Hey the phone got too hot and around 1:21:41 it shuts off and the next place you should jump to is….1:23:52 for where we get back into it! I’ll edit it on Sunday and have the audio as a podcast on my Patreon on Monday in addition to all my other YT video audios! Thanks! ❤️
Manti is a special place, yo! My hometown. Seriously though, I always thought that was quite intrepid of Moroni to travel to Manti to bless the hill for a temple and then head thousands of miles east to the final resting place-destination for the plates. This story is true, for the Mormon Miracle Pageant told me so. ;-)
Perfect, keep doing videos. I love it! Just sent you some pics from my chapel where I will never fully finish repenting! Actually I am kinda proud of my sins leaving the church.
I was born in 1968. I remember hearing Spencer W. Kimball speaking on our local (Dallas, Texas) news about the lifting of the race ban. We were in the car going to my aunt's and uncle's house when we heard the news on the radio. There were a certain segment of members at our ward who were very disturbed by the news. My uncle quit going to church afterward. When we got to my aunt's and uncle's house, Uncle J. was totally flipping out. He was using swear words I had never heard before. It was HUGE deal at the time. My mother (who was not racist) told me that the church had done the right thing and that Uncle J. was the one who was wrong. As I got older I started wondering why it took so long for this "revelation" to happen. It took much longer for me to realize the whole religion was the opposite of "truth".
God has his own timetable ,God knows the calamity to come and we have no right to question it ,Jesus come here on earth in a propertime And this I testify that the book of Mormon is true it existed in a propertime to be preach unto this dying world
@@alexbuscas3170 I testify that you are foolish and if you keep hanging out on these videos you are going to hear the truth maybe it will find place in you maybe when you hear the truth you will have the strength to leave the church if you don't want that to happen then quit hanging out where the truth is shared
@@alexbuscas3170 imagine being so stupid that you’ll literally admit to not questioning anything and never researching or trying to educate yourself and thinking that somehow makes you a better person than the rest of us.
I've always thought the story of the Mormon barges in the book of Ether is absurd. Here you have eight airtight barges with a bunch of people, their livestock and bees sealed up inside, getting blown across the ocean by a furious wind. Apparently both the top and bottom of the barges were the same, since the Lord had them bore a hole in both the top and bottom, so that whichever side happened to be facing up could have a stopper removed to let in air. First of all, a single hole is not going to have any air circulation, so the people and their livestock would likely have suffocated. Then, can you imagine these barges rolling over and over in the "mountain waves" and plunging into the depths in the "great and terrible tempests" with people and animals flying every which way inside them, along with hives of bees? That would have been a merry old time!
And not to mention, the book of Mormon says the voyage lasted for 344 days and that they were blown by furious winds, let's imagine that these furious wins only propelled the boats at 10 mph for 344 days they would have traveled almost 82,000 mi. They could have circumnavigated the globe three and a half times
@@MykArd . Joe got a little carried away in his attempt to create literary distance from the Noah’s ark story. Liars feel compelled to add weird and unnatural details to their stories to make them more believable
I went through my faith crisis from 2014-2018 and I just have to say...latter day exmos have it good with content available! I was so lost and trapped in Idaho surrounded by my ultra mormon and ultra toxic family. I learned a lot and had to trek through unchartered territory. In a way, I feel much closer to my ancestors because I actually have had to go against the grain and experience hatred and persecution...ironically from my own tribe. I was absolutely fascinated by this video. Thanks so much for your energy, Cara. You are so vulnerable and bold and I really admire your ability to keep it real and spill the real tea
I went through my faith crisis in 2013-2014. I didn't know about Mormon Stories for several years afterward. I discovered M.S. and other exmo TH-cam's starting in 2018.
All 4 of my grandparents(Texas and Arizona) never got over the race issues concerning Indigenous Americans and POC. So shameful. So embarrassing. Moving from Texas to South Carolina for the last 23 years made me realize that racism is still alive and well among members. So sad.
"Indistinguishable from a fraud" are the words I've been looking for ever since I left. So many aspects of the church are exactly as you would expect them to be if the church were a fraud. Even if there was a possible church-affirming argument for every issue with Mormonism, you would still have to believe that a God who thinks infinite torture is an appropriate punishment for not believing in a church that looks so much like a fraud is worth worshipping, and I just don't.
Honestly, just trust in God. You don’t need to be a part of this church to have your own relationship with God. Relationship over religion. For my own self, I have had my own undeniable witness of the restored gospel. I’m not saying come back. But I’m also not saying leave God. People will fail but Jesus can never. He would and could NEVER. His love is infinite for all of us. Put your trust in Him, build your rock on Him. You CANNOT fall when built on Him.
@@danielwalker2381 No thank you, the process of deconstructing Mormonism helped me deconstruct the concept of a Christian god as wll. Not only do most Christian churches depict God as immoral, unjust, and cruel, but the only God I would deem worth worshipping is a God who does not factor in your feelings towards them when deciding your worthiness, considers intentions and circumstances, and recognizes our ability to grow before AND after death. Personally, I'd love to believe in an afterlife and some kind of diety, but I can't believe in something I don't believe in. I just try to live my life in a way that makes me and others happy, and if there's a good god, they'll treat me the same as anyone else who does that.
The people sunk into unbelief anyway... AND apparently Joseph didn't even need the plates to "translate" the Book of Mormon. Now we know he didn't use the plates at all, he just stuck his head in a hat. So Laban died for literally no reason.
I talked to this Mormon once that said that the reason Black people were banned from the priesthood was because the church was so vulnerable that had they accepted Black people at the time, the church wouldn't have lasted due to all the persecution they'd have received. I'm convinced some people know the church is bullshit and just can't accept that they can be wrong sometimes, and he's one of them.
@@madisonc489 I was always told we didn't know and that we just have to trust that God had his reasons, which is a lame enough excuse when it's about normal things, but when it's something that any normal person would just assume was racism, you're gonna have to come up with something better than that.
@@advisorywarning Right? And it was 1978 for God's sake. We're supposed to believe the church was so uniquely discriminated against that in 1978, they had to be racist or their entire religion would've been destroyed?? What a pathetic excuse
I wish you had a TRDL (too random didn't listen) version. I know there is lots of great info, but I wish there was a "cut to the chase" button. If someone could make a content list with time stamps......
You know? When you stop to think about it. Praying for your keys and things when there are children being abused, going hungry, and all manner of terrible situations is pretty damn selfish. And the fact that “God” supposedly intervenes for your keys but not the pleading of an abused child is about as messed up as can be.
12:12 - I do believe we need to move away from our faith. It is the dogged determination to believe in what we cannot know and does not adhere to reality, that slows our progression toward recognizing actual truth and dealing with it.
It's hillarious to think that an ocean going ship was built on the Arabian Peninsula at that time. Dhows (small Arabian sail boats) were built to enable locals to spear fish. They were made of wood planks, tied with coconut string. They were pointed at both ends, with a triangular sail attached to a fixed pole. Although later Dhows could travel into deeper water, they could not yet travel as Mormonism suggests. JS had a habit of creating great fairy stories, forgetting that mankind is fast progressing and, wait for it, would one day have computers & Internet. Shame, it was a great tale.
He also places the building of the boats along a river in a place that was named Bountiful. JS never knew that Saudi Arabia is the worlds largest continuous land mass that has no rivers. None. There's some seasonal streams if it rains but no rivers. And it's been that way for thousands of years.
I enjoyed the relaxed nature of this video. 92 degrees, yikes! We’re still in the 50’s here. Light skinned Europeans are not ancient. Studies of ancient genomes have shown that ancient Europeans had dark skin & blue eyes. Cheddar man had dark skin & blue eyes. Same for a 7000 year old man who lived in modern day Spain. The new diet that was a result of the agricultural revolution influenced skin tones. Also mate selection. Also latitude. It wasn’t one factor. And it definitely had nothing to do with valiance or preexistence fence-sitting. That’s nutty.
Love this talk of facts and evidence! 😇 I also enjoyed how we had the same face when Bill was talking about the Book of Abraham, and what they took out, then put back in... I turned my screen on and rewound to check. 🤪 So proud of Reel coming out of "the" church @ 32, AS A BISHOP!
@@Kalama_Llama_King_Kong show me ethnic racism in the Bible I’ll wait. “There Is neither Greek or Jew, free or slave, man or woman, barbarian or Scythian for you are all one in the lord Jesus Christ” Now if you want to say there is racism in Judaism then fine I’ll give you that, but not in Christianity.
@@thetriunegodsofficalfanpag4442 Gotcha. I think we agree then. I'm looking at the chosen people Uber nationalism. Agreed. NT casts that away. Great point. Thank you.
I’m also 52. I don’t exactly think I should say she resonates with me since I’ve never been Mormon and don’t live in a Mormon area, but she is so compelling, intelligent and entertaining I can not stop binge watching!
Carah, if you ever come down to SG again and not let me give you a high five and thank you for your content then I will be pretty ticked off 😂 But really, you, Bill, RFM (love this dynamic duo!), John Dehlin, John Larsen (love John Larsen!), LDS Discussions, Sammy, Nemo, the whole crew is phenomenal. I left mormonism a long time ago due to the limited knowledge I had about what was hid: BoA, Joe's polyandry and underage plural wives, rock in a hat. That's all I knew and left with that. Since that time I got back involved in fully deconstructing and went down the rabbit hole of the extent of how bad the messiness is and it is fascinating. I love to learn more and more and I really do appreciate the amount of time and energy you all put into this. I need to stop by the shop in Hurricane and chat with Bill some time.
I grew up in the church, but stopped going when I was about 18. I always read the Bible and Book of Mormon as fables. Meaning, I didn’t believe the stories to have actually occurred, but were fables to help you get through life and make good decisions. At any rate, I also believe that all religions are manmade due to greed, control, or fear. I was starting to become an atheist in my late 20s, then I took an astronomy class for college. Surprisingly, that’s what made me believe in a higher being again. Our universe, solar system, earth is just too much to be a coincidence. What are the odds that every thing came into place to cause the seasons, rain, air, and human beings. Think about everything that had to happen to create and make this planet work and it is just amazing. No one knows the answer about God. Just do whatever gives you peace and helps you be a better person. ❤️❤️
It’s not “too much to be a coincidence” it’s complex partials following natural processes. And if “no one knows the answer about God” then we’re all atheists.
“And it came to pass that after he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands and fell; and after that he had struggled for breath, he died.” How does he struggle for breath with his head chopped off?
Ironically I think it’s when learning about Heber J. Grant that we can see the way Mormonism operates. We see his abuse of power to implement the very dogmatic way he was raised to think. We consider his strong willed mother and his father who died when he was an infant. We see the nepotism and the imposition of HJGs personal dogma that he imposed on the Church. He was in power so long we should all know more about him; not just the whitewashed version we are spoon-fed
loved this! I think it is amazing the wall we put up mentally. We really did just overplay the miracle card in our justifications for how everything could have happened. I loved Utcorfs talk a few years ago where he compared belief to two airplane wings, faith, and logic. But under Mormonism, our airplane is just spinning in circles on the tarmac because there is no logical basis for how the historical events could have taken place. also Talmage was an apostle, early 1900's. He wrote Jesus the Christ. In the footnotes, he said that land northward was north America, land southward south america. Interesting to me on how that view was held by members, during that time, changed later.
I always love it when the answer from a TBM will be to follow the “Prophet” and the so-called “Law” of Chastity. Not a prophet and not a law. It’s like saying I have stipulated to these conditions and they are assuming I believe these concepts too. No I don’t and they never have a better idea. It all works when you suspend reality
Moroni at Manti is not nearly as "bad" as a stack of rocks being pronounced Adam-ondi-Ahman and the whole Story about The Garden of Eden in Missouri...and Ground Zero for the return of Christ and the building of Zion.
When you are flying a plane, the dynamic is different. Depending on your visual, you can very easily lose track of direction as in up or down. Many planes have crashed from this phenomenon including JFK Junior's last flight. That is why knowing how to fly exclusively with your instructors is so important
I hadn’t heard the “catalyst” theory before, but I thought of it myself within a different context yesterday. “What if Joseph Smith is a fraud, but God still managed to use him to create the BoM, which is true?” It’s similar mental gymnastics. However, in either case the structure collapses as you realize that neither the prophet nor the works produced hold up to any degree of scrutiny.
Re racial stuff- Bill's comments on group size and us/them is very good. There is a book called Prisoners of Geography, which explores how the places people are affected the history of those communities. One key comparison was areas of easy trade, navigable rivers, access etc lead to urban contexts. The very way we use the word civilised = developed rather than the more accurate 'of the city" ie urban, shows how those cultures consider themselves advanced and clever. Meanwhile groups of humans who don't create as big an impact on the land where they live got classed as' uncivilised '. Yet the prisoners of geography book noted that in large areas of Africa rivers have great waterfalls or other reasons why trade would stay more local and affect how societies developed. Of course there were long distance trading but it was harder. Because the Europeans considered themselves as advanced and then took over countries full of people who did not do things their way, the idea of native cultures as 'primative' also was a key aspect to racism. In the light of the impact of 'civilisation' on the wellbeing of the planet, I question which is the advanced and sustainable cultures.
That's wild! I have a cousin from Port Clinton and I'm watching from just an hour south of there. Fortunately, I was never Mormon so I'm just watching out of curiosity.
@@MormonDiscussion Hey Bill, have you ever done an episode on where Joey Baloney came up with all of his names and places in The Book of Mormon? For example, Alma is a city in Michigan. Lehigh is a city in Pennsylvania. I think he got Hill Cumorah from Captain Kidd comics. Anyway, I just thought that it'd be interesting if someone ever took the time to research some of that.
Born and indoctrinated into the church and when I asked at 5 years old why my first friend ever died of cancer my parents told me it was god’s plan…from then on I was terrified of god, his “plan” and the wrath I would incur if I went astray.
In relation to the Nephi ship, another analogy could be something along the lines that "SpaceX, Blue Origin, Virgin Galactic, etc. are making rockets that can go to space, so therefore I should be able to build a rocket to go to space"...
A very strange Mormon thing. The word "anciently" used as an adverb to describe something(s) that happened in distant past. I have never seen or heard "anciently" used by anyone else beside Mormons.
The snakes past and present from the temple paintings gathered in Manti and had to be removed. Come on Mormons get creative. It will increase faith. You can build a testimony on it!
Bill Reel should offer Personal Worthiness Interviews for a few. I miss the exquisite terror of such invasive inquisitions. I miss the guilt. Bill, please offer this tool of shame for exMo's. If successful to you could then offer to Patriarchal Blessings.
LMAO, one of the best comments on this page. When the church sells off a chapel we could make an unbelievers "temple" out of it, fill it with ping pong tables and then hold unworthiness interviews to enter.
My great uncle and aunt lived in Port Clinton. I used to go out to visit and fish. Then go to his house for fish fries. Best fish I ever ate. I live just east in Bay Village
Your description of what it's like to leave Mormonism and realize how much more wisdom and thought there is out there that you could've been consuming this entire time is what leaving the right was like for me. The most intellectual thing I consumed as a on the right was probably like Armoured Skeptic videos lmao. Then, when I started frequenting more left-leaning internet spaces, I realized how much more the left values learning and reason. It's not enough to just watch TH-cam videos. If you really want to keep up, you also have to consume film and literature from all different eras, learn the basics of every subject you can, learn how to read science writing and comprehend/think critically about it, and so much more. I've been on the left for a while, but have only recently discovered these spaces and honestly, it's thrilling. I feel like I will never run out of books to read or skills to learn.
1:10:26 The difference between the catalyst theory and Joseph making it up is that the LDS god actually exists in the first scenario but he doesn't exist in the later. The problem is that, since you can't tell the difference, you can't have actual _knowledge_ that it is in fact an authentic book of scripture. edit: And to pray about it to know if it is scripture is to simply presume the LDS god exists. So you could never justify a claim to knowledge of it's authenticity except through pain of circularity.
Presupposition is the keystone of faith’s foundation. I mean, if Noah could do what the Bible claims he did-or any of the crazy ass things claimed in the Bible…”because God…”
The male misogynistic, narcissistic, repulsive, psychotic personality traits were just too great for me to ever accept. I passified my surroundings until I could leave.
New Testament Jesus is not all Love and Rainbows. He approves of poor people spending money they don't have on oil for his feet, because "The poor will always be with you, but I am here for a short time." Matthew 26:11. He also praises the poor widow for giving money she can't afford to the running of the temple. Justification for sure for tithing no matter how poor you are. He promises to come back and kill most people and save only a few--like a "thief in the night", and that those saved are few and those destroyed many. I could go on. You have to disregard so much of what Jesus said and did, to create a loving, inclusive version.
Good questioning. Take things a bit less figuratively. The expensive oil was in honor of her understanding. Even women back then we're important figures The widow was wiser. As we age we build up more time of sacrificing. It never was about tithing. Etc. Etc. Jesus taught in parables.
As someone from outside the LDS Church, both Mormon deconstructionists and apologists confound me. The Book of Mormon is unworthy of consideration as anything but a science-fiction epic. Why would anyone need to talk themselves out of it? P.S.- Arrakis isn't real, either...
I'm a non-mo, but wasn't Moroni an angel. So why did he have to travel like a human. New temple coming to Modesto, Ca near where I live...I am shocked. We are only about 90 miles from Oakland...why is one needed in Modesto???
27:35 My thoughts exactly. If I die and find out that God is real, that bastard is going to have to answer to me. He better dissolve me to native element or I will spend my eternity... let's put it this way, God F'ed up giving me free will. I will use it.
In my opinion, one of the most anti intellectual principle ever to come out of religion is the treatment of faith as a virtue. You can bet that the holy grail precursor scam for every conman in the world is to convince all their skeptics and critics of that one idea. If you can do that you've won half the battle.
Love you guys! Sin = death Jesus= life I'm Joyfull you guys got out of that cult, the biblical Jesus is alive and well! I'm born again Christian and I love talking to Mormon missionaries but they just shut down when faced with Joseph Smith's actual life! Anyway, being a member of any church doesn't save you, going to church doesn't save you, belief on Jesus of the Bible saves! Religion is man seeking God Jesus is God seeking man!
Are there people who have a religion in spite of knowing it's man made and fake? Maybe they enjoy the community? I just find it crazy to argue that certain facts aren't true, is not the whole thing made up anyway?
To the vast majority of Mormons the whole point is that it’s actually real/true/historical. I am only 27 but I grew up believing evolution was false, young earth, Joseph smith had gold plates, etc
@@bob15479 That's very interesting to hear. Seems so strange to think people actually believe all this is real. Then again I was basically raised without religion. My mom stopped going to our congregational church when I was in third grade, I'm just a few years older than you, and my dad has never had a religion in his life. I don't even think then scripture was viewed as divine or true even then. Surely it isn't now for mainstream protestants. It's viewed as a historical document and a product of its time, and not really something meant to take at face value.
@@OnusofStrife I am constantly astounded that sooo many protestants of all types believe Moses was real, Noah was real, Jesus was real. It’s ludicrous.
@@OnusofStrife Growing up Mormon, it was always fascinating for me to see how they have no problem mocking people of other religions, but then they call it blasphemy to even consider the fact that their own ideology and rituals might be just as ludicrous. It's as hypocritical as it gets, and yet they flat-out refuse to see it that way. When you have this you're-either-with-us-or-against-us good-side/bad-side mentality, it's impossible to get through to them... "No, I KNOW without a doubt that The Church is true. God has manifested it to me over and over through The Spirit, and you can never take that away from me, so don't even try!"
People still do live in tribes, Indigenous people exist all over the world. How you talked about tribal religions and Indigenous collectivism like they're a part of the past and we've evolved past starting at like 9:45 seems a little racist? I'm sure that's not what you meant but I thought I should say something.
I will say gravity can also take your head down to the ground-Lol- but the pressure in your head KNOWS the difference! haha. But the absurdities in the BOM and the BIBLE are soo far out there. I never believed them as a kid and can still Not understand how anyone can. But people believe all kinds of things and I went out of my way to make up a god to show my daughter confirmation bias. (I raised her without any belief in those magical things). But I said to her even though supposedly the Christian God just watched while kids were abused and did nothing to help -I had always really had good luck finding parking. Maybe gods control parking! The way I actually find parking as I drive around and drive around and drive around and then find parking. The reality is I don’t have good luck finding parking the first time so I keep trying. So I made up A group of Gods we called the parking God’s. and we had pretend prayers that we would find good spaces and of course we did-even if we had to circle for 20 minutes! But then I started applying it to other things like once we went to the theater and it was very crowded and my hip was hurting and I said I’m going to pray to the parking gods that the seat next to me stays empty so I can keep stretching my leg out that way. And funny enough every single seat in the theater was taken except for two and then a person came in and sat in that other one so that the seat next to me was the only seat out of hundreds that stayed empty. Proof! Total proof of the parking gods existence. L O L You would think it was a one in 230 odd chance probably. But also it was really way less than that because the theater was almost full already when I verbalized the desire to have the seat open. So the odds were more like one in 25. I have expanded it to “dear parking gods I would like you to park that money into my account very quickly”. And then the check arrived in the mail.! Proof! At this point we’ve had so many good things that came after we jokingly asked the parking gods that we are almost convinced ourselves. Except we know we made them up. And we refuse to believe absurdities like that.
"Anything is possible with God" is called by philosophers a thought termination cliche. It is a statement in which you give yourself permission to longer exercise critical thinking skills.
Hey the phone got too hot and around 1:21:41 it shuts off and the next place you should jump to is….1:23:52 for where we get back into it! I’ll edit it on Sunday and have the audio as a podcast on my Patreon on Monday in addition to all my other YT video audios! Thanks! ❤️
Manti is a special place, yo! My hometown. Seriously though, I always thought that was quite intrepid of Moroni to travel to Manti to bless the hill for a temple and then head thousands of miles east to the final resting place-destination for the plates. This story is true, for the Mormon Miracle Pageant told me so. ;-)
Go Manti! And Ephraim. 😂
Perfect, keep doing videos. I love it! Just sent you some pics from my chapel where I will never fully finish repenting! Actually I am kinda proud of my sins leaving the church.
I was born in 1968. I remember hearing Spencer W. Kimball speaking on our local (Dallas, Texas) news about the lifting of the race ban. We were in the car going to my aunt's and uncle's house when we heard the news on the radio. There were a certain segment of members at our ward who were very disturbed by the news. My uncle quit going to church afterward. When we got to my aunt's and uncle's house, Uncle J. was totally flipping out. He was using swear words I had never heard before. It was HUGE deal at the time. My mother (who was not racist) told me that the church had done the right thing and that Uncle J. was the one who was wrong. As I got older I started wondering why it took so long for this "revelation" to happen. It took much longer for me to realize the whole religion was the opposite of "truth".
God has his own timetable ,God knows the calamity to come and we have no right to question it ,Jesus come here on earth in a propertime
And this I testify that the book of Mormon is true it existed in a propertime to be preach unto this dying world
@@alexbuscas3170 I testify that you are foolish and if you keep hanging out on these videos you are going to hear the truth maybe it will find place in you maybe when you hear the truth you will have the strength to leave the church if you don't want that to happen then quit hanging out where the truth is shared
@@alexbuscas3170Well I testify that it’s not true so I guess we’ve cancelled each other out. 🤷♀️
@@alexbuscas3170 We have the right to question everything.
Anyone who says otherwise is not your ally, advocate, or friend.
@@alexbuscas3170 imagine being so stupid that you’ll literally admit to not questioning anything and never researching or trying to educate yourself and thinking that somehow makes you a better person than the rest of us.
I've always thought the story of the Mormon barges in the book of Ether is absurd. Here you have eight airtight barges with a bunch of people, their livestock and bees sealed up inside, getting blown across the ocean by a furious wind. Apparently both the top and bottom of the barges were the same, since the Lord had them bore a hole in both the top and bottom, so that whichever side happened to be facing up could have a stopper removed to let in air. First of all, a single hole is not going to have any air circulation, so the people and their livestock would likely have suffocated. Then, can you imagine these barges rolling over and over in the "mountain waves" and plunging into the depths in the "great and terrible tempests" with people and animals flying every which way inside them, along with hives of bees? That would have been a merry old time!
Truly a hell on earth. “If thou shalt suffereth for air, unstoppeth the hole” Yeah, ya think ?!
I thought that it was a joke when I heard it.
And not to mention, the book of Mormon says the voyage lasted for 344 days and that they were blown by furious winds, let's imagine that these furious wins only propelled the boats at 10 mph for 344 days they would have traveled almost 82,000 mi. They could have circumnavigated the globe three and a half times
@@michaeltaylors2456If the interior of the boat is large enough to hold everyone/everything, the top hole would be unreachable.
@@MykArd . Joe got a little carried away in his attempt to create literary distance from the Noah’s ark story. Liars feel compelled to add weird and unnatural details to their stories to make them more believable
I went through my faith crisis from 2014-2018 and I just have to say...latter day exmos have it good with content available! I was so lost and trapped in Idaho surrounded by my ultra mormon and ultra toxic family. I learned a lot and had to trek through unchartered territory. In a way, I feel much closer to my ancestors because I actually have had to go against the grain and experience hatred and persecution...ironically from my own tribe. I was absolutely fascinated by this video. Thanks so much for your energy, Cara. You are so vulnerable and bold and I really admire your ability to keep it real and spill the real tea
I’m there now. In the faith crisis.
@@julieschafer2991 you’re not alone! This is the beginning of a beautiful and bright journey for you. You got this ❤️
I went through my faith crisis in 2013-2014. I didn't know about Mormon Stories for several years afterward. I discovered M.S. and other exmo TH-cam's starting in 2018.
I was angry that Rod Meldrum broke Cara and she left MSP. So SO SOOOO glad to see and hear you back at it. Love you girl!!!
nah, he didn’t break her. just illuminated her truth
She is the best. Mel drum is a tool. Can’t wait to visit his pawn shop. Y’all go support Carah’s patreon! Well worth it. Smart chicks rock!
Meldumb.....lol
All 4 of my grandparents(Texas and Arizona) never got over the race issues concerning Indigenous Americans and POC. So shameful. So embarrassing. Moving from Texas to South Carolina for the last 23 years made me realize that racism is still alive and well among members. So sad.
"Indistinguishable from a fraud" are the words I've been looking for ever since I left. So many aspects of the church are exactly as you would expect them to be if the church were a fraud. Even if there was a possible church-affirming argument for every issue with Mormonism, you would still have to believe that a God who thinks infinite torture is an appropriate punishment for not believing in a church that looks so much like a fraud is worth worshipping, and I just don't.
Honestly, just trust in God. You don’t need to be a part of this church to have your own relationship with God. Relationship over religion. For my own self, I have had my own undeniable witness of the restored gospel. I’m not saying come back. But I’m also not saying leave God. People will fail but Jesus can never. He would and could NEVER. His love is infinite for all of us. Put your trust in Him, build your rock on Him. You CANNOT fall when built on Him.
@@danielwalker2381 No thank you, the process of deconstructing Mormonism helped me deconstruct the concept of a Christian god as wll. Not only do most Christian churches depict God as immoral, unjust, and cruel, but the only God I would deem worth worshipping is a God who does not factor in your feelings towards them when deciding your worthiness, considers intentions and circumstances, and recognizes our ability to grow before AND after death.
Personally, I'd love to believe in an afterlife and some kind of diety, but I can't believe in something I don't believe in. I just try to live my life in a way that makes me and others happy, and if there's a good god, they'll treat me the same as anyone else who does that.
The people sunk into unbelief anyway... AND apparently Joseph didn't even need the plates to "translate" the Book of Mormon. Now we know he didn't use the plates at all, he just stuck his head in a hat. So Laban died for literally no reason.
“Thou art a robber, and I will slay thee”. Ed Wood level script writing
I talked to this Mormon once that said that the reason Black people were banned from the priesthood was because the church was so vulnerable that had they accepted Black people at the time, the church wouldn't have lasted due to all the persecution they'd have received. I'm convinced some people know the church is bullshit and just can't accept that they can be wrong sometimes, and he's one of them.
Yet they decided to land on polygamy even though that was illegal too🙄🙄
this is the story I was told too. Never made any sense.
@@madisonc489 I was always told we didn't know and that we just have to trust that God had his reasons, which is a lame enough excuse when it's about normal things, but when it's something that any normal person would just assume was racism, you're gonna have to come up with something better than that.
@@advisorywarning Right? And it was 1978 for God's sake. We're supposed to believe the church was so uniquely discriminated against that in 1978, they had to be racist or their entire religion would've been destroyed?? What a pathetic excuse
@@aubreetanner9543 whiteshift is not as innocuous as you may think it sounds.
I wish you had a TRDL (too random didn't listen) version. I know there is lots of great info, but I wish there was a "cut to the chase" button. If someone could make a content list with time stamps......
You know? When you stop to think about it. Praying for your keys and things when there are children being abused, going hungry, and all manner of terrible situations is pretty damn selfish. And the fact that “God” supposedly intervenes for your keys but not the pleading of an abused child is about as messed up as can be.
12:12 - I do believe we need to move away from our faith. It is the dogged determination to believe in what we cannot know and does not adhere to reality, that slows our progression toward recognizing actual truth and dealing with it.
It's hillarious to think that an ocean going ship was built on the Arabian Peninsula at that time. Dhows (small Arabian sail boats) were built to enable locals to spear fish. They were made of wood planks, tied with coconut string. They were pointed at both ends, with a triangular sail attached to a fixed pole. Although later Dhows could travel into deeper water, they could not yet travel as Mormonism suggests. JS had a habit of creating great fairy stories, forgetting that mankind is fast progressing and, wait for it, would one day have computers & Internet. Shame, it was a great tale.
with god all is possible... except curing cancer, eradicating poverty, stopping victims from being raped
He also places the building of the boats along a river in a place that was named Bountiful. JS never knew that Saudi Arabia is the worlds largest continuous land mass that has no rivers. None. There's some seasonal streams if it rains but no rivers. And it's been that way for thousands of years.
Coconut fibers?
I enjoyed the relaxed nature of this video. 92 degrees, yikes! We’re still in the 50’s here.
Light skinned Europeans are not ancient. Studies of ancient genomes have shown that ancient Europeans had dark skin & blue eyes. Cheddar man had dark skin & blue eyes. Same for a 7000 year old man who lived in modern day Spain. The new diet that was a result of the agricultural revolution influenced skin tones. Also mate selection. Also latitude. It wasn’t one factor. And it definitely had nothing to do with valiance or preexistence fence-sitting. That’s nutty.
Love this talk of facts and evidence! 😇
I also enjoyed how we had the same face when Bill was talking about the Book of Abraham, and what they took out, then put back in... I turned my screen on and rewound to check. 🤪 So proud of Reel coming out of "the" church @ 32, AS A BISHOP!
You two are like chocolate and peanut butter - great in your own, but even better together. Love you both.
Great to see you both together. Love you both❤👍
At the core of the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham is racism. The church can't get away from it because these are its scriptures.
I would add it’s at the core of the Bible, as well.
I would say the boiled-down bilge at the core is elitism, of which racism is one part. Another part is sexism. And classism. What do you think?
@@sookie.smooth I think, Amen!
@@Kalama_Llama_King_Kong show me ethnic racism in the Bible I’ll wait. “There Is neither Greek or Jew, free or slave, man or woman, barbarian or Scythian for you are all one in the lord Jesus Christ”
Now if you want to say there is racism in Judaism then fine I’ll give you that, but not in Christianity.
@@thetriunegodsofficalfanpag4442 Gotcha. I think we agree then. I'm looking at the chosen people Uber nationalism. Agreed. NT casts that away. Great point. Thank you.
When the car alarm went off about 2 min from the end I thought “Moroni got his wings!”
Awesome! My two favorite people! Love the backyard in closure! LOL! ♥️
Keep up the good work Nuancehoe. Enjoyed this collaboration with Bill Reel.
Guys. I've got the answer. Whenever it doesn't make sense? Put your face in the hat and ask the stone. Boooooom
Carah is so intelligent, funny and articluate, I enjoy listening to her. I’m 52 so a Gen Xer, but she resonates with me.
Awwwww ❤️❤️❤️
I’m also 52. I don’t exactly think I should say she resonates with me since I’ve never been Mormon and don’t live in a Mormon area, but she is so compelling, intelligent and entertaining I can not stop binge watching!
Carah, if you ever come down to SG again and not let me give you a high five and thank you for your content then I will be pretty ticked off 😂 But really, you, Bill, RFM (love this dynamic duo!), John Dehlin, John Larsen (love John Larsen!), LDS Discussions, Sammy, Nemo, the whole crew is phenomenal. I left mormonism a long time ago due to the limited knowledge I had about what was hid: BoA, Joe's polyandry and underage plural wives, rock in a hat. That's all I knew and left with that. Since that time I got back involved in fully deconstructing and went down the rabbit hole of the extent of how bad the messiness is and it is fascinating. I love to learn more and more and I really do appreciate the amount of time and energy you all put into this. I need to stop by the shop in Hurricane and chat with Bill some time.
I grew up in the church, but stopped going when I was about 18. I always read the Bible and Book of Mormon as fables. Meaning, I didn’t believe the stories to have actually occurred, but were fables to help you get through life and make good decisions.
At any rate, I also believe that all religions are manmade due to greed, control, or fear.
I was starting to become an atheist in my late 20s, then I took an astronomy class for college.
Surprisingly, that’s what made me believe in a higher being again. Our universe, solar system, earth is just too much to be a coincidence.
What are the odds that every thing came into place to cause the seasons, rain, air, and human beings.
Think about everything that had to happen to create and make this planet work and it is just amazing.
No one knows the answer about God.
Just do whatever gives you peace and helps you be a better person. ❤️❤️
Oh, my, So much of the Bible and BoM are horrible lessons to live our life or make decisions by.....
Such as?
@@lisahumphries3898 Goodness; where to start.....Too many to mention here. Have you read the entire thing?
It’s not “too much to be a coincidence” it’s complex partials following natural processes. And if “no one knows the answer about God” then we’re all atheists.
Saffron - A person can learn life lessons even from negative events.
“And it came to pass that after he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands and fell; and after that he had struggled for breath, he died.” How does he struggle for breath with his head chopped off?
Because it’s all a load of shiz.
Literally some Monty Python flesh wound level nonsense
Love you two together.Thank you for this discussion.🌹
Hi Carah. Please can you turn on the subtitles in English? It helps me to understand everything you speak!😊
In August 2023 I read an obituary where it mentioned that the deceased had fostered three Lamanite children.
Got to love the flexibility and nuance around a monthly return to Mormon stories. That’s walking the walk.
You guys are great! Loved this!
Ironically I think it’s when learning about Heber J. Grant that we can see the way Mormonism operates. We see his abuse of power to implement the very dogmatic way he was raised to think. We consider his strong willed mother and his father who died when he was an infant. We see the nepotism and the imposition of HJGs personal dogma that he imposed on the Church. He was in power so long we should all know more about him; not just the whitewashed version we are spoon-fed
I'm an ex mormon from over by Toledo! Our ward would regularly take trips to the Kirtland temple over by Cleveland. So happy to be done with all that!
There is ONE absurdity yous guys missed; you need to talk about the three invisible living-forever-on-earth Nephites!
;-)
marcus
loved this! I think it is amazing the wall we put up mentally. We really did just overplay the miracle card in our justifications for how everything could have happened. I loved Utcorfs talk a few years ago where he compared belief to two airplane wings, faith, and logic. But under Mormonism, our airplane is just spinning in circles on the tarmac because there is no logical basis for how the historical events could have taken place.
also Talmage was an apostle, early 1900's. He wrote Jesus the Christ. In the footnotes, he said that land northward was north America, land southward south america. Interesting to me on how that view was held by members, during that time, changed later.
7:04- When you were referring to IRRATIONAL CONCLUSIONS about the roof noises... That's how I would describe CHRISTIANS as well.
I was one.
To be fair, Mormons *are* Christians.
I always love it when the answer from a TBM will be to follow the “Prophet” and the so-called “Law” of Chastity. Not a prophet and not a law. It’s like saying I have stipulated to these conditions and they are assuming I believe these concepts too. No I don’t and they never have a better idea. It all works when you suspend reality
Did the boat builder use Boat Building for Dummies as written by Noah?
It's Bill Reel! And more importantly:. Nuance Ho, My favorite "previous Mormon" attractive exmo
Thanks so much. Enlightening is an understatement
Moroni at Manti is not nearly as "bad" as a stack of rocks being pronounced Adam-ondi-Ahman and the whole Story about The Garden of Eden in Missouri...and Ground Zero for the return of Christ and the building of Zion.
When you are flying a plane, the dynamic is different. Depending on your visual, you can very easily lose track of direction as in up or down. Many planes have crashed from this phenomenon including JFK Junior's last flight. That is why knowing how to fly exclusively with your instructors is so important
💯mg 💨🌿 👂 two atheists spew truth about my favorite 🤩 cult. Amen 🙏
Is it strange how I also apply the "my intuition is better than theirs" to the corporate model writ large?
I hadn’t heard the “catalyst” theory before, but I thought of it myself within a different context yesterday. “What if Joseph Smith is a fraud, but God still managed to use him to create the BoM, which is true?” It’s similar mental gymnastics. However, in either case the structure collapses as you realize that neither the prophet nor the works produced hold up to any degree of scrutiny.
Re racial stuff- Bill's comments on group size and us/them is very good. There is a book called Prisoners of Geography, which explores how the places people are affected the history of those communities. One key comparison was areas of easy trade, navigable rivers, access etc lead to urban contexts. The very way we use the word civilised = developed rather than the more accurate 'of the city" ie urban, shows how those cultures consider themselves advanced and clever. Meanwhile groups of humans who don't create as big an impact on the land where they live got classed as' uncivilised '. Yet the prisoners of geography book noted that in large areas of Africa rivers have great waterfalls or other reasons why trade would stay more local and affect how societies developed. Of course there were long distance trading but it was harder. Because the Europeans considered themselves as advanced and then took over countries full of people who did not do things their way, the idea of native cultures as 'primative' also was a key aspect to racism. In the light of the impact of 'civilisation' on the wellbeing of the planet, I question which is the advanced and sustainable cultures.
Reminds me of the book "When Lucifer and Jezebel Join Your Church" by Dick Bernal
It is in the 40's this morning, Mothers Day. 92 is crazy hot!
That's wild! I have a cousin from Port Clinton and I'm watching from just an hour south of there. Fortunately, I was never Mormon so I'm just watching out of curiosity.
Awesome episode. Love Bill
thanks T
@@MormonDiscussion Hey Bill, have you ever done an episode on where Joey Baloney came up with all of his names and places in The Book of Mormon? For example, Alma is a city in Michigan. Lehigh is a city in Pennsylvania. I think he got Hill Cumorah from Captain Kidd comics. Anyway, I just thought that it'd be interesting if someone ever took the time to research some of that.
Born and indoctrinated into the church and when I asked at 5 years old why my first friend ever died of cancer my parents told me it was god’s plan…from then on I was terrified of god, his “plan” and the wrath I would incur if I went astray.
In relation to the Nephi ship, another analogy could be something along the lines that "SpaceX, Blue Origin, Virgin Galactic, etc. are making rockets that can go to space, so therefore I should be able to build a rocket to go to space"...
"Anything's possible for God ". Then why didn't God just teleport the Jaredites over?
Really loved this discussion 🌈
A very strange Mormon thing. The word "anciently" used as an adverb to describe something(s) that happened in distant past. I have never seen or heard "anciently" used by anyone else beside Mormons.
The Manti blessing was needed because they were invaded by rattle snakes.
How do those two facts connect? Lol
@@MormonDiscussion It is Satan of course
The snakes past and present from the temple paintings gathered in Manti and had to be removed. Come on Mormons get creative. It will increase faith. You can build a testimony on it!
Bill Reel should offer Personal Worthiness Interviews for a few. I miss the exquisite terror of such invasive inquisitions. I miss the guilt. Bill, please offer this tool of shame for exMo's. If successful to you could then offer to Patriarchal Blessings.
LMAO, one of the best comments on this page.
When the church sells off a chapel we could make an unbelievers "temple" out of it, fill it with ping pong tables and then hold unworthiness interviews to enter.
My great uncle and aunt lived in Port Clinton. I used to go out to visit and fish. Then go to his house for fish fries. Best fish I ever ate. I live just east in Bay Village
Your description of what it's like to leave Mormonism and realize how much more wisdom and thought there is out there that you could've been consuming this entire time is what leaving the right was like for me. The most intellectual thing I consumed as a on the right was probably like Armoured Skeptic videos lmao.
Then, when I started frequenting more left-leaning internet spaces, I realized how much more the left values learning and reason. It's not enough to just watch TH-cam videos. If you really want to keep up, you also have to consume film and literature from all different eras, learn the basics of every subject you can, learn how to read science writing and comprehend/think critically about it, and so much more. I've been on the left for a while, but have only recently discovered these spaces and honestly, it's thrilling. I feel like I will never run out of books to read or skills to learn.
On the off chance you haven't yet found them, I recommend Radical Reviewer!
Tbe boat is like the story of Noah! And worldwide animals in one location. Ha ha
I didn’t know you were from Ohio! Here’s to the Ohio Exmos-the OHexmos :)
yay! OH-IO
Many thanks Cara! I always to watch Bill Reel stories and gratitude!
Well Moroni was an Angel so therefore he had magical super natural powers.
1:10:26 The difference between the catalyst theory and Joseph making it up is that the LDS god actually exists in the first scenario but he doesn't exist in the later. The problem is that, since you can't tell the difference, you can't have actual _knowledge_ that it is in fact an authentic book of scripture.
edit: And to pray about it to know if it is scripture is to simply presume the LDS god exists. So you could never justify a claim to knowledge of it's authenticity except through pain of circularity.
they definitely smashed at the Thrive Party!
Presupposition is the keystone of faith’s foundation.
I mean, if Noah could do what the Bible claims he did-or any of the crazy ass things claimed in the Bible…”because God…”
Bill I would enjoy a rational discussion around the concept of space travel with you.
Non Mormon here! I'm just curious if apologists try to say that the transatlantic sailing was a miracle similar to Noah with the ark?
The male misogynistic, narcissistic, repulsive, psychotic personality traits were just too great for me to ever accept.
I passified my surroundings until I could leave.
"Nuance is the new n word"
Mark Normand.
I heard Carah say bikini pics and immediately forgot everything else that was said in this video...
What is the John Larson video you referred to? I don't see a link
But did Noah not build a boat and put all living creatures on it and all the food they animals would need. He was not a trained boat builder?
yeaaaah that didn’t happen either...
Please reference “nonstampcollector” on his Noah’s Ark 2 part series. th-cam.com/video/j_BzWUuZN5w/w-d-xo.html
Alas, one book of magic fairy tales is very much like another.
The Bible does not say that Noah built a boat and put all living creatures in it.
Love Bill!
thank you!
And Carah rocks! One of my favorite hoes!
New Testament Jesus is not all Love and Rainbows. He approves of poor people spending money they don't have on oil for his feet, because "The poor will always be with you, but I am here for a short time." Matthew 26:11. He also praises the poor widow for giving money she can't afford to the running of the temple. Justification for sure for tithing no matter how poor you are. He promises to come back and kill most people and save only a few--like a "thief in the night", and that those saved are few and those destroyed many. I could go on. You have to disregard so much of what Jesus said and did, to create a loving, inclusive version.
Interesting points.
Good questioning. Take things a bit less figuratively. The expensive oil was in honor of her understanding. Even women back then we're important figures
The widow was wiser. As we age we build up more time of sacrificing. It never was about tithing. Etc. Etc. Jesus taught in parables.
I ment to say less actually and more figuratively.
@@pennydavis9494 Parables are all about being figurative rather than literal....
Wish there were chapters
Mormon apologists would say (and HAVE SAID) to all those impossibilities..."god works in mysterious ways"...
Non
Non-fiction gall here too! Yes for no-if!
As someone from outside the LDS Church, both Mormon deconstructionists and apologists confound me. The Book of Mormon is unworthy of consideration as anything but a science-fiction epic. Why would anyone need to talk themselves out of it? P.S.- Arrakis isn't real, either...
I thought Moroni was an angel and could just appear places anywhere any time.
I'm a non-mo, but wasn't Moroni an angel. So why did he have to travel like a human.
New temple coming to Modesto, Ca near where I live...I am shocked. We are only about 90 miles from Oakland...why is one needed in Modesto???
He was a man (prophet in the book of Mormon), turned into an angel when he died, after he buried the golden plates
allowances = mental gymnastics
Plus Mulekites! Just built their own boat as well
As an x jw I do believe in flat earth or am I replacing one for another
Lmao ALL of Mormonism is absurd af
I became a atheist when I realized all religions are based on illogical "faith"
27:35 My thoughts exactly. If I die and find out that God is real, that bastard is going to have to answer to me. He better dissolve me to native element or I will spend my eternity... let's put it this way, God F'ed up giving me free will. I will use it.
In my opinion, one of the most anti intellectual principle ever to come out of religion is the treatment of faith as a virtue. You can bet that the holy grail precursor scam for every conman in the world is to convince all their skeptics and critics of that one idea. If you can do that you've won half the battle.
People want to believe in weird stuff, face it.
Can someone give me the title or link of the Bill episode that Carah referenced about dogma?
It's in the description now. 👍🏻
Love you guys!
Sin = death
Jesus= life
I'm Joyfull you guys got out of that cult, the biblical Jesus is alive and well! I'm born again Christian and I love talking to Mormon missionaries but they just shut down when faced with Joseph Smith's actual life!
Anyway, being a member of any church doesn't save you, going to church doesn't save you, belief on Jesus of the Bible saves!
Religion is man seeking God
Jesus is God seeking man!
Your religion is also false. And very culty.
I'd be careful about that high horse of yours.
What about kon tiki?
Cut to the chase
Shiz was obviously the shiznit . .
57min....spot on...
Insipid Mormon poop
Are there people who have a religion in spite of knowing it's man made and fake? Maybe they enjoy the community? I just find it crazy to argue that certain facts aren't true, is not the whole thing made up anyway?
To the vast majority of Mormons the whole point is that it’s actually real/true/historical. I am only 27 but I grew up believing evolution was false, young earth, Joseph smith had gold plates, etc
@@bob15479 That's very interesting to hear. Seems so strange to think people actually believe all this is real.
Then again I was basically raised without religion. My mom stopped going to our congregational church when I was in third grade, I'm just a few years older than you, and my dad has never had a religion in his life. I don't even think then scripture was viewed as divine or true even then.
Surely it isn't now for mainstream protestants. It's viewed as a historical document and a product of its time, and not really something meant to take at face value.
@@OnusofStrife I am constantly astounded that sooo many protestants of all types believe Moses was real, Noah was real, Jesus was real. It’s ludicrous.
@@beastshawnee No doubt a fair amount actually believe! We would all be better off to view it as myths!
@@OnusofStrife Growing up Mormon, it was always fascinating for me to see how they have no problem mocking people of other religions, but then they call it blasphemy to even consider the fact that their own ideology and rituals might be just as ludicrous. It's as hypocritical as it gets, and yet they flat-out refuse to see it that way. When you have this you're-either-with-us-or-against-us good-side/bad-side mentality, it's impossible to get through to them... "No, I KNOW without a doubt that The Church is true. God has manifested it to me over and over through The Spirit, and you can never take that away from me, so don't even try!"
Marriage is a partnership
People still do live in tribes, Indigenous people exist all over the world. How you talked about tribal religions and Indigenous collectivism like they're a part of the past and we've evolved past starting at like 9:45 seems a little racist? I'm sure that's not what you meant but I thought I should say something.
I will say gravity can also take your head down to the ground-Lol- but the pressure in your head KNOWS the difference! haha. But the absurdities in the BOM and the BIBLE are soo far out there. I never believed them as a kid and can still Not understand how anyone can. But people believe all kinds of things and I went out of my way to make up a god to show my daughter confirmation bias. (I raised her without any belief in those magical things). But I said to her even though supposedly the Christian God just watched while kids were abused and did nothing to help -I had always really had good luck finding parking. Maybe gods control parking! The way I actually find parking as I drive around and drive around and drive around and then find parking. The reality is I don’t have good luck finding parking the first time so I keep trying. So I made up A group of Gods we called the parking God’s. and we had pretend prayers that we would find good spaces and of course we did-even if we had to circle for 20 minutes! But then I started applying it to other things like once we went to the theater and it was very crowded and my hip was hurting and I said I’m going to pray to the parking gods that the seat next to me stays empty so I can keep stretching my leg out that way. And funny enough every single seat in the theater was taken except for two and then a person came in and sat in that other one so that the seat next to me was the only seat out of hundreds that stayed empty. Proof! Total proof of the parking gods existence. L O L You would think it was a one in 230 odd chance probably. But also it was really way less than that because the theater was almost full already when I verbalized the desire to have the seat open. So the odds were more like one in 25. I have expanded it to “dear parking gods I would like you to park that money into my account very quickly”. And then the check arrived in the mail.! Proof! At this point we’ve had so many good things that came after we jokingly asked the parking gods that we are almost convinced ourselves. Except we know we made them up. And we refuse to believe absurdities like that.
This is gold!
"Anything is possible with God" is called by philosophers a thought termination cliche.
It is a statement in which you give yourself permission to longer exercise critical thinking skills.
Read his Jesus the Christ Articles of faith, and the lore around them , and being a "Prophet" means littlle