Thinking about the Kairos and how it affected Emet. Emet never truly forgot Hermes's question about the worth of measures of mankind. That's probably the reason that Emet (Hades) is the the only ascian that we actually know of that actually lives a whole life amongst man kind seeing if mankind is in fact worthy of inherent the star.
Emet completely forgot, because of Kairos. He even says so when the WoL summons him in Ultima Thule. "I bid them remember, but _I'm_ the one who had forgotten. A right fool you've made of me, Hermes..." The reason why Emet decided to take interest in modern people, is because he saw how the WoL and their friends had bested Nabriales, Lahabrea and that other Ascian at the end of Heavensward without using Hydaelyn's help, and saw how the WoL succeeded in defeating and absorbing the first Lightwarden and wanted to test them to see if they were truly good enough to consider being worthy of anything. I would also like to think Emet was probably thinking "direct confrontation with the WoL is probably unwise, seeing what they did to Lahabrea and Nabriales. But, Emet let his pride get the better of him, and wound up sharing the same fate as the aforementioned Ascians.
@@Dhalin Emet-Selch had lived thousands upon thousands of lives among the sundered before the WoL was even born, so it wasn't the defeat of Lahabrea that piques his interest. He's actually teasing when he claims his reason for wanting peace is because he thinks we'll defeat him in battle. He doesn't think there is the slightest chance of that happening. He recognizes the WoL's soul and doesn't want to kill the sundered version of his friend. It's only after we fail to contain the light and are doomed to turn into a sin eater as far as he's concerned does he completely lose it and things devolve into a round of fist-a-cuffs.
As someone who, for pretty much my entire adult life has struggled with depression, Hermes was a character I very quickly empathized with when first meeting him on Elpis. I can't even fault him for breaking the way he did... there is more to depression than just the external stimulus that feeds it... there's an internal aspect of it too... something beyond the control of anyone, without therapy and medication. And yes, he reincarnated as a completely different person in Amon. I mean he is animated, flamboyant... his every line delivered with a theatrical flourish that is the complete opposite of Hermes' more reserved demeanour. Amon also saw cruelty even worse than what Hermes did. The kind of sickening entertainment that amused the Allaghans makes the Ancients' euthanizing of rejected concepts look all the more humane by comparison. It's no wonder Amon, when bestowed with all of the memories of all of his incarnations, Hermes in particular would look at it all and want to burn it all to the ground... especially after he resurrected Xande and Xande came back as a nihilistic wreck of a man and not the glorious Emperor he once was. None of this makes me sympathetic to his cause, of course. Even in my darkest times, I prefer life over death, and I get to thinking of the whole point of Hydaelyn sundering the star (beyond weaking Zodiark to imprison him, of course)... in living such perfect utopian lives, the Ancients lacked the strength to push through the darkness and despair. This point is hammered home hard when Hydaelyn insists that we fight her, so she can test our strength and resolve and know whether or not we have what it takes to look upon the darkest despair of all and still have the will to press on. The best villains are the ones who are somewhat sympathetic regarding how they think and feel about the situation, despite their goals being against everything that is good and true. Emet-Selch and Fandaniel are both that top tier kind of villain.
Well, someone darkest hours might be normal to someone else entirely. Things can get into extreme when you’re getting tricked by everyone else. That’s a different story though. Hermes is just the first character of this type. 7.0 gonna introduce more ironically uncanny villains. On the base level, you can get through depression until depression get you back in a surprise way.
That is incredibly well written and I think anyone who went through any form of depression would tear up reading you like I did. Fantastic post, Jeff,.
Honestly, part of the tragedy of Fandaniel is that both his incarnations as Hermes and Amon are truly very similar at the core. It was evident in Elpis that he always had the potential to turn into someone like Amon (given the "right" circumstances), which he did millenias later. With countless lifetimes since the sundering, it's no wonder that as a soul he expresses himself differently, yet he always succumbs to despair in different, yet similar ways, and struggles to find the answers to his question every time. Ironically, him rejecting his past identity as Hermes only drove him further down a path he realized he didn't truly want at the end. It's shown quite brilliantly with the juxtaposition of his memories as Hermes+his memories as Amon, while he's having a breakdown, because in the end they're part of the same "whole" entity who keeps struggling again and again and again. But it was already way too late, which is why one of the choices the wol can select is that they'll help him next time. It's all that there's left to do.
Another few things to notice that’s different between Hermes and Amon. Hermes is more gentle and reserved. Amon is incredibly theatrical and flamboyant. Even in choice of magic. Hermes is an expert in wind magics, not so devastating. While Amon uses more of the destructive magics that are fire, ice and lightning aspected. They are similar, but most definitely distinct individuals.
@@StoutHelm Its like he started as a White Mage. White Mages use wind magic (Aero). When he becomes Amon after the sundering, he changes into a Black Mage. As we saw, White and Black magic existed in the Ancients' time, as Emet uses Black Magic when he fights Hermes.
I think it's best summarized by how Hythlodaeus' refers to you: "New old friend", and also noting that while you're not living your life as Azem anymore since you've reincarnated, "Nethertheless, you are you". Also best examplified with how he worded his and Emet's farewell in japanese: "I'll pray so that we meet again, even if we each take a different form". The core of "you" is the same, but the form/shape you take changes over time, along with your experiences. It's similar to growing up, G'raha Tia's speech about all of that in Ultima Thule was interesting and concluded with "no one really knows what defines you in the end", you're similar to a whole package. Hermes and Amon are the same "him", yet their experiences shaped them completely differently in their respective lifetimes. You can't completely separate them, they're a whole package of the same being, which you can really see at the end of Fandaniel's tale, but you can also see how similar yet different they are to one another.
@@saitouhajime3 The imagery also helps when you consider the fact that Hermes wields a Caduceus. There really is an uncanny parallel of how white mages use Aero, Hermes in RL Greek Mythology's symbol was a Caduceus, and how the Caduceus is oftentimes used as a symbol for medicine, and how Hermes the Greek deity would naturally be associated with the wind element.
I feel bad for Hermes; he's the "black sheep" of the Ancients and honestly wanted to find answers and better Etheirys. But in the end he failed and lost everything no matter how hard he tried 😢
@@StoutHelm you know alot of ff14 takes alot from the real world situation we live in. Imagine you are the anti-war advocate of any race or any nations and try to change that in the real world for decades. That person would be completely broken and possibly go mad learning how shitty humanity is.
"Who are you to decide our fate, to declare to decree we live or die?" These words where the catalyst for Hermes jumping off the slippery slope since he's been doing that for so much time it was starting to break him, You can see the unspoken words written on his eyes and expression during that moment "That you would say such thing, just proves how much of an hypocrite we really are...."
Hermes, overall, could be described as "the gentlest soul" when it comes down to it. We haven't seen anyone with anywhere near as much love for life in general. The fact that he was put into the position of constantly having to see it destroyed is... While he's absolutely responsible for the Final Days, it's hard to call him an outright "villain" or a "monster". His mental state was definitely declining throughout that part of the MSQ and the fact that *nobody* caught it is honestly depressing. Things could've been *so* much better if anyone caught him and offered support before it was too late. Hell, the scene with Meteion and the Elpis blooms is probably the only time he actually felt close to someone or that anyone could relate to him.
I think Emet more or less noticed that Hermes mental state is declining, and attempted to help him by asking Hermes to be Fandaniel so Hermes could leave Elpis. I actually more surprise that both Venat and Hythlodaeus pretty much just let Hermes mental problem to his own. Meanwhile Emet did try to understand what Hermes was getting into, and telling Hermes to leave Elpis by became Fandaniel. Not really solve the core problem, but at least Emet DID try to reach Hermes while the Venat and Hythlodaeus don't.
I think part of the issue was that *no one* could help him. He was estranged with a heavy depression in a world where everything was almost perfect. Everyone who passes by the Elpis flowers always turns them white, and rarely ever any dark colors. We were the only ones who could turn said flower into a dark one. In a twisted sense, we were the only ones Hermes would relate to.
The way I understood the ancients dying after completion of one’s purpose made me think that they actually commit some form of medically assisted suicide once their job is over. Venat refused to do this after stepping down. But she was an outlier.
I assumed it was them using their creation magics to just undo their corporeal forms... similar to what they apparently do with their creations that are flawed... and what we see Emet do to himself and Hyth once the path to the Endsinger's nest is opened.
It's funny how Hermes always end up always following a another person goal or resolve. Hermes just listen to Meteion and how the song of oblivion is the answer, and instead of trying to get his own answer, he just accept it. Amon felt a lack of purpose in life, and the moment he manage to revive Xande back from death, he starts following Amon and his quest for conquest to bring back the golden days of Allagan, but something happens..Xande realize everything is meaningless and everything he makes will be turned into nothing and instead of saying anything, he does what Hermes did and just accepted Xande answer and starts doing what his emperor wanted (destroy the world). When the ascian comes back, instead of betraying them or to do anything, he follows his ancients overlord, until all of them are dead. He has nobody to follow he goes back to his originally goal, which is of course following Meteion and Xande goal...oblivion. Hermes and Amon was living on borrowed resolved.
He implies in one of his conversations with Zenos that he only acted in line with the Ascians because Elidibus and Emet kept him on a tight leash. He already seemed to be under way with setting up the Telophoroi by the time he realized Elidibus was gone (which he realized because Elidibus hadnt shown up to shut it down--implying he's tried this sort of thing behind their backs before)
A wonderful video! I'd like to add another bit to this for extra context: In the Aitiascope the shade of Amon admits that while he as Hermes intended to erase his memories with Kairoz, all he did was burn them deeper into his soul. So all his life as Amon, he was tormented by dreams he couldn't truly figure out until later, nightmares of his life as Hermes that one day in Elpis. Which he only later started finding out were memories when he became Fandaniel. Can you imagine just how traumatizing that must have been? Also, a personal observation: Never once has he as Hermes, Amon or Fandaniel personally acted to find the happiness or meaning of life he wished to find. He sent out Meteion and her sisters, he worked with the Convocation of Fourteen, he clung to his work in the Allagan Empire and later on Xande, he stayed mostly dormant in the Ascian council and even relied on Zenos (but mostly used him tbh) to guide his efforts to end the world. Every single time, he stood by the side of someone else. The most personal decision he ever made was to drop into that hole on the moon and end Zodiark. Every other moment in his life, he looked toward others to give him purpose, as evidenced by trying to please even ZENOS by setting up a dinner-date. He was incapable of functioning without external input driving him onward. No wonder he doubted himself in the end.
Not only did he find out that those nightmares were memories, but when he was given the memory crystal of fandaniel, he also remembered things differently than the crystal showed him. Because the crystal was made with the memories of the fandaniel that had forgotten about mietion and the warrior of light, but he himself remembered everything. So while he was given the memories of a hermes who was desperately trying to fight against the final days with the 14, he had always remembered his time as a hermes who fought against members of the 14 in order to bring about the final days. The conflict between these two identities would do massive damage upon anyone's mind.
Its really hard for me to classify Hermes as evil, as many people easily do. From my perspective, he was an extremely gentle soul who cared very deeply for his creations, as opposed to his counterparts. His sole mistake, which led to the Final Days, was refusing to hand over Meteion. He does not condemn his people to suffering, that I feel is a misconception. He is challenging them. Sure, this may sound like I am re-framing it (sophistry, as they say xD), but he does not do what he does so they can suffer - that's not his intention. This challenge is to put their superiority, their right to choose, to the test. He is turning the table and putting the Ancients in the shoes of the lives they so easily create and destroy. And they failed spectacularly. If he was truly evil, he would have accepted Meteion's offer to join her. But he didn't, he chose to fight for Etheirys. He did not take the cowards way out. He knew the trial he was putting the world through, and then decided to fight for his people. He's...just more complex than many realize. Such a fantastic character in my opinion. There is a gray area here for Hermes to fall in. Amon however, is certainly evil. His intention is to destroy the world, not to challenge it. He doesn't care about the people on Etheirys, not even a little bit. What he did to Garlemald was proof of that. There is no underlying cause to it. Pure and simple, he wants to end all lives because he believes living is meaningless - and he uses Xande as justification of his action. Of course, Hermes actions are indefensible.
Hermes was right wasn't he? 2:29 Isn't that what would have been what happened to Ehteirys? Once they "perfected" the star it would all be over. Their striving for "perfection" is the problem with ancient society.
@@toychristopher partially. They lived such privileged lives, they didn't know terror or horror or fear or pain. Despair. It so violently shook them that they didn't have the capability to cope or even the means to walk forward. They were willing to over up their lives to escape their pain. Death was never what scared them, as Emet said, we celebrate their lives when they CHOOSE to return to the planet. So death wasn't what scared the Ancients so. The pain of losing a loved one so abruptly, violently, completely. It wasn't like their souls were given back to the lifestream. As we later find out, when they turn, everything is consumed, even their aether, they very being. Nothing is left of them. Venat so no other way to help the people of Ethyris other than to sunder them, to splinter their souls, to make them forget by sundering their souls, and the shards. Maybe in some way, she wanted people to remember (the Echo being born in those who witness some kind of great cataclysm) but ultimately, it was only a small bit, meant to remind us that we can still go on living, even during the worst of catastrophes. And we proved Her right. But even she knew, it would never be easy. For her, for us, especially for Emet.
Hermes is not evil for the creation of Metion, but on not adhereing to other subject testing protocol and the decision to use Kairos. And if he suceeded in wiping everyone's memory, then he would have probably destroyed everyone in the story. He basically invented an AI that started going rogue. It does not really matter what his intention is as what he did was akin to putting everyone in a war against something they could not even see. Its also judgment of an entire society for the actions of the rulers (the convocation). He basically weaponized meteion to terrorize an entire society. Meteion for her part even could tell it might goes this wrong and was trying to avoid giving the report to Hermes. Hermes is really the true villain as he made himself jury and executioner. Meteion is simply the tool that Hermes uses to attack society. This is even more apparent when you realize that he does not really decide things and instead lashes out with emotions. Him feeling things are wrong and deciding to judge society is how a villain would operate. In fact, its not any different then the motivations of Doctor Cid from FF12.....which is a very comparable antagonist. Creates a tool using ancient technology, judges that society should be different and thus uses the tool on society.
Makes me wonder if Amon became so self loathing BECAUSE he inherited Hermes's soul, or if it was just an unfortunate coincidence to "combine" two unrelated and unfortunate beings (doubling up on despair)
Amon wanted the Alagans to steer away from its current hedonistic ways (this is where his despair started) and resurrect Xande so he would lead them to a new glorious age. Xander was someone that Amon admired and Xande was very nihilistic after his resurrection.
It's also worth noting that the memory erasing machine he used can not completely erase memories. Once the soul returns the the aetherial sea, the memories return. So he also had the conflict of remembering fragments of his life as hermes, and when he was given the memory crystal of fandaniel, it was as if the memories in the crystal were from a different person than who he actually remembered being. The crystal gave him the memories of fandaniel trying desperately to help the 14 prevent the final days, but his soul gave him the memories of *causing* the final days, which only drove the despair in even deeper.
I thought this as well. What happens if you have the soul of someone who loves everything and you are pushed to commit atrocities from the reinforcement of society? It feels the cognitive dissonance literally broke him. There was something about the cut scenes, its almost like i could feel the dissociation when dealing with the people enjoying the torment. But that might just be me
I really love how the writers of this game made their villains more than one dimensional. Each of us can understand and feel empathy for Hermes even though his soul mission was to destroy life.
I find Hermes to be the least evil of the Ancients. Instead of a condescension of what his peers consider "lesser beings", he values all forms of life. To many of the Ascians, other forms of life, whether arcane or with soul, are a mere form of entertainment. It is strangely similar to Amon sewing the bull's head on another Allagan to entertain his own peers in a failing civilization. This similarity is driven home by Hythlodaeus when he describes all the constructs submitted on a shark. It is further rammed home by Venat's speech about every paradise having shade. Also, there is a sidequest in Amaurot (SB) where the reconstructed Ascian laments what will happen when his fellows run out of ideas for constructs. Most Ascians will tell you that they act to benefit the star, but do they really? They seem to be acting for their own benefit and amusement. The true nature of Hermes is actually what Venat is trying to convince the Zodiark worshipping group to be in that symbolic sundering scene. This is reflective of his ability to turn the Elpis blooms colors other than pure white. In short, Hermes does not place a hierarchy on creatures. He values life. His peers value their own importance above all else. The idea of perfection of the star is only reflective of THEIR perfection and THEIR opinion of what that should be.
If you haven't played the Pandaemonium raid series, then don't read ahead. But Athena is the ideology of the Ancients' taken to its logical conclusion. She as a villain exists to display to us the true feelings, albeit a most extreme version, of the Ancient mainstream consciousness. And it is not beautiful.
I think the reason why Hermes personality didn't got a grip in Fandaniel, was simply Hermes tempered his memory and erased the most important person with it....Meteon. So when Amon awoken as ascian, he perceived Hermes as completely fake and only inherited his knowledge. In certain way Amon's reason to ressurect Xande was strongly by the void in his soul. For Amon Xande was a replacement for Meteon without knowing and adopted much of his bleak philosophy. What we fought in Aitoskop was the insanity was left behind, when 2 different memories of Hermes clashed with each other and only Amon remained. Without the tempering of Hermes memories the personality of Hermes would be dominant. Which was confirmed by Fandaniel itself at the tower of Zot. Fandaniel can't be described as a psychopath, but as someone whos unbridled schizophrenia left alone too long. Without the Unsundered to control him, it was clear that he try to end his suffering and make the world pay for his suffering by dooming it. Through theatralic of a jester was the only way he could act. The difference between Hermes and Amon/Fandaniel, Hermes despair based on his depression and guilt, while the despair of Fandaniel was his schizophrenia and that his mind fall apart without even possibilty that dying would grant atleast him peace for the simple reason that as a Ascian he was bound by Zodiark and could be ressurected. So for Fandaniel the only way he could find peace was destroying Zodiark and himself at the same time. But in the end he couldn't get even this.
I love this, I feel like one of the only people that really liked Hermes and felt bad for him despite all of his mistakes. Thank you for the awesome video
Personally Hermes is one of my favorite or well…….oh yeah definitely after EW he and meteion(i use them in tandem) are like my favorite ff antagonists mostly because i see the point of their struggle. Despair. Despair that i relate to too much tbh. Especially as a new adult coming out of high school and with so many aspects of my life changing and etc. and wondering if ill be okay or will i lonely throughout my his journey. And most importantly why am i living or bothering with anything anymore. Disappointment in myself, others, and just how things are…it can be really suffocating so much so that it can you lead you to becoming a worst version of yourself that can harm others and most importantly, yourself. Hermes in general to me is an example of who not to become tbh and im glad FF14 gave us him and in general the whole expansion…it gave me clarity and honestly hope to keep on living.
Remember folks,Even Ancients and Gods can succumb to Depression and Depression ain't no joke. and irl People WILL do questionable regrettable irredeemable things once their mind is broken and that's a Tragic true fact and It's really something inevitable..Now imagine if a God or an Ancient suffers the same consequences. Hermes and Fandaniel suffers from Deep Depression and were beyond help because their minds have already been broken and it's just hard to NOT sympathize and relate with both of them,especially if you're someone who's also struggling the same path. Now Characters like Asahi on the other hand,Can fuck right off.....
‘It’s not easy to talk about depression.’ Must be the understatement of the century. I think Yoshi P’s team did a good job of approaching a delicate subject. Herme’s plight, and his reasoning and mistakes, made me angry first and foremost. I won’t go into details as it was a deeply personal reaction. But it did cause a reaction, and positive or negative, that was the point. Thank you for this video and for sharing your thoughts with us. Great work and good quality as always. 👍 Stay safe. ❤️
I'm not so sure Zodiark or Hydaelyn _could_ temper. The Lopporits mention that Tempering was added to the summoning rite only when the Ascians started teaching Beast Tribes how to summon. Which actually makes sense. Because there are Primals who get summoned who are never shown to temper things, because they weren't summoned via the Ascian-taught ritual. Susano is the primary example here; but Tsukuyomi also doesn't even try to temper, nor does Shinryu. Meanwhile in the same expansion as those three Primals we have Sri Lakshmi who quite clearly does Temper... but was summoned by a beast tribe and we can assume they were taught how to do it by Ascians. Shiva also never tempered anyone, not even the person she was summoned into.
Emet states in Shadowbringers that Zodiark was tempering his followers, including himself. I do remember the Loppo conversation. Tempering is more of a “can” as opposed to “will” in my mind. Tempering is just a corruption of someone’s aether.
The Loporitts also mention that even with proper true creation magic, a being as powerful as Zodiark will still exert a "tug" on those creating him. The tempering isnt due to the process like with later primals, but rather the sheer scale of his power
there is only one quote that will i hope enlighten those who still view hermes as some mad villain. "Just because someone stumbles, loses their way doesn't mean they are lost forever"-Charles Xavier Xman Future Past. I think if given a chance...if hermes himself followed Emet's example and "co-operated" and saw life as our WoL did and reflected on his past and now the present then the result would have been much different.
Think I mentioned this on this stream, too. When I was talking with my friends, I mentioned that Hermes, himself, was a tragic person because he cared about life. Meteion was the proof. The flawed he had was simply giving into despair… when he should of cared for Meteion and at least fight for her happiness. Amon/Fandaniel, on the other hand, was a horrible and twisted person and the true villain for FF14 and the final days. This shard of Hermes wanted everyone to die and himself. He cared about nothing, but that goal. He got the memory back thanks to Emet… only to turn on their backs, too, when they were defeated. Then he tried to stop us again in the dungeon only to finally be defeated. I ended up choosing that we’ll find the answer together next time. Part of me still feel bad for Hermes, but also Amon was a psychopath. So it was split, but that’s exactly what he was: Pieces of himself.
Amon/Fandaniel was turned into a psychopath because of all the despair that he was walked and crawled through imo. He was never truly bad in the beginning but well yeah.
I find it fascinating that the big villains in the game went down the paths they went because they felt things so deeply, just had HORRIBLE ways of coping with them.
It makes me think of qualities of Tony Stark in Marvel, especially the MCU version... next to his hubris, his biggest problem is that he cares so deeply, TOO deeply and it drives him to do some harebrained things.
A lot of people were pretty concerned that Fandaniel was just going to be a one dimensional maniac. It was interesting that he got fleshed out, after we already killed him.
I related to Hermes far more than i'd like to commit... But who am I to decide the fates of others. Despite how much hate fills me, it would be wrong to condemn them. But I know, that is often not the case with others.
Thing is, we don't know how old Hermes is or how long he's had these pains festering in him. Could be 100 years, could be 1,000 or 10,000 or more than that. And in all that time, not a single soul reached out to him or treated his misgivings as anything more than "melodrama?" Yeah, I'd be fucked up by that too.
The thing I find with Hermes is it feels we could have helped him before things went as bad as it did. The issue is he did so much on his own which is why I like the offer of friendship you can give. I also feel amon in the end gets the worst of the 3 outcomes. First he has "dreams" of all that happened while we were with Hermes meaning he was constantly seeing that life was meaningless, then when he tried to make the world good again (in terms of alleg good) Xade wanted to end everything. Then after all that he is approached by Emet, who gives him the memories and knowledge of who he used to be, this confirms the dream and also gives him the knowledge on how he tried to save these people. Giving him two sets of mismatched info the one that would save and try to restore the world and simultaneously the one that brought this to begin with. So the despair he had plus all the knowledge he had made him suppress everything to the point when he dies as zodiarks heart we see he enjoys how much this would displease Hermes. I think it's kind of why Vanat is a good opposite of him, where hearing the facts earlier of how the world is, she dosnt reject it, the same when she hears of the other stars fate, she dosnt reject the despair she accepts it but also sees the answer of hope in all this despair.
You’re right, Hermes needed help. All the signs were there. But the ancients didn’t see him as someone to help, but just someone who needs to be stopped. Ancient society keeps taking Ls.
For all their talents, for all their knowledge and strength Hermes and Amon decided to create a being to find an answer to life when they could've made it themselves. That's the most depressing part, it's hard to face the world sometimes and all you want is a little push in the right direction but there are times when you need to take the step and walk forward leading those who may follow.
I’m not sure if it has been mentioned before, but Hermes was also affected by Kairos and had his memory wiped, he didn’t comply with the convocation while knowing about the incoming destruction and who was to blame. When Emet gave Amon Hermes’ memories the events in Ktisis were etched so deep in his brain that it all came flooding back, which, to someone like Amon, was enough to truly push him over the edge to Xande’s ideals
Mostly unrelated to the video, but someone on twitter posted an image where they took the main 3 ancients models and placed them in gridania's adventurers guild building. And damn they're massive, emet almost scratches the ceiling with how tall he is
I would say... Fandaniel does indeed do everything and anything to see the worlds end, but in the end it's not 'really' what he wants ( 12:49 ) It's a lashing out born from his overwhelming despair. It's a matter of someone going full 180 when something they believe in to their very core -- is shattered and utterly undone. Hermes believed death was NOT beautiful and the very first line Zodiark delivers is how 'beautiful' the death of life on Etherys will be. He truly had become a caricature of his old self, since his old self couldn't cope with all that happened. There's A LOT more to say about Hermes/Fandaniel and it really does show what a character he is. Ishigawa really went all out on him.
Yes! He clearly saw the flaws in their society but they apparently had a culture where he wasn't able to discuss those flaws without being labelled as an aberration.
I believe that Azem has also reincarnated thousands of times across the shards before our WoL. Azem has probably been all of Hydaelin's chosen over the ages, with Vanat recognizing their soul and gifiting them the echo so that they become warriors of light and protect humanity. There is a hint at that on the first with the Viera tribe and their mythos of a warrior of light
A wondefully done and insightful summary. I often am left in awe at some comment in an earlier expansion that comes to mean so much more through different eyes. And if you don't see how the song 'Answers' has changed in meaning as we grew into the world, well, there is no hope for you. LOL
@@StoutHelm Actually, that is a great idea, from the pleas and mourning of ARR to the self sacrifice and promises of EW. Had a friend rave at Answers in the ARR trailer and I could only smile sadly as I recalled the scene that stored my heart out all over again.
Just seeing this and maybe someone has already said this, but for me I think Hermes was probably the first Ancient to suffer through depression. The weight of each creation was something he highly empathized with to the point that he personally felt like he was murdering them each time they'd get 'replaced' or 'fixed' or 'undone'. The others seeing them as just puzzle pieces to the overall world and culling what didn't fit in well enough, he saw them all as precious souls that he should do all he could to make sure they *could* fit in before that final decision came. All that summing up to cause his overall depression in the first place, and like in the real world, it was treated dismissively. His thoughts and values by this point highly differed than the average Ancient and it resulted in him wanting to find out how other worlds did things. To find flourishing worlds with other peoples who did things differently than his own to prove, maybe to himself more than anything, that what they were doing wasn't the only way. I think that's why the reports of every other world being desolate, dead, or dying hit him so hard. It meant that their world was the only one that was doing well in a universe full of dead ones, no doubt making him feel like his problems with their society as a whole didn't have any ground when all the others that did differently were now dead. I do agree his outburst is impossible to defend, but if at least *one* person agreed with him, it might've turned out differently.....maybe. Edit: Posted this before finishing the video. Guess part of it is just rebuffing the same thing. Also the San d'oria music sent me back in fucking time.
If you ever keep your eyes on how incredible unnaturally long NECKS are in FFXIV and especially so the insane long necks of Ancients you will never unsee it. Like look at them. Look at their necks. They are more giraffe than human.
Personally, I loved Hermes from a character standpoint. Yes, he was flawed and yes he had good intentions. but he had the same question a lot of people always ask, "What is my purpose? what is the meaning of life?" and seeing someone who can ask that same question while on an island of perfection and creation, where your only limit is your imagination? It made it impossible to actually hate him; disliking his treatment towards the Meteia is a different story. I wholly wished we could've spent more time on Elpis, not to change the course of history, but just to spend more time there to be able to really think about the question ourselves while we wandered the islands of perfection.
He WANTED to do good. But he ended up doing the most evil thing of anyone in the FFXIV universe. As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
@@StoutHelm When he told Meteion to join her sisters and destroy the universe, and basically said "people will find a way to survive if they're worthy, now I'm wiping everyone's memories", I view that as pretty evil.
@@StormsparkPegasus it’s not so black and white but that was pretty harsh and arrogant of him. I think he truly wanted for all life to have a chance but he wasn’t in the right place mentally at this point. Totally consumed by the report.
@@StormsparkPegasus The point is that an ant is as important to him as a human being, he doesn't even see himself in a particular special way, otherwise he would have joined Meteion. Instead, he himself also participated (unknowingly after losing his memory) in the test that he himself initiated. Does this make him evil? Yes and no. His depression was born from the insane habits that the ancients had in abusing the magic of creation and the latter did not see the problem to the point of not understanding that someone like Hermes is the last person to be put in charge of Elpis.
But none of them caused an apocalyptic event. He had a chance to tard wrangle Metion but instead he help her escaped which resulted the final days. Let's also not forget he caused another apocalyptic event by bringing back Xande leading to the fourth calamity. This guy is responsible for the destruction of two advance civilization.
We can all relate to being in a dark place mentally but it’s the choices you make in response to those negative emotions. Hermes chose wrong… a few times. Haha
I’m personally not as harsh on Hermes, but I do acknowledge his role in the greatest threat to the world. It doesn’t take a bad person to do bad things.
@@hotstinkytaco Because they CAN'T. Seriously that is unbelievably optimistic to think that not a single person would burn the world if they could. That no one in the Meteia, Hermes's or Amon's position, authority and power would do that if they had the capacity to subjugate the planet to despair.
Your tying together these threads makes for a wonderfully sad tale. A pity SE would never authorize a writer to pen it as a complete story [a true author, not a game writer]. Your explanation was spot-on.
You mentioned in the video that all primals are capable of enthralling people, including Hermes. I thought the Loporits corrected this misunderstanding when they stated that the Ancients creation magic had no such criteria for Primal summoned (Such as Ifrita and Azems volcano escapades)
In my opinion, there was one thing that could have stopped Hermes from ever going over the edge. And that is seeing what the result would be of an ancient who had seen enough being forced 'to stay'. His young age was literally what made him so vulnerable in the first place. He could not see how 'living forever' is more a curse then a blessing. Something his later reincarnations actually learned and drove him insane.
Hoo man I am loving these! I'm thankful for these types of videos since Endwalker gave *so much info* it's hard to register everything in such an epic story. But man I really understand Hermes, thankfully not to a T but... I do get where he is coming from even if I inherently disagree with his choices. The man was a lonely one and he sought answers no one had because they were different from his understanding of the world. Yes his shards were insane and yet... Even now I want to offer a hand to them, well perhaps not Fandaniel but definitely Amon and Hermes. Just show them that, they're not alone and that... Searching for answers is not inherently wrong but it shouldn't be by his lonesome because it's not for the faint of heart. They both were desperate man, trying to cling in what gave their life meaning knowing deep down their "goals" were never theirs. They sheparded what others decided life was worth because it was all they had. A tragedy by definition. Edit: it also makes me think about the live letter and how in a few of these characters, kindness is their undoing. I think how much you love these characters depends on how much you can empathize with them or just understand where they're coming from. Kindness is a boon, but it's easy to forget how the lonely it can be for those who gift it. But it's just like Alphinaud said! "We've not come this far from passing judgment. It is by opening our hearts and understanding their plight that we've moved forward. Yet understanding is not acceptance. And the moment you feel falling into despair you can count on me to lift you up, just as I have counted on you before. "
6:48 Are those Ancients really part of the Convocation? I honestly saw them as regular people who wanted things to go back to the way things were before.
In the end, the Ascians, born from and living by aether, are all defeated by dynamis, by their emotions : They believed that their motivation was towards their function as part of the Ancient society, but it is only when we confront them directly that they start realizing that the love of their friends and relatives was what mattered most to them : Emet-Selch's despair was indeed caused by the shattering of his belief in his perfect, unchallenged utopia, yes, but as we experience throughout ShB with him constantly putting the WoL to the test looking for a trace of Azem inside them and Hythlodaeus being the only ghost in Amaurot that is really "alive", it was the loss of his two best friends that really broke him. Once we prove to him that the soul of Azem is still alive even in this sundered existence, he entrusts the future to us. Elidibus believed that he was needed because he is Elidibus, the mediator, that he acts because it is his role, but sacrificing his life to become Zodiark - fulfilling his mission - did not bring him peace, because his beloved friends were still hurting, so he withdrew from the primal to become the Warrior of Light in order to bring them hope, but we had to remind it to him for the conflict to end. As for Fandaniel, we don't really see him before he became lucid about the cruelty of how both the Ancients and the Allagan empire treated life, be it human or not, but it is indeed his love for the species he nurtures that drove him to despair, and especially his love for Meteion, that he chose over the fate of the entire Amaurotine civilization. It is to her that we had to give our Answers instead of Hermes directly, but the point remains the same. Mitron didn't even really care about the Rejoining, and was fine with the sundered world as long as he remained with his lover Loghrif, and even though Lahabrea didn't really get his personality explored as an Ascian, the fact that we're now getting a story about his difficult relationship with his son and late wife and helping him via confrontation realize his own emotions makes me think that even he was probably driven more by Ericthonios, whatever his fate might be, than getting the Lahabrea Institute and Pandemonium back in order.
I love your analysis videos on FFXIV characters! If you'd be interested in being a guest on the Popoto Pub FFXIV Podcast, I'd love to discuss the FFXIV story with you there.
I see Hermes as a symptom rather than the disease upon his people. If not for Hermes, eventually there might be another one just like him. The Japanese voiceover also gives you this feeling that he's nice, and a bit far too nice for his own good, which led to him doing the unpredictable things he did. No one answered his cry for help. I'd even say that although Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus are good folk, they don't hit as close to home as Hermes for me. But I guess that's the point in FF14, you're not supposed to look back at the Ancients and want to be like them. We have to accept our flaws, and embrace our suffering to make the most of our very fragile and decidedly mortal lives. To cheat this debate a little, Ishikawa actually pointed out that the fate of the Ancients was to end up like the Ra-La race. So what Hermes said about "what happens when we reach perfection" is actually more accurate than he knows. And just now in 6.15 (avoiding too much spoilers), we have a side quest with a different perspective that suggests their society is flawed despite its paradisiac nature which ultimately led to its downfall. A bit off-topic, I've had experience with depression myself, very common stuff, the kind that knocks the will to live out of you as you drown at the bottom of the world and gaze into a sky far too blue and oppressive. I'd say that having the will to ask for help and abandon my stupid pride to claw my way back to a state of functioning human being made me a far better person than I had been, and even then there are such kind souls out there that it's absurd to not be humbled. I really do get Venat's message now, but I daresay before I won against my depression, with my hubris and lack of empathy, I would have thought the message overly sentimental, foolish, and boring. It takes a more mature mind to really enjoy the writing of FF14, and I'm glad that I've walked far enough along my path to understand things, the fool that I am.
The thing with Hermes is that he didn't start as evil. He ultimately was trying to do good in his own way, albeit in a rather, for lack of a better word, twisted way. The problem is that at some point, when questioning if he or his people are wrong, never once does he think both are possibilities. His (understandably) darker mindset and depression wasn't helping things at all. That whole thing with Meteion might very well have been the breaking point. He had basically become the embodiment of a question from Kefka Palazzo. *"Why create when it'll only be destroyed? Why cling to life, knowing you have to die?"* It was too much for him. Being split into 14 different pieces almost certainly didn't help, now becoming a twisted man keen on killing everyone and everything on Etheirys. Still not the MOST evil character though. That I'd say belongs to the person whose body he possessed, Asahi. Or van Varro in the Weapon Trials. Comparing to those two, Hermes is...well I'll call him the lesser bad.
Zodiark does not temper, due to the scale of his summoning there is a "slight pull", but it's not tempering like we know it. The tempering process was added into the creation magic the ascians passed to the sundered in order to destabilize the shards. The lopporits explain that proper use of Creation magic does not temper, and they prove this correct when they have the best tribes summon their primals during the take-off cutscene. Emet selchs throw-away dialog in Shadowbrings has him literally admit he could be lying 'and we'd never know' Fandaniel also cannot be tempered. He's a sundered ascian, which means the Echo is a requirement. Those with the Echo cannot be tempered. Also, they did sacrifice more ancients in order to restore the star. It wasn't to 'restore it to what it was' they sacrificed themselves to 'restore life to the star' The final days had left the planet in ruin, they needed to fix it. When they were going to sacrifice all the NEW life on Etheirys was when Hydaelyn was created.
Thanks for pointing out the error with the sundering. Did some research after reading this comment and I’ll be correcting it In the next video on Venat.
A character such as this would have been exceedingly easy to mess up, ultimately I have to say Hermes really worked for me, tho I did have my reservations innitially. For one I thought the descent into madness was quite sudden and too complete, but that is simply from our perspective and as I had time to look back after leaving Elpis it did click for me. Both him and Meteion are really well done, it shows how easily twisted peoples emotions are and the lengths and extremes they can go to, especially when not confronted by anything else.
I felt for Hermes. He was basically proof that the world unsundered was not as perfect as Emet remembered. If only they had some quality therapy in Elpis, maybe he wouldn't have gone down such a path. I definitely don't think he was evil. Just flawed and very depressed, struggling with an existential crisis. On a lighter note, I love the San d'Oria music in the background. Brings back happy memories of FFXI.
I wanted to clarify something: Zodiark cannot temper anyone, and neither can Hydaelyn. Only primals summoned with the desire to force others to believe in them can temper anyone, and that additional caveat was something Ascians came up with in order to make the summonings endless. What we know as summoning primals is nothing more than a modern version of creation magicks. The reason half the Ascians sacrificed themselves is the same reason beast tribes need crystals: sources of aether. But to make a gigantic creation with the power to manipulate the laws of reality would need more than just a few crystals or one ancient's aether. Moreover, like any creature, Zodiark needs aether (food) and so it requires an enormous amount of aether. The people in favor of Zodiark (not tempered, I remind you) come to the conclusion that they will continue to create things and foster proliferation of creatures with the sole purpose of eventually sacrificing half of those living things to bring the first sacrificed Ascians back. But there were people who were opposed to that idea. No one who opposed Zodiark had a real plan, though... Except Venat since she knew what the origin of the calamity was and how to interact with Dynamis. She eventually sunders most living beings into 14 so as to dilute the aether enough to allow them to interact with dynamis and stop Meteion.
This isn’t entirely correct. While it’s not explicitly called tempering, Emet-Selch states in Shadowbringers that Zodiark’s influence did affect his followers. The English script refers to it as a tug, but other languages are more specific that it is like tempering.
@@StoutHelm Emet Selch in the line immediately after calls all of that into question by saying he could be lying and that you'd never know. The lopporits show us that original creation magic does not temper.
@@cedertrees2425 Emet doesn’t seem like the kind of guy to be dishonest and suggest right after that he’s not telling the truth. That’s my interpretation anyway. We’ll probably just have to agree to disagree on this one.
His line of work in ancient times put him in a unique position. His people celebrated "returning to the star" as something beautiful. Yet he sees the flipside in his daily work. "they sense what awaits. Rage in anguish and cower in fear...and it is not beautiful." This contradiction degraded his social connections to his people. He lost sight of the little moments of beauty in a sea of misery, and so, having lost his own answer, he created Meteion to fill the hole, in more ways than one. Meteion became his one social connection, as well as the answer to his question. An answer that led to his repeated doom. "Tell us why, given life, we are meant to die. Helpless in our cries." This is one of the very first questions ever posed in this game. We don't know what it means or why yet, and the game spent 9 years slowly unravelling that. In the song that tells us Venat's answer, at the very start of this game. the Realm Reborn trailer. The end of an era. Answers, is Venat's answer to the question. Meteion poses it to the people of a utopian star. Their lack of an answer drives them to annihilation. Venat, now Hydaelin, asks us too. The song that drops in that fight is called "your answer". Hope will ever be more than despair's match. A small flicker can be enough. Thus, when we face despair incarnate at the edge of reality, confident in our answer, It's us that go into phase 2, not despair. It's our theme that takes over the soundscape after the phase transition, not hers. Hermes' failure does not rule here. The hope for a better tomorrow of everyone who's had to struggle because if Hermis' folly is what allowed live to endure, to grow strong. To avoid the fate of the utopic society we see at the end of the dead ends.
I commented before watching the video (sorry) but now that i have! This is so good! I love your narration! Thank you for your videos on EW! While I enjoyed a lot I also feel weird about some bits, so! I'm looking for different opinions on the expansion (specifically characters and story) to hopefully change my own. Long ramble ahead: Hermes makes me so angry lol The hypocrisy, and just his view on life + reasoning honestly ticked me off! Playing through EW was fun, I was so invested in the themes especially when I got to Elpis bc of my conflicting (and extremely romanticized, i admit) view on life. I get Hermes as a character but I just don't understand! C'mon Hermes! No matter your despair, you should think of others and do your best to not hurt them! Why would you want others to feel the same when you know how much it hurts... He ended up feeling a bit self-centered to me. But! I always overlook how he's almost been pushed to the breaking point when we meet him + he started in paradise, whereas some/most? of us in real life , have a rough start in life where we can only go up from! so hmmm. I feel like his story maybe needed more time and/or could've been presented a bit better. I feel like we could've seen previous (docile, maybe not very useful and y'know not violent) concepts that had been rejected and he had been forced to unmake? So that him defending the ones we do meet in-game feel like "oooohhh he's been through this so much, he doesn't see why it's not a good concept, just that THEY don't think it's 'perfect'" or maybe instead of the ones he unmakes, why not the little axolotl thingies? Because of the one that runs away? It's flawed! Easy! And maybe I'm jealous, that's why I don't understand his reasoning for not wanting to ~go back to star~ We irl can't choose to die peacefully, and I'm hoping painlessly, like they can. But he doesn't agree with that idea so instead (i know i know he's not well at this point) decides to submit everyone to a painful end... Hermes noo! You had a child to wait for!!! Her flower you promised... ; c ; And yet!! It makes sense for him to be the cause of it all bc in Greek mythology, Hermes is a psychopomp! Very nice! But at the same time, despair/depression leading Hermes to bring about the final days feels bad bc I have my pride! As someone who has lived through a pretty rough life, depression, PTSD, and health problems in general, I will always make sure to keep others in mind! If despair takes me, it will be me alone baby! Sorry for the long comment. TLDR He's written so well, it pisses me off!
Don’t apologize for dropping your thoughts, even if it’s long. I love reading everyone’s responses. And I’m glad you enjoyed this video. I feel the same as you do about him.
I don’t really think he’s wrong. The galactic self-deletion epidemic wasn’t resolved by EW. We just stopped the song of silence. The truth is that most of the galaxy’s stars saw a tragic end, many in a loss of meaning. Meteion didn’t do that, Hermes didn’t do that. He simply came to the same conclusion as Meteion. The two of them being incredibly empathetic to the suffering of others, wanted to end the suffering. In the toxified star, the end days were truly a blessing.
I said this in another comment (might’ve been yours) but yeah, some life is mostly suffering. Would those people prefer to just end it? Some would. But do we as humans have the right to choose to keep going? I think we should.
@@StoutHelm Yeah I agree each individual or at least each star should make that choice for itself. Its just not impossible to make a case for ending existence, not as impossible as we wish it were. If only 1 star out of a million had any kind of hope or joy, and the other 9,999,999 stars were just endless rebirth of suffering and misery, and Meteion's decision is either: A) Let it be, at least some people are happy; or B) End everything Its made harder by Meteion moving the goalpost during the story arc. At first she employs global thinking. A false dichotomy that she is certain of, and then at the end shes like, oh wait that was a false dichotomy all along. So its really hard to say. Its more about, what negative impact on the rest of the universe did ending the song of oblivion cause? Was the song of oblivion more good than bad? We don't get that answered so we assume that we've made the right choice. The right choice for Ethyrius. And thats where the story has a gaping hole in it. And honestly it was Hermes' whole point of the ancients deciding what is best. Death is beautiful and joyous... for the ancients. Ending the song of oblivion is good... for Ethyrius.
For me one of best moments in EW was choosing to be silent during Amons final rant. It just goes to show the WoL can choose to be all out of sympathy for a three times omnicidal manic. Some may choose to be sympathetic I chose apathy
Anyone who actually thought Hermes was one of the most evil characters in the game can't possibly have played the game, much less played through it and paid attention to the story. The only way one could come to that conclusion was if they read a slimmed-down, bare-bones summary of the game that completely lacked nuance and context. Flawed? Very. Misguided? Sure. But evil? Not even a little.
Oh oh! I wanna play devil's advocate!! I think it's pretty valid to see him as evil! He is selfish in his reasoning and even in his "experiment". I think folks that do see him as evil, also see what he didn't: the consequences of his actions/decisions, when that's his job/responsibility in Elpis (How will this affect the future of the star/how will this affect the other concepts/people etc) Throw in a lot of people's mentality: When someone does something with the knowledge that it IS bad, is when people start to lose sympathy for them and mark them as ~evil~ even if they have their reasons. Not to add his creation AND abandonment of a can't-help-but-feel-the-emotions-of-others-to-the-point-it-drives-them-crazy, child-like bird girly that he supposedly viewed not as a familiar, but a person (but also an experiment) Idk I can see it. Personally, I view him as a real bad scientist with a curious soul and sweet/empathetic nature BUT beaten down by depression and his circumstance. (i mean we could theorize about nature vs nurture w Amon and Funny Daniel but nah) He's not pure evil imo.
If you look at character themes, Hermes is a similar juxtaposition to Graha. Both have a duty and a faith to uphold with hopes that seem to be crushed every step of the way, but where graha remained confident in his faith in the WoL, Hermes fell into his narcissistic trait and, wanting to be proven right at all costs, would make all that he had a duty to pay the ultimate price
It’s the intro for the chains of promathia expansion for Final Fantasy XI. I don’t remember the exact name but if you search the soundtrack for that expansion, it’s the very first track.
I don't agree with choices but his sentiment is a fair and very valid criticism of the arrogance of the Ancients culture and attitude towards other lifeforms
I dunno. I don't think I can bring myself to really cast aside what he did. During the entire cutscene where he allowed Meteion get away, all I could think about was the kid that got transformed into a monster only to get stepped on and killed... in front of his father. And then I think about all the people of old Etheirys. All the life extinguished because of him. And all of the, well, despair wrought in the sundered Etheirys. And the despair in the shards. It doesn't really matter what his mindset or intentions were. Meteion sang the song, but Hermes was the one responsible for so many deaths.
Tbh hermes killed the story of ff14 for me, it was probably a time thing ( they couldnt keep u in elpis forever) but what he did felt so nonsensical and rushed.(maybe that was the point) he loves all life until his bird waifus go to some shitty worlds (not every world mind u, just a couple) and then decides to put humanity thru the great filter to see what happens?? Im sorry but emet selch was to good of a villian with excellent motivations for me to look at hermes as anything more than a psychopath and an idiot. Dynamis on the whole felt very forced and bs
They are. I made the distinction in the video because there are three identities he operates under in the story. Only two souls between Hermes and the sundered Amon.
I fondly remember when they asked the msq writer what her favorite character was and she answered Fandaniel. halve my fc lost their mind cause absolutely everyone hated Fandaniel pre Endwalker
So many people hate heremes. Im glad someone else sees that heremes is wrong but it came from a place of legitimacy or at least questions that needed answererd. Not necessarily about life but about the ancients. Some of his questions are valid "we create these beings and then judge them?" Etc. But his pain, solitude, and dealing with no one taking him seriously/ no confidence in himself set him down a path that caused the very pain and suffering to all he held dear. It is very tragic and a lot of people just dont see it.
For me his action is bad, but without his doubt in humanity[Ancient], world will reach to perfection and end like Dead Ends zone 3. in that time no one can answer his question. Most flawed thing is reports from Meteion. That can make Ancient's mind conflict, because live is flawed that answer conflict their point [to reach perfection]. still... no one have chance to listen full report, that why her character is the most depression. even Venat after listen some report her mind start to conflict try to find answer like Hermes, but different she not give up to despair. end of her time she finally get it, because tales from future[WoL] is reason to decide and sunder a world let the circle continue, she remains to guide them help them and let humanity in present prove their self. [of cause she have backup plan... abandon star...] key to make Meteion change her mind is tales of WoL on the source, and 1st shard, that people on still have hope remains even near their end. and yes, main key to make tales of WoL is Hydaelyn[Venat], and fragments of old world[Ascians, ruins, tales, moon etc.] in the end answer can find in Etheirys present time after sundered. That's mean without tragedy of old past we will never find answer for present humanity. So is worth? Of cause we live in present time, in our PoV this is worth. but yes... without sundered we will never live, no present... and their continue to reach perfection or wait until someone start to question and tragedy again. To begin, We first must see the end. But I'm fear, about future.... If time is flat circle and unchangeable.... so.... 8th Calamities can still happen then? Welp... lets see future then.
In hindsight, putting the most empathetic Ancient in charge of the facility responsible to creating and ending life that doesn't meet their standards wasn't the smartest idea.
I was so angry at him. His stance of: let us be judged by MY creation, even though I hate it when I have to decide if someone lives or dies. The sheer audacity of him even after Emet pointed out that the question he asked might have been to difficult for Meteion. And no: his reason of despair is not an excuse for genocide of millions of people. Wasn’t a good reason for Emet and will never be a good reason for him.
Hermes acting like the rest of his people. He was just as bitter about it too, as the voice actor portrayed. It was more of a "How do you like it?" To Emet-Selch. Or "I'll act like an Elpis overseer should. Wait, me and my people are in the category "life" too. Why should we be exempt?"
Are you under the impression that the story framed Hermes as correct or excused his actions in anyway? Yes they didn't make him a black and white villain but that doesn't translate to "he's excused for what he did." Believe it or not terrible people are motivated to do terrible things by their own reasoning and often from noble or seemingly harmless intentions. They think they are the hero but the are so flawed as people that they choose the wrong means to an end.
Didn't help that you had the Ancient's cavalier thoughts on their own creation magics feeding into Hermes' own uneasiness with their philosophy to begin with. Folks like Emet-Selch and those that Venat chastised before her transformation highlight that incredibly well.
Is Hermes a villain at all? Without him all life in the universe may have been extinguished. He saw the flaws in the Ancients society and sought a solution. Without his setting up a "determination" and offering his challenge to find meaning in life it's hinted at that the ancient society would go the way of Ra-la. Midgardsomar said that Eorzea was the last hope in the universe. Every other star had succumbed to despair (albeit some may have been hastened to their end by Meteion). Because of his question and challenge Venat was able to forget the people of our star into beating despair and rekidle hope across the universe.
Hermes had my sympathy, right up until the point where he decides that everybody else should live, or in this case die, regardless of their feelings. He didn't ask, didn't even question anyone else as to their wishes, or even bother to suggest that they think about the way they were treating their creations, whether sentient or not, as disposable...Or even to find out if there were those that weren't doing so. Instead, he judges the whole of the world, the whole of mankind, and sentences them (and every other living thing in the universe!) to die! That's awfully damned high handed of him, if you ask me. What right does he have to be solo judge, jury and creator of the executioner? What right does he have to determine whether someone else's life is worth living?...That to die is better when there is no point to living in a universe where eventually everyone dies, where even the universe itself has an end? (Nevermind the span of time between then and such an end, or that living in and of itself is the point!) And when they themselves believe it is worth living? And, he's even more cruel to his own creations, banishing them to the edge of the universe instead of letting them...Empaths with the minds of children...come back home to the one place, Etheirys, that ISN'T drowning in despair! What an awful father! Of course, I'm not all that impressed with Hydaelyn herself. The despair doesn't catch everyone during the final days, but the renegade creations of those who are, take out many of those who didn't succumb. The survivors, well, when they decide to offer their own lives, she lets them, but think about offering the living aether of plants and things in exchange for the ones sacrificed, well, sunder the whole lot of them!
To become evil meaning to remove yourself morally rights and accept the truth that you have reached the conclusion of your expectations. No more hope and dream. That’s why reality is a disappointment to ppl that like Hermes. Do the things nobody care then nobody take you seriously on top of complaining that you’re disturbing them. Sometimes, ppl cross the line that they don’t even know why and how it’s happened but it is there. Knowing too much but understand so little. It’s a hard life.
where is it said that fandaniel is tempered by zodiark? the loporrits explicitly state that because of their good creation magics a "being on the scale of zpdiark might tug juust a little bit" so it seems like sorta clear that they weren't actually tempered. they even say that the tempering aspect was intentionally added to the primals by ascians
Right, but Emet-Selch himself states during Shadowbringers that the convocation was under Zodiark’s influence even if it isn’t full on tempering. Emet doesn’t have a history of lying. I covered this in a later video but it probably deserves it’s own because it’s definitely confusing.
@@StoutHelm thats true, i did actually remember that while writing the comment. I guess i sorta ignored it back then via the "hes just lying" aspect but that's true, emet doesnt really lie to us ever. I suppose if anything, it might've been a sort of retcon when they made endwalker but yes its quite odd
It is weird, and I’d chalk it up to the villain lying if Emet hadn’t stated before he’s above deception. He’s also got a proven track record even if he’s a bad dude.
@@StoutHelm i think actually that there was some hints, though this might've been more of a coincidence or fantheory, that hydaelyn had also tempered us, which is why we are immune to tempering, and ifrit asks if we are "claimed by another", but EW states clearly that the blessing of light was a spell purpose made before hydaelyn so its sort of hard to say how luch of EW they had locked down previously
Hermes was basically the personification of the well-known saying, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
How did I not think of this when scripting? You’re exactly right.
That was exactly the first thing I thought when I saw where the story was going with him and Meteion.
It truly does. Ironic how the kindest man in the universe was responsible for an act of genocide of the highest order.
Hermes was a democrat
Thinking about the Kairos and how it affected Emet. Emet never truly forgot Hermes's question about the worth of measures of mankind. That's probably the reason that Emet (Hades) is the the only ascian that we actually know of that actually lives a whole life amongst man kind seeing if mankind is in fact worthy of inherent the star.
What can I say? Emet is goated.
@@StoutHelm indeed of all the ascians he was the only one that took an interest in modern man.
Hermes still live eventhough he doesn’t remember anything. That means he’s still who he is and Emet learn a lot from that.
Emet completely forgot, because of Kairos. He even says so when the WoL summons him in Ultima Thule. "I bid them remember, but _I'm_ the one who had forgotten. A right fool you've made of me, Hermes..." The reason why Emet decided to take interest in modern people, is because he saw how the WoL and their friends had bested Nabriales, Lahabrea and that other Ascian at the end of Heavensward without using Hydaelyn's help, and saw how the WoL succeeded in defeating and absorbing the first Lightwarden and wanted to test them to see if they were truly good enough to consider being worthy of anything. I would also like to think Emet was probably thinking "direct confrontation with the WoL is probably unwise, seeing what they did to Lahabrea and Nabriales. But, Emet let his pride get the better of him, and wound up sharing the same fate as the aforementioned Ascians.
@@Dhalin Emet-Selch had lived thousands upon thousands of lives among the sundered before the WoL was even born, so it wasn't the defeat of Lahabrea that piques his interest. He's actually teasing when he claims his reason for wanting peace is because he thinks we'll defeat him in battle. He doesn't think there is the slightest chance of that happening. He recognizes the WoL's soul and doesn't want to kill the sundered version of his friend. It's only after we fail to contain the light and are doomed to turn into a sin eater as far as he's concerned does he completely lose it and things devolve into a round of fist-a-cuffs.
As someone who, for pretty much my entire adult life has struggled with depression, Hermes was a character I very quickly empathized with when first meeting him on Elpis. I can't even fault him for breaking the way he did... there is more to depression than just the external stimulus that feeds it... there's an internal aspect of it too... something beyond the control of anyone, without therapy and medication.
And yes, he reincarnated as a completely different person in Amon. I mean he is animated, flamboyant... his every line delivered with a theatrical flourish that is the complete opposite of Hermes' more reserved demeanour. Amon also saw cruelty even worse than what Hermes did. The kind of sickening entertainment that amused the Allaghans makes the Ancients' euthanizing of rejected concepts look all the more humane by comparison. It's no wonder Amon, when bestowed with all of the memories of all of his incarnations, Hermes in particular would look at it all and want to burn it all to the ground... especially after he resurrected Xande and Xande came back as a nihilistic wreck of a man and not the glorious Emperor he once was.
None of this makes me sympathetic to his cause, of course. Even in my darkest times, I prefer life over death, and I get to thinking of the whole point of Hydaelyn sundering the star (beyond weaking Zodiark to imprison him, of course)... in living such perfect utopian lives, the Ancients lacked the strength to push through the darkness and despair. This point is hammered home hard when Hydaelyn insists that we fight her, so she can test our strength and resolve and know whether or not we have what it takes to look upon the darkest despair of all and still have the will to press on.
The best villains are the ones who are somewhat sympathetic regarding how they think and feel about the situation, despite their goals being against everything that is good and true. Emet-Selch and Fandaniel are both that top tier kind of villain.
Well, someone darkest hours might be normal to someone else entirely.
Things can get into extreme when you’re getting tricked by everyone else. That’s a different story though. Hermes is just the first character of this type. 7.0 gonna introduce more ironically uncanny villains.
On the base level, you can get through depression until depression get you back in a surprise way.
Beautifully well written and well put Jeff. I wholeheartedly agree.
In a way, Amon and Fandaniel echo Meteion in that they all can blame Hermes for what he did to them.
That is incredibly well written and I think anyone who went through any form of depression would tear up reading you like I did.
Fantastic post, Jeff,.
Honestly, part of the tragedy of Fandaniel is that both his incarnations as Hermes and Amon are truly very similar at the core. It was evident in Elpis that he always had the potential to turn into someone like Amon (given the "right" circumstances), which he did millenias later. With countless lifetimes since the sundering, it's no wonder that as a soul he expresses himself differently, yet he always succumbs to despair in different, yet similar ways, and struggles to find the answers to his question every time.
Ironically, him rejecting his past identity as Hermes only drove him further down a path he realized he didn't truly want at the end. It's shown quite brilliantly with the juxtaposition of his memories as Hermes+his memories as Amon, while he's having a breakdown, because in the end they're part of the same "whole" entity who keeps struggling again and again and again.
But it was already way too late, which is why one of the choices the wol can select is that they'll help him next time. It's all that there's left to do.
Another few things to notice that’s different between Hermes and Amon. Hermes is more gentle and reserved. Amon is incredibly theatrical and flamboyant. Even in choice of magic. Hermes is an expert in wind magics, not so devastating. While Amon uses more of the destructive magics that are fire, ice and lightning aspected. They are similar, but most definitely distinct individuals.
All excellent points.
@@StoutHelm Its like he started as a White Mage. White Mages use wind magic (Aero). When he becomes Amon after the sundering, he changes into a Black Mage. As we saw, White and Black magic existed in the Ancients' time, as Emet uses Black Magic when he fights Hermes.
I think it's best summarized by how Hythlodaeus' refers to you: "New old friend", and also noting that while you're not living your life as Azem anymore since you've reincarnated, "Nethertheless, you are you". Also best examplified with how he worded his and Emet's farewell in japanese: "I'll pray so that we meet again, even if we each take a different form". The core of "you" is the same, but the form/shape you take changes over time, along with your experiences. It's similar to growing up, G'raha Tia's speech about all of that in Ultima Thule was interesting and concluded with "no one really knows what defines you in the end", you're similar to a whole package.
Hermes and Amon are the same "him", yet their experiences shaped them completely differently in their respective lifetimes. You can't completely separate them, they're a whole package of the same being, which you can really see at the end of Fandaniel's tale, but you can also see how similar yet different they are to one another.
@@saitouhajime3 The imagery also helps when you consider the fact that Hermes wields a Caduceus. There really is an uncanny parallel of how white mages use Aero, Hermes in RL Greek Mythology's symbol was a Caduceus, and how the Caduceus is oftentimes used as a symbol for medicine, and how Hermes the Greek deity would naturally be associated with the wind element.
I feel bad for Hermes; he's the "black sheep" of the Ancients and honestly wanted to find answers and better Etheirys. But in the end he failed and lost everything no matter how hard he tried 😢
I think if he had focused on trying to change society as opposed to "It's all gotta go" maybe we'd be in a different place.
@@StoutHelm you know alot of ff14 takes alot from the real world situation we live in.
Imagine you are the anti-war advocate of any race or any nations and try to change that in the real world for decades.
That person would be completely broken and possibly go mad learning how shitty humanity is.
"Who are you to decide our fate, to declare to decree we live or die?" These words where the catalyst for Hermes jumping off the slippery slope since he's been doing that for so much time it was starting to break him, You can see the unspoken words written on his eyes and expression during that moment "That you would say such thing, just proves how much of an hypocrite we really are...."
Yep, that was the big moment where you knew where the story was headed.
Hermes, overall, could be described as "the gentlest soul" when it comes down to it. We haven't seen anyone with anywhere near as much love for life in general. The fact that he was put into the position of constantly having to see it destroyed is... While he's absolutely responsible for the Final Days, it's hard to call him an outright "villain" or a "monster". His mental state was definitely declining throughout that part of the MSQ and the fact that *nobody* caught it is honestly depressing. Things could've been *so* much better if anyone caught him and offered support before it was too late. Hell, the scene with Meteion and the Elpis blooms is probably the only time he actually felt close to someone or that anyone could relate to him.
The best written villains are always the ones who are in circumstances we can empathize with.
I think Emet more or less noticed that Hermes mental state is declining, and attempted to help him by asking Hermes to be Fandaniel so Hermes could leave Elpis.
I actually more surprise that both Venat and Hythlodaeus pretty much just let Hermes mental problem to his own.
Meanwhile Emet did try to understand what Hermes was getting into, and telling Hermes to leave Elpis by became Fandaniel. Not really solve the core problem, but at least Emet DID try to reach Hermes while the Venat and Hythlodaeus don't.
I think part of the issue was that *no one* could help him. He was estranged with a heavy depression in a world where everything was almost perfect. Everyone who passes by the Elpis flowers always turns them white, and rarely ever any dark colors. We were the only ones who could turn said flower into a dark one.
In a twisted sense, we were the only ones Hermes would relate to.
The way I understood the ancients dying after completion of one’s purpose made me think that they actually commit some form of medically assisted suicide once their job is over. Venat refused to do this after stepping down. But she was an outlier.
Venat said she believed she had more to offer the world even after stepping down as Azem. And yes, that's how I interpreted their deaths as well.
I assumed it was them using their creation magics to just undo their corporeal forms... similar to what they apparently do with their creations that are flawed... and what we see Emet do to himself and Hyth once the path to the Endsinger's nest is opened.
@@henrywesterman493 this is what i thought too
It's funny how Hermes always end up always following a another person goal or resolve. Hermes just listen to Meteion and how the song of oblivion is the answer, and instead of trying to get his own answer, he just accept it. Amon felt a lack of purpose in life, and the moment he manage to revive Xande back from death, he starts following Amon and his quest for conquest to bring back the golden days of Allagan, but something happens..Xande realize everything is meaningless and everything he makes will be turned into nothing and instead of saying anything, he does what Hermes did and just accepted Xande answer and starts doing what his emperor wanted (destroy the world).
When the ascian comes back, instead of betraying them or to do anything, he follows his ancients overlord, until all of them are dead. He has nobody to follow he goes back to his originally goal, which is of course following Meteion and Xande goal...oblivion. Hermes and Amon was living on borrowed resolved.
He implies in one of his conversations with Zenos that he only acted in line with the Ascians because Elidibus and Emet kept him on a tight leash. He already seemed to be under way with setting up the Telophoroi by the time he realized Elidibus was gone (which he realized because Elidibus hadnt shown up to shut it down--implying he's tried this sort of thing behind their backs before)
Yoshi P actually mentioned this in a live letter - Hermes is like social media and he listens to everyone else while being unable to make up his mind.
You could even say his despair was sending him... "to the edge"
13:16
Amon: 😢💀
Music: 🕺🎸
A wonderful video! I'd like to add another bit to this for extra context: In the Aitiascope the shade of Amon admits that while he as Hermes intended to erase his memories with Kairoz, all he did was burn them deeper into his soul. So all his life as Amon, he was tormented by dreams he couldn't truly figure out until later, nightmares of his life as Hermes that one day in Elpis. Which he only later started finding out were memories when he became Fandaniel. Can you imagine just how traumatizing that must have been?
Also, a personal observation: Never once has he as Hermes, Amon or Fandaniel personally acted to find the happiness or meaning of life he wished to find. He sent out Meteion and her sisters, he worked with the Convocation of Fourteen, he clung to his work in the Allagan Empire and later on Xande, he stayed mostly dormant in the Ascian council and even relied on Zenos (but mostly used him tbh) to guide his efforts to end the world. Every single time, he stood by the side of someone else. The most personal decision he ever made was to drop into that hole on the moon and end Zodiark. Every other moment in his life, he looked toward others to give him purpose, as evidenced by trying to please even ZENOS by setting up a dinner-date. He was incapable of functioning without external input driving him onward. No wonder he doubted himself in the end.
Great point about him being haunted by his decisions even in his following lives.
Not only did he find out that those nightmares were memories, but when he was given the memory crystal of fandaniel, he also remembered things differently than the crystal showed him. Because the crystal was made with the memories of the fandaniel that had forgotten about mietion and the warrior of light, but he himself remembered everything. So while he was given the memories of a hermes who was desperately trying to fight against the final days with the 14, he had always remembered his time as a hermes who fought against members of the 14 in order to bring about the final days. The conflict between these two identities would do massive damage upon anyone's mind.
Its really hard for me to classify Hermes as evil, as many people easily do. From my perspective, he was an extremely gentle soul who cared very deeply for his creations, as opposed to his counterparts. His sole mistake, which led to the Final Days, was refusing to hand over Meteion. He does not condemn his people to suffering, that I feel is a misconception. He is challenging them. Sure, this may sound like I am re-framing it (sophistry, as they say xD), but he does not do what he does so they can suffer - that's not his intention. This challenge is to put their superiority, their right to choose, to the test. He is turning the table and putting the Ancients in the shoes of the lives they so easily create and destroy. And they failed spectacularly. If he was truly evil, he would have accepted Meteion's offer to join her. But he didn't, he chose to fight for Etheirys. He did not take the cowards way out. He knew the trial he was putting the world through, and then decided to fight for his people. He's...just more complex than many realize. Such a fantastic character in my opinion.
There is a gray area here for Hermes to fall in. Amon however, is certainly evil. His intention is to destroy the world, not to challenge it. He doesn't care about the people on Etheirys, not even a little bit. What he did to Garlemald was proof of that. There is no underlying cause to it. Pure and simple, he wants to end all lives because he believes living is meaningless - and he uses Xande as justification of his action.
Of course, Hermes actions are indefensible.
I agree. He’s not evil and that what makes his story as a villain so compelling.
Hermes was right wasn't he? 2:29 Isn't that what would have been what happened to Ehteirys? Once they "perfected" the star it would all be over. Their striving for "perfection" is the problem with ancient society.
@@toychristopher partially. They lived such privileged lives, they didn't know terror or horror or fear or pain. Despair. It so violently shook them that they didn't have the capability to cope or even the means to walk forward. They were willing to over up their lives to escape their pain. Death was never what scared them, as Emet said, we celebrate their lives when they CHOOSE to return to the planet. So death wasn't what scared the Ancients so. The pain of losing a loved one so abruptly, violently, completely. It wasn't like their souls were given back to the lifestream. As we later find out, when they turn, everything is consumed, even their aether, they very being. Nothing is left of them.
Venat so no other way to help the people of Ethyris other than to sunder them, to splinter their souls, to make them forget by sundering their souls, and the shards. Maybe in some way, she wanted people to remember (the Echo being born in those who witness some kind of great cataclysm) but ultimately, it was only a small bit, meant to remind us that we can still go on living, even during the worst of catastrophes.
And we proved Her right. But even she knew, it would never be easy. For her, for us, especially for Emet.
Hermes is not evil for the creation of Metion, but on not adhereing to other subject testing protocol and the decision to use Kairos. And if he suceeded in wiping everyone's memory, then he would have probably destroyed everyone in the story. He basically invented an AI that started going rogue. It does not really matter what his intention is as what he did was akin to putting everyone in a war against something they could not even see. Its also judgment of an entire society for the actions of the rulers (the convocation). He basically weaponized meteion to terrorize an entire society. Meteion for her part even could tell it might goes this wrong and was trying to avoid giving the report to Hermes. Hermes is really the true villain as he made himself jury and executioner. Meteion is simply the tool that Hermes uses to attack society.
This is even more apparent when you realize that he does not really decide things and instead lashes out with emotions. Him feeling things are wrong and deciding to judge society is how a villain would operate. In fact, its not any different then the motivations of Doctor Cid from FF12.....which is a very comparable antagonist. Creates a tool using ancient technology, judges that society should be different and thus uses the tool on society.
Makes me wonder if Amon became so self loathing BECAUSE he inherited Hermes's soul, or if it was just an unfortunate coincidence to "combine" two unrelated and unfortunate beings (doubling up on despair)
Amon wanted the Alagans to steer away from its current hedonistic ways (this is where his despair started) and resurrect Xande so he would lead them to a new glorious age. Xander was someone that Amon admired and Xande was very nihilistic after his resurrection.
It's also worth noting that the memory erasing machine he used can not completely erase memories. Once the soul returns the the aetherial sea, the memories return. So he also had the conflict of remembering fragments of his life as hermes, and when he was given the memory crystal of fandaniel, it was as if the memories in the crystal were from a different person than who he actually remembered being.
The crystal gave him the memories of fandaniel trying desperately to help the 14 prevent the final days, but his soul gave him the memories of *causing* the final days, which only drove the despair in even deeper.
I thought this as well. What happens if you have the soul of someone who loves everything and you are pushed to commit atrocities from the reinforcement of society? It feels the cognitive dissonance literally broke him. There was something about the cut scenes, its almost like i could feel the dissociation when dealing with the people enjoying the torment. But that might just be me
I really love how the writers of this game made their villains more than one dimensional. Each of us can understand and feel empathy for Hermes even though his soul mission was to destroy life.
It makes for a fun story to dissect!
I find Hermes to be the least evil of the Ancients. Instead of a condescension of what his peers consider "lesser beings", he values all forms of life. To many of the Ascians, other forms of life, whether arcane or with soul, are a mere form of entertainment. It is strangely similar to Amon sewing the bull's head on another Allagan to entertain his own peers in a failing civilization. This similarity is driven home by Hythlodaeus when he describes all the constructs submitted on a shark. It is further rammed home by Venat's speech about every paradise having shade. Also, there is a sidequest in Amaurot (SB) where the reconstructed Ascian laments what will happen when his fellows run out of ideas for constructs. Most Ascians will tell you that they act to benefit the star, but do they really? They seem to be acting for their own benefit and amusement. The true nature of Hermes is actually what Venat is trying to convince the Zodiark worshipping group to be in that symbolic sundering scene. This is reflective of his ability to turn the Elpis blooms colors other than pure white. In short, Hermes does not place a hierarchy on creatures. He values life. His peers value their own importance above all else. The idea of perfection of the star is only reflective of THEIR perfection and THEIR opinion of what that should be.
I agree with this. He saw the hubris of ancients for what it was.
If you haven't played the Pandaemonium raid series, then don't read ahead.
But
Athena is the ideology of the Ancients' taken to its logical conclusion. She as a villain exists to display to us the true feelings, albeit a most extreme version, of the Ancient mainstream consciousness. And it is not beautiful.
I think the reason why Hermes personality didn't got a grip in Fandaniel, was simply Hermes tempered his memory and erased the most important person with it....Meteon. So when Amon awoken as ascian, he perceived Hermes as completely fake and only inherited his knowledge. In certain way Amon's reason to ressurect Xande was strongly by the void in his soul. For Amon Xande was a replacement for Meteon without knowing and adopted much of his bleak philosophy. What we fought in Aitoskop was the insanity was left behind, when 2 different memories of Hermes clashed with each other and only Amon remained. Without the tempering of Hermes memories the personality of Hermes would be dominant. Which was confirmed by Fandaniel itself at the tower of Zot. Fandaniel can't be described as a psychopath, but as someone whos unbridled schizophrenia left alone too long. Without the Unsundered to control him, it was clear that he try to end his suffering and make the world pay for his suffering by dooming it. Through theatralic of a jester was the only way he could act.
The difference between Hermes and Amon/Fandaniel, Hermes despair based on his depression and guilt, while the despair of Fandaniel was his schizophrenia and that his mind fall apart without even possibilty that dying would grant atleast him peace for the simple reason that as a Ascian he was bound by Zodiark and could be ressurected. So for Fandaniel the only way he could find peace was destroying Zodiark and himself at the same time. But in the end he couldn't get even this.
Very well written comment here with more details for anyone browsing after the video.
I love this, I feel like one of the only people that really liked Hermes and felt bad for him despite all of his mistakes. Thank you for the awesome video
Thank you, I’m glad you enjoyed it.
Personally Hermes is one of my favorite or well…….oh yeah definitely after EW he and meteion(i use them in tandem) are like my favorite ff antagonists mostly because i see the point of their struggle. Despair. Despair that i relate to too much tbh. Especially as a new adult coming out of high school and with so many aspects of my life changing and etc. and wondering if ill be okay or will i lonely throughout my his journey. And most importantly why am i living or bothering with anything anymore. Disappointment in myself, others, and just how things are…it can be really suffocating so much so that it can you lead you to becoming a worst version of yourself that can harm others and most importantly, yourself. Hermes in general to me is an example of who not to become tbh and im glad FF14 gave us him and in general the whole expansion…it gave me clarity and honestly hope to keep on living.
Exactly. Compelling stories make for great villains. And we’ve all been there before. I know I have. I’m glad you’re finding the strength to push on.
@@StoutHelm thanks 💯🙂
Remember folks,Even Ancients and Gods can succumb to Depression and Depression ain't no joke.
and irl People WILL do questionable regrettable irredeemable things once their mind is broken and that's a Tragic true fact and It's really something inevitable..Now imagine if a God or an Ancient suffers the same consequences.
Hermes and Fandaniel suffers from Deep Depression and were beyond help because their minds have already been broken and it's just hard to NOT sympathize and relate with both of them,especially if you're someone who's also struggling the same path.
Now Characters like Asahi on the other hand,Can fuck right off.....
Asahi can stay dead.
‘It’s not easy to talk about depression.’ Must be the understatement of the century. I think Yoshi P’s team did a good job of approaching a delicate subject. Herme’s plight, and his reasoning and mistakes, made me angry first and foremost. I won’t go into details as it was a deeply personal reaction. But it did cause a reaction, and positive or negative, that was the point. Thank you for this video and for sharing your thoughts with us. Great work and good quality as always. 👍 Stay safe. ❤️
Mental health is super important. We gotta normalize talking about it. And thanks again, I’m glad you liked it!
@@StoutHelm - ❤️
I'm not so sure Zodiark or Hydaelyn _could_ temper. The Lopporits mention that Tempering was added to the summoning rite only when the Ascians started teaching Beast Tribes how to summon.
Which actually makes sense. Because there are Primals who get summoned who are never shown to temper things, because they weren't summoned via the Ascian-taught ritual. Susano is the primary example here; but Tsukuyomi also doesn't even try to temper, nor does Shinryu. Meanwhile in the same expansion as those three Primals we have Sri Lakshmi who quite clearly does Temper... but was summoned by a beast tribe and we can assume they were taught how to do it by Ascians.
Shiva also never tempered anyone, not even the person she was summoned into.
Emet states in Shadowbringers that Zodiark was tempering his followers, including himself. I do remember the Loppo conversation. Tempering is more of a “can” as opposed to “will” in my mind. Tempering is just a corruption of someone’s aether.
@@StoutHelm I suppose that makes sense, with the Ascian teachings coming later just making it more likely.
The Loporitts also mention that even with proper true creation magic, a being as powerful as Zodiark will still exert a "tug" on those creating him. The tempering isnt due to the process like with later primals, but rather the sheer scale of his power
@@BroadwayRonMexico Put it much better than I did, thank you.
this is why mental health care is important.
Absolutely.
Endwalker, nay, the whole game would not happen if the Ancients had a regular visits to a therapist.
there is only one quote that will i hope enlighten those who still view hermes as some mad villain. "Just because someone stumbles, loses their way doesn't mean they are lost forever"-Charles Xavier Xman Future Past.
I think if given a chance...if hermes himself followed Emet's example and "co-operated" and saw life as our WoL did and reflected on his past and now the present then the result would have been much different.
Xavier is a very wise man.
Think I mentioned this on this stream, too. When I was talking with my friends, I mentioned that Hermes, himself, was a tragic person because he cared about life. Meteion was the proof. The flawed he had was simply giving into despair… when he should of cared for Meteion and at least fight for her happiness.
Amon/Fandaniel, on the other hand, was a horrible and twisted person and the true villain for FF14 and the final days. This shard of Hermes wanted everyone to die and himself. He cared about nothing, but that goal. He got the memory back thanks to Emet… only to turn on their backs, too, when they were defeated. Then he tried to stop us again in the dungeon only to finally be defeated. I ended up choosing that we’ll find the answer together next time. Part of me still feel bad for Hermes, but also Amon was a psychopath. So it was split, but that’s exactly what he was: Pieces of himself.
Amon/Fandaniel was turned into a psychopath because of all the despair that he was walked and crawled through imo. He was never truly bad in the beginning but well yeah.
Spot on.
i think you don't give amon enough credit he was a broken man much like hermes.
I find it fascinating that the big villains in the game went down the paths they went because they felt things so deeply, just had HORRIBLE ways of coping with them.
That’s why the latest chapters of the games story are so well written. Shadowbringers too. Just really top notch material.
It makes me think of qualities of Tony Stark in Marvel, especially the MCU version... next to his hubris, his biggest problem is that he cares so deeply, TOO deeply and it drives him to do some harebrained things.
A lot of parallels to Tony.
I think since we've all fallen into despair at some point in our lives, this makes Hermes very relatable
A lot of people were pretty concerned that Fandaniel was just going to be a one dimensional maniac. It was interesting that he got fleshed out, after we already killed him.
He had a lot of depth once we got the full picture.
As a researcher, he made the rookie mistake of drawing conclusions from too small a sample size.
YES! thank you. Emet even calls him out on this.
I related to Hermes far more than i'd like to commit... But who am I to decide the fates of others. Despite how much hate fills me, it would be wrong to condemn them. But I know, that is often not the case with others.
I think we've all had those thoughts before, you're definitely not alone.
Thing is, we don't know how old Hermes is or how long he's had these pains festering in him. Could be 100 years, could be 1,000 or 10,000 or more than that. And in all that time, not a single soul reached out to him or treated his misgivings as anything more than "melodrama?" Yeah, I'd be fucked up by that too.
The thing I find with Hermes is it feels we could have helped him before things went as bad as it did.
The issue is he did so much on his own which is why I like the offer of friendship you can give. I also feel amon in the end gets the worst of the 3 outcomes. First he has "dreams" of all that happened while we were with Hermes meaning he was constantly seeing that life was meaningless, then when he tried to make the world good again (in terms of alleg good) Xade wanted to end everything. Then after all that he is approached by Emet, who gives him the memories and knowledge of who he used to be, this confirms the dream and also gives him the knowledge on how he tried to save these people. Giving him two sets of mismatched info the one that would save and try to restore the world and simultaneously the one that brought this to begin with. So the despair he had plus all the knowledge he had made him suppress everything to the point when he dies as zodiarks heart we see he enjoys how much this would displease Hermes.
I think it's kind of why Vanat is a good opposite of him, where hearing the facts earlier of how the world is, she dosnt reject it, the same when she hears of the other stars fate, she dosnt reject the despair she accepts it but also sees the answer of hope in all this despair.
You’re right, Hermes needed help. All the signs were there. But the ancients didn’t see him as someone to help, but just someone who needs to be stopped. Ancient society keeps taking Ls.
man your videos are amazing I'm getting to understand more about the characters in depth with these !! thanks alot for making these ❤️❤️
Thank you SO MUCH for the kind words. I’m really glad you’re enjoying them.
I was passing by Azys La the other day... Reminded me so much of Elpis !
Another really pretty location!
For all their talents, for all their knowledge and strength Hermes and Amon decided to create a being to find an answer to life when they could've made it themselves. That's the most depressing part, it's hard to face the world sometimes and all you want is a little push in the right direction but there are times when you need to take the step and walk forward leading those who may follow.
If he had remembered that he’s the hope for so many, he might’ve stayed on the right path. Sad story.
@@StoutHelm I wonder if that ideal actually suffocated Hermes too, considering the weight of it.
I’m not sure if it has been mentioned before, but Hermes was also affected by Kairos and had his memory wiped, he didn’t comply with the convocation while knowing about the incoming destruction and who was to blame. When Emet gave Amon Hermes’ memories the events in Ktisis were etched so deep in his brain that it all came flooding back, which, to someone like Amon, was enough to truly push him over the edge to Xande’s ideals
You're right. Broke him in so many ways.
Worst bit is nobody knew it would come this way.
If you notice, Hermes voice actually comes back for a time in that lvl89 dungeon.
It does, you’re right!
Mostly unrelated to the video, but someone on twitter posted an image where they took the main 3 ancients models and placed them in gridania's adventurers guild building.
And damn they're massive, emet almost scratches the ceiling with how tall he is
They are huge! And those necks.
I would say... Fandaniel does indeed do everything and anything to see the worlds end, but in the end it's not 'really' what he wants ( 12:49 ) It's a lashing out born from his overwhelming despair.
It's a matter of someone going full 180 when something they believe in to their very core -- is shattered and utterly undone. Hermes believed death was NOT beautiful and the very first line Zodiark delivers is how 'beautiful' the death of life on Etherys will be. He truly had become a caricature of his old self, since his old self couldn't cope with all that happened.
There's A LOT more to say about Hermes/Fandaniel and it really does show what a character he is. Ishigawa really went all out on him.
2:55 - What Hermes said here basically happened to those beings who created the final boss (Ra-La) in The Dead Ends.
Exactly!
Yes! He clearly saw the flaws in their society but they apparently had a culture where he wasn't able to discuss those flaws without being labelled as an aberration.
I believe that Azem has also reincarnated thousands of times across the shards before our WoL. Azem has probably been all of Hydaelin's chosen over the ages, with Vanat recognizing their soul and gifiting them the echo so that they become warriors of light and protect humanity. There is a hint at that on the first with the Viera tribe and their mythos of a warrior of light
A wondefully done and insightful summary. I often am left in awe at some comment in an earlier expansion that comes to mean so much more through different eyes. And if you don't see how the song 'Answers' has changed in meaning as we grew into the world, well, there is no hope for you. LOL
That song is probably worth a video on its own.
@@StoutHelm Actually, that is a great idea, from the pleas and mourning of ARR to the self sacrifice and promises of EW. Had a friend rave at Answers in the ARR trailer and I could only smile sadly as I recalled the scene that stored my heart out all over again.
Just seeing this and maybe someone has already said this, but for me I think Hermes was probably the first Ancient to suffer through depression. The weight of each creation was something he highly empathized with to the point that he personally felt like he was murdering them each time they'd get 'replaced' or 'fixed' or 'undone'. The others seeing them as just puzzle pieces to the overall world and culling what didn't fit in well enough, he saw them all as precious souls that he should do all he could to make sure they *could* fit in before that final decision came.
All that summing up to cause his overall depression in the first place, and like in the real world, it was treated dismissively. His thoughts and values by this point highly differed than the average Ancient and it resulted in him wanting to find out how other worlds did things. To find flourishing worlds with other peoples who did things differently than his own to prove, maybe to himself more than anything, that what they were doing wasn't the only way. I think that's why the reports of every other world being desolate, dead, or dying hit him so hard. It meant that their world was the only one that was doing well in a universe full of dead ones, no doubt making him feel like his problems with their society as a whole didn't have any ground when all the others that did differently were now dead.
I do agree his outburst is impossible to defend, but if at least *one* person agreed with him, it might've turned out differently.....maybe.
Edit: Posted this before finishing the video. Guess part of it is just rebuffing the same thing. Also the San d'oria music sent me back in fucking time.
If you ever keep your eyes on how incredible unnaturally long NECKS are in FFXIV and especially so the insane long necks of Ancients you will never unsee it.
Like look at them.
Look at their necks.
They are more giraffe than human.
This freaked me out a little while I was in Elpis.
Elezens.
That FF11 soundtrack *chefs kiss* 👌🏾
If you like that, you definitely need to check out that guys channel. Link is in the description. His mixes are phenomenal.
I guess that's better than being defeated by victory.
Personally, I loved Hermes from a character standpoint. Yes, he was flawed and yes he had good intentions. but he had the same question a lot of people always ask, "What is my purpose? what is the meaning of life?" and seeing someone who can ask that same question while on an island of perfection and creation, where your only limit is your imagination? It made it impossible to actually hate him; disliking his treatment towards the Meteia is a different story. I wholly wished we could've spent more time on Elpis, not to change the course of history, but just to spend more time there to be able to really think about the question ourselves while we wandered the islands of perfection.
He’s one of the better written villains of the story for sure. They did a good job with his role.
He WANTED to do good. But he ended up doing the most evil thing of anyone in the FFXIV universe. As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
I wouldn’t say evil, at least on Hermes part, just reallt nisguided. Amon and Fandaniel? Totally evil.
@@StoutHelm When he told Meteion to join her sisters and destroy the universe, and basically said "people will find a way to survive if they're worthy, now I'm wiping everyone's memories", I view that as pretty evil.
@@StormsparkPegasus it’s not so black and white but that was pretty harsh and arrogant of him. I think he truly wanted for all life to have a chance but he wasn’t in the right place mentally at this point. Totally consumed by the report.
@@StormsparkPegasus The point is that an ant is as important to him as a human being, he doesn't even see himself in a particular special way, otherwise he would have joined Meteion. Instead, he himself also participated (unknowingly after losing his memory) in the test that he himself initiated.
Does this make him evil? Yes and no.
His depression was born from the insane habits that the ancients had in abusing the magic of creation and the latter did not see the problem to the point of not understanding that someone like Hermes is the last person to be put in charge of Elpis.
@@StoutHelmwiping out life is not evil? Ok.
I don't know why everyone is so harsh on Hermes. A lot of people have been dealing with similar thoughts.
But none of them caused an apocalyptic event. He had a chance to tard wrangle Metion but instead he help her escaped which resulted the final days. Let's also not forget he caused another apocalyptic event by bringing back Xande leading to the fourth calamity. This guy is responsible for the destruction of two advance civilization.
We can all relate to being in a dark place mentally but it’s the choices you make in response to those negative emotions. Hermes chose wrong… a few times. Haha
I’m personally not as harsh on Hermes, but I do acknowledge his role in the greatest threat to the world. It doesn’t take a bad person to do bad things.
@@acgearsandarms1343 I disagree, It doesn't take a bad person to do bad things. He was overwhelmed by despair.
@@hotstinkytaco Because they CAN'T. Seriously that is unbelievably optimistic to think that not a single person would burn the world if they could. That no one in the Meteia, Hermes's or Amon's position, authority and power would do that if they had the capacity to subjugate the planet to despair.
Your tying together these threads makes for a wonderfully sad tale. A pity SE would never authorize a writer to pen it as a complete story [a true author, not a game writer]. Your explanation was spot-on.
I do think the current writers are doing a pretty solid job, but I wouldn’t mind seeing some novels or short stories in the universe like WoW does.
Beautiful depiction of life and death's sweet embrace.
Keep these up man, been binging your shit. Super good content.
Thank you friend, I’m shooting for one new vid every week or so.
Tbf I don’t consider any ascian as truly evil, they were just trying to do the best with what they had, even at the detriment of others
You mentioned in the video that all primals are capable of enthralling people, including Hermes. I thought the Loporits corrected this misunderstanding when they stated that the Ancients creation magic had no such criteria for Primal summoned (Such as Ifrita and Azems volcano escapades)
There's conflicting information, and it boils to who you believe is more correct. The Loporits or Emet-Selch. Honestly this merits a video on its own.
In my opinion, there was one thing that could have stopped Hermes from ever going over the edge. And that is seeing what the result would be of an ancient who had seen enough being forced 'to stay'. His young age was literally what made him so vulnerable in the first place. He could not see how 'living forever' is more a curse then a blessing. Something his later reincarnations actually learned and drove him insane.
Hoo man I am loving these! I'm thankful for these types of videos since Endwalker gave *so much info* it's hard to register everything in such an epic story.
But man I really understand Hermes, thankfully not to a T but... I do get where he is coming from even if I inherently disagree with his choices. The man was a lonely one and he sought answers no one had because they were different from his understanding of the world. Yes his shards were insane and yet... Even now I want to offer a hand to them, well perhaps not Fandaniel but definitely Amon and Hermes. Just show them that, they're not alone and that... Searching for answers is not inherently wrong but it shouldn't be by his lonesome because it's not for the faint of heart.
They both were desperate man, trying to cling in what gave their life meaning knowing deep down their "goals" were never theirs. They sheparded what others decided life was worth because it was all they had. A tragedy by definition.
Edit: it also makes me think about the live letter and how in a few of these characters, kindness is their undoing.
I think how much you love these characters depends on how much you can empathize with them or just understand where they're coming from. Kindness is a boon, but it's easy to forget how the lonely it can be for those who gift it. But it's just like Alphinaud said! "We've not come this far from passing judgment. It is by opening our hearts and understanding their plight that we've moved forward. Yet understanding is not acceptance. And the moment you feel falling into despair you can count on me to lift you up, just as I have counted on you before. "
The live letters are so interesting. So much to unpack in them, especially the revelations about Venat.
6:48 Are those Ancients really part of the Convocation? I honestly saw them as regular people who wanted things to go back to the way things were before.
That was just a metaphorical vision of the events that happened, it wasn’t a literal depiction. It’s confusing.
Your bgm was bothering me as I couldn't figure out wat it wa from. Until I realized it was Sadoria. So good.
I’m trying to include the songs on screen when they first begin so you won’t have to wonder!
Great video stout, keep them coming.
Thank you brother!
In the end, the Ascians, born from and living by aether, are all defeated by dynamis, by their emotions : They believed that their motivation was towards their function as part of the Ancient society, but it is only when we confront them directly that they start realizing that the love of their friends and relatives was what mattered most to them :
Emet-Selch's despair was indeed caused by the shattering of his belief in his perfect, unchallenged utopia, yes, but as we experience throughout ShB with him constantly putting the WoL to the test looking for a trace of Azem inside them and Hythlodaeus being the only ghost in Amaurot that is really "alive", it was the loss of his two best friends that really broke him. Once we prove to him that the soul of Azem is still alive even in this sundered existence, he entrusts the future to us.
Elidibus believed that he was needed because he is Elidibus, the mediator, that he acts because it is his role, but sacrificing his life to become Zodiark - fulfilling his mission - did not bring him peace, because his beloved friends were still hurting, so he withdrew from the primal to become the Warrior of Light in order to bring them hope, but we had to remind it to him for the conflict to end.
As for Fandaniel, we don't really see him before he became lucid about the cruelty of how both the Ancients and the Allagan empire treated life, be it human or not, but it is indeed his love for the species he nurtures that drove him to despair, and especially his love for Meteion, that he chose over the fate of the entire Amaurotine civilization. It is to her that we had to give our Answers instead of Hermes directly, but the point remains the same.
Mitron didn't even really care about the Rejoining, and was fine with the sundered world as long as he remained with his lover Loghrif, and even though Lahabrea didn't really get his personality explored as an Ascian, the fact that we're now getting a story about his difficult relationship with his son and late wife and helping him via confrontation realize his own emotions makes me think that even he was probably driven more by Ericthonios, whatever his fate might be, than getting the Lahabrea Institute and Pandemonium back in order.
I love your analysis videos on FFXIV characters! If you'd be interested in being a guest on the Popoto Pub FFXIV Podcast, I'd love to discuss the FFXIV story with you there.
This sounds like it could be a lot of fun!
I see Hermes as a symptom rather than the disease upon his people. If not for Hermes, eventually there might be another one just like him. The Japanese voiceover also gives you this feeling that he's nice, and a bit far too nice for his own good, which led to him doing the unpredictable things he did. No one answered his cry for help. I'd even say that although Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus are good folk, they don't hit as close to home as Hermes for me. But I guess that's the point in FF14, you're not supposed to look back at the Ancients and want to be like them. We have to accept our flaws, and embrace our suffering to make the most of our very fragile and decidedly mortal lives.
To cheat this debate a little, Ishikawa actually pointed out that the fate of the Ancients was to end up like the Ra-La race. So what Hermes said about "what happens when we reach perfection" is actually more accurate than he knows.
And just now in 6.15 (avoiding too much spoilers), we have a side quest with a different perspective that suggests their society is flawed despite its paradisiac nature which ultimately led to its downfall.
A bit off-topic, I've had experience with depression myself, very common stuff, the kind that knocks the will to live out of you as you drown at the bottom of the world and gaze into a sky far too blue and oppressive. I'd say that having the will to ask for help and abandon my stupid pride to claw my way back to a state of functioning human being made me a far better person than I had been, and even then there are such kind souls out there that it's absurd to not be humbled.
I really do get Venat's message now, but I daresay before I won against my depression, with my hubris and lack of empathy, I would have thought the message overly sentimental, foolish, and boring. It takes a more mature mind to really enjoy the writing of FF14, and I'm glad that I've walked far enough along my path to understand things, the fool that I am.
I just recently found your channel! I love your breakdowns! Can you do one on Dynamis?
Thank you! And that sounds like a good topic to cover!
Really enjoying these videos!
Glad you like them! More will keep coming.
The thing with Hermes is that he didn't start as evil. He ultimately was trying to do good in his own way, albeit in a rather, for lack of a better word, twisted way. The problem is that at some point, when questioning if he or his people are wrong, never once does he think both are possibilities. His (understandably) darker mindset and depression wasn't helping things at all. That whole thing with Meteion might very well have been the breaking point. He had basically become the embodiment of a question from Kefka Palazzo. *"Why create when it'll only be destroyed? Why cling to life, knowing you have to die?"* It was too much for him. Being split into 14 different pieces almost certainly didn't help, now becoming a twisted man keen on killing everyone and everything on Etheirys.
Still not the MOST evil character though. That I'd say belongs to the person whose body he possessed, Asahi. Or van Varro in the Weapon Trials. Comparing to those two, Hermes is...well I'll call him the lesser bad.
I agree with this. He didn’t have evil intentions, he just went off the deep end and never recovered.
Zodiark does not temper, due to the scale of his summoning there is a "slight pull", but it's not tempering like we know it. The tempering process was added into the creation magic the ascians passed to the sundered in order to destabilize the shards. The lopporits explain that proper use of Creation magic does not temper, and they prove this correct when they have the best tribes summon their primals during the take-off cutscene.
Emet selchs throw-away dialog in Shadowbrings has him literally admit he could be lying 'and we'd never know'
Fandaniel also cannot be tempered. He's a sundered ascian, which means the Echo is a requirement. Those with the Echo cannot be tempered.
Also, they did sacrifice more ancients in order to restore the star. It wasn't to 'restore it to what it was' they sacrificed themselves to 'restore life to the star'
The final days had left the planet in ruin, they needed to fix it. When they were going to sacrifice all the NEW life on Etheirys was when Hydaelyn was created.
Thanks for pointing out the error with the sundering. Did some research after reading this comment and I’ll be correcting it In the next video on Venat.
A character such as this would have been exceedingly easy to mess up, ultimately I have to say Hermes really worked for me, tho I did have my reservations innitially. For one I thought the descent into madness was quite sudden and too complete, but that is simply from our perspective and as I had time to look back after leaving Elpis it did click for me. Both him and Meteion are really well done, it shows how easily twisted peoples emotions are and the lengths and extremes they can go to, especially when not confronted by anything else.
I felt for Hermes. He was basically proof that the world unsundered was not as perfect as Emet remembered. If only they had some quality therapy in Elpis, maybe he wouldn't have gone down such a path. I definitely don't think he was evil. Just flawed and very depressed, struggling with an existential crisis.
On a lighter note, I love the San d'Oria music in the background. Brings back happy memories of FFXI.
I love this content. Thank you.
Thank YOU. Glad you’re enjoying it.
I wanted to clarify something: Zodiark cannot temper anyone, and neither can Hydaelyn. Only primals summoned with the desire to force others to believe in them can temper anyone, and that additional caveat was something Ascians came up with in order to make the summonings endless.
What we know as summoning primals is nothing more than a modern version of creation magicks. The reason half the Ascians sacrificed themselves is the same reason beast tribes need crystals: sources of aether. But to make a gigantic creation with the power to manipulate the laws of reality would need more than just a few crystals or one ancient's aether. Moreover, like any creature, Zodiark needs aether (food) and so it requires an enormous amount of aether.
The people in favor of Zodiark (not tempered, I remind you) come to the conclusion that they will continue to create things and foster proliferation of creatures with the sole purpose of eventually sacrificing half of those living things to bring the first sacrificed Ascians back. But there were people who were opposed to that idea. No one who opposed Zodiark had a real plan, though... Except Venat since she knew what the origin of the calamity was and how to interact with Dynamis. She eventually sunders most living beings into 14 so as to dilute the aether enough to allow them to interact with dynamis and stop Meteion.
This isn’t entirely correct. While it’s not explicitly called tempering, Emet-Selch states in Shadowbringers that Zodiark’s influence did affect his followers. The English script refers to it as a tug, but other languages are more specific that it is like tempering.
@@StoutHelm Emet Selch in the line immediately after calls all of that into question by saying he could be lying and that you'd never know. The lopporits show us that original creation magic does not temper.
@@cedertrees2425 Emet doesn’t seem like the kind of guy to be dishonest and suggest right after that he’s not telling the truth. That’s my interpretation anyway. We’ll probably just have to agree to disagree on this one.
His line of work in ancient times put him in a unique position. His people celebrated "returning to the star" as something beautiful. Yet he sees the flipside in his daily work.
"they sense what awaits. Rage in anguish and cower in fear...and it is not beautiful." This contradiction degraded his social connections to his people. He lost sight of the little moments of beauty in a sea of misery, and so, having lost his own answer, he created Meteion to fill the hole, in more ways than one. Meteion became his one social connection, as well as the answer to his question. An answer that led to his repeated doom.
"Tell us why, given life, we are meant to die. Helpless in our cries." This is one of the very first questions ever posed in this game. We don't know what it means or why yet, and the game spent 9 years slowly unravelling that. In the song that tells us Venat's answer, at the very start of this game. the Realm Reborn trailer. The end of an era. Answers, is Venat's answer to the question. Meteion poses it to the people of a utopian star. Their lack of an answer drives them to annihilation. Venat, now Hydaelin, asks us too. The song that drops in that fight is called "your answer". Hope will ever be more than despair's match. A small flicker can be enough. Thus, when we face despair incarnate at the edge of reality, confident in our answer, It's us that go into phase 2, not despair. It's our theme that takes over the soundscape after the phase transition, not hers. Hermes' failure does not rule here. The hope for a better tomorrow of everyone who's had to struggle because if Hermis' folly is what allowed live to endure, to grow strong. To avoid the fate of the utopic society we see at the end of the dead ends.
just thinking that ff14 wouldnt exist if hermes sought a therapist
Badass FFXI intro music #respect
A fellow man of taste.
amazing breakdown. thanks
I commented before watching the video (sorry) but now that i have! This is so good! I love your narration! Thank you for your videos on EW! While I enjoyed a lot I also feel weird about some bits, so! I'm looking for different opinions on the expansion (specifically characters and story) to hopefully change my own.
Long ramble ahead:
Hermes makes me so angry lol The hypocrisy, and just his view on life + reasoning honestly ticked me off! Playing through EW was fun, I was so invested in the themes especially when I got to Elpis bc of my conflicting (and extremely romanticized, i admit) view on life. I get Hermes as a character but I just don't understand! C'mon Hermes! No matter your despair, you should think of others and do your best to not hurt them! Why would you want others to feel the same when you know how much it hurts... He ended up feeling a bit self-centered to me. But! I always overlook how he's almost been pushed to the breaking point when we meet him + he started in paradise, whereas some/most? of us in real life , have a rough start in life where we can only go up from! so hmmm. I feel like his story maybe needed more time and/or could've been presented a bit better. I feel like we could've seen previous (docile, maybe not very useful and y'know not violent) concepts that had been rejected and he had been forced to unmake? So that him defending the ones we do meet in-game feel like "oooohhh he's been through this so much, he doesn't see why it's not a good concept, just that THEY don't think it's 'perfect'" or maybe instead of the ones he unmakes, why not the little axolotl thingies? Because of the one that runs away? It's flawed! Easy! And maybe I'm jealous, that's why I don't understand his reasoning for not wanting to ~go back to star~ We irl can't choose to die peacefully, and I'm hoping painlessly, like they can. But he doesn't agree with that idea so instead (i know i know he's not well at this point) decides to submit everyone to a painful end... Hermes noo! You had a child to wait for!!! Her flower you promised... ; c ; And yet!! It makes sense for him to be the cause of it all bc in Greek mythology, Hermes is a psychopomp! Very nice! But at the same time, despair/depression leading Hermes to bring about the final days feels bad bc I have my pride! As someone who has lived through a pretty rough life, depression, PTSD, and health problems in general, I will always make sure to keep others in mind! If despair takes me, it will be me alone baby! Sorry for the long comment.
TLDR He's written so well, it pisses me off!
Don’t apologize for dropping your thoughts, even if it’s long. I love reading everyone’s responses. And I’m glad you enjoyed this video. I feel the same as you do about him.
I don’t really think he’s wrong.
The galactic self-deletion epidemic wasn’t resolved by EW. We just stopped the song of silence.
The truth is that most of the galaxy’s stars saw a tragic end, many in a loss of meaning. Meteion didn’t do that, Hermes didn’t do that.
He simply came to the same conclusion as Meteion. The two of them being incredibly empathetic to the suffering of others, wanted to end the suffering.
In the toxified star, the end days were truly a blessing.
Song of oblivion*
^^ i agree….sort of
I said this in another comment (might’ve been yours) but yeah, some life is mostly suffering. Would those people prefer to just end it? Some would. But do we as humans have the right to choose to keep going? I think we should.
@@StoutHelm Yeah I agree each individual or at least each star should make that choice for itself.
Its just not impossible to make a case for ending existence, not as impossible as we wish it were.
If only 1 star out of a million had any kind of hope or joy, and the other 9,999,999 stars were just endless rebirth of suffering and misery, and Meteion's decision is either:
A) Let it be, at least some people are happy; or
B) End everything
Its made harder by Meteion moving the goalpost during the story arc. At first she employs global thinking. A false dichotomy that she is certain of, and then at the end shes like, oh wait that was a false dichotomy all along.
So its really hard to say. Its more about, what negative impact on the rest of the universe did ending the song of oblivion cause? Was the song of oblivion more good than bad?
We don't get that answered so we assume that we've made the right choice.
The right choice for Ethyrius. And thats where the story has a gaping hole in it. And honestly it was Hermes' whole point of the ancients deciding what is best.
Death is beautiful and joyous... for the ancients. Ending the song of oblivion is good... for Ethyrius.
For me one of best moments in EW was choosing to be silent during Amons final rant.
It just goes to show the WoL can choose to be all out of sympathy for a three times omnicidal manic.
Some may choose to be sympathetic I chose apathy
That’s the beauty of developing your own head canon for the Warrior.
Any chance we might get a video on Hermes' future self, Fandaniel? Cause while technically the same person, they both feel different.
If the people want it, not opposed to discussing him!
Anyone who actually thought Hermes was one of the most evil characters in the game can't possibly have played the game, much less played through it and paid attention to the story. The only way one could come to that conclusion was if they read a slimmed-down, bare-bones summary of the game that completely lacked nuance and context.
Flawed? Very. Misguided? Sure. But evil? Not even a little.
Exactly.
Oh oh! I wanna play devil's advocate!! I think it's pretty valid to see him as evil! He is selfish in his reasoning and even in his "experiment". I think folks that do see him as evil, also see what he didn't: the consequences of his actions/decisions, when that's his job/responsibility in Elpis (How will this affect the future of the star/how will this affect the other concepts/people etc) Throw in a lot of people's mentality: When someone does something with the knowledge that it IS bad, is when people start to lose sympathy for them and mark them as ~evil~ even if they have their reasons. Not to add his creation AND abandonment of a can't-help-but-feel-the-emotions-of-others-to-the-point-it-drives-them-crazy, child-like bird girly that he supposedly viewed not as a familiar, but a person (but also an experiment) Idk I can see it.
Personally, I view him as a real bad scientist with a curious soul and sweet/empathetic nature BUT beaten down by depression and his circumstance. (i mean we could theorize about nature vs nurture w Amon and Funny Daniel but nah) He's not pure evil imo.
It seems appropriate that the people who name themselves after Greek mythos would hold one of the star's greatest tragedies in their number
If you look at character themes, Hermes is a similar juxtaposition to Graha. Both have a duty and a faith to uphold with hopes that seem to be crushed every step of the way, but where graha remained confident in his faith in the WoL, Hermes fell into his narcissistic trait and, wanting to be proven right at all costs, would make all that he had a duty to pay the ultimate price
Hey, great video. What is the name of the Song playing in the Intro?
It’s the intro for the chains of promathia expansion for Final Fantasy XI. I don’t remember the exact name but if you search the soundtrack for that expansion, it’s the very first track.
@@StoutHelm thanks man, you are awesome :)
@@Marci1989 so are you my friend
I don't agree with choices but his sentiment is a fair and very valid criticism of the arrogance of the Ancients culture and attitude towards other lifeforms
Very fair
I dunno. I don't think I can bring myself to really cast aside what he did. During the entire cutscene where he allowed Meteion get away, all I could think about was the kid that got transformed into a monster only to get stepped on and killed... in front of his father. And then I think about all the people of old Etheirys. All the life extinguished because of him. And all of the, well, despair wrought in the sundered Etheirys. And the despair in the shards. It doesn't really matter what his mindset or intentions were. Meteion sang the song, but Hermes was the one responsible for so many deaths.
Tbh hermes killed the story of ff14 for me, it was probably a time thing ( they couldnt keep u in elpis forever) but what he did felt so nonsensical and rushed.(maybe that was the point) he loves all life until his bird waifus go to some shitty worlds (not every world mind u, just a couple) and then decides to put humanity thru the great filter to see what happens?? Im sorry but emet selch was to good of a villian with excellent motivations for me to look at hermes as anything more than a psychopath and an idiot. Dynamis on the whole felt very forced and bs
Btw I don't know if I'm misinterpreting something, but fandaniel and Amon are the same person. Fandaniel is just a title from the convocation 14
They are. I made the distinction in the video because there are three identities he operates under in the story. Only two souls between Hermes and the sundered Amon.
put Hermes in a hydraulic press, get rid of him
Amazing vid ma-guy!..
Thanks friend!
@@StoutHelm Truly Amazing ma-guy! FFXIV Story/Lore in 1 channel!.. hope there's more to come!..
@@GorillaSki99 we’re not stopping, no way!
@@StoutHelm Sssooooowweeeett!!!!
I fondly remember when they asked the msq writer what her favorite character was and she answered Fandaniel.
halve my fc lost their mind cause absolutely everyone hated Fandaniel pre Endwalker
So many people hate heremes. Im glad someone else sees that heremes is wrong but it came from a place of legitimacy or at least questions that needed answererd. Not necessarily about life but about the ancients. Some of his questions are valid "we create these beings and then judge them?" Etc. But his pain, solitude, and dealing with no one taking him seriously/ no confidence in himself set him down a path that caused the very pain and suffering to all he held dear. It is very tragic and a lot of people just dont see it.
For me his action is bad, but without his doubt in humanity[Ancient], world will reach to perfection and end like Dead Ends zone 3.
in that time no one can answer his question.
Most flawed thing is reports from Meteion. That can make Ancient's mind conflict, because live is flawed that answer conflict their point [to reach perfection].
still... no one have chance to listen full report, that why her character is the most depression.
even Venat after listen some report her mind start to conflict try to find answer like Hermes, but different she not give up to despair. end of her time she finally get it, because tales from future[WoL] is reason to decide and sunder a world let the circle continue, she remains to guide them help them and let humanity in present prove their self. [of cause she have backup plan... abandon star...]
key to make Meteion change her mind is tales of WoL on the source, and 1st shard, that people on still have hope remains even near their end.
and yes, main key to make tales of WoL is Hydaelyn[Venat], and fragments of old world[Ascians, ruins, tales, moon etc.]
in the end answer can find in Etheirys present time after sundered.
That's mean without tragedy of old past we will never find answer for present humanity.
So is worth? Of cause we live in present time, in our PoV this is worth. but yes... without sundered we will never live, no present... and their continue to reach perfection or wait until someone start to question and tragedy again.
To begin, We first must see the end.
But I'm fear, about future.... If time is flat circle and unchangeable.... so.... 8th Calamities can still happen then?
Welp... lets see future then.
In hindsight, putting the most empathetic Ancient in charge of the facility responsible to creating and ending life that doesn't meet their standards wasn't the smartest idea.
They saw all the red flags but conveniently forgot them. Thanks Kairos.
oooo but what is your armor glamour while getting bound by Hermes with Emet-Selch and final Amon death scene?!?
I was so angry at him. His stance of: let us be judged by MY creation, even though I hate it when I have to decide if someone lives or dies.
The sheer audacity of him even after Emet pointed out that the question he asked might have been to difficult for Meteion.
And no: his reason of despair is not an excuse for genocide of millions of people. Wasn’t a good reason for Emet and will never be a good reason for him.
It's still understandable, Just because you disagree doesn't mean you have to dismiss them.
Hermes acting like the rest of his people. He was just as bitter about it too, as the voice actor portrayed. It was more of a "How do you like it?" To Emet-Selch. Or "I'll act like an Elpis overseer should. Wait, me and my people are in the category "life" too. Why should we be exempt?"
Definitely not an excuse, and you're supposed to be angry with him from a story perspective.
Are you under the impression that the story framed Hermes as correct or excused his actions in anyway? Yes they didn't make him a black and white villain but that doesn't translate to "he's excused for what he did."
Believe it or not terrible people are motivated to do terrible things by their own reasoning and often from noble or seemingly harmless intentions. They think they are the hero but the are so flawed as people that they choose the wrong means to an end.
Didn't help that you had the Ancient's cavalier thoughts on their own creation magics feeding into Hermes' own uneasiness with their philosophy to begin with. Folks like Emet-Selch and those that Venat chastised before her transformation highlight that incredibly well.
Is Hermes a villain at all? Without him all life in the universe may have been extinguished. He saw the flaws in the Ancients society and sought a solution. Without his setting up a "determination" and offering his challenge to find meaning in life it's hinted at that the ancient society would go the way of Ra-la. Midgardsomar said that Eorzea was the last hope in the universe. Every other star had succumbed to despair (albeit some may have been hastened to their end by Meteion). Because of his question and challenge Venat was able to forget the people of our star into beating despair and rekidle hope across the universe.
I find Hermes one of the most cutest characters in the game.
You crushing?
Hermes had my sympathy, right up until the point where he decides that everybody else should live, or in this case die, regardless of their feelings. He didn't ask, didn't even question anyone else as to their wishes, or even bother to suggest that they think about the way they were treating their creations, whether sentient or not, as disposable...Or even to find out if there were those that weren't doing so. Instead, he judges the whole of the world, the whole of mankind, and sentences them (and every other living thing in the universe!) to die! That's awfully damned high handed of him, if you ask me. What right does he have to be solo judge, jury and creator of the executioner? What right does he have to determine whether someone else's life is worth living?...That to die is better when there is no point to living in a universe where eventually everyone dies, where even the universe itself has an end? (Nevermind the span of time between then and such an end, or that living in and of itself is the point!) And when they themselves believe it is worth living? And, he's even more cruel to his own creations, banishing them to the edge of the universe instead of letting them...Empaths with the minds of children...come back home to the one place, Etheirys, that ISN'T drowning in despair! What an awful father!
Of course, I'm not all that impressed with Hydaelyn herself. The despair doesn't catch everyone during the final days, but the renegade creations of those who are, take out many of those who didn't succumb. The survivors, well, when they decide to offer their own lives, she lets them, but think about offering the living aether of plants and things in exchange for the ones sacrificed, well, sunder the whole lot of them!
Is that the San'D'Oria theme?
It is!
Good stuff
Thank you friend.
To become evil meaning to remove yourself morally rights and accept the truth that you have reached the conclusion of your expectations. No more hope and dream. That’s why reality is a disappointment to ppl that like Hermes. Do the things nobody care then nobody take you seriously on top of complaining that you’re disturbing them.
Sometimes, ppl cross the line that they don’t even know why and how it’s happened but it is there. Knowing too much but understand so little. It’s a hard life.
Also tales of the Ancients is exactly the thing in the trailer, tales of loss, fire, and faith (which also represent the 3 expansions HW, SB, ShB)
Great observation.
where is it said that fandaniel is tempered by zodiark? the loporrits explicitly state that because of their good creation magics a "being on the scale of zpdiark might tug juust a little bit" so it seems like sorta clear that they weren't actually tempered. they even say that the tempering aspect was intentionally added to the primals by ascians
Right, but Emet-Selch himself states during Shadowbringers that the convocation was under Zodiark’s influence even if it isn’t full on tempering. Emet doesn’t have a history of lying. I covered this in a later video but it probably deserves it’s own because it’s definitely confusing.
@@StoutHelm thats true, i did actually remember that while writing the comment. I guess i sorta ignored it back then via the "hes just lying" aspect but that's true, emet doesnt really lie to us ever. I suppose if anything, it might've been a sort of retcon when they made endwalker but yes its quite odd
It is weird, and I’d chalk it up to the villain lying if Emet hadn’t stated before he’s above deception. He’s also got a proven track record even if he’s a bad dude.
@@StoutHelm i think actually that there was some hints, though this might've been more of a coincidence or fantheory, that hydaelyn had also tempered us, which is why we are immune to tempering, and ifrit asks if we are "claimed by another", but EW states clearly that the blessing of light was a spell purpose made before hydaelyn so its sort of hard to say how luch of EW they had locked down previously