopez, Leaving aside for now that Vatican ll was hijacked, the well prepared 70 Documents of Vatican ll were started and completed by St. Pope John XXlll, the Modernists voted the real Council out and went on to create their own Council.
I am a Traditionalist and it means I try to follow all the teachings of the Church. Not in a watered-down nor diluted form. The Modernists have done away with almost all Divine Law. No, "Traditional" is not a misnomer. I don't know how you reason that out but I don't agree.
Brian I see scrupulosity as extremely common amongst traditionalists. I like your content, thankyou for taking the time to make all these incredibly valuable videos. I'd just like to bring to light the aforementioned and it's effect on the human psyche.
@Brian, thanks for this. I love and appreciate your thoughtful perspective on a range of issues.
As a convert I had no knowledge of the TLM for years. Then when I moved to another parish, I found out what it was all about. Honestly, it’s as close to heaven you will ever get. But I do love the NO mass. Our church brings a lot of traditions there too. Dealing with trads on line.. some of relentless on that the NO is fake. So I’ve seen the worst in trads and the worst of in liberal Catholics.
Robert Conquest’s Three Laws of Politics:
1. Everyone is conservative about what he knows best.
2. Any organization not explicitly right-wing sooner or later becomes left-wing.
3. The simplest way to explain the behavior of any bureaucratic organization is to assume that it is controlled by a cabal of its enemies.
That little nugget keeps popping up on the internet lately.
Why the 2 is so? It seems to be quite asymmetric…
@@alexanderpodgorski5449 In a single word- entropy.
In many more words- th-cam.com/video/p6LUjUbikkk/w-d-xo.html
I have never met a trad that is confrontational. The Latin Mass I attend are devout pious people. Be hot, my friends.
Only online. Never irl
Ever met a trad that dissents against Vatican II? Hmmmmmm ...
@@angelicdoctor8016 not irl. Most will tell you that the fruits of the council, that is the liberalities taken by bad actors in the Church citing Vatican II as justification, are their concern. It still seems to be a poor justification to suppress the traditional Mass. Far more often, I encounter liberal Catholics who approve of contraception, divorce, homosexuality, and even abortion. The statistics about Catholic be approval of those topics is damning (literally). Yet no one discusses suppression of the parishes where these heresies abound.
@@Acgijhffx The liberals need correction, that's for sure. Maybe by uniting in the reverent celebration of the NO, the tough conversations with the liberals can take place? Looking at the possibilities here ...
@@Acgijhffx I think the main problem is rejection of an ecumenical council (very serious) by an increasing number of "trads" - the liberals haven't done that, though they have sinned in other ways (that you note)
That was a really great, well thought out analysis of the situation. You are really growing and expressing ideas really well. Nice work! 🙂
I agree so much with this and it’s often lost on many in the church. Thanks Brian.
Maybe its because we are fed up of being attacked
I am a “trad” and the only experience of being attacked was, incidentally, by another trad. However, this was from some no name, no face, keyboard warrior, so I just let it go. But people allow their emotions to supersede their intellect in these matters. If anything, hopefully, this will result in an increase in virtue.
Always so eloquent. Thank you, Brian.
Pride is a sin we are all prone to falling in to- whether we are traditional Catholics or not. It is the original sin . There might be some traditional Catholics who might appear to be a bit toxic. Often it is because they have had to fend for themselves in face of intense persecution . But I do agree we all need to be careful not to fall into pride and presumption. The vast majority of traditional Catholics are the humblest souls who are in love with God. I know both. So this is from my own experience. TLM communities are so close knit and welcoming. There is genuine love and care there for each other. It is not that common in NO to see that kind of love and care for each other. There might be individuals who are warm and welcoming. But as a community, it is not the same.
Faith is a Holy Theological Virtue. We must be strong in Faith
Praying for the Restoration of Traditional Latin Mass. Thank you
or pray for God's will to be done?
@@angelicdoctor8016 why not both?
@@MegaMackproductions I think Francis has answered that question - his Motu Proprio is the answer actually
I'm having trouble in mt group of catholic friends because of this easy path, some may even tend to change their christian (roman) denomination just to not abind to the pope any more. I think what kind of sheep are we if we turn the back when the shepherd does something WE don't aprove. We would be traitors, those who only keep docile while pleased. And I will admit, I'm shaken by all this controversy too, but I can't let myself to be the bad sheep just because my will diverge from the rule of the Church or I would be just worshiping myself and my thoughts as the ultimate source of Goodness and Justice. This is what the devil wants most.
Gosh, your videos always surprise me with it's thought provoking content!
Relating to the converting for marriage thing...
I did just that decades ago with my first husband. I was loosely a general believer in a Higher Power, but didn't really have a religious identity. I dated and married a sweet Jewish man, who's family was secular but had the ethnic identity. We got married by a Reform rabbi, and before the wedding we took classes that would essentially get me converted. The problem is, I totally fell in love with Judaism. It was my first exposure to actual religion and found so much of it deep and compelling. (This btw, was when I first discovered Dennis Prager, by reading his book "9 Questions People Ask About Judaism", and have been a life long follower of his every since!)
The problem happened was when after we married, I, who was attempting to take it seriously, was pretty much ignored by my husband and his family who didn't want anything to do with actually practicing the religion, Doh! Yes, I was young and ignorant and full of ideals, but the reality was my "conversion" was really to make my husband and his family comfortable.
Please don't take this as me being hateful toward them. They are actually good hearted people, but his parents were of the generation where THEIR parents escaped pogroms in Russia chucked their religion, and just wanted to be Americans, but always remembering their heritage. My dear former mother in law was never taught anything about Judaism and her husband also wasn't religious. My ex husband never went to synagogue and didn't have a bar mitzvah (although most of his Jewish neighborhood friends did) So when I came along taking this seriously, they honestly didn't know what to do with me. Unfortunately, without the support, any interest and commitment wavered, but that's on me. To say it was a huge frustration was an understatement, of course it wasn't the only issue that tore our marriage apart.
Anyway, IF one is going to convert for marriage, I hope at the person your going to marry and hopefully the family is at least somewhat involved with their own religion, it's good to have the support and guidance. I weirdly ended up in a mixed of sorts and I've always heard they are difficult! At least in my personal experience it was indeed.
Just my 2 cents. :)
Traditional Catholicism is not toxic. But Rad Trads are.
Blind obedience to "authorities" is not asked of us though. That mentality creates environments of clericalism and abuse. We obey God, and the authorities when they exercise what God commands and accepts from that authority.
Amen, I have argued with others and they throw out the magisterium excuse. With all the scandals and outrages this pope has supported , they want us to pray , pay and obey and ignore the insults and corruption. They have destroyed the moral authority they should have.
There is a certain recent podcast by a certain group that covers this exact subject. It’s well worth checking it out if you haven’t seen it.
@@RickW-HGWT Obedience is a virtue only if oriented towards God, if you obey the devil then is not a virtue anymore. And true authority can only come from God thus only be Good, so if somebody gives you something bad or evil then that's not true authority coming through that person but lack thereof. In the name of obedience and authority the most horrendous abuses are being committed.
@@AprendeMovimiento Amen ! I am in the Los Angeles Archdiocese , the mahoney is retired in a parish in North Hollywood , read about him and his abuses , what infuriates me is when he is referred to as "excellency" and year after year is a speaker at the LA REC. No shame or contrition that I have seen, also Pope f made him a papal envoy , there is something wrong with that decision , I am sad that I can name more religious that I am ashamed of , the good ones help keep me going and give me strength.
@@RickW-HGWT well the good thing I have found in the Catholic Church is that the treasure of the fullness of truth is here. Actually the reason why I can know when to be obedient and how to follow authority is because the catholic church has taught that for sooo long, the problem of this globalized crisis is that we (including good hearted laity and priests) try to avoid the human aspect of the church "that is not Holy" but called to holiness. If we stop avoiding looking at the fallen humanity aspects of the Church we will be able to pursue holiness in a more honest way.
I think the biggest problem might that 'Traditional Catholicism' has come to be seen as synonymous with sedevacantism. Sedevacantists publicly identify themselves as 'Traditional' Catholics. This is muddying the issue. The Pope is right to worry about the link between the Latin Mass and those who reject Vatican II. I would love to have access to the Latin Mass, but I would need to know that the officiating Priest was in full Communion with the Church and not a sedevacantist himself. Apparently, this is not always the case. I used to self-identify as a 'Traditional' Catholic, but this 'label' has been appropriated to such an extent, that I now identify myself as a 'Conservative' Catholic because I feel the need to make it clear that, while I have some problems with aspects of Vatican II, I still consider the Vatican to be intact. Congratulations on your excellent commentaries.
I'm very happy I found your channel. Thanks for encouraging me to take a stand on what I believe
"No more than we should obey parents who are unworthy and ask us to do unworthy things, no more should we obey those who ask us to abandon our faith and to abandon all tradition." Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
Truth is Toxic.
A person who truly believes and is forward about it will always be seen as arrogant and self righteous.
I disagree with this.
The truth hurts and then it heals!
I just resubscribed and liked.
Thank you for a much needed broader perspective.
I'd love it if one day you make a video of why so many converts from Protestantism or "evangelicals" end up as "trads". I'd really love to see your point of view about that. Then it would be eye opening to see why so many craddle-catholics like myself have NEVER felt that the Church lost something after VCII while these converts do. Whatever is back there is ours to take, we don't need a label to take it, we just go and take it. The big difference, and what these type of videos tend to tip-toe around, is that a big number of these "trads" do not recognize what happened after VCII as Catholic, Sacred, Good, Sanctifying, inspired-willed-promoted-preserved-and-providentially-caused by God.
This would be a good time for serious self reflection on the part of traditionalists. What's happening is just the opposite. It's not for an excess of virtue that you're criticized. The claim that you are merely misunderstood because you speak with confidence and conviction that us normie Catholics just don't comprehend is exactly the sort of toxicity that's just been getting worse over the years.
Hello friend. I’d have to respectfully disagree. While it’s a good exercise for all Catholics to reflect and pray, the division you mention is simply an unfortunate misrepresentation. I don’t blame you at all, it’s a common caricature based on false reporting and a lack of understanding of trade in parishes every Sunday.
The most vitriolic behavior I’ve seen is from non-trad Catholics. I’ve been called every name in the book by them. Told I’m going to hell, I’m a schismatic, etc. All because I desire the beauty, reverence and piety of the TLM.
I appreciate the chance to express some comments. God Bless you my friend.
@@tedmurphy63 Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I was responding specifically to Brian's video beginning around min. 3;00 where he compares the commitment of those in traditional parishes with the apathy and lukewarmness of non TLM Catholics. He does end up by saying that Latin Mass goers shouldn't indulge in pride over being better. That doesn't help. Of course, I don't attribute these views to you. From the tone of your comment I feel sure your don't. Peace.
@@l.dennard772 ah I appreciate that context and it provides some warmth to your original comment which I really appreciate. :)
Is this not true? Which group tends to be more devout and hot in their faith?
It seems to me that the visible manifestation of Catholic traditionalism is mostly through words. Words are cheap. With modern technology, words are easy and mostly painless, - like what I am doing right now.
Whatever happened to "actions speak louder than words"?
Fifty years ago, being a Catholic traditionalist meant raising a large family or building a church or school or hospital. It meant joining a religious order or being happy if one of the children joined.
Where are the modern traditional Catholic actions that speak louder than modern traditional Catholic words? Where is the revival in traditional Catholic activities that require action, sacrifice, and hard work instead of mere words cast casually through the internet.
The first Christian's didn't get their formation from words so much as deeds - they got it from the physical witness of watching other Christians live their Christian lives.
Enough words already. They are too cheap.
I agree with your point, but bear in mind that outside the internet catholic traditionalists are indeed showing fruits. They have larger families, they contribute more to their parishes, they actually uphold the doctrines of the Church, they do charitable work, they evangelize... We can always do better but it's doing great.
St Francis of Assisi never said "Preach the Gospel always - when necessary use words"... His writings actually say exactly the opposite. To use words.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
If you think words are meaningless... Maybe you should ask the Alpha and Omega what He judges to be the case. Using words is a sharing in the creative acts of God (although unfortunately in modern times it is often impure, blasphemous, heretical etc).
I am not sure if you have ever going to a TLM mass…
@@aperta7525
I don't think words are meaningless. But I believe words are becoming too plentiful. We speak our words and feel like we have accomplished something.
A few years ago I made the effort to convert to Catholicism. That seemed like a big deal at the time. I had really accomplished something real.
But I haven't done much since. With all the talk floating around on the wings of technology, what I might say seems less relavant than something I might do right here and now.
Good words have replaced good works.
"Floating down the stream of indifference." WOW! Well-said.
Can someone help me what is Mr. Holdsworth music named in the prelude of the video?
With all due respect, my Christian brother, it is not "confidence" which is the problem with many trads. It is a rejection of the Church. When trads speak of the "invalid" Pauline Mass, the "heresies" of Vatican II, the "antipope Francis", etc., that is not confidence--it is arrogance, and rejection of the Church. Confidence and speaking boldly do not constitute virtues by themselves. Even a Satanist can speak out in bold, confident terms. Those who make themselves the arbiters of Truth, and set themselves up as the "real" Catholics, have lost confidence in the work of the Holy Spirit. As Catholics, we must not let our preference for one form of Mass over another to lead us away from Christ's one true church.
Yep, that's a big problem, but also remember that Brian already mentioned that the social networks are not a good representation about how the regular trads are.
... also think in how many "liberal Catholics" actively promote heresies or not even attend mass, I would say that that kind of issues are a bigger problem.
Of course, the existence of a bigger problem doesn't solve the lesser problem, but I mention this to make the point that if the main issue is that people doesn't take their faith serious enough, is a bad idea to be hostile towards the ones that takes their faith the most seriously. I agree that it's necessary to keep an eye on these groups, but those points feel too confrontational and restrictive imho.
Yep. And some of these people have essentially become protestants by rejection of Church teaching.
GOOD IS ALWAYS TOXIC TO EVIL! AS LIGHT SHINES ON THE DARK. AS EVIL SCATTERS LIKE ROACHES WHEN THE LIGHT OF HOLINESS SHINES UPON THEIR EVIL DEEDS.
This is what I am learning. In the spiritual life, we begin by learning the conceptual framework of the faith. Then, by a long and slow process, we strive to become what we know. To become what we know is what Jesus means by being "fully trained" (Luke 6:40). The fully trained person is like his teacher, Jesus. But the person who is not fully trained spends a lot of energy trying to remove the "speck" of doctrinal error from their brother's eye but fails to see the beam of intellectual self-righteousness in their own (Luke 6:41).
Recently, I am constantly meditating on 1 Corinthians 13, "Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude...."
Or the words of St. John of the Cross, "at the evening of life we will be judged on love alone."
Only charity will smooth out the rigid perception people have of trads without falling into doctrinal indifferentism.
I will always defend my faith and assert my preferences and convictions, I can't just let go of my sensibility and what I love.
The Holy Spirit has been called the Enemy of Apathy
I just want to receive Holy Communion.....
This exactly.
@Rachel James did you confront the priest about this?
Being cautious of one’s lack of knowledge is not a weakness. Opinions we will always have. They are not always informed and they do not give us the permission to be mean or high and mighty. If one is truly meek and humble of heart their interest is not to enforce their opinions on others. Once again you simplify modern developments in thought for the convenience of your base audience.
Brilliant! Very well done. I never looked at it from this perspective. It’s like building a fortress. If you want to to keep your enemies out, your structure must be strong and “rigid”. If any part of the wall is weak and compromised it will certainly be attacked from there.
What I’m about to say is not an accusation, but a point of reflection. I think we need to realize when we are acting like the Pharisees, because Jesus is constantly challenging the Pharisees’ rigidity and concern with the law. Jesus pulled rug out from the good, holy, practicing, law abiding Jews….
Nay, Our Lord critized their hipocrisy not their rigidity.
I never been around "trad" Catholics. I go to both a NO mass and the Byzantine divine liturgy. Most of the Catholics that I run into in person that cause me problems are liberal cafeteria Catholics. Byzantine Catholics are very nice and loving group. My Byzantine priest is very masculine and married. Haha
Hey Brian, rabom question, but what translation of the Bible do you use?
What is the chant during the intro bit?
So Francis throws out a whole valid form of Mass because of some members in it?
I don't buy it.
That's only part of it. Francis is part of the Great Reset, and he needs to get rid of the traditionalists to form his "one world church". This is like a communist purge. Making traditional church members pledge allegiance to the NO, placing restrictions on the lay members and priests, monitoring them for infractions and punishing them, is a page taken straight from the Communist playbook. Go to The Texas Catholic, the newspaper for the Diocese of Dallas, and read the statement from the Chancellor of the diocese. It tells you what's coming.
The Latin Mass was put into place in AD 1570. Prior to that it was in Greek. If you really want to go traditional, why not all the way back to the Greek mass, which dates back to 150 AD?
@@bobblacka918 Bob, it would really be nice if you knew what you are talking about... Can you please inform yourself before you write on the subject?
@@Athmoneus : I have informed myself and I believe the information I presented conforms to all academic standards of accuracy. However, please feel free to site me sources and references on any part which you disagree with and I will be glad to look into it.
If TLM Mass goers do not want to be stereotyped, maybe they should stop stereotype NO. Please stop pointing out how much better you are or how much more passionate you are for God. I will let you in on a little secret; you will also find just as passionate people in NO parishes. I am a revert who attends a NO Parish and I have been growing in trying to grow in faith, holiness, and virtue over the years. Anyone who speaks with me outside of my church will soon find out that I love the faith. Ever since the whole Pope Francis thing, the TLM Mass goers are quick to point out just how much holier, faithful, passionate, and superior they are in all ways compared to anyone else. It is tiring and makes me more turned off from the TLM Mass more and more each day.
I'm a "glad trad" and I've had the same experience at Novus Ordo and among non-Catholic social justice-y types. Self-righteousness and pride are not a trad-only phenomenon. Many people who hold to strict morals fall into the sin of pride and view those who are not as strict on themselves as beneath them (see: the vegan community, the "social justice community," and "Fundamentalist" Protestantism). Honestly, as annoying and frustrating as the sin of pride, in both myself and others, is, that is one of the most common sins which Saints have been known to struggle with and write much about. Pride is one of the most difficult sins to root out, and we should be praying for those prideful, self-righteous people on their journey to holiness while being watchful and prayerful to not fall into that sin ourselves. I am grateful that the prideful Catholics - Novus Ordo, Trad, Byzantine, Anglican Ordinariate, etc. - are in the church. Obviously, they need God, and I am sure they would be much worse off and much more prideful without the sacraments and the teachings of the church.
Great discussion Brian. I really appreciate your insights. Thank you. God bless!
As a Trad myself, I completely agree. We aren’t being assholes, we just know we’re right because what we believe in was the status quo of the Church for over 1,960 years. Admittedly, that isn’t ground for being bigoted and prideful. That’s one thing we trads tend to struggle with.
But one thing will always remain: I’ll take a Zealot over a Liberal Catholic any day. Similarly, I have more respect for an Atheist then I do an Agnostic. You’re either 100% with Christ and his Church or you’re 100% against it.
The Tridentine mass was promulgated by Pope Pius V in 1570. It is less than 450 years old.
"Jesus answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the greatest and the most important commandment. The second most important commandment is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’ The whole Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets depend on these two commandments.” " (Matthew 22:37-40)
"I may be able to speak the languages of human beings and even of angels, but if I have no love, my speech is no more than a noisy gong or a clanging bell. I may have the gift of inspired preaching; I may have all knowledge and understand all secrets; I may have all the faith needed to move mountains-but if I have no love, I am nothing. I may give away everything I have, and even give up my body to be burned -but if I have no love, this does me no good." (1 Corinthians 13:1-3)
"We love because God first loved us. If we say we love God, but hate others, we are liars. For we cannot love God, whom we have not seen, if we do not love others, whom we have seen. The command that Christ has given us is this: whoever loves God must love others also." (1 John 4:19-21)
The Church of Rome has been saying the Mass in Latin since the beginning! The form may change but the language has always been in Latin!!! It’s a dead language, yes! And that’s good because as in English our words change meaning but that can’t happen in Latin! Think of the word Gay! This is why it is still the official language of the Catholic Church. But our holy father doesn’t think so! It’s a real shame!
The TLM in its current form was established in 1570. For the first few years of the church it was in the vernacular of the area. So no you’re not correct.
I'm a middle grounder Catholic and I do have certain problems with Rad Trads but in the end of the day. They're still better than Progressive Catholics. Why? Because although they try to makes things easier in the church. They act as If they don't care about the sipiritual wellbeing of her because they water down tradition so much that needed traditions are thrown off. They think that God is merciful so much so that everyone's going to heaven(which makes their views on condemning traditionalists nonesensical). In short at leased Rad Trads care about the faith even though their methods can be too legalistic. Progressive Catholics don't care about the faith even if they say so.
Yes, those are good things about trads, but by supporting those who mock, attack and belittle those who are "destroying" the faith (and maybe they are destroying it), you are enabling them in their abuse. Finding a more conservative NO parish, and reading the lives of the Saints might be your best bet, if you want to avoid the pitfalls in both camps.
Yes we should approach them with charity. But once they start pushing their views on us we have to go on the offensive.
Some think that bullying is a form of the exchange of ideas in debate. Bullying is not a virtue. Truth in argument artfully expressed can be very persuasive.
Does anyone know which passage of the Holy Scripture he's referring to at 6:45 ?
Revelation 3:15-16