Gibson didn't care then because they never saw the V or Explorer as significant enough cash cows to care about copies. Now people want em, so now it's a problem.
@@jetcheneau5811 I think that it was just the new CEO at the time, looking for any way to funnel more cash into the company. To the O/Ps point, that is exactly what I was thinking. Too little, too late, imo.
Gibson has been under new ownership since 2019, who waited 50 years? Seems like they took action pretty quickly considering it would have been hard to do before they actually owed the company.
I hope this means guys like Seger can go back to making their V. Wanted one after seeing Pallbear play and holding Brett's. I had to 'settle' for a Dunable Asteroid which still kicks ass but I really wanted a Seger flying V
They also made near exact copies of the Mustang under the Kalamazoo brand. I really like Gibson guitars. Matter of fact, I’m shopping around now for one. However, I don’t much like the way their private equity owners manage them and push their litigious behavior. Some would excuse this behavior as something that every corporation does to protect their intellectual property and brand. Fair enough. But Fender doesn’t act this way. People can say that’s only because Fender lost their suit after it was determined that the abandoned their trademark rights out of neglect. But it’s the same deal with Gibson. They didn’t assert their rights in a timely period and their designs became generic and in use by many for a long time. It’s time to take their medicine and move forward with new designs and innovations. Fender did and came up with some pretty cool stuff like the Meteora and the guitars in their Parallel Universe and Paranormal range along with Tonemaster amps. Gibson came out with the Theodore, $2000 Epiiphones, and $1500 Gibson-branded 7 watt amps that no one bought six decades ago. They are not facing stiff competition because everyone is ripping them off, they are facing tough competition because they lost their focus on providing better value at all price points. Love Gibson guitars and even thought the Falcon amps are pretty good but they need to get back to meeting the market where it is, with QC, and price points that reflect the value that is available. They should get a premium because of the Gibson name but they have to understand that if they want to sit at the high end of the market the will absolutely face competition from others that can undercut their value proposition. PRS understands this and is prospering, Fender, Yamaha, Ibanez, also get it. The only that doesn’t is Gibson.
Lets not forget that the Gibson Les Paul was a 100% copy of a guitar design brought into Gibson by a designer in the hope of selling them the design, they just blatantly ripped it off, knowing full well he would not be able to afford to defend it. I forget the name of the original designer but it has been documented on TH-cam
Yes, yes it does. That’s one of the things that has kept me from getting a Dean in the past few years…the new headstock is BORING! I’ve got Vs, Zs, MLS, and a Caddy…all with that great iconic headstock.
I can’t agree at all😂😂😂😂.I’ve got a schenker Dean v and I think the headstock looks damned ugly but I’m a schenker fan 🤷♂️.That aside though I’m pretty sure the headstock shape does something that means the guitar is far more playable.The neck is fantastic anyway but there’s something about the evenness of the tension in bending strings that means that’s the guitar I reach for first
I feel the exact opposite. Totally ruins the flow. Any designer would tell you: all the flow and energy directed upward, and then a garish headstock pointing the other way?! No!
Dean and Hamer were not making Gibson copies in the late '70s. They were making Explorers and Vs that Gibson declined to make, with binding, inlays, maple caps, etc. The big 3 of "Boutique Guitars" (Hamer/Dean/BC Rich) forced the major mfrs like Gibson and Fender to raise their standards and up their game and we have all benefitted since then.
I traded in a cheap Fender for a 'lawsuit' Tokai strat in 1983. The reason I did, was that the cheap Fender was crap, and expensive new ones were little better, and unattainable. If it wasn't for the competition from the far east, Fender et al would still be offering overpriced bad instruments now. Tokai, Ibanez, Arai etc forced the 'Heritage' brands to up their game, to the benefit of players. Gibson, spend your money on Quality Control, not lawyers.
these days, you look at the squiers. they've gotten a surprisingly good line on the QC for the money you spend. fender proper? just seem to keep degrading. an $800 players strat shouldn't be needing a full set up out of the box when a $300 knockoff brand can have better overall quality and maybe needing some fine tuning to be up and gigging. and thats before we get into the issues with the top end lines. heck, even gibson has this same general sort of QC issue, but epiphone is making good strides. someone in each of the big dogs needs a clue by four, or they're gonna get left behind.
You may not like Gibson and that's fine but the QC issues are long gone. Mine is from before that era anyway and fantastic (98 Ltd Edition 58 Flying V) but go to a guitar store and grab any random LP Standard of the wall and it's likely to be great. They are expensive yes but consider due to inflation a LP at 1959 prices would be 5-10 grand depending if you go by monetary inflation only or purchasing power reduction which was much more dramatic. In 1958 a Les Paul cost 350 bucks. A 3 bedroom house cost 6 grand. So either Gibsons have gotten cheap or housing extraordinarily expensive because by inflation that house should be 100 grand. But it's not, it's 700 grand now. I love my Harley Bentons and Squiers and Epiphone but I do plan on eventually buying more Gibsons and I do try them in the store a lot, since they have bo qualms letting me fondle a 59 custom shop to compare with the G and Epi Standards. They're all excellent, the Epiphone being most disappointing. Dunno, my Korean made Epis are downright fantastic guitars. I stuck proper pickups in them and they're fantatic. The new Epiphones didn't make me fäcery enthusiastic. Because for 30% less you can get a Harley Benton SC550+ and that's just a better guitar. To me it was between the Gibson and the Epi but cost less than the Epiphone. Maybe I had a bad one. It looked and played great but it had high frets and buzz. My 160€ HB Telecaster has flawless frets (TE62DB in Lake Placid Blue, what a guitar!!!)... Player series Fender are good these days. About what you get with a US made one but at a reasonable price. Because Leo designed them to be cheap and easy to mass produce ublike a set-neck Gibson, Martin or the rest of the time. So while the Strat was meant to be a fancy guitar the Tele should be much cheaper. Below one grand for a US made Tele but alas no. Of course I like Flying Vs and they're unaffordable so I will build my own and find them used. Am original 70s V is only twice the cost of a current reissue 70s V haha... unfortunately I neither have 3 nor 6 grand so made in China prefab mahagoni body and neck it'll be. 67 style with a vibrola in candy apple red nitro finish with Tonerider pickups and CTS pots. Should be able to do it for 700 bucks and 100 hours work.
The biggest threat to Gibson at that time was the Yamaha SG. That guitar was miles ahead of what Gibson could produce in terms of quality and many Gibson players would switch to them at that time.
@@BrunodeSouzaLinothe biggest threat to Gibson is their lack of marketing and direction on identity. They don’t have many recognizable and known modern guitar players younger people listen to as ambassadors. No young person really knows Gibson. Fender? Sure. Other brands, too. But Gibson is kind of the boring and weird dad guitar.
@@walterpruitt6589 Funny cause it seems like theres a lot of young guys starting to buy dean again, so if that is the definition of "nuking your reputation" and fanbase then im all for it.
@@popeye089 Thats fair, although some people never really cared about pantera or dime and im one of them. Call me ignorant but I buy dean cause I like to play them not because of the brand and its practices.
@morbidsoy that's a very fair statement. I'm a giant dime and Pantera fan but it's not the FIRST reason id buy an ML , an ML is my two favourite guitars smooshed together the Explorer and V , the fact it's heavily associated with Dime is just a little cherry on top , same with an Explorer , I love those too it's just cool that they are synonymous with Hetfield . And there's nothing wrong with that
What’s funny is Gibson has copied Strats in the superstrat era on numerous occasions, used a Jackson headstock on one, made various PRS inspired copies, and Epiphone made a Jackson Rhodes copy and a BC Rich Bich copies when Gibson owned Epiphone.
I hope Dean wins and wins several times over. Not because I hate Gibson, but because what is fair is fair. Not only did Gibson have how many years decades, there are enough difference with Dean's guitars for them to be exclusively Dean designs and not exact copies of Gibson. I love and adore Gibson for real and forever will love Gibson. All of this litigation is so unfair though. Also, I think that if Dean can win this, we should also reverse Gibson's former lawsuits against ESP and allow ESP to go back to making those single cut Les Paul style "Lawsuit Eclipses" with the four knobs and treble side horn... and most important, an exact replica of James Hetfield's EET F** Explorer style guitar with the huge headstock. I heard Jeff Kiesel of Kiesel/Carvin Guitars that Gibson had allegedly sent him sort of cease-and-desist order for him to stop making his single cut LP styled guitars. He said absolutely not, they had decades to do this. Good for him. Dean was hurt with this and it isn't cool. Personally I think this is about GREED. Gibson had to shut down their Memphis factory yet had the money to acquire Mesa Boogie, Kramer, AND continue with all of this litigation.
Yeah, My Gibson guitars hold a special place in my eyes but I will never buy a new Gibson again because what they do to their employees! Gibson could have kept their employees going until they find other jobs and they could have slowly shut that factory down and slowly acquired those other companies 🙄 and mess a boogie is a whole different story but needless to say I won't be buying any of their crap either !
Kiesel brought out the CT6 (their spin on a Custom 24) and CS6 (their spin on a Les Paul) because PRS won their suit with Gibson over PRS's singlecut model. I *doubt* ESP would be allowed to sell their Les Paul copies (such as the satin purple Hetfield model) in the US because Gibson is *adamant* about their Les Paul trademark. But yeah, it looks like they're going to lose the Flying V and Explorer trademarks because they *haven't*, so we'll probably see ESP start making LTD versions of their Edwards Explorer copies for the US market Soon™ (VERY nice guitars).
@@auntjenifer7774How likely as a percentage would you say Gibson has a chance of losing this lawsuit? I ask because from the pics showed, the models do look very similar, so it will be interesting to see how it all plays out in court. Personally I hope they lose so that ESP would be able to reproduce the OG James hetfield explorers they use to sell
@@Kylora2112 Hi Kylora, thank you for that response. I did not know any of that about the CS6 and CT6. Funny how you mentioned that satin purple LP one because an individual a couple of months ago listed that same one for sale for $20K on Reverb or eBay and claimed it is the same one that is pictured in the ESP Custom Shop Gallery. I believe him or her, it is identical. You are correct though, that single cut Les Paul type model is not going to be allowed unfortunately.
When that infamous video came out, you knew that the guy was nuts. Telling studios to remove the tape from the Gibson guitars when Gibson has to pay the studio to have product placement.
I mean, look at the side by sides photos. They have a legit case of copying. Which is very rampant in guitar world anyway, I've always wondered why there weren't more lawsuits.
@huohization It was, but even the 335 has been a copied body style since it released and even their Les Paul body could be considered a copy of the Merle Travis Bigsby, not to mention the Duo Jet. The point is that they have had so many years to do something about it and didn't until now.
Unfortunately, companies can be punished in the US for not protecting their trademark. Even for the smallest things. It’s why America is so litigious and major corps have lawyers on payroll. They can’t pick and choose unless there is a legal agreement.
@@alaskacowboy1 There's a reason all the most popular models are being copied, Telecaster, Stratocaster, Les Paul and so on. No one copies the ones that doesn't sell well by their inventors. Seems little scummy to me, and feels weird that the defense is "Well, we've copied you for so long why are you getting mad now?". I personally will buy the legendary models only from the companies that came up with them. So far I have a LP and a Stratocaster, don't care for the Telecaster personally so I'll be skipping that completely.
@DasOmen02 Hell yeah, brother! Me too! Not to mention that it will be just as quality as a Gibson and play just as well and cost a fraction of the price of Gibsons silly ass pricing. I mean, I have tons of guitars, but if I want to get a Gibson SG like I've always wanted, (I have to admit they play amazingly), I would have to drop a couple of my guitars. Inflation right now is horrible, and so I could never justify just shelling out that kind of cash, but I'm not willing to let go of two or three guitars for one, you know what I mean? So FJB and F Gibson
@@williamdistasio9358used SGs are the most affordable of all gibsons other than double cut LP specials, I regularly see them at fender player prices, be on the lookout for a deal
I worked in a shop that sold both Gibson, and the USA Dean guitars. The US Dean's smoke Gibson, way better guitar for the money. Better playability, better QC, etc. Hell, I've played import Deans that smoked Gibson's.
I have 4 Dean Zs (recently sold a 5th), and yeah, their DMT-branded pickups suck, but their models that come with stock Seymour Duncans are awesome. I got 2 of a 4-piece custom run of lefty Z Floyds from XLG back in 2017, and I love the V neck profile their put on there (same as the Select line, though that's a hardtail), and I'd put them up against my 2019 B-2 Tribute Explorer (though not my '85).
@@Kylora2112 yup, those DMT pickups blow, but Dean makes a great playing guitar. Gibson has made some good guitars, but I haven't been impressed by much of anything I've seen in the last two decades. I've got a buddy that loves Gibson, but he even admits they've let the brand go to shit. He's got some cool Gibsons that play great, an E-2 with the flame maple top, he also has one of the old (can't remember the model name) Explorer with 24 frets and a Floyd and it's another killer guitar. I don't see how Gibson can charge the prices they do for what they're producing now. Their money would be better spent on building guitars people want, and better QC than lawyers and lawsuits.
Yep, and I’m not about to part with any of my Dean’s. A couple Zs, a couple Vs, a very nice ML, and my Cadillac. I had an SG years ago and pretty much hated it. The feel & balance were not for me. I’d love to add another Z or V to the collection. I’m just not enamoured with Gibson. And it’s not about the money, many of my 46 guitars cost more than many/most Gibson’s. Mostly it’s about playability. The rest is down to wanting to support guitar companies and not lifestyle brands.
The thing that most guitar-tubers forget to mention is that Gibson hadn't made any Vs or Explorers for over a decade when Hamer and Dean brought those designs back in the 70s. Gibson has Dean and other boutique brands to thank that anyone even *remembers* the V and the Explorer.
I wouldn't go that far. If it was the case that Dean, Hamer etc... repopularised the V and X guitars then those would be the popular explorer style guitars but they're not. All the people who popularised them played Gibsons. And it has been continuously made since 1967 58-59 with some leftovers in 60 and 63 then 67 reissue and that pretty much remained in the catalog unchanged, adding neck binding, closed tuners, fixed bridge and hotter pickups in the 70s First of all Albert King, used a 59 Korina for most of his early career before that was lost in a game of cards and went on to custom made 58 Style V's. Hendrix played three, all Gibsons of course but back then there weren't many people making Flying Vs besides the occasional luthier who found an old catalog. Michael and Rudolph Schenker, probably the biggest contributors to the Vs popularity, especially in metal and hard rock played Gibsons until very late in their career, by then it was already legendary. K.K. Downing had and still has his Medallion Flying V, it was cherry and along with a candy apple red vibrola 67 (Gibson calls Camdy Apple Red, Sparkling Burgundy. It's just heritage cherry over a Goldtop or Silvertop). That was his main axe. Now of course he is probably most known for playing Hamers m, but that was early to mid 80s. By then the Flying V was well established. It's the popularity that caused everyone to make their own not the other way around. Randy Rhoads would be an exception being a notable early populariser of the V, he had his custom Karl Sandoval polka dot V and then the Jacksons that of course led to the now popular Randy Rhoads style asymetric V, which most copies are. But that's likely down to Jackson being less litigious than Gibson. Explorers is more debatable, originals basically don't exist. They made 20. And being a V, LP, Tele guy I actually don't know my Explorer history that well. I do think those who used them in the early 80s used Gibsons, Maiden guys used to have them before the Jackson Strats along with Les Pauls, Hetfield of course. I love Vs great guitars. I have two. A Gibson and an Epiphone both 58 style. I love them. Gonna get a not too pricey Randy Rhoads too. And a Harley Benton Explorer, they make a real nice copy of the 58 Korina X. Unfortunately very few make nice symmetric style Vs.
People pay for that Gibson headstock, and I don’t see that changing anytime soon. As long as there are blues-lawyers/Dentists, Gibson will sell them guitars to hang on the wall.
If you make a desirable product at a fair price, you don’t have to sue your competitors. Compete instead of lawyering up, Gibson. I own many Gibson’s, but I like options and competition. It’s best for the consumer.
I remember once the Gibson Play Authenticate video it pissed me off. I was guitar shopping I was looking at a Epiphone Firebird and bought a new old stock Dean Trans Am.
I am still pissed off over that small mindedness so I still haven't bought that Steinberger! Yup, missed out on that half-half "Yin Yang" black and white Steinberger, but heck, I need my money more than they need mine!
I reckon body is free game, but headstock is the kicker, if you ripoff for example ibanez or fender headstock, then defs open for a lawsuit, but the strat or RG body outline, take it use it and add your own headstock to it is acceptable
That got me too, most non-rhotic speakers pronounce the letter R with an 'a' vowel sound before it, kinda like a pirate might! But also KDH is a rhotic speaker, at least partially, so it came out of left field.
It's already been settled. Dean can't use Dime's name anymore, nor the razorback or Stealth models, since that was Dime's design. But the ML is Dean's own design, and that's the real Dimebag guitar anyway. A lot of people are gonna get that Slime Green ML when it's available.
@@mofomartianp To be honest, the Stealth is rather associated with Washburn anyway and the Razorback is something that came out post mortem, based on some scribbles that Dime has done. The final product was the work of designers and craftmens, with everything from length, thickness and electronics planned and tested in detail, if I'm not wrong. So if that's the case, I say Dean earned 3/4 of that product. But frankly, Dean has profited enough from milking Dime's name and guitars with printed graphics were never beautiful imho. Their MLs will work even without stating "DIME" on the headplate. I even think it does look more classy that way. But maybe that's just my perspective after 12 years, ergo getting older and having a different perspective on things (less flashy, more classy). Cheers!
I had a Dean Z about 12 or so years ago. I sold it because I needed the money and wasn’t playing anyway. Now that I’m playing again, I wish I had kept it.
Sounds like Dean took a play out of PRS’ playbook. They also got sued by Gib$on over the Singlecut/Tremonti and lost at first but then won on appeal a few years later.
As someone that has played Dean V´s almost exclusively for many years and love their take on the V, i really hope that they can continue to make the V.
It's always been the headstock shape. Leave it at that. Can you imagine the descendants of Antonio De Torres suing every classical guitar maker in existence????
By allowing evidence of other products which weaken Gibson's trademark claims brands such as Hamer ( JAM industries), ESP, or Jackson (FMIC) could be attached to the case as necessary parties to the defense. That is a worse case scenario for Gibson, as they picked Dean to sue as a small weak company in a court district notorious for siding with larger corporations (surprised the appeal didn't include improper forum). Now they could be facing juggernauts of the industry that will gladly eat their lunch if they can.
I said it years ago, everything points to Dean ultimately winning this case. Gibson lost their right to dispute these alleged trademark infringements by not doing so 35 years ago.
When I was out in the world and spotted a Dean Michel angelo Batio I didn't care if it was a Gibson or Dean , I knew I wanted that guitar 17 years ago , upon seeing it I instantly bought it ... some reason I like guitars a little bit vintage , they are settled and have the bugs worked out of them .
This is great news im glad to hear. Also i learned the irish say "or" isntead of "ar" when pronouncing the letter R. Now i want to know if they think americans sound like cartoon pirates when we say it. Maybe im just baked. Amazing news though
I've worked a bit in the IP industry (but I'm not a patent attorney). I know that there can be general misunderstandings about what trademarks, patents and registered designs cover, where they are in force and how long they last for. The wording 'Flying V' is clearly a Gibson trademark, which is why the Dean model was (I believe) always named 'Dean V' by the company so as not to infringe. I think it gets harder with body shapes where arguments like 'generic' start to kick in and why so many manufacturers can make Stratocaster and Les Paul shaped bodies without litigation. I wonder if a small variation in design can get around things. Even Gibson have not been consistent with the shapes of their own models. The silhouette of the '58 and '67 Flying Vs are a bit different. Similar, but not identical. Trade names or trade marks can be registered in different trade mark classes. A fee has to be paid to keep them in force. The number of classes varies a bit from place to place. This is why you can have the same word used for different products but still trademarked e.g. 'Lotus' used by both a car manufacturer and a paper tissue maker for different TM classes. Apple was the name of the Beatles' music publishing company and separately a computer manufacturer. Inevitably this led to a law suit as Apple moved into iTunes and Apple Music and the TM usage became less distinct.
One cannot fail to defend their own trademark (aka TM) for over 40 years and then suddenly decide it matters, file a TM Infringement suit and then expect to prevail …at least for more than five minutes. Nothing says, “I don’t give a shit” quite like ignoring a tangible aspect of one’s IP, e.g., a trademarked guitar body shape, for over four decades, especially when multiple manufacturers have utilized that IP unfettered over that time period.
Dean Zelinsky was still associated with Dean guitars when Armadillo took over, at least for a year or two. I met him a couple of times at the Armadillo booth at NAMM when it was still held in Nashville.
I saw this coming. Gibson started some of those cases in that corner of Texas where all the the patent trolls start their cases. I think the biggest part of this case was that it set precedent which is a big deal in US law.
I'm always eagerly waiting for your new videos. You bring a fresh and enjoyable perspective on guitar playing, along with some great deals. I still remember the Chinese manufacturer in Shenzhen. I ordered a tube amp from there, a copy of a much more expensive original, and honestly, it's absolutely amazing. I just wish you could make videos a bit more often, but oh well.
I wonder if someone would get in trouble for right triangle inlays I never quite liked the esp sawtooth ibanez sharktooth or jackson sharkfins especially the fact that they skip the 24th fret
And that's not only true for Vs, if I recall correctly during the Dean lawsuit there were talks about Gibson potentially losing their rights to the ES 335 shape in Europe
Honestly, I really don't understand why Gibson did this. It just came off as petty bullying If you've got your heart set on a Gibson flying V, you're not all of a sudden going to buy a Dean V I think past CEOs knew this, which is why they didn't pursue the case. They'd have been far better, served cracking down on quality control then going after a much smaller company To me it seemed like they were doing it so it was your only option for a USA guitar rather than fixing their quality issues.
hopefully dean guitars can get back on the horse with this news, like the glory days of dean in the 2000s and early 2010s, those were great times for dean imo.
They did in 2017 when Hamer was coming out with modern imports that were better than most usa Gibson so they sued hamer into oblivion, same thing happened with Dean, Gibson seen Deans import was better than their usa guitars so they sued, it's disgusting really and the neither cases should have ever been heard in the modern day, maybe 40 years ago but not today and that's proof Gibson was just playing non competition law suit games and not actually protecting their trademark but using it as a way to sue their competition into oblivion, it worked with Hamer so they figured Dean might fall as quick but they fight and thank the guitar gods they did because they will prevail !
Gibson: "We invented the open book headstock!" Gregorio Sellas, ca 1640; "uh, no you didn't!" When litigation is part of your revenue plan and business model, you've lost the plot.
Now the question is... A) Will Pam's son also get his comeuppance for laundering money out of the company as well B) Will Dean have liquidity to actually get their instruments back into major retailers Otherwise, this appeal means nothing if the company ends up going under anyway... as a Tampa Native (as in I live 30-40 minutes from Dean USA HQ and Custom Shop on Waters Ave), I still HAVE NOT SEEN a single brand-spanking new Dean guitar in any local shop... mom and pop stores, bigger independent guitar shops, not even the Guitar Centers in the Tampa Bay area. Sure, a precedence has been set, but if Dean cannot recover from the financial strains that this lawsuit, the laundering and the creditors... it will just be a pyrrhic victory.
What it means is that Dean will have to spend more time and money to go through another trial all over again. Yeah I know Dean has been using Gibson designs for decades, but they're still Gibson designs. Companies do have the legal rights to defend them just as both Gibson and Jackson have done in the past against ESP, Ibanez, and others.
Gibson hid evidence? Shocking! The guy who runs Gibson (Cesar Gueikian) is an Investment Banker who plays guitars and is addicted to making all the money.
This guitar trademark war always reminds me of polo shirts and trademarks of polo players on horses with a polo stick. Wanna go down a rabbit hole? Look up that history, lol. I think there are lots of lessons to be taken for the guitar trademark war from cases and laws in the polo situation.
Question:. If a company sues for infringement, don't they have to figure out the damages? While Dean sells V and Z shaped guitars, how many do they sell per year and is that a big enough amount to sue over vs how many Dean sells V and Z guitars over a 10. or 20 year period would be considerably more. Also if a company is going to lose their right to sue, how much time has to pass that they don't sue?
'83 Dean Z here, the only new guitar I ever bought new because it is so freaking good and that compared to the '57s '58s '59s and 60's I had got my hands on back then too. Still overall the best performing instrument of about 25 great ones in the stable. It's just so damned big and pointy though, still trying to not bump into things.
Proud Dean player here. After Gibson sued them and people got butthurt about Dimebag, I ordered my first custom shop through them. It has been 2 years, which is too long imo, but i hope it is worth the wait.
4:18 Miyako Watanabe!! Love Lovebites! Great guitarist and composer. On top of it a concert level pianist and Star-Wars fan! ..and very pretty! Perfect!
I remember to this day just how pissed that the guitar community was when Gibson went after Ibanez for trademark infringement and the reason that we were all so pissed was the fact that Ibanez was building far superior representations of several of the Gibson models and doing it for less.
That and I feel like Dean was a part of history along with Hamer with making the Explorer and V cool to have and was the first of the smaller companies that wanted to make an off the shelf guitar like something out of Gibsons golden age
Other companies such as Ibanez, Aria, Tokai, Fernandes, and Burny have been making Gibson knockoffs since the 70s. The only thing Gibson did was ask Ibanez to change the headstock shape. There was no lawsuit. Gibson also didn’t care in the 80s with Dean and others. It should be known that Fender tried to stop copy cats back in the 80s. A bunch of builders testified that Fender didn’t care all these years and it would impact these builders. The court ruled that since they took no action back in the 70s, the best they could do was copyright their headstock shape. It wasn’t until Gibson went bankrupt and were bought that the current owners, who understandably wanted to turn the company around, started going after the copy cats. Then they unleashed that unshaven sweaty guy on us to convince us to play authentic. 🙄 I’m not sure how Gibson was able to recently copyright their body shapes. I’m thinking that the copyright office didn’t realize that the court said they can’t, and Dean’s (and other lawyers) didn’t know about this. So reversing this is good. As a guitar maker myself, I say you should come up with original designs. But the fact that Gibson and Fender didn’t care for 40 years doesn’t mean they can now. Only Rickenbacker actually copyrighted their designs and actively go after copy cats.
at this point, given how long most of the body shapes for almost all companies have been getting copied by others, none of them should be trademarkable. headstocks? ehh there's some minor argument for retention there, but bodies? nah, that ship sailed decades ago.
Great video, thanks for the recap, I’d kinda forgotten about this one. When they lose this case, Gibson should immediately start to use the Dean headstock shape 😄
A guitar is more than the body shape. It's the entire instrument. The Dean is clearly a different guitar when you look at it. The headstock is not even close. No one would confuse the two.
Ultimately, I think all this fighting bodes well for us as players, especially where the main contenders are concerned. Their elite names are dissolving in a sea of manufacturers who are offering better specs on our favourite guitars and at far more affordable prices. They will have to up their quality and adjust their prices to stay in the game, especially if they want to retain their 'elite' names.
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I said it then, I'll say it again. You can't sit by and watch someone do something for almost 50 YEARS and then take action.
Gibson didn't care then because they never saw the V or Explorer as significant enough cash cows to care about copies. Now people want em, so now it's a problem.
@@jetcheneau5811or maybe because they have gone through 3 different CEOs
@@jetcheneau5811 I think that it was just the new CEO at the time, looking for any way to funnel more cash into the company.
To the O/Ps point, that is exactly what I was thinking. Too little, too late, imo.
It’s all about billable hours
Gibson has been under new ownership since 2019, who waited 50 years? Seems like they took action pretty quickly considering it would have been hard to do before they actually owed the company.
Open pandora’s box and give me that ESP LTD EX James Hetfield inspired explorer in olympic white.
You could probably import an Edwards from Japan
I would be buying it instantly
I hope this means guys like Seger can go back to making their V. Wanted one after seeing Pallbear play and holding Brett's. I had to 'settle' for a Dunable Asteroid which still kicks ass but I really wanted a Seger flying V
I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if Gibson have filed a trademark lawsuit for the name 'Chibson'.
Chibson USA would *immediately* make real products to spite them :) (for $14999.999)
R.I.P. CGS
lol
But when Gibson made a strat copy, they had no problem ripping off Fender. They are hypocrites.
They also made near exact copies of the Mustang under the Kalamazoo brand. I really like Gibson guitars. Matter of fact, I’m shopping around now for one. However, I don’t much like the way their private equity owners manage them and push their litigious behavior. Some would excuse this behavior as something that every corporation does to protect their intellectual property and brand. Fair enough. But Fender doesn’t act this way. People can say that’s only because Fender lost their suit after it was determined that the abandoned their trademark rights out of neglect. But it’s the same deal with Gibson. They didn’t assert their rights in a timely period and their designs became generic and in use by many for a long time. It’s time to take their medicine and move forward with new designs and innovations. Fender did and came up with some pretty cool stuff like the Meteora and the guitars in their Parallel Universe and Paranormal range along with Tonemaster amps. Gibson came out with the Theodore, $2000 Epiiphones, and $1500 Gibson-branded 7 watt amps that no one bought six decades ago. They are not facing stiff competition because everyone is ripping them off, they are facing tough competition because they lost their focus on providing better value at all price points. Love Gibson guitars and even thought the Falcon amps are pretty good but they need to get back to meeting the market where it is, with QC, and price points that reflect the value that is available. They should get a premium because of the Gibson name but they have to understand that if they want to sit at the high end of the market the will absolutely face competition from others that can undercut their value proposition. PRS understands this and is prospering, Fender, Yamaha, Ibanez, also get it. The only that doesn’t is Gibson.
They also made a 1:1 clone of a Gretsch (I believe it even had the G brand on the face) but that's not an issue apparently.
Lets not forget that the Gibson Les Paul was a 100% copy of a guitar design brought into Gibson by a designer in the hope of selling them the design, they just blatantly ripped it off, knowing full well he would not be able to afford to defend it. I forget the name of the original designer but it has been documented on TH-cam
There was also bc rich bich and jackson rhoads copies from Epiphone in the 80's
its just business. Not really hypocrisy.
I agree that Gibson should not have won that, given Dean had been making those models for 40 years.
I make drum kits and I'm about to sue every brands that make round drum shells.😵💫
Ya!! You go get em
have you got a TM or Copyright?
You can't because frame drums are thousands of years old.
he sells drumshells on the sea shore
@@FidelIsaacVargas Who.. where? I'll sue I'm too! 😎
You gotta admit that the Dean headstock goes perfect with a flying V
Indeed it does, i play Dean V´s almost exclusively since many years now and i have been saying just that its a perfect match with a V at both ends.
Yes, yes it does. That’s one of the things that has kept me from getting a Dean in the past few years…the new headstock is BORING! I’ve got Vs, Zs, MLS, and a Caddy…all with that great iconic headstock.
I can’t agree at all😂😂😂😂.I’ve got a schenker Dean v and I think the headstock looks damned ugly but I’m a schenker fan 🤷♂️.That aside though I’m pretty sure the headstock shape does something that means the guitar is far more playable.The neck is fantastic anyway but there’s something about the evenness of the tension in bending strings that means that’s the guitar I reach for first
I feel the exact opposite. Totally ruins the flow. Any designer would tell you: all the flow and energy directed upward, and then a garish headstock pointing the other way?! No!
Dean and Hamer were not making Gibson copies in the late '70s. They were making Explorers and Vs that Gibson declined to make, with binding, inlays, maple caps, etc. The big 3 of "Boutique Guitars" (Hamer/Dean/BC Rich) forced the major mfrs like Gibson and Fender to raise their standards and up their game and we have all benefitted since then.
I traded in a cheap Fender for a 'lawsuit' Tokai strat in 1983. The reason I did, was that the cheap Fender was crap, and expensive new ones were little better, and unattainable. If it wasn't for the competition from the far east, Fender et al would still be offering overpriced bad instruments now. Tokai, Ibanez, Arai etc forced the 'Heritage' brands to up their game, to the benefit of players. Gibson, spend your money on Quality Control, not lawyers.
these days, you look at the squiers. they've gotten a surprisingly good line on the QC for the money you spend. fender proper? just seem to keep degrading. an $800 players strat shouldn't be needing a full set up out of the box when a $300 knockoff brand can have better overall quality and maybe needing some fine tuning to be up and gigging. and thats before we get into the issues with the top end lines.
heck, even gibson has this same general sort of QC issue, but epiphone is making good strides.
someone in each of the big dogs needs a clue by four, or they're gonna get left behind.
You may not like Gibson and that's fine but the QC issues are long gone. Mine is from before that era anyway and fantastic (98 Ltd Edition 58 Flying V) but go to a guitar store and grab any random LP Standard of the wall and it's likely to be great. They are expensive yes but consider due to inflation a LP at 1959 prices would be 5-10 grand depending if you go by monetary inflation only or purchasing power reduction which was much more dramatic. In 1958 a Les Paul cost 350 bucks. A 3 bedroom house cost 6 grand. So either Gibsons have gotten cheap or housing extraordinarily expensive because by inflation that house should be 100 grand. But it's not, it's 700 grand now. I love my Harley Bentons and Squiers and Epiphone but I do plan on eventually buying more Gibsons and I do try them in the store a lot, since they have bo qualms letting me fondle a 59 custom shop to compare with the G and Epi Standards. They're all excellent, the Epiphone being most disappointing. Dunno, my Korean made Epis are downright fantastic guitars. I stuck proper pickups in them and they're fantatic. The new Epiphones didn't make me fäcery enthusiastic. Because for 30% less you can get a Harley Benton SC550+ and that's just a better guitar. To me it was between the Gibson and the Epi but cost less than the Epiphone. Maybe I had a bad one. It looked and played great but it had high frets and buzz. My 160€ HB Telecaster has flawless frets (TE62DB in Lake Placid Blue, what a guitar!!!)...
Player series Fender are good these days. About what you get with a US made one but at a reasonable price. Because Leo designed them to be cheap and easy to mass produce ublike a set-neck Gibson, Martin or the rest of the time. So while the Strat was meant to be a fancy guitar the Tele should be much cheaper. Below one grand for a US made Tele but alas no. Of course I like Flying Vs and they're unaffordable so I will build my own and find them used. Am original 70s V is only twice the cost of a current reissue 70s V haha... unfortunately I neither have 3 nor 6 grand so made in China prefab mahagoni body and neck it'll be. 67 style with a vibrola in candy apple red nitro finish with Tonerider pickups and CTS pots. Should be able to do it for 700 bucks and 100 hours work.
The biggest threat to Gibson at that time was the Yamaha SG. That guitar was miles ahead of what Gibson could produce in terms of quality and many Gibson players would switch to them at that time.
@@BrunodeSouzaLinothe biggest threat to Gibson is their lack of marketing and direction on identity. They don’t have many recognizable and known modern guitar players younger people listen to as ambassadors. No young person really knows Gibson. Fender? Sure. Other brands, too. But Gibson is kind of the boring and weird dad guitar.
@@TomJakobW I very nearly bought one.. a friend of mine did buy one. It was a golden age for guitars!
I think this is the first time I’ve heard an Irish person say the letter “R” out loud. Not what I was expecting 😂
Honestly I had to relisten to him spelling out "m-o-d-e-r-n" because the pronunciation of the "r" completely reset my brain
Sounded like: "m-o-d-e-OAR-n" to my upper Midwest American ears. Love it!
You can easily pick out the Irish pirates
Yet he said R-madillo in a regular fashion 😅 don't get me wrong, all in good jest 🤟
😂"orr". I thought he misspoke, but then he said it again!
now everyone can play authentic with a clean conscience
I play only authentic Gibson knockoffs.
@@TobiasC-mg4zk And why not 🎉
When Dean ultimately wins, I'll be waiting for the special "Victory" model of the flying V.
V as in Victory, hell yes !!
Haha I'd buy it just to support
Hahaha Zero F*cks Given. Go Dean
I know right, a great way to speed run nuking your reputation and fan base.
@@walterpruitt6589 Funny cause it seems like theres a lot of young guys starting to buy dean again, so if that is the definition of "nuking your reputation" and fanbase then im all for it.
@@morbidsoyI’ll never buy a Dean because of them screwing Dimebags family. That’s as scummy as you get
@@popeye089 Thats fair, although some people never really cared about pantera or dime and im one of them. Call me ignorant but I buy dean cause I like to play them not because of the brand and its practices.
@morbidsoy that's a very fair statement. I'm a giant dime and Pantera fan but it's not the FIRST reason id buy an ML , an ML is my two favourite guitars smooshed together the Explorer and V , the fact it's heavily associated with Dime is just a little cherry on top , same with an Explorer , I love those too it's just cool that they are synonymous with Hetfield . And there's nothing wrong with that
What’s funny is Gibson has copied Strats in the superstrat era on numerous occasions, used a Jackson headstock on one, made various PRS inspired copies, and Epiphone made a Jackson Rhodes copy and a BC Rich Bich copies when Gibson owned Epiphone.
I hope Dean wins and wins several times over. Not because I hate Gibson, but because what is fair is fair. Not only did Gibson have how many years decades, there are enough difference with Dean's guitars for them to be exclusively Dean designs and not exact copies of Gibson. I love and adore Gibson for real and forever will love Gibson. All of this litigation is so unfair though.
Also, I think that if Dean can win this, we should also reverse Gibson's former lawsuits against ESP and allow ESP to go back to making those single cut Les Paul style "Lawsuit Eclipses" with the four knobs and treble side horn... and most important, an exact replica of James Hetfield's EET F** Explorer style guitar with the huge headstock.
I heard Jeff Kiesel of Kiesel/Carvin Guitars that Gibson had allegedly sent him sort of cease-and-desist order for him to stop making his single cut LP styled guitars. He said absolutely not, they had decades to do this. Good for him.
Dean was hurt with this and it isn't cool. Personally I think this is about GREED. Gibson had to shut down their Memphis factory yet had the money to acquire Mesa Boogie, Kramer, AND continue with all of this litigation.
Yeah, My Gibson guitars hold a special place in my eyes but I will never buy a new Gibson again because what they do to their employees! Gibson could have kept their employees going until they find other jobs and they could have slowly shut that factory down and slowly acquired those other companies 🙄 and mess a boogie is a whole different story but needless to say I won't be buying any of their crap either !
Kiesel brought out the CT6 (their spin on a Custom 24) and CS6 (their spin on a Les Paul) because PRS won their suit with Gibson over PRS's singlecut model. I *doubt* ESP would be allowed to sell their Les Paul copies (such as the satin purple Hetfield model) in the US because Gibson is *adamant* about their Les Paul trademark. But yeah, it looks like they're going to lose the Flying V and Explorer trademarks because they *haven't*, so we'll probably see ESP start making LTD versions of their Edwards Explorer copies for the US market Soon™ (VERY nice guitars).
@@auntjenifer7774How likely as a percentage would you say Gibson has a chance of losing this lawsuit? I ask because from the pics showed, the models do look very similar, so it will be interesting to see how it all plays out in court. Personally I hope they lose so that ESP would be able to reproduce the OG James hetfield explorers they use to sell
@@Kylora2112 Hi Kylora, thank you for that response. I did not know any of that about the CS6 and CT6. Funny how you mentioned that satin purple LP one because an individual a couple of months ago listed that same one for sale for $20K on Reverb or eBay and claimed it is the same one that is pictured in the ESP Custom Shop Gallery. I believe him or her, it is identical. You are correct though, that single cut Les Paul type model is not going to be allowed unfortunately.
@@xXAscendingPhoenixXx Gibson will 95% lose because they took 40 years to defend their trademark, and every brand has their Explorer and V model.
Mark Agnesi punching in the air right now with his "play authentic" stance.
Old Greasy Agenesi! What a 🤡!
i remember that video, and the fear in Agnesi's eyes... "this is not gonna go well at all". At least that was my impression.
@@vyrus24 For GIBSON!
When that infamous video came out, you knew that the guy was nuts. Telling studios to remove the tape from the Gibson guitars when Gibson has to pay the studio to have product placement.
Gibson gotta stop suing basically everything
I mean, look at the side by sides photos. They have a legit case of copying. Which is very rampant in guitar world anyway, I've always wondered why there weren't more lawsuits.
@huohization It was, but even the 335 has been a copied body style since it released and even their Les Paul body could be considered a copy of the Merle Travis Bigsby, not to mention the Duo Jet. The point is that they have had so many years to do something about it and didn't until now.
Gibson gotta stop in general
Unfortunately, companies can be punished in the US for not protecting their trademark. Even for the smallest things.
It’s why America is so litigious and major corps have lawyers on payroll.
They can’t pick and choose unless there is a legal agreement.
@@alaskacowboy1 There's a reason all the most popular models are being copied, Telecaster, Stratocaster, Les Paul and so on. No one copies the ones that doesn't sell well by their inventors. Seems little scummy to me, and feels weird that the defense is "Well, we've copied you for so long why are you getting mad now?". I personally will buy the legendary models only from the companies that came up with them. So far I have a LP and a Stratocaster, don't care for the Telecaster personally so I'll be skipping that completely.
Wait, depending on how the lawsuit goes, does this mean we could get a reproduction Ibanez Destroyer?
Id take that and reproductions of the MX/EXP Shapes from ESP
Duuuuuuuude I'd love an Ibanez destroyer 🤩
@DasOmen02 Hell yeah, brother! Me too!
Not to mention that it will be just as quality as a Gibson and play just as well and cost a fraction of the price of Gibsons silly ass pricing.
I mean, I have tons of guitars, but if I want to get a Gibson SG like I've always wanted, (I have to admit they play amazingly), I would have to drop a couple of my guitars. Inflation right now is horrible, and so I could never justify just shelling out that kind of cash, but I'm not willing to let go of two or three guitars for one, you know what I mean? So FJB and F Gibson
@@williamdistasio9358used SGs are the most affordable of all gibsons other than double cut LP specials, I regularly see them at fender player prices, be on the lookout for a deal
Oh how I dream of a repro destroyer, I would buy one in an instant if it was anywhere cheaper than the epiphone korina explorer
To be honest I think the Moderne would be flattered if someone bothered to make a knockoff
Ibanez did😊
Now THAT'S funny! 😂😂
pretty sure the moderne would be happy just having people buying them in a quantity worth mentioning, let alone copying.
I think eastwood does or did them. But that's kinda their thing lol
I worked in a shop that sold both Gibson, and the USA Dean guitars.
The US Dean's smoke Gibson, way better guitar for the money. Better playability, better QC, etc.
Hell, I've played import Deans that smoked Gibson's.
I have 4 Dean Zs (recently sold a 5th), and yeah, their DMT-branded pickups suck, but their models that come with stock Seymour Duncans are awesome. I got 2 of a 4-piece custom run of lefty Z Floyds from XLG back in 2017, and I love the V neck profile their put on there (same as the Select line, though that's a hardtail), and I'd put them up against my 2019 B-2 Tribute Explorer (though not my '85).
@@Kylora2112 yup, those DMT pickups blow, but Dean makes a great playing guitar.
Gibson has made some good guitars, but I haven't been impressed by much of anything I've seen in the last two decades.
I've got a buddy that loves Gibson, but he even admits they've let the brand go to shit. He's got some cool Gibsons that play great, an E-2 with the flame maple top, he also has one of the old (can't remember the model name) Explorer with 24 frets and a Floyd and it's another killer guitar.
I don't see how Gibson can charge the prices they do for what they're producing now. Their money would be better spent on building guitars people want, and better QC than lawyers and lawsuits.
my dean dave mustaine vtmn is great
Yep, and I’m not about to part with any of my Dean’s. A couple Zs, a couple Vs, a very nice ML, and my Cadillac. I had an SG years ago and pretty much hated it. The feel & balance were not for me. I’d love to add another Z or V to the collection. I’m just not enamoured with Gibson. And it’s not about the money, many of my 46 guitars cost more than many/most Gibson’s. Mostly it’s about playability. The rest is down to wanting to support guitar companies and not lifestyle brands.
The thing that most guitar-tubers forget to mention is that Gibson hadn't made any Vs or Explorers for over a decade when Hamer and Dean brought those designs back in the 70s. Gibson has Dean and other boutique brands to thank that anyone even *remembers* the V and the Explorer.
I wouldn't go that far. If it was the case that Dean, Hamer etc... repopularised the V and X guitars then those would be the popular explorer style guitars but they're not. All the people who popularised them played Gibsons. And it has been continuously made since 1967 58-59 with some leftovers in 60 and 63 then 67 reissue and that pretty much remained in the catalog unchanged, adding neck binding, closed tuners, fixed bridge and hotter pickups in the 70s
First of all Albert King, used a 59 Korina for most of his early career before that was lost in a game of cards and went on to custom made 58 Style V's.
Hendrix played three, all Gibsons of course but back then there weren't many people making Flying Vs besides the occasional luthier who found an old catalog.
Michael and Rudolph Schenker, probably the biggest contributors to the Vs popularity, especially in metal and hard rock played Gibsons until very late in their career, by then it was already legendary.
K.K. Downing had and still has his Medallion Flying V, it was cherry and along with a candy apple red vibrola 67 (Gibson calls Camdy Apple Red, Sparkling Burgundy. It's just heritage cherry over a Goldtop or Silvertop). That was his main axe. Now of course he is probably most known for playing Hamers m, but that was early to mid 80s. By then the Flying V was well established. It's the popularity that caused everyone to make their own not the other way around.
Randy Rhoads would be an exception being a notable early populariser of the V, he had his custom Karl Sandoval polka dot V and then the Jacksons that of course led to the now popular Randy Rhoads style asymetric V, which most copies are. But that's likely down to Jackson being less litigious than Gibson.
Explorers is more debatable, originals basically don't exist. They made 20. And being a V, LP, Tele guy I actually don't know my Explorer history that well. I do think those who used them in the early 80s used Gibsons, Maiden guys used to have them before the Jackson Strats along with Les Pauls, Hetfield of course. I love Vs great guitars. I have two. A Gibson and an Epiphone both 58 style. I love them. Gonna get a not too pricey Randy Rhoads too. And a Harley Benton Explorer, they make a real nice copy of the 58 Korina X. Unfortunately very few make nice symmetric style Vs.
People pay for that Gibson headstock, and I don’t see that changing anytime soon.
As long as there are blues-lawyers/Dentists, Gibson will sell them guitars to hang on the wall.
You don't have to be neither of those to buy a LP Standard or SG which are both great guitars.
@@huohizationno, you just have to have poor taste. Gibson is easily one of the worst makers of G style guitars
@@drdoom8793 As if taste is a question of good or bad, it's all subjective. Point was, you don't have to be rich to buy them.
@@drdoom8793whatever dude. Gibson makes some great stuff but to each his own.
@@drdoom8793- let me guess - you think the Gem is the “GOAT.” Am i right?
Gibson should be sued for making $6000 mandolins that look like shit. Like, who's that for? Sure as shit not for regular people
LMFAO 🎉
The $6000 mandolins are some of their "lower" priced models. I'm sure Gibson would consider them their "working man's mandolin".
Cry about being poor, harder.
@@jfnarmourSo what if he's poor? Atleast the man has common sense!
@@jfnarmourimagine being such a A-hole that you think making fun of someone for not having money makes you better than them…
If you make a desirable product at a fair price, you don’t have to sue your competitors. Compete instead of lawyering up, Gibson. I own many Gibson’s, but I like options and competition. It’s best for the consumer.
They all compete in producing same 5 shapes for last 70 years. It’s all pretty boring really.
Play an Authentic Dean !
I remember once the Gibson Play Authenticate video it pissed me off. I was guitar shopping I was looking at a Epiphone Firebird and bought a new old stock Dean Trans Am.
I am still pissed off over that small mindedness so I still haven't bought that Steinberger!
Yup, missed out on that half-half "Yin Yang" black and white Steinberger, but heck, I need my money more than they need mine!
Gibson is also taking legal action against the Alphabet for using the copyrighted"V" shape
I reckon body is free game, but headstock is the kicker, if you ripoff for example ibanez or fender headstock, then defs open for a lawsuit, but the strat or RG body outline, take it use it and add your own headstock to it is acceptable
That pronunciation of the letter R in “modern”is really messing with me, but it’s fine I’m an American.
As an American as well, that caught me off guard lol
That got me too, most non-rhotic speakers pronounce the letter R with an 'a' vowel sound before it, kinda like a pirate might! But also KDH is a rhotic speaker, at least partially, so it came out of left field.
Englishman here, got me too! Turns out I’d never heard an Irishman say the letter R before. Now I know.
M-O-D-E-OR-N 😂
Just sounds like an Irish person to me 🤷♂️
headstock shape makes every guitar unique. dean have always looked different. because of this
Now how's that dimebag estate lawsuit going 😂
It's already been settled. Dean can't use Dime's name anymore, nor the razorback or Stealth models, since that was Dime's design. But the ML is Dean's own design, and that's the real Dimebag guitar anyway. A lot of people are gonna get that Slime Green ML when it's available.
@@mofomartianp To be honest, the Stealth is rather associated with Washburn anyway and the Razorback is something that came out post mortem, based on some scribbles that Dime has done. The final product was the work of designers and craftmens, with everything from length, thickness and electronics planned and tested in detail, if I'm not wrong. So if that's the case, I say Dean earned 3/4 of that product. But frankly, Dean has profited enough from milking Dime's name and guitars with printed graphics were never beautiful imho. Their MLs will work even without stating "DIME" on the headplate. I even think it does look more classy that way. But maybe that's just my perspective after 12 years, ergo getting older and having a different perspective on things (less flashy, more classy). Cheers!
I had a Dean Z about 12 or so years ago. I sold it because I needed the money and wasn’t playing anyway. Now that I’m playing again, I wish I had kept it.
Sounds like Dean took a play out of PRS’ playbook. They also got sued by Gib$on over the Singlecut/Tremonti and lost at first but then won on appeal a few years later.
I am thrilled the ruling was overturned. Gibson coasted for years and then relied on the court system to do what they should have done years ago
As someone that has played Dean V´s almost exclusively for many years and love their take on the V, i really hope that they can continue to make the V.
Remember when that big company saved itself from demise by suing all of its competitors?
Me either. Gibson could just be a better company.
If this case goes the way it should, ESP and LTD could bring back the old EX shape!
I'd be interested in a re-released Schenker V
Lol, dude, a PRS Explorer was the first thing I thought.
they should make guitar shapes not trademarkable
Not a big fan of PRS but a V with that classic PRS headstock would look pretty cool.
On a side note, go check out Fireplant guitars! They rock.
🤘🤘🤘🤘
Schecter almost do
Yeah it's pretty cool, samick Glen Bennett I think it's what the series was called and it's a V with the prs head stock.
This makes me happy. I love the Dean V’s.
It's always been the headstock shape. Leave it at that. Can you imagine the descendants of Antonio De Torres suing every classical guitar maker in existence????
By allowing evidence of other products which weaken Gibson's trademark claims brands such as Hamer ( JAM industries), ESP, or Jackson (FMIC) could be attached to the case as necessary parties to the defense. That is a worse case scenario for Gibson, as they picked Dean to sue as a small weak company in a court district notorious for siding with larger corporations (surprised the appeal didn't include improper forum). Now they could be facing juggernauts of the industry that will gladly eat their lunch if they can.
I said it years ago, everything points to Dean ultimately winning this case. Gibson lost their right to dispute these alleged trademark infringements by not doing so 35 years ago.
When I was out in the world and spotted a Dean Michel angelo Batio I didn't care if it was a Gibson or Dean , I knew I wanted that guitar 17 years ago , upon seeing it I instantly bought it ... some reason I like guitars a little bit vintage , they are settled and have the bugs worked out of them .
This is great news im glad to hear. Also i learned the irish say "or" isntead of "ar" when pronouncing the letter R. Now i want to know if they think americans sound like cartoon pirates when we say it. Maybe im just baked. Amazing news though
This is why nintendo is so strong on IP, you have to show you are not happy right away, a long silence on a issue is taken as acceptance.
I've worked a bit in the IP industry (but I'm not a patent attorney). I know that there can be general misunderstandings about what trademarks, patents and registered designs cover, where they are in force and how long they last for.
The wording 'Flying V' is clearly a Gibson trademark, which is why the Dean model was (I believe) always named 'Dean V' by the company so as not to infringe. I think it gets harder with body shapes where arguments like 'generic' start to kick in and why so many manufacturers can make Stratocaster and Les Paul shaped bodies without litigation. I wonder if a small variation in design can get around things. Even Gibson have not been consistent with the shapes of their own models. The silhouette of the '58 and '67 Flying Vs are a bit different. Similar, but not identical.
Trade names or trade marks can be registered in different trade mark classes. A fee has to be paid to keep them in force. The number of classes varies a bit from place to place. This is why you can have the same word used for different products but still trademarked e.g. 'Lotus' used by both a car manufacturer and a paper tissue maker for different TM classes.
Apple was the name of the Beatles' music publishing company and separately a computer manufacturer. Inevitably this led to a law suit as Apple moved into iTunes and Apple Music and the TM usage became less distinct.
One cannot fail to defend their own trademark (aka TM) for over 40 years and then suddenly decide it matters, file a TM Infringement suit and then expect to prevail …at least for more than five minutes. Nothing says, “I don’t give a shit” quite like ignoring a tangible aspect of one’s IP, e.g., a trademarked guitar body shape, for over four decades, especially when multiple manufacturers have utilized that IP unfettered over that time period.
you know the video is gonna take a huge twist when khd says "... BOT"
...and flips his hair... Again!
I'm 62 and almost bald, but, cut it to reasonable.
I want to order a Gibson custom shop explorer with a forked headstock now but I don't think they'd build it
Dean rocks. Gibson can go kick rocks.
Dean Zelinsky was for years but not Armadillo
😂 Probably doesn't matter, the brand is DEAN and that's still the name on the headstock.
Dean Zelinsky was still associated with Dean guitars when Armadillo took over, at least for a year or two. I met him a couple of times at the Armadillo booth at NAMM when it was still held in Nashville.
I had a DEAN just like the Dimebag model in 1985. Great guitar, and I still miss it.
I'm pretty salty Dave Mustaine went from Dean to Gibson.
Me too, his Gibsons are...not great looking 🤮
When you cant beat the competition by competing, sue the pants off them.
Typical modern corporation these days.
Especially true with lifestyle brands. LOL
Exactly. You can’t trademark a shape . Think if someone tried to trademark a circle , the wheel , disc , etc .
I saw this coming. Gibson started some of those cases in that corner of Texas where all the the patent trolls start their cases. I think the biggest part of this case was that it set precedent which is a big deal in US law.
This may be a big deal for these companies but I would buy the guitars I wanted to buy regardless of name or shape.
I didn't even know that Dean was still in business. LOL
They very much are. Still make some great guitars here in Tampa.
I love the cursive logo they’ve been using. In fact, it’s the only reason I’d play one now.
I'm always eagerly waiting for your new videos.
You bring a fresh and enjoyable perspective on guitar playing, along with some great deals. I still remember the Chinese manufacturer in Shenzhen. I ordered a tube amp from there, a copy of a much more expensive original, and honestly, it's absolutely amazing.
I just wish you could make videos a bit more often, but oh well.
I wonder if someone would get in trouble for right triangle inlays I never quite liked the esp sawtooth ibanez sharktooth or jackson sharkfins especially the fact that they skip the 24th fret
LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOO
😂 why do you youngsters have an infatuation with Goo !?
We need a comeback of the ESP MX-250 desperately, and to be honest? If things go like this, we might just get a chance. A smidgen of a chance, even.
Lmfao not going to happen. The banana headstock is protected.
And that's not only true for Vs, if I recall correctly during the Dean lawsuit there were talks about Gibson potentially losing their rights to the ES 335 shape in Europe
Honestly, I really don't understand why Gibson did this. It just came off as petty bullying If you've got your heart set on a Gibson flying V, you're not all of a sudden going to buy a Dean V I think past CEOs knew this, which is why they didn't pursue the case.
They'd have been far better, served cracking down on quality control then going after a much smaller company To me it seemed like they were doing it so it was your only option for a USA guitar rather than fixing their quality issues.
hopefully dean guitars can get back on the horse with this news, like the glory days of dean in the 2000s and early 2010s, those were great times for dean imo.
Agreed. I have 4 Zs, and love them all ♥
Why didnt Gibson go after Hammer for thier take on the Explorer and the Les Paul double cutaway?
They did in 2017 when Hamer was coming out with modern imports that were better than most usa Gibson so they sued hamer into oblivion, same thing happened with Dean, Gibson seen Deans import was better than their usa guitars so they sued, it's disgusting really and the neither cases should have ever been heard in the modern day, maybe 40 years ago but not today and that's proof Gibson was just playing non competition law suit games and not actually protecting their trademark but using it as a way to sue their competition into oblivion, it worked with Hamer so they figured Dean might fall as quick but they fight and thank the guitar gods they did because they will prevail !
this could be a good discussion for our live stream this weekend
I never did like the Dean headstocks. They just don't look good for tuning, unless you put a locking nut/Floyd Rose on it, or something.
It does have a willful disregard for practical engineering.
Gibson: "We invented the open book headstock!"
Gregorio Sellas, ca 1640; "uh, no you didn't!"
When litigation is part of your revenue plan and business model, you've lost the plot.
Now the question is...
A) Will Pam's son also get his comeuppance for laundering money out of the company as well
B) Will Dean have liquidity to actually get their instruments back into major retailers
Otherwise, this appeal means nothing if the company ends up going under anyway... as a Tampa Native (as in I live 30-40 minutes from Dean USA HQ and Custom Shop on Waters Ave), I still HAVE NOT SEEN a single brand-spanking new Dean guitar in any local shop... mom and pop stores, bigger independent guitar shops, not even the Guitar Centers in the Tampa Bay area.
Sure, a precedence has been set, but if Dean cannot recover from the financial strains that this lawsuit, the laundering and the creditors... it will just be a pyrrhic victory.
It's like someone building a rocking chair a little bit different and then The Rocking Chair Company suing them for it
Is that a band? “The rocking chair”? 😂
This should open the door for ESP to return to making explorers, vs, and Paul’s
If this favors for Dean, we as the consumer can finally possibly see those awesome 90’s ESP explorers return!
I always wanted to try one of those old Dime Slimes. It just looks fun
What it means is that Dean will have to spend more time and money to go through another trial all over again. Yeah I know Dean has been using Gibson designs for decades, but they're still Gibson designs. Companies do have the legal rights to defend them just as both Gibson and Jackson have done in the past against ESP, Ibanez, and others.
Gibson hid evidence? Shocking! The guy who runs Gibson (Cesar Gueikian) is an Investment Banker who plays guitars and is addicted to making all the money.
Hello, Chicago, (Would you please welcome from England) Michael Schenker references always make me smile!
Yeah.That's really the only thing that's intresting here.
Regardless of the actual trade mark dispute, I strongly believe that most people will look at those shapes and think of Gibson.
This guitar trademark war always reminds me of polo shirts and trademarks of polo players on horses with a polo stick. Wanna go down a rabbit hole? Look up that history, lol. I think there are lots of lessons to be taken for the guitar trademark war from cases and laws in the polo situation.
"Complete vindication" seems to be a stretch by Dean.... but that's on brand or them. lmao
Score one for the little guy!
The Korean made 79' series, V, Z, & ML's are well made, great sounding guitars.
"Modern... M-O-D-E-OR-N" had me crackin' up mate.
Philip McKnight also gave good commentary on the issue
Question:. If a company sues for infringement, don't they have to figure out the damages? While Dean sells V and Z shaped guitars, how many do they sell per year and is that a big enough amount to sue over vs how many Dean sells V and Z guitars over a 10. or 20 year period would be considerably more.
Also if a company is going to lose their right to sue, how much time has to pass that they don't sue?
'83 Dean Z here, the only new guitar I ever bought new because it is so freaking good and that compared to the '57s '58s '59s and 60's I had got my hands on back then too.
Still overall the best performing instrument of about 25 great ones in the stable. It's just so damned big and pointy though, still trying to not bump into things.
Proud Dean player here. After Gibson sued them and people got butthurt about Dimebag, I ordered my first custom shop through them. It has been 2 years, which is too long imo, but i hope it is worth the wait.
4:18 Miyako Watanabe!! Love Lovebites! Great guitarist and composer.
On top of it a concert level pianist and Star-Wars fan! ..and very pretty!
Perfect!
I just really want to be able to buy ''original'' dime guitars, but Im waiting to see what dime guitarz have in store in the future.
Dean still holds the Stealth and Razorback designs.
What would they be able to offer?
Diamond guitars?
Dean Zelinsky is tasked with making the new a Dime guitars, that's already contracted to him, not Dean guitars in Florida.
@auntjenifer7774 what will they offer though? They can't use the ML, Stealth or Razorback.
I remember to this day just how pissed that the guitar community was when Gibson went after Ibanez for trademark infringement and the reason that we were all so pissed was the fact that Ibanez was building far superior representations of several of the Gibson models and doing it for less.
That and I feel like Dean was a part of history along with Hamer with making the Explorer and V cool to have and was the first of the smaller companies that wanted to make an off the shelf guitar like something out of Gibsons golden age
Other companies such as Ibanez, Aria, Tokai, Fernandes, and Burny have been making Gibson knockoffs since the 70s. The only thing Gibson did was ask Ibanez to change the headstock shape. There was no lawsuit.
Gibson also didn’t care in the 80s with Dean and others.
It should be known that Fender tried to stop copy cats back in the 80s. A bunch of builders testified that Fender didn’t care all these years and it would impact these builders. The court ruled that since they took no action back in the 70s, the best they could do was copyright their headstock shape.
It wasn’t until Gibson went bankrupt and were bought that the current owners, who understandably wanted to turn the company around, started going after the copy cats. Then they unleashed that unshaven sweaty guy on us to convince us to play authentic. 🙄
I’m not sure how Gibson was able to recently copyright their body shapes. I’m thinking that the copyright office didn’t realize that the court said they can’t, and Dean’s (and other lawyers) didn’t know about this.
So reversing this is good.
As a guitar maker myself, I say you should come up with original designs. But the fact that Gibson and Fender didn’t care for 40 years doesn’t mean they can now. Only Rickenbacker actually copyrighted their designs and actively go after copy cats.
at this point, given how long most of the body shapes for almost all companies have been getting copied by others, none of them should be trademarkable.
headstocks? ehh there's some minor argument for retention there, but bodies? nah, that ship sailed decades ago.
Great video, thanks for the recap, I’d kinda forgotten about this one.
When they lose this case, Gibson should immediately start to use the Dean headstock shape 😄
Feck Gibson, their instruments are over priced and under par quality, the design of their headstock makes for some really unstable tuning.
@Mars-mr3om so what, I don't care if it's got nothing to do with the lawsuit. They are shit products.
Booo!
@Mars-mr3om
Uhgg okay, good luck with assuming what people feel 🤣😂
I would like to see Fender suing all the brands that have strat or super strat bodies, including Gibson...
A guitar is more than the body shape. It's the entire instrument. The Dean is clearly a different guitar when you look at it. The headstock is not even close. No one would confuse the two.
Ultimately, I think all this fighting bodes well for us as players, especially where the main contenders are concerned. Their elite names are dissolving in a sea of manufacturers who are offering better specs on our favourite guitars and at far more affordable prices. They will have to up their quality and adjust their prices to stay in the game, especially if they want to retain their 'elite' names.