According to the Gracies... Speaking of underestimating, it was Helio who brought a casket to the fight. For someone who didn't think he had a chance, he seemed pretty confident. Have you seen the footage? Helio looks like a ragdoll in that match. No one in their right mind would believe he won.... Get serious son.
The Gracies are a great family and great business men and promotor/entertainers. I trained at the GA back in the 90's and it was a great place to learn. Their style is about self defence if you are attacked on the street... they are not necessarily about winning a gi match.... but more about not getting hit on the ground and either finishing the fight or escaping. They teach the martial art of GJJ..... not the sport so much. They are a very close family.
If we look at the lineage of Gracie Jiu-jitsu we see that actually that it all goes back to Kano who created Judo. Kano originally taught Judo as "Kano Ju-jutsu" and it was thought of as just another branch of Ju-jutsu. The man who taught the Gracies Judo was unaware of the name change and so he called it Ju-jutsu. The Gracies picked it up from there and spelt it as Jiu-jitsu. Hope this helps.
John danaher gives a different explanation. He says that the kodokan had strict rules that forbid prizefighting so he called his style jiu jitsu to separate it from the strict moral rules of the kodokan.
The Gracies have haters. But without them, we would not have MMA today. Rorion created the UFC. It was basically an infomercial for Jiu-Jitsu. Before 1993, everyone thought a fight was 2 guys standing up and striking each other and that the bigger stronger guy will always win. Martial arts have evolved more in the past 20 years than in the previous 500 years.
I thought the same thing. And calling Kato and Kimora Japanese jujitsu fighters, rather than judo practitioners is yet another garacie fed prapagana bit.
lee kesler even if that is true, the Gracie breakdown video of the helio v kimura bout proves they spread incorrect facts or can be flat out wrong (I.E. failing to mention Kimura was A Judoka, not the best Jiu jitsu practitioner in Japan as the Gracies say) not all of them are stubborn about it
That’s what I thought I was like he lost to Kimura.. the gracies told ESPN that he beat the 2 Japanese fighters that’s why ESPN said it. ESPN gif no research.
Gracie Jiu Jitsu is for the streets, but you're right, many BJJ schools now are only focused on sportive competition, and even more are watered down and worthless. The term "real" for martial arts is relative. All martial arts are "real", but not all are effective in the real world. Ground fighting is at the peak because many people learn how to throw punches to a certain degree, but people well-versed in ground fighting are extremely rare.
I respect Helio and his descendants as they brought the art to the rest of the world but to say that they founded the art or that Helio created BJJ is simply inaccurate to say the least. What about Carlos Gracie Sr.? What about Carlson?
Back when I trained at the Gracie academy as a purple belt, I submitted a BJJ black Belt with a modified kesa gatame. He had me show him the move in detail afterward.
that part where they said he fought the two best jiu jitsu fighters and choked them unconscious, he only defeated the first guy kato and lost to the second guy kimura.
2:12 ..... thats a tone of BS!!! Helio choked out the first one but got tossed around and got his arm snapped by the second guy (Kimura). This documentary is making shit up
I believe Maeda taught Carlos. Carlos taught his brothers. Helio being one of them. I don't understand why they're only recognizing Helio in this documentary. Respect and love to the whole Gracie family.
I am as well, and I agree that it's possible. My stance has been while possible, it's not guaranteed. Knowledge is power, and knowing should certainly help, but I wouldn't rely on it as the means to my survival. I would much rather try to defuse and escape before making a decision such as that. I appreciate your standpoint, and I respect it.
"He rendered both of them unconscious with chokeholds"...what? Kimura choked out Helios, then they allowed him to recuperate, Kimura still whooped him after that. Helio was the much taller (longer limbed) fighter, weighed like 15-20lbs lighter than Kimura max. Disgracie propoganda. Gracie's were always getting beat, Fadda Jiujutsu was better.
You guys put something in your heads And for u that's it! In Brazil we called it of owner of your own true, opinions are opinions. But you said it like you was so much wise to judge.
Adriana Lima Who are my guys? You don't look any different from girls i know. Your English translation is a little broken, i can't fully understand you.
Cú Chulainn One of these Valente Bros. just stated Maeda, Carlos and Helio are the only true lineage of the BJJ community. He is implying people like Luis França Filho and Oswaldo Fadda and everyone else are not and anybody who does not give thanks to the three he mentioned are just ungrateful. I think all lineages of BJJ are just as true and be celebrated, since Maeda was the common denominator and can be traced back to him. I have seen some these Valente Bros. videos and the amount of propaganda and cult like behaviour from these guys I personally think is disturbing. Have you ever noticed Helio's line ever acknowledge the sound defeat of 19 of Helio's students to Fadda's? These Valente Bros. seem to believe it was the Gracies who gave BJJ to everyone. They seem to forget, that the rich clientèle of the Gracies were the priority back in Rio. The poor people in the favelas and all kinds were ignored by the Gracies. It was Filho's ideology passed to Fadda, that BJJ was for everybody. This video implying Kimura and downright saying the two top guy(s) from Japan chocked unconscious by Helio is just a wretched lie, that I am sure people who don't fact check probably believe it. Update: The Facebook page of the Valente Bros. replied to the question regarding the challenge where Fadda's students went up against Helio. The reply from the Valente Bros. page was Fadda lost the challenge and don't believe everything you read on the internet. There is no doubt the Valente Bros. drink the Gracie Kool Aid on a daily basis. If Oswaldo's team lost, then why is there no information even mentioned by the Gracies, that the Gracie team won. The Valente Bros. need to read the book by Reila Gracie, who did a lot of research. This includes the acknowledgement of Oswaldo Fadda's team beating Helio.
Brazilian jiu-jitsu (BJJ) was developed after Mitsuyo Maeda brought judo to Brazil in 1914. Maeda agreed to teach the art to Carlos Gracie, son of his friend, Businessman and politician Gastão Gracie. After Carlos learned the art from Maeda, he passed his knowledge to his brothers Oswaldo, Gastão Jr., George, and Hélio. At the time, judo was still often commonly referred to as Kano jiu-jitsu (from its founder Kanō Jigorō), which explains why this derivative of judo is called Bra...from wikipedia
-Submitted and choked unconscious two Japanese Jiu-jitsu fighters.. They showed the legendary Masahiko Kimura...but didn't mention that he outgrappled and broke Helio Gracie's arm in the beginning. Wonder why? 0_o
Hey, I do Judo for the same reason. It works for me. But I'm interested in all MA's and types of fighting, I do a lot of research, and I'm sure from my research that fighting multiple unarmed opponents is very much possible. That's all I've been trying to say.
the point i was trying to make is that the best martial art is the one that teaches you how to defend yourself in all situations weather its on the ground, standing up, defender yourself from weapons, and yes even multiple attackers. that being said if you are faced with a knife or multiple attackers i think it is best to try to talk your way out but sometimes you cant and it doesn't hurt to know how to defend against those things.
I´m sure other people got the joke but were not willing to comment,I´m Brazilian by the way and its a relief that the hot wheather does not keep me from jumping,I love jump kicks.
I agree with you, but I think the adaptation came in the technique vs strength. I think it's more variation in technique than it is actually inventing something that's completely different. Just from my own research and training I've seen different places where "strength-based" applications could be used and how they can be more difficult for those less athletic. I see it as more redesigning the wheel than reinventing it, but I see where you're coming from.
@bnsaints Ive been in three street fights since ive been practicing jiu jitsu, been training jiu jitsu around six-seven years, I won all three fights thanks to jiu jitsu.
My very first comment was basically stating that bjj definitely wasn't the first or the only martial art that teaches you how to deal with opponents on the ground. From most of what i have seen and heard bjj is just ground..... but i will definitely do more research.
You have a right to be skeptical. So was the best MMA coach and former BJJ champion in Serbia, Jovan Manojlovic, when he saw Krav Maga. But when he started training, he changed his mind pretty fast. Now he is also the leader of KM in Serbia. It's not as difficult as you think to fight multiple unarmed opponents. The boxer wasn't surrounded in that fight mainly because he didn't ALLOW it with his movement. There is no need to limit your skill to 1on1 situation, since it's rare these days.
Leaning BJJ and being a beginner all I can say is this, it's not and never about size, it's about what you can do to your opponent. It's a game of chess.
Its not all black and white. Its not just one style only teaches ground and one only teaches standup, a real martial art teaches you about both and more. Many styles practice ground and standing techniques such as karate, traditional jiujitsu, and judo. Also bjj is more or less adapted to competition fighting not street.
Just one thing. I don't think there was much adaptation in Helio's case, more focus shifting. What he did is no different than original Kodokan judo, just focused on the ground, submissions only and preserving all the techniques(leglocks, necklocks, wristlocks etc.). He may have thought that he invented some moves that were already in judo, which he hadn't been exposed to, since Carlos only had 3-5 years of training with Maeda, and that's not really a lot of time to learn everything in judo.
Some of their marketing I don't agree with, but I've seen the results of the techniques first hand, and no other martial art I've ever seen gives me that type of ability in determining the outcome. For a young man with a heart condition, I can't do too many "athletically tense" things. Not to say I'm too weak to fight, but to keep everything in check, the less I have to "strain" so to speak, the better. From my encounters, I've exerted almost no effort to attain my goals.
Well the first thing they teach you in KM is exactly that, to defuse. Run, give your wallet, just walk away form insults etc. When you can't do that that's where the techniques and tactics come in. Thank you for a civilized discussion.
I have been doing it for the past 5 years, i am a purple belt & it has changed my life. But BJJ is by no Means a "Complete" Martial Art. Every Single Martial art has weaknesses. If anything, what MMA has shown is that it has now become the most "Complete Martial Art" available because it stresses the need to strike, grapple and Submit opponents. If BJJ was the most "complete" form of Martial art, one could walk into an octagon TODAY with just BJJ and be a champion or dominate MMA fighters.
Sir Dr. Kano, Jigoro嘉納・冶五郎 took the Samurai侍 battlefeild art of Jujutsu柔術 and changed into the famous world wide sport of Judo柔道. Dr. Kano would introduce the Dogi道義(gi) and the Belt Ranking System to the world. And very important to you and other BJJ was that his student would go to Brazil and teach a young man the art of Judo and he would teach his brother and that would spawn BJJ. Dr. Kano in the last 120 years reshaped the Martial Arts world. Osu
Hal Faulkner is my dads uncle. He left philly and moved to Cali a long time ago. My dad tells me stories when he was living with Hal in Germany. Hal was a sculpture as well as a student of Bruce lee's first student. Their is a cool ass picture on the internet if you Google Hal Faulkner bjj or Hal faulkner with the Gracies. The pic is like 7 Gracies and one white guy who looks like Liam Neeson (Hal). He would run around the block in Germany and Philly with nunchucks. They say he was good with em
I don't understand why people talk so much shit about the Gracies. Call me a fanboy if you want, but it has been proven on multiple occasions that Gracie/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is an effective martial art. I mean, going to the ground in a street fight can be dangerous, because yes, your opponents buddies may kick you in the head. But if you're taken to the ground against your will, what are you gonna do? Just lay there and let the dude pound your face into hamburger? Well, that sure as hell isn't what I'll do. I'm gonna put his ass to sleep with a triangle choke, or roll him over to get into mount position so I can pound his head, or armbar his ass and snap his arm in half. A lot of the Gracies are cocky, I agree with that. But they can back up just about anything they say. My stepdad trains BJJ, and I've done a lot of it too. He originally studied under Steve Hordinski at the Relson Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Academy, who is a third-degree black belt under Relson Gracie. Let me tell you, that dude is fucking nasty, and has done some fucked up shit to people in the street. I know a ton of people, myself included, who have had great experiences with Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. I'll always respect the Gracie family and the art.
LOL 1:58-2:05 "Many opponents venturing into Helio's hell, were likewise broken by the baddest boy from Brazil." Meanwhile, the clip depicts the bout between Masahiko Kimura and Helio Gracie, in which Helio was repeatedly tossed like a rag doll and submitted.
First of all my comment was that many traditional arts teach standup and grappling not just one or the other i never said anything about multiple opponents. I agree some is better than none. but i wouldn't call a ref and rules "real conditions". Karate and Traditional jiujitsu were both battle tested in feudal japan and Okinawa i don't think bjj is.
He may not have really allowed it, but you have to admit that their actions were telegraphed very very hard. I don't believe I'm limited in my GJJ training to 1 on 1 situations, but I know I won't take a gamble on fighting more than 1 guy unless the situation is very prime. I believe you can teach more how to handle the multiple people than you can fight them through psychology and wit. I don't have any intentions of fighting 4 people because I can't be in the moment and check my ego.
You said "real", not "traditional". Grappling and -ground fighting- are two completely different entities, and I think you have one confused with the other. I mentioned the multiple opponents as a pre-emptive measure because so many people try that tactic and it's gotten old. Conditions were different in feudal Japan than today's conditions. The "honor" of a fight was much more complex than it is now. Fights then were almost exhibition in nature because of the unwritten code.
Funny you should mention those things because the Gracie family teaches all of those things in their jiu jitsu. The multiple opponents situations are mostly philosophy and less technique because you simply can't do it with consistency; it's more situational than it is repeatable since your environment is your deciding factor in victory over defeat. Check them out. I think you'll be surprised at what you see.
At least this documentary didn't say BJJ came from India like every other one, to avoid giving credit to Judo. And George Gracie was the baddest Gracie, but he was erased from their history. Rolls Gracie modernized BJJ, but few remember him. Also, Oswaldo Fadda's beat Helio Gracie and taught it to the poor, while Helio catered to the rich.
Now the only real "honor" is fighting one on one instead of your friends jumping in, and not fighting with a weapon. Chivalry has taken a most strange turn over the centuries. As far as "bjj", the Gracies, Helio to be specific, adapted the traditional Japanese jiu jitsu to fit his frame and focus on technique over strength. Since this event transpired, GJJ has went on to prove many things about what self defense really is. I don't think the military would consult them otherwise.
I think any of the experts on here should just go to the Gracie Academy, challenge Rener, Ryron, or Ralek, and post back on your experience. It seems like all you guys out there are experts who have been in all kinds of challenge matches in the Marine Corps, on the street, in your backyard, against Kimbo Slice, etc....If you have so much experience then you should easily defeat those guys.
So I stick by my words of "no martial art is 100% effective" for a multiple opponent situation. One instance is hardly enough to disprove such a claim. It was never said that beating multiple people is IMPOSSIBLE. What was said is that no art of any kind is 100% effective. You'll fail much more often than you do win in a situation such as that regardless of any training you have. It's simply too easy to be overpowered, especially if the attack is planned.
I disagree with a consistency part about multiple opponents scenario. There are arts which teach those things with as much focus and technical study as the Gracies their ground game. Look at Krav Maga Global and Systema Homo Ludens videos for example. It's not a myth, there are techniques and methods which can be used against multiple opponents, not just a philosophical approach.
@2Vfam Hal Faulkner always was about the street fight. the real fight. My dad and uncle respected Hal when he was in Philly. He is my dad's uncle. They tell many stories of Hal beating people up and not backing down from multiple guys. My uncle tells a story about some guys stole all his papers on his paper route and he told Hal. Hal put my uncle in the car and told my uncle to point out the guys who did it. My uncle was so scared of what Hal would do, they drove by and didn't point them out
BJJ come from Japan, and that's a japanese who teached to the gracie. Kimura and Sakuraba teach to that family who was the real boss. I would not leave a comment like that if at least those guys were mentionning japan a little bit more ...
"Of course they change it because of the warm weather of Brazil that does not allowed them to practice jump kicks."And why is that? "They also like to roll on the ground, which is a weakness." Why is that a weakness? "I am a specialist in the matter of martial arts because I studied BOTH Tae Kwon Do and Karate" So if you studied Tae Kwon Do and Karate that are both stand-up fights it means you're a master at martial arts "matter", therefore being an expert in jiu-jitsu. Funny way to think man!
Hal said Steven Segal was getting worked back then. Al Bundy is good and has been doing this for a long time also. Ask the Gracies Hal Faulkner they trained him
But I don't believe that the Gracie family hasn't studied multiple attackers scenarios, but I don't believe even more that they would put their name on a losing bet. While you CAN learn to fight more than one person, odds are that things will go sour badly unless you have a weapon of some sort. I believe the Gracies have proved their point enough through the course of their existence to show their position on the self defense scale, but situational defusion is much more effective in my eyes.
@kanguesso i've been doing it for a year now still white, i feel im getting stronger ( better) by the day. it has completely changed my life too. but yea i see that in MMA bjj alone wont get the job done. but if they have a bit of experience at least they have an idea. all champs have bjj black belts. the thing about bjj that is so good is the point system in has. if u get mount , side control, back, knee on belly, ur not just in good submission position ur also in excellent striking position
It's funny how this documentary doesn't mention Helio's fight with Masahiko Kimura (Judoka). Watch the fight on youtube you'll see Helio get tossed around like a rag doll.
So I keep hearing from GJJ sources. But where is the actual qoute? A stipulation would be enforced within the rules. Therefore, if you want to be technical (1) the match was never stopped due to a 3 minute rule, (2) Helio admits he was unconscious at some point (maybe before 3 minutes), and (3) Kimura was declared the winner. These are the FACTS! Deal with it.
@dothelevi yes and now the kimura is a big part of the BJJ game. when something works, they use it. Thats why GSP takes people down and ground grapples for 5 rounds. Because that way, the odds are on his side so its not a 50 50 chance of getting knocked out by trading punches. and NO martial art can fully prepare you for 4 or 5 guys effectively, even if they claim they can. in that situation, you are better off running or trying to talk your way out.
Why so much trash talking on here? The fact is BJJ revolutionized how fighting is looked at today. What it all comes down to, (like any other martial art), is dedication, discipline, and respect. To all the martial artists out there, Oss.
Well I'm trained in self defence, and any technique can work, but mma is not ideal for self defence, apart from the emphasis on groundwork, there is also multiple opponents, and weapons, so bjj and krav maga for example are both good in their own fields, I don't think for one minute that if I was in a real fight, I would suddenly wish that I was a prize fighter, I would much rather learn techiniques that are proven to be more effective, of course freestyle is the best for sport or street. : )
Any skilled martial artist/street fighter will tell you the ground is not where you want to be. BJJ is great with a one on one attacker with no weapon. Put a knife in the hand of the attacker you will more then likely be stabbed and slashed while grappling on the ground. Also many fights on the streets are not just one on one a friend joins in and if that happens you are screwed on the ground you'll get your face kicked in. But BJJ is a valuable art to know and add on to other fighting arts.
Take away the rules and you'll get eye pokes, groin hits and once you're on the floor, the jiujitsu comes it. MMA is very real, but we don't get to see the full extent of a real fight scenario with the limiting factors. In Pride you can stomp and kick to the head. But the limiting factors in the UFC I guess make for a more interesting and intelligent form of fighting.
But of course a pro fighter has typically more fights, and is more athletic, but they do lack certain moves in mma which do help in self defence situations, e.g. if three people are beating your are on the floor and worse one has a knife, obviously worse case scenario but your chances for survival are higher using krav maga than bjj, fighting is all about circumstances and mma and self defence are totally different in circumstance : )
I love BJJ as much as anyone as i am a 5 year practitioner of the art and am ranked as a purple belt. However, one thing i hate is the Gracie's assumption that BJJ is the most "Complete" form of Martial art as Rorion himself says at the 4:45 mark of the video. BJJ is limited as is every other Martial Art. It has weaknesses like every other Martial art. If your Martial does not focus on punches, kicks, knees, elbows and other aspects of other Martial arts, guess what? THAT'S A WEAKNESS.
There are family stories Hal would not back down from multiple guys in Philly all the time calling people out. Never starting shit but if people were acting like assholes Hal would let them know right away. So many family pictures of him sculpting coins of ex presidents and the first ladies, meeting them. He was also into photography and that is why he was in Germany for a year or two, not to sure what the work was. Hal Trained with the Gracies back in the day. He left most of his fam in Philly
I reread my comment, and I realize I forgot to write "100%" in a space and it was construed as confusing, my apologies there. However, I will disagree on KM being successful on a regular basis against multiple attackers. The variables are just too unpredictable. Yes it's nice to have some training in a situation like that if it were to come to it, but I wouldn't gamble my safety on such things. I've never been a coward in my life, but I wouldn't take on multiple people and risk serious injury.
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I'd love to see a movie made about the Gracie's, ending with title fight of UFC 1.
According to the Gracies... Speaking of underestimating, it was Helio who brought a casket to the fight. For someone who didn't think he had a chance, he seemed pretty confident. Have you seen the footage? Helio looks like a ragdoll in that match. No one in their right mind would believe he won.... Get serious son.
The Gracies are a great family and great business men and promotor/entertainers.
I trained at the GA back in the 90's and it was a great place to learn.
Their style is about self defence if you are attacked on the street... they are not necessarily about winning a gi match.... but more about not getting hit on the ground and either finishing the fight or escaping.
They teach the martial art of GJJ..... not the sport so much.
They are a very close family.
If we look at the lineage of Gracie Jiu-jitsu we see that actually that it all goes back to Kano who created Judo. Kano originally taught Judo as "Kano Ju-jutsu" and it was thought of as just another branch of Ju-jutsu. The man who taught the Gracies Judo was unaware of the name change and so he called it Ju-jutsu. The Gracies picked it up from there and spelt it as Jiu-jitsu. Hope this helps.
John danaher gives a different explanation. He says that the kodokan had strict rules that forbid prizefighting so he called his style jiu jitsu to separate it from the strict moral rules of the kodokan.
The Gracies have haters. But without them, we would not have MMA today. Rorion created the UFC. It was basically an infomercial for Jiu-Jitsu. Before 1993, everyone thought a fight was 2 guys standing up and striking each other and that the bigger stronger guy will always win. Martial arts have evolved more in the past 20 years than in the previous 500 years.
Untrue, freestyle fighting was going on all over before ufc.
The facts are inaccurate. Helio beat Kato and lost to Kimura back in the day. Renders the segment bollocks.
Disgracies strike again..it's really sad, such pathetic prideful people.
Last time I checked ESPN release the video not the grace is so there might be in accuracy on the ESPN side
I thought the same thing. And calling Kato and Kimora Japanese jujitsu fighters, rather than judo practitioners is yet another garacie fed prapagana bit.
lee kesler even if that is true, the Gracie breakdown video of the helio v kimura bout proves they spread incorrect facts or can be flat out wrong (I.E. failing to mention Kimura was A Judoka, not the best Jiu jitsu practitioner in Japan as the Gracies say) not all of them are stubborn about it
That’s what I thought I was like he lost to Kimura.. the gracies told ESPN that he beat the 2 Japanese fighters that’s why ESPN said it. ESPN gif no research.
The fight was actually held in Brazil but you are right. Helio lost to Kimura by Kimura.
He did lose and if I remember correctly Carlos threw in towel...that being said jiu jitsu is an amazing art. And everyone should learn it
The Gracie family have Scottish roots.
Yep, Dan Henderson and Conor Mcgregor also have Scottish ancestry.
Gracie Jiu Jitsu is for the streets, but you're right, many BJJ schools now are only focused on sportive competition, and even more are watered down and worthless. The term "real" for martial arts is relative. All martial arts are "real", but not all are effective in the real world. Ground fighting is at the peak because many people learn how to throw punches to a certain degree, but people well-versed in ground fighting are extremely rare.
I respect Helio and his descendants as they brought the art to the rest of the world but to say that they founded the art or that Helio created BJJ is simply inaccurate to say the least. What about Carlos Gracie Sr.? What about Carlson?
4TimesAsFunky carlos learned judo taught helio and helio turned it into gracie jiu jitsu
bjj = basically just judo
Back when I trained at the Gracie academy as a purple belt, I submitted a BJJ black Belt with a modified kesa gatame. He had me show him the move in detail afterward.
that part where they said he fought the two best jiu jitsu fighters and choked them unconscious, he only defeated the first guy kato and lost to the second guy kimura.
2:12 ..... thats a tone of BS!!! Helio choked out the first one but got tossed around and got his arm snapped by the second guy (Kimura). This documentary is making shit up
I believe Maeda taught Carlos. Carlos taught his brothers. Helio being one of them. I don't understand why they're only recognizing Helio in this documentary. Respect and love to the whole Gracie family.
Wow. Tae Kwon Do, Karate, AND Kung Fu magazines. You must be the greatest martial arts expert in the world today.
We’re can i Watch the rest of this???
I'm pretty sure Helio lost that fight in Japan against Kimura.
I am as well, and I agree that it's possible. My stance has been while possible, it's not guaranteed. Knowledge is power, and knowing should certainly help, but I wouldn't rely on it as the means to my survival. I would much rather try to defuse and escape before making a decision such as that.
I appreciate your standpoint, and I respect it.
Nor the weather keeps you from dancing. You guys are great dancers.
"He rendered both of them unconscious with chokeholds"...what? Kimura choked out Helios, then they allowed him to recuperate, Kimura still whooped him after that. Helio was the much taller (longer limbed) fighter, weighed like 15-20lbs lighter than Kimura max. Disgracie propoganda. Gracie's were always getting beat, Fadda Jiujutsu was better.
U gringos always with a wrong view of things.
Adriana Lima Care to counter?
You guys put something in your heads And for u that's it! In Brazil we called it of owner of your own true, opinions are opinions. But you said it like you was so much wise to judge.
Adriana Lima Who are my guys? You don't look any different from girls i know. Your English translation is a little broken, i can't fully understand you.
Cú Chulainn One of these Valente Bros. just stated Maeda, Carlos and Helio are the only true lineage of the BJJ community. He is implying people like Luis França Filho and Oswaldo Fadda and everyone else are not and anybody who does not give thanks to the three he mentioned are just ungrateful.
I think all lineages of BJJ are just as true and be celebrated, since Maeda was the common denominator and can be traced back to him.
I have seen some these Valente Bros. videos and the amount of propaganda and cult like behaviour from these guys I personally think is disturbing. Have you ever noticed Helio's line ever acknowledge the sound defeat of 19 of Helio's students to Fadda's?
These Valente Bros. seem to believe it was the Gracies who gave BJJ to everyone. They seem to forget, that the rich clientèle of the Gracies were the priority back in Rio. The poor people in the favelas and all kinds were ignored by the Gracies. It was Filho's ideology passed to Fadda, that BJJ was for everybody.
This video implying Kimura and downright saying the two top guy(s) from Japan chocked unconscious by Helio is just a wretched lie, that I am sure people who don't fact check probably believe it.
Update: The Facebook page of the Valente Bros. replied to the question regarding the challenge where Fadda's students went up against Helio. The reply from the Valente Bros. page was Fadda lost the challenge and don't believe everything you read on the internet. There is no doubt the Valente Bros. drink the Gracie Kool Aid on a daily basis.
If Oswaldo's team lost, then why is there no information even mentioned by the Gracies, that the Gracie team won. The Valente Bros. need to read the book by Reila Gracie, who did a lot of research. This includes the acknowledgement of Oswaldo Fadda's team beating Helio.
Brazilian jiu-jitsu (BJJ) was developed after Mitsuyo Maeda brought judo to Brazil in 1914. Maeda agreed to teach the art to Carlos Gracie, son of his friend, Businessman and politician Gastão Gracie. After Carlos learned the art from Maeda, he passed his knowledge to his brothers Oswaldo, Gastão Jr., George, and Hélio. At the time, judo was still often commonly referred to as Kano jiu-jitsu (from its founder Kanō Jigorō), which explains why this derivative of judo is called Bra...from wikipedia
-Submitted and choked unconscious two Japanese Jiu-jitsu fighters..
They showed the legendary Masahiko Kimura...but didn't mention that he outgrappled and broke Helio Gracie's arm in the beginning. Wonder why? 0_o
Hey, I do Judo for the same reason. It works for me. But I'm interested in all MA's and types of fighting, I do a lot of research, and I'm sure from my research that fighting multiple unarmed opponents is very much possible. That's all I've been trying to say.
the point i was trying to make is that the best martial art is the one that teaches you how to defend yourself in all situations weather its on the ground, standing up, defender yourself from weapons, and yes even multiple attackers. that being said if you are faced with a knife or multiple attackers i think it is best to try to talk your way out but sometimes you cant and it doesn't hurt to know how to defend against those things.
I´m sure other people got the joke but were not willing to comment,I´m Brazilian by the way and its a relief that the hot wheather does not keep me from jumping,I love jump kicks.
@bnsaints What fighting form do you study? Just curious. Or whats better than this?
thank u grand master helio grace for introducing brazilian jiu jitsu
I agree with you, but I think the adaptation came in the technique vs strength. I think it's more variation in technique than it is actually inventing something that's completely different. Just from my own research and training I've seen different places where "strength-based" applications could be used and how they can be more difficult for those less athletic.
I see it as more redesigning the wheel than reinventing it, but I see where you're coming from.
@bnsaints Ive been in three street fights since ive been practicing jiu jitsu, been training jiu jitsu around six-seven years, I won all three fights thanks to jiu jitsu.
My very first comment was basically stating that bjj definitely wasn't the first or the only martial art that teaches you how to deal with opponents on the ground. From most of what i have seen and heard bjj is just ground..... but i will definitely do more research.
You have a point about ego, but sometimes it's just not possible to avoid confrontation.
beautiful sport, i just like the no gi better :)
Also I forgot to say they are even better Martial artists/fighters... it all started with them.... its easy to forget this.
You have a right to be skeptical. So was the best MMA coach and former BJJ champion in Serbia, Jovan Manojlovic, when he saw Krav Maga. But when he started training, he changed his mind pretty fast. Now he is also the leader of KM in Serbia. It's not as difficult as you think to fight multiple unarmed opponents. The boxer wasn't surrounded in that fight mainly because he didn't ALLOW it with his movement. There is no need to limit your skill to 1on1 situation, since it's rare these days.
Leaning BJJ and being a beginner all I can say is this, it's not and never about size, it's about what you can do to your opponent.
It's a game of chess.
Agrew
al bundy! he's a highschool football legend, now a BJJ legend
Helio Gracie “had to” have been taller than 5’6”, given several of his sons’ heights. All of the mothers of Helio’s children were shorter than he was.
Its not all black and white. Its not just one style only teaches ground and one only teaches standup, a real martial art teaches you about both and more. Many styles practice ground and standing techniques such as karate, traditional jiujitsu, and judo. Also bjj is more or less adapted to competition fighting not street.
helio lost the fight with kimura, why are they saying he won...?
Just one thing. I don't think there was much adaptation in Helio's case, more focus shifting. What he did is no different than original Kodokan judo, just focused on the ground, submissions only and preserving all the techniques(leglocks, necklocks, wristlocks etc.). He may have thought that he invented some moves that were already in judo, which he hadn't been exposed to, since Carlos only had 3-5 years of training with Maeda, and that's not really a lot of time to learn everything in judo.
Some of their marketing I don't agree with, but I've seen the results of the techniques first hand, and no other martial art I've ever seen gives me that type of ability in determining the outcome. For a young man with a heart condition, I can't do too many "athletically tense" things. Not to say I'm too weak to fight, but to keep everything in check, the less I have to "strain" so to speak, the better. From my encounters, I've exerted almost no effort to attain my goals.
Well the first thing they teach you in KM is exactly that, to defuse. Run, give your wallet, just walk away form insults etc. When you can't do that that's where the techniques and tactics come in. Thank you for a civilized discussion.
DirektorMK xz
I have been doing it for the past 5 years, i am a purple belt & it has changed my life. But BJJ is by no Means a "Complete" Martial Art. Every Single Martial art has weaknesses. If anything, what MMA has shown is that it has now become the most "Complete Martial Art" available because it stresses the need to strike, grapple and Submit opponents. If BJJ was the most "complete" form of Martial art, one could walk into an octagon TODAY with just BJJ and be a champion or dominate MMA fighters.
depends on what type of highly trained aikidoka
Sir
Dr. Kano, Jigoro嘉納・冶五郎 took the Samurai侍 battlefeild art of Jujutsu柔術 and changed into the famous world wide sport of Judo柔道. Dr. Kano would introduce the Dogi道義(gi) and the Belt Ranking System to the world. And very important to you and other BJJ was that his student would go to Brazil and teach a young man the art of Judo and he would teach his brother and that would spawn BJJ. Dr. Kano in the last 120 years reshaped the Martial Arts world. Osu
@OCleftyDude And if 1 guy decides to clinch and take the Striker down, then it wouldnt matter if its 1 or 5 so you're absolutely right
yeah wtf why did they say he won the second fight? the first fight against kato was a submission win but he lost to kimura by a kimura second fight
The real Tekken
Hal Faulkner is my dads uncle. He left philly and moved to Cali a long time ago. My dad tells me stories when he was living with Hal in Germany. Hal was a sculpture as well as a student of Bruce lee's first student. Their is a cool ass picture on the internet if you Google Hal Faulkner bjj or Hal faulkner with the Gracies. The pic is like 7 Gracies and one white guy who looks like Liam Neeson (Hal). He would run around the block in Germany and Philly with nunchucks. They say he was good with em
I don't understand why people talk so much shit about the Gracies. Call me a fanboy if you want, but it has been proven on multiple occasions that Gracie/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is an effective martial art. I mean, going to the ground in a street fight can be dangerous, because yes, your opponents buddies may kick you in the head. But if you're taken to the ground against your will, what are you gonna do? Just lay there and let the dude pound your face into hamburger? Well, that sure as hell isn't what I'll do. I'm gonna put his ass to sleep with a triangle choke, or roll him over to get into mount position so I can pound his head, or armbar his ass and snap his arm in half. A lot of the Gracies are cocky, I agree with that. But they can back up just about anything they say. My stepdad trains BJJ, and I've done a lot of it too. He originally studied under Steve Hordinski at the Relson Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Academy, who is a third-degree black belt under Relson Gracie. Let me tell you, that dude is fucking nasty, and has done some fucked up shit to people in the street. I know a ton of people, myself included, who have had great experiences with Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. I'll always respect the Gracie family and the art.
LOL
1:58-2:05
"Many opponents venturing into Helio's hell, were likewise broken by the baddest boy from Brazil."
Meanwhile, the clip depicts the bout between Masahiko Kimura and Helio Gracie, in which Helio was repeatedly tossed like a rag doll and submitted.
First of all my comment was that many traditional arts teach standup and grappling not just one or the other i never said anything about multiple opponents.
I agree some is better than none. but i wouldn't call a ref and rules "real conditions". Karate and Traditional jiujitsu were both battle tested in feudal japan and Okinawa i don't think bjj is.
Awesome video, great history with bright future
yea just got a bit confused since jujutsu and judo are the exact same thing.
The fight was in Brazil.
i was just about to post the same comment until i noticed yours
He may not have really allowed it, but you have to admit that their actions were telegraphed very very hard.
I don't believe I'm limited in my GJJ training to 1 on 1 situations, but I know I won't take a gamble on fighting more than 1 guy unless the situation is very prime. I believe you can teach more how to handle the multiple people than you can fight them through psychology and wit. I don't have any intentions of fighting 4 people because I can't be in the moment and check my ego.
You said "real", not "traditional". Grappling and -ground fighting- are two completely different entities, and I think you have one confused with the other. I mentioned the multiple opponents as a pre-emptive measure because so many people try that tactic and it's gotten old.
Conditions were different in feudal Japan than today's conditions. The "honor" of a fight was much more complex than it is now. Fights then were almost exhibition in nature because of the unwritten code.
yup got his arm broken by Kimura and he knew he was going to lose going into the fight.
They could make an anime out of this
Funny you should mention those things because the Gracie family teaches all of those things in their jiu jitsu. The multiple opponents situations are mostly philosophy and less technique because you simply can't do it with consistency; it's more situational than it is repeatable since your environment is your deciding factor in victory over defeat.
Check them out. I think you'll be surprised at what you see.
At least this documentary didn't say BJJ came from India like every other one, to avoid giving credit to Judo. And George Gracie was the baddest Gracie, but he was erased from their history. Rolls Gracie modernized BJJ, but few remember him. Also, Oswaldo Fadda's beat Helio Gracie and taught it to the poor, while Helio catered to the rich.
Because it didn't
I wish the speakers on my Mac were louder... :(
@trickstar33 What about AJJ and the 10 planet ju jitsu these forms of BJJ are still fresh and new
those don't look like street fights to me, but i really don't want to get into a second argument right now.
what do they mean he beat the first japenes jj fighter then lost to kimura?
or are they talking bout diferent fight?
Now the only real "honor" is fighting one on one instead of your friends jumping in, and not fighting with a weapon. Chivalry has taken a most strange turn over the centuries.
As far as "bjj", the Gracies, Helio to be specific, adapted the traditional Japanese jiu jitsu to fit his frame and focus on technique over strength. Since this event transpired, GJJ has went on to prove many things about what self defense really is.
I don't think the military would consult them otherwise.
he learned judo not jujutsu which ironically has no ground fighting.
I think any of the experts on here should just go to the Gracie Academy, challenge Rener, Ryron, or Ralek, and post back on your experience. It seems like all you guys out there are experts who have been in all kinds of challenge matches in the Marine Corps, on the street, in your backyard, against Kimbo Slice, etc....If you have so much experience then you should easily defeat those guys.
So I stick by my words of "no martial art is 100% effective" for a multiple opponent situation. One instance is hardly enough to disprove such a claim. It was never said that beating multiple people is IMPOSSIBLE. What was said is that no art of any kind is 100% effective. You'll fail much more often than you do win in a situation such as that regardless of any training you have. It's simply too easy to be overpowered, especially if the attack is planned.
I disagree with a consistency part about multiple opponents scenario. There are arts which teach those things with as much focus and technical study as the Gracies their ground game. Look at Krav Maga Global and Systema Homo Ludens videos for example. It's not a myth, there are techniques and methods which can be used against multiple opponents, not just a philosophical approach.
I beg a differ pride shown both sides of stradegy and action orientated pace and flexible rules sets remember Saku vs Royce
wow we just settled a youtube argument without cursing, insulting each others mothers, or calling each other stupid for having an opinion!! :D
@2Vfam Hal Faulkner always was about the street fight. the real fight. My dad and uncle respected Hal when he was in Philly. He is my dad's uncle. They tell many stories of Hal beating people up and not backing down from multiple guys. My uncle tells a story about some guys stole all his papers on his paper route and he told Hal. Hal put my uncle in the car and told my uncle to point out the guys who did it. My uncle was so scared of what Hal would do, they drove by and didn't point them out
BJJ come from Japan, and that's a japanese who teached to the gracie. Kimura and Sakuraba teach to that family who was the real boss.
I would not leave a comment like that if at least those guys were mentionning japan a little bit more ...
"Of course they change it because of the warm weather of Brazil that does not allowed them to practice jump kicks."And why is that?
"They also like to roll on the ground, which is a weakness." Why is that a weakness?
"I am a specialist in the matter of martial arts because I studied BOTH Tae Kwon Do and Karate" So if you studied Tae Kwon Do and Karate that are both stand-up fights it means you're a master at martial arts "matter", therefore being an expert in jiu-jitsu. Funny way to think man!
Hal said Steven Segal was getting worked back then. Al Bundy is good and has been doing this for a long time also. Ask the Gracies Hal Faulkner they trained him
But I don't believe that the Gracie family hasn't studied multiple attackers scenarios, but I don't believe even more that they would put their name on a losing bet. While you CAN learn to fight more than one person, odds are that things will go sour badly unless you have a weapon of some sort.
I believe the Gracies have proved their point enough through the course of their existence to show their position on the self defense scale, but situational defusion is much more effective in my eyes.
Pressure points.
Jiujitsu save my life
@@joaomontierodasilvajunior4630 🖒
@kanguesso i've been doing it for a year now still white, i feel im getting stronger ( better) by the day. it has completely changed my life too. but yea i see that in MMA bjj alone wont get the job done. but if they have a bit of experience at least they have an idea. all champs have bjj black belts. the thing about bjj that is so good is the point system in has. if u get mount , side control, back, knee on belly, ur not just in good submission position ur also in excellent striking position
It's called Ju Jutsu in Japan.
Inspiring.
It's funny how this documentary doesn't mention Helio's fight with Masahiko Kimura (Judoka). Watch the fight on youtube you'll see Helio get tossed around like a rag doll.
well that's a matter of opinion but that's a better way of putting it
@perrodiamante42 How is BJJ based on Judo when the Gracie's were taught Japanese Jiu Jitsu?
Because it was called Judo when he learned it.
So I keep hearing from GJJ sources. But where is the actual qoute? A stipulation would be enforced within the rules. Therefore, if you want to be technical (1) the match was never stopped due to a 3 minute rule, (2) Helio admits he was unconscious at some point (maybe before 3 minutes), and (3) Kimura was declared the winner. These are the FACTS! Deal with it.
if its a one on one fight
thats like the toughest 90 year old ive ever seen,
LOL @ Dana White in the end :D
your grammar is 100% correct
@dothelevi yes and now the kimura is a big part of the BJJ game. when something works, they use it. Thats why GSP takes people down and ground grapples for 5 rounds. Because that way, the odds are on his side so its not a 50 50 chance of getting knocked out by trading punches. and NO martial art can fully prepare you for 4 or 5 guys effectively, even if they claim they can. in that situation, you are better off running or trying to talk your way out.
Why so much trash talking on here? The fact is BJJ revolutionized how fighting is looked at today. What it all comes down to, (like any other martial art), is dedication, discipline, and respect. To all the martial artists out there, Oss.
Well I'm trained in self defence, and any technique can work, but mma is not ideal for self defence, apart from the emphasis on groundwork, there is also multiple opponents, and weapons, so bjj and krav maga for example are both good in their own fields, I don't think for one minute that if I was in a real fight, I would suddenly wish that I was a prize fighter, I would much rather learn techiniques that are proven to be more effective, of course freestyle is the best for sport or street. : )
Any skilled martial artist/street fighter will tell you the ground is not where you want to be. BJJ is great with a one on one attacker with no weapon. Put a knife in the hand of the attacker you will more then likely be stabbed and slashed while grappling on the ground. Also many fights on the streets are not just one on one a friend joins in and if that happens you are screwed on the ground you'll get your face kicked in. But BJJ is a valuable art to know and add on to other fighting arts.
Take away the rules and you'll get eye pokes, groin hits and once you're on the floor, the jiujitsu comes it. MMA is very real, but we don't get to see the full extent of a real fight scenario with the limiting factors.
In Pride you can stomp and kick to the head. But the limiting factors in the UFC I guess make for a more interesting and intelligent form of fighting.
But of course a pro fighter has typically more fights, and is more athletic, but they do lack certain moves in mma which do help in self defence situations, e.g. if three people are beating your are on the floor and worse one has a knife, obviously worse case scenario but your chances for survival are higher using krav maga than bjj, fighting is all about circumstances and mma and self defence are totally different in circumstance : )
7:22 Whats that on Dana's head?!?!
I love BJJ as much as anyone as i am a 5 year practitioner of the art and am ranked as a purple belt. However, one thing i hate is the Gracie's assumption that BJJ is the most "Complete" form of Martial art as Rorion himself says at the 4:45 mark of the video. BJJ is limited as is every other Martial Art. It has weaknesses like every other Martial art. If your Martial does not focus on punches, kicks, knees, elbows and other aspects of other Martial arts, guess what? THAT'S A WEAKNESS.
There are family stories Hal would not back down from multiple guys in Philly all the time calling people out. Never starting shit but if people were acting like assholes Hal would let them know right away. So many family pictures of him sculpting coins of ex presidents and the first ladies, meeting them. He was also into photography and that is why he was in Germany for a year or two, not to sure what the work was. Hal Trained with the Gracies back in the day. He left most of his fam in Philly
I reread my comment, and I realize I forgot to write "100%" in a space and it was construed as confusing, my apologies there.
However, I will disagree on KM being successful on a regular basis against multiple attackers. The variables are just too unpredictable. Yes it's nice to have some training in a situation like that if it were to come to it, but I wouldn't gamble my safety on such things. I've never been a coward in my life, but I wouldn't take on multiple people and risk serious injury.
amen bro.