Buying an Okuma MB-4000H Horizontal CNC Machine!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 มิ.ย. 2024
- Buying CNC machines isn't always easy. Let's discuss why we bought an Okuma MB-4000H (a horizontal machining center) with 6 pallet, pallet pool. The tool matrix is enormous and we've already made headway on fixturing the tombstones. This video will hopefully give some insight to those making CNC machine purchases.
00:00 Intro: Why We Need This Machine NOW!
01:07 Okuma MB-4000H Pallet Base Diameter, XYZ Travel, and Rigidity
03:12 Access to Bottom of Tombstone
03:40 Deciding Between Okuma MB-5000H and Okuma MB-4000H
04:33 Pallet Pool: High Volume VS. Switching Products Quickly
05:56 Machine Tool Brand Variability
07:23 Bells and Whistles Mistake
08:02 Tool Matrix FTW
08:38 Collision Avoidance Software & Ignite Digi
09:22 Probing, Chip Conveyor, and Through-Spindle Coolant System
10:21 Tombstones & Fixturing
12:19 Productivity Gains
13:00 Using 3D Printed Shop Layout to Decide Location & Fusion 360 Model
14:22 Business Impact, Inventory, and Scaling Up
17:08 The Vision for Saunders Machine Works
5 Reasons to Use a Fixture Plate on Your CNC Machine: bit.ly/3sNA4uH
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Links for this video
Chris from Ignite Digi @madebychrisf
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Reach us / CNC Info:
Speeds & Feeds: provencut.com
Fusion 360 (Purchase, Support, Training): dsi.fyi/3yu7Mt0
Online Fusion 360 Training: bit.ly/LearnFusion360
SMW Products: saundersmachineworks.com/
CNC Resources: www.nyccnc.com - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Admit it, you've been watching those horizontal mill videos with the 1 ton solid block of titanium, haven't you?
John, After owning a Hitachi Seiki pallet pool with two 500mm horizontals with 120 matrix tool magazines on each machine and 24 pallets. Your reasoning is exactly correct in this video. In fact I will even go further than what you said. This is what I found. You should think in terms of running the fewest number of parts necessary. Its better to have a variety of product and ship every day. What in a typical machine shop ties up things. It is when you have a job setup on a machine. It takes a lot of time and effort to set it up so you run a higher quantity of parts. But you cant do anything else on that machine until that's done. On you horizontal you need to think how to setup and leave the setup there. So all you have to do is schedule that in the queue. But run some every day. This is what we did, pick the best running job for night (un-attended) jobs. Schedule them for the night. On thing you may not have considered and what we found. Is during the day we spent a lot of time dealing with tooling. What I mean is indexing inserts replacing tools. We even had a person that did nothing else but index inserts change tools and change parts in fixtures. One criticism I will make. Is even with 120 tools on each machine (240 total) this was barley enough. What did you say. Your machine will only have 60 tools? I think that is going to be a limiting factor. Especially if you plan to use tool life management and tool breakage detection. Also we did this with tool breakage and tool life. If for some reason the machines could not complete a setup (Tool time or failure) the pallet pool would shuttle out that pallet and bring in another to run. This was especially necessary at night so we would not loose machining time.
I totally agree here, even with the ~200 tools and relatively high-volume stuff i do on my private machine, i'm still hard pressed for tool space if i'm doing 6-10 parts per product
That is admittedly with enough redundancy to only need to put in new material for a few weeks at a time but that's the point of automation, doing as little as possible.
We have an fms system and 4 horizontal Mori Seiki NH 5000's with 200+tools each running with two load stations with 60 pallets in the pool. There are two
Attendants that load and deburr parts and gage them, that's all they do 3 shifts. I don't see how you're running unattended unless
your cycle time is extremely long. Especially with just a few pallets.
@@Mike-lt6sj for me, it's small tools in complex finish passes. I can't fit anything faster than a 0.5/25 mm in some parts and even at max rpm, that can still take a few minutes per part.
At 60 pallets with 6-10 parts per pallets just one finish op for the whole APC could end up taking a day.
Thanks! As always, appreciate your guidance. FYI she's a 218 tool matrix.
@@nyccnc OK I must have misunderstood. That should work for six pallets.
Man I have been growing with you since your started your channel, its awesome to see how you have grown as a business. I started on a router machine in my college dorm room and I seriously got to run my first Haas right when you got yours. I also sent you an email along time ago! Congrats on your new machine! keep up the good work.
yeah it’s been cool to watch the progression. Really puts some of the shop tours into perspective because some of those big companies started similarly (-8
I am so happy you guys found a niche and are now rocking it!
Wow! What a great introduction of our product and a glimpse into the thought process that goes into a purchase like this. Congratulations on the new machine. I was worried when you were talking about the tool matrix, but was glad to see that's where you settled. Sometimes more really IS more! It's customers like you that make us better. Looking forward to seeing some of the parts that come off this machine.
Welcome to the Okuma family
Great to hear your machine shop journey. I am where I am today because of your early beginnings and then the training you provided. I'm on my second Tormach and looking to buy a Haas in the next year or two so maybe I'll take another course if you get back to that kind of thing. I look forward to the future of building my shop and I am always thankful for content like yours! I feel like we are all part of this growth journey you go thru.
Very good presentation of your analysis and strategy. And your positivity and energy is infectious.
John, I love your videos; very educational! I hope you enjoy your new Okuma machine!
I worked for a company that swore by Toyoda horizontals, even had an 800. It was incredible how much work they could process. Congratulations, will be fun to watch!
Toyoda also makes one of the best CNC cylindrical grinders on the market.
Congrats on the new machine. Keep the videos coming.
Nice one John. Good to see your business growing.
Hi John, I haven't watched your videos for about 6 months. It is great to see the progress you are making. BUT looking at your eyes i think you need to GET SOME SLEEP. I have overdone it myself, so i know what is coming to bite you later on if you don't slow down a little. Be safe and take care of yourself. All the best
My experiences with Okuma:
CAS have been amazing. When i first started out the company had just gotten into CNC only been doing it 2 years when i came. The operator crashed the machine on a somewhat regular basis.
He wasn't so quick to learn new things. Eventually i got to use the machine and i read in the manuals on my spare time. I turned on CAS, It was really painfull to get new models of tools into the machine (I believe they have updated this and it should be easier).
But CAS ended up being a massive investment saving the machine for many collisions when complicated setups with tight clearances was used.
Load monitoring have also been a bliss. I used to to log how much load the tool uses in different cuts. If the load is higher than usually i made the machine alert a message saying inspect the tool *High load*
And even better if the load was to low then that would indicate the part might have moved slightly.
I also wrote a gcode to fetch date and time so it could been automatically engraved.
But customer support have been poor. I live in Norway so we got different people who handle the customer service. If there was something basic like a interlock holding up they wouldn't be able to answered how to fix it or how to work around it. I had to do a tool change without every axis in its home and needed the codes m867m66txxxxxx. The manual had misprinted the text for those codes, so it was unreadable.
Else the machine itself have been insanely strong. Before we started to do load monitoring the insert broke and the machine just kept going melting everything. It didn't become misaligned which was amazing.
And repair parts are astronomical expensive. Like a rubber wiper for the glass cost 5000 usd (which is a wear part).
TL:DR Machine is strong. They are expensive. Bad customer service. But the machine is a work horse.
Also like the say the accuracy and rigidness is really good
Quote:Machine is strong. They are expensive. Bad customer service. But the machine is a work horse. I can't agree you more.
I agree. We have some Okumas in our shop that were treated poorly for 25 years and they still make good parts. Their service does leave something to be desired and get your wallet out when you need spare parts. Especially once servo amplifiers get to be 10+years old. Were talking about $15,000.00 and up for a spindle drive and sometimes $7,000.00 for an axis amplifier.
It's absurd the fact that you will need Okuma for EVERYTHING in terms of maintenance and repairs. You can't even move your machine from one place to another without needing them. From a maintenance guy perspective, worst machine ever.
Congratulations on the purchase. Moving to a horizontal is a big step, and there is definitely a lot to learn in the process. The MB-4000 is a very familiar platform to us, we’ve got a total of 12 of them now including six with 6APCs and four on a Fastems FPC. There is a whole lot to like about them and a few things to watch out for.
I've got this machine too, and yes the fixture tracking is definitely needed. It makes it work like a 5 axis with one less axis.
John, I run a couple Matsuura horizontals with 11-pallet pools. I make my own tombstone towers out of G2 Durabar bolted to the pallet base. Crazy good dampening material.
If you are ever in NW Florida, come do a shop tour!
Your videos have been super useful and inspiring, thanks!
thanks Jake!
Hi John I'm Clay in Dallas love your videos I really like the one when you were at the Starrett facility that was so cool just watched it again last night . I want to smell that room that was empty pretty sure I know what it was like but I want to go there just to be sure. I've learned a bunch from you keep it up we need more teachers like you. Clay
John, we were where you are a year ago. We also decided on the Okuma MB4000-H 6 pallet 146 tool with 20,000 rpm HSK. Originally thought going 15,000 and doing aluminum and sst, but decided to make it an aluminum machine because chip separation is to time consuming. Due to delays we had to put off our goal of fixturing every pallet and holding 30-50 parts that may be 5-10 different parts per pallet. The goal is to get 15-17 hours of unmanned un interrupted running. That way the machine is running when we come in in the morning. It is warmed up and we can run the short run parts during the day utilizing Zero point quick change fixtures and long run parts at night.
John we have 2 DMG MORI NHX4000’s. They only have the standard 2 pallet option and a 60 tool magazine. I set them up as identical machines so we can run any job on any machine with very minimal offset change. Basically you might have to change the offset a couple thou maybe. All 60 tools are set as common tooling. So when I program I program with those tools only. Sometimes I have to get creative on programming but for the most part it works really well. Set up times from job to job is less than 10 minutes. I appreciate your videos and I’ve just discovered your pod cast and have been enjoying that. That’s again for all the good info
I've had this exact machine, pallets, and options for a while. Very easy to leave pallets loaded and pull inventory through them. Being able to setup or part change and tool load while the spindle is still running is a huge gain. Keeping setups, not rushing fixture changes, and multiple setups all at once is so good. For me it's like having 36 tables in a vertical. I've taken stuff out of 3+2 workflow with it. I mostly run aluminum in short runs but I already have 80/145 pots in use. Almost never build new tools now which is great for prototyping too, just have to worry about wear. You will be tripping over sequencing with the two sub modules so be ready, a G04 dummy program has been the easiest way to rotate pallets through. You've done a lot since I said not to get that rebuilt Fadal for its controller.
Thank you for all you do your videos are awesome.
Hello its the first time i run across your channel i am a service tech and have rebuilt mb 4000 spindles in the past.
What i suggest keeping an eye on is make sure you have chip management around the tool setter the sensors for the cylinder tend to die because of chip accumulation.
Make sure your atc door does not bang ( i have seen a atc door bracket get sheared from continuous wear) you can stiffen the door bumpers with an allen key.
Make sure to clean your coolant system every year to avoid spindle damage and also keep your spindle through coolant pin in good shape has this will save you tens of thousands and hours of work for spindle replacement.
Good luck.
I love watching how you've grown your business, who'd have thought it when you first ran the taig?...lol
I love your videos they are great. Funny thing I just noticed, the trophy part left in the background. The higheel was a really cool part a few years back @ IMTS at the Hermle booth. Well done programmed with hypermill. Still blows my mind and as a former mastercam user I can´t see myself programming parts like this. I would love to get my hands on hypermill and try something like this. Anyway keep up the good videos we want to see more ;)
Great video John addition machine in the arsenal
Great machine
I like the horizontal machines.
Nice investment.
I startet my self with hobby cnc milling. I retrofiting a mikron wf21 c swiss mil . Always nice to see your video's. Great work
We have 2 of them, same spec. cant stress enough: check your floor. a horizontal sits on 3 pads, and most shops don't have an adequate floor to hold a 24,000 lb machine moving at the speeds they are capable of. we put 2x2x4 ft. deep pads under our machine and they haven't required releveling over 6 years. our new 10 pallet machine actually recommends a full 24" slab under the machine and tool magazine. with 6 pallets you absolutely want the matrix, one thing instilled on us by gosiger was coming up with a good tool numbering system, since you have so many tool numbers available in the okuma's. two odd options if you can get them: extended way lube tank, and extra gage length(you always end up wishing you had a longer drill)
this machine is going to change your life! Make sure you program all your pallets to centerline of rotation it makes crash recovery much easier!
our shop mainly use Okuma, had my fingers on 3 different mills. we had an old mill from 83 it was dead accurate and wonderful, still miss it. have the latest Genos m660-v-a and a MB 60 atm. yes i am a fanboy of Okuma machines and the controll system. :D
Awesome looking machine. Thanks for the update. What does something like this system cost, delivered and installed, before tooling?
I've worked on MB4000/MB5000-H's for the past few years. With and without a flexible machining system attached to them. Great machines. Fast and highly repeatable. Some things to keep in the back of your mind: the big tempered glass sheet on the door is very expensive to replace if an insert grenades in it's direction, crashing the tool fetcher in the matrix becomes an alignment nightmare, watch for chip pile ups on the way covers as one swift rapid can crunch your covers in a heartbeat, and lastly consider extra filtration methods for your coolant tank/high pressure pump if you don't want to drag that big sucker out from underneath the machine for cleaning too often or enjoy buying expensive pump filters. Also a case-by-case scenario, but I find they have a quite the thirst for coolant between all the usage options at your fingertips (shower, through and flood coolant). I fill their tanks up more than any other machine in the shop. Anyways, enjoy the new purchase! Exciting!
Love the Okuma controllers, buddy had a bit of a goof with the constant feed jog (select axis and direction and the machine will move until travel limit or stopped manually) turns out the spindle head will run itself through that tool length detection probe when it's tucked inside the housing without a second thought if you're not careful.
Welcome to the OKUMA family!👋 The benefit of CAS is not the compatibility to fusion. When your tools in your machine do not fit the size and shape, they have in your CAM, you have no garanty of avoiding a crash. CAS does a digital twin of any of your tools, fixtures or workpieces, what you are running in that very moment, using the toolsetup data of the machine, not of the CAM. So it is way more safe and reliable, even if you jog your axis by hand!
When you start your setup run, the first step is to simulate your program life in the machine. When CAS detects no collision, you don‘t need to run in single mode, you just only reduce the rapid a bit by hand an let it run in automatic!💪
So have fun with your machine, I am exited to see, what you will bring up with it in the future!!😍
I'm envious. Not of your machine - you earned that. I"m envious of your country. The fact that you've got a market to sell nicely designed, nicely made products into just reminds me how far this place has fallen since 1994.
Congrats, and keep growing.
Okuma!!!! Our shop has nothing but. Work horses 🐎 💜
Wow John that’s awesome.
interesting lesson! Greetings from Poland
Go ahead and make a standard pattern for your fixture plates that you will be mounting to your tombstones. Perhaps a series of 1/2-13 threaded holes and a couple of dowel pin holes for locating your plates. Then whenever you get a new tombstone just run your program that faces all sides, drills and taps your holes, and bore or ream your dowel pin holes. That way whenever you want to add a new part all you need to do is make that sacrificial plate you mentioned that has that same hole pattern and mount whatever hardware you want to it.
May I ask where you got the CAD model of the MB4000 and the APC? I'm trying to make the same decision on a horizontal machine and that model looks totally complete....... Thank you for all the info and education you have provided over the years! It's been a big help!
Now I work in metric size but I want to make a hole pattern 50mm 50mm with M14 thread where There is a 16MM H6 in set hardened fitting ring to guide fixture plates in the tombstone
In my experience it's the most cheap and reliable way to make a flexibal an reliable system
good luck and I hope you get a good experience with a horizontal Mill an Tombstone system
Awesome...love it!
Great machine, stopping because of a loose door is not. The mid-auto to adjust on the fly and being able to move the positions to check the parts and then restarting the sequence without restarting from the beginning of the tool is awesome.
1nd
Can't go wrong with okuma, top tier machines
Thank you for sharing..
Mmm NYC CNC makes it to the big times! So excited to see this next phase with legit horizontal now! Really cool to see the perspective of someone with Tormach on up to big machines like this all at the same time (-8
I'm currently at work running a mb-4000h and a mb5000h. Solid machines but very finicky wiring. Both are currently waiting for techs to come and fix some new and ongoing issues.
Wow
Congratulations
So nice machine
Funny thing I was thinking about that apartment TAIG when I started watching this.
I hope you are well, you look like you have a cold or need a few more hours sleep. Don’t burn yourself out, no one says “I wish I worked more” on their deathbed.
Where is a current shop tour! How has it changed since the open house and the first haas vm3 showed up. What has shown up, what has left and why and is it working for you to plan?
I need one of these for my garage.
I'm machining my garage out of a solid block of Titanium.
John, now that you have the Okuma, its time to do a video where you setup and drill through a hair.
So awesome to see this advancement in the SMW saga. Funny to see how much this concept is embraced now when the big players came out with the machines for this in the early 90s they were a huge flop.
John have made the hard decisions but looking at your eyes. Work stress is showing. You are young. Your machines can't fix you heart. Vacation time without your cellphone. Your got great staff.
We want you to live long enough to turn into a old gray fart like the rest of us.
John! Why not a GROB horizontal? What are the pro/con?
I am wondering how much would of these setups cost you? If you are willing to share. Thanks!
How do you like Okuma?? I run a brand new Genos M560. Absolutely love it. No complaints at all from me
Still going strong for you?
Really good machines.... big $$$$$$ for parts and big $$$$$$$ for service.
Looking forward to seeing how you get on with this.
I’ve emailed your company about this before and got told you have no plans to…
Please can you start making mod vices in metric size with metric threads please.
Metric doesn’t like to exist for some reason in the USA.
Here in Canada it’s 60/40 imperial/metric and a pain in the ass to deal with.
@@Sicktrickintuner but there’s clearly a demand for mod vice’s beyond the US, and beyond the US everyone uses metric.
the horizontal is part of that plan!
@@nyccnc great to hear 👍
Do you buy them or lease them? Seems leasing is the way to go.
At last! I’ve been making a running bet as to when you’d drink the horizontal koolaid! I think you’ll be astounded as to how productive they are, congratulations!
felt like it was inevitable once they got the first haas lol just a matter of time at that point lol
We have a Okuma MB4000H at the factory where i work
I said ages ago yous need horizontal. Eventually bigger place too. If i bought a machine I would spec it as "everything" because everything is everything. Buying some couple k option that you don't use is better than losing money like pouring it in the well because yous skimped on couple k is much better idea to me. Short lead time with proper tools is what you want, not short lead with stupid big inventory and bad tools.
WHATS THE VACUM CONTRAPTION AT 12.10?
So much for supporting US made machines .
What other us manufacturers are there for horizontals? Haas of course. I know Grob has us made horizontals, but I think they are all 5th axis.
HAAS has good marketing and with people like Mark Terryberry who can show you how to get the most out of it. What they lack is the rigidity and sheer mass that you need to have when cutting anything beyond aluminum. For some they will never out grow the limits that entry level machines like Haas have so they will never run into the lower performance ceiling that comes with them.
Our VF-3 will rip through aluminum all day long with volume-mill on gibbcam, the limit I impose more so driven by how well I can secure the part in the vise. Put some 304 SS or even A36 MS in there and it becomes a total dog. Spindle loads are reasonable, the entire machine is buzzing/vibrating and sounds terrible. Notice on most of the HAAS demo videos they are cutting not steel or stainless but almost always aluminum..
#globaleconomy
@@135SoHc right. I'd be hesitant to get anything beyond a verticle or job shop from Haas. Not to dis Haas, they have their place, but fifth or horizontal production machines, I'd want something more rigid and expandable.
@@mattn5011 DMG Mori makes the NHX series in Davis, CA.
Fixture Offset Function
Most important thing to remember with a Horizontal is remember is to table that moves in the z not the head
Except when it's not :))
its probably a good machine, it depends on the work, vertical vs horizontal
The inserts looks like they could be run on a swiss lathe.
Awesome video but I'm a bit confused about your decision for the 400mm machine. Because when you have to consider so many things between 400 and 500 mm and your decision is kinda "on the edge" don't you think that the limitations of the smaller machine will soon show in your work process? Yes, the bigger machine is more expensive but when the limits of the smaller machine already pop up in your plannings at every corner I would have seriously considered investing a bit more money.
What would have been the roundabout price difference between the two machines?
The MB-5000II is a much more expensive machine, nearly double the price. It’s also much newer and attempts to fix a number of the issues with the 400mm machine.
@@matterrend2802 Thx, didn't know that the price difference is so huge. Certainly doesn't look like it from the spec sheets.
You look exhausted. Remember to take care of yourself as well as your business!
Honeymoon with Haas over? ;-)
Steel Weldments are a cheap way to build tombstones.
GROB ???
Means coffin in russian
This is great info!
I just wish you showed more machine video while you're talking, rather than just talking head -- much as you're beautiful, steel is beautifuler :-)
Procrastination always costs more money in the long run.
به شادی استفاده کنی
Very fast machine.
Why a okuma? Most of your machines are haas
Monogomish?
@@nyccnc just wondering if there was a particular reason you got a okuma. Figured having a known user interface and likely usable gcode allready would have lessend the learning curve.
Perhaps he's at that point where he feels comfortable spending the big bucks for an excellent machine .
fyi: my boss bought a haas ec1600 horizontal NEW!, he also has a huller hille nbh 290 amongst others . The difference is night and day , absolutely fuckall rigidity , skinny chip management , weak coolant system , very weak sheet metal , sensible tool change arm. Now... that NBH is 21 years old , has lots of problems , but the stability power and torque is unparalelled , even without a good foundation . That 50 taper haas (ec1600) can't hold a candle to the capabilities of the geared german monster .
Dude can buy a horizontal machine but can’t put a contact number on his website for customers to contact with order issues 🤦♂️
I was curious about your comment so did a google search. The number is at the bottom of the Saunders machine works home page under their support email. Also the google search came up with the number as well.
@@WilliamPayneNZ thanks, I guess I was expecting a contact us page. I looked at the bottom of the page but didn’t scroll far enough.
Decisions, decisions, it’s pretty much like picking between a 400 pound woman and a 500 pound woman
This tool magazine is shit !!