Note how he doesn't drop the deal until right after he's become absolutely sure that Charlie doesn't know that angels aren't invincible. He knows that it's unlikely that she knows, but he's still smart enough to first receive verbal confirmation from Charlie that she thinks angels are invincible.
Alastor offered his assistance for the pleasure of seeing sinners fail spectacularly. She ordered him to assist the hotel so long as he wished to. In a way he is working for her. There are things he might not be able to do because of contract that he could get her to do.
1:36 I agree Charlie had been warming up to him, but when Alastor was in manipulator mode that episode, his liking of Charlie is a lot less convincing. Not to mention Alastor's long-term intentions with the Hotel being to let Charlie invite Sinners in for the entertainment in seeing her methods fail, but eventually having many different Sinners in one place might benefit him as an Overlord, and who knows if his soul contract has anything to do with it too. For now his and Charlie's "bond" is very one-sided. 8:21 For casual fans and new viewers, maybe, but hardcore fans of the Hellaverse (who would be a majority of the viewers of this show) would know from the meta lore about the demon power hierarchy (later visualized as the chart you used at 12:09), that the ruling family are the most powerful beings in Hell (potentially matched only by Roo but we have yet to meet her or see her power scaling). Because of how interpersonal she is, *Charlie just doesn't think about or maybe realize just how powerful she is*. 8:43 I don't think her reaction in the pilot was explicitly about him hurting her, but about his chaotic evil reputation that meant that his presence meant trouble for them and their business- not from his "hard power", but his "soft power" as a trickster who thrives on chaos. If her worry was about "hurting" them, it'd be mental or emotional hurt and how he'd hurt the hotel as a business. That's why she was wary not only of him but his intentions of helping with the hotel.
Part 1, 100%. They have a very complicated relationship and I can't wait to dig in a little more in my upcoming Charlie series. Part 2, it might be cool to have some kind of data on that kind of engagement, but I'm not at all sure how you would go about collecting it. Regardless, I'm personally of the opinion that media should be able to stand on its own without paratext. Paratext can enhance your enjoyment of a piece of media, but it isn't the media. Part 3, i think that's open to interpretation. I think my case is pretty strong, but I'm not too fussed if someone thinks differently. My question for you is: what are the broader implications of your evidence?
The last stand alone comment i was going to make is on the song ready for this. I really like your focus on the song as a part of Charlie and Alistor’s character development. It is very underrated. As a song it is… not the strongest written in words but also competition of music. I think the song needed only one or two melodies with maybe one bridge for Alistor’s and rosie. The song as a song lacks cohesion. It doesn’t flow. As a musically number in a story it is really important. I don’t know how intentional this was on Medrano’s part. The end of the song has a some royal brass when the canabals sing they are ready for it and when every one sings the time has come to go to war. That exact sound has a long history of being used to introduce the royal families of europe. The big brass makes the individual seem powerful and underlines both the royal’s martial prowess as princess and kings were supposed to be warriors. As well as their political might. The head or state governing or ruling the people. In theory it was a king or queen’s job to create or maintain peace and prosperity for the people. I like to think the strong brass in the end of the song represents Charlie striving for the goal of being a political and military leader. The canabals sining with the brass symbolizes they accept her command and will willing be her soldier in the upcoming fight. I probably saw more into the uses of brass than Medrano was going for. Just pretend this comment fits in with the discussions of hard and soft power…
Okay, I've finally had a moment to sit down and really go over this song verse by verse, and there's a lot going on. I hear three distinct melodies. The first kind is when Charlie asks "Have you ever wanted something that was so clear in your mind that you could taste it?" We actually get three distinct verses of this. The first verse and a half come right up at the front. The second starts when she asks, "Have you ever felt like you're willing to die to save the people of your city?" But unlike the last one, this doesn't resolve right away. She cuts the verse in half as she asks, "Who's with me?" The second half of this verse comes right after the cannibals say they want to taste an angel's wings (oh lord). This section of the song picks up, musically, where that second verse left off with "for the first time in my life, maybe i can be ready for this...when Adam brings the battle here, I must appear like I'm ready for this." The third verse comes at the end, and this time she's not singing alone. We get a true ensemble of voices backing her; her mission has been successful. The second kind shows up in two places. The first verse starts "wouldn't it be super to see more of Hell?" She's propagandizing to them, using a lot of the kinds of tactics that recruiters use to get people to sign up for the army. Travel, friendship, memories, cause, etc... And when this music comes back again with "Well, that's a little violent, can we tone it down?" Like, she's stirred them into a bloodthirsty frenzy and now she's commenting on it. Rosie jumps in and they keep the recruiter talk going. It makes perfect sense that these parts of the song sound the same. Finally, there's the part that sounds like, "it's time now to act; they're on the attack...so i say, oh hey, come join the flesh buffet!" This is in response to Charlie's propagandizing. It's a call and response. She sings, the cannibals sing. The second time we hear it is Alastor and Rosie's commentary on how enthusiastic they are. "They're dancing along; they're singing her song," so it again makes sense that it has the same musicality. So, what we have are three distinct musical ideas represented by three kinds of music that all weave together to tell a story. 1. charlie wants to tell everyone why she's here get them on board with her dream. 2. recruiting song 3. cannibals are on board with coming with her. With the instrumentation and the music styles chosen, I would say they actually work really well in a story telling sense. As for the instruments, I have my own theories about them, but I'm going to save the for my upcoming video series on how the songs work together to create, reflect, and bolster character and plot arcs.
@@chloeeastwood6696 extra creator points for taking time and crafting a response days later! I need to read your post a fee times before i can give you a quality response. (I have a mental disability. I am not a fast reader.)
what do you mean the pilot is no longer canon? it's still canon,I think your thinking of helluva boss pilot,cause I've never heard that the hazbin hotel pilot is no longer canon,I've never heard it from viv or anyone that's worked on the show
You know that moment you highlighted of vaggie tells charlie that maybe she could use some of the power she has in hell. With out knowing the plot twist with vaggie you could assume she is more versed in some of the soft and hard power dynamics of hell. She always comes off are more street smart than charlie after all. But knowing that vaggie has spend about three years in hell at that point. It is more interesting to consider her prior environment. I wonder when she says charlie could use she status to do stuff if she was thinking of someone like Lute or Adam. Both seems inclined to happy to wave around what ever power they have. The way he casually bullies charlie and then frames himself like he is really important in the hierarchy of Heaven. Or atleast he seems like his is trying to imply this when he walks down the cloud stairs. Lute seems awear that she and possible adam don’t have any real rank in heaven at least amongst angles important enough to be in the court room. Maybe amongst earth born soles Adam is important. Lute uses her proximity to adam to control the other exorcists. Adam seems like the type to abuse what ever power he has and try to make himself seem more powerful and important. Understanding that some of when we see is songs is not literal or diegetic. Songs are often mostly or entirely non diegetic but Haven is very ambiguous about this. So even if he did walk down to her on cloud steps i sure he did something to make himself seem more important that the princess of hell. That was more of a tangent. Where i was trying to go with all that is we know with complete certainty that Vaggie has to spend a lot of time near adam. This is how he acts. She spends time with the princess of hell who undersells who she is. At first that must have been really refreshing. But i am sure there are times when vaggie wishes charlie knew how to throw he weight around. Not that she ever wants charlie to be a narcissist or bully like Adam but certainly know how to play a strong hand during negotiations.
@@chloeeastwood6696 i am super interested what day to day life is like for the exorcists. Do they live in barrocos in a more isolated part of heaven. That would help with intra group control. Re enforce the culture of loyalty to adam and hatred is sinners. It is also easier to keep a secret that way. Not that heaven can’t be better tan earth but down here is really hard to keep a big secret among a lot of people. To the point where social scientists do research on real conspiracies and how they leaven, when and how many people it takes. I guess it just feels more realistic. Both as a pseudo military group and as a faction tasked with a really serious secret for them to be housed and bend a good chunk of the time isolated from broader society. I say all this (because i need someone to talk to) to explain why it took quite a few years for vaggie to finally rebel. I am just really interested what vaggie’s life was like. I hope we get to follow Lute around next season.
In the beginning you talk about charlie’s tone and word choice when she criticizes alisor. While you are probably right that she is a bit unsure of him and the strength of their professional relationship. I also this she is just conflicted averse. It is one of those second or third time watching hints i think. Lots of new fans watched the pilot after the first episode and took charlie’s reaction to the crappy add as establishing her lack of backbone and excessive need to stay positive.
The events of it are, but the pilot itself is paratext. If I had a similar scene in the series to work from, that would have been stronger evidence, but don't take my word for it. Medrano herself says it's only kind of canon.
I have a full video on what paratext is and how to use it, but the long story short is that unpublished materials (like interviews, livestreams, and notes) and materials published in other places (like reviews and, in this case, the pilot) are not text but paratext. You can use them in lit crit, but you can't use them the same way you use text. By saying that this pilot is not canon to the main series, I draw that distinction in my essay that the evidence I'm citing is not as strong as textual support and has the potential to be overwritten in the future. Nothing so far contradicts it, and I have no reason to think it will be, so I used it, but I want to acknowledge that my evidence for that point wasn't as strong as my other points that are supported by textual evidence.
Note how he doesn't drop the deal until right after he's become absolutely sure that Charlie doesn't know that angels aren't invincible. He knows that it's unlikely that she knows, but he's still smart enough to first receive verbal confirmation from Charlie that she thinks angels are invincible.
Alastor offered his assistance for the pleasure of seeing sinners fail spectacularly. She ordered him to assist the hotel so long as he wished to. In a way he is working for her.
There are things he might not be able to do because of contract that he could get her to do.
1:36 I agree Charlie had been warming up to him, but when Alastor was in manipulator mode that episode, his liking of Charlie is a lot less convincing. Not to mention Alastor's long-term intentions with the Hotel being to let Charlie invite Sinners in for the entertainment in seeing her methods fail, but eventually having many different Sinners in one place might benefit him as an Overlord, and who knows if his soul contract has anything to do with it too. For now his and Charlie's "bond" is very one-sided.
8:21 For casual fans and new viewers, maybe, but hardcore fans of the Hellaverse (who would be a majority of the viewers of this show) would know from the meta lore about the demon power hierarchy (later visualized as the chart you used at 12:09), that the ruling family are the most powerful beings in Hell (potentially matched only by Roo but we have yet to meet her or see her power scaling). Because of how interpersonal she is, *Charlie just doesn't think about or maybe realize just how powerful she is*.
8:43 I don't think her reaction in the pilot was explicitly about him hurting her, but about his chaotic evil reputation that meant that his presence meant trouble for them and their business- not from his "hard power", but his "soft power" as a trickster who thrives on chaos. If her worry was about "hurting" them, it'd be mental or emotional hurt and how he'd hurt the hotel as a business. That's why she was wary not only of him but his intentions of helping with the hotel.
Part 1, 100%. They have a very complicated relationship and I can't wait to dig in a little more in my upcoming Charlie series.
Part 2, it might be cool to have some kind of data on that kind of engagement, but I'm not at all sure how you would go about collecting it. Regardless, I'm personally of the opinion that media should be able to stand on its own without paratext. Paratext can enhance your enjoyment of a piece of media, but it isn't the media.
Part 3, i think that's open to interpretation. I think my case is pretty strong, but I'm not too fussed if someone thinks differently. My question for you is: what are the broader implications of your evidence?
great video and I like your eye makeup! Looking forward to part 4.
Thanks so much! It should be up next week!
The last stand alone comment i was going to make is on the song ready for this. I really like your focus on the song as a part of Charlie and Alistor’s character development. It is very underrated.
As a song it is… not the strongest written in words but also competition of music. I think the song needed only one or two melodies with maybe one bridge for Alistor’s and rosie. The song as a song lacks cohesion. It doesn’t flow.
As a musically number in a story it is really important. I don’t know how intentional this was on Medrano’s part. The end of the song has a some royal brass when the canabals sing they are ready for it and when every one sings the time has come to go to war.
That exact sound has a long history of being used to introduce the royal families of europe. The big brass makes the individual seem powerful and underlines both the royal’s martial prowess as princess and kings were supposed to be warriors. As well as their political might. The head or state governing or ruling the people. In theory it was a king or queen’s job to create or maintain peace and prosperity for the people.
I like to think the strong brass in the end of the song represents Charlie striving for the goal of being a political and military leader. The canabals sining with the brass symbolizes they accept her command and will willing be her soldier in the upcoming fight.
I probably saw more into the uses of brass than Medrano was going for.
Just pretend this comment fits in with the discussions of hard and soft power…
Alastor. His name is Alastor. Cannibals*
Okay, I've finally had a moment to sit down and really go over this song verse by verse, and there's a lot going on. I hear three distinct melodies.
The first kind is when Charlie asks "Have you ever wanted something that was so clear in your mind that you could taste it?" We actually get three distinct verses of this. The first verse and a half come right up at the front. The second starts when she asks, "Have you ever felt like you're willing to die to save the people of your city?" But unlike the last one, this doesn't resolve right away. She cuts the verse in half as she asks, "Who's with me?" The second half of this verse comes right after the cannibals say they want to taste an angel's wings (oh lord). This section of the song picks up, musically, where that second verse left off with "for the first time in my life, maybe i can be ready for this...when Adam brings the battle here, I must appear like I'm ready for this." The third verse comes at the end, and this time she's not singing alone. We get a true ensemble of voices backing her; her mission has been successful.
The second kind shows up in two places. The first verse starts "wouldn't it be super to see more of Hell?" She's propagandizing to them, using a lot of the kinds of tactics that recruiters use to get people to sign up for the army. Travel, friendship, memories, cause, etc... And when this music comes back again with "Well, that's a little violent, can we tone it down?" Like, she's stirred them into a bloodthirsty frenzy and now she's commenting on it. Rosie jumps in and they keep the recruiter talk going. It makes perfect sense that these parts of the song sound the same.
Finally, there's the part that sounds like, "it's time now to act; they're on the attack...so i say, oh hey, come join the flesh buffet!" This is in response to Charlie's propagandizing. It's a call and response. She sings, the cannibals sing. The second time we hear it is Alastor and Rosie's commentary on how enthusiastic they are. "They're dancing along; they're singing her song," so it again makes sense that it has the same musicality.
So, what we have are three distinct musical ideas represented by three kinds of music that all weave together to tell a story.
1. charlie wants to tell everyone why she's here get them on board with her dream.
2. recruiting song
3. cannibals are on board with coming with her.
With the instrumentation and the music styles chosen, I would say they actually work really well in a story telling sense.
As for the instruments, I have my own theories about them, but I'm going to save the for my upcoming video series on how the songs work together to create, reflect, and bolster character and plot arcs.
@@chloeeastwood6696 extra creator points for taking time and crafting a response days later!
I need to read your post a fee times before i can give you a quality response. (I have a mental disability. I am not a fast reader.)
what do you mean the pilot is no longer canon? it's still canon,I think your thinking of helluva boss pilot,cause I've never heard that the hazbin hotel pilot is no longer canon,I've never heard it from viv or anyone that's worked on the show
You know that moment you highlighted of vaggie tells charlie that maybe she could use some of the power she has in hell. With out knowing the plot twist with vaggie you could assume she is more versed in some of the soft and hard power dynamics of hell. She always comes off are more street smart than charlie after all.
But knowing that vaggie has spend about three years in hell at that point. It is more interesting to consider her prior environment. I wonder when she says charlie could use she status to do stuff if she was thinking of someone like Lute or Adam. Both seems inclined to happy to wave around what ever power they have. The way he casually bullies charlie and then frames himself like he is really important in the hierarchy of Heaven. Or atleast he seems like his is trying to imply this when he walks down the cloud stairs.
Lute seems awear that she and possible adam don’t have any real rank in heaven at least amongst angles important enough to be in the court room. Maybe amongst earth born soles Adam is important. Lute uses her proximity to adam to control the other exorcists.
Adam seems like the type to abuse what ever power he has and try to make himself seem more powerful and important. Understanding that some of when we see is songs is not literal or diegetic. Songs are often mostly or entirely non diegetic but Haven is very ambiguous about this. So even if he did walk down to her on cloud steps i sure he did something to make himself seem more important that the princess of hell.
That was more of a tangent. Where i was trying to go with all that is we know with complete certainty that Vaggie has to spend a lot of time near adam. This is how he acts. She spends time with the princess of hell who undersells who she is. At first that must have been really refreshing. But i am sure there are times when vaggie wishes charlie knew how to throw he weight around. Not that she ever wants charlie to be a narcissist or bully like Adam but certainly know how to play a strong hand during negotiations.
It's definitely an interesting perspective to consider!
@@chloeeastwood6696 i am super interested what day to day life is like for the exorcists. Do they live in barrocos in a more isolated part of heaven. That would help with intra group control. Re enforce the culture of loyalty to adam and hatred is sinners. It is also easier to keep a secret that way.
Not that heaven can’t be better tan earth but down here is really hard to keep a big secret among a lot of people. To the point where social scientists do research on real conspiracies and how they leaven, when and how many people it takes.
I guess it just feels more realistic. Both as a pseudo military group and as a faction tasked with a really serious secret for them to be housed and bend a good chunk of the time isolated from broader society.
I say all this (because i need someone to talk to) to explain why it took quite a few years for vaggie to finally rebel. I am just really interested what vaggie’s life was like. I hope we get to follow Lute around next season.
If theories are truth, the favour will be to convince Lilith to recoque their contract 😅
Oh cr*p... I should have waited until the end of the video 😅
Haha, well, that shows we're on the same wavelength!
In the beginning you talk about charlie’s tone and word choice when she criticizes alisor. While you are probably right that she is a bit unsure of him and the strength of their professional relationship. I also this she is just conflicted averse.
It is one of those second or third time watching hints i think. Lots of new fans watched the pilot after the first episode and took charlie’s reaction to the crappy add as establishing her lack of backbone and excessive need to stay positive.
Yeah, that sounds about right. :)
the pilot is still canon
The events of it are, but the pilot itself is paratext. If I had a similar scene in the series to work from, that would have been stronger evidence, but don't take my word for it. Medrano herself says it's only kind of canon.
@@chloeeastwood6696 when did viv say that? cause I've not heard that ever
I have a full video on what paratext is and how to use it, but the long story short is that unpublished materials (like interviews, livestreams, and notes) and materials published in other places (like reviews and, in this case, the pilot) are not text but paratext. You can use them in lit crit, but you can't use them the same way you use text. By saying that this pilot is not canon to the main series, I draw that distinction in my essay that the evidence I'm citing is not as strong as textual support and has the potential to be overwritten in the future. Nothing so far contradicts it, and I have no reason to think it will be, so I used it, but I want to acknowledge that my evidence for that point wasn't as strong as my other points that are supported by textual evidence.