*Me trying to explain why I only had 4 hours of sleep last night but* *Absolutely noone at work knowing what the hell a Rob N4 tier list is and why it's so damn important*
Me at work trying to explain why I only had 4 hours sleep last night and absolutely noone at work knowing I had had to stay up to record a tier list, it was important!
Hello from Spain, I really really had a good time hearing you guys. It´s amazed me how you rate Panoceania (Vainilla and Sectorials). It is where I have my big discrepancy with you, but what most amazes me is not if we agree or not, but how different arguments and experiences could be. It is obvious yours are quite different to mine and my surroundings. And that was the most interesting thing of all. Best regards!
Having very recently started Combined, it feels like playing without Guided against most factions besides Phalanx is totally viable. The variety of tools you can bring and how different your 2 lists can be are really surprising, supported by that strong bottom line of order generators. Also definitely agree on the Caliban - Protheion can lead to him quickly spiraling out of control while still completing objectives. Sphinx is also an incredible unit that I feel can get more into the spotlight now that the Avatar isn't the end-all be-all, especially in zone control objectives or Res Ops.
Thanks for the video, interesting content as always! I really enjoy these longform discussions. However, it would have been great if you had given some context in the beginning. Is this a Tier List for Aussie meta or does it intend to be universal? Do you rate how strong a faction is in the hands of an average player or how much potential the faction has in the hands of a good player, etc.? Coming from Northern European meta and having played a lot in IGL, I found many of the takes somewhat baffling and weird. But I don't know if it's just a meta thing.
Don't think too hard about it. The goal of the video is to be a discussion of all of Infinity all in one video first and foremost. Accordingly, what we're talking about are our personal thoughts which will be informed by our personal experiences (although all the hosts have relatively strong connections with various communities outside the Australian eastern seaboard, e.g. the IGL etc).
I think I agree with most of this. Particularly about ISS. However, I think it’s too early to tell about Torchlight Brigade. A lot seems great on paper but we really don’t know enough in practice.
I think it is time for a Tohaa video. they have been out of production for so long and away from being a common army that they need a spotlight. Even with a video, I think it will be really hard to people to still outsmart a good Tohaa player.
Awesome work guys; these are super fun to listen to. Thanks so much! While I only trivially disagree about the Shas location I think a major thing to consider for their evaluation in the current meta is the mission set. The significant increase to % missions with exclusion zones in addition to more missions requiring durable specialists who cannot accomplish mission objectives while in marker state are noteworthy. I don’t think these are bad for the game at all but without some new tools Shas navigating a 3-5 mission lineup is becoming more challenging. Some missions still reward surgical or non-confrontational play (+ reduced amount of sensor being played this season) allows their redundancy of marker troopers to still be very strong. The mission lineup I think impacts the power of Shas significantly (maybe the most?).
Yes, Robert, we'd a breakdown of the tohaa, please. As a new tohaa player, I think they are good, but they lack the firepower to make them outstanding.
As someone who has picked up a load of Imperial Army to paint because they look badass, I'm hoping that N5 brings some love to the chonky squad. Thanks so much for putting 4 hours into this.
Looking to get back into Infinity after a long time, was looking at USAriadna as a starting point. Werewolves, bikes and a lot of shotguns trumps any meta performance to me. But this was still a very informative listen!
It's really unique to have one of these tier lists where I don't take issue with a single one (at least for those I have the knowledge to form an opinion)
You've mentioned having a crumple zone in your list in this video and several others but i don't really understand it. How would someone build a crumple zone into their list and what kind of units should they be looking for?
So if you imagine a crumple zone in a vehicle - it's the part of a vehicle that's designed to crush or crumple on impact, absorbing the impact and protecting the driver; crumple zones began to be incorporated into vehicles after we realised that trying to make a truly rigid frame protected the vehicle but killed the occupants in crashes. You can apply similar thinking in an infinity list. It's very, *very* difficult to build an infinity list that takes zero casualties against a dedicated enemy attack, but you can build a list that forces your opponent to engage certain units first, and if those units are acceptable casualties and enable you to still carry out your own plan/counter-attack/etc, you've built an effective crumple zone. A really good example are Haqqislam Daylami. Two or three of these guys can't be ignored (they have panzerfausts!) but discovering them is generally slow and inefficient. Once discovered they'll almost certainly die, but if your opponent only kills a couple daylami on their first turn, you're only down some expendable irregular troops. Theoretically though, anything can comprise a solid crumple zone for a list provided you're prepared to accept it as a casualty and use it to control what of yours dies and what lives. Other great examples are auxbots, libertos, helots, sometimes even total reaction bots (with an engineer behind, they can die - they'll be back). In a pinch you can even use the first one or two wounds on a TAG as part of your crumple zone.
beginner question: from your experience would you say it it is better to stay with one faction and become an expert with it or is it better to play several different factions to know the different factions better?
Stay with the initial faction for a little while while you learn the basics - once you're comfortable building lists and executing orders / turns / games, start branching out. But importantly, do things that are fun - most people learn much more quickly if they're engaged and enjoying themselves, so doing stuff that's enjoyable (whether that's exploring one faction deeply or branching out) is often also a great way to learn.
I'm a new player, have been playing Hassassins for a little bit and learning a ton from your videos! I'd like to branch out and try something different, and you rated Starmada & O-12 decently, Torchlight high as well as Vanilla Aleph very high. Could we get a faction focus for one of these?
@@R0bertShepherd Hahah, I guess I'm assuming that N5 won't change as much as many people seem to fear... but I could be very wrong of course. Of course, I don't want you to waste a ton of effort on a video if it won't be as evergreen either!
@@bravesamwise84 all good either way - it's the vanilla factions that will probably change most, but I'll slot it into the content list and see when it fits in. :)
Couldn't agree more with Lockie on the subject of list building for Military Orders. If you know your mission Military Orders can put some top tier options on the table. Problem is when someone is trying to build a list for several rounds event. With that said, I can't stop having mixed feelings about MO position on the tier list, because if you were to make the same exercise but for each mission on the ITS, Military Orders would rank a lot higher in my opinion.
I absolutely agree. But rob has been open that the context of this video is very much how the factions handle multiple round events. And MO is just frustrating to build for that even in lineups that favour their strengths
Max: I’ve been using him in Winterfor and the comments about driving him into DZ and making him a problem is absolutely viable. He’s such a useful profile.
So we didn't go into what makes each ranking as the video would be long enough already, but essentially an S-tier faction is one where the mechanical strength is strong enough to significantly outweigh player skill and carry even a weaker or unlucky player through a large event. The closest N4 has come to this would be Combined Army in the first year or two of the edition (and I unashamedly played them at this apex of strength at Novacore) but it hasn't really existed since in my opinion. A+ exists as a tier because I thought we would need somewhere to put armies that we couldn't agree whether they were A or S - but there actually wasn't any of those this year, so A+ basically means "A-tier factions that the hosts personally want to gush about because they really like them"
@@R0bertShepherdThanks for the explanation :) That makes (kinda) sense. I'm also happy to see there are no S-tier factions in the game, even though large portions of the internet won't agree with you :P
About the Sphinx: it's much worse at fighting than Dragoes or Szally, so it's not a hammer, but it's way too expensive to be a scalpel like a Fiday or Speculo. It's a chisel, for when you need to be more precise than a hammer but need a little more brutality than a scalpel. The question is "is it worth it," and I haven't played mine yet so I don't know. As a Haqq player, I'm very worried about an invisible TAG popping up in the middle of one of my links & bathing all my expensive 1W infantry in flame, while my shotgun shells & viral CCWs plink off its armour. Maybe that's just me playing Haqq wrong.
The Rindak is an incredible specialist. Incredible dodge. Extra burst medikit. 27 points. 6-2 move. Sensor. NWI shock immune. It can accomplish a ton of objectives. It’s fast enough to keep up with a Kaitok attack. It’s a good piece.
Jordan rates it highly for exactly those reasons. It's strictly a personal failing that I see it doesn't have the 'Morat' tag in a fireteam and still don't take it even in a haris where that tag barely matters. Also, it *is* a pricey piece of kit, but worthwhile especially in certain missions.
@@R0bertShepherd I used to run a Kaitok/Rindak Haris. Very self contained. Very fast. The Rindak having climbing plus and sensor to ferret out midfield camo. Then the Kaitoks obliterating it. Grabs objectives (assuming you can make the Wip 13). And its burly an enough to hold its own.
Heyo this has bothered me since this came out. I know it was at the end and 4 hours of talking infinity makes you impatient. But excluding player errors. Played to the highest potential, Ed potential. how would you truly rank spiral?
The answer changes based on opponent more than faction at that point. The thing about spiral in particular is that they subvert a lot of the usual mental models players build for when and how to engage into something (by combining tohaa defences with helots). In a recent little local event, a very good player from interstate had a game against Ed and didn't quite have the knowledge down for how to fight Spiral, took a couple of fights to 'bait out' helots that ended with helots causing catastrophic damage, and Ed took the event. But I wouldn't expect that player to make that same mistake over and over as they learned how to pressure spiral and learned to mentally build the three-turn-fight plan you need to engage them (rather than trying to knock them out on turn one, which is what they did). I think that means they have to go somewhere between B and C even played at their best, but your mileage really can vary. Their vulnerability at that point isn't exactly a player who's more skilled than the person piloting them, it's a player who's equally knowledgeable about the matchup as the person piloting them. Now, those players will be rare (sometimes very rare) but if we're objectively evaluating mechanical faction strength, we need to consider it.
@@R0bertShepherd fair. Thanks for the answer. I have been playing the army and i think my group secretly hates playing them. I have had it described as "chewing a tire". I play in a small scene in south east asia so I dont get tournaments. I only get to learn matchups and never the game as whole I guess
I wanna start playing Infinity and im thinking about what faction to play. Im thinking between Aleph, Tunguska, Nomads or Bakunin but really struggling to decide. Any tips?
So genuinely you will probably want to make that decision based on vibes and aesthetic. All of those are good and any of the nomad sectorials will also serve as an easy jumping point into vanilla if you like. For my money I'd say Tunguska would be the toughest start (they've received some very nice additions lately but they're still a *slightly* tougher army to play as they have to play for a first timer), and a bakunin list built around the heavy infantry and morlock warband troops will probably be the most forgiving. But ultimately all are good factions so you want to decide based on what models and aesthetic appeal to you the most.
If I'm being honest, there's a wonderful attraction in what I'd call a "challenge faction", where everyone *knows* they're just a little tougher to play, which means that making them work means you're a little tougher as a player yourself. And Druze have enough unique stuff going on that they're never totally out of the game if you just look for the edges.
I have my own thoughts on Hunzakuts and actually cover them along with a list and battle report in this video: th-cam.com/video/tVtMJtca8es/w-d-xo.html
im just starting out with infinity, how is haqq without irregulars and bikes? mainly picked haqq for the mini (shueja) i like sneaky theme. For ultimate sneaky and more objective focus (i hear having good hackers are a plus) is haqq the faction for me?
You can play haqq without bikers but I wouldn't play it without irregulars. If you want Haqq to play as a sneaky army with an objective focus, use Daylami and Libertos as your irregulars, as they can sit in the midfield and support your camo specialists and launch asymmetric attacks on exposed enemy positions. Otherwise, be sure to invest in a Hassassin Fiday - the ultimate sneak, they can infiltrate your opponent's deployment zone at the start of the game and pick of key elements like their specialists or lieutenants. Overall, the Haqqislam sneak / camo game is very solid and they're one of the better factions for it.
No, it wasn't an intentional decision - we had the space open but nothing ever slotted in there. We had a little discussion of-mic about it after the episode and the basic consensus was that in retrospect *maybe* 2021-22 combined army was the closest we've seen to an S-tier faction and nothing has come close enough to equal it since.
So this I think was actually us mis-speaking. I hadn't had a look at the list Jordan was referencing in question but in retrospect I think he was referring to the *Orphan* of the observance. Either of the engineering profiles are excellent to link with the Stigmaton but the upgraded one with E/M mines and a native (not deployable) repeater is a spicy pick.
If you're just starting, a good mix of capabilities and some strong defences will serve you well. I'd suggest: 1. Rodok core link with a Volkolak missile launcher 2. Chernobog 3. a varangian haris adding in the unknown ranger and a patcher That's most of a 300pt list but you can round it out nicely with a few cheaper units. Here's an example: gTIJa29zbW9mbG90ASCBLAIBAQAJAIXwAQQAAIXuAQEAAIXuAQoAAIXuAQQAAIXuAQcAAIXyAAEAAIMJAQMAAIW1AQEAAIYxAQEAAgEABgCG1QEBAACFtQEBAACGMAECAACA8AECAACGLQEBAACGNAEBAA%3D%3D
@@thealteredmind9475 so the good news is that the Bakunin action pack sets you up very well with just what comes in it, especially with a bit of creative proxying as they've biased SWC profiles very heavily and I think the box alone contains something like 6.5SWC if you play everything WYSIWYG including the Custodier as a hacking device plus. I think there's a lot of ways you can go with this pack but if you want to shift toward more tourney-centric bakunin, we'll do a bit of proxying with the existing pack (HMG moira > EM LGL moira, SIN Eater Sniper > Sin Eater MK12, Penitent > Stigmaton etc) and add some remotes and warbands. One box of remotes and one box of Die Morlock Gruppe plus the above proxies gets you this list which is frankly within shouting distance of a list that won an Australian satellite event early this year: gfcHYmFrdW5pbgEggSwCAQEACQCGQwEBAACGQwEEAACBjQECAACBjAEGAACBoAEFAACBmgEBAACBogEDAACBkwEBAACBkwEBAAIBAAUAhkUBAQAAhkEBAwAAgZwBAQAAgZMBAQAAgZMBAQA%3D There's a lot you could do in terms of additional purchases to get things that are cool into the list. I really like Agatha Wabara and Robin Hook and of course when you get around to it the actual non-proxied Stigmaton is an awesome model and well worth adding to the collection. Bakunin also expands really nicely into the Riot Grrls side of the faction, but that's more of a second wave kind of thing after you have your REMs and warbands. If you wanted to, you could consider the Aftermath characters pack instead of the Morlock Gruppe box. This changes the loadout a little but especially regular Zellenkreigers and Morlocks are pretty interchangeable from a proxy perspective provided you're clear with your opponent and Aftermath gives you a few other options to play with including the excellent Denma Connoly, Uhahu and an Extreme Zellenkreiger (all of whom are solid on their merits and also offer a wider set of proxy options).
Nope, we just misspoke. He dodges very well (on 16s) which makes him an ok if somewhat high-value model to take up mine clearing duty (which he dodges on 13s).
Gonna be me and be super contrarian: Counter-argument about the Dog-Warriors being the worst and slowest dog man and secretely being the best : They're 3W TI, the worse profile lets you move-move against markers, mines, aro etc. and just facetank it instead of needing to set it up with a dodge or a smoke. Also lets you easy smoke behind you. Over 3 dogs, that's 3 extra TI wounds. For free. Starco can't be bad, they have Raoul. Having played Forco, I gotta admit the really funny thing is how cheap and supported they get their purecore ORCs. Purecore Orcs with eclipse, wip14 specialist, and CC... with fire support from a bolt sniper haris and two warcors. It's stupid oppressive.
On the topic of Dog Warriors in particular, and setting aside TAK where they have no competition, in vanilla ariadna they compete very directly with the Devil Dog team, which *also* brings three wounds and a wider suite of useful tools, far stronger CC thanks to how peripherals can be used, is 6-4 and throws PH16 smoke out the gate, and the Devil Dog itself is ARM4 rather than starting ARM1 (sometimes having to take multiple saves at that ARM) and going to ARM3. I don't dislike Dog Warriors on their own merits - they're very good! - but they're the worst of an extremely strong set of competitors.
That's true, but even with the addition of shock immunity and the rolling together of the visor and sixth sense profiles it just wasn't a meaningful one in terms of playability. I guess the unfortunate truth is that for as long as 360 visor costs like ten points they're just not going to be worthwhile.
Ehhh... I'm an MO player, and I think it's fair? MO have a lot of genuinely great units - Tikbalang, Teutons, Trinitarians, Knights of Montesa, etc. - but it struggles to all come together to form a coherent picture. Joan and De Fersen are both cool but expensive and don't solve your LT problem. You struggle with light infantry - Crosiers lack profile options, Order Sergeants are too expensive, and whatever hybrid core link you hack together is just going to be clumsy compared to anyone else's. You struggle for orders, since you don't have good cheap or even middle-band units. MO has great pieces. Lots of those pieces are fun and cool and that's why I enjoy the faction and keep trying to make it work. However, those pieces don't *fit together* all that well. I feel like there are ways to fix MO. My hope at this point is that if Torchlight Brigade works out, it will provide a good model for improving both MO and Invincible Army. MO and IA both have great theming, great models, and a cool fantasy, but they do need to be reorganised a bit to become more playable. ...wait, did I just say that the church needs a reformation? Hmm...
This is exactly the issue with MO. There are great pieces and fitting them together in a single list can actually be very effective for any single mission. But looking at a 3 or 5 round tournament it gets very difficult to start making the list adjustments and compromises required to be comfortable in 2 or 3 different missions (totalling 5 rounds for your 2 lists)@uanchovy9480
I also think they were and still often are the introduction for many new players into Infinity. There is a real gut punch if you got into the neat little miniatures games because these space knights looked cool, and you then find out they're bad.
I mean he specifically says you can go down other build styles, you're just paying over the odds for the privilege. And as a Haqq player at heart having to 'pay over the odds' is inimical to Rob. 😜 So you're not wrong, Guilangs being one of the few relatively available options to break out of expensive HI specialists really does drive how it plays.
In the context of JSA specialists - nope, we absolutely missed it. A definite oversight! I knew JSA had a few solid mission options but as I went to mention them I blanked on the bikes (and don't personally like ninjas, but aragoto are awesome).
MAF in A+, haha, that was unexpected. I disagree here. I think it's tops A. I do think that it's the best CA's sectorial at this moment. But man those units are expensive as fuck, lack of good midfield, despite having access to smoke, you still rely too much on winning those FTFs, and they are average in that I'd say.
So there's a few things that are worth considering. The first is that the gap between the best and worst infinity factions is a lot narrower than in other wargames - Invincible Army can absolutely take games off anyone else in the game if played well. Second, this tier list is mostly an excuse to talk shit for a few hours and entirely reflects the perspective of the hosts, and I'm the kind of person who likes running fifteen independent troops scattered to the winds and is allergic to any fireteam with more than three troops. This influences how I feel about armies! So take opinions presented here with a grain of salt. If you know how to play and position a five-model murder core, you can do a lot better with Invincibles than I can.
I agree. IA is bad. CB nerfed this shit out of them in N4 with the link team update. They where hard enough to play them in N3. In N3 I was able to play top table a few times with them.
Delightful discussion as always. While vHaqqislam is my favorite faction, how do you reconcile your feeling that they are an A+ Faction with the stance that they are not reliable to win in a competitive environment? You said you would not play them in a five round tournament because they would likely end up being done in by a bad table. How do the tiers work if they are not based on competitiveness? Thank you again for your insight.
I think that's a very good question and comes down mostly to the mood in the room at the time of recording ("what the judge ate for breakfast" if you're familiar with the analogy). However, to unpack it a little - these are rankings of general factional strengths which includes an eye toward competition play, but competition play (and *especially* five round events, which are very rare even compared to smaller tourneys) isn't the sole yardstick. I'll play in one, maybe two five-round events a year but I'll play in ten or more three-round events and I'll have dozens of pickup games in and around those events, and the power rankings try to reflect that broad experience. I'd want to be quite certain about table quality to take Haqqislam to a five-round event (for example, these days I've found it's actually pretty ok to talk to your opponent about if the table needs anything before you set up and roll for deployment) but in a three-round local event where I know the tables will be all totally up to scratch, it's a killer faction. If your focus was more on 5-round events specifically, I think that would be a very good basis to mentally adjust them down to a solid mid to high A faction without actually changing any of the rationale for where they ended up. (On that note, there are other factions who go up and down a bunch based on external factions like that too. Scenario mix is probably actually a bigger influence on a lot of factions - CanCon 2024 ran a spicy five exclusion zone scenarios, for example, which had as much or more impact individual factions' power in the context of that event specifically than quality of tables.)
"A salamander is exceptionally affordable for what it is" Salamander- 72 points 2 SCW Zeta- 77 points 1.5 SWC Dragao- 73 points 1.5 SWC What are they one about? I'll happily trade 5 points for half a SWC, especially in a faction where I have to pay half a SWC to do hacking we are so well known(or reviled if you prefer) for.
A Salamander is an ARM8 BS14 HRMC in a faction *not directly built around firepower superiority*. The fact that it compares passably (not great, but passably) to the likes of a Dragao while playing in a faction with literally all the stuff nomads have makes the Salamander (and the Gator, while we're at it) a great piece at the cost.
@@R0bertShepherdNot certain that makes it a great piece at the cost, says more about the nomads that they lack direct fire pieces to the point where they will pay half a SWC more for a "passable" version of models found in other factions. One of those factions being O12, another generalist faction that does almost all the same stuff as Nomads. Szally is a solid B tier TAG, it does what you want but nothing special and at the highest SWC cost for an HRMC in the game compared to the lowest SWC profile of all other HRMCs. P.S. since you mentioned it I do agree the gator is great. The gator is easily A tier, it is an main battle TAG that goes above and beyond what you would expect it to do (and first armor 8 TAG to not pay a SWC charge for NCO). The only complaint I have is it lacks courage.
I play MO. Highly disagree with you guys here. They are damn good, you do have to pick your battles, but you have all the tools you need to complete the mission
Kosmoflot is most def not A tier. You auto lose against Tohaa pheroware shit, or basically anything that you need BTS for because you are BTS 0 faction. You also can't win against any decent MSV unit, especially linked one, because your stats are generally meh, you rely on mimetism and good guns, but without mimetism winning FtF rolls is hard. Also MSV counters your smoke, so say goodbye to any attempts to get close enough to use your weapons that are all mid-short range ( because outside Cateran there is no long range option that is realistically worth taking ). You focus too much on Unknown Ranger and Bears, sure those 2 are strong if you are observing them in a bubble, but there are faction wide issues that make everyone vulnerable and exploitable including these 2. Not to mention potato hacker option, you list that as vulnerability for vanilla and other sectorials, but fail to take into account with Kosmoflot. TLDR, vulnerable BTS 0 faction, outside Cateran no long range weapons worth taking ( and he is very basic himself just cost efficient ), rely on mimetism and smoke to get into range for all other good weapons/profiles that can't do crap to good MSV units. No hackers worth taking. This cannot be A tier by any stretch of imagination.
Extremely dubious of any tier list that doesn't put vanilla combined in S tier. Putting NCA on the same tier as vanilla nomads or Kosmofloat looks more like a psychological experiment than a serious statement.
We spoke about this a bit off-mic and we actually did come around to the idea that in retrospect, 2021-2022 combined army at the absolute zenith of its power probably was an S-tier faction. But in 2023-2024 it's just a bit lower down.
@@R0bertShepherd I get that, but I don't really think it's come down from that zenith. It's still capable of doing essentially anything it wants as well or better than armies that are specialized in those things, with no real deficiencies - it's allegedly elite, and has no shortage of overpowered top-end models, but also has some of the best trash and cheerleaders in the game. If that doesn't merit S-Tier, I'm curious as to what does.
@@FlyingNinjaish so generally for a faction to be S-tier it needs to combine the ability to do just about everything usually in the same list (i.e. be a vehicle for player skill) with some element of mechanical strength that's oppressively powerful or strong enough to win games by itself (i.e. also compensate for lack of player skill). The points changes over time to combined army, particularly at the low end means that they're now down to only being able to do *almost* everything in a single list, and especially with the quite ruthless Avatar adjustment (points costs etc but the loss of remote presence is the big one) has shaved away the highest of the high ends. This leaves CA mostly using a bunch of very high quality high cost pieces that are nevertheless a *little* bit more midrange on the cost:power ratio front compared to gear check power level pieces like Phoenix in Phalanx or just the raw power potential of premium RemPres TAGs like a Cutter or Jotum, and while that kind of build is very good and is especially a strong vehicle for player skill, it's fallen just below the threshold of being a hard carry by itself. And that's the difference between an S-tier faction and a very very good A-tier faction.
Oh man, this tier list is already dated. With Torchlight units in Army now, we know that vanilla O-12 gets ava 2 Moonrakers and Wreckers. While we dont get the Prime or Striders, we do have ava 2 roadbots. Between Moonrakers and Roadbots, I think Vanilla O-12 should be A tier along side torchlight. Rob will be very happy. lol
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 87 วันนี้!! คู่เอก "ก้องชัย vs โชคปรีชา"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YN6e7HVnekw/mqdefault.jpg)
For those interested in Lockie's channel, you can find it at: www.youtube.com/@DaboarderTTG
Almost 4 hours of three Australians talking about Infinity? What did we do to deserve such a blessing!
*Me trying to explain why I only had 4 hours of sleep last night but*
*Absolutely noone at work knowing what the hell a Rob N4 tier list is and why it's so damn important*
Me at work trying to explain why I only had 4 hours sleep last night and absolutely noone at work knowing I had had to stay up to record a tier list, it was important!
Hello from Spain,
I really really had a good time hearing you guys. It´s amazed me how you rate Panoceania (Vainilla and Sectorials). It is where I have my big discrepancy with you, but what most amazes me is not if we agree or not, but how different arguments and experiences could be. It is obvious yours are quite different to mine and my surroundings. And that was the most interesting thing of all.
Best regards!
This is a wonderful response :)
Having very recently started Combined, it feels like playing without Guided against most factions besides Phalanx is totally viable. The variety of tools you can bring and how different your 2 lists can be are really surprising, supported by that strong bottom line of order generators. Also definitely agree on the Caliban - Protheion can lead to him quickly spiraling out of control while still completing objectives. Sphinx is also an incredible unit that I feel can get more into the spotlight now that the Avatar isn't the end-all be-all, especially in zone control objectives or Res Ops.
YES! Please do a separate video about Tohaa! ❤
This was a fun convo guys, thx for sharing.
Thanks for doing these, your videos are my preferred background painting content.
Always a pleasure to hear your thoughts! And you pulled it in one go too - respect! Thanks :)
Thanks for the video, interesting content as always! I really enjoy these longform discussions. However, it would have been great if you had given some context in the beginning. Is this a Tier List for Aussie meta or does it intend to be universal? Do you rate how strong a faction is in the hands of an average player or how much potential the faction has in the hands of a good player, etc.? Coming from Northern European meta and having played a lot in IGL, I found many of the takes somewhat baffling and weird. But I don't know if it's just a meta thing.
Don't think too hard about it. The goal of the video is to be a discussion of all of Infinity all in one video first and foremost. Accordingly, what we're talking about are our personal thoughts which will be informed by our personal experiences (although all the hosts have relatively strong connections with various communities outside the Australian eastern seaboard, e.g. the IGL etc).
I just started playing infinity and was able to buy almost everything for tohaa. Please make a video talking about tohaa.
I think I agree with most of this. Particularly about ISS. However, I think it’s too early to tell about Torchlight Brigade. A lot seems great on paper but we really don’t know enough in practice.
I think it is time for a Tohaa video. they have been out of production for so long and away from being a common army that they need a spotlight. Even with a video, I think it will be really hard to people to still outsmart a good Tohaa player.
Been so excited for this as a new player!!!!
Awesome work guys; these are super fun to listen to. Thanks so much!
While I only trivially disagree about the Shas location I think a major thing to consider for their evaluation in the current meta is the mission set. The significant increase to % missions with exclusion zones in addition to more missions requiring durable specialists who cannot accomplish mission objectives while in marker state are noteworthy. I don’t think these are bad for the game at all but without some new tools Shas navigating a 3-5 mission lineup is becoming more challenging.
Some missions still reward surgical or non-confrontational play (+ reduced amount of sensor being played this season) allows their redundancy of marker troopers to still be very strong.
The mission lineup I think impacts the power of Shas significantly (maybe the most?).
Yes, Robert, we'd a breakdown of the tohaa, please. As a new tohaa player, I think they are good, but they lack the firepower to make them outstanding.
As someone who has picked up a load of Imperial Army to paint because they look badass, I'm hoping that N5 brings some love to the chonky squad. Thanks so much for putting 4 hours into this.
Looking to get back into Infinity after a long time, was looking at USAriadna as a starting point. Werewolves, bikes and a lot of shotguns trumps any meta performance to me. But this was still a very informative listen!
I have a ton of time for USARF and there's nothing quite like a Desperado for potential to massively overperform relative to cost. :)
00:40:50 Torchlight Brigade army update adjustment
It's really unique to have one of these tier lists where I don't take issue with a single one (at least for those I have the knowledge to form an opinion)
You've mentioned having a crumple zone in your list in this video and several others but i don't really understand it. How would someone build a crumple zone into their list and what kind of units should they be looking for?
So if you imagine a crumple zone in a vehicle - it's the part of a vehicle that's designed to crush or crumple on impact, absorbing the impact and protecting the driver; crumple zones began to be incorporated into vehicles after we realised that trying to make a truly rigid frame protected the vehicle but killed the occupants in crashes.
You can apply similar thinking in an infinity list. It's very, *very* difficult to build an infinity list that takes zero casualties against a dedicated enemy attack, but you can build a list that forces your opponent to engage certain units first, and if those units are acceptable casualties and enable you to still carry out your own plan/counter-attack/etc, you've built an effective crumple zone.
A really good example are Haqqislam Daylami. Two or three of these guys can't be ignored (they have panzerfausts!) but discovering them is generally slow and inefficient. Once discovered they'll almost certainly die, but if your opponent only kills a couple daylami on their first turn, you're only down some expendable irregular troops. Theoretically though, anything can comprise a solid crumple zone for a list provided you're prepared to accept it as a casualty and use it to control what of yours dies and what lives.
Other great examples are auxbots, libertos, helots, sometimes even total reaction bots (with an engineer behind, they can die - they'll be back). In a pinch you can even use the first one or two wounds on a TAG as part of your crumple zone.
Oh man, not feeling great as a new USAriadna player, watching this video after getting paired up with a Tohaa player for my next league game.
Good luck. It's an uphill matchup - not unwinnable but *very* tough.
beginner question: from your experience would you say it it is better to stay with one faction and become an expert with it or is it better to play several different factions to know the different factions better?
Stay with the initial faction for a little while while you learn the basics - once you're comfortable building lists and executing orders / turns / games, start branching out. But importantly, do things that are fun - most people learn much more quickly if they're engaged and enjoying themselves, so doing stuff that's enjoyable (whether that's exploring one faction deeply or branching out) is often also a great way to learn.
@@R0bertShepherd thank you so much!
@@-Ambos- you're very welcome :)
I'm a new player, have been playing Hassassins for a little bit and learning a ton from your videos! I'd like to branch out and try something different, and you rated Starmada & O-12 decently, Torchlight high as well as Vanilla Aleph very high. Could we get a faction focus for one of these?
I suppose the operative question is whether you'd like one of those factions covered before or after N5 arrives in a couple of months? :)
@@R0bertShepherd Hahah, I guess I'm assuming that N5 won't change as much as many people seem to fear... but I could be very wrong of course. Of course, I don't want you to waste a ton of effort on a video if it won't be as evergreen either!
@@bravesamwise84 all good either way - it's the vanilla factions that will probably change most, but I'll slot it into the content list and see when it fits in. :)
Couldn't agree more with Lockie on the subject of list building for Military Orders.
If you know your mission Military Orders can put some top tier options on the table. Problem is when someone is trying to build a list for several rounds event.
With that said, I can't stop having mixed feelings about MO position on the tier list, because if you were to make the same exercise but for each mission on the ITS, Military Orders would rank a lot higher in my opinion.
I absolutely agree.
But rob has been open that the context of this video is very much how the factions handle multiple round events.
And MO is just frustrating to build for that even in lineups that favour their strengths
Max: I’ve been using him in Winterfor and the comments about driving him into DZ and making him a problem is absolutely viable. He’s such a useful profile.
Love this. Just one question: Why have a separate S and A+ tier when you only use one of them? Doesn't that just make your A+ tier the new S tier?
So we didn't go into what makes each ranking as the video would be long enough already, but essentially an S-tier faction is one where the mechanical strength is strong enough to significantly outweigh player skill and carry even a weaker or unlucky player through a large event. The closest N4 has come to this would be Combined Army in the first year or two of the edition (and I unashamedly played them at this apex of strength at Novacore) but it hasn't really existed since in my opinion.
A+ exists as a tier because I thought we would need somewhere to put armies that we couldn't agree whether they were A or S - but there actually wasn't any of those this year, so A+ basically means "A-tier factions that the hosts personally want to gush about because they really like them"
@@R0bertShepherdThanks for the explanation :) That makes (kinda) sense. I'm also happy to see there are no S-tier factions in the game, even though large portions of the internet won't agree with you :P
@@R0bertShepherdnow you tell me this, but still wouldnt let me put any pano in there? 😢
Yes, please, do a video on Tohaa! I hope CB will bring them back with new models!
Lets go druze! Luckily i can scrap together my shas and onyx units to play vanilla if I need to win...
About the Sphinx: it's much worse at fighting than Dragoes or Szally, so it's not a hammer, but it's way too expensive to be a scalpel like a Fiday or Speculo.
It's a chisel, for when you need to be more precise than a hammer but need a little more brutality than a scalpel. The question is "is it worth it," and I haven't played mine yet so I don't know.
As a Haqq player, I'm very worried about an invisible TAG popping up in the middle of one of my links & bathing all my expensive 1W infantry in flame, while my shotgun shells & viral CCWs plink off its armour. Maybe that's just me playing Haqq wrong.
The Rindak is an incredible specialist. Incredible dodge. Extra burst medikit. 27 points. 6-2 move. Sensor. NWI shock immune. It can accomplish a ton of objectives. It’s fast enough to keep up with a Kaitok attack. It’s a good piece.
Jordan rates it highly for exactly those reasons. It's strictly a personal failing that I see it doesn't have the 'Morat' tag in a fireteam and still don't take it even in a haris where that tag barely matters. Also, it *is* a pricey piece of kit, but worthwhile especially in certain missions.
@@R0bertShepherd I used to run a Kaitok/Rindak Haris. Very self contained. Very fast. The Rindak having climbing plus and sensor to ferret out midfield camo. Then the Kaitoks obliterating it. Grabs objectives (assuming you can make the Wip 13). And its burly an enough to hold its own.
In Ikari Druze hackers are your friends for missions :)
Baknin, Neoterran and Svallheim are my fav to play as, I wish military orders was better they would be my fav.
Heyo this has bothered me since this came out. I know it was at the end and 4 hours of talking infinity makes you impatient.
But excluding player errors. Played to the highest potential, Ed potential. how would you truly rank spiral?
The answer changes based on opponent more than faction at that point. The thing about spiral in particular is that they subvert a lot of the usual mental models players build for when and how to engage into something (by combining tohaa defences with helots). In a recent little local event, a very good player from interstate had a game against Ed and didn't quite have the knowledge down for how to fight Spiral, took a couple of fights to 'bait out' helots that ended with helots causing catastrophic damage, and Ed took the event. But I wouldn't expect that player to make that same mistake over and over as they learned how to pressure spiral and learned to mentally build the three-turn-fight plan you need to engage them (rather than trying to knock them out on turn one, which is what they did).
I think that means they have to go somewhere between B and C even played at their best, but your mileage really can vary. Their vulnerability at that point isn't exactly a player who's more skilled than the person piloting them, it's a player who's equally knowledgeable about the matchup as the person piloting them. Now, those players will be rare (sometimes very rare) but if we're objectively evaluating mechanical faction strength, we need to consider it.
@@R0bertShepherd fair. Thanks for the answer. I have been playing the army and i think my group secretly hates playing them. I have had it described as "chewing a tire".
I play in a small scene in south east asia so I dont get tournaments. I only get to learn matchups and never the game as whole I guess
I wanna start playing Infinity and im thinking about what faction to play. Im thinking between Aleph, Tunguska, Nomads or Bakunin but really struggling to decide. Any tips?
So genuinely you will probably want to make that decision based on vibes and aesthetic. All of those are good and any of the nomad sectorials will also serve as an easy jumping point into vanilla if you like.
For my money I'd say Tunguska would be the toughest start (they've received some very nice additions lately but they're still a *slightly* tougher army to play as they have to play for a first timer), and a bakunin list built around the heavy infantry and morlock warband troops will probably be the most forgiving.
But ultimately all are good factions so you want to decide based on what models and aesthetic appeal to you the most.
@@R0bertShepherd Thank you for a great answer. It helped alot! :)
Druze OP as always. I still can't figure out what is it about them that makes us druze players love them so much ruleswise, but love them I do.
If I'm being honest, there's a wonderful attraction in what I'd call a "challenge faction", where everyone *knows* they're just a little tougher to play, which means that making them work means you're a little tougher as a player yourself. And Druze have enough unique stuff going on that they're never totally out of the game if you just look for the edges.
Talking about Haqq and not mentioning how amazing Hunzakut is feels criminal
:popcorn:
I have my own thoughts on Hunzakuts and actually cover them along with a list and battle report in this video: th-cam.com/video/tVtMJtca8es/w-d-xo.html
@@R0bertShepherd Yeah lets just say we have difference of opinion there
im just starting out with infinity, how is haqq without irregulars and bikes? mainly picked haqq for the mini (shueja) i like sneaky theme. For ultimate sneaky and more objective focus (i hear having good hackers are a plus) is haqq the faction for me?
You can play haqq without bikers but I wouldn't play it without irregulars. If you want Haqq to play as a sneaky army with an objective focus, use Daylami and Libertos as your irregulars, as they can sit in the midfield and support your camo specialists and launch asymmetric attacks on exposed enemy positions. Otherwise, be sure to invest in a Hassassin Fiday - the ultimate sneak, they can infiltrate your opponent's deployment zone at the start of the game and pick of key elements like their specialists or lieutenants.
Overall, the Haqqislam sneak / camo game is very solid and they're one of the better factions for it.
Might have missed it, but was there a point in the video that you all talked about not putting anything in S tier? Otherwise, very nice vid!
No, it wasn't an intentional decision - we had the space open but nothing ever slotted in there. We had a little discussion of-mic about it after the episode and the basic consensus was that in retrospect *maybe* 2021-22 combined army was the closest we've seen to an S-tier faction and nothing has come close enough to equal it since.
Thanks for the updated list! One thing I just don't get: How can you link an Initiated Oberservant with Deployable Repeater to a Stigmaton?
So this I think was actually us mis-speaking. I hadn't had a look at the list Jordan was referencing in question but in retrospect I think he was referring to the *Orphan* of the observance. Either of the engineering profiles are excellent to link with the Stigmaton but the upgraded one with E/M mines and a native (not deployable) repeater is a spicy pick.
@@R0bertShepherd I see - now that sounds like a good idea. Have to try this. Cheers!
@@tillhusemann5199 yeah i was misremembering which flavor of religious weirdo could follow the tag around. Either way that duo slapps
Is there any way to figure out how to build a good rounded Kosmo list? I’m trying to get into Infinity and don’t know what to build
If you're just starting, a good mix of capabilities and some strong defences will serve you well. I'd suggest:
1. Rodok core link with a Volkolak missile launcher
2. Chernobog
3. a varangian haris adding in the unknown ranger and a patcher
That's most of a 300pt list but you can round it out nicely with a few cheaper units. Here's an example:
gTIJa29zbW9mbG90ASCBLAIBAQAJAIXwAQQAAIXuAQEAAIXuAQoAAIXuAQQAAIXuAQcAAIXyAAEAAIMJAQMAAIW1AQEAAIYxAQEAAgEABgCG1QEBAACFtQEBAACGMAECAACA8AECAACGLQEBAACGNAEBAA%3D%3D
@@R0bertShepherd Thank you so much!
@@R0bertShepherd any chance you could also do the same with some tips and list for Bakunin? I’ve got the action pack and want to know where to go next
@@thealteredmind9475 so the good news is that the Bakunin action pack sets you up very well with just what comes in it, especially with a bit of creative proxying as they've biased SWC profiles very heavily and I think the box alone contains something like 6.5SWC if you play everything WYSIWYG including the Custodier as a hacking device plus.
I think there's a lot of ways you can go with this pack but if you want to shift toward more tourney-centric bakunin, we'll do a bit of proxying with the existing pack (HMG moira > EM LGL moira, SIN Eater Sniper > Sin Eater MK12, Penitent > Stigmaton etc) and add some remotes and warbands. One box of remotes and one box of Die Morlock Gruppe plus the above proxies gets you this list which is frankly within shouting distance of a list that won an Australian satellite event early this year:
gfcHYmFrdW5pbgEggSwCAQEACQCGQwEBAACGQwEEAACBjQECAACBjAEGAACBoAEFAACBmgEBAACBogEDAACBkwEBAACBkwEBAAIBAAUAhkUBAQAAhkEBAwAAgZwBAQAAgZMBAQAAgZMBAQA%3D
There's a lot you could do in terms of additional purchases to get things that are cool into the list. I really like Agatha Wabara and Robin Hook and of course when you get around to it the actual non-proxied Stigmaton is an awesome model and well worth adding to the collection. Bakunin also expands really nicely into the Riot Grrls side of the faction, but that's more of a second wave kind of thing after you have your REMs and warbands.
If you wanted to, you could consider the Aftermath characters pack instead of the Morlock Gruppe box. This changes the loadout a little but especially regular Zellenkreigers and Morlocks are pretty interchangeable from a proxy perspective provided you're clear with your opponent and Aftermath gives you a few other options to play with including the excellent Denma Connoly, Uhahu and an Extreme Zellenkreiger (all of whom are solid on their merits and also offer a wider set of proxy options).
@@R0bertShepherd thank you so much, this is huge advice!
I would love to hear Ed talk about Spiral
If you'd settle for reading instead, he wrote this:
www.goonhammer.com/catching-snowflakes-spiral-corps/
@@R0bertShepherd thanks!
Hey guys,
A quick question - why do you say that Liang Kai dodges mines with 16? He has no Sixth Sense hence gets -3 to dodge. Or do I miss something?
Nope, we just misspoke. He dodges very well (on 16s) which makes him an ok if somewhat high-value model to take up mine clearing duty (which he dodges on 13s).
Gonna be me and be super contrarian:
Counter-argument about the Dog-Warriors being the worst and slowest dog man and secretely being the best : They're 3W TI, the worse profile lets you move-move against markers, mines, aro etc. and just facetank it instead of needing to set it up with a dodge or a smoke. Also lets you easy smoke behind you. Over 3 dogs, that's 3 extra TI wounds. For free.
Starco can't be bad, they have Raoul.
Having played Forco, I gotta admit the really funny thing is how cheap and supported they get their purecore ORCs. Purecore Orcs with eclipse, wip14 specialist, and CC... with fire support from a bolt sniper haris and two warcors. It's stupid oppressive.
On the topic of Dog Warriors in particular, and setting aside TAK where they have no competition, in vanilla ariadna they compete very directly with the Devil Dog team, which *also* brings three wounds and a wider suite of useful tools, far stronger CC thanks to how peripherals can be used, is 6-4 and throws PH16 smoke out the gate, and the Devil Dog itself is ARM4 rather than starting ARM1 (sometimes having to take multiple saves at that ARM) and going to ARM3. I don't dislike Dog Warriors on their own merits - they're very good! - but they're the worst of an extremely strong set of competitors.
Odalisques got profile update with Reinforcements though.
That's true, but even with the addition of shock immunity and the rolling together of the visor and sixth sense profiles it just wasn't a meaningful one in terms of playability. I guess the unfortunate truth is that for as long as 360 visor costs like ten points they're just not going to be worthwhile.
Incoming angry MO players
Ehhh... I'm an MO player, and I think it's fair? MO have a lot of genuinely great units - Tikbalang, Teutons, Trinitarians, Knights of Montesa, etc. - but it struggles to all come together to form a coherent picture. Joan and De Fersen are both cool but expensive and don't solve your LT problem. You struggle with light infantry - Crosiers lack profile options, Order Sergeants are too expensive, and whatever hybrid core link you hack together is just going to be clumsy compared to anyone else's. You struggle for orders, since you don't have good cheap or even middle-band units.
MO has great pieces. Lots of those pieces are fun and cool and that's why I enjoy the faction and keep trying to make it work. However, those pieces don't *fit together* all that well.
I feel like there are ways to fix MO. My hope at this point is that if Torchlight Brigade works out, it will provide a good model for improving both MO and Invincible Army. MO and IA both have great theming, great models, and a cool fantasy, but they do need to be reorganised a bit to become more playable.
...wait, did I just say that the church needs a reformation? Hmm...
This is exactly the issue with MO.
There are great pieces and fitting them together in a single list can actually be very effective for any single mission. But looking at a 3 or 5 round tournament it gets very difficult to start making the list adjustments and compromises required to be comfortable in 2 or 3 different missions (totalling 5 rounds for your 2 lists)@uanchovy9480
I also think they were and still often are the introduction for many new players into Infinity.
There is a real gut punch if you got into the neat little miniatures games because these space knights looked cool, and you then find out they're bad.
The fact that you think Guilang are bad perfectly explains why you think YJ is only good at "annihilation with extra steps". Just saying.
I mean he specifically says you can go down other build styles, you're just paying over the odds for the privilege.
And as a Haqq player at heart having to 'pay over the odds' is inimical to Rob. 😜
So you're not wrong, Guilangs being one of the few relatively available options to break out of expensive HI specialists really does drive how it plays.
not even a mention to JSA's Aragoto KHD option??
In the context of JSA specialists - nope, we absolutely missed it. A definite oversight! I knew JSA had a few solid mission options but as I went to mention them I blanked on the bikes (and don't personally like ninjas, but aragoto are awesome).
Amy chance we could get a link to Lockee's channel?
link in the pinned comment :)
@@R0bertShepherd Thanks!
MAF in A+, haha, that was unexpected. I disagree here. I think it's tops A. I do think that it's the best CA's sectorial at this moment. But man those units are expensive as fuck, lack of good midfield, despite having access to smoke, you still rely too much on winning those FTFs, and they are average in that I'd say.
Personally I agree and we went back and forth on this. Jordan absolutely loves the sectorial though and I'd already overruled him on other things.
Tohaa spotlight please!!!
This video kinda makes me sad. Invincible Army is by far my favourite. It has so much potential. I have a painted squad. But nah. Just sad.
So there's a few things that are worth considering. The first is that the gap between the best and worst infinity factions is a lot narrower than in other wargames - Invincible Army can absolutely take games off anyone else in the game if played well.
Second, this tier list is mostly an excuse to talk shit for a few hours and entirely reflects the perspective of the hosts, and I'm the kind of person who likes running fifteen independent troops scattered to the winds and is allergic to any fireteam with more than three troops. This influences how I feel about armies! So take opinions presented here with a grain of salt. If you know how to play and position a five-model murder core, you can do a lot better with Invincibles than I can.
I agree. IA is bad. CB nerfed this shit out of them in N4 with the link team update.
They where hard enough to play them in N3. In N3 I was able to play top table a few times with them.
Delightful discussion as always. While vHaqqislam is my favorite faction, how do you reconcile your feeling that they are an A+ Faction with the stance that they are not reliable to win in a competitive environment? You said you would not play them in a five round tournament because they would likely end up being done in by a bad table. How do the tiers work if they are not based on competitiveness? Thank you again for your insight.
I think that's a very good question and comes down mostly to the mood in the room at the time of recording ("what the judge ate for breakfast" if you're familiar with the analogy).
However, to unpack it a little - these are rankings of general factional strengths which includes an eye toward competition play, but competition play (and *especially* five round events, which are very rare even compared to smaller tourneys) isn't the sole yardstick. I'll play in one, maybe two five-round events a year but I'll play in ten or more three-round events and I'll have dozens of pickup games in and around those events, and the power rankings try to reflect that broad experience. I'd want to be quite certain about table quality to take Haqqislam to a five-round event (for example, these days I've found it's actually pretty ok to talk to your opponent about if the table needs anything before you set up and roll for deployment) but in a three-round local event where I know the tables will be all totally up to scratch, it's a killer faction.
If your focus was more on 5-round events specifically, I think that would be a very good basis to mentally adjust them down to a solid mid to high A faction without actually changing any of the rationale for where they ended up.
(On that note, there are other factions who go up and down a bunch based on external factions like that too. Scenario mix is probably actually a bigger influence on a lot of factions - CanCon 2024 ran a spicy five exclusion zone scenarios, for example, which had as much or more impact individual factions' power in the context of that event specifically than quality of tables.)
What is Loki’s TH-cam channel? I have no idea what you said
DaboarderTTG
I've added a link as the pinned comment. :)
Thanks y’all, appreciate it ❤
What happens to the Tohaa zone my beloved?
My co-hosts demanded I stop being a centrist coward and commit to a ranking for every faction.
@R0bertShepherd not me, id have happily put swf there and called it good
You'd have happily put 90% of factions there. Because almost every faction is a special snowflake which someone can play good 😜
Yessssss
"A salamander is exceptionally affordable for what it is"
Salamander- 72 points 2 SCW
Zeta- 77 points 1.5 SWC
Dragao- 73 points 1.5 SWC
What are they one about? I'll happily trade 5 points for half a SWC, especially in a faction where I have to pay half a SWC to do hacking we are so well known(or reviled if you prefer) for.
A Salamander is an ARM8 BS14 HRMC in a faction *not directly built around firepower superiority*. The fact that it compares passably (not great, but passably) to the likes of a Dragao while playing in a faction with literally all the stuff nomads have makes the Salamander (and the Gator, while we're at it) a great piece at the cost.
@@R0bertShepherdNot certain that makes it a great piece at the cost, says more about the nomads that they lack direct fire pieces to the point where they will pay half a SWC more for a "passable" version of models found in other factions. One of those factions being O12, another generalist faction that does almost all the same stuff as Nomads.
Szally is a solid B tier TAG, it does what you want but nothing special and at the highest SWC cost for an HRMC in the game compared to the lowest SWC profile of all other HRMCs.
P.S. since you mentioned it I do agree the gator is great. The gator is easily A tier, it is an main battle TAG that goes above and beyond what you would expect it to do (and first armor 8 TAG to not pay a SWC charge for NCO). The only complaint I have is it lacks courage.
I play MO. Highly disagree with you guys here. They are damn good, you do have to pick your battles, but you have all the tools you need to complete the mission
It's worth remembering that if you do well with a faction we think is bad, by definition that means we think you're a really good player!
I can accept that :D lol@@R0bertShepherd
@@R0bertShepherdI did buy Tunguska because of the Szal and wow what a TAG.
Kosmoflot is most def not A tier. You auto lose against Tohaa pheroware shit, or basically anything that you need BTS for because you are BTS 0 faction. You also can't win against any decent MSV unit, especially linked one, because your stats are generally meh, you rely on mimetism and good guns, but without mimetism winning FtF rolls is hard. Also MSV counters your smoke, so say goodbye to any attempts to get close enough to use your weapons that are all mid-short range ( because outside Cateran there is no long range option that is realistically worth taking ). You focus too much on Unknown Ranger and Bears, sure those 2 are strong if you are observing them in a bubble, but there are faction wide issues that make everyone vulnerable and exploitable including these 2. Not to mention potato hacker option, you list that as vulnerability for vanilla and other sectorials, but fail to take into account with Kosmoflot.
TLDR, vulnerable BTS 0 faction, outside Cateran no long range weapons worth taking ( and he is very basic himself just cost efficient ), rely on mimetism and smoke to get into range for all other good weapons/profiles that can't do crap to good MSV units. No hackers worth taking. This cannot be A tier by any stretch of imagination.
It's not that serious
Extremely dubious of any tier list that doesn't put vanilla combined in S tier. Putting NCA on the same tier as vanilla nomads or Kosmofloat looks more like a psychological experiment than a serious statement.
We spoke about this a bit off-mic and we actually did come around to the idea that in retrospect, 2021-2022 combined army at the absolute zenith of its power probably was an S-tier faction. But in 2023-2024 it's just a bit lower down.
@@R0bertShepherd I get that, but I don't really think it's come down from that zenith. It's still capable of doing essentially anything it wants as well or better than armies that are specialized in those things, with no real deficiencies - it's allegedly elite, and has no shortage of overpowered top-end models, but also has some of the best trash and cheerleaders in the game. If that doesn't merit S-Tier, I'm curious as to what does.
@@FlyingNinjaish so generally for a faction to be S-tier it needs to combine the ability to do just about everything usually in the same list (i.e. be a vehicle for player skill) with some element of mechanical strength that's oppressively powerful or strong enough to win games by itself (i.e. also compensate for lack of player skill).
The points changes over time to combined army, particularly at the low end means that they're now down to only being able to do *almost* everything in a single list, and especially with the quite ruthless Avatar adjustment (points costs etc but the loss of remote presence is the big one) has shaved away the highest of the high ends. This leaves CA mostly using a bunch of very high quality high cost pieces that are nevertheless a *little* bit more midrange on the cost:power ratio front compared to gear check power level pieces like Phoenix in Phalanx or just the raw power potential of premium RemPres TAGs like a Cutter or Jotum, and while that kind of build is very good and is especially a strong vehicle for player skill, it's fallen just below the threshold of being a hard carry by itself.
And that's the difference between an S-tier faction and a very very good A-tier faction.
Oh man, this tier list is already dated. With Torchlight units in Army now, we know that vanilla O-12 gets ava 2 Moonrakers and Wreckers. While we dont get the Prime or Striders, we do have ava 2 roadbots. Between Moonrakers and Roadbots, I think Vanilla O-12 should be A tier along side torchlight. Rob will be very happy. lol
We talk about this in the video as the army update dropped while we were recording.
@@Nice_Things Sorry, Im just super excited for ava 2 moonrakers.
@@AquilaGuard I am also super excited for AVA2 moonrakers. :)